Game, which has been defined as the art of “applied charisma,” is by its nature a social act. You can read as many blog posts and books as you like, comment on forums, and bitch with other guys about the sexual marketplace, but real game is played by talking to real girls in real life out in the streets and clubs and bars of the city in which you live.
Because of this inherent social dimension, many guys are keen to go out with other men as they pursue girls. These men are called wings. While using a wing has undeniable benefits in certain situations, if he isn’t carefully selected then the arrangement can be counterproductive and you might even end up losing lays.
Why Use A Wing At All?
Let’s face it, for the newbie and even for the more experienced guy, the idea of going out alone to talk to women can be terrifying. It can also be logistically difficult. In general – at night, at least – women don’t go out alone, but in pairs or small groups. It takes a ballsy man indeed to intercept alone, and even if he does, the problems of extracting his preferred girl are considerable. In the daytime, too, girls are often to be found out shopping with their friends, making a solo approach daunting.
There is also the matter of state, or vibe, or mojo, or whatever you want to call that heightened social competence that makes killing it in the field seem so much easier. If you go out with another guy then chatting with him as you walk around wherever it is you’re looking to pick-up will certainly help get you in the chatty, relaxed mood that is conducive to meeting girls.
But let’s be honest here—the real reason that most men use wings is because of fear. They are simply too afraid to go out alone, particularly at night, let alone walk up to an attractive women and indicate their sexual interest in her.
A wing takes the edge off all of this. It makes the going out itself feel like less of an ordeal and more like a straightforward social occasion, with a few laughs and jokes thrown in along the way.
The Upside Of Using A Wing
As stated, if your wing is proficient in game and even remotely honourable then the benefits of working with him are obvious. He will be there to vibe you with prior to your approaching women and then he will step in to help carry sets, perhaps taking your target’s less attractive friend off your hands for a while, or ideally escalating with his own girl while you are working yours.
He should also help to boost your confidence, picking you up after a rejection. And perhaps most importantly of all, he can help to point out those IOIs (indicators of interest) that you might otherwise have missed while walking around the bar, coffee shop or mall. Many times I’ve benefited when another guy has let me know that a girl I hadn’t even noticed was checking me out. Without his help I might easily have left money on the table.
The Downsides Of Wingmanship
Sadly, though, life is not a movie and things rarely run as smoothly as you might hope. If your chosen wing is a good friend of yours from way back then the relationship is to some extent “set” – if you are the quiet one then it’s going to be very difficult for you to break out of that preconceived role and become an approach machine.
But on the other hand, if you are the confident one and roll into the bar talking to every girl in sight to the exclusion of your friend, then there is a chance he will become resentful and either sabotage sets or disengage from the process entirely.
For these reasons it is sometimes better to find new friends to go out with – wings with whom you have had no prior relationship who you meet up with solely to pull girls. But even then disparities in ability, looks and energy levels can contribute to a fraying of these often delicate alliances.
The Benefits Of Solo Game
The idea of going out alone to talk to women can be pretty scary. However, the inherent problems of wingmanship sometimes mean that there is no other option. Also, consider this – “game” is always played solo. Even when you go out with your most supportive friends, you still have to talk to the woman of your choice on your own, you have to attract her on your own, you have to escalate on your own and you have to lead her to some suitably intimate location on your own.
A wingman might smooth the path, but he can’t cover up for your mistakes nor make you more interesting or charismatic. Those things must come from you alone.
To Wing Or Not To Wing?
Whether to roll with wings or solo is a much-discussed topic on men’s sites, and without doubt there is value in both approaches, provided that in the case of the former your wings are of high quality. I myself have gone out with wings and without and I have been successful in both cases. However, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that going out solo is better.
Why? Well, for a start, I believe it is more efficient. Some of my best lays with some of the cutest girls I’ve ever attracted have been achieved solo. You cut out all of the crap of having to deal with another guy and just go straight for what you want.
In the case of daytime it actually makes more sense to be alone. If you are going to clubs and bars then you have more flexibility. If one venue is rubbish you can then simply leave and go to another. If anyone asks why you are alone then simply say your friends are elsewhere or front up and tell them you are there by yourself. It really doesn’t matter—people are too self-interested to care that much.
The other point is that going out alone and picking up a woman is perhaps one of the most exhilarating things you can do. It will really awaken the hunter-gatherer spirit that lies inert in you.
While I don’t totally discount the value of working with a good wing, particularly when you are new and improving your skills, you should always remember that the best wing you can have, and the one who has your interests most firmly at heart, is you.
If you haven’t tried solo game then I’d encourage you to go out and give it a go. It really is a lot more fun than you might imagine and I suspect you will be surprised by the results.
Read More: 7 Steps to Follow When Your Game Hits a Dry Spell
Being a co-wingman with someone requires:
1. A deep understanding of each others’ game; &
2. A genuine giving-each-other-confidence vibe. 100% genuine. No sneakily trying to make the other feel like shit.
If either of these 2 are missing then you’re far better off alone. IN fact if either of these 2 are missing, don’t fucking bother at all.
I was lucky as hell that back in my early 20s I had a pal who fit the above criteria to a tee.
But I’ve been at the other end of the spectrum. Had a couple who negged me, pulled me up, threw me under the fucking bus (figuratively) and liked (whether openly or secretly) to see me fail.
These guys can go fuck themselves forever, and then another couple of years after that.
Good article
I have a buddy who was a great guy, but his “game” too often consisted of kneecapping me b/c that’s what he thought was funny. It’s not that he was a bad guy, it was that he had zero game and didn’t understand being a team player, and just thought he was being funny.
So he got a Code Red. After that, he got better. If he hadn’t he was *toast*.
I’ve always rolled solo. I can’t imagine having to divert focus and energy away from a target to coordinating with a wing .
You just gotta work up game to handle the 2 set. If both are banagable you gotta work on the 3-some. If only one, then it’s going to take breaking the cockblocker when she’s threatened by your presence and your game taking way her girlfriend.
I’ve just about always gone out solo. I feel a lot more confident and free to do what i want when I’m in the Game on my own than with a wingman that might fuck up my flow.
Agree. Some of my best nights have started out by myself. Not so hard to meet new friends, and chat to girls….
And with a wingman, its easier to be lazy and keep chatting to your buddy. Wheras standing alone at the bar….. you are obvious and exposed, and there is only so long you can nurse that drink before you have to approach.
Depends on the environment.
Clubbing alone can be tough for anyone. But, for example, I have a local bar that’s like a traditional pub during the day and more club-like at night.
It’s easy … in fact perfect … to go alone at say 4pm to have a few beers, read the papers, watch sport – then integrate with the patrons later on.
Full of good quality skirt too
Damn, what happened to Val Kilmer?
The dude was one of the best looking guys in Hollywood back in the day.
Now….fuck.
As a man, one of my worst fears is letting go. Never let this happen men.
Marlon Brando also made that shocking transition.
Brando was too alpha to look good
Marlon Brando in On the Waterfront was a natural. That’s the level I like to be on.
Rumor is he is sick; hes supposedly christian scientist, so he refuses to see a doctor.
He just slacked off, and blew up out of shape…. like Elvis, and Alec Baldwin. Could have been nailing young beaver for decades, but just let himself go.
Makes you respect guys like Dennis Quaid and Hugh Jackman. Keeping themselves in shape pushing well past 40.
Takes a lot of work to stay in shape past 40. Can’t indulge in those weekend booze and KFC binges like back in university days.
Yeah man, he completely fell of the bus. And rolled down an alley.
I’d say the true purpose of a Wingman is to watch your back and look out for you. Maybe you’re drunk and you think a fat ugly chick is hotter than what she really is…that’s where a Wingman could step in..or when a chick is manipulating you and your judgement might be clouded due to wanting some pussy..so a Wingman could help you come to your senses or consult with you before hooking up with some crazy, fat, ugly bitch. A Wingman could also be useful for getting intel on a dame you might be interested in before you try to pursue.
I guess a downside could be if you have a Wingman that’s clingy with the ‘bros before hoes’ mentality and could possibly cock block instead of knowing their cue to leave when your in a good situation for a safe hookup. Or the Wingman could possibly get jealous if you’re able to get women at the snap of a finger and may feel you owe him something.
I see a Wingman more as a somebody that could help you out and has your back in general situations/issues besides just picking up hoes in bars. We shouldn’t rely on another man to help get us laid.
Wingmen are detrimental to getting laid. If the wingman finds the woman you’re gaming attractive, he will always torpedoe you. He’s also a logistical liability if you drove to the venue together.
Disagree. A real friend would not do that.
And in any case, you would have discussed who is targeting who, before you approach.
Agree….. girls manipulating you for drinks or validation is one of the biggest impediments to a good night out on the hunt.
You need a wingman who won’t shoot down your game, is good looking enough to not be a turn-off for any other girls, can keep a girl going with conversation, and who knows when to pull the ripcord at the right time….. ie, when it becomes apparent the girls are just milking for your drinks, and have no intention to give up any beaver, or even a phone number.
And a wingman who is willing to take one for the team.
Having a decent wingman is more essential in Australia, than up here in Asia.
Firstly, girls in Australia (and probably the USA/Canada), would probably judge a guy flying Han Solo as ‘creepy’. They don’t appreciate the balls it takes to do it, and would assume that you are so weird that you simply ‘have no friends’. Although, they would probably respond to the confidence you have….. given a chance, but they are conditioned to seeing guys only in groups, and are so defensive in any case, that they won’t give you that chance.
Secondly, Australia is full to the brim of white-knight heroes, trying to attract easy pussy by instigating a physical confrontation with you for ‘offending’ whatever females you might have approached. Its always good to have backup in a stand-off with some mangina cockblocker.
Lastly, drinking until you pass out is more likely in Australia, because up here in Asia, you would have picked up a girl (or gone for a handcrank massage), long before you get totally hammered. Wheras in Australia, you just keep drinking…., to try to squeeze every last drop of enjoyment out of, what is, a very anti-male pick-up environment. So, you need a wingman to help you off the pavement, and bundle you into a taxi.
My God, what the hell happened to Australia?
Replace Australia with UK and it’s exactly the same
Same thing that is happening to Sweden, Toronto, Califonia, and many other parts of the world.
Masculine values being discarded, in favour of a pro-female amorphous society.
A society where a man, wanting to become a woman, lauded as something great… (And I’m not talking about Buffalo Bill from the Silence of the Lambs).
One should only have a wingman that has either equal amounts of game or better game than you. This is because whenever you out with him, its imperative that he has the game to keep the friend/s of your target occupied while you work your game on your target, in this regard having a wingman is great to ‘divide and conquer’. Another example is if your target girl is alone, you must have a wingman that won’t be sour if you start gaming her 1 on 1, he must also be able to scope out and neutralize possible cockblocks or be able to hunt other girls solo while you’re busy.
If you have a wingman that isn’t as experienced as you or he has significantly less game than you, then he will most likely use ‘crab in the bucket’ tactics e.g. making a fool out of you in front of your target…interrupting you for no reason while you’re hitting it off with a girl…making excuses to not hit on any girls etc,
It happened to me that a friend walked in while I was chatting up a girl over coffee and said out loud “Hey so have you been seeing any girls lately?”
When I turned to see the chick’s reaction I knew it was all over. I tried to play it cool and juggle both conversations but it was clear everything that built up to that point went down the drain.
This was a fellow ROK reader no less. You know who you are 😛
We’re naming names now, Clark?! I know where you work Mr. Daily Planet pencil pusher guy!
And I’m taking Lois out. Yep! You guess it!! This Saturday!
Dig the comedy, but man, wish I knew a fellow ROK reader in my town! The only one is a woman and she’s actually cool (says the usual tropes from “The List” of what we are but has let me give her a dose of red pill reality more than once). Also @disqus_XZROw7mDfr:disqus
Remember: she eats cheeseburgas and orange juice for breakfast 🙂
What town are you in? A bunch of the Chicago land residents spoke up when Matt posted his article. And Clark connected with some Canadians. A friend directed me here and I speak with a few on and off line. Even GOJ has reached out to a few posters. You will have to share where you are from.
Okay – it’s a big enough city to where I could remain anonymous still and always have plausible deniability if it came down to brass tacks. Phoenix.
Lol
You can have my Super sloppy seconds if you want’em.
That Goldschmidt is a boss, mvp candidate.
So that’s what the whole Batman (Red Hood in disguise) vs Superman spat is about. 😛
I’ve got as little as possible to do with Bats. I left that all up to Dick….damn…. No clean way to call it. Guy is a Dick.
You don’t wing with someone who has the same attributes unless if you both have high level game. If that isn’t the case, only wing with people deficient in areas you are strong in and vice versa. I would only wing with men who know how to dance and control the dance floor as that is my weak area. Equally, people wing with me if they want a fire starter and good opener.
To your point on crab in the barrel syndrome, a friend, early twenties, shot my game to shit while I was trying to pick up a nineteen year old. What started as me leading her to a quiet location devolved into school, current events, and picking up candy off the floor. The biggest train wreck of gaming I’ve ever seen. What was the icing on the cake was the wing saying nineteen year old girls are immature. I shook my head and cemented a stronger vetting rule for wingmen since.
Yeah. I used to go out with neighborhood freinds and they mostly embarrased you with antics. Then after college I hung around with former med students who bar hopped with the lab coats and stethescopes. (True!) And I got more tail with the doctors. Girls would fuck you because they’re freinds are going home with the high value guys. It was like peer pressure and you could see it.
Think it’s also worth mentioning that when you (inevitably) get blown up, with a wing you get can get an objective view on what went wrong. For someone with strong game you probably know, but there’s a number of us in a constant learning/improving cycle, and another set of eyes can be a big help
When I was stationed in Europe my friend and I would go from town to town hitting the pubs and talking to all the girls. We had the wingman thing down pat. I’m talking Top Gun. And nobody ended up in a flat spin.
Heck in the mornings we had to find out where the other one ended up because we would end up going home with separate girls and end up on opposites sides of town. That too was full of lols.
A guy should go out solo. It shows confidence and you don’t care what others think. If a woman you try to game throws this shit test about you going alone, simply say so what. You don’t need to hang out with buddies to have fun. You are enjoying the moment and tell her to come with you to another location to join you. Isolate. If not, next.
The point is not to be insecure about going solo. It’s all in your head.
Good article.
I agree with a most of what’s been said. I particularly concur with the part “going out alone and picking up a woman is perhaps one of the most exhilarating things you can do”, a lot of my greatest pulls also have been from rolling solo. And the fact also that whether you’re in a group of wings or not, the very approach is done solo regardless. Most of the time anyway.
Going out solo definitely sharpens your skills more, particularly as it focuses you on the task in hand, pushes you out of your comfort zone, forces you to approach as well as tests your ability to manage your state.
However, I still prefer rolling with good wings. Not from the comfort zone or intimidation factor (I actually like the thrill of adventure rolling out solo in a new environment) but when you have quality guys doing solid work with you, the potential when you combine forces can be phenomenal. Particularly when you roll bottle service style and you are bringing girls back to your table. If your wings are bringing back quality also, you can really have some fun mixing and matching girls. Not to mention throwing a cracking afterparty later. I often just find it’s just a much more fun and crazier night, and often resulting in more than one chick back in your bed at the end of it all.
But, as Troy says, having quality good wings is an absolute essential. Don’t hesitate to ditch a guy if he’s dragging you or your crew down.
That being said, you should always make time to go out solo also as I find it’s much better training for your game as well as being surprisingly fun once you get rolling. And I agree also, the results can be very surprising too.
http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/2-girls.jpg
How many times is ROK gonna use this stock photo?
Wingwoman.
Until you finally get it.
Kratom
I’m seriously considering getting rid of my wing. Not to sound cocky but his lesser looks and lack of style are detrimental to my game. It’s hard to keep a girls friend occupied when you are good looking and dressed well, yet your friend is lacking. Add to the fact that he is “skinny fat” and refuses to workout, yet thinks he is very good looking and deserves nothing but 9’s and up. I would say he is a 6 1/2, thinks he is a 9 yet could be an 8 with a fitness and style upgrade. He often wears some t shirt that says something on it like “Cash is king” or some stupid design. T shirts are fine if you have the body for them, fit nice, and don’t have freaking catch phrases on them.
I’m always having to encourage him to dress better, or exercise, don’t get so drunk etc. He constantly is able to get numbers of attractive girls who then flake him repeatedly until he get frustrated and gives up. At least he claims… but i rarely ever seem him actually get a number. He always says he talked to some girl while i was with another one, or shows me some Instagram pictures of a girl supposedly messaging him but…. never agrees to see him.
He also always guilt’s me into driving together which hurts my chances of a same night score. I have gone out solo a few times recently and find it challenging yet indeed exhilarating. I’m going to start trying it much more and see how it works.This post came at the right time as you can see he is obviously frustrating me and i needed to vent a bit.
Sometimes the coolest guy’s or best friends are just horrible wing men.
rolling solo always works best whole show is good but relevant to this topic starts at 6:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dJP2aCKvb4 or for entire 101 hour check out http://www.4shared.com/file/181502830/69f6ff11/Leykis-2004-05-13_Hr3-101.html brand new leykis 101 on tomorrow 3pm pacific 6pm eastern at blowmeuptom dot com or the app tomanywhere dot com enjoy!
Are you Mike Timpson?
I have been gaming solo almost exclusively for the past couple of years and have realized the best results of my life. Even when I go out with a friend of mine, I usually leave him at the bar when I chat to girls and he does likewise.
I used a wing when I was young and new to the game. It was useful but after a couple of years I was confident enough to just go to the mall and game the girls working in the stores.
I always ride solo. you get to come and go as you please and not worry about anything else or trying to meet up
I’ve seen infinitely better results while rolling solo. There are times when I just get “in the zone” and it seems like I can do no wrong. I honestly haven’t figured out what it is that gets me in the zone, other than that it only happens when I’m out solo. I think part of it is that if I’m out with the boys, the temptation to just chill with my bros is just more attractive than being a jester for doing random chick. But being out solo I’ve got nothing better to do than hit on whoever the best prospect at the bar is.
Let’s face it, everyone’s going to assume your wingman’s your homosexual lover.
Great article. I love this website. Not only for the vast majority of articles but also the posts from it’s readers. Very few trolls come here as its seems people here actually want to help each other out and not just for the sole purpose of getting women. I stay away from most social media now as well as avoiding all those self help charlatan gurus but ROK I feel is getting it right.
I wish ROK was around when I was young when I was getting my advice from sources like Maxim, Askmen and GQ which now I know were just Blue Pill establishments pushing luxury goods and vanity instead of giving useful advice. God bless ROK.
The image you have with the group you’re with or just at the bar yourself is pretty important. And it seems to work best, at least for me, to come across like I’m at the bar to spend time with myself, when I’m really not. It could be that the girls feel less like there’s game going on and more like they’re being hit on for other than just looks and sex.
When I’m out with guys, we come across like we’re there to have gun after finishing some business deal or some project like house repair. So we’re celebrating and blowing off steam. The girls think we’re not there just to scope them. When I’m on my own I’ll often bring a book and notebook. It looks like I’m out of place. (Which is what I want.) They’re a visual tool that tells the girl “I’m taking time from something else to talk to you, so don’t waste my time.” and usually becomes a topic of conversation. And then I just make up some bullshit about why I’m carrying them. In college I’d often bring books to a bar to read/research. And found girls giving me shit tests about them. They fucking opened the conversations with me.
Oh yeah, and we sometimes hang behind groups of girls and listen to their conversations and pick up names and details. Then after awhile we pretend to bump into them and drop names and details. Like: Aren’t you Paula from so. . .so.” And; “you’re a freind of so…so, right?” And normal people’s attention span is such that they forget what they said in conversation in less than 3 minutes (Yeah, I studied it!) So you can come across like a psychic to girls in bars if you watch what you’re doing. Once you’re conversing, just transition to stuff to make you appear high value material.
Over the years, I’ve done both. I’ve had two best buddies in that time that I would go out with, and I can think of a couple times when I was out with either one that they screwed something up for me. They were the types of guys that were your best buddy, but actually didn’t want to see you succeed because otherwise they’d be jealous. I had one girl approach me one night at club that was pretty hot, so I went over to the bar with her and we got drinks and started chatting. My buddy got jealous. She pointed her friend out across the room to my buddy and asked if he was interested in her. (her friend was actually halfway decent). My buddy goes “NO! she’s too fat!!!”. So the girl got pissed, put her drink drown, looked at me and said “some friend you got there”. She walked off and started dancing with another guy. I was so f’in pissed because the girl was pretty damn hot.
To this day, I most often go solo now. I call it “ghosting”. Most girls I have met in bars was when I was alone. Actually being alone gives a girl a chance to say something to you. It gives them the chance to say “Are you by yourself?”. But it works!! It’s an “every dog has his day” kinda thing. Some nights when I go out by myself, nothing happens. Then once in a while, something will happen.
Regardless, I have met more women by myself than when I was with another guy or in a group of guys. And the best thing is…..I can choose what time I want to get to the bar, I can choose which bars, and I can choose when I want to go home. I’m on no one elses time but my own.
:0
I’ve tried the solo game a few times. It’s tough as fuck.
I agree, I do not like using a wingman at all. My best work always has and always will be on my own. The clash of egos will always happen, it is only natural.
Personally I prefer chicks as wingmen, myself and others seem to have a lot better luck with women wrangling in women lol.
Your wing should never be your crutch. You shouldn’t stick to him like a fly on shit because you’re too scared to open girls. He should be somebody you vibe with, someone who helps take you to the next level while you help him out as well.
My best friend, who I’ve known since I was 8, and I slayed in our younger days. Simply put, we worked well as a team, talked each other up, and knew how to have a good time and invite women in. When he got into an LTR, he willingly danced with and distracted the fatties while I chatted up their hot girlfriends (he had perfected the art of land whale kiss avoidance).
On the converse, there was a guy I hung out with for a short period in my early twenties. This dude cockblocked me on multiple occasions, sometimes by butting in on my conversations with hotties, and regularly ditched me, leaving me to find a cab home. I wouldn’t have minded the ditching if we had worked as a team. Needless to say, I dropped him after wasting a few nights out with him. It also helped me up my game and grow some balls. After all, bar hopping in a large city by yourself, especially when you’re new to the game, can be intimidating. I grew some balls during that period and still had some successful nights, despite that dude.
I was just at a college dance club. it is summer so it was under attended. The ratio was pretty equal. Mainly I went there because it was the only bar in town open. Out of maybe 3 dozen people the women were dancing which each other and the guys were just sort of hanging out. No one on the dance floor was trying to hook up. They just sort of danced and looked at their phones. I only saw one woman courting a man to which they later made out and then she ran up the stairs as (I presume) asked her for her number. As the club closed most men left together and most women left together. No even half assed attempts at hooking up.
The Game us 20 somethings learned in the 2000’s is now much different and maybe even outdated. Roosh was right in that nightclub game is dead. People now live in the matrix, an online world. Real human interactions are now outdated.
I don’t even know if Bang has any viability given modern norms. Hook up might now be as simple as “swipe left, swipe right” and “be an asshole”. To think that in my younger days I had to learn this complex Kabuki dance and now it has come down to rule 1) broadband and rule 2) be a dick is pretty funny.
How should you behave if you hate dancing and enter a club where you don’t know anyone, let alone the barmen, bouncers,hired guns etc? The very rare occasions where I did that I couldn’t help but drink a lot in a corner or at the counter (but not speaking to anyone unless they do it first and obv never girls do it) I feel so awkward at such places that I totally stopped going and just go to a bar (also to drink)
Should men who can’t dance go to clubs alone at all?
You can dance at home with your woman))) it’s funny.
Just turn to the nearest people sitting next to you and start bantering. You’ll be amazed at how quick you’ll have “friends”.
Attack together…and separate/isolate pray fast… 🙂 Re-unite post-bang. Drink. Brag. Laugh. Repeat.
;)))