3 Reasons Neil Strauss And Tucker Max Abandoned The Ideas That Made Them Rich And Famous

The news that Neil Strauss has repudiated game (at least for commercial reasons) did not come as a surprise to me. His newest book, The Truth, means that the first post-2000 mass messengers of game and the glorified frat boy lifestyle respectively have been laid to rest. Strauss joins Tucker Max, who capitalized on men’s desire to frat their way through life, in endorsing marriage and fatherhood.

Neil Strauss’ abrupt about-face poses a serious ethical dilemma, as he is now castigating the same ideals he made all his fame and the vast bulk of his money from. Tucker Max, on the other hand, has slid slowly but surely into his current position. In the past, both men failed to ground game and the frat boy lifestyle in wider criticisms of a society increasingly restrictive of masculinity. So when the going got tough, they scattered.

Max faded the fastest, now spending his days taking gay-themed potshots at Roosh and regularly reminding everyone about his over-domestication via photos and tweets:

So for what specific reasons have they left?

1. They can’t make any more money off of it

Alas, Tucker Max couldn’t get the level of work he wanted by writing more frat boy books.

Obviously, Strauss and Max can still make something from their old adventures and work. Their books will keep selling, though at a snail’s pace compared to when they were truly in the public eye. There were only so many more insights and tidbits they could provide to audiences on the themes of game and frat boy lifestyles. Strauss, the better writer, also had the advantage of not tying his work to a particular phase of life like Max, who from the outset typecast his writing in the form of idealizing the university party lifestyle.

Public interest, after a time, will wane, similar to the ebb and flow of the yo-yo crazes of the 1990s or Pokémon after God knows how long. Just because game especially was focused on kinds of male self-improvement, not idle pastimes, doesn’t make its long-term fate any different. In fact, the effort required to cultivate game, against the backdrop of a sanitized but nevertheless ruthless dating environment, is usually a short thrill for users before the hard reality of the new world they’ve entered sets in. Most then return to tricking one’s self about the true nature of many women and denying the mortality of human sexual interest.

If you need proof of this, take a look at the returns of the movie about Tucker Max, one of the biggest box office bombs the year it was released and critically regarded as a pile of radioactive cinematic manure.

2. They were surpassed by others

Roosh and a host of others soon entered the PUA market and undermined Strauss’ dominance of it.

Related to the last reason, the two have additionally faced substantial competition. In the cause of Neil Strauss in particular, a veritable menagerie of writers, program creators and others caused a glut in the PUA market. Some challengers, like Roosh, became household names with strong, dedicated fan bases, while others sold dud information and achieved no real public salience. With so many people sensing the opportunities from writing and disseminating material about these related sub-cultures, people like Neil Strauss and Tucker Max basically ensured their eventual obsolescence.

Max himself had been outflanked by Strauss, whose beta backstory made many men feel like game was more within their reach. The frat boy lifestyle was narrower, while The Game peddled the idea that any nice-guy loser could catapult themselves into being sought after by any woman. Then Strauss, though recognized as the messenger of modern game, became lost amidst the thronging crowd of would-be PUA entrepreneurs. He may be the top dog in game history according to the majority of readers, but this is a far cry from ensuring he would remain equally famous down the years.

This dynamic is all the more apparent when we look at the continued audience Return of Kings is enjoying. Rather than incessantly divorcing game from a self-imploding, disintegrating society, Roosh saw the need to explain to men why game and now Neomasculinity are so indispensable. And beyond their own carnal desires, men also have a responsibility to fight back and save this society from itself.

Strauss and Max were never concerned about these issues, which explains their loss of importance, despite them never fundamentally criticizing the social status quo in a way that risked a massive backlash from SJWs and vested interests.

3. They fell for the same traps they warned men about

All men can say they found “the one” and didn’t settle.

As men age, who’s to say they don’t abandon the ideas and regimens they once staked their lives on? Even professional athletes who retire without significant injury are often fat slobs in only a few years. People like Neil Strauss and Tucker Max are no different just because they practiced game and the “eternal” frat boy lifestyle, not dunks and lay-ups. When they thought about what they would do next in life, did they start to lose the edge they claimed to have developed over the years? It’s a good bet after that they were tempted by the siren calls they had explicitly or implicitly coached men to avoid, such as one-itis or settling down.

Like the amateur PUA who finds a quasi-red pill reality difficult over time, chances are Tucker Max and Neil Strauss felt the pressure of being public spokesmen teaching men about life’s hard truths. Strauss was more upfront about these truths than Max, yet even the latter made it clear enough to his disciples that women want a man who can be the life of the party, bring them constant thrills and a slew of male attributes most have to work hard at or can never attain.

The landing was notably rough for Max, whose written maxims depended on youth and being some sort of natural alpha. Naturalness almost always loses its luster once you’re out of college.

What offers the post-game answers you’re looking for?

Roosh’s Neomasculinity has two major drawcards Strauss and Max always lacked: a basic challenge to the sexual status quo and internal consistency between a man’s single and family life stages.

Roosh’s neomasculinity plugs the gaps that were ever-present in the writings of Neil Strauss and Tucker Max. There is nothing inherently wrong with marriage and fatherhood, provided you’re doing it with the right philosophy, one which asserts your masculinity instead of the status quo trying to strangle it. Game and its offshoots are not diametrically opposed to settling down. What must happen, though, is that the hard truths discussed in game need to be carried over into marriage and fatherhood, along with actionable plans to self-improve and self-actualize.

Strauss and Max’s shift to family life only confuses most men. They smell the hypocrisy of squeezing millions of dollars from disowned lifestyles. How can these men be taken seriously in peddling new philosophies when they spent so many years living radically different ones? Single life and family life may have different priorities, but with neomasculinity you have access to an ideological continuity that is powerful, not just internally consistent.

Maybe one day, perhaps silently, Neil Strauss and Tucker Max will comprehend the errors of their midlife U-turns. If not, how about they return all the money they made from preaching false Gospels? It’s easier to assess and trust the genuineness of men who do that.

Read More: Neil deGrasse Tyson’s 20 Greatest Musings On Love

207 thoughts on “3 Reasons Neil Strauss And Tucker Max Abandoned The Ideas That Made Them Rich And Famous”

    1. Tucker Max never had any balls. He reminded me of a little kid bragging to an adult about doing a wheelie on his bicycle. There is absolutely no substance there and nothing worthy of emulation. His stories weren’t that much different than every single frat guy at a big university. You smile and tell the kid you are interested in his wheelie because he is a kid. But tucker max is an adult. Even at his best he is pretty pathetic.

      1. I was quite envious and still am a bit, so that is why I pedestalized him. But yeah, you are kinda right, it also fots my impresion these days.

  1. Bold article David. Currently reading his latest book and am about half way through it. Smooth writing overall and he clearly was hit hard with his mother issues. The precursor of being a high value man, due to game, shouldn’t be lost to his readers.
    Whether it was beta or not, he clearly felt the fear of being alone and found someone who he could be comfortable with for awhile. This is no different than many men’s fears of performing clown game as performing is best for those who have little issue shaming themselves. The act is bound to get old.
    Neil nor Tucker are big picture men. Neil needed several hands teaching him game and later how to be marriage worthy. Valuable lessons to share but alpha and leader Neil never was. Messenger suits him best. Tucker, well,he comes off as a frat boy and his focus on another man’s tastes make him off as gay. Will still have respect for Neil but neither man was going to be relevant to game for the long haul.

  2. Leftists will accuse people of being homosexual an insult, yet parade the wonders of homosexuality.
    Given a few of Roosh’s recent videos, it is apparent that even he has grown bored with his solution to the problem of lust. Given how clever he has been, it will be interesting to see where Roosh goes from here.

    1. Age comes for all men, and all men come to a crossroads where they see the merge and ultimately, the end of their own time on Earth. Every man asks “Do I want to play at being a boy forever? Do I want to die alone? Or was my father right, and the comfort and tenderness of woman and children will fill a hole in my life?”
      Guys like Hugh Hefner are con artists. Money makes the difference for him. But ultimately, he’s still living in an elaborate fantasy. Most men can’t afford to. Most men must face the reality of life God made for us. We’re born, we become young men who feel immortal, we become graying men who realize this isn’t the case, and then we die. There’s a way to live in happiness in between, and a way to live in misery by chasing shadows that which isn’t real. Our fathers and their fathers, and their fathers before them showed us the way. We either listen, or we don’t. Most of us do.

  3. I don’t remember actually hearing the name of Tucker Max.
    Neil Strauss is an interesting case. I read the Game like half the planet. He was to game what Dan Brown was to the Holy Blood & the Holy Grail / (Rennes Le Chateau mystery): a populariser. He was already an established journalist who somehow fell into the ‘scene’ and saw the potential to mass market it to ordinary (typically thirsty) men, not to mention women keen to gain insight into, condemn (and frustrate the efforts of) evil pick up artists. But if you bear in mind that he came from an already established position as a writer / journalist his exit was always inevitable. The Game as I remember it focussed mainly on his experience of and take on Mystery and the Mystery Method (whatever happened to Mystery – is he a peacocking 50 year old now?). This approach meant he could distance himself from the thing he was writing about (as well as subsequently preaching about). His book is written more as an ethnography of the pick up artist scene, which then doubles as an introduction to and limited instructional manual on how to pick up women. The mystery method and with it Strauss’ approach was always inflexible and timeless – peacock / neg etc – same for everyone. The weakness of his and Mystery’s methods were almost immediately apparent because people, and women too adapt / get wise to cheap tricks, chat up lines and as the article points out these techniques were presented as unchanging and ahistorical, whereas Roosh & the current generation have fully addressed this limitation, and made Game fully adaptive.
    Basically Neil Strauss was a journo / de facto ethnographer of game, who went native, returned to write up his findings, made a tonne of money in the process of engaging with his subject matter, and when it no longer served his purpose fucked off

    1. In that you are right. A reading of the game reveals that Strauss embraced his baldness, lifted a few weights beyond a pencil, upgraded his shabby wardrobe and used his interviewing skills to interview women into bed because he remained dispassionate toward them while making himself seem interesting.

    2. “(whatever happened to Mystery – is he a peacocking 50 year old now?)”
      This is what happened. Whatever people say about Mystery, he still is a genius I think. He dissected the human mating ritual into phases and built a whole industry around it. Up to this day there is much you can learn from him, but men shouldn’t take it too literally and combine it with red pill material like those from Roissy (heartiste) and Rollo Tomassi to prevent becoming some pua clown.

      1. He definitely had some insightful ideas / technique. By the look of things though that’s a former part of his life now – at least we can be grateful he isn’t wearing a papoose in that photo. Presumably this is post-peacocking, but you can still tell some signs that he’s aware of effect, even if he is dressing down: the yellow cap is low-key peacock, the leather bracelets, beads and wrist jewellery are subtle statements, although I wouldn’t have bothered to mention any of it if weren’t for the fact that his nails are painted

        1. all those bracelets may be cool when you are in your early twenties, but later on it doesn’t really radiate masculinity, especially when they have bright colors. A good watch would have been enough. Also that tshirt is not so stylish considering his age. All in all he looks like a fratboy. After 35-40 I would rather dress like James Bond, simple gray or blue suit with a tie. Doesn’t have to be expensive, it’s just a different style.

        2. To be honest, he actually looks better than I would have expected. No, its not that masculine a look for a mature male, but then he doesn’t appear to be in ‘the game’ any more. James Bond is no doubt a good look, but less so when pushing a buggy. Could be a lot better. Could be a lot worse

        3. A musculair man holding his child IS attractive to women. Because that shows he is protecting his progeny. But pushing a buggy? More the look of a beaten dog if you ask me.

        1. He’s not wearing it for you.
          But really, we have no context for this picture.
          For a guy who’s had at least two nervous breakdowns I’m amazed he looks this good.

  4. “Some challengers, like Roosh, became household names…”
    Woah there, don’t know if this was sarcasm but if anyone here seriously thinks Roosh is a household name, you need to step away from the computer for a few weeks.

    1. I was going to be nice and say nothing but his wife. But she looks like she has higher testosterone levels than I do these days

    2. The Jenner-Kardashian family found their niche. They run a very successful carny freak show. Bruce hasn’t officially had his nads clipped. I call Bruce out. Show your faux pigskin pusy. Nope. He still got balls n mandingo. It’s all show. It’s a million dollar gypsy carny freak show. When Bruce gets home the make up comes off and the trailer rumbles and the hooka bowl fires up. That’s what happens when ‘papa marries a gypsy’.

      1. Remember that Black guy, the boyfriend of Kim’s sister? He complained that she ruined their relationship by putting it all on camera. He had agreed to this but then wanted out and broke up, but whenever he called her she talked in front of a camera. Anything about him was still on the screen, because the rocky relationship was the sister’s “story arc” for the season.
        When he overdosed in a whorehouse (classy….) they had broken up, but she then flew to Las Vegas with the whole family, pretending to be oh-so afraid. So they could have scenes in the hospital, with much fake crying. Hospital! Great drama! They are vultures. Disgusting creatures.

  5. I swallowed the Red Pill after entering my second marriage and at my wife’s continuous insistence that I take the lead. Unlike my first wife, she LIKES men and has no desire to be a man.
    I was a Christian who was never into game or fornicating or increasing my notch count. I think I found RoK from a reference in a Dalrock post and I’ve been here ever since. I find Roosh’s growing maturitdy and personal insight and willingness to face the limitations of a hedonistic lifestyle a positive thing that can only benefit RoK.
    The problems being faced by all these pioneers and leaders in PUA and game is a problem caused by technology. The internet!
    It was always so in the publishing world that a man could write a book and never have to reveal a single true fact about himself. He could create a persona and hide behind that persona and preach that persona’s message as long as the public was buying it. Hell, he could make an entire lifetime career out of a single book because no one ever had to see or deal with the man behind the message. His real life could be 180° out of phase with everything his book said and it didnt matter. No one would ever know!
    The same was even true in early movies and later television. It was always about Image and Facade. But with 24-hour cable media we began to see the cracks. The Stars could not maintain their images over time.
    The problem for the Lord’s of Game is the memory of the Internet. Everything you ever said, everything you ever thought, everything you ever did is available for perusal and critique 24/7/365.
    The fact is, the men who brought us Game and PUA are growing up and that growing process is being recorded “LIVE” for all posterity. They themselves are having “Epiphanies” and “Hitting the Wall.” People are noticing the changes and calling it hypocrisy. But it’s only hypocrisy if they DENY they’ve changed and insist it was always thus. Roosh is NOT being hyoocritical when he talks about empty bangs. Max and Neil are.
    The Wall these n men are hitting is a different Wall, their Epiphany a different “realization” than the ones a woman has and hits.
    The masculine epiphany is the realization that he wants his life to Matter. He wants to build something that will outlive him. He wants Significance. He WANTS a family with a lovong wife and caring children and eventually grandchildren. He wants to build something that will take his finite and failing life into the next generation and beyond.
    He wants to live forever. Perhaps THE most primal drive. Whether or not he can is a question for philosophy and religion.
    The internet FORCES us to face these truths because one must reveal his true self in order to gain a following. Print media never had to do that. Pick up a copy of Esquire or Men’s Health today and an issue from ten years ago. They will be almost IDENTICAL. No growth. No change. Their readership is for an AGE GROUP and when you grow beyond that age you stop reading those magazines. RoK is not doing that. I think that’s a good thing.

      1. For my part, didn’t maintain my frame. For her part, childhood molestation and abuse. Very damaged. Might have been able to save it if I’d known Red Pill Truth and hadn’t listened to the feminized Church leaders like Focus on the Family and Gary Smalley, etc.

        1. They trigger your White Knight Protector Instinct. As men we instinctively want to save the damsel in distress. We can’t help ourselves. Women take advantage of this mercilessly.

        2. Cheers. That makes a lot of sense. It’s took me years to listen to that little voice in the back of my head.

  6. Max and Strauss are two dickheads who have morphed into different types of dickheads over time.

  7. Tucker Max knocked up a girlfriend (unplanned pregnancy) and is doing the “honorable” thing and wifing up the mother of his bastard. He had to choose between making child support payments, or being part of his child’s life. Now he should get that vasectomy, and stop acting like he is morally superior to other men who know how to use birth control. In other words, the only reason Max is publishing his book now is because he didn’t use a condom.

  8. Strauss got what he wanted and moved on, and Max was just a dick. Nobody should ever have expected anything different. Ultimately, the purpose of seduction is reproduction. After that, sex is pure recreation.

        1. Actually the original comment is freaking stupid.
          “You learn to succeed by watching failures.”
          How is that working out for all those welfare moms watching the view?
          I learned to swim by watching battle harder Navy Divers. I learn from winners, not losers.

        2. It’s a metaphor . Maybe instead of having your head up your ass you should crack open a book .

        3. It’s stupid whoever you apply it to. I’ve trained with the best, and thats how you become the best.
          “Perfect practice makes perfect.”
          You can tell the caliber of a man by the standards he learns from.

    1. reminds me of douglas adams when he says that the history of learning to fly is the history of man throwing himself at the ground and failing.

        1. You know it’s at times like this that I really wish I’d listened to what my
          mother told me when I was young.

        2. no shit about that…….no matter how many notches you have, and no matter how refined your game is, at a certain point (i’m 57) you start telling yourself to let it go…….it turns into work

        3. I’m not up there yet, but have a few friends around your age. One guy is straight up done with his sex life, says it’s the best decision he’s never had to make.

        4. i’m nowhere near that decision…….i’m just backing gracefully out of the game, and trying to find one woman that’s semi-compatible that i might want to keep around……..admittedly i’ll miss the variety, but i won’t miss putting in the time and effort……..i’m tired

        5. Well, this guy gives up pretty easily and has terrible confidence. I don’t know if this is his decision or if he feels like he has no choice, either way, he seems slightly happier. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Good luck on the hunt.

  9. PUA professors like Strauss and Tucker Max are losers because they needed to rehearse schemes, like bad used-car salesmen, in order to bed down women. And who knows the quality of these women? It’s their words against a reality no one can check.
    An authentic man naturally has game by how he comports himself. A true stud has women approaching him in any public situation.
    More so, any guy in his 20s who can’t score women in situation where there are tons of women and millions of chances of interaction — university setting, nightclub setting — likely has deep-seated character flaws.

    1. Max wasn’t that into rehearsing lines or behavior patterns. He was more spontaneous party type personality. Alcohol plus women were a stimulant to him.

      1. Countless thousands of guys who have attended college or university since the advent of the pill and the sexual revolution of the 1970s have been massive pick-up artists where there have been women and alcohol without needing any salesmen schemes.
        PUA products are like balding remedies and how-to-get-rich flipping real estate sold to losers. These kinds of scams rely upon appealing to someone’s character flaws of sloth and greed — getting something for giving up nothing or less in honest exchange.
        You can be sure that thousands of guys bought PUA books and courses never really picked-up women beyond what they would have done under alike circumstances if they had never read such books, watched such videos and attended such courses.

        1. You sound misinformed. Max goes in the category of gonzo journalist like Hunter Thompson. He wasn’t that analytical. He was just riding a roller coaster and enjoying it.

        2. Max made all his money off one book I Hope They Serve Beer In Hell. His website which is sprinkled with some PUA jargon was just a way to increase visibility for that book. If he ever made any money teaching anybody anything it was just incidental income. He truly doesn’t give a fuck. You can argue IDGAF is a principle of asshole game or clown game. But he saw himself like John Belushi in Animal House. His best seller was written as comedy.

        3. We get it. It seems like you are a fan of Tucker Max, his publicist or his mom.
          If you have a problem, take it up with David Garrett, the guy who wrote the work you are commenting upon.
          Good luck!

        4. “Stop being such a bitch …” ~ fact_comment
          And yet, here you are whining like a bitch demanding someone to stop doing something through the Internet.
          More so, you are acting like a bitch because someone doesn’t have the same preference for stupidity like yourself.
          My words are your strings and you are my little marionette. When I pull your strings, you dance.
          Look at you go! Keep dancing my little bitch marionette!

        5. “Max’s writing is called fratire…” ~ fact_comment
          Aw, my little marionette has come back for more dancing!
          In womanish fashion, you seem to idolize that Tucker guy.
          Watch, likely you won’t control yourself. You’ll be back for more.
          Keep dancing my little bitch marionette!

        6. Sounds like the two of you are having a blast of a discussion here. My head is calculating in light speed how to join this marvelous dxchange in a worthy manner.

        7. “I made objective observations.” ~ fact_comment
          You have revealed to all readers of ROK your sycophantic idol worship of a guy who has written books about his glory days at college.
          So what is it like living vicariously through a book writer’s life rather than manning up and living your own?
          Good luck my idol worshiping bitch marionette. Keep dancing!

        8. Most of his writings are based on what he did after college, which indicates you haven’t read what you claim to understand. I never endorsed anything he wrote, only made observations, which confuses you because you are trapped in your own bipolar value system of either endorsing or rejecting Max. Get off your hamster wheel, you’re not going anywhere.

        9. “Most of his writings are based on what he did after college… ~ fact_comment
          Based on your foregoing comments, perhaps you ought to pick up a pair of knee pads before you attend Tucker’s next book signing.
          Be sure to wipe your chin before someone catches you!

        10. “That’s a very gay male response.” ~ fact_comment
          Yes, your defense of another guy is quite gay. Your worshiping of another guy is quite gay.
          Why is it so important to you to defend Tucker unless you are his gay lover, his mom, his dad, his sibling or dependent upon his paycheck?
          From what deep-seated deficiency do you suffer that you care more about a stranger than yourself.
          You can’t control yourself, can you? Every time you see my words, which you pull your strings, you dance like my little bitch marionette.
          Keep dancing!

        11. Just a question (not that I care or have read their books): fact_comment is posting like one who has read the books. Have you read Max’s or Strauss’ books?

        12. “Just a question (not that I care)…” ~ shadowfashade
          Clearly you care, otherwise you would not have involved yourself. In fact, you care so much so that you expended mental energy to think up what to write and then you had to physically type it.
          Why do you see yourself playing the role of fact_comment’s shining knight riding a white horse?
          Good luck!

        13. It’s called reading comprehension, fool.
          And you have answered my question nicely, thank you.

        14. “That answers my question nicely, thank you.” ~ shadowofashade
          Your saying so doesn’t make it so.
          You must be another toady of Tucker. Otherwise you would have moved onward without comment.
          Did you get thrills wishing you lived the life of Tucker because you lacked the will to do so on your own?
          Good luck!

        15. Actually, I have a slim, fit, and devout non-US Orthodox fiancee who wants a lot of kids (God-willing), and I will derive much pleasure from doing my part to give her that family.
          Bye now.

        16. “Actually, I have a slim, fit, and devout non-US Orthodox fiancee” ~ shadowofashade
          Don’t you know, everyone on the Internet is a former black ops commando, a brain surgeon, venture capitalist and on weekends, a Formula One race driver. Of course everyone on the Internet has one of those fit, slim Orthodox fiancees too.
          Good luck!

        17. “Hey, “Smart Ass” Mac ‘Duh’ Gall: Your dumbness disturbed my Thankgiving nap. ~ Happy Bunny
          It’s always a source of amusement to watch the lesser ones who lack mind control when mere words trigger them into action.
          So controlled, so owned by words — thanks for the amusement!
          Good luck!

        18. You are so controlled, so oned as you keep reading my words. Look at you lose control of yourself, so much so that you feel compelled to post pictures directed toward me.
          Good luck!

        19. “You’re clearly retarded. Moms basement must be fun for you.” ~ CloudYenda
          You have stolen time from yourself so you could beg for my attention, not once but twice. So who is the retarded one?
          Someone is retarded here, but that one isn’t me.
          Good luck!

        20. Lol you don’t have to worship tucker max to see that you’re a keyboard alpha. nobkdy likes tucker max, hell tucker doesn’t like tucker max. That being said, you’re a precious little princess who can’t get her toes stepped on, and your kind really don’t belong amongst the men.

        21. “^gay” ~ CloudYenda
          Well, it’s good that you can announce to the world your sexual preference.
          Now, if you google, you can find all kinds of gay-oriented web sites for you to indulge yourself.
          Good luck!

        22. The first ingredient in picking up women is courage, you can’t get that from a book. If you have courage, someone advising you on technique does give good results.

        23. Is courage the first? Truth likely is. Being truthful about oneself, assessing oneself before trying to impose one’s will upon another during interaction likely is the starting point.

        24. Truth is fairly worlthless in the interaction, in fact you might convince yourself she is out of your league. Actually lying and creativity, are generally more attractive traits in a momentary chat.
          One woman I was trying to pick up kept insisting on asking how many women I had been with. Finally sick of her annoying question I told her “None, but would you like to teach me?” I knew it was a lie and she knew it was a lie but she really liked the idea. So the rest of the night we kept joking about all the things she wanted to teach me(there were even a few perverted drawings on napkins). For some reason the idea appealed to a kink of hers, and I nailed her hard that night. She later admitted that it had been the best night of her life. And it all started with me getting annoyed and making an obvious but creative lie.

        25. “Truth is fairly worlthless [SIC] in the interaction,” ~ Jim Trompe
          Until a man comes to see he isn’t courageous or isn’t hygienic or isn’t interesting or that he doesn’t know how to interact with others, he won’t get far in any interaction.
          Truth comes first — the truth of self-assessment. Skills acquisition comes afterward.
          Rationalizing away truth is why losers can’t score with women and turn to PUA professors.
          Read the comments of others on this blog entry. You can tell they never get any by their rationalizing of their false beliefs.
          Good luck!

        26. You compare Tucker Max to Hunter Thompson? Is this a joke.
          That man child Max with his shallow saccharine journal entries – that were probably ghost written -can’t hold a candle to Hunter Thompson.
          Thompson was an immensely talented author whose writings ,despite their veneer of amusing entertainment , were pregnant with thought provoking insights and indictments on modern society and the nature of humanity.
          They were the product of a man with deep introspection. To imply that Thompson wasnt analytical shows how little you’ve read of his works. He probably forgot more while alive then you will ever know.
          Max on the other hand is poster child of what Thompson despised. A shallow, materialistic, narcissist who changes with the wind in an effort to remain famous and relevant.

        27. I don’t think acid tripping through vegas is all that profound. But I’m not knocking Thompson.

        28. Ummm, that was the worst comeback I’ve seen since third grade. Take 5 and try again timmy

        29. “Ummm, that was the worst comeback I’ve seen since third grade. “ ~ CloudYenda
          The comment was made two months ago. Two months ago!
          And here you are, two months later, responding. Clearly, the “comeback” was so effective that it still controls your mind. It overpowered you and forced you to respond like one who on his knees, grovels.
          Good luck!

        30. So me not checking my replies means it was a good comeback?
          Don’t flatter yourself champ. Dumb needs to be stamped out undefoot, I’m happy to bring the boot to you

        31. I mean, honestly. How does it feel to have your greatest achievement be nothing more than a lunch break amusement for me?
          It’s just so… depressing.
          If you want any help moving out of mom’s basement and getting a job that isn’t delivering pizzas at 35, you let me know. I’ll talk to some people.
          Good luck!

        32. “I’m happy to bring the boot to you” ~ CloudYenda
          That is quite fantasy. Two months have passed.
          You were quick to reply comment-for-comment two months ago. But something suddenly stopped you from replying and persisted for two months?
          Unlike you, I am not going to fantasize why regardless of how enticing it might be to think that maybe your mommy confiscated your cell phone for two months or banned your Internet privileges or maybe she could’t pay your Internet access bill because she was juggling her welfare checks to buy make-up to pick up men.
          Good luck!

        33. “If you want any help moving out of mom’s basement and getting a job that isn’t delivering pizzas at 35, you let me know. I’ll talk to some people. ~ CloudYenda
          And your hallucinations continue.
          Meanwhile, you’re my little marionette and my words are your strings. When I pull, you dance. Look at you go!
          You’re so controlled, so owned.
          Good luck my little marionette!

        34. Your mommy confiscated my cell phone for 2 months. That crazy woman! But what can I say, she has the best “cake” in town if you catch my drift

        35. Yes! dance for me puppet! The more you quote me, the more my power grows. You see, I spent those two months building, creating, producing. You spent them… on RedTube?
          Needless to say, much like the servant who buried the talents instead of putting them to good use, you will be cast out of the world with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

        36. SmackMacDougal Robert Stipp • an hour ago
          “I call you out as a liar” ~ Robert Stipp
          That is quite brave of you as cower behind your LCD shield and toss your keyboard arrows across untold miles.
          “Just because you are a total idiot.” ~ Robert Stipp
          Could someone be a partial idiot? There is an idiot here, but that one isn’t me.
          My words have been your strings. And you, you are my little marionette. When I pull your strings, you dance. Look at you go!
          Keep dancing my little marionette!

        37. Wow, Bobby, you might be suffering an episode. You have followed me from Breitbart to here. And now you’re cutting and pasting from Breitbart and putting those cuts and pastes on an unrelated web site.
          Think about it. Strange.

        38. You refuse to say who you are? Pretty funny that you are going from website to website repeating the same lines. Do you have them all in stacked windows.

        39. “You refuse to say who you are?” ~ Robert Stipp
          Seriously Bobby. Later, much later, when you have been calmed, you might reflect on this time and see the seriousness of your behavior.
          I wish you the best and hope for you and those who love you that you can find help and meaning in your life, and soon.
          Good luck!

        40. SmackMac Dougal. Disclosure: I am neither a member of the Republican Party nor a donor to it.

        41. You know he isnt even American. This guy argued with me for hours about a country he doesnt belong to.

        42. I am not exactly sure. I mentioned Houston, TX. Later the kept stating Your City, Tx. Like he was unaware. What American doesn’t know Houston the 4th Largest City.

        43. What a weird guy that must be. Feel bad for his parents that he lives with.

      2. That always did work. But it is a young mans game. And full of down sides. The term coyote ugly comes to mind. As do hungover and DUIs

  10. David D’Angelo was one also who finally did admit to his fan base that he was settling down when in the past, he never mentioned about relationships.

  11. I have mixed feelings about the mainstreaming of iconic pickup personalities… About 5 years ago I started listening to the Pickup Podcast, which was a very good PUA resource actually. Now it’s called the Art of Charm Podcast, it’s one of the top podcasts on iTunes – they interview very PC self help authors, relationship gurus and even a transvestite once – it wouldn’t be confused for a pickup show. Now they focus on social dynamics skills for entrepreneurs and it’s still a very good show that I listen too loyally although I’m disappointed that they have watered thier content down for the politically correct masses. I feel like I’ve grown up listening to this show and I would also probably be disappointed if the show hadn’t evolved. Public intellectuals are condemned for being closed minded and dogmatic if they don’t change thier message over time, yet when they do change thier message they get called sell outs.

  12. 4. They got older and less tolerant of “the chase”
    At a certain point you’d rather not deal with all the compliance tests and drama and you realize most vaginas are the same. So you start looking for a woman with character. Mind you, you still have to game her, but it’s not as much work.

      1. I think the Muslims share this belief. And I’m not Muslim but I agree with it. If you as a man can take care of many women and the children you give her that why not. That is my dream personally but iys not gunnar be easy. And rightly so.

        1. I actually know a few guys with 2 wives and like 10 kids, and these guys are very happy with their lives.

        2. Jockey, Why don’t you submit an article on this? It’s something most western men know nothing about.

  13. i can’t hate neil because it was sosuave.net, followed by his book ‘the Game’ that got me into this side of the internet. And i’m very thankful for that, would not have ever learned things about the world like i did if i didn’t have all that pua terminology shit to begin with.
    But yeah, all these things had a time and a place, and i’m glad they existed for that place and that time.
    There are still PUA type chops shops. some good, some shit, some with friends of ROK, some not.
    Generally my opinion is that right now its a bit pointless [might still be useful for younger dudes]. Like we can all acknowledge how much clown game works, but i’m not interested in that as much as i am in my mission. Have a mission, side piece is get a woman that you’ve ruthlessly selected for, thats it.
    But yeah they’re both total failures now. I always had the feeling neil was a bitchyesque lesbian in a man’s body, but in 2005 peacocking was the rage and i guess it worked for a time. mostly in west coast metropolitan america but whatever.
    The thing i don’t like is how they have to burn their core audience in order to be ‘redeemed’ and ‘marketable’ to the mainstream again. And while neil can still ghostwrite books, Tucker has absolutely no redeeming skills or abilities that would gain him any value in the real world.

    1. Its just a business for them. There are so many people in the space selling the product they have to find a new way to get published.

      1. yeah but the one rule of business is, never destroy your core audience. they shoved their entire core audience off a boat and got into bed with losers

        1. So now they are writing for the “reformed” player audience. Then they will get divorced and write for the seasoned player version 2.0.

        2. nah i dont think they’ll return. once you burn bridges thats it. this was a last cop out solution of the type to get people on oprah

    2. “But yeah, all these things had a time and a place, and i’m glad they existed for that place and that time”
      When mainstream authors wrote about pua tactics (let’s not forget too that Mystery had his tv show) then ‘gaming’ was out in the open and females became almost immune to tactics, or at least it was much less effective than when these methods were limited to pua forums on the net.
      Add in things like social media and smartphones which essentially has up amped female narcisissm, now every guy who has an ounce of common sense realizes how little women care about men; dating and courting is dead, having been replaced by hook up culture. Why bother trying to strike up a conversation at a cafe with a female full well knowing she could care less if you live or die when instead, one can simply go through a Tinder app and simply get a warm hole to stick his cock into?
      Romance is dead. The latest social technologies really pulled the masks off of women. The only thing that is left, at least is easy means of fornication.

      1. its not dead for everyone. and thank god. the apathy is depressing and not fit to lead any households. I think men who perpetuate this deserve the women they create.

  14. Not to put put myself in the same league as the master pick up artists. In my day “game” was not even a word we used, we had it down to an art, but not the science I see here now. Everyone I knew who figured it out, what most woman really wanted, what usually worked and what failed horribly. We all had that day when the question was not, can I get laid tonight? No that was not so hard anymore. If not tonight, it will be very soon thereafter. When that mystery was gone, we all wanted to know. Is this it, what now?
    Strauss and Max did not ask that question soon enough and now seem to think they lived a delusion and need to reject it. They saw the truth and it scared them. Return of Kings is a place for guys to answer that question before life becomes jaded.
    The goal is to look at the real world and not hate it. I need to love it, accept it, embarce it and win at it. I will know the truth and it will set me free.

  15. Take this with a grain of salt. Does anybody actually think that if Strauss or Max could do it all over again that they would sit on the sidelines during their 20s and 30s and watch alphas get all the action while they groveled for the left overs? They lived their prime years the way they wanted.

  16. The big difference between the ideas of these two and Roosh, as well as neomasculinity, is that they had a bunch of loose ideas regarding specific lifestyle choices while Roosh draws on principles that a man can carry through all stages of his life. There is a big difference between a ten step program and a true set of guiding principles for life. Therein lies the difference. I wouldn’t even go so far as to call what they were doing a philosophy so much as a superficial lifestyle guide. That is why the neomasculine movement is growing and the ‘ten steps to being a drunk asshole lifestyle advice’ industry is fading. Their lifestyle was simply a different phase in millennial ‘never grow up’ movement. The neomasculine movement isn’t about that. I don’t see Roosh and these two being in the same category at all. Just my thoughts.

  17. Neil Strauss and Tucker Max are SMART!
    IT only took them until their 40’s to realize that:
    1) Evertbody gets OLD (and that is perfectly normal.)
    2) People find it creepy when guys in their 40s are still living a PUA/Frat boy lifestyle
    3) Children and family are actually important.
    4) The ideas that made them rich will work against keeping a quality woman around and will not help make her Mother material.
    5) You don’t need to completely abandon your game when you settle down, just adjust it so that you treat your wife the way you would another guy to treat your sister.

    1. “2) People find it creepy when guys in their 40s are still living a PUA/Frat boy lifestyle.”
      What about guys who are in their 40s who are artists, live alone, but fuck their models? Of course these older artists guys would never be going to clubs to meet wimen, but they indeed live a different life, in the sense that they are older, single, and yet still enjoy plugging young tail.

  18. I am not into game either at my age. But Roosh still has a cool website. And he is doing a good job at looking at young man and older man perspectives.
    I have never heard of the other two dudes. There are hints that Roosh is evolving on game as he gets older too.

  19. Aside from all the Game and how to deal with women stuff, which is only one aspect of masculinity, Roosh also brings other topics that are Masculine to the Table, and as the article says, Roosh talks about SJW’s and Feminists so there is a political sense to the website (Unapologetic about it too). I haven’t read Max and I’ve never heard of Strauss, but I stayed away from Max’s Books because it screamed Clown Game all over it, I wanted to become a Man and discipline my Masculinity not become a Party douche Bag in order to get some Hole. The Unapologetic Masculine message ROK has is what makes ROK stand out from the Rest.

    1. “I wanted to become a Man and discipline my Masculinity not become a Party douche Bag in order to get some Hole.”
      Boom goes the dynamite. Great line there. You can cook off 20 hours a week of being a smoke-inhaling/money wasting/brain killing clubster, finally getting a mediocre ‘notch’. Okay, if you’re 22, go for it. I find even reading about that stuff boring at my age. Actually I would advise a 22 year old to avoid that whole shitshow, save money and travel.

      1. “Actually I would advise a 22 year old to avoid that whole shitshow, save money and travel”
        And Boom goes the dynamite from you, good sir. Not playing the game = best of all. Save money and travel to parts of the World not yet infected by the poison of Americanisation. This is becoming increasingly difficult, but it serves any man that he be able to avoid any toxic social settings today.

    2. “I haven’t read Max and I’ve never heard of Strauss, but I stayed away from Max’s Books because it screamed Clown Game all over it, I wanted to become a Man and discipline my Masculinity not become a Party douche Bag in order to get some Hole. The Unapologetic Masculine message ROK has is what makes ROK stand out from the Rest”
      Word! Well said.
      Essentially 97% of game was always ‘clown based’ antics in my opinion. The only game I had read thst made any sense, and it was back in the late 1990’s was something written by a dude named Roy Gordon, and it was called “Outfoxing The Foxes”. Even though the author has a few screws loose and therefore was hated by the shit-for-brains at fastseduction.com (thankfully, the original site and forum now closed) Gordon at least wrote about the hypocricy of female behavior in an era when other PUA types would not only turn a blind eye to female behavior, but also vehemtly confront any man who dared address women’s true nature. Sadly, as a result of Gordon being hated so much (due to his mental unbalance) his astute writings were never really accepted by the seduction community. Instead we saw über clown game by Mystery (who of course had his own TV show) becoming mainstream. Yeah, right… as if I’m going to put on high-heel platform boots, and wear a top hat and paint my fingernails black just so I can plug some second-rate American hairy hole.
      That said, Ray Gordon’s “Outfoxing The Foxes” is now, like all seduction material written back than, outdated and no longer applicable in an era where dating has been replaced by hook-up culture via apps such as Tinder.

  20. Tucker Max always came across as a fraud. I always felt when listening to his interviews and stories, that he was talking about stuff his friends did. Not necessarily stuff he did.
    Im also going to point out those guys were slaying around 2001, long before social media, fake image, and high levels of narcissism due to extreme validation became the norm.
    It was easy in max’s day. There were no 5’s that though they were model 8’s.

    1. I agree. It’s as if their true agenda was to lead men blindly into Game and have them self-destruct.

    2. Indeed. The landscape has changed exponentially since then. I recently listened to Tucker Max try to hang onto whatever he’s got left in a podcast – nothing short of an audio train wreck. That guy has nothing to offer the current community.

  21. ” It’s a good bet after that they were tempted by the siren calls they had explicitly or implicitly coached men to avoid, such as one-itis or settling down.”
    I’ve often wondered if even the most alpha and independent of men ‘settle down’ (read: become some woman’s poodle) because at some point in his life he is scared shit-less about growing old alone.
    Older men who have never gotten married nor settled down (provided they are heterosexual) have my respect, because I do think there is some kind of fear factor associated with aging, and in my opinion it is truly a strong man who can over come that fear and remain single as he gets older.
    That said, it will be interesting to see what path in life Roosh chooses now that he has peaked and is getting on in age.

      1. I’m in my late 40’s, which means I have seen enough lost-all-hope look on many men’s faces as they go through the motions of married life. It’s sad, really. It is very rare today that a man benefits from marriage.
        That said, I will be the first to admit that I tend to be on the more negative end of the spectrum here. But don’t take my word for it. Ask around (but don’t ask anybody from the unicorn chasing politically correct crowd) here is a possible starting point: http://fredoneverything.org/against-marriage-cutting-and-running-and-why-taipei-is-better/
        I’m simply saying that from my perspective, marriage is a very high risk thing to do in the West.

    1. Older men who have married did so for the same reasons men have married and settled down since the time we developed a spoken language, which is to sire children and create a legacy. Older men who “have never gotten married nor settled down” voluntarily remove their entire genetic DNA line from the universe. They’re free to do so, but I’m not really certain how much respect can be accorded to somebody throwing away everything his forefathers have bequeathed him.

      1. I hear ya GOJ, but back in the day of our forefathers men had respect and were not subjegated like they are today. Any man who marries today has voluntatily flushed his life down the toilet. Maybe if said men who do not marry nor have children fight for the united states constitution in our next upcoming civil war they could redeem themselves, because you make a valid point about the sacrifices Anerican men of the past made.

  22. I dunno about max, but i like Strauss.
    I think the issue here is that game works, and it works well, but it really works best on the kind of women you don’t want a long term relationship with. The kinda woman that will be a decent mother to your son doesn’t enjoy game, she actually wants a man who isn’t a peacocking clown, who instead has a good job and reads books.
    Game is great for getting laid, no doubt. But I don’t hold it against Strauss or anyone who wants a saner family life and doesn’t need game anymore.

  23. Neither were particularly alpha, they were just good story-tellers. I read something by Neil recently in his book “The Truth”, and the amount of hand wringing and worrying about what a girl would think, just shows how beta(despite being a successful millionaire) the guy is. Neither has a clue what it is to be ZFG.

  24. neil strauss is a father now…he is married! his priorities has changed! let the man live!

    1. Maybe the time for game has passed for Neil Strauss for whatever reason. Congrats on the mexican model. But he needs to man up and own his past instead of running from it. I’m not convinced there’s anything ethically wrong with game, and it can be argued women are running their own game. But he saw a chance to sell a new book so he took the $. Some publisher put a big fat advance in front of him to tell “the other side of the story”. Too easy.

      1. At the same time, Roosh isn’t as dissimilar as the article would have you believe. It wasn’t that long ago he was advising the same kind of lifestyle, before slowly merging into Neomasculinity, which has it’s own share of problems.
        I haven’t been following Strauss much since The Game, and even at the end of that you could guess where he was headed, so I could be wrong, but didn’t he essentially do the same thing that Roosh did? Change his mind on the whole marriage deal, then use that momentum to put forward a new product? The only main difference I can see is that Neil burned his audience, Roosh is playing to a slightly wider one, and while he’s still closer to his fame/relevance.

  25. Why is this a shock? The PUA/frat boy lifestyle is as fake as the propaganda that feminists use to justify their cock carousel riding days. None of it is sustainable or conducive to a healthy society. Reality catches up to everyone sooner or later.

    1. There have always been men who were confirmed bachelors. They didn’t try to commercialize on it. There’s nothing really original in the lifestyle.

  26. Tucker Max rhymes with Goldman Sax
    i gots my fiat cash from ben bernake,
    gettin’ my dinner from the herb beta,
    texting GBFM for a midnight spank me,
    i don’t butthex, but i’m no playa hata

  27. The issue with them is that they never fully took the red pill, especially Strauss. So they’re just letting themselves be jerked this way and that, without being honest to themselves or their readers.

    1. It’s funny you say that as in The Truth there are a few times the Red Pill rears its head.
      Neil spends almost two years in sexual therapy where he encounters a pivotal therapist who admits many of their sexual terms to classify addicts might be quackery. What is the reward this therapist receives? A reprimanding by one of the other therapists whose chief statement is all sexual addicts are sexual objectifiers and rapists. By disagreeing with this viewpoint the best therapist in his life, is shoved into a desk position and may have likely lost her job.
      The many women Neil runs through and dates either claim they were raped by their first boyfriends or had some abandonment issues. In fact, the woman he marries would not have been marriage worthy until she herself received therapy. So as good as that woman was to him, her childhood trauma made her unworthy for a ring. Yet he tries to say love heals all. Love couldn’t heal anything if he weren’t a millionaire who could pay the best therapists, NLP practitioners, PUA coaches, and have an open ended lifestyle to suggest fun to get and win women. In other words, he had ways to create an ideal, past, present, and future, things clearly ravaged by a society that freed men and women to choose when and where to dissolve their unions.
      Even if he slept with thousands, admitted all the people he slept with had inner child issues, and spits in the face of how he ‘abused’ and ‘used’ women, it was a cycle that money needed to destroy or he would be swimming in the same dung we all are. He admits the coaches in all aspects have helped him and comes up with several terms for love, which can be useful, but pinning the blame on himself when it took a team to change him, is all the more reason the ‘red pill’ should have been addressed, but it won’t. Women and betas want the happily ever after after all, so being lazy and avoiding the real issue is per the course.
      Tucker is not worth me writing his name on toilet paper before I wipe my ass so he, while he may have an audience, never had an appeal with me. His observations on you are still quite gay.
      Keep heading in the direction you are Roosh. For those of us without Millions to throw at our solution these resources are a life saver. Hopefully, the truth you’re uncovering has been as enriching for your life as it has been for me as a follower this past year.

  28. Now he has a wife? Man, that chick has a friggin horse face.
    I think all that showed that Tucker Max was only trying to manipulate his audience from the very beginning. Waste of money. I knew better than to buy his second book.
    The writers on this website seem to be a bit more more worth listening to, despite the occasional falsehood here and there.

  29. You nailed it when you mentioned to just follow the money. Tucker Max’s shit hurt to read. Their song & dance is like a rock band reunion tour, just taking place to scrape up some cash to get by on. What pussies.

  30. Other than the failed introduction, it’s a good article.
    By the way, why did this Tucker settle for a she-male after all that time? Is it getting THAT bad in the States nowadays?

    1. Yeah. A famous, rich pua whose JOB is seduction still has to settle for an aged man-bitch. It really is THAT bad.

  31. I’m withholding judgement on these two. They are 5 (Max) and 10 (Strauss) years older than Roosh. We have seen Roosh’s perspective change a lot over time, especially the last year or so, so who knows where he’ll stand five or ten years from now. He might be married. He could end up like these guys.

  32. All fine and well. I wonder at the current schism taking place in the manosphere right now. While Tucker and Strauss are has beens, and rightly criticized for hypocrisy, I’m finding a lot of criticism directed at Roosh from Tomassi and his followers these days. Not entirely certain that I understand the criticism to any large extent, except insofar as I hear people say “cashing in” and “money”. That really doesn’t seem to stick with me for some reason. Expanding the realm of the manosphere beyond simple pussy begging seems to be exactly where this movement needs to go to continue to have momentum in the future. In fact, going Red Pill one can NOT be apolitical for very long if one applies all of the aspects of seeing things fully to real life and not just on chicks alone.
    Even Tomassi is starting to see this creep into his writings, despite his protests of being apolitical in content on his site. It simply cannot be helped. A hard grounding in using your mind and senses will necessarily lead a man away from an emotion based view of the world, which is Leftism. While one can bicker about what flavor of Right/Libertarianism one indulges in, it’s clear that one cannot be a full blown Leftist and red pill at the same time, they are completely contradictory ways of approaching life. The moment you come to see Red Pill as valid is the moment you start nodding your head against Feminism, which then leads directly to finding SJW’s to be horrible agenda ridden trolls, which then leads to the realization that this is Leftism laid bare.
    I’m not sucking up here, I simply appreciate that Red Pill has to have a political aspect to it, as well as needs to not only advise “personal growth” but also help lay the path for the resurgence of masculine traits. No offense to Rollo, I love his work and his abiding intellect, but end of the day you can’t ignore politics and virtue even if you wanted to.

  33. The extreme PUA types almost always burn out and do the 180. It’s not a sustainable lifestyle for very long. I’m in no way interested in being monogamous with 1 woman for life, however I’m not in denial about our want to pair bond. I have dated some great girls and did create a solid connection with many of them, all the while enjoying some sexual variety. That’s the type of lifestyle that keeps me sane and prevents me from hating on the girls too much. You just have to stay rooted in realism about things like hypergamy and be vigilant for overly dominant women.
    I’m guessing neither Tucker nor Neil went into their marriages and fatherhood with the appropriate precautions. I’d be curious to see if either got an enforceable prenup, but I tend to doubt it. Neil’s woman conned him into sex addiction therapy after getting busted cheating on her once. Guess he never totally “killed the beta” as Rollo would say.

  34. Somehow I don’t think that Neil Strauss can be compared to Tucker Max in this case.
    Tucker Max essentially denounced Game and became Blue Pill. Neill Strauss just stuck to his old Game-style, became a sex-addict for a while and then later married. Paul Janka did the same.
    A wolf getting married does not mean that the wolf does not eat occasionally on the side and women who marry men with Game know that alright (or they should).
    Neill Strauss’ recent book was biographical again and he was never an author that tried to teach readers about Game. Roosh and Krauser have delved into that like a few others, but Strauss has been more a conventional writer who happened to learn Game and used it mostly for his own fun (as most guys should do).
    We have no idea whether he is Blue Pill. Getting married itself does not make you that. Also Strauss’s Game adventures may not be over as there can be a post-divorce stage or married-man Game style book in the future. As far as Tucker Max is concerned – yes – it’s done and over – he has betrayed all Red Pill values and returned to the Borg collective.
    I might also add that Strauss was clearly sex-addicted and most solid PUAs probably are not – there is a distinction in that. One can go for 1-2 weeks pursuing girls via Game while the other does everything to satiate that desire – masturbation, hookers, fat ugly girls etc.
    And finally – if neomasculine men don’t have children, then do we leave reproduction to 3rd world migrants, single mothers and Blue Pill chodes?
    Of course the media will spin Strauss’ story along the same lines as Tucker Max, but the truth is – one still has his Red Pill balls attached, while the other is a lost cause.

  35. Lol now I know that Roosh is the guy who is cutting the checks on this blog but the writers on here have to try just a liiiiittle bit harder to shake themselves loose from his nuts… Though I don’t completely disagree with Mr. Garrett’s assessment of the current state of Game’s new testament proselytizers, I do think that this blog/forum should attempt to be more than just a temple to glorify and sanctify one man. It ruins all credibility of any useful information which might be disseminated that this website may have to offer.

  36. Is sex addiction even real? I don’t think the medical community agrees on it. Most insurance policies don’t cover therapy for sex addiction. It feels like a cop out, like don’t blame the person blame the disease. That sends bullshit indicators peaking into the red with Strauss.

    1. No. Most “addictions” these days are little more than cover for “being an asshole”. Sex addiction = Dude gets laid a lot and tries to excuse his poor choices and actions with “addiction!”. Same with almost all other addictions, outside of the proven chemical addictions that we’ve already known about for a while (Heroine, etc).

  37. I read The Truth. I don’t know that it was necessarily anti-game. Even in his interviews, Neil is careful to separate criticizing specific behavior with criticizing the entire movement with a broad brush.
    The book, in a nutshell, says that your romantic and sexual relationships should be authentic to who you are or else they’ll lead to unhappiness.
    It’s more an evolution of Game for an older man rather than a repudiation. Not that much different than Roosh’s musings of late.

    1. One thing that bothered me about The Truth was that Strauss seemed to have no close male friends. The book and his whole foray into alternative sexual lifestyles seemed to take for granted the idea that the only way for a man to be emotionally healthy was to have intimacy with a woman. Nothing was mentioned about the strength, depth and longevity that male friendships can have.

  38. I wonder if they just got old. I’m 46 and can vouchsafe that at some point almost all men discover that chasing the almighty poon gets old. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll still chase women until my last breath…its just that it will be done slowly as opposed to the rpg style a young man needs. Could it be that Tucker and Neil just got burnt out? Even Roosh needs more than the bang and he’s only 36.

  39. There’s no doubt that the constant plate spinning and non-commitment can get old as you get older. There are only a few things that all guys should start doing and continue to do:
    1. Do what THEY want, not what society tells them.
    2. Quit just telling every woman they are hot, even when they’re not
    3. Don’t act like women are god’s gift to men. Respect yourself.
    4. Take up for men’s rights and don’t allow discrimination against men.
    5. Have healthy boundaries you have decided to not allow women to cross and don’t apologize for sticking to them.
    6. Treat others as you would want to be treated.
    7. Continuously work to better yourself.
    As long as these guys do those things… they will be quality guys.

  40. Is it just me or does Tucker’s wife look like an over the hill, carousel rider with slut face who’s checking the husband and kid box?

    1. No, but it does seem like you’re trying really, really hard to be wordplay clever.
      maybe he found what he was looking for. He had a damn good run, found someone tolerable and had a kid. from the little you can pull from his family photo, he digs being a dad.
      Seems to me he’s doing exactly what the fuck he wants to do.

  41. At the same time, Neil has been pivoting away from game towards more overall self-development for years. I remember reading Emergency in 2009 and it was pretty clear there he had moved on from his interest in notch-count and more towards practical life skills.
    It’s adorable that Roosh thinks he’s surpassed. Sales ranks and conference attendance numbers don’t lie

  42. RoK isn’t perfect but it really has been quite helpful to me the past 2 years. I was heavily transformed circa 1999 by early PUA gurus like David Copeland and Ron Louis. At that point I was destroyed by a self-inflicted heroin addiction and had ruined a very good career. I had driven away the main women in my life. I had to regroup, clean up and take control again. The PUA books and early web forums(like the classic alt.Yahoo newsgroups) really helped me totally rebuild myself. But as I got into my 30’s I developed a borderline sex addiction and then made the Beta mistake of “oneitis” based on sex. The past two years, after I dumped my nagging wet blanket, I have also been far more involved in Conservative politics(which was my first love back in school before the drug sidetrack). I really respect how Roosh has been the first PUA type teacher to really show the bigger societal picture.

  43. I learned game the hard way, failing miserably at my love life in my early to mid 20’s. Finding and learning game gave me a pathway to not only understanding more about myself and the world, but the self confidence to do many other things then just pick up women. (I’ll be honest when I was learning game though my main motivation was finally to get good quality women).
    Now a decade and a few years more I am more aware of the philosophy that is around the red pill and it has helped shape not only me as a person, but my profession, and the course of my career. Plus it has helped me find a very compatible LTR.
    Since I do desire children and am getting close to 40 I am contemplating marriage. As the article says, there is nothing wrong with this. But, if this is your goal, (and fine by me if it is not a man’s goal) then you need to approach it with the proper mindset. You are not settling down or checking out of the game, you are merely changing up how you must play it.

  44. Neil Strauss? I bought “the game” (in Dutch even) I read it and hated it. During reading it I thought by myself “why did I bought this stupid book with all that profanity in it?” Not that I dislike some swearing, but this book was just a joke to read. All the time I saw this image in my mind of this weak man that pedestalized some transformed nerds and they all lived in some big house where they would fuck cheap sluts they attracted with acting like entertainers/clowns. The whole book was not about becoming a man, developing frame, which is attractive for women, it was about having sex so they could feel like men. Is that wrong? Well, in the end their selfworth was defined by women. The book simply was not about quality women, the women who are loyal, have a good upbringing and can be the mother of your children. The book also was focused on nightgame, whereas you have more chance meeting a good woman in a normal setting, like trough friends, but that’s my own opinion.
    I too was using techniques from Mystery Method. The openers, the bodylanguage stuff, the tracking of the phase you’re in and stuff like that. It’s not that bad, but that stuff should grow on you by: maturing as a man. After 30, how much do you really care about the right way to place your feet when opening a “set”. The jargon was also pretty crazy. And the peacocking, well, let’s not go into that carnaval.
    It’s a good thing the red pill also focuses on game, but in a more mature way. Nowadays there are so much good blogs around that approach the whole datinggame from a semi-scientific perspective. That’s more appealing than the clownlike PUA scene. Masculinity doesn’t need a magicians hat

  45. here are my thoughts on them both: they were both corny dudes who placed women as the primary objective in life, and even after all of their success, still see women as their primary objective in life. in short they were pigs in a wig. still suckers dressed up as a man’s man.

  46. I’m hoping the title of this article will draw the legendary GBFM out of the woodwork and grace us with his presence in the comments

  47. There is so much PUA information (or bullshit, as you like) that it is overwhelming. Hell, go to a torrent site and you can find dozens of gigabytes of books, videos, audio books and even a season of “The Pick Up Artist”, featuring Mystery (and how he gets laid is definitely a mystery). Perhaps there is still money to be made from desperate men, but there is so much high quality information available on ROK and related sites, why would you lay out hundreds of dollars for a “bootcamp”?

  48. I think the moral of the story is that no matter how alpha a man may be he is still never 100% immune to being ensnared by a manipulative woman(Julius Caesar, Mark Antony, Tucker Max ect)
    P.s. That smug expression on Mrs Max’s face is priceless

  49. It’s great that guys like Neil brought the self-actualization movement in game more into the public eye. Otherwise many guys probably wouldn’t have found out about it unless by doing some digging on the internet. We are always constantly evolving so it’s great that others are contributing and further improving and expanding the movement, like Roosh.
    It’s interesting to see guys like Neil and Tucker settling down. They have their reasons or different philosophies. I don’t plan on settling down anytime soon or living in a life of monogamy. It’s more fun and fulfilling to have freedom and choice.

  50. 3 Reasons David Garrett Will Never Be Happy
    As demonstrated in reasons 1 and 2 of his article on Strauss and Max, Garrett values money and fame over partnership and love. Mr. Garrett, Max and Strauss found people, do you plan on being alone forever?
    Well, that’s a horrible idea (although the most probable outcome anyway since you are clearly a disgusting human being). And that is why you will never be happy.
    1. Reason 1 obviously demonstrates a wish for financial success, unfortunately for you dear, the annual income of a married man is 1.5 times that of a never married man. [Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2014]
    2. Garrett’s second reason demonstrates a need for attention. Given the lowbrow nature of this article I can’t imagine he’ll ever be noteworthy and so let’s limit the recognition to the workplace.
    When you are married you are more likely to be hired in the first place; that is, be recognized as competent. [Stanford, 2012]
    Once employed, married men are promoted faster and more often than single men, and are less likely to lose their jobs when employers make mass lay offs. [UMass, 2014]
    3. Unfortunately, Garrett is unable to recognize maturity. He notes Max and Strauss practiced a “frat boy lifestyle” and whines about their losing this. Sorry bro, less beer and more church (or just staying home and reading a book instead of going out and getting plastered and engaging in random sex) is not something to be so worked up about.
    Best of luck, Mr. Garrett. You are obviously going to need it.

    1. Sounds like traditional conservative troll response, trying justify beta male existence as morally superior.

  51. What this shows is that males are naturally drawn to civilized behavior. o matter how much party and pussy a man gets a normal man will settle in to a civilized life with a woman. These guys have women as the center of their life and always have. A huge chunk of men are like that

  52. The frat boy lifestyle was narrower, while The Game peddled the idea that any nice-guy loser could catapult themselves into being sought after by any woman.
    “Themselves” when you even say in the same sentence that you are talking about a guy? This feminist drive to replace “he” in hypothetical examples with the ridiculous “they” has gone so far that people now say they even when it is OBVIOUS which sex they are talking about.
    Let’s be clear: one person is never “they”. Never “them”. For all time we have used “he” for hypothetical persons, which feminists now declare is evil aggression toward women. You could just as well argue that it’s aggression toward men as we don’t get to have our “he” to ourselves, while women have “she” to themselves. Feminists know this, but this whole issue is just propaganda from their side.
    If your feelz are too loyal to feminism to say “he” for a hypothetical person, then make the whole example plural. It isn’t hard to do. If you are talking about a customer entering a store and then seeing a poster, talk about customers, plural, instead. Then you can say the precious “they will see the poster right away” and breathe (not breath) a sigh of relief, for not having said he.

  53. There is nothing inherently wrong with marriage and fatherhood, provided you’re doing it with the right philosophy, one which asserts your masculinity instead of the status quo trying to strangle it. Game and its offshoots are not diametrically opposed to settling down.
    Exactly. And this punctures every single anti-game diatribe.
    I’d like to see a poll of manosphere visitors, asking: Would you say no to a relationship if you found the right girl, because you wanted to play the field more? I expect 95 percent would say no to that question. Game helps you find a girl, but that doesn’t mean you can’t stay with that girl. But yes, game approves of sleeping with many hot women on the way if you want to, and leaves it up to you to decide when to do that and when not.
    And I won’t deny it’s been great to sleep with a whole lot more girls than I would have otherwise – thanks to learning game more than a decade ago. But this is then turned to “You never want to settle down! You’re gonna be old and lonely!” False, I now have a great girlfriend. I could have settled along the way, as leftists and tradcons tell you to do, but I didn’t. I kept looking and found a great girl, so now I have the relationship I want. Thanks to game.
    As with all leftist attacks on dissenters from their paradigm, they falsify the target’s position.

  54. I have seen two less known, but no less insightful, game bloggers close their sites after denouncing game in part – because they both got girlfriends. (“But if you get married you can have children, so who’s the bigger alpha, huh?”) Both were in their twenties with active lives, and wrote about their dating experiences. Great to see. But it seems many denounce game when they get a relationship in order to placate the girl, who is afraid of seeing them loyal to a sphere which teaches men how to pick up women. Very dangerous. So the men can score easy points for free by denouncing that sphere. Same with men who are too old to play the field. But these men ignore what David says above, what Chateau Heartiste and others have said over and over: Game is for life. If you think these teachings are not for a relationship too, then you are making a big mistake. And that girlfriend is going to suffer for it. You think she will appreciate having a loyal, placating, doughy couch potato around – you’re wrong.

  55. Too much competition that birthed newer ideas and future philosophies.
    They had to switch up and go the mainstream route where the bread and butter of “Copy and Paste” covers all mediums. Their former style requires deep thinking and effort in which modern times can’t keep up and forces you to become a outcast yet praised later on for being ahead of your time.
    They got tired of being warriors in the field and wanted to be “Kings”. Mainstream Kings but kings nonetheless.
    They threw on the “suit and tie” and cashed out . I would respect it better if they just came out and said that instead of using a spin job and shaming other dudes still in the game trying to push it to new heights of thought and action.
    Its whatever though. They left their mark, There names for better or worse will be mentioned in the “History of Game” whether we like it or not.
    Hopefully their new women in their lives are different from the Game awareness that men have studied for years now. Maybe somehow they wont follow the same script as 90% of other women do since men became game aware.
    Maybe?…… Right?

  56. Wow, Tucker Max really looks like a pile of shit lately. Whatever happened to his book writing service he was touting about a year ago?

    1. >>>Whatever happened to his book writing service he was touting about a year ago?
      He is still going around Austin bragging about his “startup,” which is simply a ghostwriting company. He comes up with several BS responses on why it is NOT just a ghostwriting company but is so DISRUPTIVE but it’s a crock of shit. He was also trying to establish himself as an angel investor but failed. He lucked out on the Deep Eddy Vodka acquisition (the company let him invest hoping to benefit from his “party bro cred”) but nobody in town takes him seriously.

      1. Not surprised about the bullshit “disruptive service” of ghostwriting. And boutique vodkas kinda jumped the shark a while ago in terms of sales, no? It’s just not a very difficult spirit to make and make distinctive compared to gin, scotch, rum, etc. Looks like that line is going with fruity flavors to catch the bimbo market. Maybe that’ll pan out for him, who knows.
        I had a (lost and hopelessly beta) friend show me a copy of Strauss’s book – declaring that he now took the red pill. He probably also recently read Tucker Max books (hopefully he was spared the shitty movie). Unfortunately no, my friend still did not take it – Strauss barely alludes to it in his books and Max doesn’t know what it is.

  57. I wrote a pretty good, lengthy negative review of Neil Strauss’ new book “The Truth” on Amazon after reading all 400+ pages of it, which touches on some of these similar points and more. If you like the review (or just hate Neil for whatever personal reason) go upvote it on Amazon so more people can see the message

  58. constant game wears even the most strident charger out………shallow, vapid, albeit fuckable women become boring……..soon, there is no game, and we move on to the next challenge………easily predictable

  59. Tucker was never a natural Alpha. He could just write a good story. In high school, he was a mouthy little punk who got his head flushed down the toilet a lot. I still think that’s the reason his daddy pulled him out and sent him to that boarding school up north.

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