5 Things To Do At The Moment Your Ideal Girl Walks By You

The following article is sponsored by Daytime Dating.

There can be no doubt that in 2017 day game is an essential skill that all men need to learn. If you are not already approaching girls that you see as you go about your daily life, such as when you are travelling to work, shopping, or going to the gym, you are missing out on countless opportunities that could lead to intimacy.

The decline in night game in most Western countries has by now been well documented. Clubs are noisy, expensive, crowded, and filled with girls only looking for validation. Thanks to Tinder and other dating apps, women have lost the urgency to meet men as their attention spans become seriously compromised by the prospect of their next right swipe.

Day game, on the other hand, is still a viable option for guys hoping to meet someone of the opposite sex. The fact is you see a lot more beautiful girls around in the day than you do in the club, since not every hot girl around likes to party to Afrojack every night of the week. Another thing is that the girls you talk to in the day time are unlikely to be drunk and even better, they’re often alone, so you don’t have to deal with their cockblocker friends.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, day game works well because if you do it right, the girl will feel like she’s living a scene from her favorite romantic movie, and be more ready to invest in a relationship with you as a result.

All that said, here are five tips to follow when you go out to meet girls in the daytime…

1. Be direct and sincere

Girls are busy just like we are, and the last thing they need is some guy they don’t know coming up and wasting their time. For that reason, it works really well if you’re upfront and honest in your approach. For example, you might say something like “Hey, I just noticed you and you looked really interesting. I wanted to say Hi. I’m Jeff. What’s your name?”

While it’s possible some girls may shrug off such an opener and go about their business (as perhaps they are married, in a serious relationship, or simply not interested), many will be flattered that you took the time to open them with a compliment in a socially calibrated manner.

From there you might make a small observation about her, based on her clothing or style. Whether your observation is accurate or not, this should lead into a conversation about what she is actually doing.

Don’t be tempted to go overboard with game tactics: she’s much more likely to want to meet a normal, confident guy for a drink than someone who comes over as too “game-y”.

2. Don’t be afraid to be a little nervous

It’s absolutely fine if you’re a little nervous—in fact if anything it can be an advantage. You don’t want to come across to her as the kind of guy who’s done this with the last ten women he’s met. Far better to seem slightly shy—it only makes the whole thing more authentic.

Of course, if you genuinely are very nervous about approaching women then this is something you’re going to have to get handled when you start day game. By far my favorite technique for overcoming nerves is to remind myself that just by making an approach at all I’m putting myself ahead of 95% of other men who would never dare do such a thing. From there I choose only to “reward myself” for making the approach, regardless of what the outcome might be. So even if she rejects me, I congratulate myself for having tried anyway.

3. Don’t make the reason you’re going out to be solely about hitting on women

Rather than going out with the intention of picking up women, it is far better you do so as part of your everyday routine. That way your interactions will seem natural and unforced.

I work in the center of a major city and I travel to my office on the subway. In the mornings I make it a habit to approach at least one girl before I get to work. By doing this, I break through any “approach anxiety” I might be feeling early in the day, and you’d be surprised how many girls are receptive to a pleasant approach this early too.

Later in the morning I will get an approach in as I go to my local coffee shop, or when I go to the grocery store for lunch. An easy way to open girls here is by making a humorous comment about the food or beverage they’ve selected.

Finally, a great time of day to approach is in the evening when girls are on their way home from work. Most are happy to be getting out of the office and are chatty as a result: doubly so if she’s been for an after-work drink with colleagues.

4. Get her number and text her

This may sound obvious but it’s vital. In the day time, numbers are far more important than in night game and a two-minute conversation in the street can easily lead to a date that night. So always ask for the number and always follow up with a text. You never know what might happen, particularly since girls will be excited to hear from you as you’re not just another ‘bar guy.’

When texting a new girl keep things light and humorous and bear in mind that, while it’s great if you can spark up some witty conversation on SMS, the main object of the exercise is to get get her out on a date.

For example, if you commented on the red dress she was wearing when you met, you might open with something like “Hey, so it’s red dress girl from earlier.” Then you can ask her about her day or whatever, before saying something like “Well, it sounds like you could do with some relaxation. We really should meet for drinks: how about X Bar at 7pm tomorrow?”

5. Do not follow her

Approach her, touch her shoulder and then HOLD YOUR GROUND. She may well keep walking a few steps before she works out that you are not a beggar. Stay still and wait until she faces you, stops, or walks back. Do not be tempted to walk after her: it looks weak, needy, and at worst, potentially threatening.

At this point you should simply tell her that you saw her walking past, that you think she looks cool and you would like to introduce yourself. Again, some girls may not stop, and that’s fine: far better to weed out definite “no” girls up front and early.

Others will be receptive and stop to chat. With these you can be confident that there is at least a baseline level of interest. Go into normal conversation before saying “I’ve really enjoyed talking to you. I have to meet friends now, but let me take your number and I’ll message you. We should meet for drinks another time.” Then you can simply hand her your phone open to the contacts page so she can enter her details.

To become really proficient in day game, though, it’s worth investing in high-quality training in order to ensure that you have the most cutting-edge techniques at your disposal. For that reason you should to check out Daytime Dating by Jeremy Soul from Love Systems. It will allow you to…

  • Be able to comfortably and easily talk to women that interest you with potent daytime dating tips in all different types of social settings
  • Have complete freedom and choice in your love life
  • Meet, attract, and date attractive girls (who share your interests)
  • Know how to attract beautiful girls without having to use cheesy pick up lines or pretend to be someone you’re not
  • And do all of this without feeling awkward, nervous, manipulative, or at a loss for words

Daytime Dating is a tried and tested, 3-part system you can use to meet, attract, and date any of the gorgeous women you just happen to see during your day-to-day life. Learn how to date a beautiful woman through a rigorous program that contains three parts:

  • Part 1: Preparation (The When, Where, and How)
  • Part 2: Emotional Progression (What to Say and Do)
  • Part 3: Physical Progression (How to Get What You Want)

Daytime Dating equips you with the approaches, insights, and skills that you need to quickly and easily transform your interactions with women, as well as techniques to get past your own issues, gain confidence, and turn that corner towards the life you want, all without the fear of rejection, uncomfortable pauses, or not knowing what to say. To learn more about Daytime Dating click here.

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111 thoughts on “5 Things To Do At The Moment Your Ideal Girl Walks By You”

    1. Always take your kratom suppository before you go out looking for the ideal girl.

  1. Number 6 : Know that she is not your ideal girl and that your ideal girl does not exist.

        1. I don’t know what that means , but it’s probably smth that I would do to her.

    1. The waistline on # 3…
      All females should be built like that.
      I like when they worry about eating even one slice of bread.

  2. Direct game is great when you see the perfect girl but just have no idea what to say. It happens to all of us where we can’t come up with some BS opener to start a conversation like “do you know where the pet store is?” or “Where can I find a KFC?”
    Yes it’s awkward if the girl doesn’t find you attractive but you can bolt.

    1. How direct? I’ve never once in my life gone up and told a girl she was pretty or whatever. I always go up and make a comment like a normal conversation like ” this song reminds me of…” or whatever.
      Does direct compliment work? I feel like they shouldn’t get any compliments until I get something first.

      1. Done that. Will do it again. And yes, it does work. Quite well. Have to be able to hit and move though as you can’t start stroking her arm while you call her pretty. Just say it, get your intro in and see if you two click. Got numbers and instant lays with it.

      2. If the complement is about her taste, it works. for example if you see some hot piece of ass in some jeans that are painted over the best ass you have ever seen, especially if they are designer label, say, “Wow, those are great jeans. Where did you get them? My sister is looking for a pair just like that.” This gives the excuse that you are trying to help a woman who is not your girlfriend. Or if she is in a short tight skirt with a tiny little waist say that style really complements her figure (a twofer). You see, the point is to complement her choices, not her body.

    2. And you can tailor it to what kind of girl you’re approaching. If she’s got a little critter with her, you can use the pet shop example to signal “Hey, I’m a guy with a soft spot for puppies too”, if you’re looking to harpoon a whale the KFC example says “I’m down with the whole pro-heart attack lifestyle”.

  3. Yes, this article is correct. Daygame seems to be nowadays the last option.
    Three weeks ago i tried again some online dating. (I used to do it very excessively and succesfully from 2001-2014)
    But almost no respond from other woman anymore.They are just looking for validation, responding
    with a half sentence, no investment, not willing to phone.Asking no questions
    Example: I asked her “Hello Barbara, how are? Have a nice day, Marco”
    Her reply: ” i am fine” (Not asking me the same question)
    I probably wasted about 40-50 hours in the last three weeks with this without any result.I am really pissed.
    Damn this western dating culture is going to hell

    1. haha you have some strange expectations about online dating man. You have to invest 2-3 years to get one date if you’re lucky nowadays.

      1. Is it that bad? Nearly 20 years ago, I got a couple dates, long drive each time to see a girl that is 2-3 points below the SMV of her picture. One of them was nearly 300 lb. Didn’t even say a word, I just flipped her off and walked out. She wasted 4 hours of driving time.

        1. I’ve texted some of the most ugly landwhales out there to see if I could make them meet me , just for the sake of it. Impossible. And I’m above average in looks, fit and have a manly style. My only disadvantages are my height witch is only average (5’9) and my relatively young age (20). Bitches love older men.
          So it’s that bad Jim.

        2. Social media has allowed the average girl to interact with a celebrity directly, so the average Joe stand next to zero chance for pre wall women.
          Go on any sports stars’ or Saudi Sheikh’s Instagram for that matter, and you’ll see their walls littered with caked up women soliciting their beef curtains for hire.
          Day game is still King for those of us not yet in the 7 digit + tax bracket.

        3. Ummm…I’m 6’1″ and older (by 3 decades)…They’ve never broken down my door…

        4. Oh, I don’t know.
          I’ve seen plenty of local guys, with regular jobs like electrician or construction worker, cops & firemen (especially those two jobs) have hot girls throw themselves at them.
          But don’t take my above post the wrong way. You’re just starting out. And you seem to have the right attitude. You’ll absolutely do better than me for sure.

        5. Well those guys have to put some effort in to get those women , howerever small may it be. Their manly professions are advantageous.
          The only scenario , outside of being famous/rich , where women will be knocking at your door is at school. You just be a badboy and the bitches come over to you. You don’t need to do anything. I call this passive game. Very few men out there have the luxury to do passive game.
          As for me , I don’t know. I had more contacts with women and friends in general before I knew all these things. The “red pilling” has drastically reduced the number of people I can associate with.

        6. Sure. Makes sense. The fat cops & firemen are getting the “Melissa McCarthy” types.
          Yeah, “passive game”. Do you know who are the MASTERS of “passive game”???
          Drug dealers, that’s who. Girls blow coke dealers like there is no tomorrow, just for a little free coke or even a discount.

        7. Yeah the good old drug dillas. Forgot about them. Also gym instructors. Those fuckers get a lot of pussy passively.

        8. Fat cops and firemen have steady jobs, benefits and pension. These guys get involved in the worst relationships because of ego.

        9. I get a date every week through online dating. If I wanted I could get 3 to 4.
          Ranging from 7’s to 9’s.
          10’s only use it for extra validation.

        10. Sure doesn’t follow what I have been hearing from other guys, what’s your secret?

        11. I have no secrets. I just avoid the big mistakes like mirror pictures, topless pictures.
          Just 2-3 good quality photos, no description in my profile. (It has to look like you don’t give a single fuck)
          That’s how I get many matches. + 6s-7’s writing me first.
          The first text is important; no “hey” “hello” “whats up” and no thirsty pervert shit.
          It has to be something funny and OUTSTANDING. Because over 5 guys a day text her a day. My old one was “You look like a little unicorn sliding down the rainbow :)”
          Stupid, but it works.
          Or some roleplay shit like: “Gonna rob the central bank tomorrow, Can you drive the getaway car?”
          After few texts I say “hey, let ‘s exchange numbers, this app crashes all the time.” Often I give my number first. Sometimes they are scared to give their number away.
          That’s basically it.

        12. Try finding the few hot women over 35; them bitches cream their jeans for young cock.

        13. That has been true since at least the 70s. If you dealt drugs, and especially coke, you had pussy dripping off of you.

        14. I got out of it when it still was in it’s infancy. Chat rooms you go to, based on locale. Just waffle not unlike this. If you decide to, send one a private message and hope she responds. Figure out a public landmark to meet at and take her out from there.

        15. Bitches cream their pants…. I thought only a man could cream his pants….

        16. “You look like a little unicorn sliding down the rainbow :)”
          Wow stealing this. Very funny and my type of opener. I also use such nonsense a lot and girls love it. Well 8 out of 10 at least.

        17. Means shit. I usually meet with 7/10s on tinder or above and I am bellow average in looks. But I work out so not fattie. Fatties are out of their mind and you should never base your success in failing at picking them up. I ave much much much more success with good looking women than fatties. I hunt what I perceive as beautiful and well, if they do not respond, I move on to next.
          Fatties are more entitled than good looking women. It is a modern paradox but that’s my experience.

        18. My cousin always messages them “I’m stopping at Whole Foods. You need anything?”. Always gets a response. I’m stealing the roleplaying idea though-just cocky funny enough to work

    2. Don’t feel bad.
      I’ve noticed an inverse relationship between online success vs cold approach game.
      Persistence is crucial to cold approach whereas it comes across as “stalkerish” online.
      The online crowd tends to lack this confidence and the women usually are hiding flaws via Photoshop.

    3. Yeah, things are fading fast. The problem with day game though is the flaking is much higher. So you definitely don’t want it to be your only basket. Smartphones killed that too.

      1. How is it possible to be flakier? I thought we reach peak flakiness a decade ago.

      2. Yeah, most women are completely messed up by smartphones. It should be forbidden
        for any woman to possess a smartphone

    4. Yeah online dating is a major waste of time and money. I did what you did and all it did was make me feel bad. Awful.

    5. Be original. If I got hello from girls everyday i would also just ignore it. Every opener i used in tinder is only one that exists and I never start two conversations using same opener. And many girls say my openers are original or compliments they never heard in their lives (for example, I love your cat but I like your cheeks too). A girl melted. So yeah, as an introvert with 5/10 looks I think I am doing ok on tinder.

    6. Gotta read their profile and ask a specific question. She likes to read, tell her you “love Jacque Dumas, especially ’20 Years Later’, what is one of your favorite authors/books?” Too many guys say, “Hi, I’m John” or “Wow, you look beautiful”. Gotta get into that squirrel cage. “I loved ’50 Shades’, have you read it? Did you like it?” is better than those other two,.

  4. The pick up line of all pick up lines: Have you ever tried Kratom? Try to sell in Kratom and you are already halfway inside.
    I mean seriously. That is some novelty factor.

  5. I think the most effective day game is to have your local spots. Have a bar, a coffee shop, a restaurant, a grocery store, a head shop, whatever. Go there on a somewhat regular basis and you’ll make friends. Eventually you’ll be recognized by the cute girls that work/frequent that place.
    Being the dude that everybody knows is very impressive to women. They’re sheep. Just like highschool. If everybody is listening to one dude, she’ll assume he’s The Dude. Plus, being social is important for man’s happiness. Especially western man. Everything in this fucked up society is trying to divide and isolate us. The way to win, is to make friends in person.
    The best players I’ve met all had that “good old boy” vibe. They chatted up everybody, everywhere. I try to be like that. Easier said than done, but always a work in progress.

    1. “Being the dude that everybody knows is very impressive to women. They’re sheep. Just like highschool. If everybody is listening to one dude, she’ll assume he’s The Dude. Plus, being social is important for man’s happiness. Especially western man. Everything in this fucked up society is trying to divide and isolate us. The way to win, is to make friends in person.”
      Spot on. Your comment should be featured.

      1. Yeah, he hit the nail on the head with that one. Girls want the ringleader. Or the perceived ringleader. Even if he is a dunce, they will want him.

    2. ^This. And be sure to be playful with other women [waitresses, etc]-in front of the girl you’re courting.
      Knowing a man has options drives women absolutely wild.

    3. Spot on. I’m a natural introvert and several years ago I noticed the same thing you did, that the naturals just have that vibe and talk to everyone. Initially I was just mimicking their behaviour (fake it til you make it), but now it’s a part of me and it’s effortless to talk to anyone.
      Solid advice with “becoming a regular” in various places too.

      1. I was a natural introvert. I got over it. You can too. I talk to everyone. My wife gets pissed sometimes, but we have a lot more friends than other couples we know. I even met my much younger wife that way. I had asked my friends married to Filipinas to introduce me to single Filipinas over 35 (when I was 51). My future wife was 23, and I told her she was just too young, but kept on talking to her. She eventually wore me down. That is the down side of talking with everyone and becoming an extrovert.

      2. Don’t mistake having charisma and confidence with being extroverted. I’m an introvert but have never had trouble talking to people. An introvert is simply someone who likes to spend relatively more time alone vs an extrovert who likes to spend lots of time around other people. It has nothing to do with your ability to talk to people.

        1. Exactly right. I take over every place I go, however, I prefer more time to hang with myself or a few close friends around my pool.

    4. * The best players I’ve met all had that “good old boy” vibe. They chatted up everybody, everywhere. I try to be like that.*
      ^This. It’s really just getting past the mental block of interacting with people in general. And being interesting. Developing natural wit. The understanding that we’re the prize because we have to put in the work and demonstrate high value. The privilege of just showing up and getting attention is the domain of women.

      1. There comes a point of too much chat. The loudest guy in the room is the weakest. Silence is confidence and talking too much is insecurity. There is a middle of the road interacting with people. I have had young dudes chat me up when they are with a girl. They are demonstrating to her how polite and respectful they are. I go along with it because he is young and needs L’il Miss Muffet to lay him.

        1. Nonsense. Go ahead and stand on the wall, putting out Alpha male vibes. It’s the guy working the room that’s getting play. Unless you’re an actor or pro athlete, you can’t snag chicks in a public setting with the disaffected vibe.

        2. I talking about the annoying fuck who is just all over the place in everyone’s business. I believe we call them assholes.

    5. I have to say. I go coffee shops and what not on the regular. The only thing I score there is coffee. But to be honest its generally nose studded, self-harming tattoo chicks in there. Restaurants and bars don’t really work out because girls get hit on continuously there.
      You know what works for me during the day? The train. I’ve gotten more dates from the train than anywhere else. Here recognition works well because you see the same girls every day.

  6. There is no such thing as “your ideal girl”. They all have good and bad. The moment you think she is “the one” is the moment you start to lose her.

    1. Very true. You like her, she loves you. Best situation to be in. Explained pretty well in this bit by Patrice O’Neal.

      1. I wish you had not done that. Now I am going to need a little Patrice time. Genius, pure genius how he breaks it down into simple honest terms.

        1. Watched it thanks. Some of the O&A stuff is pure gold. I like to watch the short 4 to 7 minute blurbs. I love Patrice and I always wonder what he would be saying now. Gone too soon.

      1. dont forget Bob, one must wear those oddball sunglasses and a long leather/trench coat, also say it in a creepy monotone voice with an emotionless expression all the while staring her down intently.

    2. it’s not about them being perfect, but less fucked up than most women because of their education or some event in their life that made them think and behave differently than most women.
      of course, alway expect the worst. so stay cold hearted. you never know.

    1. There it is. I skipped to the comment section first just for that. The only thing I would add is that it’s spelled Kratom, with a capital “K”.

  7. Not following her is good advice. Sometimes it just gets by you in the heat of the moment though. On the other hand, I usually try to get her to follow me. This not only establishes your leadership, but it also, if done properly, channels the universal principle of influence of unity and in-grouping that Robert Cialdini talks about at length in Pre-Suasion. I recommend you guys check it out. Implementing it made my approaches a lot better, and I’ve been doing this for three years now. http://masculineepic.com/index.php/2017/05/13/pre-suasion-review/

  8. Day game is the best way to reach an untapped market of women who don’t go to bars and don’t date online. Some don’t even watch television and prefer books. They’re eager for conversation. It’s not a last resort but a whole new market.

        1. nope. museum, opera, classical music place are some of the place they appear sometime.

  9. 5 THINGS TO DO AT THE MOMENT YOUR IDEAL GIRL WALKS BY YOU
    I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
    I have to turn my head until my darkness goes
    I see people turn their heads and quickly look away
    Like a newborn baby, it just happens everyday
    I look inside myself and see my heart is black

  10. Best way to interact is stop taking things seriously learn to enjoy human interaction and treat life like a joke. Don’t fall for the danger of becoming a special snowflake. When you get blown off just shrug and continue human interaction. Life is there is entertain YOU not the other way around

  11. Ideal girl……
    “they”, or ((they)) killed her. She no longer exists, or maybe never did in my lifetime.
    Or quite possibly never existed in all time, for anybody.
    The “ideal girl” is perfection. And perfection is never truly achieved. Sure you might make the perfect omelette.
    But ask your favorite musician about the perfect performance and he’ll tell you the instrument was flat or he felt it was too slow.
    The article itself though is sound, but we are fooling ourselves on this vernacular of an “ideal woman”. They don’t exist. So let’s be real about it.

    1. yes she do, easy to spot. (((they))) only brainwashed the beehive women, look for the lone wolf woman.

  12. Happened to a good friend of mine just discharged from the army. He went to local concert where the lead singer was a cute little chica. During a break she walked by and he reached out and gently grabbed her arm and said while directly looking her in the eyes, “hey. I know your busy, but I want to take you out sometime. Give me your number and if you are up for it, we’ll go out. Thanks. Have a goodnight.” And went back to conversing with his friend.
    They have been married over 25 years with 3 kids. His wife told me about that night and said she was shocked about the balls of this guy and how confident he was. That sealed it for her.
    The real ZFG attitude will set you free of a lot of social hang ups and open doors you not thought possible.

      1. Yes Jake. Confidence, assertiveness, directness and a Zero Fucks Given attitude to the social norms or consequences of your immediate action has an intoxication that females respond too.
        You are welcome to read some of the many articles on ROK about those very subjects.

        1. Confidence can only work if you have something to be confident in. Muscular, athletic, Marital Arts/Boxing, Mechanical/Electrical/Carpentry skills. Females only respect physicality. Which is why it is so important for fathers to train their sons in these areas. Or see to it that they are trained.
          Being educated, intelligent, polite, honest, hardworking, and well off financially means sh*t to American females.

  13. ‘5 THINGS TO DO AT THE MOMENT YOUR IDEAL GIRL WALKS BY YOU”
    Lets see, what to do….. realize that some where there is some guy sick of her shit – and not to be the next guy sick of her shit.
    Best thing to do instead, is to be her ideal guy – and no I’m not speaking being good looking or wearing the right outfit, but rather be her ideal guy i.e. be a coke dealer or entertainment industry mogul.

    1. At this point I find it impossible not to realize that some where there is some guy sick of her shit. If I was still on the hunt I would have to get past that. Not that the assumption is wrong, mind you.

      1. Indeed you are correct. If one needs to get laid then yes, get past it. But it was already stated that there is no such thing as an ideal girl – this mindset puts females on a pedastol they do not deserve.

  14. 1. True
    2. True
    3. Half-True. Sometimes you should also go out 100% focused on approaching.
    4. Text her, when she is right in front of you, your name. Or make her text you her name. Works good if she has a special name, even better when it’s a very simple name like Lisa. Tell her to text it to you so you remember it.
    Also don’t say: “Can I get your number?” Sounds too much like you are taking things from her, and she will be more likely say no.
    Say “Let’s exchange numbers!” instead. It sounds way more like it is mutual.
    5. Half True again. It’s right, never FOLLOW her. But the “hard stop” only works 30-40%. If you let the others go away you miss so many opportunities.
    Instead: Walk WITH her, right on her side, as you would work with your gf. Keep talking to her and then after few meters you can stop her. Don’t forget to put a “false time constraint” in. (Like, I’m about to meet with my friends, I have just 2 minutes..)

  15. To avoid the dreaded “following her down the street” syndrome I actually walk slightly past the girl and as I pass I lightly touch her on the upper arm, almost as if I’m leading her. I don’t recommend tapping her on the shoulder. Personally I find it annoying and intrusive when people tap me on the shoulder and you don’t want to begin your interaction with a girl by annoying her. An extended touch to her upper arm is actually more intimate and sends signals of attraction and dominance.

  16. I remember when I was young, I never followed girls. I didn’t know what I was doing but my friends thought I was nuts for not following a girl when she wanted me to. It just felt weak. Now, these many years later, we understand the psychology… you are weak. It always felt that way. This is one of the biggest ones on the list. You call her over, you ask her to leave with you, you lead, she follows. The guys who complain about not getting sex….follow.

  17. This might work if you live in the US or western Europe, not so good advice otherwise.
    You can’t just touch random women on the street.
    Unless you’re a good looking foreign tourist, most women here will either hit you, use a pepper spray, shout for help and run.
    Only exception might be at an open-air concert or some other kind of similar event, but even then it’s not a given.

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