In the last few years there have even been many articles and even books written by women expelling the virtues of avoiding motherhood. In fact any cursory glance at the majority of child-free websites or forums would show that 99% of the contributors are female. However much of the content about women avoiding motherhood is simply not applicable to men opting out of fatherhood.
For example, I think women have a different relationship with remaining childless because they need to reach a decision about becoming a parent relatively early in adulthood as after they reach 40, natural childbirth for them is a difficult thing to achieve. This is in stark contrast to men who can delay parenthood into old age as anybody who has traveled to South East Asia can attest to frequently seeing men in their 70´s having babies with younger wives and girlfriends.
As men, we tend to think of life logically and put our emotions aside when making decisions about what we want in our lives. Consciously or unconsciously most men realize the financial implications of having children because unlike women we cannot expect someone else to foot the bill for them. Even if you have no interest in having a child and have one by accident a man is aware of the power of the state to garnish his paycheck or even lock him up if he loses his job and falls behind paying child support.
Fatherhood Is Expensive
For those men with an interest in making it work with the mother or supporting the child beyond the minimum financial requirements, they are almost always signing up for large financial commitments. Consider that as a man without children you can choose to live close to work, giving you more free time since you have a smaller commute and without children you can live in a smaller more economical place. Compared to say a father who now needs a larger home with adequate space for the kids and that is located in a good school district and you begin to see how doing the right thing for your kids starts to become such an expensive undertaking.
From a strictly financial standpoint children no longer provide the return on investment they once had when 90% of the population were living on farms. Nor in 2013 America can they be relied on to provide long-term care to their parents as that work has now been outsourced to nursing homes at the first sign of trouble.
Fatherhood Has Opportunity Costs
To further illustrate the financial differences between the father and a child-free man you need to look at opportunity costs which can best be described as “the cost of an alternative that must be forgone in order to pursue a certain action.” A man with kids puts the needs of his children first and in order to provide stability to his kids will usually pass on a promotion or job lead which requires a move to another city while a child-free man would have little to hold him back.
One must also examine the opportunity cost of the excess capital that the child-free man can have to make towards investments since his excess discretionary funds can help him build up a large investment portfolio. And perhaps the biggest opportunity cost lost to having children is that when you have only yourself to think about you are generally more willing to take on greater risk with starting one’s own business rather than holding on to a steady job because you now can’t afford to lose the health plan and guaranteed paycheck. Who knows how many startup and innovative companies are never built by family men not willing to risk going alone and instead need to hold onto their comfortable office job?
Fatherhood Comes With Less Freedom
The opportunity cost idea of having kids also addresses a lifestyle of freedom which is something men without children have in abundance since they are only responsible for themselves. As humans we are in a constant state of evolution and part of that involves making changes to your life when you feel it is the right thing to do. As such many fathers may find themselves working jobs they hate to support their family while they yearn for a change of lifestyle and to start a different career or even to expatriate.
Making changes to one’s life which may be necessary to finding personal happiness are very difficult to do when you weigh your life down with the responsibility of providing for children. But beyond having the mobility to make vast lifestyle changes for many men the freedom achieved by never having kids might be something comparatively trivial like wanting to sleep in every weekend or not having to worry about finding a babysitter to engage in some fun with your friends. Personally I don’t want to ever feel like a prisoner to the lifestyle and time obligations that come with correctly raising a child.
I think the freedom achieved in man’s life by never having children speaks to a larger issue which is that you only get one shot at this life so you should live it with no regrets or in the case of children buyer’s remorse. To help summarize this I defer to famous child-free bachelor George Clooney who when asked about his decision to not have kids replied:
I remember Uncle George sitting in bed (death bed), 68 years old. He looked at me and said, ‘What a waste.’ … I came to the conclusion that I was not going to wake up one day in my 60s and say, ‘What a waste.’ I was going to grab as much out of this life as I could.
This quote addresses the issue that kids are a major lifestyle change and once they are in your life you do not get to hit the reset button. The lifestyle of having a family is not as necessary to male happiness as it is to women since men are more individualistic in nature and men are also less likely to feel a void without children.
While I do think some men are naturally paternal it is not encoded in all men, just look at the animal kingdom, how many male animals stay with the young? I think for the majority of men becoming a father is a learned behavior through social conditioning rather than an instinctive paternal nature. The fact is most men have little to no interest in dealings with babies and children and would rather spend their free time on their passions and hobbies.
Western Fathers Have Diminishing Rights
Historically society was aware of the sacrifice men made in providing for women and children and rewarded men by giving them dominion over their family. Unfortunately today this is no longer the case in many parts of the world (e.g. Anglosphere) and this has strongly disincentivized men from wanting to have children. Any objective look at the power of Child Protection Agencies and Law Enforcement would conclude that modern day fathers have been emasculated by the state and now they are no longer the head of the household.
To help illustrate this point consider that women can create false domestic violence accusations to have the man removed from the home (which he paid for) and by default receive custody of the children while accusations are investigated. The power of the state is especially visible when the relationship with the child´s mother ends and now the man must submit to the decisions made by the family court on mandates of child custody and child support. According the most recent US Census, “The majority of custodial parents were mothers (82.2 percent), and about 1 in 6 (17.8 percent) were fathers.” With women overwhelmingly likely to become the custodial parent they can therefore expect to receive child support from the father which is money that they do not have to be accountable for in spending on the child.
Even in very public celebrity cases where the mother is receiving several thousand dollars a month to raise the child, society refuses to call this for what it really is: a wealth transfer from men to women who can use child support checks on whatever they want such as shoes, nails and handbags. Given that women can most always expect to receive custody of the child and by extension child support money every month it is no wonder that over 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Considering the environment men are dealing with is it any surprise that many men view the role of a father today as little more than that of a sperm donor and human wallet.
Fatherhood Does Not Bring Happiness
In the face of all the glaring disadvantages of being a father that have been discussed one would have to assume that the happiness a child brings to a parent makes all of those sacrifices worth it. That is until one looks at some of the limited studies that have been done on the subject. One of the first studies on the subject was done by famous advice columnist Ann Landers who did a survey in 1975 to see if people could do it over again would they have children and to the dismay of the American public 70% of those that wrote in to her said no. While that Ann Landers study was hardly scientific, it goes along with anecdotal stories online along the lines of “I hate being a father/mother.” This suggests there is a disconnect about what society wants people to believe about parenthood.
Arguably the best scientific evidence evaluating parental satisfaction are happiness studies which conclude:
In fact, people without kids were happier than any other group, including empty nesters . . . the conclusion was that marital quality often drops after the transition into parenthood, and that there is an increase in marital happiness after the children leave home.
Another study by Open University using 5,000 participants found that, “men with children emerged slightly less happy than those without.” Obviously it is politically incorrect for people to admit that children bring stress, make life difficult and often do not turn out the way many parents would like, so for a study to come out and state the uncomfortable reality that kids do not provide as much happiness as people think makes it difficult to kept arguing the position that having kids is worth it.
Fatherhood Requires Cognitive Dissonance
I have to assume many of the child-free men reading this may have trouble reconciling with the evidence about happiness and children because most people they know with children usually speak highly of it. My response to possible criticism is to point to a psychological theory known as cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance can best be described as:
…sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn’t fit in with the core belief. (Frantz Fanon).
Once one understands the theory of cognitive dissonance it becomes easier to make sense of why people who have invested so much time, money and energy in a lifestyle of raising children would even in the face of the many difficulties still only want to speak highly of child rearing.
I strongly believe that the decision to become a father is something no guy should take lightly because of its life changing implications. Many men become fathers by accident because they foolishly trust a girl to be using birth control or they find a girl they don’t want to lose and they give into her demands for children. Therefore as men we need to be aware of the benefits of opting out of fatherhood because the pressure from one´s family, friends and significant other can make it difficult to go against the grain and stand your ground in avoiding becoming a dad.
Read Next: How To Convince A Girl To Get An Abortion
This article is as red pill as it gets
This
Why is it that there are no articles about men laying out the reasons for not wanting kids. There are dozens of articles by women about avoiding motherhood but not one about men avoiding fatherhood. Is this subject not important for men? If you ask me one of the most important decisions a man can make is deciding to be a dad. Many articles advocate not getting married but this article at least brings a context to why a man should not follow the script of not having kids.
Becoming a father is like climbing Mt. Everest. Some people might say “Climbing Mt. Everest is stupid, it’s expensive, it’s dangerous, it doesn’t make you happier. Why not take all that money and spend it on something else?”
But, for those who get a huge mental and emotional high from mountain climbing, such arguments are boring and clueless. They feel that mountain climbing is it’s own reward, and we wouldn’t live life any other way.
For me, being a father is the same way. Before having kids I travelled the world, had every adventure imaginable, and screwed a lot of women. When I was ready to have kids, I had kids, knowing full in advance the many dangers that awaited. It’s been greatest adventure yet, by far. But, I was also lucky enough to find one of those few remaining women who hasn’t been ruined by American feminism.
I would not suggest fatherhood to other men today however. It’s just too hard any more. I’ve already told younger friends, cousins, etc that I thought they should avoid marriage for the next decade or so, until the current wave of feminist assholes lose power.
Great advice, you should also warn them of paternity test.
It would really suck to find out after 18 years that you’ve been raising my spawn & your gene pool is effectively wiped out.
‘Trust but verify’
‘Trust but verify’
nah, with women just verify.
Exactly. Until the laws change, fuck this fatherhood shit. Not because I’m selfish, but because I want to be a good father. How am I supposed to raise my kid well if the state can arbitrarily take him away? How can I raise my kid well if the laws impoverish me? How can I raise my kid if the laws emasculate me?
Yes exactly. My son is 10 and I find that he is literally under attack. The school system and legal system wants to either A) turn him into a homosexual or B) put him in jail. it is literally that bad. There is a very good chance that sometime in the next 8 years I will have to pick up roots and move away, to protect him from being prosecuted for some trumped-up charge.
If he lights a match or plays with a cap gun on school property, he can and will be charged with a Felony and they will try to put him in jail. This is now happening to boys as young as 11 or 12.
There have been boys in our town sent to State prison on 2-3 year sentences, with rapists and murders, for defending themselves in a fight which they didn’t start).
As a father of a son, you must consider yourself an enemy of the state at all times, and live your life accordingly.
This is a good topic, and something I think about more and more now that I’m 29. I don’t have any kids, I work a simple job that earns me enough to live a very comfortable life. The older I get, the more I feel that I need to make a move soon to have kids. At the same time I realize how my life will be a lot harder, and less free if I knock some girl up.
Having kids is a major gamble. I’m not sure what I want at this point. I enjoy coming home, and deciding I want to hit a bar or concert and not have to worry about a wife and kids, or the mortgage or the minivan payments.
I have relatives who decided to ‘live the American dream’ by moving out to a nice suburb. I watched for 20 years as they worked themselves to death just to be able to afford that lifestyle for themselves and their kids. They’re now 50-60 yrs old, over-weight, and in poor health from years of sleep deprivation and poor diet. I don’t want to end up like that. I don’t want to burn the best remaining years of my youth working to support a family.
I suppose it depends on your life goals.
To be Devil’s Advocate here, I’d like to become a father because I want to spawn a long-term hereditary power family. Hat tip to Roosh for reviewing the book “Family Fortunes” by Bonner & Bonner a while back. It lays out how families like the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, etc. stay successful.
You mention how “most men want to spend their time on their passions and hobbies” and that’s kinda the point. The best way to facilitate that sort of freedom is through wealth and power. A successful yet solitary man may empower himself. A successful patriarch can empower generations of offspring with the tools to pursue their self-improvement.
Return of Kings indeed.
I don’t expect it to be a cakewalk: I figure a commitment to paternal slavery for 20-25 years and $500,000 at a minimum (for 2 kids, minus college). I’m less concerned than most about divorce/custody issues as I’ve already relocated outside “the West”. I told my main chick I plan to knock her up in about 4 years (she’ll be 26).
Living vicariously through your kids is a bad strategy. Despite your best efforts, their grand vision of “empower[ing]… self-improvement” may very well be the end of a crack pipe. You have no control over this.
The whole argument about good vs bad parenting is that you DO control how your kids turn out. You control where you raise your kids, which affects their access to crack pipes (I’m in Japan, where hard drugs are not easy to come by). Most importantly, through years of parental instruction you influence your offsprings’ value systems to inculcate a strong aversion to substance abuse. It worked for my parents, and their parents. Of course the process isn’t 100% risk-proof (Raphael de Rothschild died of a heroin overdose in 2000, aged 23) but what in life is?
The crack pipe is a metaphor. In other words, your adult children will be individuals with their own desires and aspirations. These may not (and, probably, will not) fit neatly into your grand dynastic scheme. They are people, not pawns.
That’s an issue that is covered in the book I mentioned, Family Fortunes: how to harness and channel the talents and desires of your offspring in a means that is beneficial to the family yet doesn’t stifle their individuality. Synergy is the key.
And if you don’t understand that most people are in fact pawns in some way, I can only assume you haven’t spent much time in/around the military. A major part of military leadership is getting people to do the stuff you want done, preferably via the internalization of *your* values and the understanding of the importance of *your* mission over their individual concerns. If anything, running a dynasty should be easier because I’m not trying to convince my sons to assault machine-gun bunkers.
Having kids involves risk, just like anything else. Men take risks.
This is mentioned in the article. In the current western climate being a patriarch is made impossible, the government is the only patriarch there is. Being a father is a little more than being a sperm donor and an ATM machine. The Rothschilds, Rockefellers etc. lived in a totally different era. A period where the world of men and the world of women was seperated. What are the names of the wives of these powerful men?
Honestly, I never bothered to look into the details of their spouses. Perhaps I should. Might be interesting to see what kind of personalities and upbringing they have. It’s hard to dispel the belief that “modern patriarchy is impossible” because the necessary timescale is so large. You need 2-3 adult generations minimum. The current crop of men who got rich and powerful post-1980 don’t have enough adult male offspring to build a suitable dataset from which to draw conclusions.
The fundamental problem isn’t fatherhood, it’s “the western climate”. I see a lot of guys complaining about the structure of America, and that’s fine as a starting point, but what isn’t is that they:
a) make no indications they are ready and willing to relocate
and/or
b) make no contribution to reversing the trend by breeding and training higher quality offspring.
“Honestly, I never bothered to look into the details of their spouses. ”
This is exactly my point. Wives of men in those times kept themselves in the backrounds. This is the reason why many are unknown. Unlike for instance Michelle Obama in our era.
Ahhh, I see your point now. Michelle Obama isn’t a good example because she is the spouse of a head of state, and they are always in the limelight, from Marie Antoinette to Eleanor Roosevelt to Jackie Kennedy. Also, the proliferation of “celebrity news” and worldwide instant media makes *everyone’s* personal life more public than it was 150 years ago.
That said….who was Larry Ellison’s last wife? Or Warren Buffett’s? They are generally in the background where they belong as well, even in this day and age.
I’m really not sure I understand the maths of the money here, coming clean – I am 25 years old and just earnt an all time high (with bonus) monthly income of (~)£3k – I got to keep (~)£2k of that (tax). If I was to earn this including the bonus which I only get 4 times a year every month, in 20 years I would earn £480,000 or $643,000 according to google, which leaves $143,000 dollars for me minus my family to live of in 20 years of my life, which is £4.4k per year for rent, food and everything else, which doesn;t add up, this is more than my rent alone. The maths simply don’t work, and I know that I’m making assumtions that my salary won’t rise and other things, but there is no way to live and stay afloat in London given those numbers for a 20-something. I was speaking to my dad a couple of weekends ago who couldn’t believe his monthly mortgage payments were about half my monthly rent, admittedly he didn’t take into account inflation, but his working life so far sounds similar to mine. I’m not sure if this is a game that we can win. To be totally blunt, I couldn’t give a fuck if this all collapses and people’s money and lives perish as a result.
No man should shackle himself to the fatherhood grind if he’s genuinely not ready for it — nor should he go about it as if signing away his balls and his soul to some all-American Stepford wife were his only option.
But take the thinking behind this article to its logical conclusion and you’ve got a generation of men gleefully eschewing any and all responsibility in life, happy to essentially see their bloodline come to a close. I have far too much to see and do with my life before I start giving some sweet, fertile lass injections of baby batter. Doesn’t sound even remotely appealing to me at this stage.
But I’m also not prepared to wipe myself from the gene pool. There’s just something vaguely SWPL and self-negating about that to me.
So your only reason for having kids is to recreate your genes?
Thats fine if you want to do that but realize the financial and time expenses having kids can cause. You essentially have to rearrange your life for the ego validation of creating life. BTW no guarantee that you will even have much in common personality wise with your kids or dare I day even like them.
Everything you said is true. Those are the risks a man takes with fatherhood.
But then, life is fraught with risks. Every generation of men before me has had to deal with risks — why should I be any different? Isn’t plowing ahead despite the risks of life — learning to persevere — what being a man is about?
And going back to my original comment: what’s my alternative, to just sit back and refuse to pass on my genes because it’s too risky? To refuse to leave behind any lasting legacy other than how many cute half-Asian slits I plowed into pudding on my living room couch or how many countries I traveled to? At the end of the day, I have to think there’s some greater purpose to all this — that there should be some greater purpose — beyond whatever self-centered fun and freedom I get to enjoy at the moment.
Also, not to turn into a Heartiste commenter, but aren’t there enough forces working to ensure low birthrates for guys like me these days? Why should I, in effect, help them out?
The difference is historical context. Being a father in the Roman Republic was one thing: you had cultural and legal dominion over your house. Your wife and children were under your complete authority and could even be killed by you for dishonor or disrespect – a true patriarchy. Today is exactly the opposite and to put it simply the juice may no longer be worth the squeeze. Just my two cents anyway.
What’s being missed in this debate, is the ignorance about life extension — and how that impacts decision making in reproductive strategies.
There are currently big advances in nutrients and supplements that will support lifespan increases on the scale we have seen in the last 2 centuries. So, men can wait longer and still be healthy and youthful well past what is currently thought of as ” old “.
There is no rush , for those that take the time to research and utilize these products. My personal view is to “let em howl ” in indignation that no man is coming to save them, marry them or have kids with them.
Accumulate wealth, control assets, stay healthy and youthful. That’s the first priority.
1.”But then, life is fraught with risks.”
yes, but why go looking for trouble? it`s one thing overcoming difficulties that various circumstances put in your way, but willingly creating obstacles(i.e. kids) for yourself? i don`t see anything smart in that.
2.”I have to think there’s some greater purpose to all this”
careful buckaroo,that`s how people get religious. there is no great mistery in life, honestly there`s not. you are born alone, you die alone, what happens inbetween is up to you. you have no moral obligation to noone else except yourself, to lead a fulfilling life and avoid bitter regrets on your deathbed. you have no obligation to leave anything behind or leave the world a better place. it`s fine if you do, but for fuck`s sake don`t see it as an obligation. you don`t owe anybody anything.
3.”Why should I, in effect, help them out?”
who`s ‘them’? nobody is out to get you or compete with you. the only competition should be with yourself. and besides, if you ‘valiantly’ do your part in this fictitious battle, are you honestly better off? so you shat out some kids, whoopie fucking doo. now what? is it worth the quarter million investment to raise the brats? just so your mom or society can say that you`re now a ‘whole’ man? fuck that. keep your kids. i`d rather have the porsche.
You sound like a teenager who’s just stumbled onto some Cliff’s Notes version of nihilism. “You are born alone, you die alone.” Thanks, Livia Soprano.
“nobody is out to get you or compete with you”
You don’t seem to understand much about the way the world works. You don’t seem to understand how self-possessed men of independent thought are an increasingly rare breed — and it’s most definitely by design. What is the manosphere, if not a virtual gathering of men with a sincere drive to break away from the matrix of empty Western consumerism and blind obedience to leftist indoctrination, who wish to preserve what’s left of a rapidly disappearing old-school masculine value system? The battle is far from fictitious, “buckaroo.”
Welcome to your own genetic extinction, I say. That is, of course, your choice and it’s neither right nor wrong. But you’re wasting your time trying to convince me that my choice is somehow pointless or silly.
i don`t find anything nihilistic in affirming that you should lead your life however see you fit, seeing as how you`re gonna die anyway. this is a fact.
honestly, the only one who`ll care if my genes don`t get passed onwards are my parents. in the grand scheme of things, the choices of one individual amount to jack shit, so don`t give me any “we`re all connected” bullshit.
i said it before and i`ll say it again. the world is full of assholes, each and every one were spawned by parents hoping they`ll turn out to be a good person. calculating the percentage of good people vs assholes, you can only come to the conclusion that you raising a good person is unlikely to happen, no matter how much you take care of the sucker and how much you try to steer him/her in the right direction. count me out, not fucking worth the anguish!
Nothing would cause me to disown one of my offspring faster than hearing from his or her mouth that he/she intended not to breed. I’ve dumped my lifeblood into feeding, clothing, raising and training you, and you’re going to be nothing but an evolutionary dead end? You’re a bloody passenger pigeon?
You must have truly charitable parents – either that, or you haven’t told them you have no plans to follow in their egoistic reproductive steps and instead will enjoy an ego-free life of pleasure- and comfort-seeking.
Can I get brownie points and high fives for cuckholding a Beta?
I wonder what runs through his mind after 18 years and finding out none his children were really “his” lol
so you`re supposed to tie yourself to the train tracks just to avoid disappointing your parents? fuck that. spawning is not a virtue anymore, hell there`s like 7 billion people in the world. i find it severely conceited to want to pass your genes on just cause you think you have superior genes that should not go to waste. gimme a break. i do not live my life so that my parents are happy with me, i live so that *i* am happy. i never asked to be born and i feel no privilege to have been born – hence i feel no obligation to reciprocate anything.
What’s selfish is to influence your kids into pursuing your goal (bloodline)instead of their own happiness.
well put.
I call bullshit on one of the big points in the article.
You don’t have to risk losing custody, paying child support, or false DV accusations just to have a kid.
Copy what gay men do and use your sperm with a purchased egg and different surrogate mother in IVF. There’s no mother with legal rights and no way you can have custody pulled away or be forced to pay child support.
Pay a college girl $10,000 for her eggs, and pay a surrogate mother another $10,000. You will be the only person listed on the birth certificate. No divorce theft, no alimony, no child support payments.
Here’s a 2008 article from a magazine about gay men bypassing women when having kids. Ignore the gay part and it still applies.
“Most gay men opt for an IVF procedure using an egg from a donor placed in the body of a different woman, who carries the embryo to term.
This is called gestational surrogacy and is favored because in some states it gives the carrier no legal rights to the child she gives birth to.
Melissa Brisman, a New Jersey lawyer who specializes in reproductive law, says it can cost between $60,000 and $150,000 to create a baby through IVF. The parents pay the gestational carrier’s medical bills. The fee paid to the carrier is often around $20,000; for carrying twins it can be $3,000 to $5,000 higher. The egg donor typically gets around $8,000 (although it can be less).”
I call bullshit on one of the big points in the article.
You don’t have to risk losing custody, paying child support, or false DV accusations just to have a kid.
Copy what gay men do and use your sperm with a purchased egg and different surrogate mother in IVF. There’s no mother with legal rights and no way you can have custody pulled away or be forced to pay child support.
Pay a college girl $10,000 for her eggs, and pay a surrogate mother another $10,000. You will be the only person listed on the birth certificate. No divorce theft, no alimony, no child support payments.
Here’s a snippet from a 2008 magazine article about gay men bypassing women when having kids. Ignore the gay part and it still applies.
“Most gay men opt for an IVF procedure using an egg from a donor placed in the body of a different woman, who carries the embryo to term.
This is called gestational surrogacy and is favored because in some states it gives the carrier no legal rights to the child she gives birth to.
Melissa Brisman, a New Jersey lawyer who specializes in reproductive law, says it can cost between $60,000 and $150,000 to create a baby through IVF. The parents pay the gestational carrier’s medical bills. The fee paid to the carrier is often around $20,000; for carrying twins it can be $3,000 to $5,000 higher. The egg donor typically gets around $8,000 (although it can be less).”
i’ve actually thought seriously about this…but don’t you think a kid really need a mom at some level?
Don’t worry two Dads make a perfect substitute and better than single parent households.
Btw what happens when the college woman who donated the egg suddenly shows up for child custody and support? I guess people haven’t read the cases where sperm donors were held liable for alimony and child support, causing a sperm donation shortage.
North India is the growing hotbed for single men of either persuasion to hire a surrogate mother for implantation. Either of her own egg, or one purchased elsewhere. Since it is the man’s biological child, there’s no adoption issue, and the mother is usually very grateful for the stipend involved.
Feminists, needless to say, are less than happy about this growing development.
A mother who can teach the kid to hate you (while you’re busy at work earning money to feed and clothe them)?
A mother who can use the kid to extract $$$$ from you each month in child support, far more money than you would have actually spend on the kid if you were still living together?
A mother who can steal custody from you and make sure that you can only get to see the kid 5 days / month — just enough to stay attached and keep the checks coming?
Egg donors don’t get custody or child support. The courts are on “our” side because the earliest egg purchases were married couples. Courts like married couples, so the courts decided the cases against the egg donors.
Those cases you mentioned in the news involved men who were idiots and did “sperm donation” outside of a fertility clinic, no lawyer, no structure, etc.
Pay your money upfront (10k for the egg, 10k for the surrogate, 10k for the lawyer to make sure everything’s nice and tidy) — so you don’t have to pay money later.
That’s for now. Haven’t you read the news on DOMA? Laws can change.
Apparently marriage no longer means between a man and a woman to provide the best condition/structure of raising offspring. So marriage is whatever the 1% say it is.
Eventually polygamy will also be legal and Johnny was born via test tube have three mothers and two deadbeat dads.
Plenty of cases where fertility clinics “released” confidential donor info and “lost” offspring showing up at the door for financial/emotional support.
If you were really serious, go to a foreign country for that egg and surrogate.
That is in cases where Indian wives are infertile. Single Indian men are not doing this. Why would they?
The “why would they” means “their culture being how it is, there is no scope for a single Indian man to have or raise children like this.”
geez people, all this money..and for what? to enjoy having a mini-you running around? i speak for myself, but it`s not worth putting your life on hold just to have the ego validation of having furthered your family lineage. i will say this again and again in this thread: you do not owe anybody anything, least of all society and its fickle norms.
Many men will reply to this post. It will be helpful if they self-identified themselves as fathers or not. Remember, cognitive dissonance is a hamster on steroids.
Biggest cognitive dissonance is a beta bitch finding out 18 years later that he’s been cuckholded cuz he didn’t order a paternity test.
Thanks for paying and raising my kids. LOL
Beta makes the best dads. Government second.
Whats even better is the genuine avalanche of female internet memes talking about how a “real man” raises kids that aren’t his! LMFAO. Imbeciles.
I read through all the comments and these two just cracked me up. I would say that men who don’t raise their own kids aren’t “real men,” in that they haven’t taken responsibility for themselves. But raising someone else’s kids? To quote It’s Always Sunny, “Bro, this isn’t a morality contest”. I had a high school friend that married a girl two years out of high school, and is raising a kid that isn’t his. All I can think about the wife is “Damaged goods man, damaged goods.” You know when you go to the store, and there’s only two of something left, but one of them has already been opened? Or better yet, when one gallon of milk expires the next day, and the other gallon expires in a week? It’s like that. There’s plenty of fish in the sea. I don’t get why the hell any single man would ever sign up to raise somebody else’s kids. Like one of the other poster’s says, you’re better off trying to achieve sainthood via volunteer work and being a role model for your nieces/nephews (which is what I’m doing). I suspect that the meme stems from women trying to keep down cognitive dissonance (it’s funny how women will never even admit that they chose wisely; if he’s such a jerk, why’d you breed with him?). I realize this is a rant, but this was a good article.
*unwisely
Thinking of having kids in America? Watch this video from minute 51:
Great article! Many other articles saying the same thing have anonymous comments with men and women saying that they would never admit it to anyone else but if they could do it all over again, they would choose not to have children. Fundamentally I understand it completely, youve got to be insane to want kids… like bored with life and incapable of developing a passion. I hope to see these comments fill up with radical honesty that can only come out under the guise of anonymity.
Since I have determined kids to be a death sentence for any kind of personal freedom, I have virtually ruled out the idea.
Most parents are unhappy because they project their own hopes and dreams on to their kids and they are disappointed when those kids don’t live up to their expectations. Thus those parents that are happy with their kids are a minority and are those who truly wanted them and agreed to share the burden.
But for the rest of us that realize kids wouldn’t bring much satisfaction even if they are brilliant having kids becomes, or should become, a deal breaker. To me at least it is a dealbreaker because, and I might be biased, I believe that avoiding motherhood is even more rewarding than avoiding fatherhood.
This is Return of Kings, not Jezecunt. Bye.
Excuse me, but are you talking to me “dude”? Because I don’t talk to dudes, boys or lonely wankers.
And ffs, Jezebel is just a boring site with some news and some cat videos. It’s not the feminist center you guys think it is. It’s more like an internet cosmo.
Anyways, too many jesters on Return of kings
There’s never too much of the Jester.
Too many dried cunts named CarolinePK. Go back to Cosmo.
This site is becoming totally lame. Now we have women, moms, dads with kids posting here. Can someone with some web skills make a decent site where we can get away from these all these lame bitches and moms and dads?? Its like they so feel their input is so valuable they hound us wherever we go for acceptance. Talk about narcissistic…
Being a father is rewarding for most Men. Some don’t like it because they aren’t suited to it, which is fine, but it’s generally one of life’s great pleasures. Having done it I can report this to you and you can consider it or not. If you don’t have kids you’ll probably miss out. I don’t need your acceptance; I’m good.
mgtowforums – females and manginas not allowed.
Fair point and most people don’t realize that if they didn’t marry and have offspring, they would have more time, money, energy and resources to achieve and pursue their personal happiness.
There are plenty of successful professional women that live the luxury lifestyle without any children. Bad for society, but government should know people operate on self-interest first.
That’s why the world’s baby factories are poor countries. Those people never even heard of self-improvement or have time to think about what’s better : family or career? So society is going to suffer by losing smart potential parents
GO AWAY CUNT. YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE
Oh my gosh he said he wants to rape me! Oh gosh, what to do?! If only he had balls I could kick but he doesn’t! I’m in danger!
But really now, who are you again? The site owner? Some internet authority? Or a frustrated lady with a penis that thinks that because he reads articles from the manosphere he is also like the good men that write those articles. Lame
ha you would like that
I am the guy who can find your IP adress and locate your home. From there the fun really begins. I can get your name, employement history, phone number your relatives info and just fuck with your whole world.
Keep posting in this comment section. I will make a promise to devote 30 minutes a day for the next month to fucking with you.
You are a boob. If you have to resort to such threats, you have admitted you have no power. At this point following through on such a threat would be easy to prosecute. Not to mention the classy rape talk. What would your dad say?
Yes more primitive agricultural societies need as many physical labor and new hands they can get to maintain the farm.
As society becomes modernized and highly skilled/specialized, more investment is needed per offspring to ensure success.
Transhumanism will allow people to live potentially forever by merging with machines and totally making having children unnecessary.
Thank you sir.:)
I’d settle things with CarolinePK the honorable way: a medieval spike shield duel!
Who needs IP tracking and all that….
Have you ever been to a third-world country? There are many people in those countries that are far more into fitness, culture and their society than you might think. And unlike here, their women dont hate men.
I thought all she needs to do is e-mail HR
Banned.
Good thing I’m trained in sword combat then:)
Wow, then can u name a few such countries?
You’re on ! I believe we each have 6 weeks to prepare, then…
Yes but even if I win it wouldn’t be a real victory for me. Even if I have the capacity to beat a man I mustn’t show it. I’ll bat my eye lashes for you n we’ll have peace
I think my ego can handle it…besides, the shields look pretty cool, you have to admit (Google “Talhoffer Spiked Shield” and you’ll see what I mean)…
When I hit 30 my life was amazing. Travelling, multiple girlfriends, getting drunk and doing whatever the hell I wanted. 5 years later and I am completely bored of it all. I am bored of my own company. I am bored of juggling my lifestyle like I am playing out somekind of kind of adventure game where I never actually win anything. Bored of approaching girls that remind me of other girls I have already banged. I cannot deal with anymore broken promises, broken hearts or having anymore one night stands with yet another 7.
It becomes harder to live in the moment and you start taking things for granted and everything that is amazing stops being amazing.
Then all of a sudden the idea of having a LTR and a couple of kids running around is very appealing and fills you with a sense of wholesomeness. Something else to look forward to… a new challenge and some kind of stability that might just do you the world of good.
Just make sure you have lived a little first, but no way can I see myself doing the same thing I am doing now in 10 years time. The very thought terrifies me.
Heh. My experience exactly. By 32 or so bachelor living got hollow. My 50 year old bachelor buddies were SO FUCKING BORING and I didn’t want to end up like them. That’s when I decided to find a wifey. But I would never, never do that until I was ready to. Also had a lot of money saved up, that is pretty key. And I didn’t even bother with former girlfriends as wife material. I started fresh.
Thats funny. From everything I see around me the married with kids guys look miserable. Always whining and complaining about having to do stuff they really dont want to do. My life may be boring but I like it that way. Very quiet, peaceful and private.
You can almost always point out a single mother on the dating sites. They look tired and a little dead in the eyes. Lol. I don’t know if it is the same for men, but most fathers I know do not seem super happy about having kids to support. It would be a huge lifestyle change and energy drain.
The problem with kids is, that they take a lot of time. People working on a job, have little time. Hence the drained feeling and looks.
I dont work an 8-5 (or worse) job so I have no problem spending a few hours a day to set things straight in the house with wife and kids. If you dont have the time, you are risking divorce, drama and this certain “hollow look”.
Key is to set yourself up FIRST (yes I mean cash wise) and THEN get a family.
As a non-father, who realizes how many benefits to being non-father there are as far as freedom goes, etc….one huge fear I have is fear of regretting of not having children, but realizing this a little too late. Some say that having children is the most (or may the only) meaningful legacy we leave in this world, besides perhaps some of us who happened to be outstanding artists. What do you have to say about that?
I’d say a more meaningful legacy is to concentrate on nephews if you have them, or choose to be a mentor to younger guys and impart Red Pill wisdom when they’re at an age when they need it. Be the “fun” uncle. and a role model to them for how to be a successful male in your 20s and 30s. In today’s world, they shouldn’t be thinking of marriage until they’re at least 30 anyway.
As many ‘spherians out there can attest, having an absent or a weak father is one of the worst things that has happened to them as men, because they have had no guidance to navigate the treacherous world that we find ourselves in.
Writing a blog or a book can impart more wisdom to more men over time than it can having just one kid. Trust me, reading classic literature and philosophy provided me with more insight over time than other men did.
Thank you for your reply. Very interesting perspective. I know I could never know what it’s like to be a father unless I become one, but the fear of feeling like I missed out on something very basic and very fundamental is concerning.
John Steinbeck had children. Can anybody name them with out going to Wikipedia? John Steinbeck also wrote timeless powerful literature that has enriched many many lives. Can anyone name his books? Grapes of Wroth, Of Mice and Men, Cannery Row. His most meaningful legacy was his literature. Just as john lennons was his music. And what about the legacy hitlers father vested upon the world? That, is what I have to say, about that
Please remember quantitative easing.
Inflation is theft of money you save and it is higher than official gov figures.
I’m in the same boat. Only this year I started giving settling down serious thought. But it takes two to tango and I’m no fool. It’s a risk no matter what but I want to make sure it’s the right risk.
But you’re right, after a while the bachelor life gets stale. I can’t stomach going out and drinking as much because I want to be healthy. I can’t stand the same conversations with countless women either. The sex? I’d rather get some sleep. Nobody blows me away anymore.
One thing I won’t regret, is that I’m at a point now where I know if it happened I will feel as though I did live it up alone as long as I felt I needed to. I passed the age in my 20s of fearing getting locked down too early. It won’t happen now. There isn’t as much downside in the regret column as there once could have been.
I also won’t fear being alone, if I ever find myself in that position in the long future. Which is extremely likely.
So why not stop getting drunk and chasing women?
I hate those things too but it never occurred to me to add insult to injury by getting married.
Find a hobby instead.
How do you know the thought of having a family isn’t just one more juggle trick? One more activity in the aesthetic sphere of being; feverish “doing” and endless becoming ? Seeking fulfillment outside yourself will always have the same result. Moving to the “ethical sphere” of existence takes more than getting someone pregnant. In truth, living with someone will make such a transition almost impossible.
you know, it`s easy for you to start preaching to us. you`ve been atop the mountain, you lived it up. most people around here are only just discovering the benefits of red-pill living. you should not dispense subjective advice as all-purpose truths, who knows what hard-to-replicate circumstances pushed you into this regret-filled stance?
i admit that this is a very personal decision and that endless bachelorhood is not for everybody, but if you really wanna play the sage, you should encourage everyone to live through those highs and those downs, and MAKE UP THEIR OWN GODDAMN MINDS if it`s a sustainable lifestyle over the long haul. right now, what you are accomplishing is merely scaring some kids that are debating whether this hedonistic approach is all it`s cracked up to be, and pushing them back into blue-pill territory.
Exactly right mate. I absolutely would say do not settle down or have kids before the age of 36. THese are your prime years. My argument was about ever having kids at all. 38 – 40 is actually my target age.
There was a time when I truly believed I would be able to sustain this kind of lifestyle forever, and that really excited me. My friends with babies were jealous because I was living the dream whilst they were changing nappies.
But the truth is the bachelor lifestyle can be a lonely place and your old bones and syndical mind will eventually overpower any desire you have to chase women. I have met a lot of guys in their late 40s doing what i am doing now… and I don’t want to be like them.
To repeat… I am not saying choose kids over having fun and living your life… but to say no to children into your late 30s early 40’s is foolhardy. What else you gonna do… Hang out with 20 year old mates down the local night club?
The problem is when you reach that age you have too much to lose.
You are less horny and don’t always want a woman around bothering you with stupid things.
Then you have to think if she divorces me at some point I’ll be too old to start over.
It’s a bad idea all around.
If you absolutely want kids, have them when you are 16, that way when you are 36 you can wash your hands of it.
Exactly. Why risk the golden years?!
Wow, chill out baby.
Nobody here is “preaching”. We are all expressing our opinions as men should. Any young man on this site is going to get a full set of information and will make up his own mind.
what the fuck, did you just call me baby? what`s next, asking me out for a sword-fight? gay..
on topic: your contention that young men think for themselves is ignorant. young men typically look around for examples to follow because you need a certain amount of life experience to be able to develop rational opinions. furthermore the ability to think critically appears in the mid-to-late 20s for the vast majority of men.
Wow, you really need to relax. “Baby” isn’t an insult, it’s like saying “dude”.
Then you said: “your contention that young men think for themselves is ignorant”. Wow. Pretty amazing thing to say.
How do the english put it?
Ah yes. “The grass is always greener on the other side”
The problem with a family is that SHE will become a MOTHER… and if you are not careful she will become YOUR MOTHER… with all her bad family issues mixed in…..
The girl you meet is very very different to the MOTHER you will live with long term.
The reason married men with kids are all miserable, is because the women with kids is massively empowered and in charge of the nest… You will be submissive to her when it comes to childcare especially when they are younger than 5-6 years…. It’s well known in nature that females with young are the most vicious….. even ducks and sparrows will attack to protect their young….
If you are not careful you end up in a One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest type situation with this messed up dictatorial female shrink wrapping your life….
And while the bar and the bang may get boring… the tedium of school runs and disney themed birthday parties… not to mention 3am vomiting and nappy changing… is not exactly a barrel of laughs either….
If you are bored as a single with all those possibilities… you will be suicidal as a married man……
Go trek across Antarctica, learn to base jump, cayak the canadian rapids, go shoot a moose, start a fortune 500 comapny or set up your very own brothel… use some imagination… because trust me… blowing up the paddling pool every weekend all summer for 10 years running is not going to do anything for you …
and you will be paying for it ALL!!!!
“And while the bar and the bang may get boring… the tedium of school runs and disney themed birthday parties… not to mention 3am vomiting and nappy changing… is not exactly a barrel of laughs either….
If you are bored as a single with all those possibilities… you will be suicidal as a married man……”
Very good point. Having kids in your life, makes your life their life and for good reason. But if Guys think life is boring doing whatever they want, when they want. I agree that being stuck in a life that watching My Little pony and changing diapers is going to break them.
Check these out
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1191367/The-fatherhood-taboo-Men-finally-break-silence-potential-misery-dad.html
http://forums.menshealth.com/topic/63643898167212688
http://www.daddyfiles.com/hate-newborns/
just bear in mind, that there is no where more lonely, stressful, depressing or demanding than inside a family situation that is not working properly…. kids are a 24/7 commitment….
It’s not the yes or no of it that is important…. it’s important to realise that having a family is as challenging as setting out on a Himalayan summit expedition….
You can’t stop half way and decide to give up….
I don’t think this author has kids or knows how to construct and run a modern family. There is no greater bond than a parent-child relationship and it is the only relationship that starts at 100% love and admiration (by the child). You have more influence and control over this relationship than any other relationship. It can only diminish because you don’t invest the time in it. And it seems ironic that there are so many men who provide thoughtful guidance to complete strangers on this site but who do not want to grow, nurture and develop a great mind in this world that is there own flesh and blood, and who may never know the pride and joy of saying, “yes, that was my son.”
Yes, you should absolutely see the world and sow your wild oats in as many fields as you wish. Yes you should create and build your own empire. But then who are you going to pass on this mantle? Bob in accounting?
I’m not pushing marriage or children on anyone. But to dismiss its joy as cognitive dissonance just sounds lame to those of us who can manage our multiple, complex relationship in life. Seriously, it’s not that hard. And to its credit, this site can help you figure who you are, what you want and when to do it. It can certainly help get you laid and improve your lifestyle. But it’s not the place for parental advice.
I have a 60 year old neighbor, retired police officer. Alpha male. Went to law school and business school after serving as a detective on the force. Set up practice in NYC (using nypd contacts), then set up a branch in Korea and Dubai doing security and forensics consulting. He has traveled all over Latin America, Asia and Middle East, consulting, making money, fucking women, making international partnerships. And he NEVER married and never wanted to. He is an inspiration to me. He warned me not to end up like the loser fathers in the neighborhoods whose lives revolved around their lawns and ungrateful wife and kids.
Sell your company, send me all the money and start from zero. Great adventure lies ahead 😛
The grass is always greener aint it? Thats your mind playing tricks on ya, you think life will be different, better, your not exactly sure how(thats how emotions work, vague, with no specifics, no facts, no logic, why will your life be better?) Trust me, after marriage/kids/house life wont be better
I am 40 and without kids, though I live with some (I am kinda a guardian/Cool Uncle). I know what you felt and it passes one way or the other. Many men will take the Wife and Kids route (this is a limiting and one way choice), others will meander some and try new things in life, then suddenly life moves to the next phase and you are excited about life again. The feeling of boredom happens anytime one doesn’t get new stimulii in their world regularly. Most people experience it around 25 (post school but not quite fully in the working world), again somewhere around 40 (mid life crisis) and again at retirement ages (empty nest is the common term).
My observations from intimately watching a “good” family function that kids are a life changing event. Yes, one might find fulfillment and legacy in those offspring, but honestly that doesn’t seem to help in a parent’s happiness until they are out of the house. And the daily struggle to feed, cloth, shelter, and actually raise them to be responsible adults is a Sisyphean task. Go read some of the “I hate being a father” confession blogs. They really make you think.
I will take a comfortable retirement and maybe a bit of boredom over the constant, incessant neediness of a child every time. Unless I can be like a King of the past where I sire them and they are handled by nannies usually. Then returned to me around 13 to further instruct in the ways of the world. Then I *might* agree.
Why would you assume the only alternative to the life you have now is to have kids? You could start a business, or change careers, devote yourself to a cause you believe in, anything that means something to you personally. Your problem is that your life lacks meaning, not that it lacks babies.
Im 34, no kids, no gf, wife or etc. I would like children in the future (Mom) wants grandkids, but im not impregnating any of these cunts anytime soon. Fatherhood, although has its benefits is too risky in today’s financial and P.C. climate.
The answer is single father surrogacy.
Hire an egg donor and hire a surrogate mother (“gestational carrier”). They sign away any parental rights.
You are left over as the sole parent.
Paying for a nanny, driver, etc. is a lot cheaper than giving half your salary to some wench you hate for your time as a married couple + 20 years of alimony.
I enjoyed this article, but I’m not convinced….I’ve been pursuing the bachelor life since college and have achieved some of my life goals thus far (starting a small business, pursuing hobbies like music, etc).
But when I see friends with children, I find myself craving a similar life….I don’t listen to societal or familial babble about the need “man up” and settle down…but nevertheless i feel that urge. Is it biology? Or just the fact that we’re pack animals – and that transient relationships with random bimbi won’t ultimately bring happiness?
in watching elder relatives pass away, i have also been struck by how their kids have cared for them to the very end. and i’ve wondered, in turn, who would be there for me when i’m sick and dying?
and so you think that giving away all those decades of your time, the stress and the aggravation, handing away your personal freedom and not to mention the enormous sums of money is worth it, for the CHANCE that your kids will turn out ok and that they`ll care for you in your final days? really? seems like a longshot to me, but hey it`s your life..
On the other hand, if it weren’t for my son, I would never have felt the burning desire to pass the torch of masculine wisdom on to the next generation.
That goal required me to become a better man, so that I had something worthwhile to pass on.
Turns out, on honest reflection, I discovered I wasn’t nearly as wise, nor as masculine, as I thought I was. And so, here I am, learning all over again.
Am I a better man because I had a son? Absolutely.
Yes, problem is … that the men can give up having kids…. but the women and gay / lesbian crowd will continue….
Couple of generations and the world will look like that movie… Idiocracy…
Family is tough, but it teaches you to be a leader, to hold down a woman and to have authority. It’s highly motivational, since you have to support them and provide for them, which is expensive, but not impossible…
If you set your sights on a bachelor pad, you will find that goal is achieved. If you set your sites on a 10 acre 10 bedroom family home, with nannies, servants etc…mistress on the side in a nice city pad…. perhaps you can achieve that goal ?
“Am I a better man because I had a son? Absolutely.”
that may be, but do factor in the cost of missed opportunities. consider the possibility that the single version of you would have soared even higher than your current state, precisely because he did not encumber himself by spawning.
Soared higher than what?
I hear what you’re saying, and it’s entirely possible I could have done more activities, been more places, met more women, made more money without a kid. But that misses the point entirely. To me, being a good dad is the ultimate male success. There is nothing higher than that.
For instance, I quit my job after 10 years of working for other men, and launched my own business, only because my son was born. I wanted to teach him being a man meant steering your own ship. To gain the proper knowledge I needed to teach him what that meant, I realized I first needed to steer my own ship.
Similarly, I need to know how to teach him about women. Therefore, I need to learn about women. Therefore, here I am. If it weren’t for him, I might have stumbled through the rest of my life having never asked the right questions.
Fatherhood opened up a new way of thinking that I was physically incapable of prior to. Everything I do now… means something to someone. That’s heavy stuff, and takes manhood to an entirely new level.
Your mileage may vary.
hey, if you think it`s worth the wasted time, money, freedom, all the aggravation and the stress…then good for you. to each his own.
“If you do not believe in your own stock enough to wish to see the stock kept up then you are not good Americans, you are not patriots; and…I for one shall not mourn your extinction, and in such event I shall welcome the advent of a new race that will take your place, because you will have shown that you are not fit to cumber the ground.”
— Theodore Roosevelt, 1911
cited at: http://takimag.com/article/decline_and_fall_of_the_anglo_empire/
Granted, it’s a big risk today, to marry and have kids. But the risk of not doing so, is a 100% probability of extinction.
That’s a fantastic quote.
Slowly but surely, the unfit weed themselves out of the gene pool.
“the unfit weed themselves out of the gene pool.”
With welfare, food stamps and child support this is definately not the case. These men avoiding fatherhood are not doing so becuase they cant reproduce/get laid.. They just realize (intelligently) they can have a better life without kids. Its the dumb guys who refuse to wear condoms knock up chicks and then have to work at auto parts stores to pay for the kid that are reproducing. Basically the unfit are reproducing and the smart guys are delaying or avoiding having kids.
extinction from not having kids.
Lets examine that for a minute.
How many generations will you live on for?
Suppose you have a grandchild how much of a genetic contribution have you made to hime 25% Thats with 2 generations
Now once you reach great great grandchild (4 generations) your genetic contribution is only 6%
Its crazy to think you will make a big difference to the genes of your offspring because after several generations whatever contribution you made will be wiped out.
Unless your grand kids marry their cousins.
over a long enough time span, the extinction of humanity is guaranteed. IJS.
definitely true. but within our own lives, being surrounded by one’s own pack may bring happiness…
Or your pack turns on you, and destroys you. Ask any Divorced Dad who’s kids have been poisoned against him.
I just think articles like this are beneficial because they provide men the talking points to think criticially about fatherhood.
Many men just assume one day you are going to be a dad.
They never think there might be an alternative. In fact they never see the problems fatherhood might cause or the the realities associated with it.
Yes, I think that is more important than the to have kids or not argument…
That is a personal choice….
But the issue of fatherhood and thinking into it and discussing it… that is important… i was always in the NO camp… but the YES camp was never discussed….
That said… my father who seemed to really enjoy it… when I asked him… does it get easier as they get older…. he replied…. “no it just gets more expensive.”
Even if you plan to be a father, delay it for 5 to 10 years. Let’s enjoy the wailing and weeping and gnashing of teeth from imploding, childless femcunts; it’ll be much better than anything on teevee.
Evolution is very simple: Procreate and be the fit, or be childless and your genetic line is dead forever.
That simple.
There are words for not caring about the future of your species, race, or even your personal lineage: narcissism, solipsism, selfishness, childish, etc. Of course, these traits are compliments, not insults, in the modern West.
so having kids is just about a genetic line?
Yes.
Nature > “Journey to find yourself” or whatever faggotry modern society claims parenthood is about.
But if I can cuckhold alpha you and dupe you into raising my spawn without you realize it would make perfect evolutionary sense right?
That way I pass on my genes and not leave you the tab.
Oh wait we already do that via government.
The countless valid criticisms of how the West hates (white gentile) fathers don’t undo evolution.
Shittiness of family court, monetary inflation, shitty schools…..none of these things are stopping blacks and browns from breeding like rabbits. In evoution, that makes them the fit and whites worried about child support payments the unfit. Period.
We’ll fix the shitty system in time. But giving up on parenthood is giving up in the greatest manner possible.
But we have over population and offspring is unnecessary when we merge with machines at singularity by 2050. Parenthood is so 1920s and not cool.
NAMs (non-Asian minorities) is great for diversity and we should legalize all immigrants.
There is no fix, the tipping point was 2011 when NAM births replaced Caucasian births. White gentile will lose its majority by 2040.
You said it: “We” don’t have an overpopulation problem, “we” have an UNDERpopulation problem.
I’m speaking of whites and east Asians. (In Japan, I read that adult diapers are now outselling baby diapers.)
The third world hordes – blacks especially – move to our developed countries where our technology means their offspring aren’t limited by carrying capacity of the land, so they breed and breed and breed. Whites are just the opposite: we jerk off to fetish porn for hours, women stick giant electrified tubes of rubber up their cunts to their own fetish porn, and nobody makes babies.
Anyway….all of this is academic. The bottom line is that if an individual believes in evolution, he’d want to have children. Lots of ’em. Wishy-washy sociological theories don’t impact anything for me, personally.
As long as we have over population, we will have global warming, global poverty and war. To achieve world peace we should aim at a global population of 5 million.
No point having children when through transhumanism we can merge with machines to live forever.
Machines will wear out, but can be replaced. Biological reproduction is so primitive and for NAMs.
We are all immigrants here, one group doesn’t have more rights than others because in the USA we have equality under the law. African-Americans are great, they gave us Obama who is the best president ever.
There is no overpopulation. That is a myth, a BLUE PILL myth.
lol. I love hearing white males like you complain about the ‘black hordes’. After Europeans have raped several continents, and driven countless people into the abyss of non-existence, I find your belly-aching quite hilarious. Ebb and flow. The Universe hates imbalance. What you have done to others, they will in time do to you.
apart from the wetbacks… they get trucked home….
I am not trying to troll you, and maybe I am wrong in my understanding of the theory of Evolution, but the “survival of the fittest” isn’t the actual theory. It’s a shorthand for those that understand what was actually meant by “fittest”
http://evolution.about.com/od/NaturalSelection/a/Survival-Of-The-Fittest.htm
When talking about first and third worlds, one is talking about vastly different immediate environments which the “fittest” might mean more offspring, or maybe prolonged investment in one.
And within the context of this discussion, using evolution has the distinct ring of eugenics to most people.
Or you’re part of a family lineage that plays the “long game”.
We have people everywhere, and as 007’s M might notice, we are not florists. Our childless members serve other needs — among them are counted heads of current and historically significant institutions, as well as historians, scientists, merchants …
We’ve been maintaining and gathering influence for well over twelve hundred years.
We don’t worry about continuation of “the line” — it’s well established.
Worrying about these things seems like what Americans would call a “middle class concern”. Of course, we have other people worry about these things for us, as well as concerns about overpopulation and other narratives that serve useful purposes.
Insofar as genetic expression goes (puns intended), I would worry less about whether your partly damaged DNA will survive into the next millennium and more about what will happen when anyone can compile his own children without the need for such things as “surrogacy” …
God made man in his own image? It’s about time man took some responsibility for himself.
I’m not a dad (that I know of, har har). I just haven’t ever felt that pull. I figure you’ve got to really know that you want to have kids to pull the trigger. Sadly it’s a knee jerk thing a lot of guys go through because they think they’re supposed to. “Time to be a dad I guess….” Or they do it to fill a void, presumably for lack of a mission. (Unless that mission is to be a dad which is fine of course so long as a man is honest with himself.)
I figure if I get my shit together where I can afford to raise them AND afford for a wife to stay at home, then maybe I will consider having them. Better to go without and wonder what you’re missing then the other way around. I happen to enjoy solitude and didn’t even like having family pestering me when I was a kid.
Well said. These fucking idiots are their big “lineage preservation” talk; like something from the middle ages. The government has sold out the next three generations by going 16 trillion dollars into debt. We are an aging society that produces nothing of value except hamburgers and pushing numbers around. I couldnt stand my family growing up and cant stand them now. And ill be damned if I bring some kid into this world and subject him to the misery I endured in the feminazi PC society.
you said it, brother. it`s nauseating to see supposed ‘free-thinkers’ succumbing to social programming.
Childlessness = Impotence.
Countless studies link fertility and virility, in every way imaginable. (Ex.: Vasectomies lower testosterone, which lowers sex drive.)
There is a great science fiction book called ‘Children of Men’ by a British woman, PD James. In this future society, nobody can have children:
“One might have imagined that with the fear of pregnancy permanently removed, and the unerotic paraphernalia of pills, rubber and ovulation arithmetic no longer necessary, sex would be freed for new and imaginative delights. The opposite has happened. Even those men and women who would normally have no wish to breed apparently need the assurance that they could have a child if they wished. Sex totally divorced from procreation has become almost meaninglessly acrobatic.”
Does that mean beta who gets cuckolded by me three times = childless = impotent?
lolol
Kinda bizarre comment, but most likely, yeah.
Do a personal survey: Look around you at the “free spirits” who are in their 40s with no kids. See how often they have sex. Rarely. They don’t even WANT to have sex.
Childlessness = sexlessness.
Those Darwinian dead ends without children are “free” to guzzle booze and watch every TV series known to man, but their wombs are barren and sterile, and their cocks are limp and lifeless.
By 2050 we will have singularity and computer chips should be powerful enough to backup my personality hence self. So in many ways by merging with machines, one can live forever by replacing everything with machines.
Who needs kids? The poor and stupid.
Your arguing from the standpoint of a woman
Men are in no rush to have kids
Men with game/money can get laid well into old age
You look at things from a white knight standpoint in that life should be lived on a woman´s terms.
You’re oversimplifying in the wrong direction and still see childlessness as a negative for a man. George Clooney and myself are only two examples who humiliate that point you’re trying to make just perfectly.
Childlessness for a WOMAN is a disaster. For a man it is the only way to live. And don’t kid yourself, married dads are a lot more sexless and impotent than you care to admit. The married father is the most sexless and lonely demographic you can find.
Married dads who contracept/sterilize with their wives are sexless. We Catholics who take the children God blesses us with are not sexless.
I would bet my husband has more sex in a week than any of you men here. Why? Because he is strong, competent, and the rockin’ – est husband and father, so I can’t say no 🙂
Using George Clooney is an example of the ‘apex fallacy’. I wanted to state this in my earlier comment but didn’t want to make it too long. Clooney is a 1%er. He is in a league of his own. He has money, status, looks, and…hair late into his 50’s. He is most definitely not the norm, nor what most guys will be at his age.
He sounds like a gay fag to me. I have no child nor wish for one. And I wish I had no sex drive and wish I was infertile and impotent. Sex is just a base animalistic gutteral function that is messy, a waste of time and unproductive.
Clooney is so obviously gay…. I thought you guys were ‘redpill’… go take another one… take the whole bottle…. and stop picking an closet gay ‘actor’ for your “masculine” articles… HE IS AN ACTOR doh !
Carefully sweetie / You would LOSE that bet. But we understand why you need to believe it and convince him of that too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SxuOgczIeo
(fast forward to 4:00)
60% of married women ARE NOT fucking their husbands. Then you have cuckholdry and bitches like these.
Married women who pretend their husbands get more sex than unmarried men are fucking LIARS. The paternity fraud epidemic is proof of that too. Add that to the fact that 70% of marriages are SEXLESS – and suddenly you’re not “the example” anymore.
A “good” married man (like you go on about) could even save HIS WIFE’S LIFE with his OWN KIDNEY and she will still not fuck him and bang her physical therapist instead.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/01/08/new-york-man-demands-15m-from-estranged-wife-for-kidney/
Stop using yourself as “the example” when I just gave you plenty that negate your bullshit on the spot. “BET MY HUSBAND GETS MORE SEX THAN YOU!!!!!!”
Please. Sell it to somebody else.
Doesn’t matter. Take George Clooney out of it and consider that by the time the average UNMARRIED (no kids) working male is 50….. he will have +$350,000 more in the bank than any married chump.
It costs $200,000 to raise ONE kid to 18 – so $350K is conservative. And keep the money for an engagement ring… because 2-3 months of after-tax/expense
Imagine what kind of TOP-FLIGHT VAGINA you can score for that kind of coin – over a couple of decades. You could bang 21 year old hotties of your choice which would make any “wife” look like a dumpy sack of potatoes.
You don’t need to be George Clooney to get more first class tail than any married dad. Guaranteed.
Closets are for brooms. Even if George Clooney is a peter puffer (like you care to pretend) he’s still getting more hairy ass than any closetted married man. So you really don’t have a point.
Yes I agree, but there are major problems in taking some ‘players player’ whose career relies on him portraying that role in real life…. to get work as an actor… he is a very suave and sophisticated actor….
not to mention massively cashed up….
So you just cannot take icons from pop culture that are largely a marketing illusion and try to use that as any kind of role model….
Comparing yourself with George Clooney is about as sensible as comparing yourself with Tony Stark… both are basically fictional characters, even though the former lives in the world around us.
Bleak, sir. Very, very bleak.
Stroppy, holier-than-thou harridan claims to put out more than Mary Magdalene, yet manages to find ample time to troll men’s interest blog. (Tingles!) Appeals to moral authority of institution that condones and covers up child molestation. Awesome, thanks for sharing your wisdom, sweetheart.
Here’s an article from a British woman who bought into this “No children!” bullshit. Now, at 44, she regrets it greatly. Her genetic line is dead, for all time. But at least she had the dignity to say, “I was a fool and I’m sorry.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2386400/Kate-Spicer-Any-woman-says-shes-happy-childless-liar-fool.html
“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”
Divine judgment is always fair and balanced.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/10/12/why-having-kids-is-not-a-measure-of-a-mans-alphaness/
Would you mind citing these studies? While there has been a decline in the testosterone in men over the last few generations, it seems our modern sedentary lifestyles have more to do with that something like vasectomies.
http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/18/modern-life-rough-on-men/
And it would seem that fatherhood really softens up the wood.
http://healthland.time.com/2011/09/13/why-do-dads-have-lower-levels-of-testosterone/
As a happy and happily married father of three, I cannot really argue against the post. Just about everything said is true.
Fatherhood is not for the timid or lazy. The rewards are long-term and vicarious, and if you screw it up it can become a living hell. Done properly, fatherhood is a fine art that produces high-quality human beings. Done improperly, it produces C-grade strippers and chronic wastoids.
I’m not encouraging everyone to go out there and do it — hell, if you’re smart you’ll push like hell for Vasogel to be approved and then enjoy a blissful 10-year long period of temporary sterility, banging everything in a skirt. Then you’ll have the delightful pleasure of having whatever woman is interested in a commitment with you, based on her desire to procreate, be forced to justify her worthiness before you get the thing reversed. With Vasogel, suddenly a woman’s reproductive freedom is limited to whichever dude she can convince to get the reversal . . . no more “honey, I’m late!” discussions. And if she does turn up pregnant, it ain’t yours.
For those who are committed to fatherhood, I encourage — nay, urge you to study the matter seriously. Understand what it means, what your responsibilities are, what is expected of you and what resources you must develop to do it well. Then arm yourself with the skills you need, find and carefully vet a suitable mother, and give it your best shot. For the rest of you, thanks for your contribution to the tax base.
I’m not being facetious here. If you don’t want it enough to quit a job over it, don’t do it. And if you aren’t planning on having kids, getting married is something you should reserve for your 40s.
And if you haven’t made up your mind . . . well, your sperm is viable into your 70s. You got PLENTY of time. And every year a new crop of potential moms ripens. Take your time. Do it right. Or don’t do it at all.
Fatherhood is the greatest challenge. Nowadays moreso than any other time in history for the reasons you outlined. Prioritizing pussy and ‘hobbies’ over your posterity is not some red-pill-victory but the ultimate expression of depraved modern self-negation. Do you think those women extolling the virtues of childlessness are traditional feminine women? Or feminist butch-dykes? You’re making bedfellows with the people you purport to despise in a genetic grave.
Both paths are equally valid, equally red pill. I can respect a man willing to see his genetic line die rather than submit to a less-than-ideal match and produce low quality offspring. But I also hope he respects the tremendous undertaking I have taken on enough to support it in a helpful manner. After all, I don’t do my job right and it’s my kid stealing his mid-life-crisis sports car. By mutually supporting both paths, we all win. In fact, everyone wins but feminists.
If other “depraved” men fail to reproduce, that means less competition for your superior genetics. From your perspective, is this not a good thing? So why are you here arguing for red pill fecundity? What’s the real reason?
what is self-negating about following your own desires? if anything, it`s more self-affirming than anything else. as has been reported ad-nauseam, kids are a sinkhole – for money, stress, time, freedom. all for the POSSIBILITY that you`re raising upstanding citizens. if you think that`s worth the risk, hey i also got some magic beans to sell…..
Self-affirming? Explain to me how following your own ‘desires’ into a lifetime of meaningless sex and ‘hobbies’ is more self-affirming than reproducing. The only other people who are pursuing a lifetime of meaningless sex and ‘hobbies’ are feminist butch-dykes and you’re trying to convince me to follow their example. There is nothing more self-affirming than producing genetic copies of yourself. I’m not raising my kids to be ‘upstanding citizens,’ whatever the fuck that means. I’m raising them to be like me. It’s what my father did, and his grandfather before him, and his before him… I’m not going to crash the billion-year old genetic train into a cement wall of modern solipsism just so I can get a few more decades of hook-ups and enough money for a sports car.
i guess we have different definitions of the term then. to me, self-affirming is any action that brings me pleasure in one form or another. pussy, money, freedom and time for myself is what makes me happy. i can`t agree that spawning is self-affirming because you`re not actually helping yourself, you`re helping your family lineage, your genes, the human race etc. however you personally are hindered from enjoying life because of a huge increase in responsibilities – you gotta care for the little sucker, right? and last i checked, more responsibility means less freedom.
I´m 38 and a father of 2 boys, 5 and 6 yrs.
I agree with some of the points of the article and although me and my wife have a good, healthy relationship having kids isn´t all that good. The minute you become a father a lot of your life is lost and your desires have to take the backseat. That being said I still think the positives outweight the negatives. It is a great feeling and experience to have your own offspring and help them nagigate through life.
If I was childless I would probably live a very different, but in some ways better life up to my 45-50:s. I truly believe the latter part of your life will be dull, empty and lonley if you never had kids. I look forward to spend my old days surrounded by a large family with grandkids.
(Excuse my english, I´m swedish)
I dont. I plan on living alone with no wife, no gf, no kids and very few friends right up until I die. My city in the USA is a cold, desolate and unfriendly place. Im not worried or scared at all. Being afraid is for pussies.
By the way, it will be much more fun when your boys get to be about 8 years old. That’s when they automatically pull away from mom and start wanting to spend more time with Men. Your wife if she is rational will welcome this change.
My son is now 10 and we are camping, backpacking, and having fun all the time. Here in the US we have Boy Scouts and other groups for young men (although the feminist assholes are trying to destroy these organizations of course).
I’m starting to notice that shift already as my 6yo is starting to idolise me. I’m really looking forward to being able to do other stuff than kids play.
/skallagrimson
Also, Fathers and fatherhood are the biggest threat to feminism, bar none. You can’t have Patriarchy without fathers . . . get rid of dads, get rid of patriarchy.
Fellow fathers, it’s time to re-found the patriarchy. Non-fathers, while we respect and encourage your fatherless ways, we also encourage you to support our attempts to instill masculine wisdom and resources in the next generation of men. We need not be at odds here — we can be allies. Hell, I would be a much poorer dad if it wasn’t for my childless male friends. And nothing pisses off a feminist more than hearing “You don’t treat a lady that way, Son.” And then explain to him the difference between a woman and a lady. Really. I’ve gotten into shouting matches before over such an innocuous thing. It is delicious.
When women can use child protective agencies/law enforcement/courts to their favor how much of a threat is fatherhood to feminists today? If anything avoiding fatherhood is a logically decision based on the realities of our society.
As I said, it’s not for the timid. If you’re afraid, then don’t do it. Some of us just aren’t going to let ourselves get pushed out of our reproductive strategy like that.
In other words, “man up?” Jeez, that sounds familiar.
Responding to a man’s rational argument by impugning his masculinity is a chick move. Ghey.
Sorry bro, the manly thing do has always been to kill your oppressors or find a new place to live with new (and better) ruler. It has not been merely to procreate and hope for the best.
That sounds exactly like the kind of taunting I used to get as a school kid when my friends were trying to convince me to do something stupid. More wordy, sure, but the content was basically the same.
It didn’t work then either.
You’re going to have to come up with something better than a slightly more erudite version of “What are ya, chicken?” to sell fatherhood to this crowd. Leave this weaksauce at home and bring your A game.
It’s not taunting.
You are suffering under the illusion that I want them to breed. Those who self-select out of the gene pool do humanity a favor. In other words, I want there to be less people in the world. I just want more of them to be Ironwoods.
I don’t want to be persuasive on this matter, because I’m dead serious: it’s not for the timid or weak. Fatherhood is a sacred responsibility, and I’d rather reserve my A game for that than for convincing other dudes what a swell time it is. Fatherhood is a vocation, something that the wise study for and the uncommitted should avoid. I’d rather see a sea of life-long bachelors than a lake full of lackluster fathers.
But there need be no animosity. Men less-inclined to want to be dads make those of us who are far more attractive on the SMP. The intelligent Beta and the scheming Sigma can use the hordes of clueless Deltas and fawning Gammas as cover while we weed and vet potential moms. With y’all screening for us, we can filter through the unworthy and find the rare gems who have a decent chance of building a strong family and producing high-quality children.
Feminism is also helpful for this purpose.
It depends upon your perspective. If you want to spend your life killing and dying, that’s great. If you want to spend your life raising other lives, then things get messy. There is nothing unmanly about fatherhood.
And don’t bro me if you don’t know me.
Ian … I don’t see how the laws will improve with rampant illegal immigration. Did you see Phyllis Schlafly’s article today on illegal immigrants and how they are like 70% Democrat in their voting habits? They will get played by the Dems and expand the block of anti-father voters.
I think you might be confused about what the word “taunting” means.
If you’re not trying to persuade people to choose fatherhood I’m interested why you’ve written SO MANY words appearing to advocate for it. Literary self assurance that your choices are correct? Are you looking for validation from a echo chamber that agree with your every word? That betrays uncertainty. Careful, I read somewhere that fatherhood is a vocation not suited to the uncommitted.
Anyway, doesnt matter. Regardless of WHY you’re writing what you’re writing, your motivations arent what I was commenting on. Your tactics were. Specifically, the “If you don’t share my opinions its obviously because you have some embarrassing personal deficiency” tactic, that you just doubled down on in your response. Where have I seen that used before?
It seems that Feminism is helpful to you for more than just mate filtering… you’re also using it to source your debating tactics.
Kudos Gentlemen. But to both of you..
These Comments are far more often the reason I am at this site than the actual article.
If you’re so convinced the Anglosphere is a dangerous threat to your fatherhood, learn a foreign language and start a new life abroad in a country where you can raise your children right with a traditional wife. What? Does that sound like too much discomfort and trouble for you? If you’re American it’s, literally, exactly what your forefathers did hundreds of years ago. Men so eager to give up on their posterity are more sickening than feminists.
So is not playing so you don’t lose.
When feminists see proud, outstanding fathers who take an active and proactive role in the lives of their children, and a dominant role in the family, it makes them seethe with a burning passion. Mostly because they usually missed all that in their own lives. When they see those men who have made wise decisions about their choice of wives and build solid marriages with a dominant male in charge, there is a combination of loathing and envy that knocks their poor hamsters off their wheels.
When they see professional women who proudly admit that motherhood and family are their vocation, and their job is just a job that can be left or gained at any time to further that end, it undercuts their leaning in. When they see wives who admit that they depend upon and need their husbands, and look to them for guidance, leadership, and management, it drives them crazy.
Feminism’s power is in the ability of a woman to practice hypergamy. Happily married couples with quality families, with a strong paternal figure at the heart of it, threaten that power. You want to hurt feminism? Rebuild a higher-quality patriarchy.
That’s how we win. Because in a few years, feminists will stop breeding altogether. Leaning in makes you a rich aunt, not a beloved and cherished mother.
;)) I think real feminists are pleased to see a father raising his son properly. It would give them hope that in the future men and women won’t have such tense relationships and there wouldn’t be any more talk about gender wars. But you would piss off some man-haters aka those women that think of men as the enemy that needs to be defeated by all means no matter how dirty.
We need better daughters too, not just better sons
Ah . . . no.
Indeed, thanks to feminism, it is almost assured that things are only going to get worse. We’ve devoted 40 years to improving our daughters at the expense of our sons. “Real” feminists cover a lot of territory, including some who openly advocate eventually eliminating men from the human race. Yes, there are genocide feminists out there. It isn’t all about equal pay for equal work. And when women continue to give such viciousness cover by trying to put a good spin on an ideology gone bad, it taints you all.
I know there are such women out there, basically 90% of all feminists but I have to keep in mind that the original plan was good, a bit idealist but good. Like communism
Nope, there can be no healthy relations between men/women so long as feminists keep pushing the idea of male privilege while also telling women to be friends/lovers with men. The original plan WAS to express women’s deep-seated disappointment with men.
The whole “real” feminists v. “Man-hating” feminists is illusory. Feminism is little more than another manifestation of the cuture of narcissism.
Culture is based on narcissism. Human narcissism.
As for feminists, I believe they are necessaryin ccountrieswhere there ttruly is oppression. In the western world… problems are smaller than feminists like to admit
Why is a broad posting about fatherhood? Go to one of the “safe” places on the web for chicks and stop attention whoring here. We do not need your input on fatherhood.
I bet your dad didn’t raise you without your mother’s input.
And trust me, this isn’t a dangeroussite
If we would live our lives thinking about who we would be pissing off or pleasing on, then we wouldn’t really be living our lives.
Of course.I oonly said that in the context of the discussion
” instill masculine wisdom and resources in the next generation of men”
BAM. Debates over.
Going childless is extinction. It’s not about dying with the most toys, but rather dying with the most boys (sons). Your shit will be redistributed to someone on the earth. Might as well make it someone who sees the world with the same eyes and brain. The modern socialist/feminist paradigm is attempting to deselect out of existence responsible men. Rather than playing along with this attempt at making us extinct, the opposite is required. We – everyone reading this site who supports the tenets and free market anarchy – should be having MORE offspring, not less. Exponentially more.
“If you don’t want kids, why try to attract pretty girls?”
So every girl you fuck you look at her from a potential mother standpoint? Your statement is so poorly thought out it does not desire a response but personally I fuck women who make my dick hard not because they might be a good DNA source for future generations.
they make your dick hard precisely because your genes tell you they are good for breeding with….
WHY do certain female traits make you hard? Because we are evolutionary wired to want a specific waist-hip ratio, symmetry, feminine features, healthy ass, healthy breasts. EVERYTHING there relates to reproduction. We’re not robots, we’re organic machines who see the opposite sex entirely for reproductive purposes.
Seems like you think having kids makes you a big man. You sound like a big pussy.
You’re right. Going childless is a winning strategy. Live by your beliefs, I’ll live by mine. It’s pretty fucking obvious which one wins in the long run. Multi-generational wealth and passing of knowledge and culture to descendants is what the elites do (Bush, Kennedy). Going childless is like a dumpster diving existence in comparison.
I totally get what you’re saying, but how are you going to guarantee your offspring and resources aren’t taken from you like bacon talked about? Are you that good at screening women? Is your game that solid?
by picking the right woman, and learning how to hold her ?
by not rushing into it and by having the income and resources to support it…
if you guys don’t want wives and kids… all the more for me…. 1 wife kinda sucks… but 3 or 4 might work pretty nice…..
I fully agree that’s a reasonable fear. Americanized women do seem to have started picking the state over a man in terms of providing them resources. It’s a legitimate fear that they’ll want a divorce 3-10 years down the road. I’m just saying that going childless is like solving a headache with suicide.
You’re conflating what’s best for an individual organisms genes with what’s best for the individual organism. An example: Its good for the male redback spiders genes when he mates, because those genes reproduce in a new generation of baby spiders. Its bad, however, for that individual male spider, because after the act of mating he gets his fucking head bitten off by the female spider. The “circle of life” it may be, but if following the dictates of my genes is likely to lead to personal destruction, I am likely to at least strongly consider some alternatives.
I also find it hard to believe that you can’t conceive of any other reason than producing superior offspring for attracting pretty girls. Unfamiliar with hedonism are you? Its pretty popular…
Fatherhood supports tribalism, which I thought was one of the tenets of the manosphere. In order for men to thrive, they need an “us vs them” paradigm. That means we need to have families and kids to build and support our tribe. We want our tribe to be strong and dominant indefinitely. To do that, we need kids.
You are a reproduction machine. When you have children and keep them alive long enough to have grandchildren you serve your purpose. This brings with it a deep sense of attachment and meaning. It’s hard wired in, and it is worth EVERY BIT of trouble. If you don’t have kids you will never know.
I have sons. It’s life’s great pleasure. It isn’t “male hamster.” It’s biology. You’ll see.
Yes, It’s really impossible for someone who doesn’t have kids to preach or know anything about the subject….
There are certainly many pitfalls that men should be aware of….. there are responsibilities and family….. co-habitation is a difficult and restrictive thing to do… then again so is Navy Seal hell week… doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it….
And there is certainly something about a man with kids that makes him a man, and a man without kids, just being an over grown teenager….
The title is don’t be romantic about it… but isn’t there a sense of romance in building a warp drive and flying out to the Orion Belt ?
That romantic notion to be more than what you currently are…. a womanising bachelor, a self invested machine that lives alone…..
That is what makes us human in the first place…
If you are not going to have kids…then you better set some pretty lofty goals…. wrap drive anyone ?
Not true. You don’t have to HAVE children to have an opinion on the subject…. just like you don’t need to PERSONALLY murder someone to know that it’s WRONG.
Someone who doesn’t have kids, cannot possibly appreciate the benefits… because they never experienced them…. how can you know what it’s like to hold your genetic offspring in your arms if you don’t have any..? How can you know what it’s like to become a father and learn to wield discipline, authority and leadership in your home, if you have never done that.
If you want to join the army you can form an opinion from some marketing brochure or some peacnik, but it will just be an opinion…. ask someone in the army what it’s like, but still you will only know for sure by experience….
therefore someone who hasn’t done something doesn’t have much place offering their opinion to others….
that is just soap box BS
Nobody likes to hear anybody say “you wouldn’t understand,” but for some things it’s true. Combat, taking game in the field, having sons, these things have to be done to be understood. I don’t feel superior for being a father; I feel luckier.
Well said.
That’s also not true. I was a teacher for a few years. A private school teacher – boys and girls ages 6 -18. I assure you, I enjoyed the BEST side of kids. Their PARENTS got the worst side and all the screaming and REALITY that I didn’t have to deal with.
So yes, I did…… — how did you put it? Oh yes — “wield discipline, authority and leadership” and enjoyed the benefits of watching them grow with the knowledge and training that I provided.
Believe me. I KNOW.
And now, I will accept your apology.
Anytime you’re ready….
That’s also not true. I was a teacher for a few years. A private school teacher – boys and girls ages 6 -18. I assure you, I enjoyed the BEST side of kids. Their PARENTS got the worst side and all the screaming and REALITY that I didn’t have to deal with.
So yes, I did…… — how did you put it? Oh yes — “wield discipline, authority and leadership” and enjoyed the benefits of watching them grow with the knowledge and training that I provided.
Believe me. I KNOW.
And now, I will accept your apology.
Anytime you’re ready….
Not really.
Not really.
Is too.
Get tha fuck out of here with that bullshit!!
You cannot belong to the tribe if you don’t pull your share of producing offspring. Go to the bachelor tribe and perish with them.
Not much to respond to here. Not a fan of reasoned argument? Think about all of the mental calories you expend on getting sex. That’s pure biology making you do that. Isn’t it likely that biology would also reward you for HAVING kids? If not the species wouldn’t last. Having kids feels good.
Since you’re clearly American and a “libertarian” I guess this sort of misanthropic thinking makes sense to you.
But to the rest of humanity it doesn’t.
Kindly keep your diseased thoughts to yourself.
Seems more misanthropic to me to put another unwanted mouth to feed/use up resources on the planet.
Part of me wants a wife, kids and a house with a white picket fence, the whole 9 yards. But it’s so difficult to know if this urge is coming from a genuine desire to experience the process of raising kids or simply a biological trick to get me to reproduce. I feel like I can’t trust my own desires sometimes.
Exactly, it’s a trick to get you caught in the mire.
It’s good for your genes but bad for you.
Just hit the over-ride.
First of all I wish writers on this site would stop using the ultra GAY Clooney as some kind of male role model.. he is the Rock Hudson of the 90s… BJ and HIV anyone ?
Second : Whilst the benefits of flying solo are obvious and family life can be tough, difficult and even miserable…. there are benefits…. not least that it makes you a real man… IF (and it’s a big IF) you can hold down the baby momma.
Who lives by the sword dies by the sword… same applies to selfishly chasing your own entertainment / pleasure…. think of yourself, but be sure those around you will do the same…. and fine remain an over grown teenager your whole life… why not go the whole hog and just get a rentawife from Thailand… the logic is the same…. if you want zero hassle in your life.
We’ve already discussed this in 5 articles.
Clooney is not gay.
He’s dated too many attention-whore wanna-be starlets. If he was guy, they would rat him out to the tabloids or TMZ in a New York minute.
I don’t get the whole ‘Clooney is gay’ thing either. What type of upside down thinking is prevalent in society, when a man has spent most of his adult life dating gorgeous women, and he is considered gay?
Is it just jealousy?
“it makes you a real man”
SAYS WHO?? the only one whose standards you gotta live up to is yourself. you`ve been brainwashed by social conditioning to believe fatherhood is the apex of a man`s life and that your life cannot be complete without shitting out a kid or two. just take five and really think if you want kids cause you want kids, or you want them cause society tells you you`re supposed to want`em.
A way to determine wether you should have children is by asking the following queston: Would you like to be your own father? If the answer is yes have children, if no than don’t.
Right now, in 2013 America, having children seems like an incredibly foolish and ill-considered choice unless you’re doing very well financially.
had vasectomy when i was 27, best $700 ive ever spent.
Very thorough article – clean and clear. EXCELLENT point re: cognitive dissonance.
I reject the idea that being childless means being selfish. Life has mercilessly hounded me to wake up, to discover native aptitudes which I now passionately express. I am very content with my own company. I devote myself to my business which makes it clearer that we’re all one human family. I feel less cliquish and celebrate shared values rather than shared genes. Tribalism is a great cause for wars and destruction – perhaps no surprise many ‘family’ oriented people are the most willing to listen to the massah’s call to kill the dark-skinned man in some far away land.
I’ve realized there are unique contributions I’m capable of making to the world that could only have developed with years of relatively low-stress investment in myself, which includes traveling, experimenting, suceeding, failing, and reflecting. My hyper-focus on understanding self and nature has brought amazing rewards. I know I’m making many people’s lives better through the products, services and knowledge I offer. I also get to enjoy the vast expanse of inner peace that no relationship can replace.
There are married / family men who have and continue to help along the way which I’m very grateful for. But they have limited time to pursue most non-family-related topics. Superficial conversations and weak collaborations often result – the cauldron that blends knowledge into understanding is left lukewarm. They invest in their children and marriage, which is noble. Yet I sometimes wonder, as the author pointed out, what the world is missing. I believe these men are also secretly frustrated that while women may deep down (whether feminist like it or not) feel quite fulfilled in child-rearing and family activities, men need their solitude and space. The best relationships will give men that, though I’m not sure how often it’s the case.
I believe we need to PROTECT men who want to have children, because they have sacrificed their freedom for this promise of paternity and maintaining their genetic legacy. Feminists and the courts have not made this easy (and most men haven’t helped their cause by laying down at the feet of both).
I also believe we ENCOURAGE men who are not willing to play that Most Dangerous Game to invest in themselves, to get advice from those who’ve gone before, to commit to their own art and self-expression independent of a girlfriend, wife or children. If at some point they decide to have children they will see farther and deeper. RoK satisfies part of this, yet I decry the lack of real spiritual instruction, essays on meditation, solitude, etc. Ultimate, each man must come to his own decisions about how deep the question of ‘waking up’ actually goes. What did the Buddha know?
The gifts of solitude and reflection are indescribable and priceless. The world seems hell-bent on keeping men pursuing women, whether for “meaningless sex” (PUA/MGTOW propaganda) or “fulfilling relationships” (MRA/feminist propaganda). Both are illusory if only seen at a superficial level and will result in some degree of suffering.
Wake up – beyond Neo, Morpheus, red-pill, blue-pill, any man-made concept. See for yourself beyond the idea of the rabbit hole.
“Samsarra IS nirvana. Nirvana IS samsarra.”
We have birthed enough babies. We need to create visionaries.
Very good and necessary article, the only bad thing is your conflating of Buddhist teachings with anything useful, whether you like it or not, Buddhism hasn’t produced anything worthwhile for..2000+ years and its inherent nihilism and solipsism is the main cause of this…that’s why I stick to the Western traditions that made us great (Christian based honor, pre-enlightenment notions and things like that). The rest of your article is fantastic and I hope to instill such a sense of purpose in my own progeny, if I live enough to see it.
Thanks for your comment, I appreciate having a considered exchange. Hmmm here’s what comes up as I ponder what you said.
I feel the most important teacher in my life has been Adyashanti, who was also raised Christian (Catholic in my case). Adya had gotten curious about spirituality in his late teens and felt the ‘cleanest’ path was Buddhism (to each their own). He tried to meditate for years, ‘storming the gateless gate’, pushing himself nearly to insanity. Out of desperation, he finally gave up and that’s when his first awakening happened, seeing through being human to being nothing: not-a-thing, not a someone. This is a fundamental teaching in Buddhism that puts it in useful contrast to what traditionality Christian teaches.
The deep knowledge of his not-a-thing-ness (called nihilism is someone gets STUCK in emptiness which I DO understand!) started to settle in. But an insight arose and he felt a prompting to share with his teacher, almost sheepishly:
“This … is bigger than Zen.”
His (ostensibly) Zen Buddhist teacher said:
“THAT’S THE WHOLE POINT!”
Truth doesn’t belong to any tradition, isn’t contained in any religion or practice. Truth is free of all traditions, all notions and attempts to own it. It is also unifying – it is ONE. There are many paths one can follow in apparent pursuit of Truth – but what I find is the falling away of ideas and concepts, like cleaning a mirror to see your reflection.
If one gets stuck in emptiness it can appear very nihilistic. But that’s only half the Truth. It’s unfortunately where I’ve seen many otherwise very insightful philosophers get stuck. But the “it’s all One love everyone open-heartedly” folks are stuck in oneness without seeing the nothingness. Grace flows from the interplay of both aspects – nothingness and oneness. It’s beyond these silly words attempt to explain… it’s very much about embodying not intellectualizing Truth.
The individual pursuit of Truth outside of dogma is why the Gnostics were hounded by those who tried to codify realization into traditions. And many of those Gnostics celebrated / used psychedelic substances to catalyze their awareness, as did the Maya, Egyptians, Greeks (Eleusinian Mysteries), and the Hindus with their soma). Christianity can actually be seen to be a mushroom cult if you look deeply enough.
Jesus didn’t wake up into Christianity from Judaism, he woke up out of Judaism INTO Truth. He never called himself Christian. Those who came after him creates codes of conduct (which yes, Buddhism and any other practice can do). But if one follows the example of the teacher you transcend the teaching and the tradition. This is what unifies all of humanity, realizing every path is only pointing toward the moon. You must get there on your own, which means abandoning all external ideas and finding within yourself an unfailing sufficiency as Whitman said.
“To You” – http://www.bartleby.com/142/175.html
May we each live with curiosity and support each other in our evolution as spirit in human form.
Last year around this time, one of the chicks I was banging came to me and told me that she got pregnant. It was a couple of days after The only time I fucked her without a condom. At first I took it slow and did nothing for the first couple of months but in new years eve I told my family and they went crazy with joy about finally having their first grandchild. All of a sudden I was caught up in the whole parenthood fever and all was well. I took full resposability and took care of the pregnancy, and my family received the future mother as one of their own. Long story short, I got the results of the paternity test yesterday and discovered the boy wasnt mine. I’ll be honest, right now I still feel like my son just died, but as many people said in the comments, Im also relieved that a) I discovered it early enough so Im not gonna raise someone else’s child and b) that the girl I thought was trustworthy is actually a whore. Im 33 so I am gonna try to enjoy life as free as possible and you know what? Yet another reason to dump the blue pill world. Its really crazy out there. I do want a family of my own but if, and thats a giant if, i find the right girl for the job. Anyway, this post came in the perfect moment for me.
b) that the girl I thought was trustworthy is actually a whore.
Heh. If you’re stuck with a gotcha pregnancy, always, always, always demand a paternity test. At least the dude who knocked her up now has to marry her or pay for the kid he sired, rather than you.
Bro, you just dodged a hail of gunfire, missiles and death ray lazer beams!
My thoughts exactly
Few things in life have been more fulfilling to me than the constant vigilance and work of raising my boys to be great Men. Teaching them everything I have learned (especially the ways of women), and instilling in them discipline and respect and watching them follow their interests has convinced me that it’s a man’s top priority in life.
I wish I had a girl or two as well so I could teach them how to be good women, and to respect and revere men.
Fatherhood is it’s own reward.
This is a great article! “While I do think some men are naturally paternal it is not encoded in all men” This is overly true in my experience. With the exception of some gay men, the love most men have for (young) children seems entirely based on their “love” for the child’s mother. And as women become more phallic (less feminine, less receptive, less able to be vulnerable, more competitive, and harbour a secret/unconscious desire to kill men/their lovers), they become utterly unlovable. If things keep going on the way they have been, we’ll see the trend in Japan (where the men are more sensitive changes in female’s femininity) here in NA, where men lose their desire for children, and more startlingly, their desire for sex.
Good article. Not addressed and a corollary to the above is the fact that not having kids would really give Planet Earth and everybody already here an enormous break, ecologically, environmentally, economically, socially, etc. If the oceans are indeed dying, the climate changing, aquifers salinizing, species disappearing, because of human activity… Seems to me less humans would be a real plus. I just don’t see this happening as with no natural predators, infant mortality rates in historical decline, and some generation of women someone always on the verge of hitting 30… There will be no shortage of babies nor the men who sire them, anytime soon. And conditions here on Earth will continue to deteriorate so that every woman and man who wants, can have, their very own mini-me.
I think that, even though I’m in favor of fatherhood, this article makes it clear that men need to be extremely careful about which woman they stick their seed into. I also think about Athlone’s latest article about how men should be extremely choosy about bestowing their commitment. A child is the ultimate in commitment, perhaps even above marriage.
Of course, many unfortunate fathers are beta males who are kind of asking for it. But I think part of that involves being too quick to offer commitment to an unsatisfactory woman.
I’ve thought a lot about this and I think the solution is pretty simple:
1) You need to maintain a healthy lifestyle and build up a big financial cushion
2) Constantly develop your game and life experience
3) Have kids at 45 – 50, preferably with someone 25 – 35
The dream is real my friends. Take care of yourselves and live long healthy lives. Let us spend our 20s, 30s and 40s drinking all that life has to offer and clenching into as much experience as possible.
Build a bank roll and take care of yourself so you can be healthy into your 70s.
If you don’t plan on being healthy into your 70s then start making changes NOW.
My mom had my brother at 27 and me at 29. My dad was 50 and 52. He died of cancer but that wasn’t his fault.
so basically build up your worth throughout your youth, so that you can piss it away by age 50 through spawning. yeah, smooth move.
No, not at all.
By 50 I’ll be in a comfortable position and quite possibly tired of single life.
Family can absolutely be a great thing and it’s an essential part of the human experience.
They’ll beat you up and take it.
Don’t do something that stupid because you’re “tired”, take a nap and find a hobby.
You’ll get tired of being broke and living in a van real quick.
Yeah a real rocket scientist.
And a bulletproof pre-nup
No such animal.
Interesting article. Thought provoking. Good points and can’t disagree with a thing. Fatherhood can be a “lateral” move ie not better than bachelorhood but AS GOOD.
Benefits of children:
i) Practical: insurance policy in your old age. Your kids may be more likely to give a shit about and take care of you in your dotage. Hey bachelors, do you thing that chick you banged, splooged in her hair then stole 10$ bucks from her purse and snuck out the fire escape is going to care for you in your old age??
ii) Your genetic legacy. Your kids are your shot at some sort of immortality…kinda
iii) Patriarchy. Can’t have a patriarchy with out some patriarchs. It saddens me a lot that the Roosh, QC and other contributors to this site may not be having kids. Think they would be interesting dads and pass on the red pill wisdom to their offspring. Can you imagine Roosh at a parent teacher conference or PTA meeting??
iv) Society…Team America. Red Pill style dads are more likely to raise producers/creators which are demographically dwarfed by the parasite/welfare class spawned by single moms.
v) Metaphysical. Kids can be a pain , even hellish if they are fuck ups but you occasionally you get lump-in-the-throat moments .
Uh…No. i) Bullshit. Your kids won’t give a fuck about you. If your lucky, they will take the time to research some “assisted living centers” to dump you, while they focus on their own career and lives. ii) Genetic legacy? Are fucking serious? iii) Did you not get the memo? Patriarchy is dead, fuckface! Ask every Joe Schmoe getting raped in divorce court! iv) see iii v) whatever, muthafucker. that shit is not worth it!
Learn to read fool. Don’t foist all your anger on me cause of your fucked up parents and upbringing. It’s not my fault that your ex divorced you for a Lesbian and now you’re paying child support. Also “genes” aren’t pants or an article of clothing made ( in your case ) by Diesel. Genes ( not jeans) are made up of DNA which is propagated into the future thru having children. So remain childless dummy. You can be “that guy” ie the 55 yr old man-tan fella with the tight fitting Affliction t-shirt lurking around the clubs who later goes home and jerks off to cartoon porn….
Ahhh, no! Single guy right here. Never been married or knocked up some bitch. Former Peace Corps volunteer who speaks three languages. Law degree and a masters. Lived and worked overseas (I like foreign pussy!) About to go teach english (ESL) in the caspian sea region because I have the FREEDOM to. Funny, I’m 42, and I have lived my life to avoid the scenario you just painted (divorced from a lesbian? ha). I’m THAT GUY that just got back from Azerbaijan, speaks Turkish, Arabic and Farsi, been to places and fucked exotic women you only dream about, and oh yeah, probably end fucking your “wife” who will find me vastly more interesting the omega beta shit she married.
Oh so you’re an international-man-of-mystery? Well aren’t you special? Likely a fantasy from an internet keyboard warrior. Watching too many Jason Bourne movies .
Whatever. Given your over-the-top chimp out reaction to my original post something is eating at your soul. Overreactions are very telling.You replied to my post with ad hominem attacks and name calling . Odd because I agree with this article and in no way diminish those who don’t have kids. A valid choice. Just know that all the cool stuff you’ve done, all the chicks you banged will be for nought when you die. Extinction. Oblivion . Good luck with that. So you’re multilingual does that include English? Get a vasectomy please..save humanity from your spawn….
wow, i guess for a beta faggot like you, something as mundane as being well traveled and trilingual is the stuff of movies. Keep thinking other’s lives are as pathetic as yours. Oh well, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Do you have Tourette’s ? Get a hold of yourself. Read my original post slowly and carefully. I said fatherhood can be a LATERAL move ie not better ,not worse than being childless and gave a list of positives. You disagree, but what is with calling my fuckface and MF?? You seem very uncivilized for all your worldly exploits that you keep mentioning over and over. I don’t require your approval but it is about decorum….
Yeah no thank you. being 30 years old every father I see nowadays are miserable, sad, and envious of everything I can do. Fathers that I know that are 40 are exactly the same but they show or post a picture of some school thing or recital one night and say how proud they are and the next day bitch and complain about how horrible it was with the nagging wife and loud children. Fathers in the 50’s work double overtime just to be able to provide for their offspring and I’m exposed to every illness and contagion in the book because they’re always sick and can’t afford to take days off. Fathers in the 60’s have a break but still they have nothing, zero, zilch to say of their past because they’re too mind focused and busy trying to do all the things they wanted to in the past but never had the time. Those people are the most envious of people like me who want nothing to do with marriage or fatherhood. And on several notes, despite how much they love their children, always say they would have been better off not sexing it up with their girlfriend/wife/stranger that night. 70+ well you have the time and money, not hardly any energy.
exactly!!!!
You said it better than me. You said it much better than I ever could!
The “long game” is a much better game to play anyway — think of it as k-selection for societies themselves.
Otherwise, check out Corinne Maier’s well-selling book in France, “No Kid : Quarante raisons de ne pas avoir d’enfant” (No kid: 40 reasons not to have a kid).
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ytw5S1EyL.jpg
Oui, mais pas toutes les femmes sont comme ça …
Mister Roosh wants to build a bridge to the 18th century? One of my 18th century ancestors didn’t bother with children until he was 57. I believe his example serves me well …
Fatherhood is tough and full of compromises, no doubt. There is nothing more gratifying in both short and long term. I think fatherhood is the apex of true masculinity, you can teach and influence your spawn and be immensely influential to them.
bullshit! what`s gratifying about giving up your life for the benefit of another, even if that other person is your own offspring? you`re basically flipping a coin and praying that the person you raise is not the next hitler. you have no guarantees that they`ll do right by you when your end-times come, you have no guarantee that they`ll turn out to be this amazing person you planned them to be, allthewhile the only guarantee you have is that you`ll be pissing away money,time, health and freedom in order to raise the `sumbitch. if that seems like a winning proposition to you, go for it. just don`t expect simpathy if it all blows up in your face.
Risk acceptance is manly.
Depends on how high the risk is. Marriage today is like crossing the highway at rush hour. Sure there is a possibility you can make it, but the risk being hit by a vehicle is simply to high. There are just to many negative variables at place, making it extremely unlike to succeed in this endeavour. If you really want to have kids move…move far a way from the US preferably avoid the West as a whole. Go to Asia (SEA), Latin America etc.
Risk assessment is manly. If you cannot manage risk in a given situation, it makes sense to withdraw.
and to that i say bullshit! you gotta draw the line between accepting calculated risks and taking on foolish risks. basically it boils down to this: overcoming odds is indeed manly, but going out and consciously looking for trouble is retarded.
hell, look at the world. it`s full of assholes. each asshole is someone`s kid. you really think their parents didn`t pray and hope that their kid will turn out great? and yet here they all are, stinking up the planet with their idiocy. so basically, what are the odds of having a great kid? one in ten? one in fifty? if i told you that you`re going up in a plane and jumping, and there`s only a 1 in 50 chance that your parachute actually works, WOULD YOU JUMP??
It used to be like that…atleast 50 years ago. Today as a father you actually have very little influence. To provide – a decent lifestyle – for a family (wife 2 children) you have to work mad hours. Which subsequently reduces your time with the kids. Nr.2, in today’s information age you don’t controle the info your kids are receiving. Nr.3, in the past women/wives had actual respect for their husbands and teached their children to respect their father. Today’s women are extremelly disloyal and show no to little respect.
Fatherhood (in it’s complete sense, not just the biological act of being a baby daddy) is part and parcel of manhood itself.
i really must say i`m disappointed. far too many of you have been expressing opinions that are not your own, but which have been bashed into your head since childhood, and are now being regurgitated ad literam. many of you seem to think that fatherhood completes a man`s life and gives him more happiness than freedom and money and hobbies and pussy. for such supposed free-thinkers, you seem to default to social conditioning a whole lot more than would be expected from rational inquisitive adults.
me, i`m looking forward to a vasectomy. i love my money and my freedom far more than i love fulfilling some bullshit obligation that society has placed on my shoulders. so it`s the end of my genes. so what? bringing a child into this shitty world is tantamount to child abuse. if you think the world is bad right now, wait ten or twenty more years and then reminisce about the good ole days. overpopulation, declining iq levels, feminazis, the culture of political correctness…you really think these blemishes will go away on their own? don`t be stupid. i`d rather spare my potential offspring the anguish of living in a shithole and simultaneously exclude the possibility that i may, one day, come to resent my kids for preventing me from living the type of life i wanted to live. my life is my own – if that makes me a selfish asshole, so be it. i have zero need for external validation.
futhermore, i do not feel i owe society anything. i never asked to be born, i feel no special privilege for having been born, and as such have no moral obligations to give anything back or bring the world further along on my back. i will lead my life for my own enjoyment and i do not intend to leave anything behind me when i die. no point being the richest stiff in the cemetery.
in conclusion, lay off societal norms and bullshit evolutionary explanations. what do YOU want to do with your life? this is such a fundamental question that i`m amazed how many people here revert to slogans and the appeal-to-nature fallacy.
Much like skydiving or jumping waterfalls, there’s nothing really logical or safe about it. But something still makes us do it.
I’m turning 30 and I think that if I ever find myself in the position to take the risk in conditions I feel are acceptable (everyone will have their own risk profile), then why the hell not?
Also, we don’t have to follow the socially accepted parenthood model. Get creative and take it as an adventure. (eg..earn money, choose a good partner, have a kid, move to a different country, open a business, raise your kids away from the social herd, continue to surf every day)
Logic is strong, man is stronger.
You wouldn’t want to become a father because you want to keep riding the cock carousel, er, I mean stay in poosy paradise? Don’t become a dad so you can work on your career and become that Strong & Independent(tm) woman, er, alpha male you can be?
Is this satire? If not, bacon has some daddy issues.
You don’t become a father because you want a life accessory or to please your family, that’s what feminists do.
If your dad never explained that to you, you’re a piece of shit and he was too. Accept that and fix it.
“a man is aware of the power of the state ”
If you fear to have kids because you realize the state has too much power over you, you better work on the problem, rather than the symptome. Kids are not the problem.
Also, not the solution. Fewer slaves, hastened collapse.
Some guys are cut out to be good fathers and some aren’t. There are risks, big risks with having children. Having become a father, I would not EVER go back to being a self-absorbed single guy partying and chasing the poosey all the time. Choose your mate carefully with this question in mind (after you consider her genetics)…What kind of ex-wife would she make? Is she a ball-buster? Forget it. Can they change? Of course, but you have to have a starting point to assess her nature. Having kids gives you skin in the game called the future. Making decisions based on what’s best for my dick got old for me by 35.
I’d rather hang out with my kids – even other parents kids – than with 99% of so-called “adults” that are basically grown children without the innocence, imagination, excitement, uninhibited laughter, and sense of wonder. But go ahead and use the gift that is your red pill wisdom to bang vacuous piles of pleasantly shaped flesh instead of creating and building beautiful human beings from the ground up.
The media and government work tirelessly to promote that people have kids in order to enslave them. A stressed out, broke, over worked set of parents don’t have time to fight all the government wrongdoing in this country. The “joy of children” is a lie in this dystopian modern society. People are having kids because their friends are having kids because their friends had kids and their friends had kids, not because they REALLY want kids. It’s all peer pressure and government propaganda. It’s really worse for White people to afford to have kids than other races but it’s all completely fu*&$ked up.
What kind of world are you living in…in the Wes if there is one thing the government is relentlessly trying to promote is childlessness. How? Feminism,overpopulation myths, notions of humanity as a “plague” (the earth can easily live without us, but the real contamination is in our blood with hundreds of testosterone-killing-toxins that your greatgrandfathers never had to deal with in their systems) to the “Mother” Earth, infiltration and destruction of any real spiritual movement that could spawn a patriarchy (Catholicism)….and the list goes on for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear…
Childlessness only for one race…
The rest are paid by the government.
“Happiness” and “Freedom” are the ideals of the Underman.
So, even if it was proven that dying fatherless was a good thing for one’s own petty “happiness” and “freedom,” it wouldn’t be a sufficient reason.
We’re no less talking about the survival of everything that gives life a meaning on this planet. If the smart ones keep jerking off in condoms and the morons keep spreading their idiocy, we’ll soon end up being a society where nothing of value can be created, maintained or even understood.
“We’re no less talking about the survival of everything that gives life a meaning on this planet…” so keep on knocking up those sluts and paying that chilimony boys! Freedom and happiness are overrated, I tell you!
You’re literally asking other men to suffer to preserve your vaunted civilization and thereby make you and your offspring happy. Do you have any sense of irony?
This is clearly a dividing line among members of this site that I break down for myself as – ‘do we try and save ourselves, our race and with it civilisation by reproducing’ or ‘the odds are stacked against us too much now that trying is not worth it so we should try to enjoy it while it falls’ – not an accurate or complete assessment at all but it works on some level and this is worth discussing further as both sides have merit.
Yes, it is between those who want to save civilization and those that recognize that it is beyond saving.
Not “other men,” all men. And I don’t see how men will suffer less in a dying world. Men (and women) need to have children, period. The only fact that we’re discussing that proves how deep we all have fallen.
I do however understand their concern even if I believe in pronatalism.
People don’t often realise this but promiscuity is a form of aggression (though it makes sense because testosterone leads to horniness). Basically I think much of the game culture is a symptom of male frustrations IMO. If it weren’t for the feelings of frustration, they’d be less promiscuous.
Others respond by unhealthy abastainance or whatever.
You’ll suffer less in a dying world if you have food to eat, a roof over your head, and don’t have crows tearing at your flesh.
If white people dont breed in more numbers, degenerate ugly indians will procreate in billions and transform this world into open air Sewer just like india
I am afraid, these ugly indians who come to US who are spreading their parasitic culture will eventually turn USA into another corrupt degenerate society like india
I am pretty much opting out. I will either raise a family overseas, or none at all. I have been looking around me for years, and I don’t see any happy parents. nope. Every father I know would trade places with me in a heart beat (they have told me so), and I am dead broke! But I’m dead broke, with a U.S. Passport, and a certificate to teach English overseas. Peace!
As a father of 2 young boys I have to agree it is stressful, expensive, exhausting limiting and all the other negative things listed above. However it is also rewarding, fun, and satisfying in so many ways that makes it all worth it (so far) Point is,having kids is not to be taken lightly and and you have to be ready to commit time and money for the long haul or DO NOT DO IT! I can understand people that don’t have kids although I think they are missing out and will regret it in the end. Far worse are parents that bring children into this world and do not fulfill their responsibilities. They are a menace to their kids and society.
Each man will have to make his own decision concerning children and marriage. I can say that after awhile, juggling women gets old but it does not necessarily mean it’s time to start a family. I will never tell a younger man that family life has been fun, fulfilling or any of that vacuous nonsense. Family life has been a struggle. I can imagine any number of alternatives for men once they age out of the player stage.
“Fatherhood Does Not Bring Happiness”
This is, bluntly, bullshit. Nothing in my life has made me as happy as being a father. Expensive? Yes. Time consuming? Yes. Don’t get to go to the same parties, etc? Yes.
So, buy your Corvette. Enjoy it. Also, enjoy dying old and alone, with no legacy and no one to carry your name. Also, be one of those guys that, in buying that Corvette and bragging about how you never had kids and are loving it, becomes the very caricature of the hipster old guy trying desperately trying to hold on to his youth while the girls laugh at him, the women sneer at him, and the men shake their heads and thank God above that, despite the “opportunity costs”, they didn’t become that guy. Nothing compares to being a dad. Not a damn thing in this world.
Shaming language. Emotion-based argumentation. Smells like fish.
Is that the best you can do? Say those words out loud and you might even convince yourself too.You are pathetic and you sound quite sad. The definition of cognitive dissonance, folks.
I`m 45 – no children – had a vasectomy and couldn`t be more happier!!!
I see how miserable and drained my friends look and feel with the children they have and continue raising. I`m sure there are benefits – but for me i really don`t see any whatsoever unless its something that you feel you must do.
To quote Francis Underwood from House of Cards – ” I despise children! There. I said it. ”
Totally agree frank!
“While I do think some men are naturally paternal it is not encoded in all men, just look at the animal kingdom, how many male animals stay with the young? I think for the majority of men becoming a father is a learned behavior through social conditioning rather than an instinctive paternal nature.”
Its actually the case that humans evolved in multi-male systems where males participated in caregiving but less than females, and especially less for ‘alpha’ males.
No mention about how, for the most part, your wife’s body will be totally wrecked after she gives birth and your sex life with her will become nonexistent. Women are lazy. The vast majority WILL NOT return to gym to work off the pregnancy fat, cuz most never hit the gym that hard b4 they got pregnant. Their bodies will remain wrecked, and you will have to go have affairs with other women. So why bother?
Its reasonable to say that the development of SENS by the 30’s will change the calculus quite profoundly.
In a related manner, it does makes sense to make the money first, then have the family (if you really want to, that is).
I used to think if I wasn’t married by 30 (I’m 30 now) that I was late to the game. Upon reflection I am in no rush. The idea of a family and children is appealing in the abstract, but all of the married/family men I know are not happier than before they became married. A number of male relatives have told me at various points not to get married, said in a joking manner of course as it has been for generations, but the reality is that, at least in its modern form, it’s a draining enterprise, especially with children.
What I wonder is how children were raised generations or centuries ago. I imagine that children were raised in more of a collective manner with the women of a village or tribe doing the bulk of the work. Nowadays it seems like every new couple is reinventing the wheel in raising children all by themselves (if not using daycare). I’d be content with minimal involvement with my child/children in the early years of their development, but at this point I can’t stomach the thought of a 20+ year, $250k commitment. Are any of the commenters happily married with children or know people who are? I just haven’t met any.
The years the children are small are the hardest on a marriage. There is not much support for new families before a child is old enough for public school at age five. Before that, it is up to the parents alone to work out how to care for a child who needs 24-hour supervision for years, as well as figuring out a way to pay the bills. It’s not like having a pet.
If you are curious about how people raised children in the past, Sarah Blaffer-Hrdy, Meredith Small and Lloyd deMause are good sources. It was women’s work, and very abusive and infanticidal.
What I learned from them: children are lucky to be born today and not 50 years ago or at any other time in the past. Modern women with access to healthcare are lucky to be alive here and now, because so many of them died during labor and delivery.
Wanting children is not rational in terms of self-interest: it’s an emotional choice – I am older than you (44) and probably among the last to assume that having children was a normative life path, not just a lifestyle choice. Now everything, everything, everything in life is a choice, whether it is or isn’t.
A 20+ year (really, it never ends until your life or their life does), $250,000 commitment is something that unfolds over a long period of time: you don’t have to pay it all up front or live those 20+ years all at once: it unfolds very slowly.
Also, you really can’t imagine the reality of having a child until you do – that person is not you, and while they may resemble you (biologically yours or not – I know plenty of adopted children who take on the mannerisms of their adopted parents), they are unique and surprising. Your life will change completely and in unpredictable ways.
Thanks for your insights. My dad was born on a table in his family’s home so it reminds me of the dramatic changes that have occurred in just one generation. My mindset for now is that if I’m not really interested in parenting, I should stay away from it. I bet most guys say this though until they get their girlfriend pregnant.
“…until they get their girlfriend pregnant…” Modern access to contraception is a very good thing! May no child enter this world unwanted (but so many do).
If you look down at an ant colony due to be destroyed along with all of the ants inside it in 3 days, the ants won’t know this and will keep making babies like ther’s no tomorrow. The couple of ant that suddenly have clarity of though and see the antkeeper preparing to destroy the colony can profess to the masses, but will be ignored by the masses. Question is: what should these ants do? Living on as it is, having more kids with female ants with the knowledge of the doom will be a disingenuous existence. The male ants could leave the colony, there will be no more female ants there though and they will die not having kids, they will have a good old explore outside but that will be the end of the ants. Should they try and persuade a few of the female ants they like the best to come and hide away from the colony while it gets destroyed and try and repopulate the species that way, pretty unlikely scenario too, but do they have any other options? How likely are they to persuade the masses that their future is not looking good, they may not be able to this simplified scenario is a few steps away from a a man’s best strategy.
I am 51. I have no children. Maybe I can provide some perspective.
These things are not always something you decide to do one way or another. I never actually decided I did not want kids. In fact, I always assumed I would have kids.
I got married when I was 34, after sowing a considerable amount of wild oats. I got divorced 7 years later; we did not have children. My ex-wife was not a bad woman and she would have been a good mother (for all I know, maybe she is by now). We grew apart, which led to the divorce. But the divorce itself was pretty ugly as she decided she wanted to profit from it – or at least she was angry about the divorce and wanted to punish me. I learned a lot from that divorce about how much more precarious things would have been if we had kids.
Even after that, I never told myself, “I don’t want to have kids.” I did worry a lot more about how risky it is to have children in the US. I learned about divorce rates, community property, VAWA, DV accusations used as a divorce tactic, and how many men are out there paying child support but getting very little time with their children. I can’t think of a worse scenario than to have kids and be mostly pushed out their lives, while still paying. Still, I can’t say that I ever convinced myself I would not take the risk. And I continued to search for the “right” woman. I held onto the fantasy that I’d find that nearly perfect love. (I never believed in the perfect relationship or “soul mates,” I am realistic).
Well, searching for that right woman gets harder as you get older. Especially once you hit your late 40’s and then pass 50. I don’t date women my own age, preferring them to be about 10 years younger. (Much younger than that and I find there is not much that we have in common – doesn’t matter initially if the sex is good, but does matter later).
What you learn is that when a woman has never been married and is 35+, there is often a reason why she has never been married. These women often have issues, some of them very big issues. Then, if you look at the divorced crowd, there is often a reason that divorced women are divorced – it’s not the man’s fault nearly as often as most divorced women say. So, the pickings start to get pretty slim. Really, I would not have believed this myself when I first got divorced, but this is what I have found to be the case. And I am a very tolerant person in my personal life. (In my career, I am driven and want everyone around me, and myself, to succeed).
Oh, and then I learned about the pitfalls of women in their early 40’s. They become desperate to have a baby. Especially those that are childless. It really is true – almost all of them go into a desperate mode and become obsessed with having a child. I met a beautiful woman about 5 years ago when she was 38. Beautiful, but rather difficult in many respects and with a bit of an anger problem. But it was a good relationship in a lot of ways, so I stuck with it. Of course, the sex was also awesome, which was a motivator for sticking with it.
Then, she got pregnant at 42 (accidentally, at least on my part). I found myself scared to death. I had to take a good hard look at her and consider what it would be like to be with her at least for the next 18 years. Abortion was not an option and I told myself, at least, that I would do right be the child. Well, not surprisingly given the statistics, she had a miscarriage. It was sad and a relief at the same time.
I continued the relationship with this woman. After having experienced being pregnant, she was desperate to do so again. She started going to fertility clinics. The first she went to told her that her chances of getting pregnant and carrying a child to term were very slim. In fact, the doctor said he thought it would be a bad idea to try. So, she went to another fertility clinic. And then another. She kept going to them until she found one that told her what she wanted to hear. All this time, she was pressuring me for sex while she was “fertile,” and for marriage.
I think she loved me. But it was really hard to see that or feel that while she was on a mission to meet her own needs. It became clear that I was mostly just a sperm bank and a bank account at that point. She saw me as a means to get pregnant and as financially strong enough (actually, more than financially strong enough) to be a provider.
That is not a fun position to be in. I loved her, though I did have my concerns about some aspects of her personality. But I simply did not enjoy being pushed, pressured, told that I should want to have a child to. Reminded constantly of my age. Expected to perform on a schedule. I started to see her obsession as very selfish.
I began to refuse to go along with HER plan. She set an ultimatum. I said that I would not respond to or live by an ultimatum. And that was that. I have no idea what she is attempting to do now to have a child, but it’s not with me.
As I said, I am 51. I have a lot of time to myself. I have spent a lot of time thinking about things and I have been trying to be honest with myself and realistic about the future. When you pass 50, things sort of start to seem a existential. You become aware of your mortality.
Frankly, I am tired. I am tired of chasing women. While I know that when I meet another one that interests me (not if, but when), the first 3 to 6 months will be enjoyable. But the chances are high that I will then start to see red flags simply because the available women out there in the age range are often screwed up. Even if I don’t, then we have to still go through a process of getting to know each other, gaining trust in each other, and so on. That should be at least an 18 month process. By that time, I’ll be 53 (assuming I met this woman tomorrow).
And who is this woman anyway? Will she be another 40 year old woman who is most likely past her child rearing years. Or will I be able to find someone younger?
And how about me? Do I really have the energy to raise a child? Let me tell you, when you get into your late 40’s and into your 50’s, you don’t have the energy you used to have. I go to the gym. I take care of myself. But age does take its toll.
When I consider all of this, I come to the conclusion that it is not likely that I will ever have children – at least not under circumstances that I think would be good for a child. That reality is a mixed bag. On the upside, I can do whatever I want, whenever I want. I am financially secure and I can afford to do just about anything I want to do.
The downside is that life does get boring sometimes. I do feel that I am missing that sense of passing something on to the next generation. I wonder often what it would be like to have a child (or more than one) and watching them move out into the world, hopefully with the feeling that I had prepared them to the best of my ability.
And, as selfish as it may seem, I do consider what my old age will be like. My parents had their children. My mother, who is still alive, has her three children, and she has four grandchildren. She is a happy woman. She loves her family and never tires of doing things for her family.
What is it like to die utterly alone? I don’t know. Maybe at that point you don’t really care. Or, maybe that is the point where you feel the greatest regret. I don’t know, but it looks like I will find out.
I realize that I have not provided any clear answer here. I don’t think there are clear answers. There are upsides and downsides to being my age, financially secure, and childless. But, to be perfectly honest, deep down, I feel like I have failed. I feel that I have missed a very important part of a “full” life.
If you are sure you do not want to have children, definitely do not have them. If my story sounds a bit like your story, and my sentiments sound like your sentiments, but you are in your 30’s, you might seriously consider taking the plunge.
Just make sure that you do not go into it with any illusions. I have had many friends that have suffered divorce with children, some of them were ground through the family court system that we all fear (DV accusations, protection orders, limited visitation, and financially hammered). This might happen to you, so prepare yourself, even if today you love your wife with all of your heart – these things often change. And there is very little on your side, except your inner strength and persistence. Of course, these things may not happen.
Yes, the risk is there. However, as someone above pointed out, life is full of risk. As with most things in life, the key is to manage that risk.
I hope this helps.
Thank you for your thoughts. Thank you for this essay.
As a male who never got to sow any oats… the sting of that haunts you for life, and ruined me for any hope of relationships. Even though Im 34, Im at the existential state you are in already.
I’m in my mid-thirties and the father of four young children and I agree with all the disadvantages except the last one. Fatherhood is inherently costly, irrational, freedom-reducing, and makes you generally unhappy for long periods of time. But any act of sacrifice for another person necessitates that. Fatherhood is only cognitive dissonance if your worldview is only big enough for you. They don’t give the congressional medal of honor for extraordinary acts of selfishness. Fatherhood was the only means to establish a legacy in ancient times and it remains one of the best today.
Who were your great grandparents? Your great great grandparents?
You really need something more than this talk of legacy if you want to preach about the reasons for having kids. In a couple hundred years or so your genetic contribution,last name, who you were will almost always be erased or forgotten.
Btw you talk of selfishness for not having kids. How is creating life for your own ego validation (e.g. legacy) not selfish. Unless you are adopting and raising a kid get over off your high horse about being selfless for raising kids. No one needs you to procreate. There are 7 billion people on the planet so having having kids is not some duty or selfless act to the human race to solve underpopulation.
Good points. You can be selfish whether you have kids or not. Obviously, monks aren’t selfish either and they left a tremendous legacy in terms of preserving classical literature. But you could also argue what they did was irrational, costly, etc.
As for population, it likely hinges on your political views. I believe it’s important for smart, civilized people to have children. There has yet to be developed country whose fertility rate fell below the replacement rate of 2.1 children that has recovered above it. Look at Japan and Russia for example. They’re in serious decline. Jonathan Last’s latest book is a good source for this.
So what? Enjoy the decline.
Have you guys heard of the Anti Natalist Movement? Its an ideological movement that is gaining strong ground and its core premise is that humans should no long reproduce, hence “anti-natalism”. I think of MGTOW as a kind of variant on this and the two movements will probably converge sometime in the near future.
At the same time polyamory or open relationships/plural marriages are also gaining ground. I envision a future where people still have romantic relationships, though not of an exclusively monogamous nature, and at the same time don’t have any kids. Which of course means they will be practicing safe sex so STDs will decrease as well.
Sounds pretty Utopian.
Regarding happiness and have kids, or not and the study that showed people who never had kids were happier than those with or even empty nesters, I don’t think its the kids per se that make the unhappy but the culture(s) in which they are raising those kids. In a problematic culture such as this one, its often easier to go it alone. We just have to navigate all the negativity for ourselves. But imagine having to navigate all the negativity for other people as well? People who are dependent on you. And no matter what time of positive home environment you try to create for your kids, they bring in negativity from outside: school, their friends, their technology and media addictions. Even if you don’t have a TV inside your home, they will get exposed to it at other kids houses, even school, and bring that negativity inside your home.
“While I do think some men are naturally paternal it is not encoded in
all men, just look at the animal kingdom, how many male animals stay
with the young? I think for the majority of men becoming a father is a
learned behavior through social conditioning rather than an instinctive
paternal nature.” This is one of the key questions here, and it’s a question that requires more investigation before reaching any conclusion regarding the paternal nature of man.
I was involved in multiple studies of populations of Great Gray Owls (Strix nebulosa nebulosa, Strix nebulosa lapponica, Strix nebulosa yosemitensis) and was able to observe several nest sites. It was fascinating to see the fathers go out and hunt and bring back voles to the nest like clockwork throughout the period of egg incubation and owlet fledging, where at the point of fledging the females leave the nest and both parents go out and bring food back to the nest.
While I have learned of the vastly different social structures that exist within other avian species, the birds of prey are my favorite to study.
So what does this say about man’s paternal nature? Unfortunately, it is not that simple and to extrapolate this information to make a definitive statement on the extent to which paternal behavior in men is socially conditioned would not be helpful. I will say though, that by learning about our closer genetic relatives (primates) and all animals, we can begin to understand ourselves better.
Both my personal experiences and that I have read from other sources suggests that the people who did not want kids and did not have them as well as those that wanted and had kids are about equally happy. It is the people who did not want, but somehow ended up with them as well as those that wanted them, but could not have them for various reasons, are both miserable in life.
People who want kids (and can afford them) should have as many as they want. People who don’t want kids should not have them. This societal pressure that is put on people who don’t want kids to have them is utterly unacceptable. Likewise, the denigration of people who do have kids, especially large families, by derisively calling such people “breeders”, often on the part of elite liberal types, is also equally unacceptable.
The decision to have or not have kids is a life-changing one. There should NEVER be any external societal pressure to make serious life-changing decisions. Indeed, I consider such social pressure, either way, to be HIGHLY offensive. People should be free to make such a life changing decision completely free of external pressure based on what they truly want out of life, and the commitment they are willing to make it happen.
Well I have been a father and I have also dis-owned my former children.
When I dis-owned them I was suicidal at the process, something I did not expect.
Having been on both sides of the fence? My recommendation to young men is to skip fatherhood. Just skip it all together. The very fact ALL FOUR of my former children knew exactly what Jennifer was doing and to this day, 6 years later, have not said one word publicly criticising Jennifers crimes, nor one word supporting what I am doing? That tells you what an ungrateful bunch of shits todays children are.
And my two step children are both over 30 now. They know better.
Don’t do it lads. It’s not worth it.
Your instinct to procreate is not designed to make you happy, it’s designed to trick you into thinking you’ll be happy so you’ll do it.
If you want to be happy, disregard and override your instincts.
It’s called having a brain.
Even if you “feel” lonely, simply acknowledge the feeling and it will go away. Take a nap, you’ll be fine.
Don’t have children because you feel bad.
I don’t see why would a game-themed lifestyle be in such a clash with being a father. It is not like a father-to-be is down with some fatal case of marriage, or something alike. Having a child costs money and time, but a well-off player that knows how to handle his life and finances shouldn’t have so much trouble over it.
It’s like saying “I can’t work out and eat properly because I don’t have enough time and money”. It’s just another excuse.
I am becoming a father by the end of this year, and I don’t see that slowing me down too much, maybe even getting me some points with the girls (I’ll appear more mature, more “taken” and more reliable).
Don’t sweat about it, just kick into a higher gear.
Just want to give my opinion here, obviously I’m a woman as you can see from my name. Now I do not know what it’s like to be in the mind of a man, but I observe. From what I’ve seen some are made for the bachelor life, some are not, some are too scared to even acknowledge the possibility of a family, and that’s totally fine. Just like how some women just want the bachelorette life. But life in general does have ups and downs, it’s not going to be perfect. There will be issues you have to face or maybe not even ready to deal with. But I hope if the right girl comes along, you don’t pass her by. And from reading the comments, yes a woman does become more hormonal when pregnant and after she’s given birth. But I think you can guess the reason why.
Life isn’t perfect, so don’t expect your significant other to be either. And if you really are concerned with the hormonal thing just see how she is on her menstrual cycle, but if you really do care for her it probably won’t matter too much. But if she throws a vase or something at your head, when the cause is something small (like you tracked in mud, etc.) I would look into that.
I love being a father, DIVORCED father that is. Full time father hood with a Soul-Sucking, condescending,
functionally-retarded wife SUCKED. But as a 12 year experiment it was
pretty cool. Now, every other weekend is perfect. Travel, sports, friends, girls, beers one weekend. Frisbee, whiffleball, hiking, biking, cars, pizza, and teaching sports the other weekend. Cooking a new breakfast every other Sunday morning to blasting Mexican Disco with my 10 yr old daughter–awesome. Best of both worlds.
isn’t avoiding fatherhood destroying the family?? as you claim feminine men and masculine women are?? UGH OH!! THIS ARTICLE IS DESTROYING THE FAMILY! LET’S PUT A STOP TO IT
“A man with kids puts the needs of his children first and in order to provide stability to his kids will usually pass on a promotion or job lead which requires a move to another city while a child-free man would have little to hold him back.”
That is an ideal, it is not something that all parents does…
I feel like a good idea for an article is a how to raise your daughter for the fathers out there? or a ” five ideas to impart on your daughter” . If not I’m curious how would you guys raise the young females? Get to them early before they get ruined kind of thing.
As a childless 33 year old man I had a vasectomy. I have enjoyed the freedom it has entailed. In fact I would say it was the best and most meaningful thing I ve done with my life so far (which has included a university education, extensive international travel, marriage, and career). My life is full of joy from reading, writing, sex, and holidays, and full of peace from enough sleep and a general lack of concern about the future. For men, I highly recommend no children and deliberately induced infertility as a means of creating a stress free life.
I agree so hard with this article.
Can someone please tell me how to convince my boyfriend to get a vasectomy? I would like to start partaking in the benefits of condom-free sex and the mood-boosting properties of semen but his stubborn virility prevents this.
This is why white people are going extinct.
There is nothing wrong with being a father, Yes, being a father has responsibilities, can be expensive, less freedom, etc. but in the long run, it will do you good if you raise your kids right. And, if you are still close to your kids when you get older, and you die, you won’t die alone! It is still worth considering not that there is anything wrong with being single… Interesting perspective though…
This essay is kinda silly. I lived overseas (on my own) for 4 years, then got married, and now I have 3 kids with a mentally stable wife who stays at home, does the chores, lets me sleep in, and I work a job that I love while enjoying time with my kids.
Yeah, life is hard, but your kids are going to love you more than anyone else in your life, if you love them back and teach them.
Its important to provide perspective about deciding not to have kids for men which is the crux of this article. Its not a picnic if things go bad which they can easily and as relayed in the article there are benefits to avoiding children.
While you may be happy with your life and with having children things could just as well not be so great for you if your wife decided to divorce you. Now you may be thinking well only men who pick bad wives end up in divorce court or whatever other rationalization you may have but at the end of the day the chips are stacked against men in family court.
I also think its presumptuous to persume that just loving your kids they will love you back. A startling number of parents and grown children no longer communicate for whatever reason and I am sure many of those parents were loving types but their children just did not reciprocate.
Besides this article being “silly” as you put it how do you refute many of the articles points and the points I have raised. After all just because you have had sucess with children does not mean its the a beneficial move for others and still a big risk for most men even under the best circumstances.
I think it would be cool to have kids. I also think it would be cool to have a Ferrari. I can not afford a Ferrari. You can not afford to have kids unless you can afford to crash a Ferrari and not be troubled by it. This I believe.
What we have in the West is a society that essentially makes men dispensable. I think we all (men) would think differently about parenthood if we were not alienated from our wives and children by the State. In times long past, the man would educate the children, not the State. The woman would obey her husband and be completely responsible for the child until it was old enough to work (in the view of the parents, not the State). The man would not concern himself with nappies or late night crying. He would concern himself with earning enough money to put food on the table. Once the child was old enough to work it no longer placed an economic burden on the family but instead contributed to it. A working child quickly becomes mature and learns the value of money (i.e. hard work). Compare to teenagers now.
In this way, men could feel proud of his accomplishment in producing children that would continue his line and enhance the family’s wealth. Today, there is no incentive for a man to have children because they represent a material risk that can lead to the man’s ruin.
This is why I got sperm cryo’d at 24… put the good stuff on ice and you have the option of having a healthy child at any point in your life.
Every man knows that having kids means less money, less free time and more stress.
But still, in most cases men are the ones who want children, not women. I can’t quote any study / statistics to back this up; it’s just a personal impression.
Whatever the initial reason (boredom, social pressure, stale marriage), most fathers I’ve talked to yearn for the bachelor carefree life, even though none of them openly admits having children was a mistake.
so what if fathers have diminishing rights? salmon have to swim up stream and jump up waterfalls for miles so they can lay their eggs.
we used to have a sense like that. it was called “duty” and “responsibility”. words which are cryptonite in today’s society
the attitute of a boy is “live hard, die young.” being a man is not about ditching your obligations and responsiblity. it’s about embracing it.
we must make children for our grandchildren and our race. the preciousness and happiness of having a boy or a girl does outweigh the freedom to stay up until 3AM eating chips watching football
BS, indeed.
I can take kids or leave them. One thing that I cannot, and will not, accept is an unplanned pregnancy. No sir, not in this lifetime. The best advice my father ever gave me was to not have children. What he really meant was to wait for the right time, but given how I’m poor and destined to a life of poverty if I have unplanned children, this notion could be permanent.
The first quarter of my life is gone, and aside from a few accomplishments, that stage was spent failing forward. I made many mistakes and learned from them. I am better, but broke as a joke.
I refuse to live like this for the rest of my life. I am capable of more than this.
An unplanned pregnancy will set me back permanently. I scheduled a consultation for a vasectomy. If all goes well, I will be sterile by the end of this year and then can focus more energy on establishing a career and earning more money.
I plan to live a full life. I’m going to live this life like nobody in my family ever had or ever dreamed of because of their dogmatic beliefs.
I make my own luck.