235 thoughts on “What To Do If You Have A Worthless Degree”

1. What To Do If ???? Have A Worthless Degree
   Is a word missing?

   1. Not if you’re on the LOLCats website, no. But here, yeah, a bit.

   2. Gotta love the irony.

2. How’s one supposed to repay $150,000 by being a poet?

   1. Write really fucking brilliant poetry and sell it to Bill Gates for top dollar.
      Yeah, I’m a problem solver.

   2. Teach others poetry for a higher prize. Because you know, ponzi schemes can continue infinitely

   3. Sell cocaine on the side till the poetry pans out, rappers do it all the time.

      1. Lol! Brilliant!

   4. Poetry degree?
      “We can light this fire between us, come with me and touch my penis”
      There, I just wrote poetry. I am now officially a poet and I don’t have a poetry degree.

3. What To Do If Have A Worthless Degree
   Good article, but can we get an edit on the title, both on the front page and at the top of this article?

   1. Done

      1. Thanks Roosh.

   2. Just curious. What was the title before you changed it?

      1. I didn’t change it, Roosh did. The title was in my original post.

      2. Read his comment again lol

4. There are a few university degrees that will get you good jobs and be worth it, but no one gets them anymore anyways. STEM degrees are really the only 4 year degrees that make sense. The world needs engineers.

   1. Math used to be considered the language of the upper classes in England , similar to French in Pre Revolution Russia. Alas in the United States it was not to be so for mathematics , it usually made you repulsive to women. The crash of 2008 is changing that now, I personally know a couple of political science majors who bit the bullet and now are majoring in math, engineering , or premed.

      1. Premed or medicine should never be mentioned in the same breath as mathematics or engineering. Most people in (pre)med couldn’t solve an equation even if their lives depend on it.

         1. That is true, I do not use anything tougher than algebra.

         2. exactly, solving equations is extremely important to decode hypergamy and what turns women on, to aid mental masturbation, and to live life to the fullest. Fuck those who don’t take the alpha path of IT or engineering

         3. Piss off, troll.

         4. IT = FEDORA WEARING KHAL DROGO!
            BOW DOWN YOU FUCKING BLUE PILL FAGGOT

         5. Um no.
            People doing premed who cannot do basic math don’t get into MD courses: in the rest of the world where medicine is a 5 year undergraduate degree they don’t get out of intermediate year.
            I know spin cycles for hydrogen molecules and applied matrix math is simple for most of you, but it weeds a lot of people out of pre-med.
            We do have to understand MRIs. And Bayesian statistics. (And yes, I do have a medical degree)

         6. Understanding MRI means having a solid grip on quantum mechanics. And that’s something few M.D.’s have even a rudimentary understanding of.

5. Two things are also possible, if you had good grades and a computer science/ engineering degree law school may in fact be for you. Take the patent bar pass it and get admitted to the USPTO as a patent agent. Then take two months take the LSAT and do well you should get in a top 20 law school. If you go straight through including summers law school is two years. You will be hired after Law School if you do this, Patent Law sucks and is boring but it pays and after 3-5 years you start your own firm. Please note you must major in physics, computer science, mathematics at the bachelors level. If you chose the life sciences or biotechnology you will need a masters, MD , or PhD .
   Medical school is also an option and three year programs are everywhere. Many scholarships are available with a catch, you must accept Primary care and stay in the state of the program you choose for five years. The only prerequisites for medical school are biology 1&2, chemistry 1&2, physics 1&2, organic chemistry 1&2. If you are serious that is four semesters at your local community colleges after your worthless degree plus three years in a US school or 27 months in a Caribbean School. If you have forty grand and don’t take loans I recommend the Caribbean
   27 month program you will have no new debt. If you do not have 40k sitting around do well on the MCAT and try to get into a state school they are way cheaper.

   1. Med school has it’s own problems. Plenty of rungs to climb and
      hoops to jump through towards a medical career. Many women these days
      decide to go to med school because they “don’t know what else to do” or
      because “they were born to be a doctor” or “they want to care for the weak” (the associated professional status is of course of no consideration whatsoever…). The competition is crushing, and there are about 3 or 4 women for every guy.

      1. It is 62 percent female at my medical school and 65 percent nationwide. Women (with the exception of Asians , I include India in Asia ) do not do the competitive specialties , are not attractive, and are unlike the feminist do nothings you meet in easy majors. The work is tough and I have no social life but the money is there to be made and I will be debt free in 5-6 years at worst but I live like a college student ( shit car, old cloths, my only real expense is my apartment ).

         1. I don’t think that 65 percent figure is correct. It should be nearly equally split.

         2. The % females at med schools has been increasing steadily over last few decades, and is projected to increase even further. Expect 75% females before 2025.
            You know what happens to a space when it becomes thoroughly feminized?

      2. There are not 3 or 4 women for every guy in medical school. It is about equally split. There ARE three or four (or more) pre-med undergrad women for every pre-med man. I don’t know which you meant.
         The competition is very tough. Some 3/4 of med school applicants did undergraduate research (a.k.a. pretend to do research, let’s be honest), which is unnecessary.
         Yes, it would be nice if women laid off the dreams of being doctors. Many of these women doctors get married and have kids with male professionals, and they end up dropping out of the full-time work force for whatever reasons, causing our famous doctor shortage.

         1. “There are not 3 or 4 women for every guy in medical school.”
            Well, you’re right, this figure might be somewhat inflated. The gender ratio won’t remain an equal split. A lot of med schools are already past 60% female.

   2. If you get into a t14, yeah, patent bar + other skills is good. But patent bar alone is worthless.

      1. I would disagree with that statement. If you have a computer science/ engineering background there is work for you doing prior art searches, drafting, and arguing before the Administrative Law Judge to get you clients patent allowed. You need a JD to appeal a denial to the federal court system, but not to deal with the administrative agency. There is such a dearth of attorneys with computer science / engineering backgrounds and patent law knowledge that law firms are paying for agents to attend law school.

         1. Nope. Plain old no. Engineers who went to law school are out of work. T14 or bust. If your other qualifications get you a job, what in the HELL are you going to law school for? The opportunity cost of three years down the shitter for someone who’s apparently making great bank as an engineer already is staggering.
            Outside of T14 is garbage and firms do not want to hire nearly anyone from such schools. Law review may get you somewhere, may not, but that’s max 10% of people. Rest of them are serving you coffee at Starbucks. Yes, with JDs.

   3. Not worth it. Absoulte waste of time and money. You will have wasted 7 years studying the two degrees, not to mention another year on the bar exam, over $200,000 in debt just to be a patent lawyer? Not only that but with an incredible high level of debt, you may be disbarred from practicing the law or even working as an engineer. That is a reality for many people.
      LOL- you could have earned a huge amount of money in those 8 years alone in a sales job and earning bonuses and high commissions. Further supplementing your income by doing a side job or starting your own business with your income and investing in stocks, shares, mutual funds and ISA.

6. Like I said before,
   Some people might think STEM is good bet without much risk. While these are certainly the most useful subjects you could study, no one should expect to get rich with it. And if things are continuing the way they are today, you are going to be lucky *if* you manage to land a job after graduating college with a STEM degree. Think of the massive outsourcing, companies cutting jobs, armies of H1B immigrants you are going to have to compete with etc etc. Professors, even those in STEM, typically don’t give a shit about their students’ employment prospects as long as they remain tenured and as long as the money keeps flowing in.
   The entire ‘STEM shortage’ mantra is a lie of *gigantic* proportions. There is no shortage of skilled engineers. There is a shortage of people willing to slave away for employers for almost no compensation.
   I’m also sceptical about the feasibility of switching to the trades. Someone who loves doing mathematics and likes science isn’t suddenly going to be interested in plumbing, fixing electricity or building dog houses, even under economic hardship. A lot of these people prefer serfdom and years of abuse and exploitation by some PI in gradschool (which has also become a massive scam) over reschooling in the trades or entrepreneurship

   1. If you have a stem degree and no desire to return to academia there is a huge need for patent examiners at the USPTO, and patent agents in the private sector.

      1. Everybody wants to have a high-paid patent examiner job. That’s why there are likely to be several hundreds of applicants for every opening.

         1. But the USPTO has low retention because everyone goes private.

   2. im in that position right now. Iv been a science type my whole life and switching to the trades seems way off from what I’ve done (neuroscience). I’m thinking of switching into computer science kuz at least it keeps my doors open in te research fields.
      Trades seem cool but it’s true it does feel weird to go in the total opposite direction.

      1. Hey Clark, you have an email?
         The neuroscience is interesting

   3. > The entire ‘STEM shortage’ mantra is a lie of *gigantic* proportions.
      No.
      I’m an engineer, and I do well.
      The lie isn’t that STEM is important, the lie is that STEM *degrees* are important.
      You need to have *skills*, and how you get them doesn’t matter. And, even in STEM, the universities aren’t what they used to be in terms of teaching skills. You’re better off learning by doing these days.

      1. So because you managed to land a job, there is a STEM shortage and more STEM graduates should be knocking on employers’ doors?

         1. Give me a skilled, driven .NET guy with the right attitudes and I employ him myself.
            I have enough vision for great products to be made for a hundred of them.
            I can’t stand people who whine that good people don’t find work. It’s work to be done that can’t find good people.

         2. Putting more graduates on the job market isn’t going to solve employers’ cries for more skilled people. Certainly not if those same employers don’t want to invest time and money in teaching people the needed skills themselves.

         3. > Putting more graduates on the job market isn’t going to solve employers’ cries for more skilled people.
            Complete agreement.
            > Certainly not if those same employers don’t want to invest time and money in teaching people the needed skills themselves.
            This is called training. Trainee programs.
            It makes only sense for relatively menial tasks that still require some lower form of skill, but not for highly qualified software developers or some such.
            For those you need one of two things:
            – The legal concept of indentures where the skill you teach people is for you to exploit over a contractually agreed period of time. I think it was Ben Franklin who made a run for it being under such a contract, and obviously liberalism did away with the construct.
            – Autodidacts
            The latter are what keeps the internet going right now.

         4. What I would like to see is for intelligent people to take matters in their own hands. To take responsibility over their schooling back from the academic complex. The internet is a great tool for this, full of unexplored potential.
            Regarding traineeships; they are to be called for what they are: a racket. Just like unpaid internships, they are a source for cheap labour for employers all under the pretense of learning the necessary skills. With the exception of the trades, where you have apprenticeships and can actually learn something.

         5. I was thinking about the latter. Here in Germany, apprenticeships are common and I have a lot more respect for them on average than for university degrees.
            Of course there’s also the kind that you think of, but everyone doing something called “training” will have to ask themselves: Do I actually gain any skills around here? If they are too dumb to do that, they are too dumb to do non-menial tasks in about any field anyway.

         6. What’s your opinion on academic credential inflation in Germany?

         7. How does Germany provide enforcement of quality for apprenticeships? For example, how do they ensure that apprentices are actually learning what they need to know for jobs that actually exist and need employees.
            One big problem the trades have in the United States is the perception that trade schools and apprenticeships are corrupt rackets. Many are not, but sadly some are. On the East Coast, Lincoln Tech is one of the biggest trade schools and has had several scandals which makes people wary. One gets the impression that west of Chicago they tend to be more ethical.

         8. First of all, some trades (the ones I respect most and usually think of when I speak of trades) don’t come in the form of schools at all.
            People “learn” (which is the usual, modest term that is used to describe it) by working for freelancers. A guy who learns to become an electrician learns from and at a guy who is an electrician (the latter needs to have a title, the “meister”). Same with auto-mechanics, painters and plasterers and many other trades.
            In most of those forms, the trainee also goes to some for of school that is basically run by the government itself, but I don’t think that this part is of any importance. They go there one day in a five day week or so.
            This is only a part of the whole trades, though, and my knowledge is very limited (I’m an academic myself). I know there’s a plethora of mixed forms of learning and studying, both with freelancers and (mostly public) schools.
            I think what got the German trades their reputation is what I described above: the tradition of freelancers teaching their own staff.
            But even in schools scandals are rare. Not because they are so good if you ask me, but because socialism has the tendency of leveling the playing field: You don’t get excellence, but you don’t get the wolf of wall street either.

         9. My first-hand knowledge is about maths, which I have my degree in, and compsci.
            I graduated with distinction, and a fellow student was jokingly remarking I had “the worst distinction in my class”.
            The question is not if inflation, but how much inflation.
            I graduated about a decade ago, back then I would say maths was still somewhat solid at the institution where I did that (Dortmund, and in Germany the universities are regarded as pretty much the same in quality. It won’t be true, but there still are no institutions with a special reputation).
            I learned from my teachers that maths used to be taught on a higher level ten, twenty or thirty years ago, but it still wasn’t nearly were the other faculties were.
            Compsci was pretty much a joke. I started doing compsci and only switched to maths because compsci there was taught, with only few exceptions, by and for idiots.
            Maybe maths was inflated, but it was still fascinating and as an undergraduate you couldn’t tell.
            So that’s the gist of what I can tell you from first-hand experience.
            Generally I think the reputability of the sciences are better measured per-subject rather than per-country. I’ve heard nothing good about compsci from my English coworkers in Cambridge (UK) either, all of them having been maths and physics graduates from the reputable university there. What they told me sounded pretty much like what my own experience was in Germany.

         10. “but there still are no institutions with a special reputation”
             Then to think it used to be quite a different story, say a century ago, when Germany was the center of the universe with regard to mathematics and theoretical physics.

         11. Oh, if you think *that* far back, pre-war times, it’s of course a whole new story.
             Germany has been lobotomized by the war.

         12. Says the guy who has never had to un fuck piss poor non IEEE code.

         13. What?

         14. Some random kid that thinks he can drop code and knows what .net is can’t code anything compared to a trained professional. Driven or not. Besides if they really were driven they would find some time to get a certification.

         15. Jobs, Gates

      2. Do u think accreditation is worthless then? I feel like a CS degree is probably better recognized than being a programmer on your own.
         I could be wrong but I’ve scoured forums And there are two camps on this.
         I guess I’m wondering what your take is. I’m down to throw down for some official training of it gives me the most options.

         1. It’s a tough question indeed, but I’m sure at least on this one:
            *The only worth a degree has comes from other people’s perception of it rather than the actual skills you might have acquired to get it.*
            And I think this perceived value is eroding fast, because degrees are handed out easily even to complete failures who should never have been admitted to an academic institution in the first place. Such developments doesn’t go unnoticed by employers.
            There’s also a distinct danger that universities pose to youngsters in that there’s a lot of liberal victim-worship they might believe and drive ambition out of them.
            However, there is another thing visiting a university can do for you besides the degree, and that’s connections to people. This has nothing to do with corruption or cheating or something like that, but every great man needs other great men to unlock his greatness. If you’re skilled (or have the ambition to become skilled) you will eventually need other people who can complement you.
            For example, I have found an absolutely great partner. He knows how to sell, and he knows *what* to sell. I can write software, but I wouldn’t know what to write first and whom to sell it to. Together, we’re a great team. Without him, I’d be pretty much a no-one. Together, we can become millionaires easily. That guy gives a crap about degrees, obviously, and also doesn’t have one himself. Since universities are where smart people congregate, you might be more lucky to find potential partners there. Just be sure to recognize smart people: They are not necessarily those with good spelling and refined speech.
            In conclusion I would say that the degrees themselves are in the process of becoming worthless, yes.

         2. Harsh. But I get your point. Thanks for the feedback.

         3. “degrees are handed out easily even to complete failures who should never have been admitted to an academic institution in the first place”
            I could write an entire rant about that.

         4. That’s really the problem. To many people spending time working a bong rather than learning the subject. The system has quotas to maintain to keep the budget in tact. These people then generate chaff in the job market that has to be sorted through, often costing a qualified person in the short term in the useless HR department that only understands letters and not accomplishment. An engineer with a solid STEM degree is easy to identify, and is always better than the undisciplined DIYer.
            That said I have been an engineer for more than a decade, and started a business with well structured vc backing to escape competing with inferior people to find work. The initial pay is low, with a lot of blue pillers trying to tell you to give up and get a real job. After five years the same people call looking for jobs or leads, the pay is better and of its going to go to hell it will be on my watch.

         5. Well, if someone goes to a decent university, the chances they will be good or teachable are very high.

      3. I have an engineering degree, and have done well with it. But within the last decade, I’ve noticed a HUGE influx of workers from India and China. So much so, that in my last job, they accounted for maybe 80% of the engineers. These foreign workers are loved because they’ll do the work for 2/3rds of the pay, and happily work 16 hour days, endlessly… for they are just happy to be in this country (USA).
         So, if a person is a new engineer these days, he should prepare himself to compete against this tidal wave of drones, and not be surprised that wages have been pushed down and long hours are expected.

         1. I’d be happy to be in the USA, too, but I won’t get a work permit until I can buy my way into it. I think a million of investment is the current barrier, or having oneself employed by a loyal business partner.
            So I have little sympathy for those who call ambitious immigrants “drones”.
            There is problematic immigration, and there’s Asians.

         2. “So, if a person is a new engineer these days, he should prepare himself to compete against this tidal wave of drones, and not be surprised that wages have been pushed down and long hours are expected.”
            That’s exactly my point.

         3. Haha I have engineering friends and they always tell me “the engineering building only has black haired ppl aka Asians and Indians.

         4. I, too, have an engineering degree. I stopped working in the field in the 1990s. I was a project manager on a federal project with a major US construction and engineering firm as the prime contractor. I was in a meeting with maybe 30 to 40 engineers and managers. I suddenly realized that I was the only American in the room. And this was on a federal government project with a mandated use American companies requirement.
            We used to joke that you could tell the degree of involvement of Bechtel in any project using the Patel index. The Patel index was the percentage of Patel’s in the project phone book. For those that don’t know, there is a sector/state/region of India where a huge number of people took the last name Patel when they started to use last names sometime in the 1800s. Bechtel recruits from that region because the schools are just as good as those in the west, the people all speak English, and they will work 60 to 80 hours a week for peanuts compared to US citizens. The reason is that all the money goes back home and for $30,000 a year they are kings in their home towns.

      4. It isn’t “STEM shortage”.
         It’s shortage of manual intelligence.

7. What we need is more of the youth to innovate and build things.Seriously, there are many intelligent and creative young folks but rather than create a startup they go to law school, medical school, banking firms, politics, etc. Many of these young folks are too distracted, lack confidence in their potential (This was my problem), or are just too rigid and follow along the paths they think they should follow
   We need a push for more science and technological innovation. Logic and facts over rhetoric. We also need more manufacturing as well. A jump away from all this social media sites and whatnot.

   1. “The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.” – Bertrand Russell

      1. So true. I let my doubt get me poor grades back in high school. Mind always wandered and just not sure.

         1. Currently in high school, and I am more intelligent than the majority of my peers (looking into STEM), but my mind wanders quite a bit and I often get poor grades, but great grades when I’m 100% concentrated.
            Probably my aspergers, but I’m still giving it all I’ve got. I figure it’s my partial duty to prevent the spread of political correctness in science.

   2. I hear you on this. I have had in mind to write about my journey into creating physical products that satisfy me and also help the world. Will think about submitting an article. There is no easy 1-2-3 to this, but its important and possible to distill the key ingredients for encouragement.

   3. “We need a push for more science and technological innovation. Logic and
      facts over rhetoric. We also need more manufacturing as well. A jump
      away from all this social media sites and whatnot.”
      Will never happen. The elites in America only want obedient little drones who will keep their heads down.

8. And after you’ve done all that… get your passport and get out. Leave it all behind. Live and work abroad and if you have any avenue at all for second citizenship take it. If not live and work in a place for five years, maybe get married (to a MUCH better woman than you’ll find the U.S.) and live.
   Right now you can’t have your passport revoked for non-payment of student loans. This is true … for now. Taxes just got added to the list on top of child support and court orders and undoubtedly every other form of debt will cancel your passport eventually. After all the only reason to want to leave is for a “vacation” right? So requiring exit visas (permission to leave the plantation massa) isn’t immoral. Oh no, they are just helping you with your priorities which should be pay them, pay them and pay them in that order. So what happens if you leave?
   Oh sure your “credit” will be wrecked and they’ll never forgive you and you can’t declare bankruptcy and and and and and and yes all this is true. If your playing on their board by their rules you are finished if you do this and that is exactly what the way they have made the game. So why play it? There power ends at the border. The rest of the world doesn’t care about federal student loan debt.
   Get 20 copies of your transcripts and degrees, get them certified, and get out. There is no moral obligation for you to go down with the usa ship. You owe nothing to the parasitic monster it has become. They believe and will use violence to force you to work for them. Say no. The worlds a big place for a young man and there is no reason you should sacrifice 20 to 30 years working to profit those liars and con artists.
   In order:
   1. Investigate if you ANY claim to 2nd citizenship
   2. If yes DO IT NOW
   3. Get lots of copies of your transcripts as the second those loans go into default the school won’t give you your papers
   4. GET ON THE PLANE
   5. Discover freedom. REAL freedom. Be happy and live.

   1. The rest of the world DOES care about Uncle Sugar leaning on them, and after 9/11/2001 many of the tax havens/flee to places all signed extradition agreements. Since student loans are now officially nationalized by our loving socialist master, your advice will end up costing young men an awful lot when their flee-to destination deports them on command from Uncle Sugar.

      1. You keep your fears to yourself. Remo’s advice is solid. Nothing is achieved without risk.

         1. You forget your place, I’ll speak as I wish.
            Now, you’re free live in the dark and to take advice that will get you put into prison. It’s not my concern about the choices you personally wish to make, I was just throwing out a bit of a warning since most people don’t keep up on trivialities, like post 9/11 legislation and agreements. But if going through extradition because you weren’t aware of how long the arm of the law really is (it doesn’t stop at the border, sorry) sounds like a great time to you, then go for it.

         2. The law is a door on an empty field and only the mad will go through it.

         3. You don’t get a choice when armed men show up.
            There is nothing wrong with taking a risk. But if you don’t know the risk(s) you’re taking and think that it’s all peaches and cream and “their power stops at the border” then you should at least hope that somebody comes along nice enough to tell you the risk(s). Informed consent is much easier to plan around than waking up at two in the morning to a flash bang grenade and ten armed men wearing black masks.

         4. All good points made, Jefferson. I can only add that whereas there are remote places on the planet where one will be untouchable, these countries are 4th world shit-holes, like Liberia and similar wastelands. These places are corrupt, have no economy, and everyone is fighting each other for the last sewer rat to eat for dinner

         5. Have to agree with you here GOJ and to add to what you’re saying a lot of the times I see comments on ROK about guys saying they’re going to offshore their money but I bet you in real life they wouldn’t have a fucking clue how to go about it. A lot of guys here think that a Swiss bank account is the answer because they saw it in a James Bond movie or one of their friends told them that that’s the way to go yet don’t realize the Swiss recently are coming under greater U.S and E.U pressure and are largely giving up information on British and especially American account holders. Tough guy talk is much easier than actual implementation. On a side note good to see you back here mate it’s been a while since I’ve seen one of your comments.

         6. Bitcoin?

         7. There is a way out.
            Get your second passport, and then renounce your citizenship before defaulting. As long as it is not currently a tax debt, you are still safe.
            Another option is to pick a jurisdiction that does not have extradition with the US.

         8. True true… too bad they aren’t enlightened, clean, and 1st world like Detroit. ;D

         9. QUOTE: “There is a way out. Get your second passport”
            Getting a second passport is very difficult these days. It’s anoying hearing uninformed dumbasses like you just spew shit without full knowledge of something.

         10. Yes, I was going to say this but you beat me to it. Definitely get your second passport, or third passport. There are many countries where doing this isn’t difficult, and they’re not shitholes in Africa,or hard to get into like New Zeland. Once that is done, renounce your citizenship and you’ll be untouchable
             But the best thing to do is to never go to college in the first place.
             I’m glad I never went to college or signed any student loan. They’re the most predatory loans in existence. They should be banned since they’re nothing but a huge scam. No credit checks, no background checks to get approved for these loans, they hand them out like water. I resistant brainwashed people and society who were beating me on the head with the whole to go college and you’ll be successful BS lie. I still run into women who judge me for not getting a degree, I laugh at their stupidity.

         11. I doubt they’re going to do that for student loans. But cops have done that before for other BS reasons. I really wish people would stop fearing the police, and giving up their rights. People should stand up and protest student loans, since they are down right the worst loans in existence. They can literally own your ass and all your property if you fail to fully pay back those loans. They can seize homes, property, lottery winnings, inheritances, garnish your wages and force you into poverty to the point where people who live on public assistance are richer than you, despite you working 2 full time jobs.

         12. Second passport option is viable, but the window on that is closing pretty quickly, unless you’ve got natural rights to another passport (for example, Irish in American can get an Ireland passport if they’re first or second generation I think, or at least could at one time).
             The non-extradition, that’s what I was referencing. A lot has changed regarding extradition, so it behooves anybody thinking of making that leap to do a lot of legal investigation beforehand. Many places that used to be great “don’t extradite” countries have changed their tune, and generally they don’t announce it. Expat information sites are a great resource for this kind of thing, most folks would be shocked at how few independent non-extradition nations remain in the post 9/11 world.
             I know it sounds like I’m being paranoid, I’m not, I just want men to do the research they need beforehand. Skipping town isn’t nearly as neat and easy as it used to be, and going in with assumptions instead of hard knowledge can turn out pretty ugly these days. Be prepared, is what I’m saying.

         13. Thanks man, good to see you too.
             I was all about going exPat in the 1990’s. Did all the research, all the legwork (www wasn’t much help at the time, it was still in its infancy), had the entire path mapped. Was ready to go on a moment’s notice and had a nice life planned out involving palm trees, sultry exotic women, rum and leisure. Suddenly 9/11 hits and everything I’d planned for literally vanished into the wind, from a legal standpoint.
             Hear ya’ about Swiss banks. The IRS and Switzerland made an agreement a few years back that renders their famous anonymity null and void. Same for a lot of other off shore areas. A guy going in without a full understanding of the legalities in this new totalitarian world is setting himself up for failure.

         14. I hear that some SWAT teams go out five times a day. Shocking. The reason people fear the police is because they are much more heavily armed than the population at large. Somehow, with all this gun control and limiting the types of guns the citizens can have, the police now have overwhelming, special forces style force.

         15. Well now that I don’t entire agree with. My StG-58, that shoots .308, in a semi-automatic configuration, can kill as many and as quickly as their SMG’s. I think the *perception* is put out by the MSM that the government is “all that” weaponry wise, but they’re not compared to the average American gun owner.
             Where they get you is in numbers. But even that can be accounted for if enough armed men are willing to come to your defense. The rancher example from a couple of months ago comes to mind here. The government backed down and left with its tail between its legs.

         16. why not just buy my underwear? not regulated by anyone

         17. I agree about fire rates and all that. My point is in general, if they come knocking at your door they will generally use overwhelming force. By overwhelming force I mean numbers as well as weaponry. I know what you mean about the rancher example but that is an exception. Generally when these SWAT teams go out, they take unarmed people by surprise. And lets not also discount the fact that they are now acquiring drones.
             As an example of armed men coming to your defense, remember the example of the Black Panthers. It won’t always work.
             Generally, I don’t think the fight against oppressive government will not be won by armed insurrection. The USG has bigger and better weapons, and organized force under its control. I’m curious about your suggestion that the average gun owner is better armed. The USG has been known to drop bombs on people’s homes.

         18. Are you speaking about the UK or the US? In the US in most states, people can basically have similar firepower as the police, but I know in the UK, they can’t.

         19. Can you get a tank or an APC and fill it with guys toting M16s?I don’t believe you can do that as a private citizen in the US.

         20. Well, the answer is quite simple, don’t go and live in a country that has extradition laws with America!

      2. No one is going to extradite you over a student loan. You are just not that important. Extradition is very costly not to mention a royal headache for the country the U.S. is making the request of. How do they profit from taking someone who hasn’t done anything in their country, hasn’t violated a law that is illegal in both places, and spending resources finding him and dragging him to the airport? The world cup is on! It’s Songkran! Maybe next week… the beast isn’t as omnipotent as they tell you it is.

         1. QUOTE: “No one is going to extradite you over a student loan. You are just not that important. Extradition is very costly not to mention a royal headache for the country the U.S. is making the request of. How do they profit from taking someone who hasn’t done anything in their country,”
            I hear what your are saying, but it’s not about profit, its about controlling the sheep.

      3. Student loans are now all owed to the Gov’t? In truth though its unlikely that the FedG will pursue extradition over student debt don’t you think? Hacking into the Pentagon however…

         1. Yes, they nationalized the student loan “industry” under the Obamacare bill. Freaking amazing, eh?
            As somebody else said, it’s not about the money, it’s about the control. The entire exPat presence around the world (of Americans) was a trifling, a nearly statistically insignificant thing prior to 9/11, yet the State department went through Herculean efforts to basically make exPatting as difficult as humanly possible. Our laws for expatriating now are beyond what even the USSR or Nazi Germany demanded, the IRS still claims your life at least 10 years after you renounce your citizenship and they WILL have you extradited for as little as neglecting to pay them two red cents. They’re ruthless.
            There’s no real money in it for them (quite true), so why did they do it? Control. The problem of 9/11 had nothing to do, whatsoever, with men *leaving* the U.S. to live abroad, but there you go, the reality we live in has no resemblance to anything logical.

         2. I think you have a very good point. The FedG is a jealous god. They also claim your life (i.e. tax returns) even if you have never set foot in the States.

   2. Its not as easy as you make it out to be. I highly doubt you’ve been outside the usa to investigate what you are asserting.

      1. Have you been outside the U.S.?

         1. I sure as fuck have . Europe and south america.
            Jefferson made some good points, and my observation is that since the UBS banking scandal that all of europe is crapping their pants. It got to the point where no european bank wanted an american customer even for basic personal banking. It used to be for example in 2005 if you wanted to open a basic euro account (no interest nor savings) you could, no questions asked, and you didn’t even need to reside in Germany.
            Today though in every EU country that is on the euro will require that an American 1. reside in the country of where he wants to open his account and 2. Show document of proof of employment in said country. And of course a mandatory W-9 form.
            The bottom line is that any country that wants to use the dollar has to table dance for the USA. This includes that each country do what America asks them which includes extradite any US citizen who neglected to pay a library fine or anything.
            It sucks and until the dollar collapses thats how it will be.
            south America has some more freedom as that part of the globe very much resents the aggression of the USA, but the economies in SA are very weak and unstable.

         2. You need to investigate Asia. They don’t dance as quickly for the U.S. and Russia is another good choice. If you have a European passport by all means work on that one else go abroad. Not once in China has any bank ever asked me to fill out IRS papers, not here, not in Thailand, Laos, Mongolia, Philippines. The world is not America despite what they tell you.

         3. Russia has a 13% top tax rate, and they threaten to jail bankers for obeying FATCA.
            Heh.

         4. China is still technically a communist state and that means that they can just take anything you have at the whim of a decision and there is no protocol needed.
            I have found Russia to be very much like a struggling country economically, and the only two cities woth living in would be either St. Petersburg or Moscow, both are fuckin’ expensive.
            I agree that Asia is doing much better, but I do not care for Asian chicks. I want to be in a part of the world where I have a quick access to meet the ethnic type of female I want.

         5. “China is still technically a communist state and that means that they can just take anything you have at the whim of a decision and there is no protocol needed.”
            The USA does this all the time. You think the “Congress” is anything more than bought and paid for whores for the international banking cartels and corporate slavemasters?

         6. What type is that?

         7. I’m not quite sure what your point is here. The IRS and other entities can take your bank account and other stuff pretty easily here to but we just pretend to have a due process.

         8. If one is living and working in Russia, you can be rest assured that the IRS will not take your Russian bank account.
            Not all places in Asia are completely separate from the USA system, but a few are.

         9. Most Thai banks, as of today, will not take on any US citizen as a depositor. I follow a Thai centric expat blog and they say it is making it impossible to get a Thai retirement visa, as part of the retirement visa process requires you to deposit a certain amount in a Thai national bank. So far, the banks in the Philippines have not gone that far, but the Philippines government is definitely table dancing for the US NGOs on the human trafficing issue. So, they may go the same way soon. One issue of note is that the Philippines willl absolutely not extradite a man for CS arrears. It has been a safe haven for a long time for guys driven out of their countries on the basis of imputed income resulting in impossible to pay CS and jail.
            If you are willing to marry a local, many places will not extradite you over taxes or debt in your home country. You can even pursue citizenship in your new country. Think of it as the reverse of the Russian bride green card scam.

         10. The IRS is not required to use due process. If you think they are you need to wake up.

      2. I’m writing this from the city of Chengdu (that’s in China) and I haven’t been back to the states since 2008. Yes I am sure you can convince yourself its impossible. That’s fine and I hope your chains rest lightly upon you.

   3. Get those transcripts translated into Spanish, French, etc. Learn a foreign language. Spend a couple hundred bucks to see a lawyer before acting on any advice you see here.

   4. Think about becoming an English teacher overseas. Most East Asian nations only require that you are a native speaker of English and have a four-year degree (three for Brits). Any BA/BS will do.
      My anthropology degree was not useless after all.

      1. I know someone who did this. It can be lonely, since you’ll be totally out of place, and dating might be weird and difficult depending on the country but at least you’ll be free from the student loans.

         1. I am someone who did this ten years ago. Loving it! Japanese women can be crazy but still a bunch of fun. My teaching job is easy, fun and gives me 180 days holiday.

         2. Japanese women are completely insane.

      2. Hey WhiteGuyinJapan,
         I’ve actually been considering doing this for a year to get some traveling under my belt and to save up some cash to fund my next move.
         Friends in Korea tell me they’re having a good time and that its a pretty cool experience.
         Do you mind if we correspond a bit on this? Can I get your email? More input the better.
         I think I’m down to do it, my only real fear is that it will look stupid on my resume… like a paid vacation… but maybe it would look good as it would make me more personable.
         Best,
         Mike

         1. For more info, check out http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/index.php
            Not sure how to discretely give you my email. Bit new to Disqus.

      3. I’m teaching in Asia now; it’s a pretty decent line of work for a liberal arts major. Saving up $15k or more a year after taxes and costs is possible. You can take that money and invest or buy/start a business after a few years. Japan, S Korea, Taiwan are good bets; there’s also the Middle East.
         One of the unspoken benefits of these jobs is that your local co-workers often will not expect you to fall into the rigorous lockstep conformity routine demanded by domestic office environments. Because you’re foreign, you have some leeway in terms of acceptable conduct that the locals will write off as “oh, he’s strange because he’s foreign”.
         Many affluent Asian countries also tend to have large expat communities for those not afflicted with yellow fever.

      4. It’s nice if you’re a recent graduate who just wants to get drunk and chase skirts, therefore does not mind being a foreign clown in a classroom for a year, but it’s a joke for any adult looking to have a real future.

   5. To those who would like to claim it’s impossible to leave I’m sorry but you are simply incorrect. Is there risk? Of course but I would argue there is far greater risk in staying. Lets consider the “what is more likely” test.
      Will they spend North of $50,000 to extradite you, put bureaucrats, police, and all the other administrative functionaries required to do this on notice then go through the lengthy process of having the host country pick you up, take you to the airport, meet the FBI agent, and return home or will they keep that for the Ed Snowdens in the world when it really matters. How often do you think extradition happens anyway?
      You’ve got hundreds of thousands of people not paying their mortgage and still living in their houses. Why? Because even with computer automation it still takes people on the ground to bring about violence compliance (yes yes drones I know but no they won’t launch drones at you). The computer will say you owe XXX and you have no address on file that is current. Do they *know* what country you are in if you don’t dutifully walk into a consulate and register yourself? Even if you do this will the consulate automatically alert the drone responsible for student loans?
      They are going to go through the Air China and Air Nippon manifests to find a guy who owes student loans? Do you think China/Japan/Asian country is going to take such a request seriously? What’s in it for them? How often do you intend to make this request Mr. Bureaucrat? 10,000 times? 100,000? Our police have nothing better to do than round up people who owe YOU money? Do we get a cut? What if he has nothing? What if he’s married to one of ours? Are you going to send us money to take care of his child while he’s in jail? I see… we’ll get right on that…. by the way citizen X of ours said something nasty about the current ruling regime. That’s illegal here. Are you going to honor our request to give that citizen back? You won’t? I see….
      The system isn’t perfect but its your choice to be a slave to it or not. Not every slave would agree to run away because fear. And if fear is more important to you than 30 years of slavery (which will only get worse and likely much MUCH worse) then stay in America, you are exactly what they are looking for.
      Good luck

      1. “Not every slave would agree to run away because fear. And if fear is more important to you than 30 years of slavery (which will only get worse and likely much MUCH worse) then stay in America, you are exactly what they are looking for.”
         This is exactly right, great analogy.

      2. Ever seen “They Live”? They will soon have drones like that (smaller in fact) that will be able to monitor everyone via iris scans.

   6. This is great advice. I have been preparing to walk off the plantation within the next year and a half. (I even have a countdown app to the day I’m free on my phone.)
      The only nagging responsibility are the student loans I owe. I have been considering just walking away from those, too, when I expatriate. When the education bubble we are in pops, I may even get lucky enough to get a bailout. (Probably not since they need lots of peons to pay the interest on this education kingdom they’ve created.)
      But it disgusts me that I spent so much time and money getting a degree that’s becoming more worthless by the day. As as you pointed out, it’s the way they made the game. They fuck the little man over every day with a table that’s tilted, why not return the favor?

      1. This is true. I have children in this predicament (I tried to convince them to go into a trade) and as long as you pay something they will not come knocking at your door, even if your door is just down the street. There is no way they would go to the trouble of extradition if you are paying something.

   7. Dominican Republic is fairly straightforward to achieve second citizenship.

      1. I followed dr1.com (a DR expat and travel blog) for a long time. Other than marrying a local I saw no discussion on how to obtain a second citizenship there. If you have a line on the process please inform the group. I for one would be very interested.

         1. I suspect the company I saw offering it might be fraudulent. See Mark Nestmann’s website for details on other places to go.

   8. Fwiw: bankruptcy might actually be another argument for leaving. American students loans are generally not dischargable in th U.S., but the ARE dischargable under the laws of other countries.

9. I got an accountancy degree but hated working in an accounting firm ironically when I started in one. I left and became a real estate broker instead. I make more money and can work my own time and schedules although it is tough to run around conducting various appointments and obtaining listings. It still a lot better than working in some dreadful accounting firm staring at excel sheets all day long.

10. Good article and very true. I ended up getting my undergrad cheap (BS in Economics for about $25k as an adult while working FT still) and then my MBA from a top 10 school on the weekend (work paid for it all) so my ROI has been very high from school but the vast majority of people are coming out with 50-100k in debt and only making 30-60k out of college. If you do decide to go the MBA route, my suggestion is to only do so under 2 circumstances 1) You are fairly good at office politics and culture and 2) Go to a top 20 school.
    A trade will pay well right off the bat and no expensive college and time off of work It’s also fairly easy to go into business for yourself once you get a few years experience and connections (that’s what my father did). Most trades are also decent exercise as well compared to sitting at a corp desk all day.

11. It boggles the mind why anyone would pay that much money to get a degree in something like Philosophy or English………not that the humanities aren’t interesting or respectable but when there is that much money involved you’d think they’d at least give some thought to what they would do to repay their tuition fees.
    I live in a country where the state University is free (or at least paid out of the >35% income tax we pay) simply because wages are very low and we don’t have a low-cost of living to compensate for this, so no one would be able to afford college otherwise, and I still wouldn’t spend 3-4 years of my life studying something unlikely to land me anything other than the same shitty office job I’d have gotten had I stopped my education at 18, even though Philosophy is certainly a very interesting area of study.

    1. It boggles my mind why anyone would pay a 100k for *any* degree, even if it’s engineering or mathematics.

12. Good article with good recommendations.
    The one thing in business school that is guaranteed success is completing a major that no one else wants to do. Everyone in business school is there for an easy ride, and they want to stay as far away from numbers as possible. Therefore, if you graduate in accounting, finance, or optimization (logistics, inventory, supply chain, etc) then you are much better off than anyone on campus besides the electrical, civil, mechanical, and aerospace engineers. Sure, you will work in an office for a while, but just do that until you can truly find out what you want to do. I’m currently using my income made in logistics to fund my passion of audio production. Ideally I will make that my only gig in the near future.

13. Glad I’m not in this boat for once

14. Great advice here and I’m looking forward to reading your book. I’ve been adopting a more minimalist lifestyle and it is very freeing. It also helps you thin the herd of “friends” that care about this crap way too much. No surprise, many women will scoff because you won’t pick them up in a land rover to go out for wine at a 200% markup. This is another benefit as these bloodsuckers would drain you dry. I keep my cars for 10 years or longer and live in a modest home. Frees me up to travel and experience the world.

15. The problem is not your education, the problem is you.

16. I used to be embarrassed that my degree came from a cheap, unknown state school. Today I’m proud of it. I paid less for college than most people pay for cars.

    1. That is one route to avoid school debt and still get a degree in a marketable field like accounting or engineering. I received a full scholarship for graduate school (two year program in applied economics) from a lower ranked school and made back the total cost from the books and fees (my only out of pocket expense) from my first pay check. Studying a subject like computer networking or programming at community college is also a potential path to a high paying job at a low tuition cost.

17. Solid article, man. Thanks for posting.

18. Why pick on the humanities degrees? As far as I’m concerned all degrees are useless until proven otherwise such as I.T., business, engineering, etc.

    1. Bullshit. Get a degree from Stanford and you’re made.
       This whole article is written by someone who had a shit degree from a shit college and is now unemployed. Just get a good degree from a good college. Complete it. Simple.

       1. The degree from Stanford (or Harvard or Yale) is valuable only because of the name on the diploma. Basically you are paying $200K for a networking pass. For places like Stanford, Harvard or Yale it might be worth it if you know how to network. But let’s not pretend it is the value of the “education”.

          1. Bingo. And I wonder how that networking value will develop in the next couple of decades.

       2. Actually moron, this guy worked in banking for a very long time and is a successful author who gets advertised on Tom Leykis and generates revenue worth thousands of dollars a month, just from writing.
          Who are you to judge him? Also, the fact that idiots like yourself need to go to college to be successful, proves one thing- you do not have or possess the entrepreneurial flair to be a success. You need to rely on employers to hire you.
          Sure, the big school name provides the best value in terms of networking and getting your foot in the door, since this happens most of the time, but does not necessarily mean you are the sharpest tool in the box- George Bush graduated from both Harvard and Yale.
          Also, what evidence do you have that proves that graduating from a top tier school guarantees you’re made? One Goldman Sachs millionaire trader has even stated that there is now a a structural decline in the banking industry with thousands of investment bankers and hedge fund workers getting the boot. (Yes that includes big ivy league graduates as well.) Check out Barclays and the slow demise of the other city banks.
          I also personally know of one Cambridge graduate who got his degree in Physics (one of the toughest degrees from the one of the best universities in the world)- couldn’t find a job and left the country to be a teacher.
          So don’t judge Aaron who wrote this article with the best intents of waking up the majority of people.

19. Look, I retired in my 30’s. Here’s what you need to know.
    1. a degree, even a STEM degree is worthless. What you need to learn, whether in kindergarten or graduate school is how to TEACH YOURSELF. The fancy term is to become autodidactic. We live in a day and age where the universe of information is just a few link clicks away, if you’re determined to find it. You can’t plug into a matrix-style jack and download the knowledge, but if you can read and comprehend, you can teach yourself anything for science, to medicine and law. I’ve done that very thing (but that’s not where I made my money).
    2. Knowledge, especially that obtained through formal education, in and of itself IS USELESS. It’s only the individual’s ability to use his skills to PRODUCE SOMETHING OF VALUE. It’s the key to success in life. Theories and million-dollar ideas are nice, but it they don’t produce anything tangible for others to use and receive value from, it’s just an academic exercise and the fodder of university research professors. Uh, yeah, Cold Fusion — great theory, but if you can’t make it work, then what’s the point. Consequently, the value of a degree- any degree is not determined by the major, but by what you can do to produce something of value.
    3. Reevaluate what’s really valuable. What’s more valuable than Facebook? TOILET PAPER. Which could you, or would you really need if stranded on a deserted island? I make my money providing things people really need — housing to be specific. People need my rentals to live in, but not necessarily my latest eBook for sale on Amazon.
    4. You really don’t need much to live a comfortable life, and even a grand lifestyle. If you’re really sold on the need to make millions to be “financially independent,” then by all means earn a million dollars just to prove you can do it. Today, a young man can get by on $15,000 – $18,000 a year relatively comfortably if he stays out of debt. I know because that’s where my 18 year old is at right now. But keep in mind that today’s millions dollars was just $100,000 a five decades ago. And a couple of decades from now $5 million will be the new million dollars. There is no financial independence in a bankster controlled financial market. The only financial independence is to be independent of the financial system created to keep you working all of your life for the man, a slave to his game. If you can teach yourself to produce the things you need and want (difficult, but possible), then you’re free of the system that demands you work, produce income, and then steal that income through taxation and inflation. In all the metaphors for a modern day Matrix, forced taxation is the strongest method of control on the planet.
    5. The best education you can give yourself is to learn to produce passive investment income in current dollars. You’ll always have to produce income because that’s the only way to stay ahead of the banksters and the defit-spending guberment slaves. You do this best by owning real assets that generate income in current dollars. If you want to play the markets and think stocks, bonds, commodities, derivatives and the like are going to do this for you, then I wish you good luck. Like I said before, I chose real estate because there is always a need for my product. And, my homes rent today at 10x – 11x what they rented for back when $100K was worth what it takes $1 M to buy today. Rents inflate as does the the price of everything else.
    6. Finally, listen to advice of old successful farts like me. But then don’t! I mean go out and prove to yourself what works and what does’t. I’m pretty confident my thinking and advice are spot-on, and I have the resume of accomplishments to prove it. But, I made mistakes along the way as everyone does. As long as you rely on your own ability to teach yourself, especially from your own mistakes and failures (even if that’s a poor choice of college degree), then there’s no situation that will permanently disable you from success.

    1. Actually, there are tons of alternatives to oil, gas, and fossil fuels. Cold Fusion is just one of them. Here’s a short list of clean energy alternatives:
       -AMBIENT HEAT
       -CENTRIFUGAL FORCE
       -GEOTHERMAL
       -HEAT PUMPS
       -HYDROGEN
       -IMPLOSION
       -MAGNETISM
       -OCEANS
       -RADIANT ENERGY
       -SAFE NUCLEAR
       -SOLAR
       -WIND
       Here’s a few inspiring quotes:
       “If these new energy technologies were to be set free world-wide, the change would be profound; it would effect everybody: it would be applicable everywhere. These technologies are absolutely the most important thing that has happened in the history of the world.”
       – Brian O’Leary, Physics Professor, NASA Astronaut
       “Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by power obtainable at any point in the universe. It is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature.”
       – Nikola Tesla, Inventor Alternating Current Motor
       “We would have universal abundance.”
       – Adam Trombly, New Energy Inventor

    2. On point advice

    3. Great read, sounds like solid advice.
       I especially like the (although not new) first point and how you put things in perspective in the last.

       1. Thanks. Makes me chuckle because 13 years of public education and a couple years of college didn’t help me to write for shit, despite all the mandates for English and composition.
          It’s just illustrates that writing is another one of those skills you teach yourself when either: a. you want to or, b. you need to. I learned to write when authoring, publishing and promoting my first book.
          If anyone is at a loss as to what to teach himself, start a grand project and it will become clear soon enough. And for me, going to college in the 80’s for a STEM degree (Electrical Engineering) despite a free-ride and guaranteed career thanks to Ronald Regan’s Star War hard-on was not enough reason to stay in school where 70% of the crap I was learning I wouldn’t use, and the other 30% I could learn from reading books and building things — which is what I did.
          Fortunately, I had a affinity for programming these computer things in the late 70’s and made a very lucrative career out of it before I retired. I did everything from software engineering, to network engineering to management and consulting — all self-taught.

       2. I thought I did.
          Rental real estate. It’s real, it generates cash flow as people get paid. It’s also one of the top 3 asset classes for it’s tax treatment..
          Now, you don’t have to buy your first rental house when you’re 19 like I did. What worked 40 years ago doesn’t work today. I teach people what does work, but I don’t do it for free anymore. Did that at one time for people. Funny thing is that no one appreciates what’s freely given. But they’ll worship “knowledge” they paid money for, even if it’s utter bull spit (e.g. college degree)

          1. But, I’m going into the toilet paper business. It’s more cash flow and more profitable.

    4. “learn to produce passive investment income in current dollars”
       Can you elaborate on this and give some more examples please?

       1. Aside from the rent angle (I’m starting that myself), another example would be a parking lot. Very little time investment on your part other than collecting the cash. Automated machines like redbox machines is another example or vending machines, though I’d be weary of the vending machine option.
          Stuff like that.

    5. Facebook is great for wiping your ass on. What are you talking about?

    6. Actually, I have to disagree with you on the real estate concept.
       Real estate provides NO GUARANTEE of stability in life. I know what I am talking about because I myself own real estate. The reality is in order to be successful in real estate, you need to find legitimate tenants.
       With the shape of the economy (the depression we are in) more people are losing their jobs thanks to Wall Street and the politicians. Also factor in the number of jobs that are being replaced by technology on a rapid scale, and also the rise in inflation and the endless printing of money, and you can see we are heading towards a financial and social collapse.
       More tenants are finding it difficult to make ends meet and cannot afford to pay rent. Also, with the number of scumbag tenants who are on government social security, do not pay the landlord the money and eventually owes arrears, which cannot recovered thanks to the expensive and twisted legal system. And if you do not have tenants and own vacant properties, then the government will charge you the landlord, to pay further tax.
       The landlord is getting screwed big time by the government thanks to all the insane tax laws they are bringing in such as property tax, mansion tax, council tax (in the UK), capital gain tax etc. More people are now getting out of the real estate business as this area that once proved to be fruitful, no longer is the case.
       You may be an exception, but please don’t exaggerate about the real estate market. Look at all the empty buildings and properties in Florida and parts of California, and you will see that the real estate market is an unstable and risky area to invest in.

       1. Uh, I said toilet paper was a better option than real estate. It IS stable.

20. I might get back into retail, only new/used/consignment this time. I miss selling people shit.

21. I have one of those “worthless” liberal arts degrees (Poli Sci). However, I am 29 years old and making over 100k/year working for an oil and gas company. I make more money than my friends and colleagues with “real” degrees like engineering, finance, accounting. While I agree that generally you are more likely to succeed not getting a liberal arts degree. It also depends on the person and how hard they are willing to work, and play office politics etc. Also, a major factor is industry and location. If you want to make money, oil and gas and tech are the two hottest markets right now. Houston and San Fran are the capitals of oil and gas/tech. Many unemployed liberal arts majors that like to complain about how theres no jobs for them, yet live in smaller cities with no major industries. If you want to make money and be gainfully employed, move to a major city with lots of jobs (Houston, San Fran, Chicago, Dallas), it will not matter what degree you have.

    1. When you want to surprise anyone with your story you will have claim also that you PoliSci degree is the reason *why* you make that amount of money – rather than that you just happen to have one.
       If that’s what you claim, then you’ve got my attention.

       1. His story is a bullshit exception.
          I’m graduating next year with a petroleum engineering degree and all of the guys in oil and gas making six figs have a trade or are engineers.
          What skill does this dude have to justify 100k? Connections. Or perhaps he’s an awesome PR guy.

    2. What exactly do you do? I work in the industry, and I don’t know anyone who is not a skilled tradie or engineer who makes that kind of money.
       If what you are saying is true some JD who has a useless law degree could likewise take one of these jobs and pay off their debt.
       I’m skeptical.

22. The funny thing is that campus leftists try to justify the humanities by saying it teaches critical thinking.
    It is precisely the opposite. The humanities are filled with idealistic hippy types who base their beliefs solely on what sounds nice or “fair”. Have you ever tried applying critical thinking to the values they hold dear? Go up to one, and tell him equality isn’t that great. They retreat immediately into a shell of moral outrage and start playing victim.
    The stereotypical STEM nerd might not be the most sociable, but at least they’re taught to factor truth and logic before ideology, and change his outlook accordingly even if he remains stubborn on the outside.

23. I am a doctor and I consider both my degree and my career worthless.
    Everything is relevant.

    1. If all my colleagues were females, I’d consider my field of study worthless too.

    2. Why would you say that being a doctor?
       If the world went to Zombie Apocalypse I’d fight to keep you around. Fundamental knowledge right there.

    3. Doctor of what?

       1. Gynocologist?
          (study of cunts)

24. Regarding the minimalist lifestyle and having a useless degree, I would strongly suggest new grads to look at teaching English in Japan and South Korea. I almost did this a few years ago. Most companies pay for your room and transportation (train and subway ticket) for the whole year of your contract. The pay was roughly $35,000. I know that isn’t a lot of money but with free room, that could be worth it. Plus, you’ll be outside of America and get to travel in that area. Hopefully that’ll help someone. Oh, and there’s gubment jobs because they don’t care what your degree is for most of the jobs they post online.

    1. Sounds like fun! Thanks for the suggestion.

    2. I wanted to do the teaching abroad in Asia thing too, but I am Black so I didn’t get in. All of you guys complaining about affirmative action can indeed cash in that whiteness in Asia. I might get a shitty job here in the states but where is the new hot girl every night?

25. This is bad advice. Whether a degree of good or bad depends on where you get it from. A liberal arts degree from Nowhere College is just debt. A liberal arts degree from Harvard or Yale is an open door into media or the state department etc. If everybody does trades there will just be a bubble, like there is right now in other areas. Just don’t go into debt for Shitsville College and you’ll be OK.

    1. Strong disagreement here.
       There are two distinct careers prospects you point to, media and the bureaucracy.
       With media, I doubt that liberal arts degrees *ever* got you anywhere, but even if I’m mistaken about that, look at where media goes these days: the networks’ importance are eroding fast, every guy with a good shtick can make a show himself on YouTube. All in all, you get less centralization, less middle men, and less liberalism.
       Where do you see the value of a liberal arts degree in all of this?
       Similar tendencies you see with politics and the bureaucracy: Today becoming one of the infamous establishment leeches will certainly feed you, but I doubt it’s easy to become one (much will depend on luck and how willing you are to suck up to people you despise), and it’s also a risky gamble: If the libertarian wet dreams of hyperinflation and the like come true, many strongholds of bureaucracy will run dry. Do you really want to bet on being fat but useless the next 20 years only to find that with 60 years your government can’t pay you in bitcoin?
       The general advice is, regardless of in or outside the government: Make yourself *useful*. Then even if you find yourself in a sinking ship, you might be able to swim to one with a better crew.

26. well I did this same mistake…so now I will become a nurse…good field with travel opportunities.
    All of rooshv forum advocates it.

    1. It’s not manly… A man becomes a doctor or dentist. Nurses are for girls.

    2. Forget nursing. It blows. The vast majority of ill-informed people trying to become nurses right now will fail or burn out hard shortly after employment. Nursing sounds attractive because of the high salary and relatively short and inexpensive (although very difficult and demanding) training. But the reality of working as a nurse is not so great. Working in a hospital can be quite repulsive to the average person not familiar with this type of work environment. I know this from first hand experience because I wasted almost 3 years at community college taking pre-nursing courses and volunteering in hospitals, only to realize that nursing sucks and isn’t worth the money. The work is hard and the environment is stale and strangely immasculating. It definitely wasn’t my cup of tea. Your experience may vary though.
       Volunteer at a hospital first to see if you like nursing and the hospital environment. Maybe you will, but chances are you won’t. Nursing encompasses so many different fields, so you may find a great nursing angle you like. Met a few guys with kooshy positions in cardiac rehab easliy making $100K plus annual salaries, but they had Masters degrees.
       If you’ve never worked in a hospital, or are just experimenting with nursing but have no previous interest in it beyond what people have told you in passing, I would say skip it. That’s my unsolicited advice, for whatever it’s worth. I know you didn’t ask for it, but there it is. Just want to save you some time and energy.
       Nursing does not make you feel manly, and the female nurses I met (even the hot ones) tended to be on the bitter and unhappy side. I’m pretty sure it was their job that was the cause of their discontent.

       1. Out of curiosity , what is unmanly about nursing ?
          I agree with you, women who do nursing are a depressed bunch…still wonder how they have sex all over the place.
          I am a warehouse laborer…that is far worst than being a nurse…dust, crazy workers, back problems even with correct lifting technique.
          Sure it is a masculine environment…but not one where you can expect to have a long lifespan.
          And personal training does not pay as well especially if you work in small gyms.
          I’m moving to Australia. Currently doing volunteering work in a hospital. Doing degree in Australia.
          When I did volunteer work , the two things I had to bare was cleaning a fat old landwhale lady + the smell of poop(she was shitting all over the place). I could deal with phlegm, blood, vomit.
          Not doing this for pay, but more job security + travel…stable job when you travel is useful.
          Plus if you are a nurse, do you have access to pussy from dieticians and physio women.?

          1. The environment felt very stuffy and politically correct. Nursing in itself is not un-masculine per se; there were actually many male nurses prior to WW1. But in the modern hospital environment, it felt very unnatural to me. Don’t get me wrong; hospitals need male nurses to do certain tasks. Heavy lifting for example. I just knew that it was an environment that I couldn’t last long in. You’re going from warehouse worker, to hospital worker. It may be a tough transition that won’t take in the long run.
             I’m not trying to tear down your dream here. But as someone who went pretty far in the process of becoming a nurse, I realized it wasn’t what it was cracked up to be. I was doing it for the wrong reasons. I thought just like you do about it: Good money, high demand for the skills, many international travel opportunities, vast majority of the workers in the field are women ( many pussy slaying opportunities), etc.
             Nursing is a calling, not simply a job. Your whole identity will be based on being a hospital worker. Hospitals are an extremely depressing place, and that will wear on you heavily, I promise that. Like you touched upon, many nurses are very depressed people because they have to drag themselves into that hospital day in and day out. To me, the depression is not worth $80K a year. There are other ways for men to make that kind of money doing things they would likely enjoy more, with similar amounts of training.
             I’m not sure how old you are, but I suspect you are young. (under 30). There is a lot to be said abut doing something you enjoy, or can at least learn to live with. True misery in life comes for many by taking on a job they hate just for the money and perks. Do you want to be in a hospital 12 hours and day, 4-5 times a week? Such an environment has the ability to quickly destroy your soul and cause you to burn out.
             I’m not trying to project my shit on you, or convince you that you are wrong or something, because you are not wrong. You could very well be great nursing material and develop a highly successful career in the field. I personally just found the career to be repulsive and soul-sucking.
             But you never know until you try. That’s the advice a very dear friend gave to me prior to trying out nursing. I tried it, failed, then moved on. Your experiences may be different than mine. I hope they are. But just from one red-pill guy to another, I would suggest thinking long and hard about this massive life decision.

          2. I am very appreciative of advice…so hard to get a red pill opinions as details as your one.
             Been researching for 8 months. not just jumping into this…and I cannot be in a dead end job with no advancement…need cash so I can move to pussy paradise. I felt like I have wasted my life.
             I have looked into many options apart from nursing, but just incase, If you have other options I can consider , please do list them out. I completely agree with you when you say to think carefully about career.
             the other reason I am doing nursing is because, in my current situation, I have no other career path that is a guaranteed job and I am 26, I need to get a move on and have atleast something in hand….also nursing has great travel opportunities and a lot of fields where I can branch out in. I’m considering being a flight nurse so I can travel all places.
             I won’t lie and say I want bang opportunities because of the high amount of women…if I’m going to have a job, it better be a social one that can create a mindset of abundance.
             My volunteer job consists about going around and talking to patients and hearing about their life and preventing falls of weak patients. they are depressing, but I seem to be able to shut it out or say things like ” well that is very sad” .
             I don’t know if shutting out the sadness or feigning sympathy is a good or bad thing for nursing.

27. When I went to school my dad told me, I’ll only support you financially if you commit to studying something of value.

28. what about the humanities degrees that lead to becoming a teacher?

29. I live in Boston, probably the highest number of schools in a single city on the planet, among the best educational institutions in the world, yet a ton of these kids get stupid degrees like English. Philosophy, Art History, and worst of all Women’s Studies, disgusting. As if it were not bad enough that they waste their valuable time on things that should be hobbies at best they accrue stupid amounts of student debt, the same as if someone were to buy a house, and for it they have no career path besides being a barista at Starbucks.

30. I don’t normally comment on blog sites, but I’ve been an avid fan of ROK for quite awhile and this article hits the nail on the head about higher education. They indoctrinate kids literally from the time they can walk that without a college education they’re worthless. And it’s a complete lie.
    While I have a BS in Business Law and a 9-5 job, I look to role models like my father and think that somehow, I was defrauded for almost 20 years. He dropped out of HS in the 10th grade, joined the Navy to avoid prison (back when one could still lie about their age at 17 and sneak in without the parental ok), and did 24 years working with aviation weapons systems. He retired with a GED, an E-7 pay grade, 4 technical certifications, and now works a 9-5 job as a site supervisor for an electronics installation company primarily because at 59, he isn’t ready to sit around and be “retired” yet.
    I feel completely lied to. My plan now is to pay off my student loans ASAP, save my money, and fall off the face of the earth and watch the USA continue to implode on itself.

31. I’ve actually adopted the Dave Ramsey “7 baby steps.” Living on rice and beans (or in my case, military chow hall), and cutting my expenses to the bare minimums really helped me grind away 25k of debt in a little under 2 years. It DOES suck when you just get paid, and after everything, you’ve only got $1000 in the bank, but I made the “sacrifices now so that you can live a better tomorrow.”

    1. Great job man. Stick with it. I’m doing his plan and will be debt free in roughly 17 months.

32. Excellent post. This topic can’t be hammered enough.

33. Great article! This is exactly in the position I found myself after school, and like the authored suggested, I got into computer networking and now make over $80,000 a year–a very liveable wage for a single guy.
    But whatever you do, you have to do the fucking work. Computer networking isn’t the least bit easy. There is a low barrier to entry, but to earn the big bucks you need to keep pressing your skillset. Start out with your CCNA, then CCNP, then work on other tracks before you head over to CCIE territory.

34. College, like getting married — is for suckers.

35. Why cappy, you’re so nice and loving when you’re posting on ROK instead of on your blog/videos, haha.

    1. He posts videos under “Asshole Consulting”. He does have to maintain his image there.

36. How is becoming an investment banker not realistic? Plenty of my classmates became i-bankers at bulge bracket firms straight out of school.

    1. I have a few friends who majored in Finance and Economics, and generally speaking, their job sucks.
       You don’t get into i-banking unless you went to a top 20 undergrad or top 5 mba program.

    2. Because the reality is there are WAY TOO MANY candidates wanting to be investment bankers, and not enough supply of jobs available.
       Investment banks only hire candidates from top 10 tier schools such as Harvard, Cambridge, MIT and Stanford, or if you came from a top private high school and went straight into a school leaver’s program scheme, ran by the banks for top school kids.
       I know one guy who works in Morgan Stanley in New York City. The guy is a genius and from a rich background who went to Berkeley.

37. LOL, https://twitter.com/Reasons2DropOut

38. You are not a “slave” to an employer who pays you.

    1. Cotton pickers on plantations were also ‘paid’ by their employers. Doesn’t made them any less a slave though.

       1. Slavery is an involuntary status. Nobody is forcing you to work for any employer, excepting if you’re a prisoner. That’s the difference, not the “paid” part.

       2. As GostOfJefferson said.
          Why is this even a debate? Why do people have a problem with something so utterly trivial?

          1. It’s the interwebs, where the word “is” can be hotly debated by a hundred people at once, in a way that would make Bill Clinton blush in shame.

          2. I really wish it would be over something less obvious.
             What morals can you expect from people who can’t tell the difference between forced labor and a back ache? It’s fucking scary.

          3. It’s scary how people display a certain sensitivity by other people expressing an opinion. As someone with a scientific background, you should know that debating over the obvious can actually be quite fruitful.

          4. Sometimes, but not always. Sometimes internet debates devolve into exercises of autism. Slavery, for example, always includes an involuntary component. The notion of being paid or not being paid is a non-sequitur as it is not integral to the definition of slavery, so debating it is rather pointless.
             It’s akin to debating the use of the letter “C” for the speed of light. Everybody already accepts C as “speed of light” so harping on the virtues of using the letter “Y” is pointless.

          5. I think it’s more subtle.
             1. People have shitty jobs.
             2. Slavery is considered much more evil than shitty jobs.
             Ergo, people like to think they are slaves, rather than just people with shitty jobs.

       3. They were also kidnapped and returned to said plantation if they ever left. Would your boss kidnap you if you switched to a different one?

          1. Yes.

39. Richard Martinez Anderson Cooper CNN – Reverse speech reveals Boston marathon reference
    
    Richard Martinez Rails Against NRA CNN Reverse speech –
    
    Reverse speech analysis of Elliot Rodger’s ‘Retribution’ Video
    
    Richard Martinez CNN interview Reverse speech –
    
    Reverse speech on Elliot Rodger video manifesto
    

    1. Did you catch the speech (the first one) where he gives a high-5 off stage then breaks down once he realizes the camera’s still on him? High comedy.

       1. Nope, do you have the link for that video?

40. “Regardless of how extreme you take minimalism, do not be an idiot and buy new cars, fancy clothes, $14 martini’s and all the other bullshit media and marketers try to force down your throat. They are merely selling you chains.”
    Best advice ever. Every time I think of buying things now, this image comes to mind. Spending money really amounts to less power for me, and more power for them.

41. Good article, especially the points on profitable skills. I would however, characterize living costs as expenses rather than “debt” which is entirely a different concept.

42. Hey, worthless degrees student, did that White privilege get you a job? It didn´t? What a surprise.
    Did it at least get you unemployement benefices? Not that either? That´s a crying shame.

43. Great article. When I graduated college in 2007 I really had a similar story. It hit me like a ton of bricks and it was scary as hell. I even found myself depressed at times and had many panic attacks at night. I was not sheltered at in my life but I simply was not prepared. The important thing is that I dug down deep from the dark place that I was in and told myself that I absolutely couldn’t fail. I had no fall back or
    rich parents. I came up with a plan and literally just went all out. It took a
    few years of hoping from job to job, teaching myself everything in my spare
    time, some social sacrifice and taking many certification exams, but I followed
    a career in IT. When I got my first
    decent promotion, I bought a few things for myself but mostly used the money to
    pay off my school loans. It is now 5 years later and I am a Systems Admin for a
    200 person company, make 75k, have flexible hours, have no debt, own a house, pursue
    my hobby/passion of racing cars/wrenching, have a great boss who gives me a ton
    of freedom and I enjoy my life. I worked my ass off to do this, no hands out
    for me.
    I’ve been feeling compelled to share some of my own concepts
    in an article regarding finances and financial freedom… maybe one day soon. I
    am a fairly OCD person so I’ve really taken my lifestyle to a high degree of
    frugalness yet no one can tell from the outside. That should tell you something
    about all the shit that people think they need. America is particularly full of
    sheep and brainwashed people who think material=happy. People don’t question things
    and think for themselves, they just follow what they see. You have to break
    away from the crowd, once you cross over it’s just sickening the way people
    waste their hard earned money and practically give away their financial freedom.
    Minimalism = freedom = happiness. The more you live it, the better you feel and
    more you enjoy the lifestyle.

44. Fantastic article, got it linked on our forum

45. This is excellent advice. Capital is much more worthwhile than labor in this economy (no matter how much we invest in education), and I certainly should have just focused on that. I wish I knew this when I was 18, but we can all move forward day by day. There’s something to be said about admitting your failures and becoming a better man as a result.

46. just a thought..if things were in irrevocable crummy trust giving a party a life interest and self employed to where almost no income…adjustment to student loans based on income and after fifteen years forgiven except for the interest on the debt waived. yeah…why run?? America is not a third world country.

47. Start out going to a 2-year school. It’s way less expensive, you can get some core credits and learn some good skills. From there, if you get your foot in the door somewhere, school can stop. OR you can continue your schooling for a 4-year degree later. With this strategy, you’ve got options WHILE you discover what you want to do for a career.
    I took the community college route and I’m in my 6th year of owning a software company. There’s no fucking way I could go back to rotting in a cubicle while making some other guy rich. Life is good.

48. Solid. I would recommend that every man read “the 50th law.” by robert greene.
    it is about cultivating the entrepreneur mindset, seeing how the business world really works, minus economics, law and all the systems placed upon the fundamental laws of human nature.
    whether you work in a job, or dont, every experience is a learning opportunity when you have a larger goal. college is a default, it was for me, when you have no idea what you want to learn and do.
    the truth is it doesn’t matter where you learn. it could be mcdonalds. if i worked there i would take the opportunity to see how a massively successful corporation functions. its hiring practices, its management practices, the leadership’s mindset, where the food comes from, who brings it, when they bring it, how the menu changes according to customer needs and wants, how corporate keeps in touch with the day to day shifts in customers, etc. it doesn’t matter what you do, everything is a learning opportunity when you start to see yourself as an apprentice, and eventually owner, of your life.

49. You guys are exaggerating. The job prospects for a self-taught or CS degree programmer are pretty good, at least here in Atlanta. I swear sometimes you guys sound like we should be preparing for a zombie apocalypse.

50. very good post-people should revolt the system fucked them-college is bull shit.

51. Aaron Clarey (the author of this site)
    IT’S NOT THE JEWS!!!
    
    I think your education is a little lacking there sir. How the hell can you know so much but yet know so little?
    Here’s a a lesson on money you might find educational, Captain Capitalism 🙂 Lolz.

    LithuaniaFlag

    1. (author of the article, not the site)

       1. Haha can’t delete comments here like on your youtube channel huh?

52. You guys could do what other generations did: revolt.

53. So captain, do you actually have any degrees, or is this your impression from outside the bubble, as it were?

54. There is some crazy comments here but I think the article is a good one as far as ideas go.

55. While I always enjoy your writing, you are missing one point entirely. Degrees are as good as job opportunities. Yes we have to many lawyers but if you love the law and your dad owns an office, why not? You like engineering oder medicine – get a degree but try to minimize costs. Even the often frowned upon English degree can have its uses you have a binding job offer and they want that degree first.
    But in the end you are right. If you do not know what to choose, choose something that sustains yourself – a trade. Studying can be pursed even after your party years.

    1. The writer is spot on. This is exactly how it is. And it sucks. I’m definitely need to master step one, forgiving myself. I feel like I’ve ruined my life. I can’t afford a place to life and I can barely afford food and clothing. So, no. all degrees are not created equal and kids should be warned there are many degrees out there that aren’t worth jack.

56. This is a great article! Thank you!

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