The American Dream Is Every Man’s Nightmare

The American dream. A house in the suburbs, two children, two cars, and maybe a family dog. It’s the image that’s been seared into the American consciousness via countless television shows: Happy Days, Leave it to Beaver, etc. The desire continues to run strong in the American landscape. Anybody who has married friends can attest to this. Eventually, it’s out of the bachelor pad and into a suburban home with a manicured lawn. That’s where you’ll raise your future family and continue the tradition that was born in the aftermath of World War 2, when a swarm of GIs returned stateside.

Over the years, I’ve noticed that this dream is not important to American men. Most guys are content to get the most bang for their buck, whether that means living in an apartment complex, renting a room from a friend, or buying a cheap piece of land in the country. In over forty years, I never met a man that actually dreamed of owning a home in the suburbs.

This desire—to own a suburban home—is a female one. In short, it’s her American dream. While there are some exceptions to this rule (like 1%), this is by and large the case. American women dream of a future life in an affluent suburb. This raises some questions that all American men, particularly younger ones, should consider.

How will you pay for HER American dream? Can you really afford it?


If you do a cursory review of the numbers, you’ll see the Mount Everest you’re being asked to climb. And you don’t need a PHD in Mathematics to figure out that it’s too expensive to pay for a woman’s “American Dream.”

Disagree with me? Well, let’s break down the numbers then…

1.. The cost of an average American home is $337,300; this requires a down payment of $67,460, and a $1400/month mortgage payment for the next 30 years.

In January of 2014, the average cost of a home in the US was sitting at a hefty $337,300.

So how will you afford this?

Well, first comes the down payment. As many homeowners know, it’s recommended to put 20% down on a property. Anything lower than this comes with a slew of added costs and stipulations (such as PMI payments, limitations to the amount you can borrow, etc.). So 20% is the prudent move.   

Well, 20% of $337,300 is a whopping $67,460. I repeat, $67, 460!


Do you have $67,460 in your savings account? Does she have that money?

Most Americans don’t—not even close. In actuality, most young American men and women are entering their mid-twenties swamped with college loan debt. They’ve been scraping by for the last four to six years. They’ve been eating Top Ramen and soda crackers. They don’t have $70,000 just lying around the house. If anything, they have $70,000 of debt—each.

But American wife doesn’t care. She must have HER dream, regardless of the damage it produces.

So she’ll look to borrow the down payment money from a family member—or, she’ll pressure you to borrow it from your family. This is quite common. However, this trend is on the decline. A weakened economy is reducing the wealth of the average American, and fewer older parents have $70,000 to part with.

But let’s just say, for the sake of argument, that you manage to get the $67,460 down payment. You secure a generous gift from Uncle Joe, who has dementia and two months left to live.

You put $67,460 down on a house worth $337,300—the loan with be roughly $269,840 when you get the keys to move in. Now, the current interest rate on a thirty year fixed income is 4.3%. If you go to, you can calculate the following numbers yourself. You’ll find that a 30 year mortgage at 4.3%, on a total payment of $269, 840, comes out to $1,367.24 a month. Roughly $1400 a month.

It’s more than you want to spend. But you drink a beer, she sucks your dick, and all is forgotten for the moment. But now comes stage two….

2. The house needs to be remodeled and a new car needs to be purchased. You’re now paying roughly $2,000/month

Do you think your old couch from college, the one you’re perfectly fine with, will suffice? You silly child. The entire inside of the house needs to be remodeled (even though fewer friends seem to visit you these days). The list here can get quite long: sofas, flat screen televisions, dining room tables, hardwood floors, new beds, kitchen remodeling, retiling of the bathroom, backyard pool and accompanying jacuzzi, garden landscaping, etc.

What’s the cost for all this? Well, there’s not an official number, but let’s just say it’s pricey. Many couples take out a second mortgage to pay for it. Others will put the tab on the credit card. I personally know of one couple who spent $150,000 to remodel their house.  We can say, conservatively, that the new modifications for the home will cost an extra $300 a month.

Also, a new car (or cars) needs to be purchased. She can’t be seen in a subpar vehicle. You wouldn’t want her to endure that, would you?  So you pay $10,000 more than you normally would to please her escalating ego. Purchasing a quality vehicle, of course, comes with a hefty monthly payment. Let’s be conservative and say another $300 a month, on top of the second mortgage you took out for the remodeling.

So remember that $1,400 a month you were paying? Well, with the remodeling costs, along with the new vehicle, add another $600 a month to the bill.

You’re now paying $2,000 a month.


You’re growing more uncomfortable with this. It’s more than you wanted to spend. You notice that you’ve recently developed acid reflux. Also, clumps of your hair have been collecting in the shower drain. And you’re starting to drink earlier in the day.  But here comes stage three. She tells you she’s pregnant.

3. Having two children will cost another $2,000 a month; you’re now paying $4,000 a month

She wants to have two children—a boy and a girl. However, now that your finances are imploding before your eyes, you’re having second thoughts.

How much is this going to cost, anyway?


A recent article by, entitled “The Cost of Raising a Baby” breaks the news to us: “the average middle-income family will spend roughly $12,000 on child-related expenses in their baby’s first year of life. By age two, parents are up to more than $12,500 per year.” This cost does not diminish, but stays pretty consistent. chips in with, “it costs almost $200,000 US Dollars (USD) to raise a child from birth to age 18.” $12,000 a year comes out to an extra $1,000 a month. So, if you have two children, that’s an extra $2,000 to add to the mix. 

That’s $4,000 a month to buy HER American dream: a suburban home, remodeling, new transportation, and two children. I repeat, $4,000 a month!


At this point, you’re contemplating divorce, suicide, or murder. She calls you off the ledge by assuring you, “We can do this together!” You live another day. Your mantra becomes that of Boxer the horse, in Orwell’s Animal Farm—“I will work harder.”

4. ***Spoiler Alert!

How much do you need to make to pay for all this? Well, more than $75,000 a year. The website,, states this point blank in their article, “You Cannot Afford a $350,000 Home with a $75,000 Household Income!

And there’s the rub. You see, the average American household, I repeat, household, only makes $50, 502 a year. So, if you’re an average American family, you’re still $25,000 short, at a minimum, from owning a piece of the American dream. HER American dream.


Financially, the “American Dream” is a man’s nightmare. It’s far too expensive. So it’s best to circumvent the whole thing by not even dating an American woman with the intention of marriage.

Remember that bad financial decisions affect the trajectory of your life. Money provides opportunities: to travel, to invest, and more importantly, to fund YOUR dreams. If you squander all your income on a suburban house, your dreams will be like that song from Kansas—“Dust in the Wind.”

Please forward this article to all the young men you know. Lord knows, they won’t hear about it in their Economics 101 course.

Read More: Your Parents Were Middle Class Because Of The Soviet Union

479 thoughts on “The American Dream Is Every Man’s Nightmare”

  1. Good post. Younger men, heed these words.
    It’s possible to not get fucked, but it ain’t easy.

    1. Nothing worthwhile is easy. An easy thing is not a thing worth doing. I think it’s foolishly short sighted to tell young men not to look at real estate.

      1. It’s the advice a jig gives to a fool.
        Land and property are the cornerstone of wealth.

        1. Maybe back when a new set of neighbors couldn’t drop your property value by 20% just by moving in.

  2. The American dream is a fast way to get emasculated for sure. Slave to a woman. Slave to the bank. Drink to forget.

    1. Well, I said fast, but really it’s more of a slow painful death depending on how much baggage your woman carries. If you’re really lucky you’ll wake up before having kids. If not, then it can be a long road to rock bottom. But only there can you loose the shackles.

    2. My mate, my beautiful mate. everything was right between her and me. She told me she wanted marriage and kids.
      I lost my sleep, I was like a zombie, only 2hours of sleep a night. She was fine, but not as much as my hard earned freedom!

    3. “Easy money, faithless women, and red eye whiskey for the pain.”
      The Eagles are still a great group.

  3. I completely understand the sentiments expressed in this article and agree 100% that if you go this “normal” route your extremely likely to get fucked. However, owning property is far better then renting in most states and with the housing market still relatively low in most places you can secure a good deal. Most of my co-workers who have a mortgage payment got 2.5% interest on a $200,000 home. Making $150,000 a year they hope to pay it off in 2 or 3 years.
    Once that has been achieved there will no longer be a “housing” payment – only home owner’s insurance. That means for the next 27 years instead of paying 1,000+ a month you can invest or save that. That means retiring with dignity, traveling, investing, and living the life YOU want to lead. Money transforms into whatever we want it to – delicious food, nice clothing, leisure time or plentiful pussy. So I want to be clear – owning property is a worthwhile goal – living above your means is not.
    Lastly, this is worth watching.

      1. If whites did that en masse there would be riots. It’s exactly what happened in Hackney (London 2011) when the blacks there saw the children of Hampstead’s elite snap up apartments and drive up prices. A lot of suburbia should never. have been built, the core of London and many other cities would still be native if planning permission had been blocked.

        1. Blame the Jews like you do in every comments section. There could be an article about gravity and you would call it a Jewish conspiracy to stop white men from flying.

        2. The core of London would still be native if they didn’t let people from the 3rd world come in and get full dole/welfare benefits.

        3. Yeah, really.
          These dudes cannot give it a rest. This site is for men, period.
          You want to take up arms with fellow WN, go to Roissy’s blog.

      2. If you are going to have kids you will want to raise them somewhere safe. Your only safe option in big cities is the Asian part of town. If there is a riot Asian shopkeepers will go onto rooftops with rifles to keep order.

    1. Nobody making $150,000 buys themselves a $200,000 house. You were going well until then.

      1. I plan to. Much of my social circle does. They prefer a 3 bedroom, 2 bath that is completely paid off to a McMansion they slave for years to pay for. Check out central florida housing prices on Zillow if you think I’m full of shit.

        1. No disagreement that a modest 3R house is a good option. However Parkinson’s Law ALWAYS prevails. ALWAYS! $150,000 p/a salary or $200,000 house. Pick one.

      2. Agree. Even if that were the case that person would probably have a few places around the country at that rate.

    2. “Once that has been achieved there will no longer be a “housing” payment – only home owner’s insurance.”
      You can’t possibly have ever owned real estate.

      1. Your right, I haven’t… but I’m debt free and closing in on 6 figures of savings. So I’m doing a lot of research. If you’r referring to maintenance costs, etc – thats a given. I didn’t think that needed to be articulated. If you not, then I’m curious what your talking about. HOA fees? Property taxes? That shit is par for the course – it doesn’t change the central premise.

        1. “Property taxes?”
          There ya go. Ya know what the best deal in a house to flip is?
          People who have lost their homes over not being able to service the debt on their entirely paid off property.
          “it doesn’t change the central premise.”
          Oh yes. Eternal debt does. Very much. Just ask the people referenced above.

        2. Property taxes (which frankly, should be abolished along with the estate tax etc but I digress) are only about $1,200 a year where I’m looking. Not enough to change the equation.

    3. Instead of buying a house some people rent and invest the down payment money in their own business. This gives them a better return than trying to save on their rental whilst having all their capital tied up in a house.

      1. Completely agree. Yet in this economy you need a lot of capital, a very sound business plan, lots of hard work, and possibly a little bit of luck to pull off a successful business. The 90’s are gone.

    4. Your return on your residence will be negative. By definition homes depreciate in value over time. You could invest the difference between the rent and mortgage (assuming your rent is lower) over the same 27 year period and have a higher (positive) return. This return can then be reinvested into an inflation adjusted annuity set at an appropriate rate to pay your rent until the end of your days with one important advantage: you can move anywhere you like whenever you like and no maintenance costs. More importantly, you have no house to lose in a messy divorce.
      A primary strategy for the modern man is to accumulate no illiquid assets (like a house) that can easily be taken off you. Portable assets (like gold bullion) can be easily hidden and moved, unlike your rather vulnerable looking house.

      1. Good point, I know people who are property developers and landlords that always live in a rental home as it pays to have their capital invested in their construction projects rather than in a home that they live in.

      2. You make a solid argument. Yet, I would say that firstly $180,000 (after the DP) at 2.5 percent is cheaper monthly payment than the rent of a decent apartment if you have no roomate. Secondly, depending on the market to provide you a positive return is dangerous since there is a significant possibility that will not happen. Third, the intangible aspect of owning property vs renting is important for many people. Final, currency can be devalued where as some of these houses simply can not get cheaper.
        Your point about divorce is especially poignant though. I can only recommend a rock solid pre-nup signed several times with 2 or 3 months between each. I’ve been told this is the strongest possible legal defense since she will be unable to claim credibly that she was coerced over such a long period of time.

        1. Very well put. I will say regarding rent etc. we would have to make sure we are comparing like with like. So owning a $180k apartment versus renting one of the same value. But yes this only makes sense if the rent is less than the mortgage plus maintenance costs.
          You can almost entirely eliminate market risk based on the investment you make. I wouldn’t recommend putting your entire investment on one risky stock for example.
          The intangible aspect was discussed in the article. Suffice to say, property is always there if you really must have it.
          Actually houses can get “cheaper” (or I assume you mean fall in relative value versus USD). You are aware of course of the crash in the US housing market some years ago. Besides that, they become dilapidated with time and use which must be accounted for.
          My thing on pre-nups is this. If you feel you need a pre-nup before you get married then you probably shouldn’t get married to that woman. I think the idea of romantic marriage is now over and all of us men should take time to really know a woman before committing. This may take years but if you last years with a woman then you will probably never leave her. That said, assume the worst and hide your assets. A house is likely to be the largest asset you have and the one you cannot hide.

        2. The only point I disagree with in on is “if you feel you need a pre-nup before you get married then you probably shouldn’t get married to that woman.” Perhaps I am cynical, but in my mind it’s simply prudent to trust your reasoning above your emotions. You can love her more than anything but acknowledge the frailty of the human condition and the ever present possibility of betrayal or treachery.
          In the military I internalized an expression that has stuck with me ever since: Trust, but verify

        3. If you manage to stack enough cash you could also set up a trust with yourself as the sole beneficially. When structured (i.e. worded) properly, it would effectively shield you from divorce rape, alimony, palimony, lawsuits, extortion, and other vile attempts at parting you with your dough, as it would essentially act as an untouchable rich benefactor remitting a “living wage” to you on a regular basis that cannot be seized by anybody. The major caveat is that, due to such tight constraints, it also essentially ends up functioning like an annuity with no possibility whatsoever to extract more money out of it ahead of time no matter the circumstances. Furthermore, it needs to be set up well BEFORE the Missy enters the picture to avoid the possibility it being dissolved for being set-up to “nefarious” ends (keeping her from the money). There are many complications involved, and you do need to talk to a good (and I do mean a GOOD) attorney to do it right – but it is without a doubt much more bulletproof than even the most airtight pre-nup “agreement”.

        4. The logic of the pre-nup I accept. The trouble with it is that you are basically saying to your future wife upfront, that you don’t trust her and you will continue saying this over the years (when you re-sign it). It kind of goes against the whole spirit of marriage – like pissing in the well. You are also proceeding into marriage with the assumption it will fail. This is why I focus on an asset protection and management as a strategy.
          Another idea, look at estimates for how long marriages last on average, and if you are still with her after that time then marry her (if you want).

        5. Ah.. but the house can belong to the trust and you are simply a beneficial occupant thereof. The possibilities are in fact legion (helps to have a law degree though).

        6. An interesting idea but suppose the ex gets the kids. Is the judge going to kick her and the kids out of the house just because it is owned by a trust?

        7. In theory yes, though there are clauses relating to the maintenance of the “family property” which complicate matters short-term. In essence, though she could remove you first by way of the police, she could then herself be removed from the house by the trust as an “undesirable”. The major silver lining in such a setup is that no judge could force the trust to liquidate the house and remit half the proceeds to her, insofar as the house does not belong to you (nor to her) and you have essentially been granted primary unalienable use of the house by the trust (much like a company residence in a way).
          In a way, such a setup would not be very different from you living in a house owned by one of your parents (with whom you are on good terms of course).

        8. Sounds like it’s worth a shot. You could also establish the trust with your kids as beneficiaries to stop your ex getting her hands on it any case.

        9. I would like to add that our raw animal intuition is one of the most formidable tools we have available to ensure our survival. I can clearly recall the (thankfully few times) when a very sharp visceral gut instinct saved me from what I later learned to be a major catastrophe coming my way. When it comes to our supposedly “evolved” modern environment and (especially) other humans, “trust, but verify” indeed. Better to be wrong than to be dead.

        10. Exactly. In fact, such a setup is often part of the “package” when one looks at the estates of the inherently wealthy. They most certainly did not maintain that wealth across generations (and in the family) without taking all possible precautions into account along the way.

        11. Good insights.
          A creditor can however claim that you are using the trust as an ‘alter ego’ in order to defraud creditors in which case they could make a legitimate claim, they just have to prove it.
          On the positive side, a trust can also never die which means you avoid losing 20% of your net worth to estate duties when you die. Many high net worth families have done this to preserve their wealth as the trust lives on in perpetuity.
          By moving your assets into a trust you essentially impoverish yourself shielding your assets from any personal liabilities. If any creditors show up you essentially have no assets to forgo,

        12. Indeed, the creditor would need to demonstrate that the trust was created with this explicit goal in mind (at the very least). And, if the trust was set up well in advance of having taken on the dept and its structure demonstrates no such blatantly anticipated intent, well.. good luck with that.
          Much like how the mangina judge would need to rule that the original purpose of the trust was indeed to explicitly bypass the marriage-divorce industry.
          Based on my limited reading of court-cases filed thus far, it seems to be (mostly) working, as the fundamentals of contract law upon which the trust rests appear to be impervious to the parameters of divorce-raping – seeing as how family-law has been primarily worded to apply to your traditional garden-variety chump getting his fleecing and subsequent enslavement courtesy of your tax dollars hard at work.
          Though, if women like Hitlary are elected and they do manage to change the legislation dealing with these structures and removing their inherent benefits, then all bets are off, and we might as well go all Somali on their asses – riding technicals, pillaging and reaping what we can where and when we can. It’s either MAD MAX for us or America 3000. Personally, I’d rather have a go at becoming the Humongous, if only for a short while.

        13. The trust owns the property but the husband has an interest in that trust and it may be considered marital assets esp. in these community property states. The trust may also be paying him an income and that too, including the value of the trust may be community property.
          Don’t get married or have a woman live with you. If she lives with you she should always be considered a tenant or a room-mate but the ownership of the house should always be in your name. And no, cops cannot throw you out of your own property but as a tenant she will go if she causes trouble.It will all be in the lease you make her sign even if the rent is $1. Just a formality dear for insurance purposes :o)
          And if you’re crazy enough to get married then make sure that she has the same assets as you and a good job. This way she’ll just get her 1/2 of the money that she put in if you divorce and can’t claim she can’t get a job if she’s a doctor or some other professional.
          But as I said, there’s no reason to marry and she can just live in her own house.

        14. I can assure you that, around these parts, it is most definitely not sufficient to have an “interest” in a trust for it to magically become converted into marital property. Otherwise, a similar deductive process could be used to “convert” the assets of helpful extended family members or even friends in whom the husband has an “interest” into “marital property” too and see them confiscated by the divorce industry as well! Though we have slid quite a ways down towards the implementation of totalitarian matriarchy here we are not that crazy yet, and the right to private property of third parties is still respected. We are thus “fortunate”, insofar as our would-be Robespierres have not yet been able to bring about their desired reign of terror, and a trust can still only be dissolved if it can be shown to have been blatantly and outright created to evade creditors or divorce-rape – not simply because it exists post-fact.
          That being said, I am speaking based on rulings in my specific jurisdiction, and it is very probable that things might be different where you live, whereby your observations would (sadly) be correct.
          As for cops not being able to throw you out of your own house even with her as a tenant well… that’s what fake domestic violence calls to 911 are for, backed by a convenient TRO. And good luck trying to get her evicted as it is nigh impossible so long as she pays on time and does not trash the place outright. At least that’s the way it is here with the Marxist tenancy laws we have and things might indeed be different under you jurisdiction, in which case you would at least have that much more rights to your castle as a man.
          They really got this thing locked down tight gents now, haven’t they. Can’t own anything outright without the threat of divorce-rape. Can’t get help from any “person” (physical or legal) without it potentially being confiscated as well. Apparently, you CAN own property and interests in other jusridictions on this small planet, but it can still be confiscated if she finds out about it and if their legal system abides by the divorce decree produced under your jurisdiction of residence, or even under the one where she gets the divorce pronounced. What’s left? Burying stock certificates in metal boxes in unmarked spots somewhere out in the desert? Stashing away jewelry and gold doubloon on uncharted islands like the pirates of old? This bloody global control grid is turning the whole world into one giant neatly-cataloged and duly-tracked human farm, and doing not a bad job of it I must say.
          And all of this for what should be nothing more than a normal “relationship” between man and woman, as ordained by God. What a fucking shame.

        15. We were talking about Marriage which is a legal contract so anything else you’re referring to is irrelevant and mostly a figure of your imagination and lack of understanding as to the law. Even living with a woman for a period of time may be viewed as a marriage.Any man of substance would be a fool to marry a female with nothing because in the event of divorce guess who’s going to lose, trust or no trust.If you have any assets you’re going to have to be very careful of everything you do and trusts will be viewed as marital property along with everything else you own right down to your Whole Life insurance policy that has a cash value, stock dividends or pensions.You can’t even disinherit a wife.If you were to write a Will leaving everything to your mother and died the probate court would just rewrite it and at the very least the wife would get 1/2 and more likely, all of it.

        16. I’m assuming my reading of local court rulings as pertain to the treatment of trusts during separation of unmarried couples is also a “figment of my imagination” – though you do make a salient point as far as community property and de-facto “legal” marriage is concerned. That does not exist in these here backwaters were I live and, unless there are children involved, two people having a live-in arrangement lasting even a century can exit exactly with what they brought in along the way and no arm of the law can force neither of them to remit anything to the other that is not their very own private property. Sure, the local women’s groups are lobbying to have the laws rewritten in order to bring them up to speed according to “modern” standards, but they have so far been unsuccessful.
          Even so, I concur that (civil) marriage for a man of means to a poor woman is simply suicide. If you have kids or loved ones whom you wish to protect a will and powers of attorney can do the job nicely all on their own. No need to brand yourself like cattle with the mark of government property.

        17. “On the positive side, a trust can also never die which means you avoid losing 20% of your net worth to estate duties when you die.”
          Pretty sure that when I die, I lose all of my net worth.

      3. According to Niall Ferguson in “The Ascent of Money”, an indexed investment into the S&P 500 would have beaten prime New-York and London residential real-estate over the past forty years by a notable margin when all taxes, fees and costs have been duly taken into account – so that much at least remains (historically) true. However, you still need a place to live and call home, as you cannot live inside your securities portfolio. Even so, the point being made here is that you should not sink excess capital into what essentially amounts to a modern cave whose primary purpose is to shield you from the elements.

        1. Yes there are other studies going back over a hundred years showing negative returns to property.
          As you suggest, the purchase of a home should be considered a consumption good rather than an investment. That said, being wise with your money to me, would suggest it makes better financial sense to rent than buy.

        2. It depends on the relative strength of the home owners market versus the rental market. At this time, in my metro area house rentals and apartment rentals are sky high while housing prices are still reasonable. I pay less total for my three bedroom town house than I did for a small two bedroom apartment three blocks away. I used VA so I had $0 down.

        3. It does you are right. There are many complexities in this market. On the whole though, for various reasons, I recommend against home ownership of any kind, especially for men.

    5. I agree. If done properly, real estate can produce lasting value and you can even rent out a section of it when times are tough in order to generate another income stream to help with expenses. The problem I see is that America has some of the shittiest residential buildings quality wise outside of actual Third World slums (not everywhere, I agree, but in a lot of places YES). A very significant portion of American suburban housing constructed from about the 1950s onward has actually been done with materials carefully engineered (read: cheapened) to have a service life not to exceed 50 years tops. Sure, they may look nice from the outside, but do they last? Nah! This, in turn, generates the kind of constant very onerous upkeep experienced by homeowners here that is simply unheard of in Europe where it is not uncommon to pass centuries-old housing from generation to generation with minimal maintenance requirements (comparatively speaking, of course), while keeping a “vibrant” ongoing construction and renovation industry alive and well.
      This is simply another symptom of a country where making a quick buck has taken over almost all other considerations as far as any kind of “durable value” is concerned.
      By all means do buy your homes if your finances truly permit it, as in such cases it really is cheaper than renting in the long run. Just make sure you sink your hard-earned money into something REAL (good brick & mortar construction, solid concrete foundation, thick timber-frame, good windows & doors, quality roof, etc.) as opposed to a cookie-cutter paper-mache box that will rapidly rot away in the elements.

      1. >that is simply unheard of in Europe where it is not uncommon to pass centuries-old housing from generation to generation
        As a European living in a 100+ year old house I agree. I think it boils down to the USA never having had a real culture, everything is built around quick entertainment without a thought about lasting investments.

        1. My house was built before the American Revolution. Your opinion is superficial and lacks nuance, or a basis in reality.
          Out of curiosity, who owns the land your house is built on? Funny thing, so much of Europe, you don’t actually own your own land, even if you own the house and it’s been in your family for 500 years. Some dude who shows up in the House of Lords has his hands so far up the European yeomanry’s asses that their middle class can be mistaken for finger puppets, and yet they still worship the idea that some people are just born better than themselves.

        2. While you really one-uped Euroboy quite well, think hard about who REALLY owns the property underneath ‘your’ house. What’s your property tax situation like? Ever heard of eminent domain? I have.
          You got a mortage? Dare you to miss a few payments on ‘your’ house.
          Do you understand what I mean? It’s all relative.

        3. That’s not what he was talking about.He was talking about land leases vs. freehold.

    6. I agree with you, Im just about school debt free, make a solid salary, and looking to buy some property with intentions to gut and remodel then flip the house. My brother just bought a 90k ranch style house sank 30k into it including labor. the location that he is in he could re-sell that house for a large profit. Instead of wasting my money on rent which is the main point you made, I could be buying and remodeling a lower sales tag home with a big pay check involved after a year or two because I can do all the work myself, which I can either re-invest and do it again or have 30k to sink into some other venture. With rent you’ll never see that money again, this way, Your at least seeing some return.

      1. I think your absolutely correct and I know one guy who does exactly that (in addition to his normal career) but he cautions that is a TREMENDOUS amount of work and still involves both risk and sometime having to sit on a house for quite a while so it seems to be the kind of the thing you should only pursue if you feel very comfortable financially.

        1. The horrible margin and insane degree of risk management makes house-flipping profitable only when backed with cash or as a hedge or loss-leader in a diversified portfolio. Remember all the ‘flip my house’ shows prior to 2008? Neither does anyone else, anymore. Your friend is at a pro-gambler risk level.

    7. You forgot factor in property taxes and maybe HOA as well. Those never go away.

    8. The American Red Pill man should be looking to expatriate.Keep the money to invest in housing outside America.You will get a better deal,both in terms of Real estate value for your money and less toxic social environment for the family (depending on where one chooses to go of course).
      Most of those big houses are just a waste of space anyway.You need a place to sleep,a bathroom,a kitchen and a living room that serves as dining area-hall-recreation room.Heck even a studio with just a kitchen and bathroom are more than sufficient.Remember, the cardinal rule of Red Pill Manhood is to NEVER do things because it impresses women but rather that you can justify it to yourself.

      1. I live in a 1-room studio.
        With an attached 2-car vaulted garage.
        The studio is nearly empty. The garage is full of tools, equipment, and vehicles.
        That’s how I roll.

    9. Cody, thanks for the positive response. I agree with you that going the normal route gets you fucked, and that an alternative path is mandatory. It sounds like you are already aware of this, and are looking at some Plan B options.
      I complied the article using many examples of friends I have known through the years. I ommitted the names, but I can assure you, these examples are true to life. They are locked into something that, if they choose to get out of it, will result in a serious financial blow to the sternum.
      I have chosen to expatriate. I pay close to nothing for my living expenses aborad. I still love my country, but I am also a realist. I would love to return to the states full time if things changed. But I am not holding my breath, and I am not willing to wait it out for that to occur. I could die before that day ever arrives.

  4. The American Dream existed in a brief period from the 1950s to the 80s (some say it began to end in the 70s). Now only few will have enough income left to make it happen. Most of those guys will be Betas anyway, who will lose the home and the kids to their Alpha-Widow-wives, who read sites like At least in the pre-feminism times men were the captains of their castles. Now they are reduced to pure working mules, while getting starved financially by the system. To the chagrin their women prefer to have short-time-flings with the stallions of our times.
    Unless you are one of the few who has a strong Alpha frame, great financial resources or an excellent job with perspective AND has found one of those few NAWALT WOMEN left, then following HER American Dream is the way of a slow and painful inner suicide.

    1. Exactly. Take all the facts laid out in this post, and then add to that the
      fact that even if a man can manage to afford all of these things and
      realize the “dream”…all of his toils can be brought to naught at
      nothing more than the mere whim of his woman, and it’s a mindfuck how
      any man could even consider pursuing the “American Dream”.
      I’ll stick with my apartment, lifting weights, reading, watching TV and
      traveling. And maybe, once in a while, getting my balls drained by a
      halfway decent looking bitch. Until our society and legal system ceases to enable and incentivize thieving, cuckolding cunts to thieve and cuckold their men, I’ll be sitting poolside, drinking a beer.
      Sadly, I think it would take a full, complete collapse of our civilization to bring about such a drastic change. Pandora’s box has been opened, women can vote, and there’s no way the 19th Amendment will be repealed after so many decades of feminist ideologies becoming part of every woman’s belief system via osmosis.

      1. Right on target James Russell….I know at least half a dozen married women living the ‘dream’ who would bed me, and I assume others, at the drop of a hat. Their lack of gratitude is disgusting. These women not only have the house, SUV, kids but even house cleaners & cooks. Their indolent lives are like a permanent vacation. I can’t even imagine what they do all day but their husbands put in 60 plus hour per week. To their credit, they DO look really good & work out ALOT to maintain said looks. I guess that’s sort of their job.

        1. Sadly, they stay fit more for other men than their own husbands it seems. Their husbands give them a life that 99% of the world population can only dream of, and in return, their wives cuckold them with men who’ve never done anything for them, in their own home which they pay for, in their own marriage bed.
          Then again, from my point of view, fucking another mans wife and creampie’ing her in their bed would be an amazing experience. I’ve gotten some vibes from 2 pretty good looking milfs I see at work, but I guess I’m still too human to pursue them.

        2. To be honest, I have sort of a grudging respect for these types of women. I know some of these women, and while they can be flirtatious as hell, they ultimately understand their role and what they are essentially being paid to do. These women spend hours in the gym and, say what you will, but that requires some real effort and discipline. I can’t fault them for staying hot for other men if their own husbands aren’t staying attractive themselves by being more alpha. The type of women that makes my blood boil are the ones that let themselves go to shit and then use the tacit threat of divorce rape (or actual divorce) to make their poor husbands’ lives a living hell. Unfortunately, the latter type is far more common in my experience.

        3. Be careful with married women. Betas are big pussies, but they have been known to snap when thoroughly disrespected.
          Get caught fucking a beta’s wife in his own bed and you’re liable to have your chest opened up by a 12 gauge.
          Be careful out there.

        4. I’ve been told that in Texas that would be considered justifiable homicide/crime of passion. To my thinking, should be nationwide.

        5. You’re right Mofo, and what makes it worse, the women I referred to are all really likeable. But so are their husbands. These are Southern women so they’re super charming; at least towards me, may be different at home. I also agree with the last part of your comment, far, far too common.

        6. I’m also in the south, so it may be a Southern phenomenon. And yes, their husbands are all either alphas (who couldn’t care less if they flirt with me) or wealthy betas who they are not about to leave (if they are halfway intelligent, that is–I know a few who have divorced wealthy doctors while in their 40s under the laughable notion that there was something better out there for them).

        7. ‘something better out there for them’…unbelievable, but I too have seen women in a great situation foul their own nest & destroy their families. Baffling.

        8. Don’t hurt other men James. Bros before hoes. They may be beta but they simply do not know better yet, and may well turn out to be good men later on in life. Fucking them over like that is major disrespect for men in general. You can do better.

        9. Oh yeah, I know. Besides that there’s always the likelihood that cunt would pull the False Rape Accusation card to rationalize her guilty conscience or just weasel out of taking responsibility for what she’s done..
          It will always just be kind of a fantasy for me.

        10. Ahhh yes, the boundless charms of a southern woman. Unfortunately this is usually coupled with strong narcissistic traits. Their egos and bottomless desire for approval/attention from always new sources (read: narcissistic supply) is a phenomena one must live to appreciate. Don’t expect a chaaarming southern woman to make a lasting effort to satisfy her man, though, or even her “friends”. Even if well-fucked, their hypergamy is never fulfilled and you WILL be left in a barren waste-land of sex. If you fall for the southern woman charm, develop thick skin, sit back, and watch them plow through the “friends” on the way up the ladder.
          Mint Julips anyone?

        11. Sounds as if you know from experience, I know I do. That accurate a description isn’t just a spectator’s best guess.

        12. Yep, can’t disagree with any of that. Still, they are quite enjoyable from an emotional distance.

        13. “they are quite enjoyable from an emotional distance”
          Yes indeed – cognitive dissonance is necessary to deal with a southern woman. Sounds like mofo and apeiron have a little genteel southern woman experience also.

        14. The whole point with slavery is that you don´t have to pay the slave that much.

        15. The ironic thing is that such husbands is exactly what made feminism possible in the first place.
          Given the longer-term consequences, them getting cuckholded is really a light punishement, I don´t consider them that much human.
          Feminism only emerged in societies where women where provided for more than ever, had less to work in the last 10-20 years than in the 200 000 years of human history before that.

        16. “but they have been known to snap when thoroughly disrespected.”
          Their bosses wouldn´t dare having them go under the table for promotion if that was the case.
          Bill Clinton would probably have been castrated by a disgrunted male employee a long time ago.

        17. Yeah, I caught my wife messing around with a loser like you. He was later found with a sizable amount of narcotics and measuring utensils in his car. He was given time at State, where I just “happen” to be pen pal with a lifer. I put the max on my pen pal’s books each month. The stooge who messed around with my now ex-wife has a miserable existence in the joint.

        18. “To their credit, they DO look really good & work out ALOT to maintain said looks. I guess that’s sort of their job”
          That, plus all wives must be willing to do whatever their husbands want in bed.
          I too have met these types of wives, older but well preserved. I don’t bang anything over the age of 30, but at least these aged spinsters are not ugly to look at, unlike the depressing and drab appearance of of a lot of saggy titted grandmas one commonly sees.
          And yeah it’s off putting to see these trophy wives hitting on me when I know some chump is busting his ass because the system has convinced him that the end game is the suburban nightmare.

        19. “Be careful with married women. Betas are big pussies, but they have been known to snap when thoroughly disrespected”
          Indeed. The pressure cooker of society is building and some guys when they snap they don’t care of the consequences. It’s a sign of the times that things have become pretty extreme when a man will sacrifice his life and everything just to have the last word.

        20. Any man who has the mindset that it’s ok to cheat with another man’s wife is part of the problem. Beta or Alpha it’s not right. If men refused to commit adultery then part of the problem would be solved

        21. Right on. If men would very carefully investigate if a woman was telling the truth about her circumstances and avoid cheating, then half the problem, or all of it would be solved.

        22. Men will not succeed without honor. No matter how Alpha you think you are, there is always someone with more money that can kick your ass and take your woman. Men should behave with some honor and keep their hands off of other men’s woman

        23. Well said. Half of the problem is men not being willing to keep their hands off of other men’s women.

        24. “Men will not succeed without honor. ”
          I disagree. Unfortunately there is plenty of scum out there – look at the elite bankers. Look at other billionaire / millionaires who probably worship Satan and blow goats.
          It is very easy to succeed without any honor. That said, I think it is prudent for a man to be honorable for his own personal greater good; but sadly not too many men understand this.

        25. Maybe more like its untenable rather than impossible. Those guys are leaving quite the wake behind them.

        26. I’m sorry but that’s just a really bitch thing to do on its face. If you want to handle that yourself then have the balls not to call daddy. More importantly, your wife is way more at fault than that guy, and to be honest, YOU’RE more culpable than that guy. What he did was wrong but what you did was pure bitch. Handle your own without calling daddy.

        27. True BUT blaming other men for one not handling their wives is a huge mistake.

        28. Proverbs 30:20 shows there is ‘nothing new under the sun’. Hard to imagine men ever thought women capable of virtue. And, though most of recorded history, men did not. I blame Jane Austen.

      2. You forgot to add a crucial point.
        My parents told me as a child, “the most valuable investment you can make is a house because the stock market does not pay good returns”. This belief is common amongst baby boomers, the result has been world wide housing bubbles, leaving my generation out of the market and forced to rent at exorbitant rates. (I must write about this.)
        The result of this will be a lower fertility rate which in turn will mean more houses than people, bringing about a house crash.
        It is bad enough that feminism has driven women too insane for marriage to the point of sub replacement fertility.

        1. Not to mention that, compared to a good S&P 500 index fund held over the past 40 years, they would have been dead wrong, even with the recent drastic fluctuations of the past decade.

        2. Your parents had no idea what they’re talking about. A house is a place to live not an investment.
          The reason that females like houses and property is because it’s in a fixed location and the husband just can’t pick it up and take it with him like cash or bonds, or sell it quickly. It would actually be cheaper to rent a new house every couple of years for a few thousand a month plus a few hundred in utilities. All of the real costs like taxes, insurance, repairs and upkeep the owner has yo do. If you don’t like a place you can just move to another when the lease is up. No buying and selling costs and perhaps a long wait to sell. You’ll also be in a higher class area because the rental market of more expensive property is not good (unless it’s in some resort area or the Hamptons etc and that’s usually in the Summer)
          In a good area if there were say a few townhouses around and they sold for $500k the rents may only be $2500 while for $2500 in some middle class type area you’d likely be getting a property worth only $200k-300K. Most people are unaware of this

        3. actually women like comfort and validation, that’s why they push husbands to get larger houses they can afford. Charlie Brooker, a British comedian did a great job in exposing this idiocy.

        4. Because brain dead Gen Y and Millennial pyjama boys who can’t even figure out how to talk to a female are really doing great lol
          If you were born after 1980 you very likely suffer from some brain dysfunction. Although there’s been TV around since 1950, none of those Boomers sat staring at the screen for hours at a time. Simply staring at a TV screen or a monitor will destroy your rational and logical thinking which is why you boys don’t have a clue. And you don’t even know that you don’t have a clue. By the time you reached your teens it was already too late to correct the damage and about all you’re good for is some cubicle working drone job that a Mongoloid can be trained to do. You will never be able to think independently or survive on your own without a drone job or government benefits. You’re completely brain dead and helpless on your own. This is why Boomers who had the highest IQ ever in history control everything and own your arses. We take your money away from you, have our cops kick your butts just to show you our power, and take all of the young top females away from you while leaving you blanket boys the fat fugly smelly old used skanks. Suckers! lol
          If I were you I’d take the gaspipe now because your life under your Boomer masters is just going to be one of total degradation. They’ll just use you to shine their shoes and as foot stools, and the young girls for bj’s ( you won’t get) Later, you’ll be wiping their butts at the rejuvenation spas where all of that Obamacare money will be spent.Why do you think all of the Boomers are for health care. Al of the research money will be used for life extension research while you’ll be dying from the experimental viruses we’ll be dropping on you to keep the pop. in check.
          Aww, life will be sweet for the Boomers. Of course we’ll liquidate the lower and middle class Boomers, they’re trash anyway, and it will just be we Elite.And when we die at an average age of 200, we’ll be frozen for the future and cloned. We’ll always be around and will be Masters of the earth FOREVER ruling over the slaves.

        5. Not sure if parody or serious? but wow what a fucked up argument.
          News Flash, Boomer Era is coming to an end. I can’t wait for all you asset hoarding rich fat fucks to finally retire and then die! I’ll be making millions of you while you’re in your old people homes. Laters!

        6. Nice trolling, pushes the right buttons. But boomers don’t write or think like that.
          They tend to be idealistic and civic minded to the point of child-like naivety.
          They don’t use allcaps writing “shit was so cash” 4chan style copypasta taunts.
          They use idioms like “hijinks” ,”lollapalooza, and “chop chop.” And instead of being here commenting, they’d more likely be doing the crossword in an actual paper newspaper.

        7. You, like so many millennials, have the generation ID wrong. I am a Boomer. It is my parents (The Greatest Generation) that gave the advice about houses being good investments. It was a good investment for them because the boomers were coming up behind them and they could make obscene profits off the demand we generated. Then came the bust. I have owned a half dozen homes in the course of a long life and have not made a dime off any one of them. I advise my sons (millennials) to rent for as long as possible and only buy if driven to it by extremely warped rent/own markets.

        8. It was true in the ’70s when inflation was higher than most people’s mortgage rates and the stock market went sideways for a decade.
          The real problems with houses are that they’re illiquid, if you’re forced to sell, it will usually be when the market tanked, houses are economically unproductive, they need huge amounts of maintenance, they’re taxed every year, the whole market is leveraged, flooding the market with money so that on average prices go up everywhere, and you have to live somewhere, preferably somewhere where you can earn a living, so the gains are illusory.

        9. Year ago I was listening to some financial show out of Boston. Needless to say it was another ‘shit on millennial’ segment. Folks in their 50’s-60’s complaining how millennials weren’t buying their homes at $475K-$500k. Some millennial chimed in and said he wasn’t buying a home for $475K that needed work.
          Well of course the boomers then had to respond, “oh how typical: millennial not wanting to do any work.” Well the millennial happily shut them up by responding, “at $2,500/ month for med school loans and 75 hours of work a week, you’re damn right I’m not paying $475K for a home that looks like grandmas and needs at least $75K in renovations when you bough the thing for $35K.”

      3. Bullseye. Now multiply your mentality by millions. Men are slowly waking up.
        Change happens REALLY slowly though.

      4. ‘In over forty years, I never met a man that actually dreamed of owning a home in the suburbs.’
        We associate with people like ourselves so apparently you’re a 40yo loser. Renting a room? Couch surfing or some worthless land in hillbilly country?
        Men do buy things for THEMSELVES and the suburbs are a good area. It’ wooded and countrified enough to seem like you’re in the country with horses and apple tress etc while still being in an area where you’re around sophisticated upper class girls and not out in the crappy country with Bubba and the lower classes. It’s also close enough to a city to drive there or take one of the nice comfortable negro free commuter trains.
        And for someone who is 40 you don’t have the slightest idea what things really cost. Still living in mommy’s cellar rent free pyjama boy?
        The cost of the actual home is really just a mere fraction of your total expenses, and btw, banks will lend you 2.5x what your income is in general and that’s assuming that you don’t have any loans reducing that income. A $350k home with let’s say a $100k down payment means the loan is $250k which means you need a $100k income.

      5. Quote: “Pandora’s box has been opened, women can vote, and there’s no way the 19th Amendment”
        If one entertains conspiracy theories about bringing down society then one might argue that giving women the right to vote was phase I to destroying society. Hormonal driven animals vote socialist and it’s the same as putting a chimpanzee at the helm of a 747 in mid flight.

      6. I despise apartments in general, but even outside of that, you have to consider that everything you own can go up in flames because a neighbor three doors down decided to light candles around her house and then open all of her windows on a windy day (I actually witnessed this once). The whole complex, poof, up in smoke. Gone. Apartments may save you from the “Murican Dream”, but they won’t save you from happenstance at the hands of others. Plus they’re noisy and frankly I despise living that close to others.
        Have you considered buying some land out in the country? It’s a great way to live.
        Agreed completely on the whole idiocy of letting women vote. Gads, what were our grandfathers thinking?

        1. There’s a huge market for affordable one bedroom units/bachelors, and most of mine are occupied by older single men who all seem quite content to live the fuck alone, as am I. It’s like living in university residence again, just that we’re all 40-80. Come to think of it, all of us have been married at least once and it’s unanimous: NEVER AGAIN!
          As for going up in flames? Who gives a fuck? Anything that’s really important is in a safety deposit box, otherwise what little I have can all be replaced. Let ‘er burn to the ground, she’s all fucking insured!

        2. You ever hear of Insurance? lol In fact, if you ever borrow money the bank will force you to insure what is their property until you pay it off.

        3. Another peasant who doesn’t have insurance lol Anyone who does not have Homeowner’s Insurance is a dumb prole. And if you’re renting you’re really only insuring the contents, since the owner worries about his building, it’s cheap. If you have a small 3 room apt. you’d need about $50k coverage for your things and that would cost about $200 a year. That’s all.Homeowner’s Insurance is a package policy an covers anumber of areas in addition to your property being destroyed or stolen.It will cover a certain % of off premises theft so that if something is stolen from you car or another location where you’re staying you’ll collect. No, auto insurance dos not cover this.It also includes liability in case someone injures themselves at your place and you’re sued.It covers additional living expenses if you have to rent a more expensive place when yours burns down so if you’re paying a $1k and can only find a $2k place it covers the difference for awhile.
          So for the price of a BigMac a week it’s just moronic to not have a Homeowner’s Tenants policy. The owner won’t pay for your loss and if you’ve ever read the lease it usually says that you agree to have Insurance.
          We have some real clueless dummies on this blog.

        4. That was to Jefferson the hillbilly. The country? Normal people want the sophisticated and civilised country/suburbs not Deliverance land.When I go to the village I don’t want to see fat girls in bib overalls but slim girls in riding gear.

        5. I guess I didn’t make myself clear. I own the complex and I have insurance. I live in one of my units because I don’t need anything more than a bachelor unit. As I said, I don’t give a damn if it goes down in flames as the nice insurance company will build me a brand new one.
          If I were a simple renter then yes, I agree, I’d have Tenants Insurance, but not necessarily for the contents (I might have $1500 worth of personal possessions at the most), more for liability issues, if for instance somebody takes a tumble in my unit and cracks their head on my floor, or if I’m found responsible for a complex fire which started in my unit, as you indicated.
          I may live like a peasant, but I’m just a little more wealthy than one.

        6. There’s a huge market for inexpensive yet reasonably secure storage units. Once you’ve decided that it’s simpler to stay travelling for a while, you’ll stuff all your kit in one and Bug The Freak Out.
          If you’re really, really lucky, you’ll stumble on arrangements where you can observe what your alternative life choices would have been like: married with kids, living in a suburban house, and all of the usual choices, plus added variables such as doing it in other countries.
          Think of it as your own personal version of touring the nine circles of Hell, Dante-style. 🙂
          BTW, suburban developments suck just as badly in other countries — living near the end of Throbnozzle Close, down the road from the East Batshit Academy for Girls, a few hundred metres off the A666 in Porking Newtown, is about as horrid as living in an American Levittown.
          “And now we’re here in Levittown, looking for the Westphalia peace that we never found”, to parody Billy Joel …

      7. I absolutely agree. The slate would need to wiped clean bring to about drastic change. And the sad part too, is that women have shown themselves for who they truly are biologically. Men have built civilization and fought wars and provided for families, but once given the chance to completely enslave a man by proxy, women took full advantage of it and even threw religious morals and values away along with it. Sometimes I wonder if females even have souls. They truly are psychopathic by nature.

    2. A Suburban home is NOT the American dream…. the American dream was the immigrants dream of low to zero taxes and being able to step outside of the landed gentry hierarchy,
      no longer did you need to be born into wealth you could create it yourself, without Lord Ponsonby, along with all the Kings horsemen robbing it from you, whilst looking down their nose, because without a title of course you were a lowly serf that not only had no rights to own much of anything but was considered too stupid to take care of it…
      watch shows like Downton Abbey and see how they used to look down their noses at each other…. this was done to keep the wealth concentrated… if you were a gardener you were a fucking peasant….. today if you are a gardener you can build a coast to coast empire of gardeners, sell books, videos, start a reality TV show etc. etc. etc.
      The American Dream still exists… whatsapp was sold for $18B dollars…. it’s just that the american dream does not exactly exist according to a geographical location, least of all in the United States.

      1. Social mobility in the US is terrible. You have 300% the chances in Sweden for reaching a higher financial class than in the US. Up until the 1970s it was the opposite.
        Back in the 1970s a completely unskilled 21-year-old immigrant could get the lowest menial job in a steel mill and earn more than most middle managers in corporations nowadays (adjusted for inflation and cost of living). Within 3 years that young guy could buy a house, 2 cars, finance a family and pay it all off within a decade. Good luck with that nowadays!

        1. “Social mobility in the US is terrible”
          Terrible compared to where? Russia? China? Brazil? Where is there more social mobilty?
          Sweden may have social mobilty, but at what cost? I dare you to be a man and live in Sweden. They will force you to pee sitting down.

        2. Socialism and high wages due to strong healthy unions are 2 different things. The US had those too in the past – men were actually earning more than in Sweden or Switzerland in many jobs.
          Brazil and China has way lower social mobility of course – you are right. Still – that once great system of the US was destroyed by design: “Fifteen Steps to Corporate Feudalism: How the Rich Convinced America’s Middle Class Eliminate Themselves” by Dennis Marker.

        3. Those halcyon days of high wages for un/semi-skilled work are gone forever, because they were fake due to the effects of WWII damage and death, protectionism and international communism. Those things all served to decrease the available labor supply, thus driving up its value. Once Europe and Japan recovered and rebuilt their industrial infrastructure, that labor supply increased. After China and then India started cutting their commie/socialist red tape, the labor supply ballooned.
          So, in order to get back to that golden age of overpaid labor, we need to kill about 2 billion people, or erect massive trade barriers.

        4. Sensible Tariffs were part of any nation’s normal business practice. China is doing it now expertly. The fallacy is to believe that wages were “artificially” high. The fast-food worker in Switzerland gets 25$ per hour. There are so many many manipulations going on with our system that it is mind-boggling. The official economic narrative is just a steaming pile of shit.
          And the bad thing is that most people buy into it. Some economists know about it and even write on the subject. A universally way more beneficial system could be created within 2-5 years. There is a Red Pill of Economics too and it is not the Libertarian One as portrayed by the likes of Ayn Rand and some “Alternatives”. That ship is even filled wiith more crazies than the current one. The sad part is that non-billionaires believe in it with more fervor than the actual beneficiaries who know that it is a con of global proportion.

        5. Sir, you have intrigued me. Would you consider writing a post on RoK outlining the red pill of economics, as well as references to specific books/posts we can read to learn more?

        6. I might do so. Actually there should be 2 articles – one in which I point out what a man can do to optimize his finances and avoid the biggest pitfalls that most of the middle class falls into. And the other the article should explain our economic system and what can be done about it. The actual solutions to our so-called capitalist way are beyond the elite-given talking points of libertarianism, laissez-faire capitalism or socialism. A sound system starts where most media and academia opposes it right off-the-bat. I might do those 2 articles – 2 are necessary because one is mostly theoretical for now and the other is practical as we may not be able to solve the world’s economic problems, but we certainly can solve our personal ones.

      2. To the old European aristocracy of today you still remain a fucking (though rich) peasant. They never learn until your real-estate corporation buys up their castle in the south of France and leases it back to them, effectively making them your bitch as new overlord of these lands. And even then, they still will not accept their new place in the modern global pecking order. They will (cringingly) pay the rent but don’t expect any invitations to their garden-parties.

        1. Well, fact is I don’t care what I am to the old European aristocracy of today.
          What are they to me?

        2. Those châteaus are being bought by Very wealthy Oligarchs
          not some mom and pop realty co.
          One well off peasant means nothing, they have always been around. Like most Americans you know nothing. not even what a peasant means. A peasant is a land owner. Your ancestors were not peasants but something much lower, tenant farmers which would be like sharecroppers or migrant farmers in the US.
          You can dream all you like, like these useless pyjama boys on here but people pretty much remain in the class they were born into. It’s all about breeding and heredity. And you can’t fool mother nature just because 1 in a million does well.

        3. Hit a nerve there pal? Looks like the more sardonic aspects of my post went right over your head didn’t they, as I was mostly referring to their rigid caste-like structure where you remain a vile lowlife in their eyes no matter your talents and accomplishment, unlike the more meritorious qualities of an earlier America that (sadly) no longer exists. But then again, I’m assuming the Habsburg jaw and other congenial defects afflicting much of the older European Aristocracy really do constitute the mark of proper breeding and good (healthy) heredity which cannot fool nature – no sir indeed.
          And I speak this as a first-generation no-longer European immigrant to a country that is not the USA but very much tries to be like her in many respects. Though I guess ‘murica really does rub off on us doesn’t she?

        4. Even in the days of Feudalism there was a sort of meritocracy. Where do you think the tradesmen and clergy came from.
          So you’re a wog living in Australia lol Probably a Paki or jew from the former USSR

        5. Why is he even mentioning this, it’s irrelevant.A King is just the head of State and the aristocracy are the top people regardless of what names they give themselves.

      3. This isn’t quite right. The Aristocracy in Europe was quite fluid up until recently. It actually reflected ability and cunning until the late 1880s.
        Even now the British system gives these titles out to achievers.
        Never the less property is the cornerstone of wealth. Big productive farms are a fairly good idea if you own the land.
        You are also confusing exceptionalism with dream. The American Exceptionalism of which you speak is really about inalienable rights. Of which you have few left. The railways, coal and oil barons can still arbitrarily trample you.

    3. My dad made it happen, but my mom makes about 40 k more than he does…but she owes him since he taught her everything she knew to get the job. They’re together still after 40 years, but he is far from alpha. My mom runs his life. His brother’s a self-made multimillionaire with a submissive wife (who takes vacations across the world whenever), and dad’s constantly cutting on him even though he lives on the other side of the country. Dad likes to call him stupid, claim he has an inferiority complex, claim he cheated, and say he neglected ‘the important things (wife& kids) ‘ in life /was selfish. For the record, my uncle lives in a rural mansion he bought with one cash payment. Dad got a phd while uncle started a company out of college. Goes to show you – your dream is more valuable than the American dream, and if you make it real, you can still buy the American dream as a sideshow if you like.

    4. Yup. I have a 4 bedroom house, live by myself, don’t want a bitch wife who will end up trying to steal it from me or roommates who will refuse to pay or move out. My current girlfriend spends the night occasionally, but she doesn’t have a closet or her own room, or her own space, or permission to leave stuff here.

    5. Your comment took the words right out from under my key pad, and articulated much more eloquently than I could have. Thanks.

    6. Exactly.
      The so-called American Dream is a product of Post WWII Madisson Ave. brainwashing via the new propaganda tool we know as TV, while America basked in its absolute power over the rest of the war-torn planet. It was during the “Happy Days” that American men fell asleep at the wheel, chasing wholesale pussy mad-man style and letting a succession of politicians enslave future generations to the world banksters through endless war, taxation, and the infinitely expanding vagina welfare state.
      But, that arbitrage advantage quickly evaporated.
      It only took the nuked nation of Japan a mere 3 decades to start threatening the bedrock of our manufacturing base when they started flooding the market with inexpensive quality automobiles. And since then, much of the world has caught up to us and surpasses us in some cases. There is no dream left for the average American male. What remains is a nightmare of losing all the things my parents (your grandparents) took for granted.
      Now, we are left with tax and wage slavery to pay for this, while having emasculated by society and having every aspect of manhood colored as abhorrent criminal hate.

  5. This is terrible advice. Terrible.
    The author lacks any Future Time Orientation. The only way you can maintain wealth is to buy your own property and make sure no blacks move in next door to that residential or commercial porperty.
    One of the great sins of the housing bubble in the 2000s was offering mortgages to blacks who consistently appear to show the attitude of the author above. Most blacks have negative equity whilst whites on average have $150,000 in equity. It’s all down to thinking about the long term as regards to whites and saying “fuck it” for blacks who know that they devastate housing values wherever they show up.

    1. I think you’re missing the point, the author did not say we should avoid buying property as investments.
      He is advising us to live within our means and to avoid being subjected to the whims of female cuntery smoke screened as the ‘American Dream (TM)’

      1. That’s a different point. I read the same article. That’s not clearly articulated in the text.
        That sort of strategy would work best in Germany btw. Most people rent instead of own. They have a huge manufacturing sector still. So you could rent and invest in business instead. Although I would want to own the commercial property my business used.

      2. That was my attempt, at least. I am not anti real estate, but encourage people to think about these pricy purchases that are deemed otherwise normal.

  6. *shudders* My girl (soon to be ex) has told me many times her dream is to own a nice home.

    1. It’s a positive goal. She was never going to say she wants to raise her kids in a cardboard box or the back of a 89 Econovan. Heck, I want a mansion.

      1. I’d like her the fuck out of my townhouse (rental). then I get the bawling tears of “where do I go?”. fuck I dont know, go live with your mom or something?

        1. My buddy’s a lawyer. A complete cynic, as he’s a bankruptcy lawyer. He had a gf squatting at his place who refused to leave. So he tacked a notice of eviction to his bedroom door, and 30 days later had the Marshalls escort her to her car. Foolish woman thought that having a vagina and the ability to cry on command would keep her from being given directions to the homeless shelter. She was wrong.

        2. He is lucky she didn’t accuse her of “Domestic Partner Violence.” Would have gotten ugly.

  7. The American Dream, the dream that brought immigrants from all over the world looking for a better life is:
    To own your own property and take your living from it, beholden to no man.
    This article is about what I call The American Dream(tm), a marketing scheme to sell an ersatz version of The American Dream, a cartoon caricature of the dream, to drain you of your resources and make you beholden to the money lenders in perpetuity.
    While leaving you with the impression that you’ve made a good deal for yourself, because you sold yourself into indenture on terms better than the historical norm.
    Which you are taught to call “wealth,” and even “freedom.”

  8. You never own the land, 1st your banks own the land then 2nd -your government owns the land. You’re renting and you don’t even know know and the tenants are more dangerous than mobsters. They will take what you may have owned gor teneratuons first non option is a slow risk as possible. Cheap rent (shared house) shared collateral. Apartment if city or town house in the boondocks.if things are truly dire opt for a caravan- safest yet. The greatest fear a government and bank (the team) holds over your head is that it can take your roof from over your head. Once you understand that you can adapt, adapt means you can survive.

    1. I keep hearing this over and over again and I would like to make an important clarification here. When you buy land or housing, even with a mortgage, neither the bank, nor the city, nor the state, nor the federal government actually owns it anymore (though you still have to abide by their regulations). As far as I can tell, this notion that you never “own” any land in America is absolute bull and it creates a dangerously misleading fallacy designed to keep the indentured peons in check. What they do “own”, however, is a very real LIEN on you property generated by your debt allowing them to confiscate it from you if you fail to make payments – with the bank usually getting first priority followed by the city, then the higher-level government bodies. Actually, any creditor to whom you are indebted, even the cable company, can put a LIEN on you residence and (theoretically) confiscate it for non-payment of a bill.
      Small difference you say? Not quite. Unlike a rental, you can SELL you home, even with a mortgage (assuming you can find a buyer). Sure, you will only receive the remaining equity in cold hard cash as proceeds, but the simple fact remains that you did, in fact SELL your private property. Try doing that with a rented apartment or car and see how that goes.
      At least that’s how it works in my country (very much like the USA in many respects), and I’m therefore assuming it not to be too different in America. If your laws are different, however, and they actually prevent you from selling mortgaged property, then you guys truly are fucked.

      1. You are wrong. Even when you fully paid your debits and your house you still must pay land tax every year. Once you cannot pay… the executor will take it back.. piece for piece. That’s the ridiculous reality. You don’t own nothing.

        1. Yes but it is a TAX you are paying on your land and house, not RENT (unfair, I agree, but still a big difference). Same here where I live. The point was that you can still sell the house and land you bought (as long as you do it before you run short on your land tax payment), but you cannot do so with something that is leased out to you, as has been claimed by those who say that you never own land in America and you only lease it from the government short-term. Otherwise, I fail to see how your comment detracts from my general argument, unless you misread me.

  9. Any man STUPID enough to get married to an American woman DESERVES to suffer. Any man STUPID enough to ALLOW himself to be used as a slave by a woman, DESERVES to suffer. Any man STUPID enough to buy a house in the suburbs for his wife, DESERVES to suffer.

    1. How do they not look at their overweight mom & not see their future wife’s weight? I guess they don’t think they deserve a young, thin girl in 20 years.

      1. Most of them don’t have overweight moms (or didn’t, if we’re talking about men 25 and older). My mother is in her late 60’s and has never been a pound above “svelte” in her lifetime. Same for most of her friends that I know.
        Now today’s man under 25, I agree entirely. Being surrounded by 30-something aged land whales everywhere is quite off putting.

    2. True for that, Mr. Doe. But you have to understand the “control of reality” is so pervasive that you don’t have to be stupid to end up married to an American woman. I know a fellow from a rough neighborhood where everybody was poor and in gangs and he moved to a better area where I lived. He had no ambition before he moved. He explained this to me once. He said that when you don’t see any differences at all, then you don’t know they exist at all. To him, before he moved, poverty was all he perceived. Seeing other people have success opened the door for him (and evidently he was not into television because “I can do that” was his reaction instead of jealousy).

    3. Nope! It’s a game, an lot of us have not been taught the rules! It’s like going to casino playing poker, but not knowing the probabilities. You’re sure have more probabilities to lose!

  10. I don’t know about “most” men in america but my dream has always been to own land (like my father and his father before him). I have the means to do so and I will. No woman will ever be the head of my household or relationship.. so i’m that 1%. The problem with a lot of men is that they’re broke and unambitious with shitty “JOBS”. This article speaks a lot about American men. So sad. (by the way i’m a Nigerian American and will never marry a white American trash that y’all call women)

    1. Well land could be a few dozen rural acres to farm or hunt on. A condo in the city. He is saying that the specific suburban dream is rarely the man’s dream.

    2. Amen. But, then again, you have the advantage of having your father’s guidance, yes? A lof of these poor kids don’t have that. Poverty of the spirit can translate into plan old poverty.

  11. This cannot last though. Housing prices will fall because either the Federal Reserve will raise interest rates (assuming that troll woman is replaced) or people won’t buy houses. Housing prices will fall and they will correct at a catastrophic rate.
    As for the American dream, it’s whatever you desire it to be. I’d like to own a home someday and not be beholden a landlord. At the same time, though, I don’t plan on getting a mortgage to buy it, so this goal is a long-term goal that may not be fulfilled for a decade or so.
    I should note also that there are plenty of successfully married Alphas out there who have lots of kids and it hasn’t slowed them down as men. So don’t think that wife and kids will slow you down. If you are a sufficiently Alpha man, that will not get in your way.

    1. You might think that but you would be wrong. People have to live somewhere so the prices of houses won’t fall below the fair rental value.

  12. I don’t feel sorry for a guy who doesn’t put his foot down at the git-go. It is definitely possible to own a house, live on the cheap, raise children and get by just fine without breaking the bank.
    A guy who finds a woman who isn’t willing to make any realistic sacrifices in lifestyle should get on his knees, be thankful for this heavenly sign, and LEAVE ASAP before committing to anything.

    1. A young man about to be married recently asked me for advice. Odd, since I’ve been divorced three times, all initiated by not altogether fulfilled wives, poor dears. I told him my best advice was to say NO early & often & MEAN it.

    2. True words. If your girl isn’t happy to live the way you want to live, ask her why she wasn’t able to marry a surgeon or lawyer. Open the door for her and slap that ass on the way out.
      And yes, it is very possible to buy a very nice house for less than $200,000 and have a nice, modest family (the way thy should be BTW)

  13. I recently read a statistic that 53% of American wage earners earn less than $30,000.00/ year. The ’08 recession swept away mostly the good middle wage jobs. Be getting ready for an even more devastating wave because the problems causing the recession were never addressed, just papered over.

    1. Unless the ’08 recession also washed away motivation, too, men will still succeed. If it was easy, everyone would do it. Making good money is not difficult. Placing yourself to make good money is just a matter of planning, not luck. Even skill doesn’t play a significant role. The guy who owns the local auto body shop seems mildly retarded to me, and yet he’s got a million dollar house.

      1. Quote: ” Placing yourself to make good money is just a matter of planning, not luck”
        Anybody who is successful and who is honest will tell you there is some degree of luck factor. I have a colleague in europe who made millions in an advertising venture tell me that luck has a bearing. Even Richard Branson of the Virgin empire stated that luck plays a role.
        I agree that good planning is essential, but even with good planning is no garantee.

        1. If you’re careful enough, luck doesn’t have to play much of a role. It’s always there, I suppose- any one of us could have a heart attack at any moment… and a highly conservative career path will tamp down on wild success in favor of modest gains, but there’s something to be said for modest gains, too.

        2. Yeah I agree that at least good planning can at least make luck a higher likelyhood.

        3. Luck is often nothing more than opportunity meeting preparation. Still the opportunity has to arrive, and we can’t force it.

      2. “Making good money is not difficult.”
        For who?
        I work my ass off to break six figures in a high pressure, highly technical career. If it was easy I’d be making minimum wage.

  14. Australian version: Triple the house pricing, double the living costs, add half again to the wages.

    1. You guys also have negative gearing as a tax abatement strategy. Quite the clever lot for a bunch of ex-convicts wouldn’t ya say?

      1. We are quite good-looking too.
        Mind you, negative gearing has produced so many over-excited investment property owners that house prices are massively overvalued and unaffordable to anyone under 40. Anyone who thinks the American dream is out of reach, forget about Australia.

        1. I thought as long as you where willing to live away from the coast land was dirt cheap, while the only people under 40 that can afford to live on the coast are 3rd world non working refugees.

  15. Men’s American dream is more like a cabin by a lake, a 1,000 hp pickup truck & a gourmet nymphomaniac that drops by on weekends.

    1. Every rednecks and nignogs dream lol A pickup truck? What the hell are you going to do with that? A Rover is fine for the country. And rich gourmet diets are not suitable for a peasant’s digestion, it will make you ill. Negroes will get explosive diarrhoea on a diet like that. Melons and some collard greens are fine for them.

      1. Mr. Big, I’m not sure you realize just how exceptionally regular a diet of melons & collard greens would make one.

        1. It is essential for the negro to eat a west African diet in the US and the reason is very simple.The #1 killer is heart disease (hypertension etc) with cancer a distant 2nd. Negroes evolved in a hot climate and their bodies conserve sodium.If you’ve even been working out in the really hot summer sun and sweating a lot you may have to take salt pills or you will get ill. Negroes have adapted to this and don’t lose as much sodium when they sweat a lot. But higher levels are associated with hypertension and are bad for you. So they need a lower sodium diet with a lot of watermelons and things of that nature with fluid to keep from getting high levels of sodium which leads to heart conditions.Eating salty MickyD’s crap is very bad for them. Snowmen can survive on almost anything and have during the thousands of years of the Ice Age.Caucasians are the most adaptable.

    2. Sounds good to me. Hunting and fishing all day, sitting on the patio watching the sun set over the water. What’s not to like?

    3. I don’t believe that the average extroverted American man’s dream is so lone. And I bet a lot of older men would prefer near-nightly snuggling and physical affection to crazy weekend sex. Suburbia has a lot of lifestyle pluses and $150,000 houses exist.

  16. A couple problems with your analysis
    1) You are listing the median home price of new constructions. These homes will have near zero maintenance for 10-15 years and no remodel costs as they are brand new. They are also substantially more expensive than the median home sale price which includes all the previously owned units which are what most people end up buying.
    2) Unless you are both working full time, there is no way a child costs anywhere near $12k a year except in about 4 metro areas.

  17. Just learn to say “no” to your woman.
    Drop her if she can’t take no or an answer: she doesn’t respect you. You should know this about her after a few dates.
    Things don’t have to be so expensive, it is your weakness that is making them expensive. Hell, the above quoted house is cheaper than a private university college degree.

    1. Things don’t have to be so expensive, it is your weakness that is making them expensive.

    2. Its truly amazing how much more into you a girl is when she knows you are willing and able to drop her.

      1. Never to be forgotten, under any circumstances. It’s almost never a mistake to drop a woman.

  18. If you want to buy a house within your means, buy it on a 10-20 year mortgage instead of a 30.
    If you want to know who owns the house try kicking your wife and kids out of a room you want to use. If they comply, congrats the house is yours. If you have a man cave, you are just borrowing space in your wife’s house and your balls are probably somewhere in her jewelry box.

    1. Amortize over 30 years, but make payments as if it was a 20-year mortgage, you’ll save so much interest in the long run

    2. The trick is to have a REAL man cave somewhere up in the woods by the mountains. Calling your heated and lit basement a man cave is an insult to our hairy simian ancestors.

    3. Fuck man caves. We fucking built civilization and women and children would be squatting in caves if we had not. The “Man cave” is a fucking insult. Anybody making the mistake of using that term around me gets corrected.

    1. This is very true. My wife is foreign; when I was making 100k a year, she couldn’t grasp that we weren’t yet middle class (I was unloading debt at the time). Once my income:debt ratio was favorable and I broke 130k, THEN we hit middle class. Sort of.
      It’s not as though that’s even all that difficult. You plan out what you will do when you’re in your late teens, with the help of your father. Well, that pretty much knocks out about 70% of young men now, I suppose. The weaker fathers give up when teen boys refuse to choose a path. Thank God, Buddha and Vishnu that my father hammered the idea that i needed to control my own future into me. Any parent who doesn’t do that, who accepts “I don’t know what I want to do” should be beaten until they learn to be a patriarch.

      1. “You plan out what you will do when you’re in your late teens, with the help of your father. Well, that pretty much knocks out about 70% of young men now, I suppose.”
        Exactly. How many young men have a Father to guide him, in a positive direction.

  19. This article hits the nail with the hammer. I would be happy as long as wherever I live has a space where I can be alone to reflect, relax and unwind

    1. No, you won’t. The nicer homeless shelters give you that. Facing the prospect of an aging body when you start to wake up with pain or encounter illness, your priorities, virtually everything, will change. Namaste in one hand, shit in the other. Guess which one fills up first?

      1. You misunderstood what I was attempting to say. Just because I would be happy with my own space doesn’t mean I would be happy with a shitty one. I just won’t need the all excess material goods to make my life happy. I get what I need to keep healthy and improve my life. An over-sized house doesn’t do that and the American dream doesn’t do that which is what the article addressed.

  20. As others have said, the woman in a modern marriage isn’t in love with the guy in the marriage; she’s in love with the concept OF the marriage – the house, the kids, etc. You’re just the provider at best, or the accessory at worst.

    1. You’re implying that spousal love is the glue in the marriage. It ain’t. Duty, honor, devotion and loyalty are the foundation of the marriage. Love is the effect, not the cause. People don’t seem to learn that anymore, going in, and set themselves up for failure. It isn’t just the broads who contribute to an environment of presumed failure in modern marriage. Modern Western culture creates an infantilized idealistic view of marriage. I happen to believe that naive men smarten up a lot faster than women do, myself, which is why we have time to come to grips with reality, while women live in denial until the EatPrayLove moment causes them to blow up their lives. How in the name of Sting’s Flying Metal Codpiece from Dune can anyone have a happy marriage if they go in with unrealistic expectations?

  21. Be careful what you wish for. I’ve got that house in suburbia and I work from a home office. If you are looking for excitement, then this is not the place for you.
    I happen to live across the street from a park and all day it’s just a bunch of Mommy’s pushing their strollers around while they focus all of their attention to their phones and texting. Boring…

  22. MGTOW already know the -real- American Dream… and they’re living it, much to many women’s dismay and annoyance.

  23. I am still working on my american dream out in the suburbs… the WAY suburbs. A little place about 80 miles away from civilization, in the desert, a couple of shipping containers stacked atop each other half buried, already insulated, powered, and air-conditioned, already got the plastic greenhouse up, Still got a ways to go until I can move myself and my slaves in, and need to find a better water supply, but it’s MY dream, and it’s a hell of a lot cheaper than suburbia (did you know that in parts of Utah land goes for around 10k an acre?)

    1. Today’s suburbs are the next generation’s edge cities. I grew up in a ‘burb with 30,000 people. There are 200,000 there now.

      1. Yes, but then you’d have 10 acres of CALIFORNIA.
        As Viir says, some bargains come with too high a price.

  24. “It’s best to circumvent the whole thing by not even dating an American woman with the intention of marriage.
    Remember that bad financial decisions affect the trajectory of your life. Money provides opportunities: to travel, to invest, and more importantly, to fund YOUR dreams, not HER dreams.
    Well freaking said! Enough with the pussy-worshipping, gynocentric bullshit.

  25. Great article. I started getting a sense for what much of the article is point out, way back in the late 1990s. It seemed very cut and dry: everybody brainlessly goes to college. Everybody brainlessly finishes college. Everybody brainlessly gets a job. Everybody brainlessly gets married. Everybody brainlessly gets the house and 2.7 kids. Everybody brainlessly tolerates the wife putting on 80 lbs to birth an 8 lb baby and keeps 72 lbs permanently. Everybody brainlessly accepts women running the whole show.
    I started asking “Why?” The writing was on the wall back then. The think tanks have done their job well. It’s no accident, IMO, that “The Matrix” came out in 1999. Another film of that time was “Office Space”, which was created by the same guy who made “Idiocracy”. I LIVED the movie plot of “Office Space”.
    So the article is sound, and it’s a BETA thing mainly to meekly go and get her the house because she’s programmed to want that, have kids because she’s programmed to want that. Work 6 days paying for HER SUV because she’s programmed to want that. Basically become a beta slave because she’s programmed to expect that. And then perpetuate the disease because the beta is programmed to do that.
    Let it all collapse.

      1. I’m so white (How white am I?) I’m so white, when ghosts come to haunt my house, they say “there goes the neighborhood”.

        1. Your so white when ghost come to haunt your house they say forget it buddies, looks like there is already ghost haunting that house.

    1. My older brothers brainlessly did all of that. Life is VERY hard for them now. Poor bastards. It didn’t have to be this way.

  26. Does the author have a mortgage or kids? I have both.
    I bought a house three years ago, with twenty percent down, amortized over 30 years, at a rock bottom variable interest rate of prime -0.85%. I make bi weekly payments and pay as if I had amortized over twenty years. With some improvements I did myself, paying down my principle and appreciation of houses in the area I live I am easily up $100 -125K, I have slayed the amount of interest I would have had to pay in the future, and aside from a few weekends of time and effort, it’s been pretty much passive. That’s a sweet hundred grand for not doing too much, and it’s all Tax free when I decide to sell. I can be mortgage free in ten years without being house poor in the interim.
    As for kids, no fucking way they cost two grand a piece, per month. Are they feeding their kids gold-plated food?
    Short answer: rule your money don’t let it rule you. If you are smart, you’ll do fine with both houses and kids.

  27. It always amazes me how many married guy friends tell me, ex post facto, how much they always wanted a wife, children and suburban house before they got married. Which I always found odd, because I have known some of these men for many years and over the course of a great many discussions about our deepest desires and aspirations, this version of the “American Dream” never once came up. There was plenty of talk of getting laid, playing sports, writing music, arguing great ideas, but no talk of picket fences and baby diapers that I can ever recall having. Ironically, the one male friend I have that I do remember having such wishes is, like me, still unmarried at 45. While he is not quite red pill yet, he is at least beginning to suspect that we have all been sold a bill of goods and that perhaps his failure to find a suitable wife at this point is not such a bad thing after all.

    1. Same here-I know guys that never even mentioned getting married and having kids and in fact, would comment on how great it was to not have to deal with what other married guys have. The bang, they get hitched and breed…I’d tell you more but I don’t see them anymore

    2. People grow, and change. That’s life. Our priorities and desires can change every time someone new comes into our lives, not just in getting married.
      But yeah, you’re correct. In my 20’s, I’d have put a gun in my mouth before saddling myself with a kid and a mortgage. At age 25, I could navigate from my base to the local whorehouse anywhere in the world. Having some success, increased stability and discovering that I wanted kids (meeting my wife made that change. Noone else ever inspired anything like that before) changed all that. I want my kids to have what I had growing up, and maybe a little more, too. It could all blow up tomorrow, and my kids will have made it all worth it. THAT is the power of the biological imperative. It’s insanely powerful. And absolutely worth giving in to, for me, anyhow.

      1. Only dated one girl–almost twenty years ago–that I would have even considered starting a family with. (Twenty years later and she’s a fit and still very attractive happily married mother of four, so at least my instincts are good). But out of the dozens of other women I have dated, none of the rest seemed to me like good bets for marriage/motherhood–and time has shown this instinct to have been true as well. Modern marriage is just too much of a gamble and requires too much compromise (where compromise = doing shit that she wants without much in the way of reciprocity). No thanks–my biological imperative is satisfied by temporarily banging a variety of women. Nesting seems to be an impulse that I’ve never really experienced.

        1. Yeah, that impulse seems like it’s just as much responsive as instinctual. I don’t think the idea of a ticking biological clock works for men as it does for women.

    3. True story: when I decided I wnated a wife I said so, dropped out of the game scene and ot one. Yeah, it took forever to find one to my liking, ut I went for it and got what I wanted. Most guys marry a girlfiend, end up with a wife and then justify getting her everything she wants afterwards by pretending they want it too.

  28. This is a really crappy post. The math is horribly misinformed, at best, and at worst, the stats don’t reflect reality. This, to me, represents a fabulous summation of the Millenial generation’s abysmally low horizon when it comes to information about the real world.
    Real quick: Mortgages come in many forms. Outside of urban centers, alternative finances are available. Different sourcing, different standards. The author failed miserably to explore the many, many ways to responsibly finance a home.
    I’m a cheap prick, to be sure. I busted my balls in college and in my 20’s. Bought 4 acres of land in a suburban/rural edge community, and this had a beat-up old WWII-era house on it. Got it for 110k (This is in Eastern MA, one of the more expensive areas to live in the US). Finished paying for that by the time I finished my military commitment (ROTC paid for college, so I only had 15k in loans). After I got established at work and the land was paid, I gutted the house myself, and took out a $130,000 construction loan using the equity on the land. Redid the whole house, inside and out. 2 years later, I sold 1 acre of my yard for 100k, (undeveloped build-able land in the Northeast appreciates faster than land with existing houses on it) ,paid off most of the loan, and took out another $150,000 construction loan, and doubled the size of my house. So, at age 32, I had a 3,200 sq ft. house with a $900 a month note. Salary at the time was just over 100k/yr, so that was nothing. Heat is expensive, but not that bad.
    I married a nice younger Brazilian girl (my housecleaner, lol) and we have a couple of young kids now.
    My father taught me about where to buy land, how to finance it, and when to actually settle down to get married, if at all (after buying a home, and after a LONG courtship to a Catholic girl who comes from a 2-parent family with a long tradition of their women getting pregnant every time they wash their husband’s underwear). Having a father who can guide you through the process of establishing yourself makes it a lot less daunting.
    Now, with that said, I have to ask: what if you CAN have the things you want? What if you are smart enough or have had the mentoring to know to work 80-90 hours a week in your 20’s, take on only modest debt, and proactively build a life you enjoy, rather than to go with the flow?
    Am I bragging? Little bit, maybe. Other than getting laid and drinking, I killed myself when I was in my 20’s while friends were out fucking the dog and spending money they didn’t have. My father pushed me to put $25 a week into mutual funds from the time I was 18. That money, which I stopped paying last year (20 years), is around $200,000 now, and when it hits $250,000 2-3 years from now, I’m buying a nice used 50′ boat- somewhere around $450,000, and hiring a crew to make it available for charter in the Caribbean. Nice way to spend 3 weeks with the fam in the winter, and I should be able to charter it out for at least 30 weeks a year to pay for itself within 5 years.
    How did I know to do this? My father.
    So what’s wrong that Millenials are so afraid of taking little risks and playing on a longer timeline? Have they transcended materialism so completely that they eschew the idea of having modest material wealth in exchange for hard work and careful planning?
    I don’t think so. I think they’re young. I think they’re young, lost and afraid. I’m pretty sure that people facing the prospect of having only 25 more good working years don’t want to be riding a fucking bicycle to work. When the Millenials hit 40, maybe some of them will join the herd a little bit, and see if they can beat the odds. Maybe if they had intact families and the guidance of a father it wouldn’t be such a stretch of the imagination.

    1. An excellent example of how to make debt work for you, not all debt is bad debt. Although I still try to hold to what Polonius told Laertes, “never a borrower or a lender be”.

    2. So you killed yourself in your 20’s so you can now have bragging rights.
      Minimalism is the way to go.

      1. He sounds like he has his shit together, but he also sounds like he’s consumed by money. Always throwing out figures about his income.
        To each their own. I prefer a simple,low stress life.

  29. you think 337300 is bad? I live in Hong Kong, the second most expensive city (in terms of real estate) in the world. for 1m USD you can barely buy a toilet. its at least 1000 USD sq feet.

    1. 1000 usd sqf? Great price! You dont know any badness. In warsaw poland, good location, good standard will cost you 500 USD/ sqfeet. My oh my, of course the city is FAR, FAR, VERY FAR away in any term from HK. Salaries? 700 usd net of taxes, try to make a living there, brothers!
      And chicks all want the same LV bags here.
      Nuff said.

    2. Doesn’t the government in Hong Kong technically own all the land too? Oh man, 1000 per sq feet sounds insane for a lease…

  30. New homes are built to satisfy women. HUGE closets, tiny yards, houses built right on top of each other, no basements, no privacy, no thanks. Instead find a brick ranch in the well kept older neighborhoods with large yards, mature trees, privacy and a basement. She will NOT want to live in this house, but YOU will.

    1. Holy shit you said it. I have to lay plastic down on the passenger seat of my car every time I pass by the gated communities in my town. My wife leaves snail trails all over the place at the idea of not needing a ride-on lawnmower. If the neighbor farts, I don’t want to be close enough to smell it.

      1. Jesus, so they also stopped wearing panties in public. No wonder the bench at my local bus stop was always so slippery. And I thought it was simply rainwater from a leaking roof. But now I know…

    2. Meh, I think I would still prefer to just chuck the lawn all together. I either want a city house or a very small garden. Who gives a shit about a lawn? They are a waste of space…

  31. I came to this realization myself not too long ago. Great to see an article on this topic.

  32. You want my advice? Buy yourself a sailboat. For under $100,000 you can get one hell of a seaworthy, tough, and comfortable boat. Then, you can go anywhere in the world, at your leisure, and not have the shadow of interminable debt hanging over your head.

      1. I think you watch too much tv. There is no experience quite as invigorating as that of sailing.

        1. BOAT means Break Out Another Thousand, but, still, I am with Doc here. I live on a boat, it’s the best.

    1. Sounds fun, but you know what they say about boats? The two best days of boat ownership are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.
      Here is some advice. If it flies, floats, or fucks…rent it.

      1. Isn’t there one like this? B.O.A.T—Be Out Another Thousand or something. Boats drain people of money or so I’ve heard. Washing, maintenance, docking fees, repairs both major and minor. It’s a constant cash drain.

      2. Very true… If you buy any old hunk-o-junk. Any boat worth her salt will take you to the ends of the world and back with minimal work. A little bit of know-how is all it takes. Believe me, I’ve been sailing all my life.

  33. I believe the author MajorStyles was making the point that IF you follow the path of the “typical” American woman’s dream, while letting her pussy blind you in the typical beta-blue fashion “most” guys do, this is what you can expect your financial prison cell to look like.
    I was told in my mid 20s by my lawyer, when I opened my first Sub-Chapter S LLC: “Well at your age guys do 1 of 2 or 3 things. They typically either go into grad school and saddle up a lot of school debt, settle down and buy a house, or open a business… with the latter two being the most common.” Mind you this was 15 years ago.
    What many people seem to forget is MOST guys don’t have a father with a red-pill background teaching them modernized, up-to-date, rights and wrongs re. women, business, finances, etc. My dad was not in my area of business, nor in business at all, he was an educator. The latent effects of 9/11 eventually crumbled my business in 2004, I was making 6 figures and have since had to completely rebuild my life from scratch.
    The only problem that occurred during my rebound is my sperm toilet refused to flush, so we had a kid. Sure I love my kid and am actively part of her life. The downfall is it’s tied me to the mid-west which sucks donkey balls, and believe me I was dumb enough to get sold on HER American dream for a brief moment. The silver lining is her family is extremely wealthy, the shitter is, I’m paying a bitch child support who in 7 years will start receiving trust fund payments like a lottery winner. Sickening, but could be worse by far.

  34. Or y’know, if you’re hellbent on marrying just marry a female that’s happy to rent, knows how to budget and doesn’t fall for marketing scams. Or, easier, one that’s obedient so it doesn’t fucking matter how thick or selfish she is.

  35. Man…I’m finally getting why most everyone here is so down on life in America. Despite all your claims to alpha male status, most of the comments are clearly from beta-bitches, owned by the system and feeling helpless to do anything about it. If you had a better understanding of personal finance, it wouldn’t seem nearly so daunting.
    Here’s the basis of it: leverage leverage leverage. It’s risky, but it’s exactly how you crawl up out of the swamp of financial dependency. People who dont understand will sneer that “the bank owns your house” but thats bullshit. They own your house if you fail to make the payments. If you DO make the payments, you put up only a small fraction of the cost, but reap ALL the reward. Put $15,000 down on a $300k house with conforming first time buyer fannie mae loan, and if it goes up 10% you just made a 200% return on your $15k. Try finding that kind of yield in ANY other investment.
    Here’s my story (not bragging, just telling it how it can be if you don’t like the idea of wage slavery OR the idea of giving up on the American dream)
    2001: Bought my first house at 26 for $118k. Total piece of shit, crumbling from the inside out, but it qualified for a fannie mae 3% down loan. Spent 4 years gutting it and rebuilding. Fucked up all kinds of stuff, did a million things wrong, but in the end got it done and had a bunch of tools and a bunch of skills I didnt have to begin with. Sold in 2005 for $250k.
    Took cash, bought raw land for $115k, built a nice little craftsman for another $250k with a construction loan. Now I have an acre of dirt with a decent house, but Rome wasn’t built in a day. Live in that until 2009, working all the time to make it better: shop, garage, landscaping etc. Sell that for $490k. Not much cash left over, since these are the darkest days of the meltdown, but just enough to stay solvent.
    Here’s where the scary part comes in: I find a huge project that’s stalled out in Marin Co. California. Spec developer got over-extended on a luxury project and got his financing yanked. I know the area is gold, but the buy in is a heart stopper: $850k for a half acre with a foundation and permits to build a huge fucking Spanish style villa. 4000 sqft, pool, guest house, the whole shooting match. So I sack up and get private hard money loan for it. These loans are available pretty much anywhere, your mortgage broker will put you in touch with the right guys. Downside: they’re brutally expensive, 3 points, 8% apr, and if you fuck up, you’ll probably have your legs broken.
    Long story short, I get the place built with a year of back breaking work, ulcer forming stress, and 16 hour days. But it sells in 2011 for almost $2 million. That one turned a profit of about $600k for my cash input of less than $100k. We turn around and buy a beat up rancher right down the street for $800k, now I have the cheapest house in the nicest neighborhood, and a reasonable mortgage of $300k. Market booms again in the last few years and we are golden…place appraises last year for $1.3M.
    39 years old, never made more than $60k a year in my life, and I’m worth a million bucks. THAT is the American dream, kids.
    You can check out of it, as so many here suggest, getting a tiny apartment, with old furniture, and a clapped out car, but is that how you want to spend your life? A nice house and nice things aren’t just for your chick, and for the average guy, real estate is the closest thing you can find to a good investment that you can improve with your own blood sweat and tears.

    1. I haven’t heard of too many guys doing that in the last 20 years, but good for you. My own gains were modest, as I’ve got a decent job, and my goal for moving up in housing was to do so while keeping low overhead to keep the risk to a minimum. Nice to hear about someone aiming high and hitting the mark.

      1. Ive been lucky, for sure. I’ve also worked an unsustainable schedule for the last 14 years…full time day job and essentially full time construction job. Mostly I guess Ive been lucky with the wife. She has picked up the slack with the kids, worked her own full time career, kept our books straight, made sure the bills are paid and not been a nagging cunt (OK mostly not been a nagging cunt)
        If she truly was an indolent layabout who put on 60 lbs with the kids then never lost them, and bitched about the life she “deserved”, I’d probably want to eat a gun too.

        1. I know just what you mean. I worked enough in my 20’s to make my reservist weekends seem like a vacation (OK, for naval officers, it’s really not that bad, either. Great way to pay for your cars and basic healthcare). Now that I’m 40, I’m slowing down to enjoy time with my kids, especially now that they’re all in double digits. My wife’s a stay-at-home mom, though, which is another thing I never imagined I’d end up having, but it worked out better, as we didn’t meet until I had already established myself.

    2. So the American Dream means having luck in real estate markets, painstaklingly acquiring the knowledge to be a home construction expert, working ungodly hours leading to bad health, and being lucky enough to have a fully supportive wife?
      Might as well play the lottery. Lol. Minimalism is the way to go.

      1. Well, partly, but not exactly. My point was that real estate is one of the few areas where an average guy, with average skills like myself, can move up the ladder. I know the idea of a low expense/low income life seems sweet in your 20’s, but you gotta extrapolate that out to your 50’s where sure as shit we all end up. The 50 something has exactly 1 thing to offer hot 20 something trim: resources. So you gotta climb the ladder one way or another.
        We are left with only a few ways to do that. Even a law or Med degree is no guarantee of success.The stock market, IMO, is totally rigged against the small trader, in favor of juggernauts with flash trading algorithms and million dollar servers. Try to get ahead with a Schwab or etrade account, you’ll get mauled.
        Real estate, on the other hand, always has value, so its one of the few assets that will always have a liquid financing market to support the average investor (you and I). Even in the worst part of the meltdown, in the worst areas of the country (Las Vegas, Miami, and Phoenix), the worst off properties lost only about 50% of their value, compared to 100% total loss if you had stock in Bear Stearns or Lehman. Theres no absolute reason to liquidate a property unless you have also lost your income, too many people just saw “underwater” and walked, which is ridiculous. Every one of those markets is back above their pre-crash values.
        The point is, I wasn’t particularly smart, or particularly lucky, I was just dogged and fucking determined to not be a victim

  36. Make your own American Dream. You dont have to resign yourself to the cookie cutter image that’s been shoved down our throats for the past 60+ years. It needs some redefinition at this point-the world has changed and one size doesn’t fit all. In my mind, the American dream is being captain of my own ship.

  37. The true American dream resulted in the Revolutionary War, a new country, new form of government, and a deep rooted connection to God who provides men with freedom and inalienable rights. That kind of dream costs blood and sacrifice.
    It didn’t take long for the bankers to create a new dream that depended on them for financing at usurious interest rates. And just about every war and conflict since 1812 has kept the American dream alive by keeping the American guberment and her citizens in debt.
    Homes, cars, education, and lifestyle are now commodities for all to purchase and finance, keeping the buyer enslaved to the bankers who swapped one dream and reality for their nightmare.
    A home, wife and kids is a 30-year financial prison sentence, perhaps even a life sentence. If you violate the rules of that incarceration you’re at risk to see the inside of a real jail. Everything about the American dream is a bad acid trip at best. You gotta stop dropping LSD to see clearly. I hear there’s some red pill you can take to shake the dependency and see clearly again.

  38. 5. She is not happy because she want to go out and travel and buy a 2000$ designer Louis Viton bags … You end-up discovering that she cheat on you because she is not satisfied of her life …and its all your fault.
    6. You have to pay for her divorce and finance her dream life for the next 15 years while she start the same pattern all over again with another man …. while you are broke and your kids are suffering from the situation.

  39. I have a instant family that clawed at me fir the American dream, I definately do not make 50,000.00 a year, but I have over 50,000.00 in debt.

  40. Oh man. Most of my buddies are settling down with their fat and annoying post-wall GFs and wives, buying a house with no money down and I just can’t believe how they walk in these giant bear traps with their eyes wide open. Some of them even think it’s a good investment…..
    I’m like the last of Mohicans in my crew from back in the day; mid-thirties, my own boss, in the best shape of my life, traveling the world, no (ex) wife, no kids and smashing different girls on the reg… that’s how we do. I’ve been living like this for the last four years but discovered the manosphere a couple of months ago. It was quite cathartic realizing I wasn’t ‘weird’ because that’s how a lot of people feel about me. Y’all helped me connect the dots in my own life, and for this I am very grateful.
    But I get a sense that some of my friends are jealous. But even though I try and ease these Betas into swallowing the Red Pill, but it’s almost like they are scared of all this opportunity out there. I openly question their decisions with valid points and in a diplomatic manner but to no avail. It’s fuckin’ frustrating. It’s baffles me how things just didn’t chance at all after the 2008 ‘crash’ and people just got back to consuming and buying overpriced heaps of brick.
    I’m from over-regulated post-feudal Euroland, but I’ve lived in the US and still visit. To me the American Dream has always been appealing: ‘Be All You Can Be’. Suburbia is almost like the opposite of that.

    1. Nothing weird about that lifestyle-I enjoy a similar one. The herd will try and convince you that you’re odd, need to “man-up”, and other epithets to get you to fall in line. As long as you’re content with your lifestyle, fuck em. And if anyone asks “why aren’t you married/why don’t you have kids?” simply reply, “Just lucky I guess.”

    2. I know the feeling of being ‘weird’ in the USA just because I’m not miserable. I live overseas but come home to visit, of course. With good friends it’s a cool situation, most ended up divorced and openly praising/admiring my ability to dodge the great mistake. But the people that cause problems and take cuts are friends of friends types, distant cousins, various acquaintances. You become a lightning rod for their angst. They can use you to vent off some of their regret which they hardly recognize as such. Basically it becomes obvious what a high percentage of men in the USA hate their lives without even realizing there were other options. They suckle their beers whenever their wife lets them and watch ball, calling that ‘life’, never having opened their mind to anything else. I took off for foreign countries. So a guy like me comes along and I think they just have this, “Hey, man. We’re miserable. Why did you get to skip out on it?” Like how a WW2 vet who lost a leg would look at a draft-dodger of that era. Miserable idiots working like dogs for their 220 pound wives are such martyrs. It never occurs to them that they made a huge mistake and I simply was smart enough not to. I was decent to women when I was younger too, so naturally that is about as attractive as having dog crap smeared across your shirt. So the decision to avoid marriage and take off wasn’t all mine. American women bitchiness helped, so I respect them for that. Kind of like rattlesnakes, just letting you know that you need to get lost and that you’ve been warned.

  41. One of the primary reasons a house averages 337, 000 is that people are paying a premium to escape the ghetto/barrio, otherwise cheaper housing would be available. You can add major commuter and vehicle maintenance costs to the tally.

  42. Good article. I got suckered into (her) American Dream myself. This is going back twenty years ago, long before the ‘sphere was a twinkle in anyone’s eye. However, having become ‘spherical in the last couple of years, I recognize it now for the lie that it is. Basically you become a worker drone (or a battery – to use the Matrix analogy) for her, the kids, and the State. There is not much I can do anymore for myself, but I have to try my hardest to make sure that my son doesn’t fall for the same lies.

  43. Articles like this represent the pinnacle of what ROK can and should be. Well done.

  44. Who would really want that anyway. Sure if a business idea works out and you can afford to support the wife she may give you companionship and children. But imagine the constant stress of keeping up appearances. Id much rather my share house, a good book, keeping fit, learning new languages, travelling and every so often getting some slut to drain my nuts for me.

  45. Good article with a lot of truth to it. Married with 2 kids here and a house in the ‘burbs. Can’t stand the suburbs. People here have about as much personality as a telephone pole. But, so long as my kids are of school age, there aren’t a lot of alternatives. School districts further into the city are either too ritzy or total crap. The sticks are great to visit, but I sure as hell don’t want to live there. Been there and done that already. Funny thing is, though, a lot of these guys out here in the ‘burbs seem to like it. Don’t see what’s so great about spending the weekend doing fucking yard work or going to church that’s a country club in disguise. But to each his own.

    1. For me, it’s because I get to focus on my family, on the actual nuclear family. One of the best ways to appreciate that is to live without it, which is what happens when I travel for work- I see the most and least beautiful parts of the world, and the people that infest such places, and holy shit I like the burbs more after.
      I suspect that, all things being equal, a stable suburban lifestyle produces happier kids compared to, say, cooking up a batch of meth in a rural area, or having to live in a city with the undesirables all around you. Nothing starts a day off better than ambulance sirens, homeless, having to spend 20 minutes finding somewhere to park your car and listening to some black lowlife’s ghetto sled with an amped up bass as it drives by, right?
      I dunno, for me, I life the suburbs. My neighbors don’t have time to start shit, and have their own things to focus on, just like me. I’m not some fucking monkey who has to be in a social group to feel validated, I guess.

  46. Article of the year!! I have almost $120K in savings, and I’m not buying SHIT. Saving money like a drug lord, going out 3x a week and Europe 3 times a year…

  47. $340,000 for a decent U.S. surburban home?
    In Sydney, Australia, $340,000 will get you an ok single bedroom apartment (maybe with parking & not in the better suburbs).
    A decent suburban home in Sydney starts at $600,000…!…
    Plus the ideal deposit of 20% still applies for financial matters.
    Good thing I don’t want kids & I’m living life for myself (& my family).

    1. Here’s the thing tho, you can’t compare suburban and major city prices like that.

      1. Those figures are suburban Sydney. The inner city is a fuck load more expensive. Sydney is a shithole anyway, best move would be to not live there.

    2. The whole country ain’t Sydney, however. New York and San Francisco are even more expensive than Sydney.

  48. I agree generally with your conclusions, but I don’t appreciate your playing fast and loose by cherry-picking your data. For one thing, you picked the month (Jan,2014) with the highest price, without noting that the most recent value in that series is about $20K less. Furthermore, you cited AVERAGE, and not MEDIAN price levels. Averages are frequently skewed by a small number of extremely expensive homes, while the median value is the midpoint at which half of homes cost more and the other half cost less.
    More troubling is your reference only to NEW homes, which, obviously, are going to cost more, depending on location and amenities.

  49. True, but you still need somewhere to live. Renting is only good if you are saving those thousands per month, most don’t. They blow it away. Renting when you are old, is no fun if you haven’t saved that capital…I wish the average house was 337k, what a bargain. Here in my country, the average one bedroom dog box is 400k plus (on a bad day)…,
    If you can find a nice female that isn’t a slut or a loon in the head, marriage and family is still a good thing for an ageing man after 35. Hooking up with sluts, gets very tiring after a while, plus they sap/suck all your energy. I guess, better alone than settling, is always a better option than hooking up with some slag who cleans you out of house and home. Still, if you do have a chance to get one of those gems, grab with both hands and go live happily ever after.

  50. Gosh damn it… the crypto-socialists are really fucking up this site. Whoever is the content editor you need to wake up to this subversion. The values of Leftism and Masculinity do not comport. Trashing the American Dream, promoting Monarchy/Feudalism (in the comment section), wishing for the end of the Republican party, etc are all the machinations of anti-patriarchists that have no respect for the inalienable rights of Man. There’s not a corner of the net that isn’t targeted by these castrati. Seriously, fuck you MajorStyles.

    1. The guy only trashed ONE small part of the supposed american dream.
      He didn’t touch hard work and upwards social mobility, which is the basic gist of the american dream.

  51. American dream is dead, a man who makes $70k a year will only qualify for a mortgage in the low 200k in my area. This is almost 50% more than the average household income. Yet in my pappis day, only the man worked and it as enough to raise 4-6 kids with no second income from the wife.
    American dream of today would be to marry some hot rich foreign girl who pays for all your shit. Maybe when you are in your 50s, marry one of those ex-models or ex-famous chicks with some money and not too bad looks in her 30s. If there is a divorce you get more money, if not you might get a reasonable woman.

  52. Right now is also the time to buy real estate though. Houses that use to cost 500k in the atlanta metro are down to the 130k price range. I am talking 4-5-6 bedroom houses, these things use to be called mansions. I know detroit also looks bad now, but consider picking up a mansion there, they are going for the 50k range. Sure it might not payoff in 5 or 10 years, but that could be your retirement package. In 20 or 30 years it will probably turn around. And when it does you will be rich when you buy a house like this for 200k and the market turns around

      1. That is actually a 5000+ sq ft house. In a good market it goes for ovder a milion.

    1. I have never heard of anyone spending $25K in a single day. Are you all fucking millionaires?!?

  53. You forgot to mention the loss of renting
    if you rent for 10 years you lose 120,000$ @ 1000/month, when you buy a house, you get ALL of your money back when you sell it a long with inflation hedged, Inflation is 1.5-2% a year, so that is about 15-20% in 10 years, erasing the 4.3% mortgage interest by half.
    So you lose 120,000 to live in a small box with no basement (apartment), or a 70K downpayment to be in a nice big compound(house) . Renting is the sucker move!
    Though, it is strange that we crave luxury really badly, and once we get it, the time we get it, we are burnt out, and it didn’t make us as happy as we anticipated it would, relax, you’re crappy apartment isn’t making you as miserable as you think. The mentality, “ill be happy once i have this, once i achieve this,” its all a hoax, a rugged lifestyle makes men genetically and mentally tough, luxury weighs us down, we want to make our life “easy” and instead we make ourselves weak because of the ease. You adapt to stress. Richness is not a bank account number, but a noble character, of course, a noble character usually attracts success and money at the same time, But develop your character, that is more important and the money will come slowly in time,

  54. You forgot to mention property tax – throw another 2 to 3 hundred on the pile every month depending. Then there’s the various “insurances” that you must have. And remember the ultimate payoff when you get her used to this kind of lifestyle – you’ll be required *by law* to continue providing it forever or be placed in prison. All she has to do is say she’s unhaaaaapy and the velvet glove is removed to reveal the iron fist of the state.

  55. Excellent article, man.
    The other thing to consider is that owning a house can make you location dependent. So much is changing in such short time that what was once a halfway decent place to live in terms of community and tolerable, fuckable females then becomes a shit-hole on Earth and time to move on. By not having a mortgage one can easily leave for better places assuming there are any left.

  56. 4.3%, compounded annually, doubles every 16 years. (log(2)/log(1.043)).
    Interest is a cost. Over the life of your ownership of the home, you pay X amount interest in total. That minus the amount of capital gains on the house (har!) is how much you have paid to have a house in a nice suburban neighbourhood.
    Of course, these numbers are very, very different if you keep in mind that she gets the house in the (inevitable) divorce, and different again if the judge decides that you need to keep paying the mortgage (it’s fur teh childrunz!).
    Also, this:

  57. The American dream is relevant to the perspective of the dreamer. I compare it to a casino. If you’re smart, you’ll know how much to bet and when to leave. Most of us will have fun while playing but that is a fleeting reality but in the end… The house always wins.

  58. These numbers may be correct in a large city, but an average home in a small town are more like 180K. Nevertheless, it really doesn’t matter how much money is made, it will all find a way to be spent. This article only touches the surface of the married with children life. Baby showers, couples showers, birthdays, book club, happy hour with the girls, day trips to the beach, you name it….. this shit all adds up. My wife and two kids go to Florida every winter for 2 weeks for a “vacation”. I always stress that we should go to Publix and get all the groceries so we don’t have to eat out and save some money. We do that, but then still end up eating out and getting $40 in icecream as well. AS far as a home goes…… f it man. There is not a day that goes by that a room is either getting painted, new floors, a window replaced, new rugs, towels, soap dispenser, scented wax candle smelly thing, shit man, you name it. My monthly Meijer(Walmart) bill is over $1500. We recently got a pool, which needed a path, a pool house, floaties, a new door put on the bathroom so we could walk from the pool directly into the bathroom, which also needed a deck. This is constant……
    There is NEVER an end. Home ownership is the devil and kills you slowly.

    1. I feel you on the never ending expense list…but theres some value to that right? Theres definitely a half-empty/half-full perspective here. I can write a different description to your comment:
      You have your own home with a pool and pool house, which you can afford to upgrade and maintain. You can take your family on vacation to Florida every year, and frequently enjoy eating out, taking the kids for ice cream, and going to parties with friends. Not so bad, ne cest pas?
      We only live once, and money is for spending. Naturally, as dudes, we want to spend it on bad ass motorized toys, fine whiskey, and adventure travel, but nobody gets everything on their christmas wish list.

      1. You have some valid points. There is some good in all the work and pain. This site is mostly filled with guys who were pushed to this way of thinking due to either their inability to get women they are attracted to, or they are social outcasts. I certainly do not think that is a bad thing as social interaction and women are both good only in small amounts. Either way…… I like your positive outlook.

        1. And you can back up your observations about the men on this site with what hard statistics, precisely?

        2. Reading through many of the comments and being a smart ass. Only someone who was hurt by my comments due to truth would question my opinion.

        3. You may be right John. But you shouldn’t make assumptions without any evidence. It can be hurtful.

    2. You know that the odds of your kids, especially any boys, turning out OK are now the barest fraction of what they were 3 years ago, right? It’s not socially acceptable to remind people of that hard truth anymore. But hopefully your dog’s happy. The odds for your kids? Not so much.

      1. I don’t think our society has changed all that much in the last 36 months.

  59. I agree with the article, but some points I question. $330k + may be the “average” cost of a home when you consider states like New York and California thrown into the mix, but the general average cost of a home in a red state is far, far lower. A $300k house here in central Ohio is one hell of a big, nice place that would cost you well over 1.5 million in California. Regional economy is what I’m talking about, and without the soul draining expensive Big Blue states the costs are much more reasonable. This goes for everything else as well.
    That said, the pay is lower so it kind of evens out, I’m just making the case that the numbers aren’t so much important as how much work you do. With that in mind, your article still holds together quite well.
    There are ways out of this trap that don’t necessarily involve living like a hermit, or never settling down with a woman. First off, that car payment, get rid of it. Pay off that motherfucker like nobody’s business *before* you buy a home. Drive it until it is little more than rust held together with duct tape (talking well over 200k miles here), all the while continuing to make a “car payment” to your savings account. By the time the car gives up the ghost and falls apart in your driveway you’ll have far more than enough money to buy your next car for cash. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. If you’re smart you’ll buy a lightly driven “formerly leased” vehicle, which gives you a huge discount on the price tag without any of the bad things that go along with a “Tradin’ Times” used car. End of the day you’ll have a surplus of automotive based cash in the bank that exceeds the cost of a replacement car.
    The home (and I do NOT recommend living in the suburbs) can be tricky. If you’re a vetran/former military you can use a one time benefit of financing through the V.A. and having no down payment on a house whatsoever, although you may still get stuck with a PI. I wouldn’t go this route (although I did, and regretted it) today, but still, it’s there for the taking if you wish.
    There’s a lot of value to moving out to the countryside. If the woman you’re with doesn’t want to, dump her, because you’re right, no sane man wants to, or enjoys, living in suburbia.

    1. Let’s face it, the American dream is mostly the “dream” of white women. I grew up in a rich white suburb and funny how 95 percent of the people there were white? White women are materialistic, shallow, dumb cunts who are driving the consumerist economy. Boycott white women and go only for brown and black women. You’ll make the world a better place.

      1. For a long time I thought I was weird and wrong for not liking my upbringing. I used to be a lot more shy as well. Women were bitches. I grew up in the Americunt “paradise”, the upper middle class predominantly white(85-90%) suburbs. It’s only when I started going for non-white women(mainly asian and indian) did I start being so much more satisfied and happy. Would I marry any of these women? Probably not because of this country’s laws.
        I guess I can to some level understand the whole “keep it in the race” thing, but I don’t agree with it. Why would I want to be miserable just so I can keep it in the race? I should make sacrifices for an empire or country that doesn’t appreciate them? Yeah fucking right. I feel bad for men of all races that marry the white anglo-saxon woman. It’s like shooting yourself in the balls repeatedly. As for all that supporting the nation bullshit, they can shove that up their ass. Just because I was born somewhere(which I had no control over) means I should instantly support it and all of its terrible systems.(big business, government, taxes) Hell no.

  60. Your calculations don’t include property tax or insurance. Assume 2.5% combined between the two, and your monthly nut for the house alone is a bit over $2000.

  61. Reading this just breaks my heart, because all this was me. I believed what all my baby boomer parents and their friends told me. I found a nice woman, started my own business, got the 500K house in the nice part of town, 2 kids that went to private school and best of all my woman didn’t work. I believed that if everyone got what they needed it would EVENTUALLY work out for me. 20 years later I actually DID THE MATH and figured out that the surest way to being miserable is to make everyone else happy. Divorced the woman, sold the business, rented a house for me and my dog and been happier these past three years than the previous 30. In these three years I’ve worked hard at waking up and seeing the world as it is. Living in the real world is hard, but it’s harder living a pretty lie.

    1. die boomer scum
      anyway i troll boomers by telling them their white daughters are filthy whores and black women are much better.

      1. Their white daughters? The Boomers themselves where pretty slutty. They had an average of ELEVEN sexual partners over their lifetimes…

    2. Sorry to disappoint you but I’m a 60-year-old baby boomer in excellent health whose mother lived to be 88 and father lived to be 92, so I plan on living for many more years to come. But if it makes you feel any better, I despise my generation and I look up to the generations that preceded me. My parents raised me in a very strict, traditional Finnish immigrant home here in the U.S. of A.

  62. Buying a house was not the “American Dream”. The dream was that anyone would work hard and be a success. When socialists realized their big government killed that dream they knew they had to replace it, so they harnessed up the hamsters and sold them on the idea of making their husbands debt slaves and sold that as the new dream. As an added bonus it keeps the debt ponzi scheme rolling along.

  63. My ex and I had a cute little house, cozy as fuck and totally paid for.
    It was small enough that I reshingled the roof myself and did all the renovations and repairs. Then she met a pretentious bitch who lived in a $500,000 McMansion in a ritzy suburb and they became best friends; it all went to hell after that.
    She demanded a large house, so we moved into an old Victorian home which I was renting as three flats and wasn’t much of a moneymaker anyway (we converted it back to a single family dwelling). Then she demanded that I try to buy the land behind the house for a large yard (which in retrospect would have been more matrimonial property to negotiate over during the divorce…glad I didn’t fall for it). I said, “No, I like being debt-free,” but I compromised and had a large 2nd floor deck built above the back parking lot.
    Then she wasn’t happy with our paid-for Honda Fit and started demanding a prestigious vehicle. Then the demands for designer clothes. When once we would do things together like get drunk, party at a pub, rent a hotel room, and fuck ourselves silly, our sole “entertainment” soon became couple-socializing with this pretentious bitch and her Mr.NiceGuy idiot husband. We didn’t divorce for these reasons, but I’m glad she gonno!
    It’s a downward spiral. Once a woman gets caught up in this mess she’s doomed. Now my ex has this big old behemoth of a house and she can fucking well pay for its high property taxes and repairs and maintenance herself. Heh heh. When it was both of our incomes life was pretty easy, but she’ll be struggling now that it’s just her alone. She’ll constantly be stressed out with the high costs of keeping that house, while I live in debt-free, low-cost relaxation. I don’t own any major asset which doesn’t produce an income. In fact, when we were renovating the big old house, I said, “Let’s keep the two little flats on the main floor and we can live in the 2nd and 3rd floors practically for free!” But no, as we all know, women aren’t ‘practical’ and she had to have the whole colossal building to herself. I bet she wishes she had that rental income below her now! Heh heh.
    Debt will kill ya!

  64. I think most men do wish to avoid a scenario where their son is gonna get his ass kicked daily, at school, just because he’s White. Which usually means the suburbs…
    Look, everybody is an individual, and every situation is different, but there are a LOT of White (or similarly acculturated) women in the USA who need to be told “NO” more often than they are (which basically means ever).
    Kids, however, don’t cost $2K per month. Closer to $0.2K per month. If this guy thinks they do, he’s a little too affluent to know what the Hell he’s talking about, either.

    1. You’re missing out on ROIs & if they’re born with autism, they can cost over a million.

    2. Do you know why white kids get their asses kicked in cities? Oh yeah, because whites decided to irrationally leave cities and move out to Suburbs.

  65. These numbers seem low. $4,000 a month for a wife, mortgage and 2 kids?
    I spend more than that as a single man per month.

  66. “In over forty years, I never met a man that actually dreamed of owning a home in the suburbs.”
    Did you not have grandparents? Have you never met anyone from a non-gentrified neighborhood in the inner city?

    1. But at the same time, plenty of Suburban places (think Detroit) are pretty fucking ghetto. Nothing about cities make them inherently more ghetto, it’s simply that people got irrationally sucked out into the suburbs.

  67. I don’t understand this “American Dream” thing:
    Apartment in the city > House in the suburbs

  68. If you must own, try Florida, you mostly get California minus the Manute Bol prices.

  69. What the fuck has happened to this place? Seriously? When did this website become a pinko commie rag?
    Lay off the anti American dream/ capitalist sentiment and stick to the core issue- the decay of broads in the west.

    1. Part of the american dream was a wife and two kids, but feminism fucked with that.

    2. Oh yeah, disliking home ownership “anti american”. Yeah dipshit, you realize America has one of the lowest home ownership rates in the world right?

  70. Here is a new American Dream. Get a fixup and make your women help you fix it. They love to paint.

  71. Quiet a bit of everyone’s income is eaten up by the taxes followed by inflation. No wonder there is no American dream anymore. Plus, even if you had a job that paid $75k, how long before the corporate bean counters tell you ‘see ya’ and hire the H-1B for less money?

    1. Who says it’s a bad thing? The American dream is dead, GOOD! That means that there is no longer even a possibility of us becoming slaves to women, because we simply cannot financially afford such slavery!
      Praise the Global Elite, for they have set men free!
      Now, you can go to Africa or a country of brown women and get them easily because we are still considered as “rich” in their eyes. The Elite has set us free from the tyranny of white women, as brown women are the only option anymore!

    2. The American thing is a bad thing. What is good about it? Why would people want to live out in the Suburbs?

  72. My husband and I live in a large Canadian city. We rent a 2 bedroom apartment in a luxury building; over 1,000 square feet for two adults and a cat is more than enough for us. Neither of us have any desire to live in the boring suburbs and the average home in our city costs nearly 1 million dollars. We are a permanently childfree couple and we enjoy restaurants, theatre and minibreaks in wine country. It’s a beautiful life!
    Maybe one of the reasons we have a happy marriage is I am not a typical North American woman. I never wanted a big wedding when we got married and I never expected my husband to buy a huge home which would eat all of our money. I see so many young couples who can’t even buy new shirts because their lives are so expensive. On my deathbed, I will remember all of the romantic trips and meals I had with my husband, rather than how big or expensive our place was. It is better to spend money on experiences rather than things.

  73. I married a Mexican, when there were a few good Mexican women out there. Nowadays I probably go to the Philippines or China or maybe South Korea.

  74. “Financially, the “American Dream” is a man’s nightmare. It’s far too
    expensive. So it’s best to circumvent the whole thing by not even dating
    an American woman with the intention of marriage.”
    Considering the majority of men, most notably alpha males, get married, have children, and buy a home–you know, act like an adult–your advice is outlier material.

    1. “most notably alpha males, get married, have children, and buy a home–you know, act like an adult”
      Haha, stupid feminist shaming language.
      You know who does this: ignorant slave minded people. Especially the get married and buy a home part.

    2. Buying a home in the Suburbs is useless though. It costs almost as much upfront on the house as compared to the city, and you end up spending way more on transportation…

  75. And I wonder where MajorStyles came from. The suburbs I bet. Along with most the people commenting here.

  76. When it comes to children, raising a baby only cost 12 000 dollars if you are those parents who spoils their children and needs a consumerist lifestyle to valiate their existence.

  77. My wife and I make $250k combined. With 2 kids (one in Catholic school because the local High School sucks), and paid-off cars we are stretched. I have no idea how people making significantly less do it. Our fucking property taxes are $1k a month!
    I’ve told my wife I’m not staying on this hamster wheel forever. When the kids are gone, I’m looking for a little farm far away from this bullshit.

    1. The kids will possibly never be gone. Because they find no job. You think you create babies. And these babies make their way in a successful job and move away. Times are getting tougher, dude. In spain many sons and daughters must live at their parents home because there is no work. So don’t expect that everything will work out for you without issues.

  78. Ur an idiot. Its called saving money and not squandering it away on frivolous shit.

  79. Good article. I know of a man who refused to buy a bigger house, explaining to his wife that he’d rather pay the one off that they were living in before re-locating. Because of this, his wife and two kids left him. She re-married and got her house. His son took his mother’s maiden name and hasn’t talked to his father in a decade, and the daughter sends an occasional email a few times a year. It’s sort of funny, because he is fond of Kansas’ song Dust in The Wind. Loves the karaoke version.

    1. 10 years ago? You mean she went and got a big house in 2006? Oh jeez, she must have wished she didn’t do that divorce…

  80. “Average” is useless in a statistic that has huge outliers. You need to use median, and median home price in the USA is $270K, currently. First time home buyers have a median home cost of $150K. Basically, you should take your home ownership numbers and cut them in half.
    I agree with the sentiment of your article, but the numbers are overstated – if things were really as expensive as you’re portraying, no one would be doing it. The unfortunate thing is it all looks “maybe doable,” so people fall for it.

  81. Or you could just luck out like I did, and have your mother-in-law make your wife the POD beneficiary of all of her bank accounts and TOD of her house with you as the secondary, then have your wife croak and your mother-in-law croak shortly thereafter without changing the POD or TOD, both of which override her trust to give everything to her two surviving loser kids. The only hard part was evicting them from the house (California is tough in this area.) Now I have a four bedroom house and enough to retire on, free and clear.

  82. Okay so hold on, a woman is not supposed to go to college to finance her own American dream…and we aren’t allowed to expect a man to finance it either. So what you are essentially saying is, it’s just wrong to have a dream. That women should he happy to live in whatever state we happen to find ourselves in. If I should live in poverty with a smile why should a man be any different?
    Also where are you getting these numbers!? Surely it must be California, New York City, or something!

    1. “So what you are essentially saying is, it’s just wrong to have a dream.” Yes. Suburban housing development is economically harmful, both on the personal level and public level. It’s way to expensive. If you want some sources I will back it up. But let me ask, what do you enjoy about Suburbs?
      “Also where are you getting these numbers!?” National. It clearly says where they are from, and none of them are state specific…

      1. Burbs are better places to raise kids than the concrete inner city. You have room to spread out, have a yard. You kids dont have to play stick ball in the street. You dont have bums and pervs on every corner.

        1. “Burbs are better places to raise kids than the concrete inner city. ” How? For thousands of years, people have raised kids in cities just fine. In fact, I have noticed a correlation that the US went to shit around the same time De-Urbanization happened, not saying they are necessarily related, but it’s just an interesting coincidence…
          “kids dont have to play stick ball in the street.” So what? What is wrong with playing in the street? Also, have you ever heard of something called a park?
          “You dont have bums and pervs on every corner.” So what magically causes cities to have more bums?

  83. This article reminds me of another I read years ago by a comedian who described a conversation between two old friends who hadn’t seen each other for a long time.
    As the greetings and conversation ensued, one asked the other, where are you living now, to which the other replied : ” I’m living in a 2 storey testament to my wife’s ego, in the middle of the mortgage belt, at the outskirts of my income”.

  84. so glad my ex left me before she and i had any kids or moved out of our apartment… allllelulia. gotta give her credit for leaving at the perfect time for me. 😀

  85. Our rent went up every year until the point where house payments were half of what rents were. It was a no-brainer then to get a house. And with the house I get a garage, my own washer and dryer and my own yard. Plus, I build equity, get tax breaks and can decorated it anyway I want. On the other hand I have mow my own grass, shovel my own driveway and pay for my own maintenance. In some areas of the country rents are cheaper than house payments. There is makes sense to rent, get fast approval payday loan in UK to meet expenses and invest the difference, I would think.

  86. It’s great to have a place to hang your hat. I’ve had some great places, big homes in McLean, Virginia with all the luxuries. But if the woman you’re tied up with goes “UnHaaaaapy”, it then becomes a nightmare. It isn’t the American Dream that’s so awful. It’s the American Feminist Wife that turns it into a fucking nightmare. The slick part is getting out whole and remembering that if you can’t bang the original object of affection, the mother of your child, to take care of rescuing enough money and your psyche when she declares. Take care of and arrange the raising of your kid, and then? Then, you bang everything in sight.
    It worked for me. It’s great to have the American Dream, but the whole thing rests on a foundation that begins with a good woman. And I lost the lottery. But I got the bangs afterward. What did she get? Parents Without Partners and a miserable townhouse outside the Beltway. She got fat, too. REAL fat. For that, she was willing to break up the home SHE lobbied for to begin with. Cunts. And I was an idiot. You cannot make them haaaaappy. Well, some of them, anyway.

  87. The biggest problem with the American Dream is peoples definition of it. It never meant you could be a millionaire or should be. It simply means you can always have food in the fridge, heat in the winter, a car to get to work and if you paid your taxes, no Roman Soldiers waiting outside your house to flog you. Life is pretty simple now if you give it the effort. You simply do not need much of what it out there. I hear stories all the time of people making 250k and struggling. What the hell is wrong with you???? With that income you should have a mid sized sedan or two, a normal house no more than 150k and lots and lots of money in the bank.

    1. “It simply means you can always have food in the fridge, heat in the winter, a car to get to work and if you paid your taxes, no Roman Soldiers waiting outside your house to flog you.” Oh wow, every developed country in the world has attained this dream, actually, the US is one of the countries THAT HAVEN’T attained this dream…

  88. Basically 100K a year is what it takes to live the 1950s way. Some more detail on that:
    The problem is debt. People bid up prices to the maximum they can borrow. Because there is no longer a cash system but a credit system men will go into debt to increase their appearance of wealth to women and of course to satisfy women’s wants and demands. Get the women so go the men. Why do women want these things? Marketing. Since De-beers in the 1930s.
    So not only is the man who lives on a cash basis is comparatively impoverished materially even if he makes 100K/yr his dating prospects are well diminished because compared to other men he seems poor even though his income could be double or more.
    It’s simply another way how the monetary system has degraded the society.

    1. The credit system has changed a lot since the 1950’s. If you wanted a loan rates were high, really high. In the 70’s you were talking upward of 15-17%. The incentive structure would encourage you to buy in a collective (larger families) and on a cash basis using historical family accrued assets. Or you would take advantage of a post-war government subsidized loan through the VA. When interest rates started coming down in the 80’s and the nuclear family became more popular “debt seeking” was more encouraged. All the sudden you could get a mortgage for around 5% (which was unheard of prior to the 80’s). Why not take on debt if the interest seemed like a manageable expense of the course of 30 years (and tax deductible)? Wages were trending up, employment was readily available, if you lost your job you job got another one within a month or two (only after you spent six months playing golf on unemployment). Times have really changed.

      1. The really high rates in the mid double digits were when Volcker (sp??) ran the fed in the early 80s. Those rates on my meager savings when I was kid probably made me a saver. The mortgage rates really didn’t start dropping to lows until the late 1990s early 2000s. I remember when they dropped to 7% or so. Back to the level of the early 1970s, which is what my parents got just before Nixon’s nonsense sent rates higher.
        The thing is back then people saved and often paid cash. It was tough to qualify for loans and people still had memory of what the chains of debt are like. That kept prices down. When everyone can get loans they bid up prices. College tuition today is insane because the schools know there are enough people out there that will pay up to what they can borrow. Kill the student loan program and watch tuition drop like a stone and college administrators end up looking for a job.
        Wages used to increase with productivity, then Nixon closed the gold window and wages started to decouple shortly there after. The federal reserve being free to create money without any link to anything has resulted in wages staying more or less flat as productivity has increased. The difference going to the 0.01% who own the stock. This is the system working as it is designed to work. When the money still had some tie to gold it had a connection to human labor. It doesn’t have to be gold but it has to be something that is connected to human labor so people get the benefit of their productivity gains.

  89. I hope to live in a house in the middle of the forest like the shire

  90. “In over forty years, I never met a man that actually dreamed of owning a home in the suburbs.
    This desire—to own a suburban home—is a female one.”
    I never thought about this before, but it is so true. I don’t get it. Why do women like Suburbs? What do they have to offer?

  91. I read this and i agree. I am also envious of those house prices, australia is significantly more expensive.

  92. @Roosh
    I think it’s ever-changing, especially depending on the circumstances.
    I am probably among the younger crowd, but I still do have a dream.
    For me, (and I know this goes against a lot of what is discussed within the community, but) I eventually WOULD like to settle down with a woman with beauty, brains, and class (this, of course, after I’ve had a chance to experience being a bachelor). Children would come next, preferably a son, to teach about God, and how to think for themselves. How to not be bought.
    However, a house in the suburbs? I’m not sure. Truth be told, I wouldn’t see myself really even living in America at this point. Right now, I like the English countryside (thank God again for the Brexit). However, I’m sure it’ll change a thousand times before I even begin working at it. Regardless, America or not, I’ll carry the American mentality (the traditional one about freedom and God, not the modern one regarding transexual rights and political correctness).
    That being said, I obviously want a wife that is in it for the long run. A marriage is a one and done deal in my eyes. If I was to work at this expensive dream, I wouldn’t do it alone. She would be my PARTNER. We would have to want and work for the same things TOGETHER.

  93. In the above scenario of paying “4.3%” interest you pay almost as much in interest as principal.
    As for kids being expensive, unless they have medical issues, that’s bullshit. Kids are not expensive. MOTHERS are expensive. Kids are simple.

    1. You can tell this one is “from the archives” because interest rates are now around 3% (or lower is you can do a 15 year mortgage) and you hardly need to put 20% down anymore in this economy. That said, ownership is not for everyone or worth the investment in some markets. Just had a GF dump $15,000 into her house worth about $200,000 to update appliances, maintenance, do a few renovations, etc. I asked her if she would get it back in sale value. Her response was “maybe a few thousand”. That is almost what I spent on rent last year adjusted for her accrued investment. Granted she will not have a mortgage payment in another few years but still sounds like renting vs. owning (at least in my metro area) is about a net zero. I would rather just live in the city and call the landlord when something breaks. No hassle. No days off to supervise contractors. No worries about traveling for weeks on end and making sure my neighbor gets my mail or something happens to the house.

  94. I do have 70k lying around and I will invest it not waste it on a down payment to live in the fucking suburbs.

  95. Best article for me I have seen in a while. As I have bought and paid for the suburban home thingy. Yes, it is her dream. And a dream with problems. As right now, I am putting in a new 10ooo dollar AC/heating unit. An irrational expense as aout few window units would acheive the same effect for about 1ooo dollars.
    But there are a few things you can do do dude-ify the property. Like working to turn it into a food producing peasant plot.
    But as I near retirement, I am thinking of selling this and buying a masculine and feminine property. Feminine, small studio near library, night clubs in a college town. And a nearby off grid place in the boonies. No electricity (except a small solar perhaps), wood heater, fruit trees, my own wood.
    Rugged, self sufficient, but occasionally going into town for city-slicker style shit, shower and shave.

  96. “This desire—to own a suburban home—is a female one. In short, it’s her American dream”
    Yet the system is quite good at convincing young boys and young men that it’s their dream, not the dream of women.
    “Please forward this article to all the young men you know. Lord knows, they won’t hear about it in their Economics 101 course.”
    I shall do just that. But bear in mind if the entire banking system collapses it will be painfully obvious at that point.

  97. That is some fucking canon of truth right there Roosh. Super article.

    1. Hi lolknee, I am in NYC area for some time. Would you mind taking a beer? We’ve got common professional interests. I would send you my burner email to keep in touch. Thanks.

  98. Actually, the way its done is you start with a small town home, condo or a “fixer upper”. If you are in a good (growing) area, the value of the property will increase with inflation and demand. As your income improves, you make the next step up in value. The IRS allows you to deduct interest, which helps. After many years you eventually have real appreciation and you build equity. Then, your wife gets it all in the divorce…lol

    1. If you live in the right metro area, this is a good strategy. Especially if you can do the work yourself on the weekend or evenings. Buy a crappy row home for 80K put 30K into renovations. Wait until “black flight” forces out all the bad neighbors (get a gun in the meantime). Then sell it to a hipster for twice what you put into it. You essentially lived for free for 3-5 years and made 100K. Take the cash and travel (that is what I did).

  99. If you look at the average suburban house built during the years just after post WWII when that was the “American Dream” you will find most of them were modest 3-4 bedroom homes with a small backyard and maybe a driveway (remember that up until the 70’s most households only had one car). Most of these homes were a reasonable commute either by public transit or on beautiful newly constructed, non-congested, freeways or interstates to the city center where most jobs were positioned. Man how have times changed.
    I’ve read many theories about how it all changed, but at least on an economic level it started in the 80’s. The Reagan tax cuts did exactly what they were designed to do, they spurred spending. All the sudden Americans that were under oppressive marginal income taxes had tens of thousands of dollars more to spend every year. That sent “keeping up with the Jones” into hyperspace. Then you start seeing the rise of the exurbs and McMansions. All the sudden a modest 3 bedroom house wasn’t enough to raise your family of 2-3 kids. You need a house with an acre parcel, giant backyard, pool, office, guest room, bedroom for every kid, chef’s kitchen, living room, lounge, den, and basement to store all your consumer goods. Roll in the second car for Mom and the third car for kids and just start learning to deal with the new commute times, all is good….for 30 years.
    Then comes the crashes after 9/11 and 2008 and the “new normal” sets in. Gas goes from $2 a gallon to $4 a gallon making that long commute almost unsustainable. Wages get cut. Jobs get lost. Can’t afford all that house anymore. The extra car is a liability. Houses get abandoned. Other just stop paying the mortgage and wait the 1-3 years to ultimately get kicked out. I knew many families that used to have the big McMansion but after Dad lost his job and had to take new work at half the income they just disappeared into the woodwork. Heaven knows what happened to them. They were to ashamed to keep up social connections after getting foreclosed on by the bank.
    The “American Dream” was that of the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. Many women might want to look back to those days and try to replicate them (why not didn’t cost them a dime…all they had to do was agree to raise the family) but they are gone, gone, gone. (Coincidentally, if you want to know why millennials are so interest in living in the city it is because they saw the failures of their families living too large in the suburbs. They just want small sustainable housing close to work hence the transition back into the cities.)
    There are a few good books out there about the economic, societal, and sociological changes of the decades between now and the post-WWII era. I would encourage everyone to read them. It gives a lot of light of our current situation.

    1. Something that happened before the eighties that will never happen again. My father bought a 3 bedroom house in 1961 for 17,000. By the early 70’s it had tripled in value, so he bought a new home for $55k that was another 1k square feet larger. It also tripled in value before he eventually sold it.
      THIS is what fueled the idea that a home was an “investment” and it is not nor will it ever be again.

      1. True. If anything if you were to straight line the cost of rent vs. ownership over the course of 30 years, depending on metro area and state of the market when you look to exit ownership, I doubt you would end up any better then if you just stuck the money in a nominal interest bearing savings account.
        There are exceptions of course to everything. Ownership makes sense in certain markets and you can make money on ownership if you are willing to engage in speculative buying/flipping/etc. It is also easier to predict year to year ownership costs as most mortgages are fixed over the term and if you save away money for maintenance regardless if it is needed any given year that will hedge you from unexpected expenses when those arise.
        Renting is much more market based given most residential leases are on a year to year basis. If you were a renter in the San Fran area in the early 2000’s and expected to continue the same living strategy indefinitely you would have gotten totally screwed. You are also at the mercy of a landlord. If they decide they want to sell, you move. If they decide they would like to not have a tenant so they can remodel, you move. If they just don’t like you for whatever reason, you move. They can also squeeze you in the “sweet spot” where they jack up the rent just enough to where it doesn’t make sense to move, but what they are charging is higher then the market rate. If you they do that to you a few years in a row it is going to start hurting as the rate increases compound. Also, if you get caught in a below market rent situation because the landlord wasn’t paying attention, liked the long term tenant, etc. and then get a sudden adjustment when the landlord realizes they can be getting 50% more it hurts.
        There are advantages and disadvantages to both strategies. Gauge your individual situation and decide which one makes sense for you.

  100. Same in Denmark. Cheap areas are swarmed with Muslims and unfit to raise a family unless you want your kids to speak broken language. Expensive areas require you to be a slave. The young women are only up to having “fun” when young and then want you to pick up the bill when they are hitting the wall. Not going to happen.
    For any red pill man, there is no future here. Simply none.

  101. Good lord, kids don’t really cost that much and you don’t have to do home remodels. You also don’t have to buy cars on payments.

  102. To all those guys. who want to quit that game. . .I have done it – QUIT.
    -Divorce – You need to realize that the good lord didn’t put you on this earth to suffer.Its really that simple. There is no relational equity with a woman – you are disposable at a drop of a hat.

  103. It’s not always women who push for McMansions and pricey trucks and SUVS. Men signal their financial prowess to other men with their possessions. And while trophy wives and SAHMs benefit from this, workamommies have mixed reactions that depend on how status-driven they are compared to their desire for more family time and downtime. Bliss if she’s on the same wavelength and considers missed PTA meetings and doing laundry at 5:00 a.m. a small price to pay for status signaling, but hell if she went in with eyes wide shut and later regrets her decision to throw in with him.

    1. of course – some guys spend their entire lives believing in the “game” ..the most toys wins. I grew up on a farm; the neighbors might work 40 years with no days off and hording money-millions. In the end, some crooked lawyers or family members took their castles. There is balance. My only regret is I wasted a decade on this delusion myself. Shacking up with a hypergamous female is risk business for any male. As males we confuse love with desire. Those are distinctly differrnt paths.

    2. That’s true. I know plenty of men who are terrible with money. Women tend to overspend on houses, men on toys: big TVs, big trucks etc…. I know plenty of couples who have equally run themselves into the ground financially. So much stress, but neither party ever learns. We on the other hand bought our place with 40% down (still very expensive but that’s because of where we live). We own a twelve year old car we will drive until it dies. Never have ever bought an appliance, or furniture etc…without paying cash. Only debt we’ve ever had is our mortgage, and we are working hard to pay that off quickly. We sleep soundly at night.

  104. The modern American woman isn’t in love with the man in the marriage so much as she’s in love with the concept of the marriage itself – the white picket fence, the two children, etc.
    The best thing Western men can do nowadays is to ignore The Script and do things their way; if that means never owning a house outright or lifelong bachelerhood, so be it.

    1. Its very difficult as a young man to not follow the process. The big thing to remember is if you make a mistake; don’t think you will not make it twice or three times. To fix things- you need to retrain your brain until the problem is resolved.

    2. AWs love the fairy tale(expensive wedding, house). They can’t really love a man.

  105. Good article! The “American Dream” is truly only affordable today for the top 0.1%. It is pushed by the elite to put everyone in debt slavery. Without debt it’s only affordable for Powerball and Mega Millions jackpot winners.

    1. The top 1% in ANY country always live like kings. The American Dream was supposed to mean upward mobility. Not many people moving up into the top 1%, if any.

      1. I’m don’t think being in the %1 is such a great thing. Look at Trump, constantly suing and being sued. You have to pay high taxes on your income. You have to pay off politicians like the Clintons to get the government off your back. SJWs constantly trying to raise your taxes even more. Fighting with the IRS…
        When does the 1% ever have time to enjoy their wealth?
        I think the only people that have the good live are politicians and people with pension.

        1. Correct. I’ve met a couple of millionaires over the years and they were all miserable. They spent most of their time protecting thier assets from human leeches.

        2. Why Trump want to president. Can finally live like a king without all the hassles and worry.

        3. Reminds me of a bit of John Lennon wisdom. I’d rather be a bit more rich, and a bit less famous. Considering he was shot after taking a stroll in Manhattan, I can see what he meant.

  106. That will never be me, because the number one thing that matters to me is succeeding in everything I do, and having an interesting life to boot.
    The moment I decide to be a dumb ass and get a mortgage, 3 kids, and a gold digging wife will be the death of me. Why? Because I’d have to sacrifice my freedom and wild spirit in order to stay afloat of all those payments. A life like that has no meaning to me.

  107. Best to live the way you think all of that shit will bring you. Far better to not try to maintain all of that consumer shit. That alone is far more stressful than anything else. It also makes you extremely vulnerable to the Sword of Damocles as a married guy. As bad ass and hard working as you are to get there, to her you will be a weak beta loser trying to appease her to avoid the divorce rape. All the while not feeling the slightest bit of pleasure from all of the effort. You will find yourself in a place where murder/suicides come from.

  108. I need to write an article about living in a truck or RV instead of paying expensive rent, mortgage or hotel bill. Something I think every red-pill man should consider. So much money saved, so much freedom to travel, so much fewer hours as a corporate slave.
    Another myth of the elites, that homelessness always equals misery. Designed to make men slaves to banks, landlords, employers, retailers, tax collectors and American vaginas.

    1. I have a friend who does that. It’s hard to bring back women, but then his home monthly costs are vehicle insurance and a gym membership for showering.

      1. I have to agree. Not that many women are enticed by RVs, unless it’s something akin to a Girls Gone Wild set.

    2. RV dweller right here. I pay $425 a month with electrical and water covered, plus we have a laundromat on premises. And since my RV is old and I don’t trust the gas hookup anyways, and I don’t pay electricity, so my appliances are all electric. And where I live is not the stereotypical white trash park. Also, if we consider that in live in an area that experienced the latest oil boom, one bedroom apartments went up to $1000.
      So yes indeed, RV living is quite affordable and easy to start. You don’t want to spend too much? Check out your local paper, Thrifty Nickel, Craiglist, etc. You might find surplus FEMA Cavalier RVs for $5000 or even less. If you want to risk it and buy new, a gooseneck can be had for perhaps $35000. And if you can, get yourself a toy hauler. That’s my next objective.

  109. Buying a house is not the problem, it’s buying HER HOUSE that is the problem in addition to all the idiots out there who have no fucking clue HOW to actually pick a property that is a solid investment.
    Mine is a 6 bedroom, 2700 sqft built in the 60’s and I bought it for 75K, then paid it off early at around 105K which is the polar opposite of what HER HOUSE would have been. It’s got a “market value” right now of around 170 – 200K but that’s only because I did my homework and know how to spot a good deal.
    Females will demand a brand new house, brand new cars, brand new furniture, and all the rest because young punks today can’t say NO!! and they have no god dam clue how to swing a fucking hammer or turn a dam wrench to keep things going. I just fixed my AC unit outside, took an hour, and saved my $800 because I didn’t need to call somebody else to do it.
    You also left out property taxes, general repairs, and HOA dues which will wipe you out, so kid you need some serious schooling on your numbers!
    The American Dream is absolutely fine. It’s the women, as always who fuck it all up with their incessant demands for lavish unearned lifestyles, or phony status, and then their adamant refusal to be patient and look for the bargains while shopping around. Add that to a generation of weak willed boys who have no clue how to handle a cross word let alone a roll of barbed wire and fence posts and you get the idiocy of princess tinderella and St single mommy dragging Charles cunt worshiper intoHER DREAM !!

    1. Don’t forget the pool, as I learned arguing the point with my ex fiancee. She was stubborn on a pool, and I mean one dug into the ground. I tried my best with my rudimentary math skills and knowledge of construction to explain the costs of a pool. Not to mention she doesn’t know how to swim. I’m glad I broke up with her, lest one of my prospective children drowned.

      1. A pool would never fit in my yard, to many trees and other problems to deal with. That alone on top of the massive time required to keep it maintained isn’t worth it unless you do a lot of entertaining, which most men do not, for whatever the reason.
        The cost for an in ground would be close to 20K depending on how you work it out, and can push up to 50K for something seriously off the charts. An above ground is 10K+ and they are a lot of extra work and really a pain to manage and care for.
        Now that is just a ball park with a pretty ideal set up, you could go cheaper and cut some corners but even that wont save you very much and it can really screw up your property value and tax situation if you are not careful.
        Females could care less about any of that stuff, to them it’s simply I WANT IT and you’re a worthless fagot if you don’t make it happen.

  110. Ok this article is kinda good. Comes with good intentions.
    But there is a catch.
    This “average american” pictured in this article is a morronic fool with epic proportions.
    It may very well be, that in todays western empire this idiocracy is indeed a majority.
    Let me give you a different outlook from the eyes of a man a bit older and a bit wiser than these average men.
    1) You do not marry before you are 30+. You do not have children before 30+. You can fuck all you want and if you want a girl friend, go for it. Just make sure you follow the rules.
    You will not waste your time, youth and energy to do stupid shit. You use this time to find and then work on your life mission. This will also enable you to MAKE MONEY and every single month, starting as early as possible (for some thats 10 years of age!) you will spend less than you earn.
    By age 30 you will be stable, not poor and have a ton of experience.
    2) Debt is dangerous. You only go into debt if you dont need it. You could simply buy it but you choose to go into debt because it makes you money. This is the ONLY reason you do it for consumer products like a house or car.
    Otherwise you only buy what you can pay for – RIGHT NOW.
    3) Since your monthly fixed costs are maybe less than 2K you can indeed save lots of money now. When you were 30 you did pick that 19 year old hotty as your girl friend, remember? She is now near 25 and you have been living together for the past 6 years. All went fine and she did pass all your tests. She looks as sexy as the day you met her. Has the same cloth seize and the two of you are still fucking like rabbits.
    You decide to give it a go and you allow her to have your babies.
    In the past 6 years your nestegg did grow nicely so you can not only afford the baby and the things it needs (not the shit someone else thinks it needs) but also a SAHM to take care of the new child. It is ok to save less now but do not have more than 3 months in a row where you spend more than you earn. NEVER.
    4) The baby is now 3 years old and the mother is as sexy as she was before the baby. She has the same (or near it) seize still and you two are fucking at least 2/week still. You decide it is time for another child and you give it a go.
    At now point did you have to go into debt because YOU DID PLAN ALL THIS MANY YEARS AGO AND ARE WELL PREPARED.
    Should the woman NOT pass any of your tests or the sex vanish or the fat grow, you have an exit plan and are both willing and able to walk away anytime with both your emotinal and financial bodies in good shape.
    Thats what i call an alpha provider.

  111. I’m single and bought my house back in 2000. Starting in 2003, after a second refi, I pounded that mortgage into the ground as hard and as fast as I could. I had the house note paid off in full by March of 2010. What allowed me to do that is that I am single with no kids. A guy can still have his own home if he wants to do it by himself. It’s work to keep it up, but you’ll have your own four walls, with only insurance and property tax as your “rent.”

  112. You can’t afford that on a 2 income household of 110k in NJ. Childcare is 800/m at least for each. Get a vasectomy and buy a Buggatti.

    1. My brother is a trucker with 10 years experience, a wife, three kids, and his own rig. By all accounts he is doing fine. Somehow he has managed to impose order and discipline in his home. Yet, he was pissed off at his health insurance. He pays just around $800 a month. He’s already thinking of dumping his insurance and going across the border for healthcare.

      1. Your brother might want to look into one of the Health Care Ministries in the States (there are four of them). One of the few options that are exempt from the Obamacare mandate. Basically cost-sharing arrangements. The nice thing is you can see any doctor you want without a referral or worrying about in or out of network. Could be a good option to join a high deductible plan for catastrophes and pay cash for the small stuff like checkups and blood work.

  113. Never lived in the suburbs. And after having stayed in the suburbs with my brother for a few days, quite frankly, it made me miss the tough, gritty, yet friendly lifestyle of the inner city. But we all know even the inner cities are now turning into gentrified urban versions of suburbs.

    1. Gentrification is a joke IMO. It’s little more than bringing a slice of the suburbs to the city. Ironically, it’s biggest supporters tend to mock the suburbs as “cookie cutter and lacking in character”.

      1. Precisely. For the sake of experiencing “authenticity”, they come, raise the prices of properties, getting long time residents kicked out. Then they replace all the grocery stores, bakeries, butcher shops, upholstery shops, tailor shops, and cobbler shops with Paneras, Chipotles, Trader Joe’s, and bohemian bars, thus sucking out the life out of a place. That is, until urban life isn’t so trendy anymore. Wonder when that happens, how will cities be affected.
        The most ironic part is, for all the accusations of “white privilege,” it’s these morons who either tend to be white or one of these minorities that speak, eat, and act as if they were white suburbanites. Think Mindy Kaling or Michelle Malkin.

        1. The scourge of gentrification is occurring in Buffalo, NY, near my hometown of Niagara Falls. Trendy “farm to table” restaurants and brewpubs popping up all over. This shit needs to stop. The more “authentic” they try to make it, the more artificial it feels…And let’s need even start with the cliched warehouse to condo/loft conversions, for stratospheric prices.
          A friend of mine who endlessly bashes the ‘burbs lives in Toronto, Liberty Village neighborhood. I remember visiting him for the first time and thinking, “This is nothing more than the suburbs packed into a tighter space”. Chain restaurants, drug stores and coffee shops everywhere.
          Lincoln Road, in Miami Beach, increasingly shows the results of gentrification. It used to be a somewhat interesting area to visit…independently owned shops, bars and restaurants. Now, it looks like a MidWestern suburban strip mall. The Gap, Banana Republic, Apple Computer, Macys & CVS. I can buy that shit (not that I want to) anywhere.
          Increasingly, cities don’t feel like cities anymore. Too sanitized, too sterile, too safe.

  114. I don’t understand some of this site’s articles. Sometimes they’re defending families, and sometimes you’re saying that 99% of man don’t want to raise families. You defend christianity knowing that christian belief does not approve male promiscuity, while you’re all promiscuous men.
    I think you all are just trying to justify your hedonistic life, banging numerous woman while refusing to be part of society. I know your reality is hard, I know your woman is shit, but I also know that any of this changes your duties as mans, that is work and raise a family for the future. If alphas don’t want to have families, then none will never change your society’s future.

    1. That was a long winded “Man-up” there Riv. Many of us would love to follow the old script for life but society itself is wiping it’s ass with that contract and telling us all we are badmen for not falling into line with this shit show and at this point many of us do not want to invest in it. But you knew that already.

    2. Rivershield you do not get it.
      Beeing alpha does indeed include a legacy and that means children.
      But society? If you are an alpha, society is not your friend.
      The goverment – i like to call it “the collective of beta males” – is not your friend. Big religions – another collective of beta males – is not your friend eighter.
      As an alpha you have to do things differently. Your dreams have to be different. Your mission in life is a different one.

  115. One of my dreams was to see a bigfoot and I did that broke as fuck and down and out in broad daylight.
    She had egg sized spots on her upper back of a white/cedar brown color and what a beauty she was.
    Had I been doing some societal lemming award shit like manning up and working some bullshit job I would have missed that.
    I already feel priced out of any real american dream sort of life anyways but I figure my real wealth in life is my incredible experiences as a psychic and experiences with paranormal encounters my entire life. Money buys me nice things to drink, eat, and cloth my body with but beyond that it is meaningless to me.
    The things I have seen in my lucid and precognitive dreams have been great sources of information about spiritual matters and the nature of reality but most folks cannot even imagine what such things are like or that they even exist.
    Sandman has precognitive dreams himself as I had told him of my experiences and he admitted to having precognitive dreaming talent and subsequently produced videos on youtube about his own experiences.

  116. As a European (I know, sob, sob) I always thought the American Dream was about going from rags to riches, start a pop & mom shop that turns into a global brand worth billions.

  117. Reading this makes me feel lucky that the house I just bought was only $32,000

    1. Mine was $34k (upstate NY). Needed cosmetic updating, but had a newer roof, concrete driveway, concrete patio, attached one car garage with carport and full basement. Copper plumbing and circuit breakers (only 60 amp but enough for me).

  118. Keeping up with the Joneses……….That is 90% of the problem.
    20 years ago, I hung out with some sports fanatics. I felt like I didn’t measure up because I didn’t know the latest statistics about Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, or Shaq. In time, I came to realize it was an endless pursuit of worthlessness. Sports was easy to see. Drugs/alcohol is easy to see. However, money, women, adventure or anything else can be just as detrimental if you let yourself rearrange your life for these mirages. Like the Lord has commanded, “Thou shalt not worship false idols”, we cannot worship these things. We can enjoy them, appreciate them, and put some effort into them. Focusing your entire life’s work into them is not healthy however.

  119. You think the American dream is expensive? Try the Aussie dream. Median house price in a mid-range city like Brisbane or Perth has topped AUD$0.5 million. Meanwhile in Sydney or Melbourne, it’s over $1 million fucking dollars to own a home. Sure you can live much cheaper in the “bush”.. best of luck finding a job, now the mining sector has fallen in a huge subsidence hole.
    I’m sure things are no better in Euro countries.

  120. What a great time to live in, people spending 2 thousand dollars a month to raise 2 kids while others raise 7 with welfare money, simply great.

  121. Men have always feared cuckoldry. Countless references in Shakespeare alone. Romantic love was supposed to be the cure, ‘a union of hearts and minds’. But, this seems now to have made matters worse.

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