In the past few months, Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW) has completed its devolution from a sensible philosophy of masculinity into a cult for lonely virgins. While I never identified as MGTOW myself, the old-guard MGTOW blog NO MA’AM (whose owner, Rob Fedders, has become so embarrassed by what MGTOW has become that he’s wiped almost all mention of it from his site) was a huge influence on my thinking; indeed, it was my introduction to anti-feminist thought in general.
The men who created the MGTOW philosophy a decade ago—zed, Ragnar, Rob Fedders etc.—were learned men, who’d seen the horrors of second- and third-wave feminism first-hand. They rode motorcycles, banged girls and read books, sharing their findings via blogs and forums. MGTOW was deliberately conceived as an “anti-movement,” in response to the impotence of men’s rights’ activists, and the “marriage strike“—the most recognizable part of modern “migtow” bleating—wasn’t even mentioned in the original MGTOW manifesto.
As it exists now, MGTOW has become a lonely hearts’ club for the refuse of the male species. Not only are most Virgins Going Their Own Way personally repellent losers, their “philosophy” is completely wrongheaded. Men Going Their Own Way will never appeal to anything more than the rejects of American society because it’s a philosophy that denies the fundamental nature of human beings.
“Lack Of Sex Can Drive A Man Crazy”
One common talking point of “migtows” is that their beliefs represent a completely new take on masculinity: the rejection of male subservience to women, or “pussy worship” as the permavirgins call it. This shows how historically illiterate—and arrogant—they are.
Spiritual and philosophical movements focused on celibacy and the denial of base urges have a long pedigree in human history, from early Buddhism and Jainism in India to the Catholic priesthood, monastic orders such as the Trappists, and quasi-Christian off-shoots such as the Shakers.
While it might inflate the bloated ego of the average “migtow” to be compared to great religious movements of the past and present, MGTOW fails even on that front. Monks and nuns don’t take the vows because they’re angry at not being able to get a date, they choose their lifestyles because they want to become closer to God.
Aside from avoiding women (in actuality being rejected by them), VGTOWs indulge in every vice available to them, from Cheetos to video games to masturbation. Their lifestyles are the very opposite of self-control.
The “migtow” aversion to interacting with women also has a less pleasant parallel to radical feminism. In the 1970’s, extremist feminists such as Andrea Dworkin argued for “political lesbianism,” where feminists only had relationships with other women, regardless of their sexual orientation. Dworkin’s logic was that since men were oppressing women, feminists who dated men were literally fraternizing with the enemy.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some “migtows” start advocating “political homosexuality” in the future. After all, since women are evil, ball-cutting, divorce-raping succubi, the only safe relationships are to be had with other men.
If you bang a dude, he won’t jam you for child support or falsely accuse you of rape, and you certainly won’t be “worshipping pussy” if you pack fudge (You’ll just be exposing yourself to HIV and drug-resistant gonorrhea, but hey, you gotta take the good with the bad).
The Masculine And The Feminine
More to the point, MGTOW will never catch on for the same reason that political lesbianism never became popular: they both deny the fact that men and women want to be with each other.
“Migtows” redefine all male-female relationships into male servitude of women, much in the same way that radical feminists recast relationships as men oppressing women. The problem with this is that the relationship between men and women is one of the most fundamental aspects of human existence. As Jack Donovan stated in his book No Man’s Land, masculinity and femininity are defined in opposition to each other; without one, the other cannot exist.
The idea that men can go it alone or that any form of relationship with women is “pussy worship” is a perversion of the flawed libertarian belief that the smallest unit of society is the individual. Both libertarians and VGTOWs ignore that humans are fundamentally interdependent, with countless relationships—laws, customs, family connections etc.—binding us. A society of atomized, disconnected individuals is no society at all. The smallest unit of society is not the individual, but the relationship between two individuals.
The reality is that as frayed as relations between the sexes are, men and women still fundamentally want to be together. Even the most Instagram-obsessed, passive-aggressive, narcissistic Millennial girl desires a man to take her. And despite their whinnying, the average Doritos-munching “migtow” would go “pussy worshipper” in a flash if a cute, agreeable girl was dropped in his lap.
MGTOW, Will You Please Go Now!
In the end, Men Going Their Own Way is a passing fad, limited to a few bottom-feeders who would have been shipped off to die on the battlefield in epochs less squeamish than our own. The de facto Marxism of most major “migtow” YouTube personalities—as evidenced by their pathological obsession with bashing “TradCons,” their autistic term for anyone who acknowledges the natural place of men and women—also renders them useless.
Despite their claims that “there’s no difference between the left and the right,” “migtows” almost never attack the misandrist, feminist left, even though it’s the left who holds all the power in the West.
Their impotent rage against anything deemed “TradCon”—even though “TradCons” have virtually no influence in society—indicates that “migtows” are just as opposed to the natural order of humanity as the average pierced-lipped, easily “triggered” Tumblrina.
“Migtows” are the social justice warriors of the manosphere: hysterical, intolerant of criticism, and driven entirely by emotion. Their vision of masculinity is one in which men turn inward, refusing to accomplish anything of value or engage with the world beyond crying on the Internet. MGTOW is no place for men who are proud of being men.
Read More: 5 Reasons Why Classical Opera Should Be Your New Masculine Hobby
I’m only here to make this one comment. This is the article that separates the men from the boys…just like the Republicans have the extreme Tea Party and their RINOs.
TL;DR: this article marks the beginning of the end of this site.
Mark my words. You have opened Pandora’s box on this one.
I await the long term results.
MGTOW’s= feminists.
You disagree? MGTOW values followed to their logical conclusion winds up at the same endgame as feminism. Extinct white people, Matriarchy Uber Alles.
Function defines form.
Beat it, feminist.
Lol!
MGTOW’s think they’re lumberjacks.
I’m not fucking with you.
That’s their paradigm.
Most of these guys haven’t ever chopped down a tree.
Chopping down trees is damn hard work.
It’s fun and rewarding if you’re a healthy young lad,
But it’s rough. Chips of wood hitting your face unless you brought your safety goggles. Your hands get ripped up by the wood of the axe handle if you forgot your work gloves.
It’s a hellscape for the forgetful workman.
Do you see the case I’m making here?
Just die already.
You are an idiot.
Bullshit.
I read the whole thing.
If the box is opened, I’m glad.
You’re not needed here.
The past 3 years I have had little contact or relationships with girls, as Id been working on oil rigs, somewhat anti-social, and this ‘time off’ from a social life allowed me to start my own business.
MGTOW allowed me to clear my head for a year or two and stop wasting my time on animalistic pussy chasing.
I think every man needs at least some period of being MGTOW so they can clear their heads and realize pussy has a very limited value.
There are MANY benefits to keeping pussy on the backburner where it belongs while you improve your life / hobbies.
I doubt any small business owner wastes time texting witty lines to dumb bitches, he’s got more important shit to do. You show me a man who chases pussy every weekend, I’ll show you a man who isn’t very succesful in business
jk…how did you go about getting a job on the oil rigs? I read the articles by another author on here and never really got very far…seems like you need to know someone.
I started in 2011 when it was picking up steam so it was alot easier to get a job in the oil field. Now in 2015, with oil at $60 a barrel, it’s more difficult. They aren’t really hiring right now, most are laying off workers.
I was a mudlogger. Now I have my own rock identification system I’m selling to drillers. If I was chasing pussy all hyper like many PUA’s theres no fucking way Id have my own business right now. Chasing pussy is a waste of time. Just make money and let the sluts come to you, then use a condom then kick them out.
Amen.
Call every office, every week, and politely ask them how the hiring process is going. Just be persistent and eventually they will employ you out of sheer annoyance.
Just be careful what you wish for.
MGTOW does not have a monopoly on putting life missions ahead of pussy. Dedication to a mission that gets money or power is practically unintentional game.
I agree. But playing video games all day isn’t a “mission”. It’s surrender.
Unless the video game has missions.
Just kidding.
Interesting perspective. Surrender to what exactly? Women? “Your real manhood”? Ridiculous.
But who are these ‘surrendering’ ‘accomplishing nothing’ ‘giving up’ guys? I’m not saying there isn’t a percentage out there in that classification but this army of Doritos fappers is being way overstated.
A slave telling you how comfortable his chains are and wondering why you don’t wear a set of your own.
Guh-dooshjj… Great line.
Gonna quote that one, nice.
Agreed, which is why I find it absurd when MGTOWs act like they’re the only ones who put pussy in its proper perspective. MGTOWs may believe they’re starving the beast, but even when the beast dies, they will be irrelevant to decide what comes next since they will have no influence outside their own numbers.
More like suicide tbh…
MGTOWs are slave to their philosphy. Well that could be one interpretation at least.
I don’t even play video games at ALL, much less all day. I watch maybe 2 hours of TV per week. The memes and tropes of what MGTOWs are show that it’s just a projection of bitter butt-hurt people trying to put other people down to make up for the mediocrity and lack of depth in their own lives.
Fuck off!
I chase pussy every day. I am very successful. You confuse obsession with leisure.
Its like the guys on here who rail against porn or video games because you are “wasting time”. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. Likewise, I don’t work just to work. I work to finance my leisure time. Once I have worked sufficiently to pay the bills and have some disposable income, I may play some video games, look at some tits and ass online, or head to the club on the weekend and run some game.
Everything has its place man.
“I am very successful.”
How’s the Kratom business going?
Got what you need brother…
All small starts ups today feed two things: vices or vanities. Surf the Kali Yuga.
Electrolytes?
Oxygen. Balloons filled with the stuff.
Did you notice: ratcum / kratom.
Amen brother. I love fucking pussy – but I also like lifting weights and riding motorcycles. Shits not nutual exclusive
Chasing pussy leaves a lot less time for those things.
Rather what you might find… is when you start doing those other things more instead of chasing the tail… that the tail starts to chase you.
That would depend on your priorities. If you value pussy more than health and life itself, otherwise, the pussy can wait till I get to her.
well…at the start if you really suck, you gonna have to spend more time on pussy. but once you get that skillset dialed in….you spend less time on pussy and efficiently utilize it.
This is why I strongly encourage the young guys to spend a lot of time chasing girls. I spent loads of time on it as a youth and got few results. Now I spend very little time on it and get plenty of pussy.
Pussy won’t wait. It will be being shagged by the guy who acted while you failed to act.
The cat never chases the dog brother.
Exactly. Do your thing… be a man… and the women chase you.
The cat is the woman. The woman will give you “signs” but she’s not going to walk up and ask you out unless she is a deranged slut.
Respectfully disagree. They’re just not all bangin 10s (does happen though). I’m not saying you don’t have to do some work…
Well, if you value pussy more than health and wellness, thats your thing. Pussy is not worth compromising for.
Even a deranged slut doesn’t ask dudes out, she just blows him in an alley or whatever.
I got asked out by an deranged slut. She blew me in my car and wrecked my house.
Learning experience.
Getting pussy and having health and wellness are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I would go further and say you cannot have health and wellness without ready access to pussy.
You have never been asked out by a woman ever?
Of course but its not the norm is it?
You put it in a very succinct manner Englishbob. I gotta concur with you mate. Humping lots of pussy must be only a secondary mission for men. It goes without saying body building, wealth generating and soul nourishing must be the primary mission for us red pillers. Just prioritize your needs over your wants and you will be crushing life like a badass.
Why is it that you get to tell people how to live their life. furthermore, why must body building and wealth be a primary goal for all males?
You are so full of yourself if you believe you can dictate someone else’s life, and anyone who follows you wouldnt be a real MGTOW because they would be going someone else’s way.
Not bodybuilding necessarily but a any form exercise can be substituted. Perhaps learning a martial art can be useful too.
You hypocritical little asshole!
Right on! it’s all about have a balance and putting your priorities (e.g., self-improvement) above all else. That’s my philosophy. I am not a PUA nor a MGTOW, but I don’t flat out ignore women. If I see an opportunity with a woman, I take it!
Clark and I came to the same conclusion a couple of nights ago after a few beers. Take some lessons from mgtow and pua but live your life as a man who pushes for his own needs and wants.
Right on! it’s very dynamic . Use it to maximize your utility, whatever it is/may be.
If you guys are ever in LA, hit me up!
Sure thing. Expect an article from us in the near future too.
Most definitely! Looking forward to it.
And that is what a man does!
‘I chase pussy every day. I am very successful.’
Come on! Do you really think a guy who has no shortage of pussy would come to a manosphere website?
It doesn’t follow…
Not getting your point, mate.
It doesn’t follow that just because “…a guy …has no shortage of pussy…” that he would not “…come to a manosphere website”.
Yes I am such a guy. This site helped me get to the place where I have no pussy shortage and to maintain that paradigm. There’s always something new to learn and it’s a space for like minded males to exchange ideas.
Most players I know spent their free time in the gym and text their chicks for a booty call. It keeps them busy enough.
I think people who come to the manosphere are AT BEST reformed betas. They are may not be desperate but they probably don’t get pussy easily.
Yes.
I second this. I am 28, I have a daughter with an ex, and I am currently dating a 19 year old girl. I keep chasing pussy and still manage to run my business. The sad thing here is that I haven´t had a single day in the last two years for me, or vacation. I crave escaping to rest for a weekend.
Then maybe stop chasing pussy for a while and get a vacation. Breaks are needed sometimes.
“I chase pussy every day.”
Not worth that kind of time in my opinion. If you need to chase it every day, you’re doing it wrong, or you’re far too dependent on it. If you’re happy, then I am happy FOR you but for me, that kind of time commitment spent on chasing @$$ is unacceptable.
Time commitment? You don’t have five minutes to chat to a hot girl and get her number? All work and no play my friend…
the weird thing is, i always hesitated to put pussy off the pedestal for the fear that i might stop caring about it completely. which, paradoxically, only bothered me because i was putting it on a pedestal.
That’s the thing, it’s a balance between not putting it on pedestal but still putting in the effort and making it important enough that you get some. Roosh wrote about it once from a business point of view. A guy like Donald Trump obviously cares about money and puts in work to make it, but is he going care if one business transaction goes bad? Yes, but does he decide to stop and obsess over that one transaction because it went bad? No.
I’m sure a MGTOW is a guy who doesn’t spend his entire time completely obsessed with women like those beta losers. Not sure where all this relationships = bad is coming from. And please don’t say every guy must get married now because that is a really stupid thing to do when it’s easy to get divorced and become a victim of child support/alimony.
But maybe I missed out on how MGTOW has been reduced to being like Wizardchan. I don’t really hang out in MRA areas anyway.
MGTOWS never attacking the left?! The MGTOW sites and forums I visit practically hate feminists to the core and the associated left as well…
Tradecons? Seriously I’ve not heard that term used by MGTOW ppl. At least, not in any major way.
Why are we attacking MGTOWS? This isn’t a time for us to be attacking them or even MRAs when the real enemies, feminists and the extreme left, are taking over society.
The only part I disagree with is MRA. They have been infiltrated by the left. In MGTOW case it’s just individual men doing there own thing which is fine.
Forney’s point here is that
THE FIGHT IS CUT OFF AT THE KNEES BY FAGGOT WHINING BITCHES WHO WONT PUT THE WHOLE PICTURE TOGETHER.
Its not about Men’s Rights. Its not about Men needing to build a new world on their own.
The entire western world is fallen due to every last individual’s unwillingness to stand up and take responsibility for their slice of the dirt.
RESPONSIBILITY
THAT is the price of your balls.
And in a futile uphill fight, marching away in the other direction not only detracts from the very argument that men by default should be PROUD to CONTRIBUTE to society, but it also does nothing to help anyone.
If you’ve been reading anything on this site, you’ll realize that society works to satisfy the womens and feminist agenda. Why would any man want to contribute to a system that devalues, robs and rapes them? It would be safer just to leave an area and set up roots with people that are sane. Unfortunately, you will not find sanity in America.
you can basically interpret any kind of interaction from either a oppressed or dominant perspective. power-play.
to obsess over how one is “being used” is pointless. why care if a girl thinks she uses you? the question is simply: what do you want and can you get it? if it leaves some broad overly proud of herself, well, let her.
i’m done chasing after the pride that no interaction involving me can be interpreted in a way that makes me look weird.
All this navel gazing about what is or isn’t a man going his own way, instead of just going off and doing your own thing. If a man is truly going his own way, he cares not the praise or validation from the anonymous internet, and endless essays on the topic are meaningless. Go, do, and heed not the natterings of naysayers and clucking of mother hens. It’s that simple.
Yeah, it’s waaayyy too broad of an idea/term for Forney to tee off like this. The actual term implies that it is the very broadest concept imaginable. ‘Own Way’ What could be broader then that? But then he portrays a MGTOW in detail down to the minutia of the brand of chips they eat on the couch. It’s a stupid angle. Clickbait gone bad.
I’m not singling out Forney, I’m talking about the whole movement. Anywhere I have seen discussion it’s always this is or isn’t MGTOW, this guy is or is not… you get the point. There’s a type of person who loves to talk about their beliefs, because it requires no action. A lot of these MGTOW guys are the same, they want to wax about what is or isn’t instead of just doing what they want. A man truly of his own mind wouldn’t give a fuck what someone thought was or wasn’t his own way.
yup.
wanted to write something along the lines, but then the fair answer is: why bother answering? go your own way.
well, who cares, right. i am going my own way and convincing everybody i don’t give a shit what they think. that’s my way, baby.
There is a definite aspect of guys on here who claim they “don’t need no woman”. This is denial. Every man needs a woman, unless he is gay. The fact is, we desire women constantly and yes, we do need them.
What’s worse, these guys criticize those of us who take the time to better ourselves, to make ourselves more desirable to women and then take action to get women.
To simply say “I am done with women”, is not healthy or natural. It is giving up, and this is not impressive.
“What’s worse, these guys criticize those of us who take the time to better ourselves, to make ourselves more desirable to women and then take action to get women.”
You’ve said this before bob and I don’t see it. Who on here is saying to not have some horizontal refreshment? I am pretty sure we here are all down to ride below the crupper.
i agree. i have attempted resignation, but i never criticized those who tried to better themselves. if i am a loser, i want to be a good loser.
but as you say, it’s not really a choice. beating yourself up every time you get a boner from that cutie on the street and thinking “you are weak. this shouldn’t bother you.” leads nowhere.
I’ll make a note next time I see it to tell you.
LOL
I imagine a guy self-flagellating himself every night while repeating this to himself.
that’s me for most of my early life. i was always annoyed by these petty emotions. oh well – if you can’t crush them, you gotta dance with them, right.
It seems like everyone on ROK is going to get their women, one way or another. Some guys might be referencing other sites or vids where the guys are openly saying, “Forget perfect asses and silver dollar nips…I have my Raymond Chandler novels and model airplane kits!”… Maybe…I doubt it though. I don’t see how a guy can do that. Only a very small percentage. Female bodies are essential. MGTOWS find a way to get those bodies without all the labyrinthine social baggage traditionally associated with the whole game. I think I’m MGTOW. If someone explained to me why I’m not I wouldn’t take it too hard, that’s for sure. I don’t care that much about an online acronym. But I’m not going to work for a woman’s comfort/domestic trinkets for 50 years when it was just maybe one good year of sex. That doesn’t mean I’m done with women by a long shot. Just not the socio-cultural narrative that we’re all corralled into..marriage. Not worth it. Like I said–fifty years of servitude to pay for that one good year of sex. Pssshh..Also, not too much sexual pedestalization. Calm it down a but. The MGTOW I support is a way of living that just calms those urges down by not injecting all kinds of psychological/ego energy into the pursuit of women. Get the body or not but don’t get psycho-emotive over it. It’s just a body. Don’t concoct some Disney shit over it. I’ve never seen those straoms pf MGTOW vids where the guys are just seriously done with women. I haven’t pursued them either. For me MGTOW is; get your money and spend an allotment on tail but not a dime more than it’s worth. Learn the principles of game but live your own life. Those two things fit together anyway.
There is a lot of cross-over between MGTOW, red-pill, neo-masculinity, etc. If you met a guy from one of these “groups” in real life you couldn’t tell them apart, unless they start telling you about how MGTOW they are. I’ve had good conversations with guys about modern life and it turns out they chase tail all day and all night… but they’re also indebted and frustrated… To each his own.
What I find interesting about MGTOW is that in my mind it has the strongest political implications. Neo-masculinity ultimately wants to have the perfect wife and kids… the American Dream essentially… Almost all of us wanted that, or assumed that that life would be available, and that’s why taking the red-pill was so difficult.
MGTOW is trying something new by intentionally starving the system… They’re like the Japanese herbivores with more testosterone. Talented MRAs like Warren Farrell brought gentleness and fairness to the debate, and feminists and society made it obvious that no one actually cares about men’s issues. MGTOWs have basically just responded to that hostility by rethinking the whole situation.
I think Forney specifically means guys who just give up altogether, and presenting MGTOW in that light was just for click-bait material. This article and comments section is just arguing semantics really.
Need a woman? No I don’t. I may want a woman once in a while but I sure as hell don’t need one.
I agree but it’s only unnatural for guys who never had much success with women. If you’re an older guy who has been successful with women for years and have just had enough of the chase and prioritize other things in your life ahead of that then I think it’s natural. I’m not an older guy and I’m not a MGTOW but I can understand why older guys who have have been with plenty of women decide they want to concentrate on other things.
You have to check out the MGTOW men who post on other sites throughout the internet to get what Matt is referencing. Dr. Jeep is perfect example of a rounded MGTOW. But head to a “left” oriented site and you will see, they hate game, love neck beards, don’t focus on self improvement, complain about women as much as we can and come awfully close to suggesting bedding other men over being a female slave. Sounds like the Marxist trend has found a following with men in some ways.
In a few ways, this site has become a solid safe space for men to be men. Look at other sites and you’ll see how labels have shaped many followers.
That is word shifting. If you don’t need a woman, why go after one? This is the same argument for women as to why they don’t need men.
I don’t know… that’s sounds like when a feminist says she wants to “focus on her career”.
If you lack an interest in women that is indicative of a health problem, such as low testosterone, erectile dysfunction or something equally bad. To cover it up with “I don’t need a woman” sounds like an excuse to me.
…
Feminists who say I’ll focus on my career are usually riding the carousel or simply can’t attract men. You’re right in saying that a man who says”I don’t need a woman” is denial if he can’t actually get one, but it’s a different story if a guy has been attracting women and gaming for years but are tired of it and want to focus on other things.
Like who?
I’ve known a couple of guys who have been chasing and getting girls for years but get sick of the bullshit and decide they want to focus’s on other things, and judging by some of the comments there’s other guys out there like that too.
Sounds like their mistake was focusing on women. I have never focused on women. It is a pastime that I do in my free time.
Yea that probably was their mistake, I’m the same as you women are a pastime not my hobby.
“Every man needs a women…”
I had no idea that people as stupid as you must be visited this website. How could it be true that ever man needs a woman? What for? To live? Do you know what the word “needs” means? You can’t possibly mean that a man *needs* a woman the way he needs oxygen and water and a minimum daily intake of nourishment, do you? Maybe by “need” you mean to be fully actualized to his full potential as a man? If that’s the case then I’d see your point. But that begs the question of whether a man can be happy enough and content enough and satisfied enough without fulfilling his potential as a man if it involves putting up with a woman’s bullshit. .
You sound like you need to get laid.
Saying I need to get laid is not the same as saying I need to get married. My problem is that my religion does not allow me to get laid without getting married, and I take my religion extremely seriously. My religion is more important to me than anything else. My spiritual life is more important to me than my physical life. So, even if I did “need” to get laid, I have a problem because marriage is such a horrible rotten and impossibly dangerous option for a man these days. So, if you really believe I need to get laid, and you care about me, then, you need to help fix the law and the customs so that I have a chance to get laid. Otherwise, you are just a troll. Which is fine, trolls add spice to the interwebs, but not any nutritional substance.
Yes mate. You started in on me but I’m the troll.
You started in on others long before I showed up. Are you mad because I’m a better troll than you are? Are you frustrated because I’m out-trolling you? Are you devastated because you’ve been humiliated by The TrollMeister Extraordinaire?
No mate actually I’m bored. Have a great day.
Try “All Of The Above” perhaps.
Just so.
what do you mean?
edit: didn’t know the phrasing.
I mean “it is as you have stated”. I agree with you. I didn’t want to write what I wrote either, I agree, fuck it and do what you want, don’t talk about doing what you want
To me it seems like there’s different types of MGGOWers, there’s guys who can’t get laid so give up, guys who could get laid but are simply are more interested in other things a lot more than pussy and guys who have been divorced raped or screwed over by women and said never again.
I get your logic but I just don’t think any guy ‘gives up’. The true ‘can’t get laid’ guys are holding a mattress corner during rape marches or handing out cups of gatorade at slutwalks. The VGTOW is likely an incredibly low percentage of MGTOW. Maybe 1 or 2 %. That’s my call. Clarey led the charge, I think, and I don’t see why. I can’t imagine any reason why these ‘leaders’ of the manosphere came up with such a stupid strawman like this, alienating their own kind.
This is the kind of article that makes me question the credibility of this whole thing.
well, what’s the whole thing? we have all kinds of authors with different backgrounds here. i say we enjoy the discussion and shout “idiot” at each other. that’s what men do.
I guess the whole thing in my mind is whatever leads to greater freedom.
MRAs, MGTOW, PUAs, red-pill, zero-hedge, in my mind they all have something useful to offer but can’t tell the whole story on their own.
This kind of article comes across to me as “I will write whatever I can to generate the most controversy” when really there is no problem.
i liked it, for it hit a nerve with me. shame can be a very useful emotion when processed correctly.
to challenge each other, is a bit like a male shit test. to confront one with something one may or may not have attempted to hide from oneself. does male shit testing have a place in the manosphere? good question. each site to decide for itself.
but i don’t much like the solidarity under victims attitude that i sometimes sense. after all, being a man is about adversity, too. going all up in sentiments and having to agree on what’s the right path for “men” – i don’t like the sound of it.
challenging each other without condemnation, though, i like that.
Well that is typical of Forney
This, my first thought was this article was made intentionally to create a divide between men in this part of the Internet.
Nothing like a good debate with other men.
Most guys I know who I suspect are virgins are more mangina white knight types. So what you say makes sense.
I’m not a fan, but the point of MGTOW is an answer to rabid feminism of the Left. It’s a radical answer to a radical challenge, and if it consists of male “losers” it’s the mirror of the female losers who are in the process of helping to destroy our civilization. The case can be made that we need to take a more radical role in defending the traditional society. This is just one weapon in our arsenal of weapons.
If losers on both sides don’t pro-create, is that a win/win for civilization?
Of course!
I consider myself MGTOW. Never had any trouble with women. Just have no desire to marry, cohabitate, or have children with a woman. Guess that means there’s something wrong with me, huh. Mgtow are your typical average males. The whole premise of MGTOW is to improve yourself and life as a man.
100% right.
I have no idea what Forney’s agenda is….but this article just proved that he EITHER does not know what an MGTOW is or that he is an idiot.
He should save his hate for the real enemies…Manginas and White-Knights.
At the end of the day the only people who can fix what feminism has done to the basic relationship between men and women are men. That being said, men are largely responsible for giving women and feminist so much power. In 2015 what reason does a man have to marry, cohabitate or have children with a woman knowing the risk? Not saying I’m 100% against it, more so that I’m against men getting fuck over via the state.
You will get fucked by the society, that unless you go monk. One way or another you will get it.
The only thing that matters is what are you going to do when you get fucked and hit the bottom. That’s the ONLY thing that will make the difference.
Yeah, the White-Knights are the guys that I think he was targeting anyway without knowing it. MGTOWS are actually blameless. I don’t know why Forney, Cappy etc started to go all Jezebel and man-shame on their own customers. The logic of this whole attack is non-existent.
NO WAY a 20 year old virgin just drops women via MGTOW (as they’re contending). They only become more insane and fixated. My guess it that most MGTOWS have had their share of women and the hoop-jumping in the West just isn’t for them anymore. It’s just silly and not worth it after you’ve gotten your mitts on a sizeable sampling of women. The deprived ‘losers’ are the hardcore white knights and manginas, for sure, not guys who decide to focus on their own life. Once again, NO WAY a deprived perma-virgin goes MGTOW. It’s physiologically impossible. I was on the late end myself and to look back and think I could have made the ‘monk’ ‘pure MGTOW’ (or whatever) call is laughable. The desire is only 50 times stronger.
i tried it. had some clear moment where i thought i need nothing. cut off everybody. only made me miserable for a long time. i don’t regret it, though. it’s good to know for myself that i can not fight my wish to fuck. if somebody else can, the better for them.
Well, guess I proved you wrong. I had a blowjob once, but never any penetration or the other stuff. I’m actually a bit of a sociopath though, so don’t consider me typical. I had all my normal emotional responses beaten out of me by my savage mother. Because of this, I don’t connect naturally with any human beings. I actually get along well with guys though, the brother in arms feeling is real.
You are young and your desire is nothing out of ordinary but when you’ll get older you will see things differently. I am not saying switch paths now. A man has to do all the things a man has to do. It’s life… and there’s nothing wrong with it.
“100% right.
I have no idea what Forney’s agenda”
Fornay writes shit simply to piss people off for readership purposes like the mainstream media. He’s pissed off the fems so much they have become a bit numb to his writings, so now he wants to piss off his fellow man.
No, I’m sure Roosh paid him good for this article and to advertise “neo”masculinity.
I agree, and Matt Forney should not be bashing loser virgins, he’s a disgusting fat piece of shit himself that probably couldn’t get laid in the U.S. with a rolex
This article doesn’t make sense, and I suspect there is an agenda indeed.
He’s a troll. Simple.
I think there is something wrong with you. I have the same problem as you. But I recognize it is a problem. This is a rational response to the current state of affairs where it is now very dangerous for a man to get married and have children.
But it is only rational in the sense that a man who believes he is made of glass wouldn’t want to move off the couch.
Same here. Heck my dick still hurts from last night, but I don’t put women first, nor on any pedestal. I will walk away from a woman forever before I argue with her, I don’t put up with shit tests.
And lo and behold, there are no fat chicks or turbocunts in my life. The “few” women in my life look good and are good company.
Frankly, if anything happened to the MGTOW “movement”, it may be intended. I would not put it past the think tanks to send trolls out to “sperg up” MGTOW for the goal of destroying it. The PUA who makes his spare time (if not his entire persona) all for “getting laid” is nothing more than a red-piller who thinks he escaped the matrix but in reality just got shunted into a new matrix that lets him think he escaped.
True MGTOW is dangerous to the system. It means no more marriage and divorce rape to feed the system. No more McMansions. No more women ruling the roosts. And any man capable of agency, if not now than later, can do great things when he’s not fettered with domestication.
You can’t destroy Mgtow, half of those who are, don’t even know what it is. Many guys live a life that would be considered Mgtow and have no idea what the name even is. Mgtow has no leader, is disorganized and has no specific direction or central element that can be removed.
He’s starting fight clubs all over the country…lol
“Heck my dick still hurts from last night” That xhamster session will do that.
Agreed, refusal to marry especially US women that’s what I thought MGTOW was.
“Guess that means there’s something wrong with me” Yeah, means you’re a pathetic man child with low T and no drive.
” Never had any trouble with women” doubtful
I won’t say failed at life. There are many great men who got that way because they weren’t seeking relationships with women.
I don’t agree with MGTOW in this regard, but it is nice to see other guys not put up with feminist BS, even if it is for different reasons.
We’re all different factions of the same army. We shouldn’t be attacking the other factions because of some minor differences in opinion.
Re: attacking each other, regardless of the quality of this article
“what some (narrow minded people) see as infighting, or conflict, is in fact GROWTH. Sorting of ideas… And growth is the best thing that can happen, as long as TRUTH & honest debate is maintained.”
– captnhuffy
Has anyone considered MGTOW as a form of extended monk-mode? And really, isn’t it rather….odd….that some of us are so wrapped up in what other guys decide to do with their dicks?
Don’t be bitchy that they don’t want to play this game. Not a good look.
This article is wrong and misguided.
The most popular MGTOW youtuber Sandman has spoken in great depth about his past relationships. His embrace of MGTOW came as a consequence of his experience of women as energy sapping, parasitical and disloyal creatures. Despite being a MGTOW he still dates on occasion and has released videos about his experiences.
The comments section of his videos come mainly from disillusioned men who have endured unhappy relationships with manipulative women or who have been screwed by their wives in the divorce courts.
Theres nothing in the comments section that suggests his viewers fit the description of losers who’ve failed at life and can’t get laid.
A lot of MGTOW channels are full of insight into the harsh reality of female nature and are valuable for players and non-players alike. Turd Flinging Monkey’s series “She’ll never love you” is a brilliant explanation of why women are incapable of love in the way men are. Again Turd Flinging Monkey’s experiences with women started with a couple of cheerleaders in high school and he could not be further from the image of an embittered virgin.
The manosphere and MGTOW share common goals in exposing the gynocentric nature of society, the manipulative nature of the female and the fallacies of feminism.
The manosphere sees getting laid as necessary for a fulfilled life as a man. MGTOW do not rule out getting laid but do not see it as necessary. It’s only a small difference.
It’s a shame to see this infighting between the manosphere and MGTOW. The only winner here is feminism.
PS
Does this MGTOW look like a loser who can’t get laid to you?
36.06- the exact reason to go MGTOW
Matt,
You’re not presenting a comprehensive picture of the MGTOW movement. Men going their OWN way… after all.
There are plenty of non-virgin, self employed, active members of society (myself included) that take the philosophy and use it to justify a refusal to enter into state sanctioned marriage and work with women in any employment threatening professional setting.
At first read I was a little pissed off but I agree with nearly every one of your excellent points in prior writings here and your blog. You have a penchant for the hyperbolic to illicit response and discussion so I’ll forgive this. Just don’t go too far down the rabbit hole of alienating a growing core of your potential reader base.
tl;dr not all mgtow are like that
To hell with this article
Matt Forney, Aaron Clarey, Roosh etc
They are a cult themselves. A cult- a cult of men who realise that when the masses do not agree with them, they start to think of themselves as the official authority to speak on behalf of all men.
Sorry guys, but MGTOW is more powerful than your voices combined ever will be.
Lolocaust on lollerskates
The article is quite obviously nonsense. What is quite strange is that apparently any man who does not spend an inordinate amount of energy and time chasing women are somehow losers. Aaron Clarey made this mistake during his ill-fated confrontation with Barbarossa. Worse, their unnecessary personal attacks sounds distinctly similar to feminist shaming language. In my opinion, this type of feminine behavior significantly injures their credibility.
If they wish to spend their time chasing women for sexual gratification then it is their business. However, castigating others for not doing likewise seems quite cultic to me. This is what feminists do: believe as we do or be the recipient of endless shaming attacks.
It is also strange to compare MGTOW to feminism when the former, generally speaking, simply wish to be left alone while feminists insist on enforcing their believes at gunpoint. The contrast between the two philosophies could not be more striking.
MGTOW (as I see it) is simply two things:
*Risk management
*Cost/benefit analysis.
Matt Forney, Aaron Clarey, Dave Aurini
They are all a cult of men who think that they can stand out be thinking they are more superior than other men who choose to go MGTOW. They are all a joke. They don’t speak for me or for any other men who choose to go their own way.
MGTOW for life.
It’s not that they think they’re superior. It’s that they have products to sell. Who’s going to buy a bunch of books on getting laid if the authors are getting tarred and feathered with the ‘virgin neckbeard’ brush? Hence, the need to distance themselves from it. Always follow the money, gentlemen. Always follow the money.
I don’t know about all these “movements” and definitions of different people all seeking essentially the same path, but I would say so long as men are trying to retain their masculinity, waking up to the external influences of pop culture/politics on their life, and becoming more willing to take on the responsibilities of manhood rather than staying little boys or becoming a “honey-do”, then more power to them. I do know infighting only serves the opposition, let’s hope they’re behind on their Sun Tzu.
This is essentially counter intelligence and it makes me wonder whether the feminists / leftists have made an attempt to infiltrate and erode from within.
~ There is no single better strategy than planting an idea which leads to your enemy to fight itself. ~
It’s not a matter of whether a man is a “real” man in your opinion, it’s about helping and educating that man become so that he can become the best man possible, for the betterment of *all* men. The big picture is that any man who is not with these movements, can be used against these movements, which is exactly what happens with white knights.
easier to just fuck the movement and actually just be your man. why all the approval seeking?
Yeah it’s getting to be a nifty little conundrum.
per definition, a conundrum is difficult to solve, though. this is simple.
Well just the whole concept of defining a movement that is based on being undefined is the tricky part. It’s undefined because there is no preset definition of what a man is supposed to do (as a MGTOW). I mean there are preset definitions but you are to ignore them as a MGTOW. Do what you want. It’s a totally fluid concept, right? So defining it is pointless. Criticizing it is certainly really stupid cause it’s undefined. Criticizing it when you’re one of the leaders of the manosphere? Hooooooowheeeeeeeee. That’s really goddamn stupid.
But your ‘fuck the movement’ is the best option. By ‘fucking the movement’ you’ve actually achieved the gold standard of MGTOW.
well, figuring out how much stupid it is is a conundrum.
escaping the stupidity is easy.
I’m going my own way…
…if that’s all right with you.
It’s really funny that Matt, who looks exactly like the seterotype he’s describing, is making this post.
He calls them “Doritos-munching”, but he’s fat himself. He attacks MGTOW for not being in line with his beliefs and then lies about their views to support his earlier lies. Let men live their lives like how they want do.
Stop obsessing with how other content men live their lives and start improving on your own. This community does not fall into line and blindly support every article or viewpoint because you’ve been around for a while. We realize you’re a salesman first, so take his views with a grain of salt.
Fact-free and panicky… nice try, Forney, but we can smell your fear.
I can smell yours and your false bravado. You can’t really say any of this with a straight face after your failed attempts at rebutting people like Clarey, Aurini, and others during the dust-up.
And you certainly can’t claim anything on your side factually when Neomasculinity gets more adherence and praise than a movement that began with a fucking abbreviation whose greatest sin was that it was a plural one.
http://www.mbc.net/.imaging/stk/mbc/photo-mod4/media/MIGRATION-IMAGE/HOME-OF-MOVIE/n54n68cp_La/original/0b2d61c167a331c938cb3b88814e781090d5e088/n54n68cp_La.jpg
I never understood why people have to put some gay label on everything. Migtow is the faggiest word I’ve ever heard. There have always been men who didn’t give in to societal pressure to get married and instead did whatever the hell they liked with whomever they liked. And I have absolutely no quarrel with it except that it’s nothing new. But people just have this urge to belong to a special snowflake group, don’t they.
Here’s the thing… we can’t go associating the concept of MGTOW automatically with losers who can’t get any. While I don’t follow the MGTOW movement… I do consider myself a man going his own way… and I think there’s incredible value to it in these ways:
1) Going my own way means I focus on myself. I focus on my improvements. I focus on my needs. I focus on my pursuits and goals. I stop the proverbial chase for tail… and I start looking after myself. Never a bad thing
2) Going my own way means I free myself of the chase. I’ve chased… plenty. I’ve donned the clown suit… I’ve done the peacock dance… all of it. It’s utterly exhausting. Going my own way means I can quit that nonsense… and do the above.
3) Going my own way DOES NOT mean I give up on women. It means I go after them MY WAY… as opposed to society’s ways. It means I strike out in my own direction and women who want to follow are welcome to… but my way isn’t going to be the same way as the rest of the world. It means I throw the clown suit away… I refuse to peacock… and that as a self respecting man I’d rather live in a world with no pussy… than be controlled by it. It means “frankly my dear… I don’t give a damn”
4) Going my own way means that I’m going to deny women their major source of power today… control over my dick. No woman is going to get it unless I deem her worthy… and the validation that so many depraved women today seek will not come from me. If ALL men suddenly did this tomorrow… women would change overnight.
To me THAT’s what MGTOW really means. If it’s being perverted that’s a sad thing… because no it shouldn’t be an excuse for being a loser. What it should be is a reminder to men everywhere that society today is going to condition you tirelessly to be a woman’s pet and a doormat to everyone for everything… and if you want to avoid such a horrid existence… you’re going to have to go your own way.
Damn. That was one good post. Wow. So much more insight there than the fatboy going all neener-neener on the fatboy virgins who remind him of himself (and who are, I’d bet, a very small percentage of the very broad world of MGTOW)
I think it’s also important to note that what Forney is talking about… what he characterizes as “Men” going their own way… are not in fact men. They are boys… trapped in boyhood. Why they’re there is up for debate. But let’s not do men the disservice of lumping adult boys in with them
Yeah I get your point there but you can get on the shaky ground there by defining ‘men’ and ‘boys’. There can be some unfair moves there. I’m not saying you’ve made them but a lot of ‘boys’ trapped in ‘boyhood’ are really just men who see no reason to marry a 180 pound cunt of a human being, then live with the financial Sword of Damocles (divorce) over their head. Society calls them a ‘boy’. All the ‘men’ are waiting in line for their Prozac. The new way of looking at it is that a man defines ‘man’ for himself instead of jumping through all the old hoops. Hoops that used to lead to a semi-decent life and no longer do. You can safely guess that I’m unmarried, yeah? Ha ha.
I’m not a fan of “every man defines ‘man’ for himself”. No. Sorry… it’s defined by a culture of men… and by tradition. I don’t hold a monopoly on that distinction… I just abide by it.
well, the beauty of it is this: while you abide by it and disagree that not everybody defines it for himself, those who do will not give a fuck. it’s not like your choice means anything for another man – which in itself is a reason to choose selfishly.
Well, I get that for sure and I definitely respect your thoughts and I like this discussion though I don’t fully agree. You go right to the crux of the whole issue. You said you’re older so you have that ingrained value system from another era. Most guys wish it was still that way, btw. But I think the crux is this; The ‘culture’ defining manhood has let men down. You know? I’ll guess that the definition of man that you’re referring to is this; bravery, sacrifice, duty, volunteering, work, providing….along those lines. Well by now there are too many people taking advantage of that. The good white boy will always answer that call to manhood and there are literally tens of millions of people right there to take advantage. It’s way too broad of an issue for me to cover it all. But the ‘tradition’ part just fucks guys over these days because there is damn near zero reward, thus the Manosphere. There has to be some reward somewhere along the line and it’s no longer there. So, imo, if some guy finds some happiness on his own, then he should go right at it because to fulfill his predefined man-role won’t get him much these days. It’s not as grim as it sounds. It will work itself out. Maybe worldwide the population drops off etc. Or some loner invents some miraculous thing in his mommy’s basement. It’s not so grim. I think both of us are using such broad definitions that it’s hard to pinpoint it in such brief posts.
An enigma set inside a perfect circle stuffed into a conundrum signed with a cryptogram.
yeah, something like that. or something similar.
I agree with your statement that “the culture of defining manhood has let men down”. Totally agree with that. 2 things:
1) it’s letting men down because we’re letting someone else drive that culture. This whole “you’re a man if you feel like it’ crap is exactly what fat acceptance dolts do. We need to start defining what a man is ourselves… because if we don’t… they will. Our unwillingness to do that the past 30-40 years is one of the reasons we see the problems we do.
2) Those values you speak of… I believe in them. BUT… I’d say one of the hallmarks of being a man… is not letting others take advantage of them. Again goes back to what I’m saying above.
Let’s take back control of the conversation. Let’s start defining manhood ourselves… instead of letting a bunch of women or a bunch of white knights who know nothing of it.
We are not boys. We are strong, independent men in a girl’s world. (Yes, i did parrot the Feminist motto, want to fight about it?)
Great convo, but I have to chime in on this part. I think one thing that isn’t considered when you say men are “letting” themselves be taken advantage of is this: the justice / legal system is the main tool that is used to take advantage of men. So, for the men that become subjected to it (i.e., divorce courts, irrational child support courts, false abuse legalities), the definition of man is being redefined for us right before our eyes and we don’t even realize it
Then you stay up 3 nights decoding it and find out it was meaningless.
You sound like those women who scream “a real man wouldn’t…”. Society is gynocentric and will always define a man as one who does what women want him to do. If feminism can break with tradition and redefine gender roles, why is it wrong for men to do it? I don’t really care if you or society tries to shame me and say I am not a man. I’ll be laughing when you are paying alimony and I am not.
Agree I thought MGTOW’s were men opposed to marriage to mostly US women because it is such a no win proposition.
Its because they lose all freedom of choice. You are basically correct.
You get it.
This MGTOW doesn’t…
Thanks Coach.
“1) Going my own way means I focus on myself. I focus on my improvements. I focus on my needs. I focus on my pursuits and goals. I stop the proverbial chase for tail… and I start looking after myself. Never a bad thing”
This.
Why do you need an abbreviation for something that all sane people have been doing for like.. always..?
Yes, that’s what I find baffling about the whole thing. How is this an new idea?
Men and women should absolutely focus on self improvement: gaining knowledge and skills, keeping fit, working themselves through physically and emotionally – all that good stuff, so if you ever want to choose a partner, you’ll be less likely to, you know, fall for someone who’s going to be ‘orrible to you.
You don’t need to avoid the opposite sex, you just need to pay them the basic respect of seeing them as humans, then hang around with the ones whose company you’ll enjoy. I have plenty of male friends, none of whom seem to struggle getting girlfriends, simply because they don’t see women as this ‘unknowable other’.
Sure, I’ve had both male and female friends who have occasionally fallen for a bad sort, (we all know the type – moody, emotionally manipulative, a lovely smile masking a huge pit of seething resentment,) but that has never, ever been a gender thing – it’s a personality thing, equally likely in either of the sexes. The trick is not to let that bad experience prejudice you against other people, just because they share the same superficial traits (breasts for example).
I feel for anyone who has had a bad relationship experience, but if you react to that by saying ‘right, that’s it – they’re all evil, so now I’m going to waste my time playing them to get sex, then bitching about how awful and shallow all the ones I manage to sleep with are,’ then you’re just setting yourself up for a self-perpetuating cycle of despair and resentment.
We’re people too guys. 🙂
If only most guys are “sane”. Because they are on bio evolutionary autopilot mode where accumulating as many mates as possible is the primary directive of life (blue pill). They would kill and put down as many of their kind to attain the object of their desire, which is pussy. Beta omega simp manginas white knights are no different just with different tactics due to social hierarchy. Its as though there is no need to give into the status quo, in the guise of appeasing women to gain instant sexual gratification, ultimately to pass on your genes and be disposed of once the male reproductive purpose have been served. So not all of us can over ride the genetically predisposed programming which results in being thirsty desperate pigs that men have stereotypically become. So why not help others because otherwise most of us would be “mediocre” which has been like always. btw MGTOW focus on self improvements, which is why some futurist and transhumanist philosophies are also incorporated to the MGTOW movement (i.e. extropianism, immortalism, Singularitarianism etc).
So why bash them for being sane?
why do you not? instead of scattered thoughts and ideas, people have gathered to give themselves advice, what’s wrong with that? are you afraid?
Do you want me to be afraid?
I don’t care about you, but I sense that you are afraid of the mgtow movement becoming a thing now that it has a name people know how to seek advice from mgtows, in the past these kind of men were scattered and were looked down, nowadays the tables have turned and these single men who don’t want to commit are seen as smart men, on the contrary to married men who are being seen as uncool from single men, when married man used to be praised by society the tendency is changing and both these men and the women who want to get married are picking up on that and are trying to send them back to the plantation by shaming those men calling them losers and whatnot, but it doesn’t work, we’ve heard it all before.
Lol wow. I only asked because I found it a strange thing to infer from my previous comment. But it does illustrate how much you desire to feel important and feared. It must be interestng seeing the world from that perspective.
well your initial comment suggested that you are afraid of men knowing marriage is bullshit and the thing you and most women have been dreaming about since you were little is not going to happen if men continue to think like me and many other men. if you want to assume that I want to be feared or important that’s your thing, as I said, I don’t care about you.
You seem very eager to let people know how little you care 🙂 Like.. you really really want people to know.
well you are free to think that way if you want, will you ever know if what you say is true? NO, but if it makes you feel better you can think that way.
Ah, but weren’t you the one who started with the emotional evaluation of someone you’ve not even spoken to? 🙂 In that case we can both never assume what the other is feeling…
(although you did mention not once, but twice that you “dont care”…. which is a bit amusing).
My comment was based on what you have said, not only that, you are in a comment section of an article about MGTOW, replying to just about everybody so for me to really care about you I’d have to be on Jezebel or some shit like that but instead you’re the one who’s interested in me.
If it was based on what I said, then it only speaks volumes on your lack of ability to infer correct meaning out of text. Also you replied to me, not vice-versa 🙂
But… its true… Ive been dreaming about you at night. -.- if only You werent MGTOW… alas…
This has become rather boring, have a good day.
Oh. Pity. I thought it was becoming more and more entertaining 🙂
if you consider a meaningless exchange entertaining.
I do 🙂
Because feminism gives women ‘agency’ by controlling and manipulating men, family courts, laws, workplace regulations and anywhere (socially) it can get it’s grubby little fingers. MGTOW is necessary because feminism has overstepped it’s bounds. Now, of course, backlash is not really necessary – but passive refusal to comply (NO MA’AM) is what we’re about.
Feminists say “YOU WILL DO THIS” we say “GO F*CK YOURSELVES”.
Here’s a pack of “C” sized batteries to get you started…
well as long as you don’t blame women in general. But as for feminism, I have a feeling that as both men and women are distancing themselves from it more and more…. we MIGHT see something happening -_- I hope.
You are so full of yourself.
Well, then…
Amen, brother. Matt’s diatribe is misplaced. I’m pretty sure you could peg me as “Mig-tau”, but I am by no means a failure. I’m just disillusioned by psychic nature of the seduction I achieved, when compared to the effort expended and the debasement I endured.
The deepest defining principle is that you come to the belief that compromising yourself for seduction is a violation of your masculine ethics.
Pretty sure its because Roosh is sucking Paul Elams dick.
We have no evidence that he even has a dick.
Just throwing it out, but I believe Roosh has called Paul something along the lines of “beta” before-maybe not that exact wording, but something like that.
Feel free to agree or disagree with him, though.
“I’m just disillusioned by psychic nature of the seduction I achieved, when compared to the effort expended and the debasement I endured. ”
amen to that. when game works and you notice how she responds to it, or even falls in love with you, then you have a very unique kind of pleasure that you wont really find anywhere else. but until this happens, you have to put alot into it. its understandable why some men dont have the motivation to do it anymore. your earlier mentioned post-game mgtow group sounded interesting. any links you can provide?
I was just referring to the category of men who succeeded in their quest to get inside the female mind and were disappointed in what they found. I actually think a good portion of the PUA’s end up like this. It’s hard not to lose respect for women in the process. I think the first one I heard of who did this was Twenty-Six from the book The Game. He quit one day and wandered off into some Eastern religion.
I believe Wilder from the early days of Pickup 101 did something similar. He disappeared from the scene.
Neil Strauss also wrote about losing respect for “the audience”.
I got pretty deep into controlling the female psyche, exploring the pimp-whore relationship and BDSM, and none of it is ultimately satisfying. It’s actually quite depressing.
“I was just referring to the category of men who succeeded in their quest to get inside the female mind and were disappointed in what they found.
…none of it is ultimately satisfying. It’s actually quite depressing.”
sums it up. my experience with pickup is quite the same. the big names in the german community are almost entirely disappeared.
Tell me about it. My son is 13. I’ve told him the truth, at least as far as I see it, and he said the other day, “Dad, sometimes I wish I could go back to thinking that girls were like me, but only smarter, nicer, and prettier to look at. And better smelling.”
Thirteen. Kind of young to be cynical, but I don’t know what else to tell him. If I infect him with naive optimism, he’ll hate me later for lying to him.
tbh i have no idea what to tell about it. when i was that age and a little older, i wished for a female companion to conquer the world with. when i got my first one, it was damn aswesome to feel her warmth, but aside from that, there wasnt much more to it. no real skills to be learned, lots of shittalk incoming. even later, when i found some who didnt shittalk much or could teach me a thing or two, the world was still the same. there is work. you have to be social. exercising in the gym was the same.
before my first girl, i thought woman are like demigods. and then… yeah. finding out they are just humans, or worse, humans who abuse their invisible power that are given to them was quite shattering, especially when like 80% of the people cant see the abuse. frequent lying, tears for benefits and so on.
however, its important to reach the point where you experience this first hand. a pre-game beta whos just afraid and avoids woman out of anxiety still has hope that one day, he can have one of those “demigods” and looks forward to it, while suffering the lack of them in the present. but if he actually had his share and knows the goods and bads about woman, then its easy to just say “nope” and become detached. for your boy, i`d suggest you have him look himself what female companionship is like and let him draw his own conclusions. telling him the truth so he can see through the bullshit hes thaught also was the right thing to do, i`d say. but anyway, since hes 13, the most interesting time is just ahead 😀
Wise words. He needs to reach his own conclusions. I do tell him I’d do it all over again if I given the choice. I don’t regret playing the game, and I still will.
“You knew I was a snake when you picked me up.”
You can pick up a snake, and everyone should have a go at being a snake handler, but don’t kid yourself that they aren’t actually snakes.
So you did something you didnt enjoy, and now no one else should enjoy it either? great logic. I guess I should call anyone who likes cumin a loser cos i hate that taste.
You are calling people worse.
Fact of the matter is that’s just denial. Other than immutable characteristics like race, sex, height, etc there’s no such thing as “who you are” other than “what you do”.
All you’re doing is regurgitating the same cliched cop-out used by people who are too lazy to improve their lifestyle. It’s the same as the fat guy who’s too lazy to eat healthy or work out, so he just tells himself “it’s just who I am” – by telling himself that getting in shape to “please others” is “compromising” he just feels self-justified in being lazy, that’s all it is.
If a guy decides to self-improve then that becomes “who he is”, so it’s not compromising. Guys who decide to be fat, lazy and unambitious and think they’re entitled for women to change “who they are” and just accept them are the ones living in la la land.
Um, no … you’re not getting it.
It’s more like “been there, done that”.
Being attractive to women has been one of my most powerful motivating forces.
It’s hard to describe, but there was a certain point I reached at which I lost motivation. The turning point was when I felt like I had reached understanding of how their psyches worked. Once I had explained it to myself, the compulsion evaporated.
You lost motivation because you continuously chose the women that were wrong for you. Yet so many people in your tribe think its scientific to attribute the anedoctal observations of the few women you have met to the entire gender. No one cares that you are “going your own way”… But when you spread misinformation based on anecdotal observations in such a gross, irrational way, of course you are going to get your butt handed to you.
Here’s a newflash to you, bro: A HUGE part of humanity sucks. No exception… men, women, trans…. Any race any group. there are so many people that suck, its unimaginable.
Now people are starting to make the same generalizations about you, that you guys do about the entirety of the female gender…And you dare complain about it? Lol. Some people are truly blind to their own shortcomings.
The lucky thing is that a HUGE portion of humans are also awesome… And those are the people i hang out with, so my world is likely significantly more fun and bright than yours.
Yeah, yeah, NAWALT. We’ve heard that shtick all before (“it’s your fault for picking the wrong women!”).
Nothing you said was even remotely related to my comment.
Wow, you’re all about defending the women-folk huh? Gotta keep trying to convince men to “come back to their senses” so you have prey to vampire off of down the road eh?
No. I do not want you to come back to your senses, because you never had any to begin with. I want you to stay a mgtow, so that other females dont have to deal with you. I think the rest of us silly cunts and manginas will be happy without you guys… even if we do become a minority.
You must be a hell of an athlete.
You silly little individual, could you just stop explaining to people where they failed without knowing shit about their lives?
So why the hell are you spitting your poison all over this thread?
Sure it was.
How about Men Reclaiming Masculinity MRM. It’s shorter, and really represents what I’m about more than just running away from society with my tail between my legs.
Perhaps, after going your own way for a while, you’ll look back and decide to be a leader and lead the women in your life down a path to a better life. Then it wouldn’t be MGTOW anymore because it would INCLUDE women. An analogous “WGTOW” acronym doesn’t make sense if women depend on men for leadership, which they do. Abandoning women to the decline is not the answer.
That’s the thing. I think MGTOW IS leading women… but only REAL women. Not the ratchet narcissistic girls masquerading as women… but a real woman. A real woman has an innate desire to follow a man who’s a real leader… and real leaders are going their own way right now.
That’s why I think the going your own way idea is about so much more than just being fed up with chasing pussy. It’s saying “no… I won’t be a part of this fucked up way of life anymore… I don’t care if I die… I don’t care if I never get laid again… but I have dignity and refuse to sacrifice that just to get my dick wet”.
You can go your own way and have all the women you want… as long they’re women that follow your way and your rules. Sadly we know women like that are almost non existent… but do you think we’ll get more or less of them by continuing to clown ourselves just to get laid…
I think it all depends on your motive, your state of mind, your mindset. If you’re clowning yourself just to get laid then you’re probably wasting time. But if you’re trying to be a leader and help a woman develop into a better woman, and you decide to use seduction as a leadership tactic, and clown game as a method of seduction, then you get more out of the experience because you have a noble goal in mind. Furthermore, if you’re trying to make that woman so much better that she might actually become a good mother so you can raise children with her, well then your goal is that much more noble. Seduction can be used to lead women. Sure there is the return benefit of sexual enjoyment, but so what? Mutualistic symbiosis is beautiful every time it occurs in nature. 😉
That’s the way I see it. It’s not giving up on having women, it’s more about waking up to the cage that women and society have put us in as men. That’s what the Red Pill is about- Realizing the brain-washing and taking back our free will. Unfortunately, women get the most and are coddled the most by the situation, and they’re raised by society to be infantile, so most have no concept of changing for the better.
Captain save a ho …
The thing is… Your kind in the MGTOW community is looked down upon. You don’t want to give up on women. But MGTOW is about walking away and then laughing in the womens face when they actually show remorse. At least thats how Ive seen most MGTOW behave. Id say that if you were to follow the current MGTOW doctrine fully, then you’d be for gender segregation. But im happy that some of you still have sanity left 🙂
Nikki, thanks for the posting. And the Men’s Movement is so new that terminology is getting tossed around and embraced before people even consider what it means, or where the people decide where they eventually want to go. But factionalism exists and sides gain status by attacking one side or the other, even when they don’t know themselves what they’re talking about.
It all started because of perceived unfairness in society based on false social constructs and ideas. Then men realized they were losing the fundamentals of masculinity. To the point where many people are now questioning what masculinity even is. (Fortunately, the answers are found by studying ancient philosophy and history.)
MGTOW started first, and I think the term is appropriate. However, being the first to come up, it was filled with mostly angery guys. Now Neo-Masculinity is coming around. Which I think is a mislabel. Men Going Their Own Way, to me, says it’s about not feeding into things that take away the most important, integral part of YOU, n man, as a human being. Neo-Masculinity makes absolutely no sense from a language standpoint.
Now, my take on the whole thing is that MGTOW can embrace people who use the term “Neo-Masculinity.” But not the other way around. But now I’m just arguing semantics.
But hating women has no place in the Men’s Rights Movement. While pointing out the foibles of women who act the way they do because of the societal problems Men’s Rights people recognize. . . That’s a good thing for the time being because it highlights and puts into perspective the social constructs that men need to recognize and consider for reasons of self-improvement.
“Masculinity” is about taking inventory of yourself and acting accordingly with rationality, justice, and respect. And most of all, having the inner strenght to stand up for what’s right. These are loaded terms, and when understood, are life-changing and affirming. Women and Men are partners in the continuing evolution of the human race. And to get things right, one side or the other can’t be slaves or beholden to the other.
As an aside, consider how many women complain of the false body image promoted by magazines. Or how they feel pushed into the family/mother/nurturer role. Feminism is what you have to fight this. Men don’t have a “Masculism” group to tell them how they’re being manipulated.
Thanks again.
You are so full of shit.
Babysitting and “leading” the modern, liberated, know-it-all, materialistic and narcissistic North American female is neither my responsibility or inclination. Let the beta-boys, simps and “progressive liberal male feminists” deal with these new monsters.
You thinking this is some social DUTY of men is EXACTLY why MGTOW is so badly needed. I’m here to let other men know you are full of crap and nobody is heeding your “wise advice” because it’s not based on any wisedom whatsoever.
Another way to put it: Matt wrote his diatribe about pre-Game MGTOW. There’s a whole other group, who are post-Game. These are the men who had their success with women, became disgusted with what they saw inside women, and became disgusted with themselves for expending effort in the first place.
Lets correct this a bit, shall we?
“These are the men who had their success with women, became disgusted with what they saw inside women *they themselves chose to be with*, and became disgusted with themselves for expending effort in the first place.”
Why just those that made the cut for them to choose to be with? If those disgusted them then surely those lesser women who didn’t even make the cut are even worse right?
You make the mistake in thinking that men have an unquestionable ability to make the right choice. Always.
Not only that, but how are other women worse? And how many women did he speak to? What type of woman did he seek out?
How about guy friends? If he has a few guy friends, does that mean the rest of the male population is worse? If he decides that one of his male friends is a leech and bad friend, does this automatically mean that all other guys who didnt make the cut are even worse?
If he decides that all of his male friends are leeches, and if we reasonably presume he picked the best of those men he found in society to be friends with (who were willing to be friends with him,) then we can make a reasonable inference that the males accessible for friendship by him suck. This is basic logic.
Of course none of this makes sense using lady logic where friends are picked without regard to their relative suitability for friendship, but since the decision maker here is male we are assuming man logic and not lady logic :-p
Yes… Accessible to HIM. Not other men. People make the mistake of thinking that just because THEY failed to find real friendships.. that others must too. In fact, when a guy like that sees another guy be a successful friend with a female, he will try everything in his might to devalue that such that he can build a belief that the other guy is really just a mangina who let that girl use him. Meanwhile, the guy/girl friends dont even know about it and they just go on being happy and doing fun stuff together.
As long as we see the other gender as the enemy we won’t progress in a society that require work from each of us. We never know what another person will find attractive. The only way to find out is to make contact.
You all need to shut the fuck up, and calm the fuck down. Here’s an idea, why don’t we split the entire world into two sections? Women on one side and men on the other. Then we’ll place bets to see how long it takes for you all to crash and burn and realise you can’t live without each other. Modern day, radical feminists are psyhos, and this whole MGTOW thing is the exact same thing, just aimed at men. Both of these ‘movements’, or whatever the fuck they are, are ridiculous and makes everyone who follows them look and behave like whiny little bitches. Grow the fuck up. The entire human race is flawed, blaming each other for it isn’t going to fix it, and it just makes people like all of you look like dick heads. You’re all annoying and pointless and the rest of society wishes you would crawl back into the hole you came out of. @disqus_OaIrS7tQfL:disqus @haroldtitoortega:disqus
im not blaming anyone o.o
I don’t care what you are or aren’t doing. The fact of the matter is that you’re contributing to the conversation in a way that encourages them. I’m tired of seeing these kinds of arguments popping up all over the place and ruining progression towards civility for the rest of us. I can’t talk to a guy without wondering whether or not he hates women; and men can’t talk to me without wondering whether or not I hate them. It’s like the only way I can get a date nowadays is if I start off by saying ‘hi, my name is Kinta and I actually like men’. So excuse me if I seem like a bitch.
So… instead of claiming to be superior because of the fact that you dont participating in conversation about this, why not tell me what I said that is so detrimental to civilization?
If you read closely what I wrote, I am advocating taking responsibility for your personal life. What are you doing? You seem to want to stop conversation. How is that going to encourage progress?
Do you not see the point in challenging ideas? Do you think progress happens when ideas go unchallenged? And how is not participating so much better? What will that change?
Also you are wrong about this statement:
It’s like the only way I can get a date nowadays is if I start off by saying ‘hi, my name is Kinta and I actually like men’.
Virtually no one has to say that in order to get a date. You shouldn’t fear mgtow because it will never be the norm.
Yes, if you hang out in gender-issue circles your perception might change to see it that way. But I expose myself to many people. many philosophies. Many ideas. I can tell you this. Most people I know just want to be happy. Most people will never have more than a passing interesting in extreme gender ideologies. In fact most people just want balance.
Also i hope you didn’t bunch me in with feminists. That only shows your lack of willingness to know your opponent before throwing an accusation towards them. I do believe in most feminist theories or ideas.
It is really quite strange that you chose that post to bitch over as I wasn’t even making much of a point. I was correcting the idea that men arent to have any personal responsibility about the females they choose to spend time with.
Quite honestly, I find your protest a bit weird and I am not sure what exactly I said to trigger it. In any case i apologize if I struck a wrong nerve.
It’s quite obvious I didn’t claim superiority, but I find it interesting you would jump to that conclusion. And you know exactly what you’re doing to antagonise those idiots. I’m not going through all your posts and picking shit out just to appease you, grow up. I’ve already made a remark about being all for equality, however, do you honestly believe that this pointless, antagonistic argument is really ‘challenging ideas’ and ‘making a change’? No. It just gives guys like this an excuse to excercise their entitled, sorry ass, sense of control over women. It’s extremely obvious that they’re not changing their minds any time soon, and you’re certainly not encouraging them to. And my statement is an over exaggeration, again obvious. It’s just an example of what interaction between the sexes is becoming on the internet, if it continues then people are going to behave like this face to face. MGTOW may not be the norm, but you’d be surprised about the number of men that actually feel this way. They just hide it because it’s socially unacceptable to act like a misogynistic asshole. I also expose myself too different philosophies and well-rounded people, but the internet is where I do most of my social networking and where people across the world communicate with each other. It’s also where people spout angry hateful crap behind the shroud of anonymity.
In your original comment you say:
“You all need to shut the fuck up, and calm the fuck down. ”
It is obvious that the only one here who isn’t calm is you.
Now to some points in your rant:
“however, do you honestly believe that this pointless, antagonistic argument is really ‘challenging ideas’ and ‘making a change’?”
Well no one else challenged it. I was making a point and hoped for a reply from the original poster as to engage in a proper conversation about it. Alas that never happened, and it is true that I could have re-phrased it into something better. I do not feel it was very antagonistic though, and I certainly dont feel it warranted the violent response you threw at me. Telling people to shut up never solves anything. The best you can do is point out why their argument is weak.
The argument i made isn’t even untrue.
I am also not the one here telling people to grow up and stop talking.
But most of all, I find it problematic that you’d choose one of my weaker comments Ive made and use that as a catalyst to tell everyone to shut up. Like I said, at best you should pick apart my argument and tell me why it’s weak.
I don’t speak to these people out of hate in any case. What you see here is me being launched into a “world” i didnt even know existed. Sure I knew there were men who are not fond of women and such. I have been subscribed to people like thunderf00t and AmazingAtheist for years. I never really seriously participated in gender discussions much. But I take in the info and criticism because I feel it is valid. That comment is just one way I tried to poke and prod at this mgtow thing I was so unfamiliar with. Mgtow was provocative enough to make me really curious about it.. my participation in conversations about this mgtow thing has decreased a lot lately after I felt I have learned enough about it. It is quite amusing to me that someone would find a completely different meaning in a comment i made 2 months ago than was intended 🙂 But thats why I love conversations on the internet. Different people, different interpretations and meaning. It helps us grow and learn.
You think I’m not calm. Why? Because I threw some bad words around and decided to say something you don’t agree with? No one else challenged their ridiculous ideas because everyone is sick of their misogynistic bullshit. The rest of the world is hoping that if we ignore them then they’ll grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. I don’t even know what your initial comment said. I just picked one at random because, in case you didn’t notice, my first comment was aimed at all of you. Stop acting like this is somehow a personal attack on you and you’re being singled out. You’re not. You just happened to be the only one that replied. And you think I should instead pick apart an argument and point out why it’s weak. That’s what you’re supposedly doing right? How’s that going for you? Not to mention, what you people are participating in isn’t an argument. It’s a battle to see who folds first and stops commenting.
Lol your typing style might just be frantic. If you say you’re calm, I believe you 🙂
” Not to mention, what you people are participating in isn’t an argument. It’s a battle to see who folds first and stops commenting.”
Maybe that says more about you… I always argue and discuss in order to get to know people and their thoughts. I am aware that most people wont change their mind just because of that.
But really, it doesnt affect you at all. so i find it interesting you are so hung up on a conversation hat had nothing to do with you. What exactly was your goal by telling people to shut up? Did you think that would make them listen to you? Or did you just feel like blowing off steam by ranting at people who actively engage in a conversation while simultaneously implying that you are better because you dont? (which like it or no, you ARE doing right now)…
Like really think about it.. what do you think you are achieving by telling people off for arguing?
What it says about me is that I’ve dealt with too many morons on the internet. I’m not telling you people off for “arguing” or “debating” what ever term you want to use to make it look better. I’m telling you off for acting like children. Whilst your points I can agree with wholeheartedly, the fact that they’re being used in an antagonistic manner gives women a bad name and just reinforces their beliefs that women are manipulative and narcissistic. And clearly my tactic worked (hopefully I’m not jinxing myself) because you’re the only one that I see here right now.
So.. how do you determine whether someone is a moron? And what gives you the right to say whether they are? I argue with many people I’d deem a moron if I was not careful. But what helps me keeping a healthier perspective is knowing that everyone is speaking from their own accumulated experiences leading them to this point.
You keep saying we act like children, but I really don’t agree. I have never seen a child talk in the manner we have. I also still don’t agree that it was an antagonistic comment. In any case, it wasn’t meant to be. Also how does it seem manipulatve and narcissistic? Can you please back up your accusation here?
Cut it with the self-righteous bullshit. And stop taking every figure of speech that I put out there so literally, I can’t figure out if you’re grasping at straws or if you’re just that stupid. Your need for me to explain every single word that I type is grating also. Do you want me to use smaller syllables so you can understand me better? This conversation is lowering my IQ. You can keep spouting self-righteous bullshit and pretend like you’re fixing the problem rather than contributing to it, but I’m done here. I won’t be replying anymore.
The interesting part is that you can accuse anyone of being stupid, a moron, lowering your IQ… but without making a real point, you’re pretty much trying to kick other people down while raising yourself above them. Personally, I don’t feel this reflects well on females as a whole… although I also dont judge an entire gender based on one person that I have an unpleasant exchange with 🙂
Part of me is starting to think you’re trolling for reactions though, so I have nothing further to say. I wish you well.
This argument is exactly why mgtow is growing. Neither of you are desirable to anyone above base sexual interest (if that).
https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Mgtow
And Nikki I’ll ask the question again that you skirted below but this time concisely:
What does a long term relationship with a woman provide a man who can cook, clean, build and maintain his own house, other than sex and additional unrequited responsibilities?
The answer is:
She provides him with a list of duties he has no interest in performing at his cost, both in time and material, while discouraging activities that she finds uninteresting and feels perfectly entitled to being a complete asshole when she’s not getting her way.
In short, he gets nothing but the shittiest friend that takes advantage of him the most and gets away with it right up to the end of the relationship because she has no accountability.
Finally, you two have committed a large amount of time into something you’re claimed “isn’t a threat,” “won’t be around long” “are whiny losers”…
You must be either lying or terribly undesirable to have come to a man’s perspective website to argue men back into husbandry of some form or another to invest so much in a non-existent threat…..
Seriously? Get over yourself. I could care less whether you deem me sexually desirable or not. I wasn’t born to impress you. And why don’t we turn the question around? What the hell can a man bring to the relationship? Let me guess. You’re gonna say stability and wealth and leadership. Right? You would be wrong. Sorry to break it to you pal, but not every woman on this planet is a grovelling mess that needs a man in her life. Just like not every man is strong and independent (if only they could get rid of that leech they call a woman!). If this is the case though, then how do you explain the fact that every woman I know, including me, has taken on the role of leadership, breadwinner and stability, whilst every man I know has done nothing but take advantage of our hard work and offered nothing but ridiculous standards for us to meet all the while spouting lies of their own. You know what we did when that happened? We stopped dating. Don’t get me wrong, I’m still friendly and still have sex with men (because I’m sane enough to know that every single man in this world is the same). But I find that men have little more to offer me than sex. This exact same thing has happened to women right across the western world. A lot of women have been ‘going their own way’ for quite a while. We just didn’t make an entire movement and cried about how horrible and dependent we found men to be.
Like I said, here you are complaining about the male perspective, a movement created as a reaction to the feminist movement which kept benevolent sexism in the cases of alimony and tender years doctrines (which still exist under different titles) and instituted bigoted laws barring detrimental sexism, which in turn was a result of the trad con movement which placed women and children first (and still does.)
I’m well aware many “men” today are useless, though I’m quite certain in my example I specified men who clearly weren’t but since you want to reword the reversal to fit your narrative I’d tell you not to date worthless men.
One might consider that men still make up a huge portion of the productive population paying 70% of the taxes and overwhelmingly occupying tangible industries necessary for any other workforce to exist such as construction (in all its forms), engineering, police and soldiers, high level medicine and law, farming (agriculture and meat), fishing, logging, and all maintenance fields such as road and bridge work, shipping, and cooking.
Given that is the case, it’s quite obvious that women have more than twice the likelihood that they’ll find a breadwinner rather than be one.
It is also obviously the case that 27% of women who do will be the one filing for divorce where they will extract more wealth than they put in.
So your anecdotal example of you being the breadwinner is irrelevant when considering the average experience of men.
If I told you that 25% of a bowl of m&ms were poisoned, would you take one? Of course you wouldn’t, but you expect men to do exactly that.
You won’t accept it, but that is exactly why those men are leeching off you. You’re a pain in the ass and believe you have the right to be. Those men have no long term interest in you or people like you because the end result is a loveless marriage which you, and women like you, invariably end on a whim stealing away the house and the kids.
You’re not worth investing in. Maybe not you as an individual, but the institution as a whole is too risky a venture.
I’ll say it again, would you put your kids in a daycare where one in four gets horribly crippled?
The answer is no, and the reason is fuck that.
So thank you for your very typical backstory, with your puerile character attacks and utter disinterest in affecting the change that will bring good men back to the table.
Many men throughout history have been losers, the question is: Why are you dating them, and why are you so quick to proclaim all the women you know aren’t (but are also dating them)?
The exact same thing could be said for men like you. Why the hell are you dating shitty women? You blame my experiences with shitty men on my choices, however you don’t seem to be taking any responsibility for the choices you made that led you to date shitty women. Yeah, the majority of men are in those positions, but that’s why feminism came about, so we could spread that work evenly. It has partially worked however their is still a lot of sexism in male dominated areas which prevent women from wanting to go into those fields. Whether you believe that or not doesn’t make it any less true. I agree that there is also a lot of inequality for men. I basically stated in my first comment that I was against radical feminism and your movement. They both are extremely hypocritical and contradictory.
This and the previous post response are in the wrong spot for anyone trying to follow.
My observation of women isn’t drawn directly or solely from my anecdotal experiences but rather the data that overwhelmingly proves my case. You’ll note I didn’t use personal examples in “our” conversation. That would be why it isn’t hypocritical blah blah whatever else you wrote about crying.
This isn’t a funhouse mirror game where you take some marginal poignant response to your erratic and demanding diatribe and twist it to find justification through your perverted lens of rationalization.
The majority of the observers here are tempered by reality and an endless parade from carbon copies of yourself comprised of an eerily similar insistence in relevance for simply existing and proclaiming right for having been shat out onto this world.
Feminism, and traditionalism before it, has victimized you right into objects who only have a voice to exercise when they are forced to be anything but a victim.
Feminism isn’t interested in spreading work evenly. In fact half as many women are in the sciences as were when second wave kicked off despite the fact that 150% more women graduate college compared to men.
Not in the office, and certainly not in the field work.
Your claims of “sexism” is nothing more than objectifying women as being to weak to endure competition.
There are plenty of rich entrepreneurial women who could finance any business venture any hard nosed woman wanted to start without any men at all. But they won’t start them will they? Must be men’s fault.
They won’t start it the same way you crawled here to bitch. You want men to do it for you. Only men can fix it, only men can make it safe, only men are the problem.
Because you see women as objects and men as agents. It’s time you got back to first wave feminism and did something for yourself.
So would bringing up the recent cases of sexual harassment amongst surgeons be objectifying women? Would bringing up the fact that when a female surgeon sued due to sexual harassment, despite the fact that she won the case, she lost her job and was blackballed from major hospitals objectifying women? Would bringing up the fact that she was told if she’d just performed the blow job that was asked of her then she would have kept her job objectify women? Because that is the type of sexism I’m talking about. The acts committed against these women are objectifying. All you have to do is google search sexual harassment in male dominated careers/industries to see how much sexism still exists (and I’m not talking about that nipple censorship shit either). You try to articulate yourself in order to bring merit to what you’re saying, but truthfully everything you’ve said is a load of bullshit. I can’t take you, or this movement, seriously when you spew out misogynistic, male-domination orientated crap like that. I find it exceptionally hard to believe that you derive this much animosity from facts and not personal experiences. This is a laughable and pointless argument. I’ll tell you what I told Nikki. You can continue spewing the weird shit that you’ve been spewing for god knows how long, but this conversation isn’t worth my time. I’m not even gonna bother reading whatever you or anyone else on here have to say. Doing so would just diminish whatever respect I still have for any of you. Have a nice life.
Again you bring up anecdotal evidence in an attempt to support your claim in what has been historically a one way vacuum. If you want to consider sexual harassment consider the fact that men weren’t even surveyed for it until very recently and the studies showed unsurprising parity when the same questions were asked.
Once again you’ll focus on an industry and label it male dominated but proclaim the long hours, difficult content, miniscule college participation and vacating of the workforce by women as they have children as non factors, or if you include them, proclaim women are objects upon which “institutionalized sexism” has pushed them into those roles rather than acknowledge their choices as independent thought.
If you insist women aren’t responsible for their choices, or capable of making them independently, and are simply controlled by men, then there isn’t any reason for including the consideration of those choices. You’re making women victims despite any action they choose, claiming those choices are actually made by men.
Sexual harassment, especially of women, has many laws on the books. You’ll still claim there isn’t equity of opportunity by claiming women won’t report it. This is a choice, made by women, you blame on men, because as I stated repeatedly now, you believe only men are agents.
That’s sexism.
Law after law has been written with a preferential bias toward women including title 9, tender years, vawa, domestic violence laws, and many more for equity including pay equality, medical insurance rates (despite 66% of cost going to women discluding child birth) as well as female only education grants and scholarships and still women proclaim to be disadvantaged across the entire social spectrum.
The wage gap has been proven to be a result of the work gap.
The Mary Koss rape myth has been disproved as well as gender parity when men were asked the same set of questions.
Parental fraud stands at parity with actual rape statistics.
Workplace deaths are 11:1.
Suicide is 4:1
Life expectancy has approx half a decade favour for women and the entitlements that come with it.
College attendance and graduation is 3:2 and growing in favour of women despite an unchanging and even decreasing participation in the work force.
Entitlement programs are staggeringly in favour of women’s needs.
Women have full autonomy to parenthood across every phase and year of development.
Women are seven times less likely to be homeless.
Half as likely to be convicted of a crime.
Women will serve 66% of the sentence a man would serve after the much less probable case she gets convicted.
Women have the right to genital integrity.
More men are raped in prison than women are in the whole country.
Men are seven times more likely to be a victim of violent crime.
Men are 40% of domestic abuse victims and deaths.
Mothers are responsible for the majority of infanticides and child abuse.
Women represent the majority of the voter base and are excluded from selective service after receiving that right a year after men dying in war did.
There are infinitely more cases of life saving gender specific benevolent sexism examples any reasonable person can clearly delineate compared to the pathetically small relatively innocuous examples of “patriarchal oppression” which feminism never addresses, or acknowledges, as it pursues its endless objectification of women.
Since you are clearly of that camp, and insist you want men and women to come together, why don’t you start asking what feminism is doing about real equality, rather than what men need to do for women in every facet of life.
Like a bicycle needs a fish.
Assume responsibility for your gender’s choices or be an object “acted upon” by the ones you want to be responsible for women’s choices.
You can’t have both.
As “post-game MGTOW” that is exactly how living with women is.
Short: Not worth the benefit which they will always turn into an “benefit” for good behavior.
Sure, there may be others called NAWALTs but in honestly, in all of my almost 40 years I have not found one … and I did try.
My life is so much better now without females.
I’d much rather send every single woman to the planet of Mars instead of having to fucking live on the same ground as them. Let the men have Earth, and the women have Mars. We would be a heluva lot better off that way.
No, seriously, we would be better off. Us men would do just fine. It’s the women who would be fucked and wouldn’t do anything. Ever watch a survival show where men and women are segregated? The men actually get shit done! The women just bitch at each other and do nothing.
By the way, I have no “entitlement mind” when it comes to women. In fact, I would rather they fuck off and leave me alone! I don’t want them around me. Women are very dangerous and could ruin a guy’s life in a second if they really wanted to! So why risk it? I’m happy being single and alone. If I need a companion, I’m getting myself a dog.
#MGTOW
” gives women a bad name and just reinforces their beliefs that women are manipulative and narcissistic”
Well women are manipulative and narcissistic. glad you finally got the point.
Wow, you’re crude! Very lady like.
You wrote that you like men, what a bad joke! You refer to men as “idiots”. I don’t know what your warped definition of the word ‘like’ is but you certainly don’t respect men. You are ridiculously entitled if you were not then you would not be stating your female opinion in a primarily male forum. You assume moral superiority.
troll? Am I correct?
I am not blaming the girls – judging from the kind of “men” those MGTOW are…
MGTOW is a rational male response to modern feminism. We’re not trying to change anything or anyone. We are not asking for special privileges or affirmative action or financial assistance. We are saying “We quit” to socially imposed expectations and walking away. Feminists do not away. Equating MGTOW with feminism shows a glaring ignorance of what these terms really mean. As the feminists say all the time “I’m not doing your research for you.” Google is your friend.
We can just look at your face that you give us when we look your way and instantly tell. Men are not stupid. We’re just portrayed that way to appeal to women’s vanity. We are not the black-and-white minds; you women are!
Also, what makes this article’s author think you’re rejecting us, rather than us as men actually avoiding you as women?
Very dangerous? Could you be thinking of Gary Dotson, who served 10 undeserved years in the slammer before being cleared of false rape charges, an incident that started in 1977?
I think you’ve confused men with women. Your post is frankly insane.
If men are saying they are content being by themselves how are they displaying a sense of control over women? I’m trying to make sense out of that statement. And how is not wanting a relationship being misogynistic? I don’t think I’m actually MGTOW but I certainly understand the thought process. Why do you think a man has to hate women to not want one of his own? What’s the point of trying to be a boyfriend if you have no wish to be a husband? Its not like you need a wife to have s3x these days. So what’s our motivation? Nagging? tough attitudes? Disrespect? Lies? The sure fact that you put yourself in a financially liable position as soon as you say I do??? I’m cool. Women get on your nerves…money always makes me smile though. Its not an even trade. I’ve never met a woman worth half and if one is out there I hope she stays TF away from me.
You say that shit as if it’s true. Men are better off when women leave them the fuck alone.
Amen.
No. You’re a typical person who labels people with differing opinions a “troll”. People like you are known as “arrogant assholes”. The reason you are an arrogant asshole (and it’s sad that you need this explained to you) is that by labeling someone a troll you are implying that the only reason someone could possibly disagree with you is that they must be there to stir up trouble as you’re obviously never wrong.
As if you’re one to judge what makes a man. You’re an opinionated nobody. Gtf off your high horse and stop labeling people before they start pointing out your obvious weight issues.
I was a mgtow before it ever had a name. I gave up on women almost 14 years ago. Here’s the thing: there’s nothing for you to understand. We just realize that women are a waste of our time. That’s all. We just don’t want anything to do with you. The world has everything to offer us. Why would we throw it all away on anyone? You only offer drama and b.s. and nothing a man needs. We all realize by now you only care about yourselves anyway.
Lol if I tried to understand every irrational person I met, I’d have lost my mind. I’m not particularly interested in guessing games. But by the sounds of it you’re actually the one who only thinks about himself.
Ooh look.. a sore MGTOW virgin.
Yes this person is an arrogant asshole and not the guy who literally just ranted about how “every woman is bad hur dur”.
Your confirmation bias is sickening.
That is the whole point, to think about yourself, and take care of yourself. To become selfish, and not a benefit to others.
Yep. Exactly.
Maybe, thats because you get all the money and benefits when divorce happens, which is why men, warned other men, of said things? just an idea, seems logical no? and now you come here and call these men said crybabies…. see the difference?
on the rag are you?
Whether you seem to be a bitch, or not, you are.
Shut up you ignorant feminist pig.
nevar!!!!! you smelly poophead!
I’ve at last met my match
She made herself look like shit and then coming and telling men to find “good women” and she is? Giving a fucking break that girl is projecting herself onto everyone because everyone here knows shes the real fucking idiot and really doesn’t care about rational arguments and deep intellect. Fucking dumb bitch.
Send the women to the sun instead.
That’s pretty much the point; we avoid the fate of becoming a husband however possible, because in today’s society, husbands are pretty much a legal slave trade in the Western world. That’s to say, that a wife is simply a female slaveowner, and her husband is her slave. Thus, marriage is the act of selling a man into slavery to a woman.
Amen brother.
Femininism = Apartheid 2.0
Lol and these guys say women can’t be logical. They wouldn’t know logic if it slapped them in their huge ego. So sad. That’s all it really is. Just sad. Sad that they don’t realize how much bigger their ego is than the guys they shit on for getting along with women. I just feel bad for them. Truly. They’re obviously just really sensitive people with big egos who have had unfortunate experiences with women.
But women can’t be logical right? It’s against their nature right? Lol pretty sure it’s you who can’t be logical. But your ego is so big you can’t even see that. Take some shrooms and lose that ego. Or just read some philosophy other than mgtow
Unfortunately a lot of them got to this point because of truly crappy things that happened in their life 🙁 I feel for them… But my sympathy ends where their malice begins… and often times, hurt feelings turn into malice.
I may sound like a hippie, but I wish we could all just get along >.< …. Or stop trying to make things worse for others.
But yea.. this “all women are evul stupid creatures who are driven by their animalistic desires and instincts” is just willful ignorance. Its insulting to intelligence to pretend to not know that people exist on the entire spectrum. Its just that its so easy and satisfying to be hateful and angry… I dont exactly understand why. But in the long run it just tears at you.
Ya but truly crappy things happen to tons of people. The difference here is these guys don’t take responsibility for their situation. They choose to play the blame game instead of realize that people can be all sorts of bad, not just women. They also don’t realize that people can be all sorts of good as well. (yes, even women, guys) I’m definitely a hippie at least in the mind and I think love is always the answer. I can’t let it stop where their malice starts. You have to keep loving them. Show them that people can be decent even if you treat them like shit.
take some mushrooms and lose that ego. . ?
Mushrooms have been known (I can vouch) to kill your ego or at least put it in check. It’s called ego death. Scariest thing i’ve ever experienced, but also the most beneficial thing I’ve ever experienced. Obviously you can’t completely kill the ego, but you can keep it at bay. I don’t recommend just jumping into it. I did a year of research before I did it. Sounds extreme but the experience and following inner peace speaks for itself. For me at least. But hey that’s just me! I’m just one person with my own experiences. Take that with a grain of salt.
Good place to start reading if you’re interested in the concept.
https://www.shroomery.org/4018/Howto-Ego-Death
I don’t know, i’m just egotistical. The older I get, the more I become aware of my faults or at least am able to face up to them. One weakness I have is that I don’t deal well with drugs. I’m too weak to handle them. .
Oh, please shove your gynocentric “love” where the sun don’t shine, you tedious White-Knight.
Shit on you for your White-Knighthood. I’ve had more bad experiences with wuss men like you than I’ve even had with entitled women.
So using my own intuition instead of needing a fucking cult to decide for me is bein a wuss? I think you have it backwards dude. Needing a cult to feel good about yourself is being a wuss. Writing off an entire gender of human beings because you had some bad experiences, is being a fucking WUSS. It’s being completely emotional. It’s NOT logic. It’s the opposite. Completely. And being a white-knight is blindly defending women. I’m not even defending women!!!! I’m attacking the ideals of a fucking cult, who happen to hate women. I’d do the same to a cult of women who hate men. If you don’t want people blindly defending women, don’t blindly HATE women!!! It’s the hate that gets me. It’s misplaced. Completely. You can never be truly free if you judge people. We are all mirrors.
lol. A “rational” male response. I think you mean emotional. Which is what you mgtows accuse women of being. You all have it so backwards. You have huge egos. Your ego makes you think that your emotional responses are “rational and logical”. The ego is a tricky mother fucker so i don’t neccesarily blame you. I just blame the way our culture loves to stroke the ego.
Your ego has to be so FUCKING HUGE for you to think that you can actually accurately tell what ANYONE on this whole fucking earth is thinking. How smart do you think you are? If you’re so smart then go read some fucking socrates or plato or aristotle and see how smart you feel after that. seriously, do it. If you’re so smart it shouldn’t be hard right?
THAT IS NOT LOGIC. THAT IS EGO. YOUR EGO MAKES YOU THINK WHATEVER YOU”RE DOING IN THE MOMENT IS LOGICAL AND RATIONAL. WHEN REALLY IT”S EMOTIONAL. SMH
if it’s so much better, then why isn’t that enough for your to stop bitching on the internet? If it’s SOOO much better, you shouldn’t need to project online.
Very LOGICAL assessment you’ve made there. It doesn’t have one single hint of being emotional. Nope, not one bit. smh. You’re all so terribly lost. If you want a different ideal to attach yourself to that can also take this pain away, check out Taoism. Not that i’m even a taoist myself or any social constructed label for that matter, but it’s a start if you’re feeling the pressures of society.
IT is amazing how feminists like you all do the same thing – use curse words, and howl down men who take action to remove toxicity like you from their lives. You have a serious problem, which you seme unable to recognise, let alone address. Enjoy your cats and boxed wine as you grow old .
Except all the pro MGTOW comments here are upvoted far more than the shrieking harpies like you. Nuff said.
Thought so, your ghatred stems form the fact you cant get a date. And this is MGTOW’s fault? LOLOLOL
you are a white knight. So i dont particularly care about your input.. Fact is women are by and large manipulative and narcissitic, and EVERY man knows that. that is the only game women have and it underlies their hypergamy. Most women do not achieve in the way men do, ie through hard work and dedication. Instead they “achieve” through emotional blackmail, cheating, and all sorts of manipulation. If women were capable of honorable achievement as men do, then the whole MGTOW thing wouldnt even concern them.
But it does concern them, because it takes away all their manipulative power. Sorry ladies and manginas like Jake, get used to it, the times are a changing.
Wow that’s mighty convenient for you. Anyone you don’t agree with you just label and dismiss them and their argument?! How mighty logical and rational of you! That’s totally not a feminine emotional reaction, cuz you’re such a macho guy that you always think logically and rationally lol. Smh
You seem to be lost. This thread was created so that people like Benoff can share their experience. It is not bitching as you make out, though it is not surprising that a female like you triggers over it. Your intolerance and snarkiness validate everything that the MGTOWs have said here. One only needs to do a search for “feminist cringe” on Youtube to get a quick insight of just how unhinged modern women are.
A female like me? Idk if that is supposed to be an insult, as I am not a woman, but I’m not offended if it is, because I don’t see women in a negative light like you do. And sometimes, sharing your experience IS bitching. I do it often, but it’s still bitching. I also wasn’t talking specifically about this thread, just how mgtows claim self improvement but also bitch and complain on forums constantly. Also, being intolerant to intolerance is not the same. If the tolerant tolerated the intolerant, intolerance would rule the world because the tolerant would just sit by watching it happen.
Also, do you think the people who say NAWALT are just liers? Or do you think it’s because you expect too much out of people and women
Lol everything about they way you post, and twist and invert arguments to suit your own agenda, suggests you are 100% female, or a mangina waiting for his sex operation to come through.
And the fact that you call discussion “bitching” proves your typical emotional female response.
If you dont see women in a negative light, you either are a virgin living in a basement, or a woman, or a pathetic blue-piller. Take your pick, but please stop whining with your victim mentality, darlin’. It’s not pretty.
IT is not a question of agreeing, but cognitive recognition. These are facts, and not open to interpretation. Clearly you lack life experience, as all men know these things of which pro MGTOWers speak, that is why the movement is growing. As Ive said, you must be a female, or a virgin living in a basement. Your “opinions” are worthless, and dismissed. At least you got that right.
Facts not open to interpretation? Do you realize what you’re saying? That is the OPPOSITE of science and nature. That is pure emotion and ego. Your ego is convincing you that you are right when TONS of physical evidence proves you wrong. You have to revert back to your cults beliefs to feel ok about it. I was born into a cult so i know exactly what to look for. They make you think that the movement is growing when it’s not at all. And what would you quantify that with anyways?! Also how do you quantify your so called “facts?” HOW??? With statistics? Because those are fabricated to prove a point all the time. Just because you believe these stats doesn’t make them more true. Just because other people believe them doesn’t make them more true either. You say I twist everything to fit my viewpoint, but then what the fuck do you think you’re doing??? I just happen to be using actual logic instead of emotion like youre used to, so you feel like i’m twisting it when really you just have nothing to respond with so you revert to reciting attacks from a cult website. You have not used ANY logic here. Only emotion. Don’t get it twisted.
Lol, you call me a woman and at the same time use 0 logic whatsoever. The way I argue or present points could literally suggest endless reasons for doing so. Your narrow minded ideals and huge ego cloud your perception so much that you think “this” suggests “that” when really, that’s just what conclusion you came to and your huge ego validates that. Also, I didn’t call discussion bitching, and even if I did, just because you chose to see that as proving my femininity, doesn’t make it so. I’m telling you, your ego is just too damn big for there to be any room for any other way of thinking. Just because I don’t see women in a negative light might suggest those ideas to you, but there are endless possibilities as to why i don’t. You and your narrow perception decided to attach that reasoning to it. Maybe you’ve always seen women in a negative light, and that’s why they rejected you and treated you like shit!! Maybe you’re not the “nice” guy you think you are. Maybe deep down you never respected women and regarded sex as too important so that’s why they saw you the way they did. All I have to say is, take some mushrooms and lose your ego and then come back and tell me everything is so black and white. Or hell, just read some socrates or plato or aristotle or diogenes or hell even nietzsche!!! I know you mgtows cite him frequently but you are totally missing his point. Another thing, and this is something I see frequently when debating with mgtows, you all tend to completely ignore valid points and instead revert to ad hominem reasoning. Maybe it’s because you’re all emotion and you think you’re all logic.
>”I can’t talk to a guy without wondering whether or not he hates women; and men can’t talk to me without wondering whether or not I hate them.”
Good. You’re getting a small taste of the confusion men have had to live with for the last 40 years, at least, when they dare to approach a woman in public. Enjoy your new reality. Enjoy what your gender created. If you need someone to blame for how the world will always be from now on, blame Feminists. Not us.
>”And being a white-knight is blindly defending women. I’m not even defending women!!!!”
Says he who’s upvoted every. single. comment. on this board by a woman and/or expressing a Feminist viewpoint. Why are you White-Knights always so dishonest about your agenda? Why not just admit: “I’m Jake the Misandrist and all I do 24/7 is DEFEND women!!!”?? I’d actually have some respect for you if you weren’t such a liar when it comes to your ‘women’s studies’ background. Try convincing your Galpals in the movement that they’re all just “mirrors” of men. See if you still have a head on your shoulders when you walk out. No female will ever understand what makes me tick, and I’ll never have a clue what women think, nor do I ever care to. We might as well live on different planets. Having no use for something/preferring the complete absence of something from your life is not the same thing as “hate” of said thing, at all. Be honest for 2 seconds and admit all the things you have no need of and purposely avoid. According to you, we’re all just misogynists. Then by default you’re all misandrists. If society has a need for feminism, then there’s an equal need for masculinism. Unless you’d like to admit that feminism isn’t actually about equality, but a supremacy movement. Hopefully one day you will wake up and realize you still have balls before they’ve been surgically removed. As long as there is still manhood there is hope for you to wake up, bro.
Funny thing is, you ARE on the same planet, and nothing you do will change that unless you kill yourself or every woman in existence, which I don’t recommend either one of those. A solution? Acceptance of the world and finding true inner peace free from judgement. Judging someone else is judging yourself. And tell me, what’s the point of having a penis if you’re not going to use it?! Is it a trophy? Because nature didn’t have that in mind I hope you know. Also, I have no women’s studies background. I have not gone to college. I see the world through my own lense and take all viewpoints into consideration. Just so you know, regardless of what it SHOULD be called, feminism IS about equality. It is. Just because some people take it too far does NOT change the definition of the word. Also, I never said women were mirrors of men or that men were mirrors of women. We are all mirrors of eachother. Of every person we meet. And waking up is a matter of perspective. To me it means not closing myself off to one ideaology and considering and questioning EVERYTHING. I think to you, waking up means coming to the same conclusion about the world as you did.
Also, upvoting something doesn’t mean I’m defending them. Just that I agree with the points they’re making.
And lastly lol, they’re doing a fine job defending themselves and with much more logic and less emotion I will say
blah blah blah…just more female/mangina triggering which of course leads the argument off to irrelevant tangents – such typical female behaviour. All that needs to be said to answer your repetitive mindless questions , is that they have already been answered. The fact that you lack the cognitve ability to see that, nor understand simple facts (you’ve admitted you are incapable of undersntanding what a fact is), proves that you have no voice here. Go join a womans forum. your method or argument “Im not emotional , you are” is the stuff of Monty Python sketches and kindergarten playgrounds. Perfect for a female. Oh and all your commnents are getting ZERO votes, unlike the POVs that contradict you, which get many. OWNED!. Bye.
If you are not a woman, then why do you behave exactly like one? Are you gay? Transgender? you certainly trigger a lot, just look at the 2 voluminous rants you made to my last post. Methinks you’re a female who just cant cope with the fact the men arent accepting female privilege anymore. Attitudes and reactions like yours only strengthen MGTOW resolves. wake up to the new millenium Princess, and enjpy the single life your idiotic sisters fought for, because men owe you nothing, just like women owe us nothing. Women have nothing to offer men, except their vaginas, which we can buy 24×7 at the knock shop. Get used to the state of play, or else take your Cinderella dreams elsewhere, because George Clooney and his fat wallet are not coming (he’s a MGTOW btw). Enjoy.
Hey dude good job using emotion to refute 0 of my arguments. Do you not understand science and debate? You need some philosophy in your life if you think anything you said actually refuted anything I said. You didn’t address anything I said. That’s how a debate works. That’s how we’ve been advancing as a society. We didn’t advance by using ad hominem arguments. You literally used ad hominem for every single one of my points. You say, you’re “this” or “that” so therefor your argument is invalid. NO. Not how logic works I’m sorry you don’t see that. An argument/point stands on its own regardless of the person saying it. You have to attack the points I’m making, not me, otherwise YOUR points are the ones that are invalid. Also, if you think a point needs an upvote in order to be true, then I really can’t have this conversation anymore because you refuse to use real logic. How many people “upvoted” the idea that the world was flat? Did that make it more true? Absolutely not. And also, I’m literally giving you reason upon reason as to why i think you’re being emotional but you refuse to address those and instead revert to ad hominem. Come on dude, i’m trying here. I will leave off with asking you to look at yourself in the eyes in the mirror for as long as you possibly can and ask yourself if you are truly happy.
Blah blah blah, Princess continues to loser her shit. Your posts are classic tl;dr, so sorry, couldnt be bothered reading it. You dont have to “believe” me, Western men have spoken. Women all think they are Gods gift to men but have impossibly high standards for men to meet. Laughable. Men have responded with a resounding “fuck off”. Fuck marriage, fuck kids, fuck relationships. Perhaps buy some more ice-cream, dildos, boxed wine and cats. Its your future darlin’.Please try and deal with it, instead of your endless emotional rants. You’re beginning to look very desperate and needy. And yes Im happier without a woman in my life, more so than anytime where there has been one in it. Less sex overall, but more variety. Win win!
How does that change anything? It just means I stumbled upon a circle jerk. Shrieking harpy? What does that even mean?
So you’re just going to pretend that Cody is a rational human being and not an arrogant asshole?
Pretend? His comment made perfect sense. I can see through the overdone metpahor, perhaps you cant. Men dont need women for anything but sex. All a man needs is a whore, and for social interaction he only needs other men . Women are largely redundant. Women cannot come up with one reason why men should give them any access to their resources, or even their time. Deal with it.
Emotion is “Jake” Richey’s no 1 word….thats all she can come up with in her war that she is waging here. Trying to project onto the guys and intimate they have emotional issues. What a stupid gynocentric way of arguing. Grow up bitch.
It clearly didn’t make perfect sense as you’re already contradicting it by including whores in your example while he stated no women period. Unless by whores you mean other men. I don’t judge whatever floats your boat men probably make better sexually companions for you as well.
You’re an idiot. You’re taking Cody literally, when in fact there is no way that all of Earths female inhabitants are going to leave, are they? Grow up, he is speaking symbolically.
Of course you have to round out your little feminist rant with an attempt to goad my ego by implying I am gay. lol Fail. Companions means friends, not sex partners, as again you “should know this” if you were an adult, but of course you may be a little immature as it seems from your comments.
I fuck women. Sometimes my neighbours, but mostly the local whore houses where I fuck about 24 women a year down there. Very cheap overall compared to supporting a gold digger, oops I mean a fat unkempt slob of a wife. Cant beat 20 something pu55y down at the knock shop! 😉
“His comment made perfect sense”
“You’re taking him literally”.
Symbolically stating that humanity would be better off without females.
Yes I’m the immature one when your first reply was herp derp look at all Der thumbs up on pro mgtow posts that must mean what they be sayin is da truth. This is an echo chamber that’s literally as fucking stupid as someone from a feminist blog telling me that their right because of thumbs up and support from their own members…
I missed the part where I asked about your supposed sex life?
Also you clearly can’t fucking read because I typed “men would probably make better sexually companions for you as well” I didn’t say that’s what you meant by companionship.
Also feminist rant? That fucking settles it you are a retard and you have no fucking idea what a feminist is if you think my previous comment had anything to do with feminism.
Actually it is quite evident you are the retard. If Cody’s comment doesnt make sense to you, well too bad, you have retarded and impaired cognition. I also note your reply is full of scorn and derision, and of course this is the usual level feminists sink to when they have lost the argument, but feel compelled to have the last word (in typical female style….lol)
Congrats. you’ve stooped to the same behaviour which red pill MGTOW men find so tediously repulsive. Validation enough that MGTOW makes sense.
Many women are known to give insincere facial expreßions to stroke the male ego (and cultivate his id and even undermine his superego.) And i think those three black bastards would agree, that women are a pox on the male mind.
Thanks to Feminism, it seems that most MEN want balance, but what women want, whilst under the cult of Feminism, is total rule by females.
Oh, no; they don’t think they’re God’s gift to us men, but that they’re gods themselves, among us!
The fact that you believe you are gods among men, is acting like children in itself.
Are men not a “pox” on the female mind? There is always a counter to any argument. It’s the yin and the yang. We all have both within us. We just have to balance both. Only a sith deals in absolutes.
Women cause men more trouble than that caused by men, for women. If you don’t believe me, then the fact that Western laws often tilt the field in favour of women, is enough hint at that former detail. I will do anything to restore the balance between the sexes, but if the female supremacist culture gets too-far ingrained, i shall have to eradicate women.
Siths are ironically a race of their own in the Star Wars universe; those we coloquially call “Sith” are actually dark Jedi.
That’s neither here nor there. Ok only dark Jedi deal in absolutes.
Wtf? Eradicate women? Ya tell me you don’t have a messiah complex lol. And it’s actually hint enough that men have suppressed women for such a long time that we have to swing it the other way for it to ever level out. Not that I necessarily agree with it but I don’t get how you actually have that much meaning on your life to where you think you’re the guy that’s gonna make any damn bit of difference. Take some mushrooms and lose your ego. Watch the show Cosmos. Do anything to get out of your own head and into the universe. Why are we here? If you don’t think there’s a reason, then why can we ask why?! If you think there’s a reason, why do you feel that?
The fact that you believe you are the messiah of buddhism is acting like a child. (oh did I just make an accusation about your internal state that I have no business making because Im likely wrong? Yea dont do that either)
Unfounded accusations are an unintelligent, lazy and fallacious way of trying to make yourself seem superior. But only other parrots will actually think you had a point here.
I think if a guy chooses not to date, or go MGTOW and still date or whatever, that is his business. Society does not own men just like society does not own women. In fact, if a man or a woman chooses not to date that is there own business. In society we have to obey the law and pay our taxes. Men have an additional responsibility of registering for the draft. Other than that they are free to do as they please. I don’t know why Return of Kings is attacking MGTOWs. Men should have a right to decide for themselves.
I agree with you Sid. I don’t even know why Return of Kings wrote this article. Why should they care if Men go their own way? It is a free country
Kinta, I don’t think these MGTOW guys hate you. They made a decision that they don’t want to date. I think they would be very happy to be left alone. These forums may seem hostile but you don’t have to look at them. I don’t know why MGTOW would be a subject of interest to women anyway. It’s just some guys opting out, no big deal
Thats true 🙂
You are the one being intolerant towards a group that wants to be left alone.
You don’t really live on this planet Earth, do you?
You accuse others of being illogical, emotional and egocentric, yet you have displayed all those qualities yourself. You simply don’t understand this movement, and you are afraid of what you don’t understand, so you attack it with lies and deliberate misconceptions.
He also loves “ego”.
You are talking about acceptance, when you can’t even accept some people being tired of something and wanting to be left alone?
So where exactly is your love for MGTOW?
That’s hateful.
That’s sexist.
You obviously can’t kill ego with shrooms, you’ve demonstrated it perfectly.
You don’t get it. MGTOW had enough of the anger and the hate and want to be left alone. Why does that offend you?
Being intolerant of an intolerant hate group? Fine by me. Intolerance to intolerance is not intolerance. Like I’ve said before, if the tolerant tolerated the intolerant, intolerance would rule.
And if they want to be left alone, what’s with all the forums? If you were truly strong enough to go your own way, you wouldn’t need instructions from a cult on how to do it. If you want to be left alone, that’s fine by me, I often prefer that as well. But I’m not going to lie to myself and blame my problems on women. That’s not going your own way. That’s going a very specific way of hatred.
Difference is, and it’s huge, they’re using emotion to attack people. I’m using it to attack people attacking people. And i’m not using lies or misconceptions. I still stand behind everything I’ve said. I do fully understand the movement. It’s very intriguing to me psychologically why people block themselves out from interaction with the world. I’m in a similar boat, I feel like a lot of our society is pretty fucking backwards, so I do choose to opt out most of the time, but I don’t sit there resenting or hating people, because that does NOTHING positive for my life. Not one thing. If you were truly about self mastery, youd remove resentment, judgement, comparisons, and hatred from your life. Use your own intuition. Listen to yourself. NOT A CULT. I personally grew up in a cult and have done insane amounts of research on cult tactics and this is absolutley a cult. Just because a cult happens to have beliefs that remove personal responsibility, doesn’t mean any of it is true. They’ve just posed a way for you to dump all of your insecurities and incapabilities on someone else. It just makes you feel better about failing. The thing is, everyone fails. Everyone. Some just give up at some point. I just don’t reccommend that if you ever want to be happy. Have you read Nietzsche? The tormentor becomes the tormented. Even if MGTOW caught on hard and EVERY single male became one, would the world be a better place? Would your vision of the world really be a better one? The world can never be ONE thing. It’s just not possibile. It’s an abyss.
It’s not that I can’t accept someone being tired of something, it’s the absolute hatred. It’s the fact that mgtows blame EVERY one of their downfalls on other people. They can’t see the things they did to make something happen. It takes two to tango. It’s that mgtows think they’re gods gift and think that anyone who rejects them is just mean or manipulative.
Where is my love for hatred and bigotry? I’ll tell you actually. It’s right here. Me even thinking to comment on this was to change peoples minds. Not hate them. It came from being truly sad that these people couldn’t find another way to deal with their misery. I admit that I’m human and I get fired up about shit but I did not come here to bash. I came here because a dear friend of mine expressed his views and it killed me inside. It made me think really hard about why someone would accept this extremely narrow view of the world. So while I don’t agree or accept this view, I don’t hate the people who think this way. I only feel for them. If the world were more accpeting of all types of people, we wouldn’t have this issue.
The thing is, the ego doesn’t stay dead unless you actually die. It CAN kill your ego, or at least put it in check, not permanently, but it can help you step outside yourself and think in different ways and consider way more possibilities as to what the universe is even here for. If the ego is fully lost forever, then so is sanity. It’s the only reason for doing anything. So you’re absolutely right, my ego isn’t dead. Not anymore. And that absolutley has everything to do with why I’ve come across as a dick. Not denying that. The ego is the trickiest motherfucker, but happy is he who overcomes it.
A group that wants to be left alone is not an intolerant hate group. Someone who doesn’t let them being alone is an intolerant hater, that’s you.
I came to the same conclusion as MGTOW on my own, I just realized yesterday that there is a movement.
You can take your ego and your hatred and move along now please.
You can’t accept MGTOW. Period. Only your perception of MGTOW is correct. It’s not a fact “that mgtows blame EVERY one of their downfalls on other people” and “that mgtows think they’re gods gift and think that anyone who rejects them is just mean or manipulative”, so please stop pushing your little opinion on people who clearly don’t need it.
It’s okay for you to attack, but not for others, I see. Also, “the world can never be ONE thing”, so why are you attacking this chunk of diversity?
Withdrawal isn’t a display for hatred and bigotry. Your communication on the other hand definitely is.
The thing is, your ego is about the size of a supermassive black hole, don’t try to explain it away.
Buzzwords = bullshit.
Stop being such a feminist.
You can’t have it both ways, joker.
That’s right. So, don’t people have the right and reasonable justification to quit the game of bullshit? First I get taunted and accused of things I’ve never done or supported, and when I withdraw myself from the arena I get a dose of the same degrading behavior which I’ve been wrongfully accused of.
But if you really think it’s best to push around those who already have declared peaceful resistance because they don’t want to be pushed around anymore, please carry on. Nothing bad ever occured when people acted this way.
Dude if you don’t think MGTOW is absolutely an intolerant hate group, then you need to do a little more research. Especially if you just found out about it yesterday. Check out MGTOW reddits, forums and other channels at which they endlessly spew hatred at women. You might change your mind. Hell even the main website is riddled with hatred, false accusations and fake statistics, all geared towards swaying people to swear off or hate women. They have no intention of being left alone. They want to spread this message to everyone. They want the whole world to be mgtow. It’s a CULT. That’s what they do. If they wanted to be left alone, there wouldn’t be outlets online for them to complain about their failures and build up their delusion that all women are out to manipulate men and make their lives terrible. Cults always need communities to thrive. If mgtow wasn’t a cult, they wouldn’t have a community.
Lol me? ME stop pushing MY opinion on people who don’t need it? That could be said about the whole MGTOW movement!!! If it’s about going your own way, why try to convert other people? Why go online and complain? And just because my assessment of MGTOWs disagrees with yours, doesn’t make either of us any more or less right. It’s both just opinion. And you’re right, I was a little extreme with the words I chose to use. I still believe that most MGTOWS do feel that way, based solely on my encounters with them, not just my own narrow perception or predisposition to it. But ya, if y’all weren’t pushing your little opinions on me, I would absolutely feel no reason at all to push back.
Yes, absolutely. That’s like saying it wasn’t ok for the US to attack Nazi Germany. Attacking someone who attacks others is 100% more justified. Look at history. When does it ever look down on people who defend the rights of everyone? I’m not even attacking you’re right to do any of this. I’m simply picking apart the logic used to justify it in hopes that you’ll change your mind and stop living in such a reactive way.
You’re right, withdrawal isn’t a display of hatred and bigotry. If that was all that MGTOWS did, then I’d fully be on the same page as you. But they DON’T just withdrawal. They get online and spew hatred. I get that not all MGTOWS are like that, but can’t you use that same logic for women and every single human being on this planet? We’re not all the same. Neither are women.
A big ego is thinking you can just state something like that with zero explanation or reasoning. You can’t just say something and have it stick. You have to back it up with rational thinking. Who’s to say your ego isn’t bigger than mine and yours just got offended so you had to send it back my way?
Just like the feminazis evolved from the first misconceptions of the women’s rights movement. You did mention something about mirroring, right? And you’re proving my point. I decided to “go my own way” after being wrongfully associated with intolerance, and now the act of turning away from society is reason enough to be wrongfully accused of intolerance again. And you really expect people to not to be pissed.
What you’re saying is MGTOW should accept false allegations and don’t complain about it. Also, MGTOW should be the one (or one of ???) movement, that just shouldn’t go online, or anywhere else for that matter, to show presence. That’s fascist.
Also, you’re complaining about others complaining, so what exactly is your goal in doing so?
Now you’re comparing MGTOW with nazis. That’s funny. When you say I’m living in a reactive way, what do you think I’m reacting to?
Not all the same, you say? Except, you won’t stop stating all MGTOW to be intolerant. Feminazis call themselves women’s rights activists, yet their goal isn’t equality at all. But it isn’t sexism or intolerance of any kind if it’s done to man, right?
You’re hilarious. Your description fits exatly my observation of your statements. My ego may be huge, but I’m only offended by all of these false accusations and associations.
What? What misconceptions could there be with giving everyone equal rights? Anything that came about other than equal rights came from extremists. No different than mgtows. And ya, not what I meant about mirroring… And how do you know it was wrongful association? Are you sure you don’t just think you’re a way better person than you actually are?
What false allegations are you accepting exactly? And i’m not saying groups like this shouldn’t be online, but if you are going to be online, don’t say you’re going your own way, because your own way is going online to complain. What do you expect to accomplish from that? This concept actually intrigued me at first, going your own way, until I went on forums and saw how much misplaced hatred I saw. If you want to go your own way, do it! I’m doing the same thing. I’m just not blaming my problems on women or actively trying to avoid human beings or degrade them.
You mean other misconceptions than “it’s not sexism / harassment if it’s done to man”? You really think I’m the one who needs to do their research? I beg to differ. So, MGTOW are extremists, you say? Also, if you want to call me a bad person, just go ahead, but remember what you said about statements being made without reasons.
Absolutely I’m comparing them to nazis. Nazi’s thought they were gods gift and that everyone else was below them. Mgtows think the same thing about men…. well… men that share the same view as them. I’m not operating under misconceptions about mgtows. I’ve seen with my own eyes, these mgtows expressing these beliefs. Most of them think that women are the scourge of the earth. They’re not just going their own way. They’re actively trying to bring females down… and anyone who disagrees with them. Maybe you’re not like that, but I’m sorry, most other mgtows are.
What false allegations? You just wrongfully accused me of blaming my problems on women, idiot.
Dude, I’m going by the MGTOWS website material, not an assumption. And I’d say the same thing to Feminiazis!!! It IS sexism and intolerance when done to a man!!! Anyone saying anything else doesn’t understand the definition of those terms.
But what’s the point in going in the exact opposite direction? What will that accomplish? Has that ever worked in the history of history? You have to work with what you have and be the change you want to see. Do you want everyone in the world to be separated? We can all go our own way and all still get along. It’s possible. Through inspiring people to be tolerant, it is possible. The only thing keeping us from that is people who say it’s impossible.
Well then, fuck you very much. Go on ignoring the feminazis and keep repeating their dishonest propaganda.That doesn’t change the fact, that it’s you who complains about your own wrongful accusations about people who want to be left alone and be themselves. It’s the feminazis who call for genocide and mass castration. So maybe, if you keep up being a good soldier and donate your testicles, you may live and become a concentration camp watchdog one day.
Why are you offended? Are you not secure with your beliefs? If you were, my accusations and associations wouldn’t be getting to you. You’d be able to just say, well, he’s wrong, I’m not such and such, and it wouldn’t effect you. Don’t be offended, that’s not my intention. I’m not trying to bring you personally down. I just don’t think you realize how many mgtows think exactly what I’ve been saying. I can quote them if you’d like
That’s the point, MGTOW (not the male supremacists you’re talking about) don’t want to accomplish anything. The species doesn’t want to heal and thrive, so we don’t have the desire to fix what doesn’t want to be fixed, and we sure as fuck don’t have the desire to take the blame for it anymore. So why don’t you just go and save the fucking world in cooperation with those who claim to do the same?
Like I said, those misconceptions came from extremists. And you might have misunderstood me. I didn’t at all call you a bad person. I asked you a question that prompted you to evaluate yourself. It was about being better than you think you are, not being bad alltogether. Thats something i struggle with. I often think I’m a better person than i’m actually being. It’s called the ego. It clouds thinking. Everyone has one. Don’t feel bad (not that you would) about your ego getting in the way. Just be aware of it.
You associate yourself with mgtows, so actually, you did it yourself. I accused mgtows, not you personally. When mgtows say, you’ll be problem free if you don’t associate with women, that’s kind of implying that they’re the cause of problems.
I explicitly said that I’m not ignoring feminazis. But how are you better for going in the exact opposite direction? It’s not what side you’re on. It’s how far on that side you are that makes you “evil” or what have you. There’s a middle ground. You have to find it. No extremists are ever right. You’re confusing me with someone on “their” side. I’m not on a side other than the side of human beings. The side of planet earth. I’m in the middle. You have to find peace in the chaos. Peace is in the middle.
How does the resolution of not accepting wrongful accusations display insecurity? Are you telling me I can’t be sentenced for something I didn’t commit? What exactly is reason enough to be justifiably offended, if it’s not being wrongfully accused of something?
Who are you to say what the species wants? How are you in any way the spokesperson for the human race? What about the people who do want it to heal and thrive? You’re hindering their progress. And no ones blaming you. How can any one person take the blame for an entire group of people? You’re feeling blame that’s not there. Possibly because you fail to see what your ego is convincing you of. That the species doesn’t want to be fixed and that people are blaming you. You can’t give up man. The world can be saved. With love and tolerance of EVERYTHING in it.
Since I turned away from society I only struggle with those who want to place me inside a box I don’t belong and blame me for things I didn’t do / support. I’d say I’m pretty aware of a lot, thanks for your concern.
You’re only being blamed for not being part of the solution. Not being part of the problem.
No, I’m telling you if you really didn’t commit it, you shouldn’t be offended. Not that there still wouldn’t be consequences. Being offended in any capacity absolutely stems from being insecure.
So basically you’re really proud of giving up. Everyone tries to put things in boxes. It’s the way the mind works and tries to make sense of things. We can only work from our frame of reference. That’s why we have to expand our frame of reference, not shrink it.
Also, you’re also trying to put things in boxes. You’re not as different from everyone as you think you are. We are all “others” at some point and with some things we believe.
“Admit it. You aren’t like them. You’re not even close. You may
occasionally dress yourself up as one of them, watch the same mindless
television shows as they do, maybe even eat the same fast food
sometimes. But it seems that the more you try to fit in, the more you
feel like an outsider, watching the “normal people” as they go about
their automatic existences. For every time you say club passwords like
“Have a nice day” and “Weather’s awful today, eh?”, you yearn inside to
say forbidden things like “Tell me something that makes you cry” or
“What do you think deja vu is for?”. Face it, you even want to talk to
that girl in the elevator. But what if that girl in the elevator (and
the balding man who walks past your cubicle at work) are thinking the
same thing? Who knows what you might learn from taking a chance on
conversation with a stranger? Everyone carries a piece of the puzzle.
Nobody comes into your life by mere coincidence. Trust your instincts.
Do the unexpected. Find the others…” – Timothy Leary
Don’t forget about the other comment down there
That’s your prejudicial point of view. It’s not about blaming women and walking away from women, it’s about distancing from the roles and rules others want to force upon women AND men, especially those pushed by feminazis. I am not surprised that there are some admirable women openly fighing this bullshit, too.
Maybe men should stop being teenagers at the age of 30 and man up ? “I don’t want to be around” Take on the chin, lad. That’s what a man does.
That’s nice. I mean it. There are sure a lot of people who could use the inspiration from those lines. I’m not exactly sure what you think about me, but I know you are wrong for the most part. I avoid categories like “good” and “evil”.
Unlike you, I am not a joker. I have very little patience for beta men that feel that “life cheated them” but who take no time to fix their issues. We all have to do it ourselves, lad. We don’t get anything for free. So chin up, man up.
That might be what it is for you. I wouldn’t call you a traditional mgtow and I wouldn’t say you fully adhere to what they’re about. They usually end with them just calling me a woman and fuck women and they’re all manipulative sluts and that shit. But i’d say this, they’re only forced upon you if you let them. It’s about how we react to all of these forced roles. There will always be people on both sides. Always. The feminazi’s don’t have as big of a grip as you think they do. I think a lot of that is percieved. I see it too, but not everything is always a consipiracy. Sometimes its just a reflection of society. But you can’t just lay down if you have a problem with it. You have to be that change you want to see.
I didn’t claim that, so fuck you, again. But I’ve been observing for decades now. I point out what mankind does, so are you telling me mankind does something else? And then, another fuck you, asshole, accusing me of hindering anything. You know shit about me and what I’ve been doing for how long. Stop insinuating-
As do I, which is why I put it in quotations. Just replace it with whatever you feel feminazi’s are, if you don’t like the word evil. I get it, I don’t either.
In opposition to you. You are part of the problem. You fucking don’t understand what I’m telling you. It’s my turn to assume something about you, I’m sure you’re very young. Do you have more substantiated suggestions for solutions than those above?
Dear god man, i’m sorry, I didn’t mean to hit a nerve. I’m just saying what I feel. This is how we grow as a species. We argue, with both parties leaving more informed than before. You actually did claim that, “the species doesn’t want to heal and thrive, so we don’t have the desire to fix what doesn’t want to be fixed,” I was just responding to what you said.
Also, you point out what mankind does? Do you not realize that you point out only YOUR perception of what mankind does? And regardless of what I think if mankind does something else, there are millions of people that see it differently, and are you just going to dismiss all of those human beings with their own sets of emotions and perceptions as stupid?
Show me those humans who aren’t justifiably offended by wrongful accusations. If you tell me I’m intolerant, that’s rather harmless. I know I’m not, those who know me know I’m not, fuck the rest. If you tell me I hate women and blame them it’s another thing. If you were right, what you aren’t, you could say I’m part of the problem. Since that’s what you’ve been doing this entire time, fuck you once more. You are part of the problem.
Do you not see how childish that is? “meh, now it’s my turn to assume something about you.” as if my whole intention was just to assume something about you to be an asshole. Age absolutely has nothing to do with it, unless I was young enough to be underdeveloped mentally, which I’m not. And where was that going? What does that have to do with what I said? It’s just going in circles now. And what would be more substantiated than everyone being conscious individuals, responsible for their own actions and emotions. The solution is always going to be very simple. Peace from within. That’s the only thing that will change the world. Peace, without ego, that is.
Really? and you accuse me of being young? “show me those humans” like really? How is that a valid argument? Whether “most people” would get offended has nothing to do with the logic of the statement. “most people” are assholes. “most people” are lazy and neglect self improvement. “most people” WOULD be offended by whatever it is you were offended by, still doesn’t negate the fact that being offended stems from being insecure.
You are so full of yourself. You are desperately trying to put me and others in a certain box. That is what this argument is about. I don’t need your fucking box. I’m not proud of anything besides my mind, stop with the assumptions already! If you want to fight for something that was lost decades ago, I’m not keeping you and I’m not forcing you to keep bashing those who were fucked with for too long.
You can’t help yourself, do you? Exactly when did I claim to be? All you do is talking shit dressed up as flowers, man.
“I shall crush my enemies without mercy!” <<< You mean, something like that?
And keep reciting your MGTOW rhetoric. I’m not trying to put you in a box. I’m trying to get you to see your own reasons for believing what you do. If that makes you feel like you’re in a box, then I’m sorry. I was however generalizing about most mgtows. If you don’t see yourself in the same boat as them, then don’t consider yourself mgtow!!!
Also, you’re putting yourself in a box. not me. I’m just saying things. You’re the one who feels trapped. And what do you know, blaming it on someone else (me)
That’s a good one! Finally, I had a laugh today. I see the situation as something more complex, but thanks for the tip anyway.
And I’m the one putting you in a box? Hmmm. ok man. You claimed to be different when you shut off society.
It’s not that complex: most MRA are just pissy little boys who still need to develop balls and get over stuff. They are just like most feminists.
Precisely. Someone is getting it.
It really can’t be the fault of those who want to be left alone. That’s why they decided to turn away in the first place. I don’t doubt there are many of those who use this foundation to support their own gain and spread hatred, then again that’s how the feminazis came to be. Coevolution of the worst kind. And again, it can’t be blamed on those who just don’t like this shit anymore.
I agree. If you truly are going your own way, then do it, I’m doing the same. But you don’t have to belong to a group to do that. It’s kind of counterintuitive to be in a group that goes their own way. Kind of a paradox. That IS being put in a box, willingly. At some point, your subconscious beliefs will conflict with your conscious desires. I’ll just end with this quote.
“You call yourself a free spirit, a “wild thing,”
and you’re terrified somebody’s gonna stick you in a cage. Well baby,
you’re already in that cage. You built it yourself. And it’s not bounded
in the west by Tulip, Texas, or in the east by Somali-land. It’s
wherever you go. Because no matter where you run, you just end up
running into yourself.”
Feminazis are fucking sick who need treatment. But as I stated earlier, mankind isn’t interested in change. For fuck’s sake, there’s still a discussion about evolution being real, it’s obvious that we just want to die off blaming ourselves.
Apology accepted. I really don’t have the desire to force something upon anyone, even if I’m convinced it’s for survival. I indeed deflated my ego and my own desire to be part of a thriving species. We can only fuck up our biosphere for so long.
Well, if heating up the planet is something that I only fantasise about, that’s great news! Many people are stupid and/or straight psychotic, but I’d say the main problem is that mankind is blinded by imaginary concepts. Stupidity, psychosis, war, crime, feminazis, MGTOW are nothing but symptoms, and I guess those are inevitable as the species spirals downwards.
Most of the time you’re assuming things about me which don’t fit, so please, I did wait until I was sure about it. Mankind had all means to thrive in a positive way and make a, for lack of a better word, healthy conscious decision about how it wanted to evolve, before I even was born. But that’s not something I learned in school or through the media. I only found out after I wasted decades on analyzing, learning and deducting, that all this has already been analyzed, learned and deducted. Mankind didn’t respond, not to them, not to me, and not to all the others. You can only fuck up your biosphere for so many generations.
Yep, it’s so obvious that everyone thinks the way you do… super obvious. It’s like, you know we’re fucked but don’t want to do anything to help it, and shit on those who do. I just don’t get it i guess.
Maybe you will get offended one day when you’re on trial because of false accusations. When you say “most people are assholes”, how shouldn’t that motivate me to turn away from society?
But regardless of whether you want to be, you are part of it. Unless you are completely self sustaining, you’re getting something from someone else. And even if you are self sustaining, the earth is giving you the tools. The earth also gave us humans. You can’t pick and choose what part of nature you want to be a part of. You are part of all of it whether you like it or not.
Your solution to that is to be a part of it? Now THAT is psychotic. It’s spiraling downwards because it’s full of people complaining that it’s spiraling downwards instead of doing something to change it. A world full of opinionated lazy people will never get the job done.
Don’t you see the arrogance you put on display? “I’m trying to get you to see your own reasons for believing what you do.” First of all, I don’t practice belief. Second, why are you convinced I don’t know my own reasons? I really doubt that you or anyone else could tell me something new about myself.
SURE about it? How have you come to that conclusion let alone be so sure about it? Couldn’t be your ego….
And all of a sudden, the world doesn’t have those means anymore? Or is it that you fail to see them any longer? And it’s not like we’re a told story yet man! Our book isn’t written. We are not extinct yet. Like I said, it’s because of all these people that think we’re fucked that we’re fucked. And we’re not even fucked yet! Don’t you see how that mentality is what got us here? It’s because people know what we have to do, but are too pussy to actually live it.
No. I’m just blaming you for making false statements based on flawed assumptions. Feeling trapped is relative for me. I don’t feel trapped by you.
I don’t think that makes me different, many others do the same.
Becoming offended only hinders your logical thinking mind. So, by not being offended, I will hopefully be able to see the situation more clearly and take the necessary steps to fix it instead of wasting my energy being emotional. Regardless of wether someone WOULD get offended or how normal it is, you can’t deny that it’s completely pointless. It’s something we’ve learned from our fucked up society.
I don’t feel myself addressed by your statement. I don’t see myself as MRA. I just want to clarify that my balls are off limits, that’s all.
I see. It’s certainly within my set.
Sorry, that’s not something you can escape. Belief is an evolutionary trait. It’s within us all. You believe that what you’re doing is right, at least for you. You can’t escape belief. You can only shape it. And your ego is what makes you think that someone else can’t analyze you. We actually analyze others better than ourselves for the most part. Kind of like the way you analyze things. It’s the ego dude. It makes you think that what ever conclusions you come to are correct. It’s from evolution. Our lives have to mean something or else we hope to die and that is against nature. If what conclusion you come to is wrong, then you’ve wasted your time and therfor a part of your life. It’s like plato’s allegory of the cave. We will do anything to be right and shun anyone who tries to open our minds, because then our lives are lies.
You sure about that? “I don’t need your fucking box.” also, being proud of your mind is being proud of everything you are. Being proud of who you are is not wrong. Thinking every conclusion you’ve come to, because YOU came to it, isn’t wrong either, just very impractical. Your subconscious is more powerful than you realize. It’s a whole other mind of it’s own.
You’re basically declaring that you’re different by doing that. the fact that others do it too doesn’t make your claims any different.
Well, I certainly don’t “belong”, since i never signed up anywhere. The way I see it, MGTOW can be expressed in a lot of ways, men irrationally blaming women aside. Blaming the foundation of the movement for the existence of the latter is like blaming women’s rights activists for the existence of feminazis. As for my inner conflicts, I am sure I’m aware of them all.
Then why do you associate with them? If associating isn’t belonging then idk what is. I used to belong to a cult. I was born into it. I tried to fit everything about the world into the context of it’s set of beliefs. Eventually everything shattered because I realized that ANY amount of conflict between my beliefs or lack therof and the beliefs pushed on me, constituted separation from the entire movement. If you even have one single difference in ideaology from the rest of the movement, then you are NOT part of it and you are only lying to yourself. Reason why beliefs don’t really work in the end. You seem to understand this concept, which is why it’s confusing to me that you subscribe to mgtow. It’s just a different set of beliefs.
And if you think any person on this entire earth is fully aware of all of their internal conflicts, then I can’t even continue this conversation and your ego is truly bigger than you think it is.
I didn’t say anything about shitting on you for wanting to help it. But I know you won’t help anyone by trying to make me feel bad. I highly doubt most would have bothered as much as I did and sometimes still do. I did what I could, in the best case I wouldn’t be understood, worse cases include hostility. So yeah, after being pissed on for making efforts for positive change for decades I really won’t accept being pissed on for no longer making those efforts.
You are really wasting your time trying to convince me. I’ve been trying to convince others of those facts for decades. Again, if the majority of our species doesn’t want to act on those facts but on imaginary principles, what gives you or me the right to force them to do otherwise?
I didn’t say that’s a solution. What job exactly are you talking about?
All of a sudden? No. But you can’t keep up ruining a planet forever. Me trying to stop it is what you call that mentality that got us here? Ehhh….
The problem is not only that I and others didn’t manage to turn things around, we didn’t even manage to slow them down, so all this time I wasted on mankind, mankind invested in intensification of it’s ways. So yeah, we don’t have the same means we had 20 years ago and 40 years ago. The situation is much worse and most negative processes are no longer invertible.
I would be in jail if I wouldn’t fight false accusations against my person. I can’t consider that waste of energy. Society taught me that it couldn’t care less whether I’m right or not, whether I’m guilty of something or not, whether someone wronged me or not. Fuck society.
Your subconscious pisses on you. No one else needs to do it. When you give up, you give up. Everyone has valid reasons for giving up, but people still keep going. The people who help make the world a better place for you and me and everyone else are the people who don’t give up. So keep enjoying the fruits of those who haven’t given up.
Also, It just feels better to overcome shit instead of letting it own you.
You told me several times now how you want to explain my own reasons to me. I think that’s a bit arrogant of you, but please, tell me something I don’t know about myself. Also, how exactly would you change the world in order to let mankind heal and thrive?
What gives you the right is the desire to do so. They desire to keep it the same, so why would you let them? Too many people give up, and intolerance wins. Like ive said, If you’re tolerant to intolerance, intolerance wins. And if you’re tolerant of it, then you can’t complain.
I am really sure I have a closer link to my subconscious than most.
The job of unfucking the world. And maybe you didn’t say that, but that’s what you’re choosing to do. Let it happen.
NO, you giving up is what got us here. Obvisouly not you personally, but that “give up because we’re all fucked anyways” mentality is what got us here and is keeping us here. “The situation is much worse and most negative processes are no longer invertible.” ….. so give up.
Since you declared most people to be assholes and society to be fucked up, with which I fully agree, I don’t see how I indicate more to be different than you do.
BUt did being offended by it have ANY impact on the outcome? My point is, you can get mad, or get practical. Getting mad or offended serves no practical long term purpose.
Because I don’t just lay down and accept it! I don’t give up. I don’t associate myself with a group that openly degrades people of any kind. It’s counterintuitive. Emotion is what makes you feel defeated. You have to see the practicality. It’s just not practical for health or livlihood to give up. You close so many doors when you lower your standard.
I can relate to their basic principles. If turning away can be interpreted as hostile action and certain groups display efforts to do so, then it’s in my own self-interest to take a stand. Ugh… “And if you think any person on this entire earth is fully aware of all
of their internal conflicts, then I can’t even continue this
conversation and your ego is truly bigger than you think it is.” Why can’t you turn it down a bit? I didn’t say I’d think that.
You did actually, “As for my inner conflicts, I am sure I’m aware of them all.” And you relating to their basic principles IS believing them. You said you don’t deal in belief… But you do.
I don’t have the slightest reason to have a bad conscience. You still haven’t presented any concepts of world-improvement, so I’m curious what you would want me to do.
As I demonstrated I still don’t tolerate every form of intolerance and unjustified accusations. But it’s you who is complaining. What exactly do you want?
I didn’t say your conscience. I said your subconscious. It’s different. And yes I have presented several. Sorry you chose to ignore them. I said it’s call peace from within. Working from the inside out. MGTOWS have it right until they degrade women and blame them for the problems of the world, which MANY of them do. Focusing on yourself is exactly the way to go. But that doesn’t mean we can’t still connect with each other and develop our brain technology together.
Mankind wants to stay fucked. Also, I know what would’ve been needed to be done to change the course of humanity, but what exactly do you think?
I’m not complaining, I’m picking apart logical fallacies in hopes that others will see the world in a more open minded view
WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT? Who are you to say what mankind wants? That is a GOD complex. Thinking you KNOW (knowing requires evidence, always, otherwise it’s simply a belief) what needed to be done to change things is just your ego once again convincing you that whatever conclusion you come to is correct. How do you KNOW.
Also, your logic is flawed. So because we’re not fixed RIGHT NOW, it means we want to stay this way?
Man, I didn’t give up because “we’re fucked anyways”, I accepted that we always wanted to be fucked. Can’t you grasp the difference? It’s your ego struggling against the rest, not mine.
It wasn’t unhelpful. Kept me focused.
I don’t lay down either. I don’t feel defeated, society can’t defeat me even if it destroys me. The practicality is that the atmosphere is poisoned and the ocean levels rise. Practicality is millions of us being without food, water an healthcare, while the average human is overweight. Practicality is a cascading interactive theater of conflicts and multimedial roleplay. Practicality is anything but practicality.
Well, that is correct. Still, you didn’t prove me otherwise. Feel free to do so.
No, you didn’t. Peace from within and universal love sound very nice, but how do you want to achieve that?
I’m not sure you succeed for the most parts, but as I stated earlier, I’m surely not hindering you.
You said yourself, society is fucked up. I’ve been observing long enough not only to see the present state but to have seen things getting worse. It’s not how I want things to be. Mankind doesn’t want things to be as I’d want them to be, and I’ve come to accept that. How the fuck is that a god complex? And sorry that I’ve been thinking about these issues for decades and came up with more than love and peace. I also stated that others worked on these issues before I was born and during my lifetime, who came to the same conclusions as I did. But since you have no idea what I’m talking about there’s no base for a discussion there. So, spread the love, I’m certainly not standing in your way.
But how do you KNOW (again, requires evidence) that we always wanted that? Could that not just be your perception and your ego convincing you that it’s reality?
Being offended kept you focused? You sure it wasn’t the desire to change your situation? Being offended is being stuck in your mind. It’s only there that you are offended. Not the physical world. But you know that.
It’s the way mankind continues to present itself. Also, over 99% of all life on earth became extinct, so it seems to be the global norm, wouldn’t you say? Maybe you should focus on mankind’s subconscious instead of mine. You did state that mankind was fucked up, so why do you even disagree?
How is ANY of that practicality? Just because it happened and continues to, doesn’t make it practical. In fact, it suggests that people have become VERY impractical with the ways they think. Allowing too much energy to their emotions, and not enough to the physical world. That literally makes no sense, “practicality is anything but practicality”. Do you know what practicality means? i’m so confused by everything in your last comment…. Practicality is NOT millions of us being with out food, water and healthcare, while the average human is overweight…. WHO said that is practical? Is anyone saying that? I’m confused.
But if I would have acted less “normal” facing those false accusations, the judges could have come to the wrong conclusion just because I wouldn’t have reacted as they would have expected. So. I’m happy with the way I handled it.
There is no actual way to prove what’s inside your head, but you yourself said you didn’t say you’d think that. I’m not trying to prove you wrong, just trying to get you to see that not everything you or I are saying are “facts” rather just simply beliefs. It’s chaos. Life is a paradox, so love.
By inspiring people to do the same. There is no other way. We’ve got it backwards that anyone who wants to spread that message (peace and love) is just being condescending or pretentious. Its one of the only messages that isn’t. And just because I don’t have a direct plan for achieving it, doesn’t mean it’s not the best possible route. I might know that I have a flat tire, but not knowing how to fix the tire, or not wanting to fix the tire does not make the flat tire go away. And even when you do know how to fix the tire, actually fixing it is a feat of it’s own. NO one’s saying it’s easy, but it’s the only way anything positive happens from this shit show.
Sorry to confuse you. What I’m saying is that mankind would have to change a lot more than most people are able to imagine. And even if they could, they simply don’t want it.
Again, mankind heating up the planet is not a fact???
HOW CAN YOU QUANTIFY THAT? Seriously? Knowing is EVIDENCE. Where’s your evidence? How do you know your ego isn’t convincing you that you have a closer link? How do you know you don’t just believe it?
You’re right you’re not sure. That’s about the only thing you can ever be sure of. You need some socrates in your life man.
We know what to do and we’ve known for 50 years. If we’ve wanted to, we would have ensured the survival of our species. We didn’t do so, because we wanted to ensure other things. Not me, not others who think like me, we as a species, as a whole.
How can you? You make a lot of statements about my ego and my subconscious, how come you know me better than I do?
What I need is a ride to get me off this planet.
Do you not realize that you only see what YOU see? you’re not all seeing. You see what you see and you store what you store. What about the perceptions of everyone else on earth? You’re not considering those.
And so because things aren’t how you want them to be, your solution is to give up instead of trying to fix it?
It’s a god complex because you think whatever your vision of the world is is the best one. That’s a god complex. You should read more philosophy.
I know exactly what you’re saying. You’re justifying giving up. Plain and simple. You’re saying, because it’s too late (in your mind) there’s no use trying.
Also, there is no present state. If you’d really been observing all this time as much as you think you have, you’d know nothing is certain. You’d know that nothing is ever set. It’s all just perceptions anyway. The world just IS. There’s no good or evil, right or wrong. Just IS. You can’t KNOW the present state because it is constantly changing. To know the present state you’d have to percieve everything in the world at one time. And i’m sure you know that that’s impossible.
You know, if global warming is just a myth for you, and your own statement that society was fucked up is just as negligible as everything I percieve, what exactly is your problem? The world is fine as it is, nothing to fix and nothing to worry about.
Continues to present itself? Do you really see it as one thing like that? Like it’s intentionally presenting itself? You see it one way, someone else sees it another. Difference is, you just think your assessment of the world is correct because if it wasn’t, then your life would be a lie in a way and all the time you’ve spent analyzing would be for nothing, because the conclusion you came to was wrong, or only partly right. We all only hold pieces of the whole. We can’t ever think we have a set view of the way the world is. It’s just the egos way of not overloading our brains. We haven’t had enough time in our evolution to handle the amount of information and knowledge the internet has given us. So, in hopes to save our minds from insanity, our ego convinces us that we have it right, so we stop trying to figure things out because that eventually leads you to the abyss that is relativism.
Hilarious. According to you, everything I know is an illusion, everything I percieve is false. Then, there is no problem, no crisis of any kind, nothing to worry about, nothing to fix, nothing to hate and nothing to love. The temperature and the ocean levels aren’t rising, fuck, there is no ocean at all, is there?
all of that could have been executed without you truly internally being offended. It still holds no purpose. It’s the ego getting bruised. nothing more.
So, the solution is to give up. Gotcha
I do believe mankind is heating up the planet. But a fact? Not one that I myself can quantify. I can only take other people’s word for it. So therefor, to me, truthfully, it’s not a fact. I can’t prove it myself, or i won’t, so to me it remains technically unknown. Like I said, I 100% believe that we are heating up the planet, but do I know it for absolute certainty? Would I bet my existence on it? No.
Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN-vMMpja30
Really, we KNOW? You dont’ seem to understand what KNOWING is. It’s EVIDENCE. Right in front of you. And even then, you still don’t know that this isn’t all a fucking dream. You don’t KNOW that the universe won’t end in 5 seconds. WE don’t know SHIT.
Okay man, this conversation is getting really pointless, you’re just spraying your philosophical bits all over the place. You obviously haven’t spent much time on the physically measurable problems humanity is facing, and I don’t think you are willing to do so. You basically proved my point. Mankind doesn’t want to change.
I don’t. I’m projecting what I think I know about the ego in hopes to help you understand it as well.
Aha.
No. What would you be willing to change?
But you have one. You always have one. It’s called suicide. Unless you plan on doing that (which I myself don’t see as such a terrible thing like society does), I suggest love and endurance. You’re gonna be here for the long run. Why not accept how things are and work from there instead of hating how everything has turned out?
Myself and how I react with the world around me. That’s the only thing I can change.
Aha. Are you acting on your 100% belief or are you waiting to be sure? Sorry, I’m really not in the mood for a vid. You tell me I can’t trust my perception, how can I trust myself?
Imagine if everyone thought that way. They wouldn’t try and fix everything. It’s the thought that everything is fucked that gets people to try to control everything, and that’s what fucks us, people gunning for control
Really, we know. Scientific evidence. But I don’t think that’s something of value to you.
I didn’t say it was an illusion, again, I don’t KNOW anything. I’m saying how can you be so sure of all of this, enough to shut everyone out, when you don’t KNOW for sure that it’s like that?
Well, I don’t see lack of understanding, so… thanks, no thanks, I guess.
It really is getting pointless. The more differing views I propose, the more shut off you become to them. And how did I prove your point? I’m not saying I don’t want to change, i’m saying the only thing mankind CAN change is themselves from within each individual. The only way we get people to think that is to show them that you can have chaos and peace. It’s a yin/yang thing. Find peace in the chaos.
watch the video and find out.
No, thanks. Also, you seem to have a problem to grasp that I already have accepted how things are, including the hate my species is addicted to.
How much change would you accept in your life and on the planet in general?
Weird because science is continually being proven wrong, by science. According to science itself, it’s a “best guess” system.
You don’t see lack of understanding? What? So you’re all knowing?
What is there to imagine? I can observe that.
You’ve accepted how things are, that was the first part. Now, you can either be miserable for the rest of your life, or you can work from where things are and at least be able to say you tried.
as much as it would take. No less.
You’ll have to be more specific. And you have to accept that we as a species know some things. If you can’t, it’s pretty pointless to talk about anything, since everything is delusive perception and belief in your opinion.
Really? Everyone thinks the world is fine as is? ok dude. i’m out. this is getting ridiculous.
You’re right, it is pretty pointless to talk about anything beyond, what the FUCK is this (the universe and life) and why the FUCK are we here?
Well, people tend to neglect philosophy when they’re hungry, sick or being shot at. Maybe you should teach them.
Another time.
If you disregard scientific evidence, there’s really nothing I can talk to you about. It doesn’t make sense that you criticise anything or anyone since we all live in perfect harmony with the rest of existence. You can’t have it both ways, man. Is society fucked up or is everything awesome the way it is?
No. But you can’t tell me anything new.
I am not miserable. I already am able to say I tried. As I stated earlier, my conscience is clear.
Would you dispense your nationality? Would you dispense the concept of money? Would you see yourself as an earthling instead of what-country-ever?
Most people think everything’s fine, except the one or another group of enemies “who ruin it for all of us”.
That’s not hard. Percieve, learn, evolve, repeat. Of course you have to stay alive, firstly.
Ha, ha, i’ve read various articles that diagnose MRAs and MGTOW with “Messiah Complexes”. I just write such heavily trolling comments for personal amusement. I enjoy seeing the comments in return, and imagining the looks on their faces as i severely bruise their fragile egos. Why else would i have a Piter de Vries avatar, hm?
Still, just acknowledge that civilisation sould collapse or get leveled, if women were gods and men had to do as were told.
gee fred….heres hoping you don’t get some nasty STD…the 24 women that you fuck “down there”…well about 2,000 other men have fucked the same woman you have. Just on different days and times when you’re not “down there”
Women complain about NOT having balance all the time. A woman has a baby, takes six weeks off, comes back to work and, finds herself 6 rungs lower down the ladder of success. This isn’t ALL MALE bosses doing this. Its society telling us…we just don’t agree with your “type” of balance. If you want babies fine…just don’t expect to come back to the same position you were in when you left. Female bosses make these same type of decisions. The corporate world is ruthless. Try having it “ALL”..in the end you will be totally burned out from working, moving up the ladder and ,trying to keep your baby and your husband happy.
I feel i have something to offer women…but its never enough. AT almost 59 yrs old i’ve paid my dues and played by the rules. Only problem is my bank account wasn’t big enough, my house was too small for her and my car wasn’t a BMW. So she cheated on me and left… for a Marine who she found more “masculine” and a true “warrior ” .I was with her 10 yrs before we married and legally married for 10 more years. Lost my job in the same year she left me. i’m not looking for any boo hoos because it happens to a lot of people. So..i try to move forward and look for a decent woman to grow old with. What did i find on dating sites ? Not much at all. Every e mail i sent to various women i got NOTHING back. Not even a message saying she wasn’t interested. NADA. ZERO..but i soldier on hoping that someday…..somewhere a woman might come into my life…i just hope by then i won’t be too old to actually do something with her.
You should get out more, sunshine. The 2000 other men they fkd all wear condoms , same as me. Which pretty well makes it impossible for them to have an STD. Unlike the skanks off POF/OkCupid/Match/Eharmony/etc, god knows where they have been. .
Well.. usually having a baby should be a mutual decision where the male wants it as much as the girl 🙂 In which case its pretty much implied that the male will likely have to do some of the pull on the income for the period of time when the woman is incapacitated. But if the male doesn’t want this, then the female shouldn’t pressure him into it.
And I think that the tradeoff of lesser rank after having had a baby is well…. Fair. If the girl is talented and skilled, she will find her way up the ladder again, but no one can blame corporations for wanting to make money with the way society is structured today.
When it comes to corporate life I have plenty to say about that though… such as employees needing to have more self respect. In some societies its completely normal to waste away at a job and never really truly live life for yourself. In other societies its easier to have self-expression and better work/life balance. Anyway thats beside the point. What you’re saying is true and I agree 🙂
I smell a feminist.
Nope egalitarian I don’t tolerate shit spewed from feminazis nor do I tolerate shit spewed from assholes in echo chambers. Although feel free to pretend that I’m a feminist if it’ll help you come with some quick nonsensical insults.
Well aren’t you a special kind of stupid. I needn’t ‘pretend’ anything, if you quack like a feminist you’ll be thought one.
Well aren’t you just literally retarded. Please quote the phrase in my comment that made it seem like I’m a feminist… don’t worry I’ll wait.
OhTarfeeble, it’s your overwhelming cuntliness. You should give seminars, the feminuts would pay you well.
Still waiting for the quote. Then again judging by the fact that you didn’t just reply with it and tried to make the conversation more juvenile than it already was I’m guessing it doesn’t exist… I’ll take my leave.
I’m not required to provide you with a specific quote when everything you write provides an example of your inflamed vaginal discharge.
Careful you might slit your wrist with all that edge and that would be absolutely dreadful.
Careful, you might forget to breathe with all that stupidity and that would be – well, okay.
Well, up above someone was talking about how they wish all women could be fired into the sun. Obviously there are extremists on both sides.
Ahem… no… dummy. My life is much better off being spent doing what I want to do. We all have an alotted amount of time on this earth. That’s all we have. I can spend it trying to make some arrogant, selfish bitch happy…. or I can spend it doing whatever the hell I feel like doing. I’ll choose the latter. Anyone who lives differently is a fucking dumbass. That’s all. It isn’t up for discussion. It isn’t debateable. Live for yourself, or be an idiot and live for some broad. There’s no in between. There’s just varying degrees of how stupid you allow a woman to make you. Compared to the piece of shit who wrote this article for example, I’m a global thermonuclear physicist.
Where are you from? Some place called fantasyland without divorces and family courts, right? This isn’t about having an ego, you mentally challenged buffoon. It’s about self preservation and enjoying your life. That’s all.
Because the wussy with the extra female chromosome who wrote it is all butt hurt and emo over the fact that he wants to be some womans doormat but mgtows make him feel like a watered down bitch by comparison so he has to lash out. He musta got some bimbo pregnant or something…
Amen brother. How can some bimbo’s stepstool talk down to a man who can do whatever he wants without having to “check in” with a woman? You only have so much time on this planet… Why waste it on a shallow, materialistic…. well.. whore actually? That’s all women are. It doesn’t matter if it’s dinner and a movie, or a 50 on the nightstand… a woman is a whore and that’s all. I will never give a whore the power to take half my stuff or steal from me every month with the help of the courts…. how utterly stupid.
Your responses are so stupid that they’re becoming tedious to wade through….
Don’t assign yourself a fancy title. You’re an average liberal moron. Nothing more.
Blah blah blah… I bet a lot of people just nod at the crap that comes out of you until you finally go the fuck away…
No, because what little minds women have are already infected with thoughts of shopping and assorted stupid shit. Men created everything in this world worth a damn from the internal combustion engine in your car to all the appliances in your fully heated, air conditioned frickin homes. Women created…. well most of the problems men have to deal with. That’s about the extent of their godamned contribution so stop acting like anything you’re typing is worth wasting the time to read.
Yet you choose to “wade” through them… you’re very smart are you?
By that logic, Siddhartha Gautama acted like a child himself. And what else could i even point out, other than that Kinta Walsh is herself a parrot!
Do you see us running around the streets holding up signs about how “WE NEED MGTOW BECAUSE SOMETIMES YES MEANS NO”? No. We’re calmly turning around and walking away from the idiotic dating game people put themselves through. It doesn’t mean we won’t fall in love, doesn’t mean we won’t get married, and certainly doesn’t mean we won’t have kids. It just means that right now the playing field is loaded with landmines and we’d rather not take that risk, thank you.
False rape accusations… Golddiggers… Child rapists… The WaW effect… Radical feminists… It’s too dangerous. You don’t have to call someone with a differing opinion a ‘troll’, just acknowledge that they don’t agree…
A whore? WTF dude?
You’re a disgrace to modern society. If you have an argument, make one, but you make well-meaning fellows look like assholes. Congratulations.
Apparently returnofthekings is turning into a pro-feminist, beta SIMP cuckold mangina website? The writer of this article is bitter, delusional, jealous, & highly ignorant, at best.
I’m sorry you’re so delusional & you don’t know what the word “rational” means. You should try a “dictionary”. They’re terrific. As for you being delusional, only medication & therapy can help that. Good luck. 😉
Actually I love articles like this. You see, shaming & guilting don’t work on real MGTOW men. The only thing these kind of articles will accomplish, is to make more men aware of MGTOW, feminist agendas, gynocentrisity, etc, & turn more men into MGTOWs (thx rotk) However, seeing rotk gradually turn into a pro-feminist beta SIMP cuckold mangina website, is a bit sad. 🙁 IMO this article single-handedly annihilated any credibility this site once had.
It had credibility in the first place? Never really been here before, but this seems like the kind of site a hyper-jock weirdo might make.
Nice name, btw.
At least we aren’t like those id-ridden Feminists.
You could always kill the woman and feed her flesh to your general populace.
At least we ARE ruled by egos, in any case, instead of overwhelmed and crippled by ids. That latter would be hell!
MGTOW is not a movement MGTOW are immovable.
You won’t get it till you get it.
Don’t be a hater! The writer has more heart than you!!!!!
What’s your point bitch ??? If you had a ft long that beat you every day took your money. And Fu ked all you friends and relatives. You would be a happy bitch. Right or wrong bitch.??? Because you “CHOSE” and I’m not saying that to be funny. I’m serious. You would be happy. Untell he dumps u for your aunt Sara. Then you ho take out on some beta chump.
Our culture loves to stroke our ego???? Lol. You must be gay. ! Or a women!…no man would say that modern society strokes a mans ego. We are at the. Bottom. In society. That’s why we mgtow
The fact you go on personal attacks shows your a female bitch. If a man dissagress with something he says why. And specks rational. Your a emotional wreck. Its easy to smell your bra burning. Only bitches Deni thier is a real problem with women’s rights stepping on men’s rights. NO MAM WELL DENI That. YOUR A FUKIN TROLL FEMENAZI
Here is. A quote for you. “Go burn your bra hoebag”
“Don’t agree” with facts????? Lol. Ya. Deffently a troll femenest. Only people I k ow that don’t agree with facts are femenazies. So your saying thier is not a problem with false rap allegations?
Trooll
Look clearly you have trouble reading, or maybe it’s just bias either way zero fucks are given.
Then clearly their are no men here. I’m actually suprised I was able to decypher that nonsense you types. (Speck, your instead of you’re, deni, you even managed to spell their wrong.)
I was replying to comment made by some guy who said hur dur womenz need to go.
What does that have to do with men’s rights?
That would be me.
Hearts that’s not the part of our anatomy the female are most involved with. It’s our money. Only PUA are stupid enough to spend lots of money on women.
When you end up paying alimony, and child support for kids not yours. Than talk to us about “huge egos”. Man Shamming comes very natural for PUA because that’s how to scores with girls. In the end one of them gonna pop up a baby and you’re in for a long haul.
Enjoy the ride while it last full of herpys.
So what you’re saying is…it is best just to spend the $50 and get it done.
Hater… only wussies and self-pitied simps use that retarded term.
Baloney! Modern feminism is as dead as MGTOW-ism will be shortly. Stop prating about feminists, and take responsibility for your own failures, which are, oddly enough, your own. No one can ruin you unless you let them, and if you let them, you are NOT a man.
Your whole comment says the same thing: Aveles is a wimp, and hides it by insulting others. Go downstairs, mommy says your hot cocoa is ready, little boy.
Hmmm…..and since you make minimum wage, what women are hot for you again, and who hurt you?!? Grow TFU.
He’s not your brother, as his comments show him to be your sister. Good luck with your incestuous and homosexual relationship!
I can’t speak for others, but somehow I used to allow predatory women to sink their hooks in and couldn’t shake loose because of the tears. Those same tears are now used against me in court since I got the nerve to walk away. Now I’m a slave to the system with no choice but to bear the burden of not having been MGTOW all along. It’s a reality many men face. As much as I would like to elaborate, I can not. The truth may set you free, but in my case, it would result in incarceration. No man should be forced to remain in a cuckold relationship or face consequences for being falsely accused and denied due process. Somehow this has become the American way.
You’re 100% right.
Theres absolutely notinh wrong with going mgtow for self preservation. Im really sorry whats happening to you. I know it means nothing… I try as much as I can to spread openness towards caring about men.
“Female bitch” is redundant. *disagrees *speaks *rationally *you’re *an *it’s *deny *there *ma’am *deny(again? really?) *you’re *fuckin *feminazi
“This argument is exactly why mgtow is growing”
2 years on from that comment you’re still a group of unfuckable losers that are contanly mocked for the autistic cast offs.
Two years later some cuckold wandered in and necroed a thread on a topic he proclaimed is dead. So which is it? Are you so fucking lonely and pathetic that you dig up old threads and then scour the comments section trying to deny his own reality, or are you living the dream and dream onto have time for shit like that?
so jimmy boy we meet again . still pulling out your Nazi propaganda BS ea ? u think u would learn now that shaming language dos not work on us . but of course u are to stupid to know that . u got the brain of a man hating Nazi ( feminists ) so it should not surprise me .
ptt they have no clue how to love let know they have harts .
u should follow own advice . u Nazi scum bag .
men who bow down to Nazis are not men either . u stupid mangina .
yea i wish luck on ours as well .
Nothing about mgtow is rational, just as nothing about feminism is. Do you dolts not see this? Mgtows are just male (not man) versions of feminists! Grow the fuck up and deal with your problems by doing something BESIDES blaming everyone else for them, you fucking pussies.
what these stupid idiots who are shaming us don’t realize they are promoting us i bet u right now people reading these comments are looking up MGTOW in the google search engine . i keep telling them but nope they don’t listen to me cause thay think we are a bunch of f%%*(ing losers . meanwhile thay are getting there azzes handed to them on a silver plater with gold trimmings and a butler in divorce courts etc. this is how stupid they have become .
agreed . marriage has no benefits for men never has never will .
why what did the sun do to diverse it ?
me to we can smell ( caught put on a gas mask ) form here .
u can take the losers out of the feminists but u cant take feminists out of the loser
This this and this! Couldn’t have typed it better myself!
Hey, thanks. Funny, I checked back in after what, a couple of months, and the thread is like fifty replies deep. Touched a nerve!
MGTOW is winning! The losers are the simps that throw all their money at pussy, neglect their own needs and end up alone anyway. I date all the time but women come to me on my terms. Once they start acting like princesses then boom, out the door.
If you date then you’re not “MGTOW” – MGTOW is a bunch of obese neckbeards who can’t even get a date and blame “women” for not appreciating how ‘nice and sensitive’ they are, when the real reason they can’t get laid is because they’re obese manchildren who play Minecraft for 11 hours a day
Most obese manchildren are naive nice omega males guys. They aren’t MGTOW and they aren’t worthy of being called human beings.
I’m a MGTOW, 6′ tall 190 and fit. Not a bad looking guy at but I’ve grown very disenchanted with the double standards and rampant feminism. I decided to pull myself of the women’s cock carousel and do things with a new perspective that doesn’t involve the loss of my self respect, all my money and peace of mind.
Next time choose women who dont go for their money(protip: just because you are too blind to see them, doesn’t affect women at all).
You sound like a cheapskate Karim & therein lies your problem with getting laid.
Horseshit. Generalize much? Far from being a bunch of “obese neckbeards”, we’re an eclectic group who draws the line at allowing women to get close enough to cause us damage. What’s your stance on the state of affairs with women?
Are you from Berlin, Germany, 1940?
Typical.
And that is why I’m not dating. Show me a few of them and I’d change my mind
Hmm…. I can’t show you them as I don’t even have your location and i’m an extreme introvert who doesn’t talk to people… BUT! it’s your lucky day!…
The way you get around moochers is well… by not giving more money to them than you would any other person. If they never reciprocate, they get the boot. Easy peasy 🙂 I once knew a moocher guy.. he’d mooch drinks, money, tickets..whatever he could get. He said he’d pay back always. I gave him the boot pretty quickly.
I am extremely giving, so i like giving people gifts and surprising them. But I always do it for only as much as I -know- internally that I wont feel bad about losing if the person turns out nasty.
I once gave 60 bucks to my ex so that he had a little money to live on and to be able to send me some stuff back from his house. I never saw the stuff, and he began acting like an idiot again(hes an ex for a reason). The loss of that 60 didnt hurt. I had calculated the risk. I only hoped that he would spend it on necessities and not pizza and beer like he had written on his facebook(given that both he and his mom were in need of money)….
That’s how I stay whole… I never give more of myself than I can stand to lose in the worst case scenario.
Not everyone is obsessed with getting laid.
Btw what makes you think men cant cause you damage? I’d like to see the statistics of gay men’s break ups…. i wonder how gay marriage will hold up to hetero marriage. It always scares me when people give preference to their own gender just because of the gender.
And MGTOWs actually advocate generalizations.
Here’s my theory: The reason women seem dangerous to you(other than the risky laws, which I personally think is the only justifiable reason you guys have), is because you have the ability to love them. That means that there’s a larger probability that a woman might hurt you, given that her gender does indeed enable her to get close enough to really mess you up emotionally.
Females seem harmless to me. Not to the world, but to me… I’ve had female friends who have hurt me, yes… but it never feels as bad as when it’s a guy that I loved.
This doesn’t deter me though. I don’t actively seek guys out, but sometimes one falls in my lap…. and it’s a rollercoaster. Even if the breakup is painful as hell… im happy that I got to experience the deep love that I have.
I am quite happy going my entire life without a partner, but I wont be outright avoiding men just because they have the ability to hurt me…Many times, when relationships break apart, it’s a 50/50 blame balance.
The one thing I WILL say though, is that its true that women can get irrationally emotional…. It took me a long time to get rid of the habit to throw tantrums. Then again, I suppose that came from my dad who had a short temper and would blow up at nothing and get violent and emotionally abusive. I am telling you this because not everything is black/white.
My sister can’t control her emotions at all.. I’ve tried educating her…. Sigh.. one day though… i’ll succeed.. i hope. She keeps wondering why her relationships fail.
No one is perfect… but if it weren’t for the insane “gynocentric” laws.. you guys would literally have no reason to hate/dislike/mistrust women… Because it’s not the women that are the problem here.. but your weakness to them. The same goes for women.
My advice to everyone is to live only for the things you are passionate about and invite only people in who you have gotten to know well enough.. Even then, man or woman, they can always change. A lot of people make the mistake of never scrutinizing their relationship to people even when they’ve changed for the worse.
It took me a long time to realize that my childhood friend is bad for me… due to the history between us, I always just accepted him…. I just came to the conclusion that maybe I should avoid him recently, but it should have been sooner. It is entirely my own fault though, not his.
That’s a lovely attitude. You certainly aren’t what’s giving MGTOW such a bad name ^_^
The strange thing about this argument is, before feminism, you’d have had to look after the woman completely. Because many women weren’t even allowed to work back in the day, you’d have been married off and would have to provide everything for her forever. At least these days, you have a chance of going out with a woman who can pay her share of the rent and wouldn’t think that God would punish her for sleeping with a man before marriage.
I suspect your dating problem might actually be the fact you reject women who call themselves feminists – i.e. they can hold down a job, aren’t afraid of sex and don’t mind paying their fair share of a ‘dinner and a movie’ date. It sounds like you might have a better time of it if you relaxed your ‘strictly no feminists’ stance. Some of us are okay, we just don’t like being played – and frankly, we can usually tell.
You’re black. Women don’t want black men. I’m sure you are upset about this.
If you’re really okay then you’re not really a feminist.
Yeah, it’s pretty much the laws, the laws put western women in the very worst place with regard to western men, by bringing out the worst in women and removing any constraint society placed on harmful effects caused by womens’ bad decisions. It really makes a decent woman almost impossible to find here because it adds so much incentive for them not to be decent.
Only brings out the worst in women who had that mentality to begin with. It is not as impossible as you think though… It only seems that way if you keep hanging out in the manosphere where confirmation bias is abundant. I know this, because depending on who i hang out with and what I expose my self to, my entire world view changes.
At some point I even nearly forgot that religion was a thing… because I had spent so much time with atheists. It was mind boggling.
But yes. The more freedom to abuse a law you give people… the worse the people who are immoral will take advantage.
It does bring the bad bunch out in the light.
The really unfortunate thing is that a huge portion of people didn’t grow up with good morals. But I see this in both women and men.
its one of the reasons I don’t automatically trust anyone fully. I take a long time to warm up to people regardless of gender.
Let me tell you something. In my country. about 3000 people get raped a year. Only 60 rapists get convicted. And our law is the type that say “If you didnt struggle hard enough, you werent raped” … This gives a lot of opportunity for a rapist to abuse the law, and even lie in court.
Now… if we were to suppose that all those rapists had been men. Is it fair of me to say that men are less valuable than women? That they are all pigs and must go away from society? That our current law is turning men into rapists just because its easy enough to get away with? That men have no self restraint to engage in these horrendous acts?
I cant, can I? … In fact we have to consider the fact that women rape others too.. Even rape other women… Something that barely anyone takes seriously. “a girl cant rape a girl”.
But the rapist thing is usually attributed to guys as it seems to happen more.
Its the same with the laws you complain about. For example, women pay child support too. Yes, it’s not something stereotypically attributed to women, but it happens.
Jeez. Thats a bit extreme . Everyone is a human being. Even the guys who dont care about being butch and alpha.
There was never a period of history where women were not allowed to work. This is a feminist revision of history and an outright lie. All throughout history, women have worked.
Here is a box full of hand grenades. Go ahead and pull a few pins. Not all of them will blow up in your face. That’s what I hear when a woman says “not all women are like that”. Divorce is over 50%. Would you go skydiving if your parachute had a 50% success ratio? Why should I gamble my life’s work and savings on a woman? For what benefit?
Lesbian divorces are 20% higher than gay couple divorces. Women are quick to enter commitments and just as quick to jump out when things get inconvenient.
Breaking up isnt a bad thing, and if you go into a relationship of any kind(be it romantic or platonic) and feel entitled to it lasting forever well… you just set yourself up for becoming super miserable. It is also very naive.
But I get your point. Some people just need to be paranoid and avoid as many risks as possible. That’s not my beef.
My beef is with people who take this as an opportunity to show their ignorance by blaming the entire gender, making up false theories about them and claiming to be superior.
If youre not that type of person though, then nvm 🙂
So?
dude mgtow date, and fuck, you got it all wrong, hahahahaahaha so mr hot shot you get a date, and you feel like you better than any other men?? hahahahahaha dumb ass lol she probably using you, making you pay for everything lol she using you for a ride hahahahahahah poor blue pill mangina, in the other hands i date, and make women pay half of everything lol, i bet you cant do that, right?? because as soon you try that, she will dump you hahahahahahahah do the test dumb ass thats how you will know if she really into you, or she just using you to kill time, hahahahhahaha try it,
the only thing you can do to keep a woman around you, its by being a nice guy hahahahahhaa, and i bet you hear before, nice guy dont last, women love bad boys, hahahahahahahaha so good luck being a blue pill mangina, when you wife cheat on you, dont complaing, and when she take half of you stuff and make you pay her alimony, and child support dont complaing.. hahahahahahahah
guys like you are just boring to women, women only use blue pill mangina like you, to get free food ect, at then end she will get bored at you and cheat on you hahahahahhahahahaa women love guys that treat them like crap or at least men that stand up for themself, but blue pill mangina like you they usually get bored hahhahahahahahahahahahha and i know that because i fucked several married women before and they tell me their life sucks and the only reason they are with their husban its because they provided for them , hahahahahahhahahahahahaha and they tell me once they know for sure they can take them to court and take half of their stuff they will divorced them hahahahhahahahahahhaa dumb asses hahahaa
hahahahahahahahaha
Plenty of MGTOW date, just goes to show how ignorant you are – the point of MGTOW is to go your own way – if dating is part of that way – then guess which way you’re allowed to go?!?!
you laught because you know its truth, i fucked several women, im 30 years old i been fuckin women since i was 17, of course using protection, im not dumb, to let them slave me over child support, so i know women nature, women look for a nice guy a mangina a blue pill provider, but then dump their asses for the bad boys, hahahahaha
Can you send me one of those that pays, has a job and I dont have to drug do get sex from?
Oh and I know this sounds like me being a picky jerk, but can you make sure she can see her toes?
LOL, I love how you broads complain about not just being sex objects, but the first bullet in your arsenal is, “this is why you don’t get laid”, lets be real here shall we sweet pea, without the pu$$y trap most men wouldn’t even know you exist.
When we are young, men are lead around by the d!ck, but as we get older and that drive begins to subside we see how much energy we have wasted in that direction, if you are fortunate enough to have met a woman with whom you have a real connection and a genuine drive to build something together then you have been fortunate and I envy you, but after years of party girls, shopaholics and wannabe replacement mommies, I’ll stick with reading, home improvement projects, Sports and amateur astronomy.
you left out the end of this story, that when they are done with him they are done with you too as most of them are not looking to stay attached to a minimum wage, tatted up laborer for anything more then a quickie, hahahahah…
The women you speak of are usually damaged people, they connect with guys like you because they know you are base human beings and will not see their issues or are just so dim that you will over look it as long as you are getting laid.
Some of us have an intellect that needs to be fed far more frequently then our animal lust and too that end some broken cheerleader is not the answer.
hahahaha yeeah right you dont know nothing dude, the women i fucked are unhappy married women, hahahahaa
dude its no use getting into argument with mangina or white knights, lol i dont wasted my time, lol good luck though
dude i dont want to get attach, i love my freedom to much for that, lol i let that for blue pill mangina like you who are to scared to be by themself, lol i cant deal with the naggy, and all that crap thats come with a woman, i just look for them when i want sex. thats it
and hey mangina , this is the benefit of marriages this is the kind of power a women will have on you if anything go wrong in the marriages LOLOL only an idiot let a woman have that kind of power over them http://www.mgtow.com/video/the-benefit-of-signing-a-marriage-contract-prison/
Trust me “dude”, I know plenty; your commanding grip on grammar tells me all I need to know about who you are and what you attract.
the truth is out there dude, if you want to stay in the box stay on it, LOL only way i get married is if they changes thoses stupid ass law, my freedom is the best gift, and im not gonna lose it, over some fairy tales, about love and all that crap, lol i can understand getting married back in the days in the 40s and 50s, but now theses day??? hell no thats is to risky and my mind peace is something no pussy can buy, since i can buy pussy anytime i want LOL why risky?
I’ll work upwards (as it were). Are you telling me you have to drug or pay a woman in order for her to have sex with you? If so, I don’t mean to pile on, but you’ve failed at life my friend. And the most messed up thing about it is: you’re probably theoretically considerably more attractive to women than you think you are.
Step one: Treat them like a person. Interact with them as though you thought they were a real human.
Step two: Be mildly self-deprecating. Only mildly though – the idea is to seem self-aware, rather than insecure.
Step three: Say something you think is interesting. An observation or dilemma etc. People who find stuff interesting, are often interesting to others as a direct result.
Step four: Complement them in some way – whatever you’ve been told, this can only give you points.
Step five: Now you can start playfully mess with them. Only because they will do the same back. It’s plausible you’ll now have a consensual dialogue.
Step six: Suggest you sleep with each other. If you want to see them again, work that into the proposal and if not, be honest about that too. Women are more likely to be rational than not.
If you do treat women as proper people, you’ll plausibly now get to sleep with each other, with only the usual problems that entails. Point being no allegations etc. Point being, you both got there with eyes wide open. Point being, that’s the only way anyone should sleep with anyone.
Obviously this won’t work every time, but nothing ever does, coz of humans and their ideas and opinions. It’ll be more satisfying than ‘gaming’ women though, as you’ll pull more intelligent/slightly less drunk ones, who’ll maybe see you again, if you want them to.
Seriously – take us seriously and we’ll complement you with them same.
I honestly don’t know what you mean. Please expand.
I do see what you mean, and that isn’t an unreasonable thing to say. All I really meant was: women, back in the day, were the property of men, so if a married woman worked, it was because her husband let her do so. It was kind of expected that he hold the fort, but because that’s clearly preposterous, wives did often contribute their share (arguably more than their share, if one accounts for the additional child-rearing, cooking and cleaning, which the husband was less likely to participate in). Sure, unmarried women worked all the time (and yes – so did married ones, but only at the behest of their husbands, with the added extras mentioned above).
Post hoc ergo proper hoc innit. I reject your idea that because I self-identify with the thing, that means I’m your definition of the thing. All I’m saying is (I’m Lana BTW): – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmUNyQVkBdc
What a silly, racist thing to say. The thing women are attracted to is less about colour and more about not being, you know, a tool to women.
If you can’t find a woman who fits your description, it looks like you only have yourself to blame my friend…
lol, it’s implied that the words we use have consistent meanings and that since we’re using them to communicate between persons that those meanings are consistent and aren’t dependent on the particular individual defining them…
I suppose if you’re wrong about your definition of feminism and/or I’m wrong about my definition of feminism then rejecting the interference is reasonable, but of course the issue then becomes getting our definitions consistent (which is one way to approach the entire point of my post…)
The implicit message in what I’ve said is that contemporary feminism is really not okay, which I believe is a reasonable position since 3rd and 4th wave feminism are in-fact quite radical, are not about meaningful equality, and in-fact promote a societally unhealthy form of androgyny or sameness for everyone, with disastrous effects for men, children, and in-fact women themselves. Anybody who would say today’s feminism is “okay” isn’t okay. If you’re really okay then you’re a “gender egalitarian” and not a “feminist”.
If you want to go off of the “we can all define our own words to mean whatever we want” deep end then I guess we’re done talking because really nothing a person with such a belief says can be taken to mean anything at all.
Your latin threw me for a loop, but I think what you mean is cum hoc ergo propter hoc, since I don’t think the chronological sequencing of causality is important to what you’re saying.
hahahaha is that all you got??? dumb mangina LOL you just want to stay in the box and I don’t care, lol I love when I see in the news dumb asses like you killing themselves because their wife divorced their asses lololol go and feed your crap to some mangina like you that don’t work with red pill men
Well, that seems to be an inaccurate & illogical thing to say. Perhaps I’m not the Big Bad that you imagine a feminist to be. I’m certainly a feminist, but I reject your generalised categorisation about what I’m like.
Obviously you’re entirely entitled to your opinions, it’s just that it’s my opinion is that this is wrong… For various reasons.
Basically – I wouldn’t presume for a second to know what the hell is going on in your life. However, the other way round it’s too often about specifics: are you male or female? Are you straight? Etc.
I would argue that there’s actually an interesting conversation to be had about the left vs. right wing dialogic. It’s less about feminism vs. you guys and more about the upper middle classes purposefully shutting us all out of the dialogue. Whilst pretending its about woman vs. man. Or immigrant vs. hard British worker. I honestly think this isn’t a man v. woman thing. It’s all a bit more complicated… (Yes – obviously I am part of the (almost entirely male) Illuminati, if such a thing exists – all feminists are.)
I’m entirely happy to have further discussions on this subject, Get back to me if you genuinely want such a thing. Or you can also get back to me if you want to bitch about how feminists are unsubtle and hypocritical. That’d be fine too.
I by far away disagree with a huge chunk of your views and argument however I can’t help but admit you seem like an interesting person to have coffee and conversation with.
You don’t have a clue what a MGTOW is. I’m not obese, I do not have bad facial hair, I am not sensitive or “nice” to women at all (actually I find they prefer to be treated like shit). I am professionally employed, own my own home, mid-forties. Look mid-thirties. Divorced. Two kids. Never marrying again. Never living with a woman again. Not signing up for alimony or step-parent child support. Not saving any more poor women from themselves. Not trying to “make a woman happy” (which is impossible, because they thrive on being miserable and never having enough). Few men have my confidence these days – most are emasculated progressive liberal simps and wimps. Few men are truly free. I need a career and money like the next guy, but I sure as hell don’t need a “LTR” or woman living with me. What I want from women takes a few hours of my time each month, if I even want that at all. Most times I am too busy living my life to worry about it. Honestly, most women can’t even compete with some really good porn and a fresh bottle of lube. I’d rather have the latter than listen to ten seconds of their pedantic shit and whining about what they need to buy next or how much better Suzie down the block has things or how much better Jane’s hipster boyfriend is at listening and sharing his feelings. I just don’t *give* a fuck.
So, you’re clueless about what a MGTOW is – and you need to come from a place where you shame other men to build yourself up. In “real life” (offline) I eat people like you alive.
That’s MGTOW “Ace”.
Let’s forget about MGTOW and how much you hate the loosers, virgins and outcasts for a second. We are dealing with facts, research, statistics, history, biology etc. At any point you can argue the logical material, you can be right. Not all women are like that but they all have the potential to be like that if exposed to certain conditions or else we would never see such a vast pattern of behavior in different races and cultures. If we used horses for centuries, it doesn’t mean they are not gonna get outdated as a transportation. Same thing can be applied to the relationship between men and women.
Meh. the argument “everyone has the potential to do x” is a dumb one becausesuch arguments can be made about everyone(like how feminists make all men out to be potential rapists).
I hear what you’re saying, but I dont really feel like discussing with anyone who uses such blatant fallacies.
No, not all the time. Some just don’t want to deal with women these days and have even experienced dating themselves. One does not have to be with someone to be happy and find fulfillment elsewhere. This article is somewhat off.
Citation needed.
Everyone’s blind who can’t see what you see, right?
I wish you were the introvert you claim to be.
Congratulations! You proved one basic point of the movement.
How are mgtow winning? They make up such a marginally small percent of the population its not even funny. But you sure feel obligated to tell everyone how successful and cool you are(which is the biggest sign that you’re not).
Marginally small piece of population? You need to stop smoking crack. Most single women I know are complaining that all the decent looking guys are MGTOWS who only want a fuck and nothing else. They complain that NOBODY is relationship oriented at all. The growing backlash against feminism is causing a rapidly increasing number of men to become MGTOWs. Men are the ones with the money and the essential skills that involve using your hands as well as the courage and strength to do the difficult jobs that involve extracting energy from the earth (vitally important jobs that NO woman does). To say you still need us infinitely more than we need you would be the understatement of the millennium. We have porn, strippers, hookers, sluts to take your place sexually. Your type is completely and utterly valueless to any real man.
So you admit that men are only after sex? lol. (protip: not all men only want sex)
also.. “most females YOU know”. Keep in mind I don’t live in USA or whatever. If you are from USA you were fucked from the beginning.
The thing you need to realize, mr. Bill… Is that even MGTOW peeps will make room for people they are compatible with. Be it a female friend or temporary companion.
The one’s that avoid females at all costs, or the ones that ghost, are either really paranoid… Or have gone through so much crap that they simply can’t tell rational feelings from irrational feelings anymore. In either case, the truly paranoid MGTOWs aren’t that common. The ones that are would have been so from the start. The only difference is that you have finally figured out how to use the internet to find a place where you can pat yourselves and each other on the back over how cool and awesome you are for rejecting females. Lol. It’s quite adorable.
I have seen a LOT of mgtows who talk about how they were extreme mgtows at first, then eased up and merely practice good caution regarding people(something anyone would be smart to do)
but the hookers won’t care about you. Sluts cheat. Good women are hard to find and they provide a lot of value.
He wasn’t saying that “all men want is sex”, just that all a woman can bring to the table in a relationship is sex. What other value add did you think you brought to a man’s life? What does a man need you for?
The truth is you can’t provide us with any other need that we don’t already provide ourselves and he was pointing out that the sex industry has evolved and has taken away the necessity of that one last reason that men used to seek out female companionship.
Not to mention that you femtards spend zero time or effort listening to us and just yammer off random shit out of anger that you have no purpose in life other than to annoy us like a mosquito around the ear that just won’t go away. Wake up silly cunt!
The reality is that they can’t bring anything but sex to YOU. And this is because you have an extremely limited tunnel-view of the world.
And yes he was saying “All men want is sex”.. .And so are you.
You’re one of those two-braincells folks who think men and women cant be friends. You’re silly lol. The real world proves you otherwise. but the saddest thing is that you are so ignorant, you can’t even use your brain to go beyond you instinctual need to seek confirmation bias. Whenever you see a man and a woman in a platonic friendship you will try as hard as you can to shame the guy, calling him mangina, bitch or whatever, simply because he succeeded at something you know you will never achieve. Instead you try to convince yourself that you never even wanted it anyway. I feel sorry for you.
WRONG. That’s not what I was saying and not what he was saying. You simply have no argument as usual so you’re applying spin, the only tactic you know because you learned it by watching the corrupt assholes on your television.
Then you put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head that were not there to begin with because you simply cannot address the true topic at hand. When it comes to necessities in life, what does a woman bring to the table in the year 2015? What does a woman have that a man needs that he cannot provide for himself?
You said friendship. Again: WRONG.
Men have plenty of friends, why do they NEED one that complains 24/7 and doesn’t play fair?
Go back to the concept of NEEDS which is what we were trying to talk about before you went way out into left field picking daisies and swatting flies on your own. What Necessities does a woman satisfy for a man, what is your argument in defense of the old fashioned relationship and/or marriage?
Women don’t care about their mate period. It always comes down to money anyway which is what makes the hooker option so logically appealing. You’re going to pay for it one way or another!
Ah… all women NEED to complain 24/7? That’s a very interesting perspective 🙂
Again, not what I said but you got a Z in Reading & Comprehension and you have no abilities beyond copying the morons on television as I already pointed out.
Still waiting for 1 thing that men need you for, haven’t gotten an answer yet. Just more bullshit because that’s all you are and all you’ll ever be.
Not what you said? But I have hard evidence that what you said:
“Men have plenty of friends, why do they NEED one that complains 24/7 and doesn’t play fair?”
Anyway… here’s my question to you: Why would men NEED anyone? What do men need other men for? Not only that, but what would they need YOU for? It seems to me that you would only bring complaining to the table 😀
That’s an understatement. Good women are almost impossible to find in the west (where society has enshrined into law all kinds of perverse incentives to bring out the very worst in female nature and eliminated all of the stabilizing effects that held families together for the long haul.)
Maybe I’ll have better luck abroad.
If anyone has comprehension deficiency here, it’s you. I never claimed men need women, did I? In fact, if you, as any human, NEED anyone else in order to be happy… you pretty much failed at life. People get together because they provide enrichment to each other.
Men dont need other men. Men don’t need women. If men want a friend, they will find someone who fits their mutual interest. This friend can take the shape of any gender, race or species. A man can be a friend with a dog even. or a camel! So many possibilities.
Now stop trying to get me to defend a point I never made and go outside and enjoy life a little. Dont you have some weights to pull or a car to clean?
Still can’t answer a simple question, eh? I don’t have weights to pull or a car to clean right now but I do have some snatches and asses to fist. Thanks for the advice, and away I go!!!
I answered your question. Your comprehension skills are that of a toad. lol.
The root question was: what purpose do you serve? You don’t have a purpose Nikki, you are a useless waste of space pretending to be an intellectual which you are not. What have you done for humanity that is worth a thing? What have you contributed to society? Answer from you is: nothing. I already knew that though, just wanted to watch you try to worm your way around it because you can’t face the truth.
By the way, if you don’t think you need a man, stop utilizing everything men have put here for you and start your own human sect. The sect of the useless. You’ll have to start your journey on your feet and walk anywhere there aren’t roads. You’ll have to figure out how to source your own food and water and you’ll have to build yourself your own shelter. Best of luck! Send me word of your progress though you’ll have to figure out a communication system to pass that word along. Perhaps a chain mail through your network of dunces will do? I don’t know, you figure it out, you’re the genius!
Wow Tyler :-S … where does all that anger come from? You don’t seem ok 🙁 I know that you must have gone through a lot of crappy shit to get to this point. It really hurts my heart to know this. I wasn’t aware I was conversing with a hurt person as you were. I have no idea how much hurt you have experienced in the past, but I hope I didnt make it bubble up to the surface. I hope you find the answers you need out of life.
Please tell me what women bring to a relationship other than sex. Correction: What positives do women bring other than sex? I’m not asking out of anger, malice or judgement. I’m genuinely curious. I’d like to know the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.
Most women won’t care about you and they’ll cheat. What’s your point?
All one need do is live on this planet for a couple decades to become totally dis-enthralled with its inhabitants like yourself. I have found the answers I need in life, number one rule: never return to this planet if it is indeed an option. Number two, you can cheer me up by blowing me. Thanks, have an awesome day Nikki!!!!! 🙂 Smiles and tickles, you silly billy gumdrops!!!!
I can not correctly answer that without asking all couples in the entire world. But what I’ve heard from friends bds/acquaintances, it varies a lot. I could ask you “what do men bring to the table?” you could answer with “money” but that would be devaluing men and it would be purposefully ignoring the relationships where man and woman bring equal income or where the woman brings more. No, in the end the money isn’t important if the couple is happy. And before I go on, I need to let you know that I am an existential nihilist, so this is the point of view I go from.
People do things because it makes them feel something that they seek to feel. Usually it’s good things. But a depressed person might seek negativity to fuel his misery.
So…. Back to my friends. Some like their partner because they are submissive, caring and loving. Others because they are dominant, smart and nurturing..
My own partner often mentions that I’m cute, smart and chaotic. So I am assuming that’s what he likes about me. Plus I’m submissive and I like pleasing him.
But to really answer your question, females bring the same thing all humans d: “something”.
The thing is… No individual’s action can ever reflect on their entire gender. Take men. Some men are geniuses and get things done. But far the most men are simply average people living their life with no significant concern for anything. Same goes for girls.
So bottom line is : a woman brings to the table whatever her strong sides are. She brings the things that make her partner happy. There is no universal law for whatever humans need to bring. There is only the things that make us feel happy and content.
Anyway, if you want a more specific answer, maybe you could try elaborating your question a little 🙂 cos right now the answer is: “it depends on the individuals involved”
In other words, nothing. That’s what I thought. You used an awful lot of words to tell me that you have no idea.
Lol its amazing how low someone’s comprehension skills must be to turn “something” into “nothing”. Here’s my question to you : what do you think women SHOULD bring to a relationship.
Secondly why do you differentiate between what men and women should bring
I would choose exploring the stars over this planet any time 🙂 I am a bit of a misanthrope… But I have found a select few people who make this planet bearable to be on.
God bless you, we all have otherwise we would have jumped by now. Keep bearing the light sister. What is your exit strategy? LOL Rock and roll girl.
lol you are pathetic lolol ,more men everyday are learning about the marriages contract lol good luck getting youself an slave lol
its funny most of theses mangina dont get it yet its the system ,system to hostile against men
You know… The easiest thing for someone with low self esteem to do, is trying to put someone else down in order to attempt making yourself feel better. But if you’d like, I’ll pretend to be hurt by your internet words if that pleases you 🙂
Ow! You meanie!!
Lol hey.im red.pill man.Plus a man so that dont work with me im good looking man so never had problem la in getting laid lol .plus i got my pic on that avata meaning i got a very good self steam.lol
Lol being a red.pill man teach me a lot about women.and their nature ,all you are looking for.in a man.its a blue.pill mangina.provider nothing elses .and all you can offer its sex that it, while that man gonna take a big risk married you ,because after a few year you can just divorced him, make him pay you alimony and make him give you half of his stuff and all that for what???for a piece of ass???lol i can get vagina anytime i want and differents one and dont need to kowtow to an western women lol
So basically “Me man! Me red pill so me cool! Me also no how to get ladies! ME COOL LOOK AT FACE!”
Btw, how many more “lol”s can you fit in your sentences?
Right now I have this mental image of a laughing ape who just barely learned how to spell like a human and now thinks it can pass off as one.
But again… if it makes you feel better, I’ll agree with you…
You’re totally, super uber-cool! The red pilledness really shines through you and you are a sparkling example of the of fella’s found in the red pill community 🙂 everyone applauds you.
(really really hoping this works for that lacking of your self esteem there)
;D
lol answer the question what do you have to offer beside your vagina?????Lol
mangina like that guy who wrote this articles are doom he does not know the system he is what i call a pussy begger lol thoses pathethic guy who need to spend money on social prostutes like you to feel wanted by society lolol thats pathethic while i just pay a profesional hooker cum and done with it till next time no naggin no bullshit lol mgtow style is the best
again with the lowself steem crap???lolol as you can see i got a pic but i think your feminist brain cant see that lol show youself super high steem chick???your feminist method dont have effect.on me lol
wonder how come you talking about lowself steem and you dont even show your face lolololol feminist cunt, go back to the kitchen where your belong
xD Wow. The best part is knowing that you aren’t saying this ironically..
But Oh! Thanks for reminding me. i was gonna make pizza today 🙂 Thank you. You are such a useful man-beast!
hahahahahaha feminist cunt, i treat you like this because that how you treat a dumb feminist lol
still no answer??? what do you have to offer??? beside your vagina??? any men with a job can get vagina anytime he wants, and the best of all he can be able to pick not just one, but differents ones, so why in the world, a man gonna risk everything he own, and his time, in some western cunt, that might turn on him and use the court system against him??? only an idiot like that mangina who wrote this articles lol, he claim mgtow are virgin??? lmfaoooo what a funny guy me as a red pill man get more pussy than any married men, its a fact, once a men get married and the woman have a child sex stop? proved
Omg, a laughing monkey thinks im a dumb feminist! 😮 What ever will I dooo?
Well I wouldn’t offer anything to you, obviously lol. Not interested in laughing monkeys.
hahaha i dont want anything from you, i can get any women i want, and like i said the best of all no attach, LOL so what make you think i want you?? you see how you lack of brain cell, what do you have to offer beside your vagina??? you know you got nothing, you as a women, expect the man to do everything for you, aint it supposes to be 50 50?? dont women wanted equal right??? work as like us men, ect??? but when its come to date and marriages you want to keep your money and let the men spend his, lololol thats why i said most women are social prostitutes
you are a feminist and that guy who wrote this article is the biggest mangina i ever read, lol
You know… The really funny thing is that none of the things you said apply to me. Im asexual.
But on the other hand, you probably like flinging poop. That’s what monkeys do 🙂
only an idiot like that guy who wrote this articles dont believe, that women are evil all women are they dont care about that man, they care about themself, they see us as a machine nothing else, here the proof http://www.mgtow.com/video/the-benefit-of-signing-a-marriage-contract-prison/
this is the best proof, that getting into relationship andeven married its dangerous, this is the power a woman could have over a man if he decide to married her im not saying this happen all the time, once a man get married, after a few year his wife will own his ass and can do this to him http://www.mgtow.com/video/the-benefit-of-signing-a-marriage-contract-prison/
you are a what?? asexual? wtf is that lol
Pick up a book, mr. Monkey.
still cant a answer a simple question?>? what do you have to offer beside your vagina???
pick up a book?? i only read books im interesting to, like the manipulated man by esther vilar, and men on strike by helen smith, i dont read stupid ass book, like the one you probably, you know there is a book for feminist call the power of the pussy?? you probably read the book
Nothing to you, monkey.
heheheheh see, you getting mad typical feminist, lol of course you aint got nothing to offer, all you have to offer is a faces full of make up. and try to look cute, so blue pillers and mangina men, take you out to dates and you can get free stuff LOl face it its the truth
Im not mad o.o Why would I be?
I just find it weird that you think you know what I do in my sparetime. For the record, I dont wear make up and Iv never been on a date. That doesnt interest me. The really sad part is that your brain is so fried up that you truly think all women are the same to the point of you accusing a stranger of doing things they have never done. Even more perplexing is you fail to realize what an idiot it makes you look like. But I don’t mind 🙂 It’s interesting to see what comes out of your mind. You’re providing very good insider info on the brain of mgtow… like a good monkey! 😀
Now I will have lots of info to report to the secret society of Feminists against Non-compliant Men. Soon…. Soon you shall all be our slaves! uahahahha!
never said all women were the same but 99& of western women are, and someone need to be really really stupid to even married one, you saw the link I sent?? in that link I sent its tells all the power a women would have over a men if anything go wrong, and like I said only an idiot get into a contract like that, for what?? for a piece of ass??? lol like I said I get plenty of vagina and I don’t need to get married
oh im a idiot now? lol does this link make me an idiot?? http://www.mgtow.com/video/the-benefit-of-signing-a-marriage-contract-prison/
I know your kind, you a feminist, typical feminist crap not all women are like that not all women are like that , who blaming the women??? im blaming the system, that is hostile to us men, and the media, that’s who I blame and the white knights and mangina and blue pillers, lol but anyway don’t be mad because lot lot of men are learning the system, and are aware of the danger, good luck with your 10 cats
Well i never intend on getting married either. it’s a pretty pointless thing. But if you truly think that females and males cant connect as friends or human beings, instead of just seeing each other as ways to get sex well… then it’s entirely your own fault that you can’t find a “good” lady. But it doesn’t matter 🙂 Soon you shall all be slaves! Wahhahahha! But I’ll be nice to you. You’ll get one of the more comfortable cottages cos you amuse me so ^^!
i dont want to, you still don’t get it, LOLOLOL, im not a blue pill mangina, I don’t need a woman companionship to fell full fi, I just need them for sex that’s it, you still talking to me as if im a blue pil mangina hahahahahahahahahahhahaa, don’t you know that one of the best benefit us mgtow have its our freedom??? having a woman living with us, its not freedom, woman get this thing once a month chances mood, ect the naggy nahhh il pass lol
I amuse you because im telling you the truth, women are social prostitutes, nothing elses, they date any men that make more money than them,, if you don’t make more money than her she would not date you, meaning she only care about herself, its the truth, read a book for once, here the manipulated man by esther vilar, and you said a females and males connect??? only for sex yes, for anything elses women does not care about that men, because they see us as machine, they rather spend more time with their females friends talking crap and blah blabh than connect to her male boyfriend read the book the manipulated man, by esther vilar, and you will see what im telling you its truth
If you haven’t noticed I haven’ made any assumptions about you(except you being a laughing monkey of which you fit the bill pretty well).
I mere made a statement that if you think men and women can’t be friends, then it is due to your own small mind.
Anyway… you “need” women for sex? Need them? Interesting. What else can you tell me about that? 🙂
well of course i need them for sex, you want me to fight nature??? i love vagina very much, im just not stupid to get myself into slavery, its nature, we men we love sex, what can we do about it??? but only the smarts ones, learn the truth about the system, the system created, marriages, thats legal prostituion right there, a woman sell herself to a man who made good money, so she become his property, but in reality that same system, its against men, when divorced come, because that man after a divorced gonna have to still pay her, lol
im not gonna lie, the way women dress theses days, its just wow, today i saw lot of women in yoga pants, i was like damnnn, i was looking through their pants and could see their vagina, i cannot fight nature, but i know their intention, by dressing like that, they want attention, but of course not just from any men, they want attention from men in good cars expensive clothes money, i know all that, so i just enjoing the view from far away, and see the chump falling into their trap lol,
the only reason us men need women is for sex, but women need us for everything,,
I don’t dispute that the system is fucked up. I also don’t dispute that divorce laws need to change to be fair to all human beings. I already know how fucked up the system is, and this is just a small part of fucked up things in a majorly fucked up system.
That wasnt my point though and that also wasn’t the original discussion.
lame troll.
asexual aka not interested in sex
lame ass feminist, I bet you one ugly fat ass, lol no wonder you aint got a pic, not move on ugly ass cunt lol
not just that’s system its fucked up, even dating its fuck up, because women or should I said feminist, are telling women, that if a man don’t pay for everything they should dump us, so that is fuck up to, women theses day are allow to work and earn same and even more than men, so you still need to learn a lot,
women, wanted to be equal, be able to work ect, but yet they want to be treated that traditional way, wtf is that??? you bitches want to use our money and keep your money, to buy all that comestic, crap, like I said women got nothing to offer but a vagina and we can a vagina for cheaper LOL
its is the orininal discussion, because that mangina who wrote this have no clue, look at this guy, he in the friend zone, and saying mgtow are virgin lmao and look at this guy hahahhahah that https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c6f7f709276d1a67893b387b12a30626e2cf3186db42526822181a58a4c3eccb.png
Sorry completely disagree. Men are beginning to realize that when it comes to relationship they have all to lose and little to gain. It is really as simple as that.
Having kids is a burden that men really don’t mind having as they equate the burden with the joy of being a father. Being a husband on the other hand is just plain nerve racking. And yes women are really only for sex for some men, as they are usually very poor companionship. The best cooks in the world are men, scientist, engineers, etc. Men are just more fun to be around with. We don’t avoid females, we actually spent a lot of time with females to come to this conclusion.
That is of course true for some men…
But it’s really quite dull when men who feel this way try to discredit the men who genuinely found a female they enjoy the company of… of the men who actually have good female friends.
The biggest mistake is participating in the logical fallacy that men and and females cant get along. They can. It just seems to be a rarer thing than most people would believe. But I also don’t see that as a new thing. Many relationships were based on defined gender roles, and so there was a lot of balance, even if the man and woman in question didn’t get along particularly well. I can see how in modern times, this just isn’t possible anymore. It means that a lot of females and males will not get along, and also wont force it. Our culture is also a lot more egocentric than it used to be, so it’s ok to focus on ourselves and not have to sacrifice our own happiness for others. Even if some people with political agendas try to make this a crime.
But all this aside…. A lot of females and males are actually good friends and treat each other as ‘people’… not a gender… Its not like i personally think of my male friends as “male friend”… they are simple “friend” in my mind. Same for girls.
It is simply a false thing when people try to make it seem like men and females have absolutely nothing to offer each other but their biological features. It really makes no sense in my mind… I guess because I’ve never had that sort of mentality. I love all my friends and they are all awesome. This alone is reason enough to believe that the problem between males and females is merely political and cultural for now… And of course the incompatibility that sparks from just being humans with unique interests and requirements.
I mean… if men and women couldn’t be friends… are my friends then all a figment of my imagination?
Oh Dear, you seem to completely miss the point. Just like women, men actually take a risk when they find a woman as a spouse. You have bad apples and you have your good oranges. Why we go our own way, is to avoid risk. I had a very bad past when it comes to women, it almost killed me, financially, and I don’t see the point in being with one any more. But I was also hurt financially by a woman that caused me many years of my life, and I also lost a sibling, because his girlfriend did not take better care of him. If you are going to marry a foreign girl and you cant speak their native language, be CAREFULL. He did not know how to ask for help, I guess. She took all al his money when he passed away from a curable infection, including 2 houses and a car, that he bought.
So thanks but no more. Being alone is a lot safer. Well I am speaking from experience anyway. Most men here I guess have had their share of bad apples.
I do not miss the point at all. I have read and understood why this mgtow came to be.
But mgtow community is an echo chamber, like it or not. You lock yourselves away in chambers where no one can disagree. Then you come here where people arent mgtow, and you expect everyone to agree or tell them they are stupid if they dont.
Anyway, my point isnt that a lot of men havent suffered at the hands of females. The stories are really quite scary at times.
My point is that a lot of mgtow often focus on the wrong things. They have engulfed themselves into this mentality for so long, that it becomes a question of superiority, natural gender roles, what makes a man manly and so on…. When the focus should be on the things that give the destructive females so much power that they can destroy a man’s life.
For example, you say: “I also lost a sibling, because his girlfriend did not take better care of him.”
I am truly sorry to hear this btw….
But this isn’t a question of females in general… or the legal power of females to destroy a man… It is the question of a neglectful individual. This person could have been make or female, and their lack of care and concern would have been just as deadly.
And please dont tell me that had it been a man, it would have been different. That would be a dishonest statement.
Anyway I guess I live in a society where problems like these just arent that bad… or at least they seem to be evenly divided between men and females… Its scary how many stories i have heard of abusive and neglectful males as well.
But all of that doesn’t matter. What matters is when the government and law neglects us all…. By not encouraging us to be better humans… or to by not protecting us against those who have unfair means to hurt us.
So no… i dont miss the point… I think if you seriously want to avoid any risk at all… mgtow is definitely for you. And no one should try to shame you out of it. No one should try to force you to do something you dont want to do….
My problem is just with those who see this as a totally black/white issue. Who see this as a problem caused only by females and who think that females are inferior/dumb/dangerous by nature.
For example… what about when its a person whos abused/killed by an abuser who happens to be male… but where the law couldnt do anything against it?
Terrible crap happens everywhere. And please dont take this to think that I mean that mgtow isnt a legit response.
I guess what Im trying to say is that mgtows would do well in realizing that there is more to the problems of today’s world than “women are evil/dangerous” …. Of course they are dangerous when you put a loaded gun in their hands and tell them they can get away with murder… The people with no morals or who have brought up to believe its ok, wont think twice about it.
Ok just remember it happened to me as well as my sibling. Just happening one time is bad, but twice, well I am afraid that speaks volumes. Losing my brother and well myself, because of lousy female, well what are the odds of your family member getting hit by lighting twice. So yes you are right, crap happens everywhere, but just more often when you have a woman around.
So yup its a black and white issue, have a woman, a Boeing 747 might fall from the sky and land on you and if you conduct an audit, its the woman that did it.
Really its that simple. I mean if we called the earth, father earth rather than mother earth, natural disasters would be half as often and twice as fun to be on father earth.
Staying away from women is like staying away from a beach that has a sign post stating that its shark season. And even if you don’t get eaten by a shark, you will definitely step on some broken infectious bottle or get stung by a man o war.
No not all women are like that, but if it can happen to my brother and myself, well pretty sure the odds are really stacked up against most men, not all men. Try at your own risk; men, as for MGTOW, we grew up, we grew wise.
Sorry if you find this offensive Nikki, its just my opinion.
I do not find it offensive. I understand where you’re coming from. I even understand why you feel this way. I have quite a high sense of empathy … which results in me identifying with whoever I speak with. But it also allows me to realize why you feel this way.
Since this is an agree-to-disagree situation, I have nothing further to say than to wish you the best in the rest of your life.
Marginally small percent ??
Ok, in my company (middle Europa) there are 12 males and 2 females in office (not counting the people doing other things I know less about..)
Of the males:
4 are married
2 date but “will never marry”
The rest has simply given up on women (and not for income or status issues), got burnt or are simply afraid of getting ripped of.
At the same time the 2 women are nagging about the guys giving them the boot when even the word relationship comes up.
So in my little work-world 50% of males are MGTOW and do not even know it (except me)
“Marginally small percent” is not 50%
Im happy to see that your logic tells you a number of 12 males is a good sample size 🙂 Perhaps you even have that many brain cells.
“I am an existential nihilist”
I’ve enjoyed reading your responses in this thread (which I came across by dint of the usual ‘unusual google search sequence’), and in light of the label quoted you give yourself, would like to offer this link for your perusal:
http://discoursesbymeherbaba.org/v1-13.php
It covers the basic architecture of what I’ve searched for & learnt about over the last 3 decades (from innumerous sources, both online & off, which didn’t include MB’s discourses until finding said site/link just a couple of years ago), a search forged & underpinned throughout by clinical depression. If it ends up speaking to you then nihilism surely no longer will.
——–
As for those males who have failed to match the intelligence Nikki has displayed in her responses here, I have one very simple and powerful fact to relay:
What you get in life is not what you want, but who you are.
When you understand this to your core, then you’ll no longer have problems with members of either sex again. Note I didn’t say you wont have problems full stop, just not with anyone outside of yourself. Anyone bringing shit into your life is merely acting as a mirror to your own unconsciousness. When you change who you are, you change the nature of the people who come into your life. Until you realize this, you are trapped. Now one response to this being trapped can be to run off by yourself and be alone so NO ONE can bring shit into your life, but this response does nothing to relieve oneself of the trap: the trap is inside of oneself, it doesn’t rest with others outside of oneself. As another saying would have it…
Those that don’t go within, are left to go WITHOUT.
If you choose a partner on criteria other than sex, then quite a bit. You know – good conversation, emotional/financial support. Perhaps someone who can hold a polite conversation with your family or co-workers. If it applies, someone to go to one of those awful +1 events with. (Seriously though, women plausibly have handbags, so you could fit an awful lot of canapes and those tiny bottles of cava in there. I haven’t done it myself yet, but I’m honestly considering it… 😀 )
No silly – it’s more complicated than a male vs. female narrative. Just because the person who screwed you over was female, that doesn’t necessarily mean that females have a better experience in society. I don’t know your personal circumstances, and I’m not going to write as though I do. However, it would be naive and a little disingenuous to imagine that females have it easier.
Please don’t misunderstand – there are massive problems here. For example, one of the major feminist issues left is the difference between what’s expected of men and women as far as children are concerned.
Basically – society seems to have gone entirely in the wrong direction about that. In my head at least, one of the last major feminist issues is that men and women should be equally responsibly for their children. And no – I don’t mean that men should pay for them and women should raise them! Quite frankly, that was some kind of BS government scheme, which was trying to take all this new-fangled feminism on board, but was set in this old fashioned time, when men were the breadwinners and women looked after the kids.
We all know this is a nonsense way to live our lives though, right? Both the mother and father tend to be invested, (emotionally at least,) in the kid.
If subsequent governments had genuinely followed what the non-extremist, sensible feminists were saying, then we would be in a much better position.
I must admit that this is a conspiracy theory of mine. The people making these policies did it in these extremist ways, kind of on purpose, in order to make sure that people who self-identified as feminists would look like callous nutters. No idea whether or not that’s true (yes, yes – maybe I’m the nutter, etc,) but from what’s happened over the last 20 years, I can’t conscientiously discount it. 🙁
Interesting, you clearly returned after my response to you but you chose not to address it and instead came to target this fallacy (even though statistical data proves his anecdote).
Nice character attack too. Not as well enacted as mine on the two of you though was it?
So let’s consider it from the terse application and abandonment of your coarse logic:
Has there ever in the recorded history of humankind (barring the past decade) been a open revolt to cohabitation and reproduction by men against women?
No.
Has there ever been a movement concerned with the well being of men excluding direct benefit to women and children, barring again, the last decade?
No.
The rate of marriage significantly drops after men reach the age of 28. The largest demographic disinterested in marriage today is among men age 19-35.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2015/05/23/millennials-showing-less-interest-getting-married/aX8TpXzjaz7PgD1o1oiYYL/story.html
The more men seriously vocalize that marriage is a losing gamble, to their estranged sons, to their friends, to complete strangers, the faster this will grow.
Men avoid expressing themselves because of an instinctual response to prove dominance or at least equitably to each other and potential mates. The fact that men are already voicing dissent, aggressively, with conviction, is a death knell.
It’s already too late to push for more husbandry in the form of silent dissent while greater expectations (air conditioner-gate, man spreading, shirt gate, gamer gate….) are pushed onto them. At some point the bar is not worth reaching for. Especially when other women are giving away a night’s worth of affection for a couple of drinks.
Women seem to ignore that men deal with absolutes, are recklessly convicted, and willing to act without regard for the future once convictions are made absolute. Think about sports fans, and racists, and violent criminals. Those are some archetypes that are mostly male occupied. Have you ever wondered why?
Ummmm…. you never replied to me. I went to your profile and all your replies are to Kinta Walsh. I dont get notifications when the replies arent to me.
All I have to say is meh. I don’t believe in marriage. I also don’t believe in one-nightstands. I believe in people as individuals and not as genders. If you don’t like the company of one individual girl, it’s your right to feel that way.
I am certainly not trying to push husbandry on people lol.. or marriage.
“Think about sports fans, and racists, and violent criminals. Those are some archetypes that are mostly male occupied. Have you ever wondered why?”
I could go the mgtow route and make up some fantasy-narrative about how all men are criminal, aggressive children not being able to control their own habits/emotions/actions and consistently act against their own benefit.
And before you get all man-aggressive at me, I don’t actually believe that 😉
Well I can only assume the satellite feature of replying via discus without returning to the thread lends plausible deniability then.
I used husbandry in the true sense, not the marriage corollary, if “push onto” was too strong in your opinion, then perhaps rephrasing it as “nawalt convincing argument” still is more of the same.
Although I’d encourage you to consider the whole (of society) in this case rather than you as an individual, because as long as the overarching system that allows you to exercise changing your position from “I’m against the current configuration of inter gender relations” to “this has short and long term benefits to me and strong odds of success with no repercussions if betrayal fails” any consideration of your position is moot. You aren’t obligated to maintain it.
Keep in mind the subject is really an attack on general dismissal of female relations, while encouraging non committal sex and or marriage, entirely hinging on the sole facet of sex. Pua’s are gaming the system exploiting it while dismissing women as people. Mgtows are dismissing women as too risky and unrewarding an investment. As I said, there is no guarantee tomorrow that your investment today will be reciprocated.
This brings us to the platonic relations you mentioned in another response. Platonic relations exist at a much lower state than sexual ones. Consider the time one has available to distribute. Having platonic friends takes a massive bow once an individual engages in a sexual relationship. If you attempt to maintain a sexual relationship and spend as much time with that partner as you do the other platonic relationships, an element of instability is invariably included.
A sexual partner has more responsibility as they must have all the platonic traits as well as sexual currency: trust, mutual sexual interest, availability with a higher rate of response etc. To trade these responsibilities for a platonic level of engagement (time) is unsatisfying and likely little more than hooking up.
In short, we have sex with people we find best suited to invest time in. Platonic friendship is generally derived from at least one facet of shared interest. Mgtow operates under the very real observation that men have more shared interest with men than with women. Just as with sexual interest, platonic relationships operate on choosing the ideal candidates for time investment.
Your best friends only get that greater investment of time than your satellite friends because you share similar ideals, goals, and interests.
To argue that female platonic relations are comparable in value to male relationships would necessitate evidence of proportional shared interest and benefit, not simply gambling that an individual is some unicorn that is magically not completely overwhelmed by other friends and love interests, they too are seeking their own level of peers.
In short, the best platonic intersex relations are already inundated by sexual relationships and peers while the ideal relationship would be sexual as that grants the greatest access to that person even only as a platonic relationship.
Who can claim they’ve maintained better platonic relationships without even one party having sexual interest? That’s hardly believable.
The conviction paragraph was not solely about violence (nor would I say that was the pov of mgtow, there is already victim narrative feminism touting that line). The point was about how men deal in absolutes, with conviction.
Most men don’t agree to disagree. They vehemently defend their position (case in point?) and will only abandon it when it becomes wholly untenable. Of course that has the undesirable inclusion of cognitive dissonance, physical attacks, etc. It is a general characteristic of men.
Are there exceptions? Come on, there are exceptions to the prospect of losing your life savings at the casino, does that mean you argue the least likely case? Take the derivative enough times and those exceptions are removed.
Is man aggression bigger and badder than normal aggression?
Im glad you got all of that out of your system 🙂 Do you feel better now?
Anyway, really the problem is when you guys attack the character over a system that is unfair 🙂
Do you make friends by dating them? No. You make them by stumbling across them, talking to them, and then discovering you have a lot of fun together. This happens spontaneously usually.
“Im glad you got all of that out of your system 🙂 Do you feel better now?”
Ah yes, ad hominem attack with absolutely zero substance. I like to pepper my insults with substance as I feel it makes for better reading by the silent majority looking on.
This is indicative of the duplicity of your earlier statements that I just said women would claim then later break because they were under no obligation to maintain. You said something on here that I’m too lazy to look up again to quote so I’ll paraphrase:
about you having such great empathy (Which feminist writer claimed women had empathy a man could not?)
And didn’t you also allude to coming here to “know and understand?”
Which one of those statements are you going to claim you’re staying true to when you toss out insults like this opener? Tell me, was it my precognizance that you, unlike all these other women (I’d like to point out every woman I’ve known for two months or more has said this to me, many guys as well), would act exactly as I said you would? Say this, do the opposite.
No of course not. The fact is you don’t have any great empathy, you have no real interest in understanding people outside of understanding how to best them with hypoagency.
You’ll continue to refute that because you must maintain the facade of good morale standing but it’s quite obvious to anyone looking that you don’t have that, and far more obvious after its been pointed out.
“Attack the character over a system that is unfair”
What is this word salad? The character of individual women? The character of the system? The system is unfair? The attack is unfair? Smiley face is unfairly attacking the system is the problem with you guys?
Are friends met “spontaneously” by chance? Yeah, some, especially earlier in life. I’d be clear here and state that I don’t meet new people and automatically find space for them in my life. They stay as acquaintances and remain so until I’d rather spend more time with them than other friends. Time restrictions like I pointed out earlier. If you’re booting friends from your immediate circle to make time for chance encounters of the friend kind perhaps you don’t value friendship much or don’t have all that much fun in common with the more established relationships.
You should really look into how men see friendship. We don’t have an army of people we kind of like, we have 4-5 people that all fill a different role. The more varied one’s interests or needs, the more friends that male will have to suit those needs.
For example a mechanic will have friends like a carpenter, a car painter, and a plumber. They all share an interest in mechanic work but rarely are they all solely mechanics.
Time management comes into play if that mechanic also plays chess, debates logic, and is a computer engineer.
No I’m not a mechanic, but I have a friend…
As I said dating has a higher standard than platonic friendship. I’m not sure how you got to dating to find friends; I’d argue it’s quite the opposite, and believe I already did, but I will say that sexual attraction to women really lowers the expectations men place on women. Men routinely go further out of their way for a women they are sexually interested in than they would for a platonic friend, even if sex isn’t on the table yet.
Like I said before, straight men don’t hold women to the same standard they hold men to for the simple reason that a woman has a unique characteristic their male friends lack. I’m certain I can remain vague on this.
Boring insults and unable to understand context like replies to the statement of “marginally small percent”
You are an exemplary smart individual.
Want a bigger sample size ?
70% of men aging 20 to 34 not married enough ?
That’s not an ad hominem attack(ad hominem is when you use someone’s character to attack someone’s point, when really it doesnt matter what character is behind the point). I think you misunderstand that term..
If anything, I was being silly and childish and making a dumb retort at you with absolute zero substance ;D Im sorry if I annoyed you.
Ok I’ll be honest… Im just not that interested in discussing this stuff with you. You seem to come from a position of weird, hidden hostility, also Im frankly a bit over this Migtoe topic.
Someone like you will come here and make up fake narratives about your opponent in order to make some point, that I honestly dont understand yet(like what are you actually trying to tell, other than making remarks about my logic and whatnot?). You try to make theories about me, and others too. Lol I did check your profile(in search of the fabled lost reply) and come on… did you really have to use the “You are undesirable” insult towards me and that other chick? Maybe some of us are undesirable to you, which Im sure you know doesnt matter to anyone… But it’s an insult of the same caliber as those who say that all Migtoes are virgins who can’t get dates. It’s not a good insult or a valid point.
Yes, sometimes I say antagonistic things too. Im probably even guilty of making up fake narratives about people(the retort at you doesnt count because that one was just meant to be silly, and was mostly doing it because I didnt feel like addressing most of what you said)..
Really tough, you have no idea who I am. I have no idea who you are. But im a bit tired of people who participate in “i know you better than your know yourself” games. This is not an insult towards your character btw. I know that I dont know you. And the fact that you chose to put less diplomatic effort into discussing with me, is not a remark about you as a person. Just you in context to me. You can think what you want about me, but your attitude is the reason i am not motivated to really reply and put in effort. Your attitude is the sort of attitude that brings this part of my personality forth. I am simply not motivated to engage. Why would I? You’re sniping for ways to undermine me. All your posts have been filled with small, subtle insulting remarks. So i say myeh.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you though 🙂 Maybe its your way of showing lurvee! ^.^
The other reason I dont feel like discussing further is because I dont believe in these silly theories about “Male nature” and “Female nature”. I Still maintain that people are individuals, and yes the laws are bad. But to mingle these two topics in such ways as to create “us vs them” mentalities… I don’t care much for that and i just cant take it seriously. Like to me it feels like people are trying to tell me fairy tales are real.
And yes, I am changing topics completely, but that is because this thing about human interaction has begun catching my interest a lot more than mgtow recently(mgtow is old news) …. I am interested in why people communicate with each other the way they do. Why it’s easy to dismiss each other as “losers”, “dumb”, “virgins who cant get dates” just from one single interaction or one single fact we know about each other.
Maybe Kinta Walsh inspired me to think about this stuff a lot more after she rudely scolded me 🙂
Anyway if you want to keep throwing character attacks at me, have at it. It just gives me more data work from.
Marriage isn’t an indicator of man/woman interaction. Marriage is an outdated concept, and I say good riddance. I apologise for the insult ^^
Actually it is an ad hominem known as character assassination. It operates under the manipulation of cognitive dissonance of the audience to garner favour from onlookers through emotional triggers.
An extreme form is typically employed by feminists by calling someone a misogynist. It has been proven to shut down the logical analysis of the argument presented by an opponent in the brain of an onlooker. This encourages others to pile on to one side of a debate.
There is a reason why all political discussions have the same talking points and character assassinations. The majority of people want to take care of women and children, the poor, and themselves, thus politicians all cater to these topics and attack any misstep another politician makes.
Yours was little more than an infantilization attempt. By dismissing my valid argument (which you’ve not countered with any reasoning as to why it is erroneous other than division is bad) with a chiding dismissal akin to the statement “Do you feel better after your tantrum?” and not engaging the logic, you’ve encouraged onlookers to dismiss my points because “angry mgtow.”
This is known science and was recently deployed on a sample study of Facebook
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/06/28/facebook-manipulated-689003-users-emotions-for-science/
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
So yes, when you make an attack and attempt to mask it as fun or childish (another necessary task in maintaining plausible deniability, like Obama’s wage gap comments) you are either knowingly or unknowingly committing an ad hominem.
You keep talking about my attitude, my character, the way I present myself, as if any of that means anything against my arguments. If we were speaking and I had an English accent would that also mean something?
You’re not responding to the topics and instead deferring to the semantics of how I deflate straw men you put up while you refuse to defend your reasoning for choosing women instead of men in any aspect of life and that sexual contact is not a consideration.
While I’ve made a number of arguments that there is no reason for men to prefer women over other men save sexual contact and that only due to sexual contact is there any reasonable trade off for a man to invest positive engagement with women outside of forced cohabitation in the workplace or public.
In order for you to make that argument you would have to proclaim that your gender has as much if not more to offer than the male alternative. There is no example I can think of, barring sex, where men would trade their useful friends for women. There is not a task or hobby that men have interest in that women, in general, excel at.
If you have an argument that refutes that then you should make it.
You should also make the case how even in light of any benefit of displacing a man for a woman in a nonsexual relationship, should you have one that I haven’t considered, what level of risk he is assuming considering gendered domestic violence laws and false rape accusations.
As to the male and female natures there most certainly is a divide here exacerbated by wealth and access to alternative energy (not human effort) like petroleum.
The intelligence bell curve, risk taking behaviors, areas of interest, group gender preference are all researchable definitive spectrums that prove gender difference. These are based on evolutionary needs that existed for millions of generations leading to modern human life. Two thousand years is not going to route half of the programming of the human brain, the half I might add which first receives and processes information.
I’ve drawn conclusions from what you’ve presented your self as here on this forum. Extrapolating that to the “knowing you better argument” is a defensive twitch to avoid considering whether or not there was merit in the assertions.
You made statements to one effect then made contradictions to them, then when called on the duplicity you call it a character attack.
When you make statements attesting to your moral character then defy those statements you’ve created the opportunity to be called on the potential for presenting falsehoods.
You’ll note I avoid making statements to set my moral character. This is intentional.
Also I notice you keep misspelling mgtow. Why? It is an acronym that has meaning. Do you think you are trying to minimise it? What’s the reason for lengthening it?
As for the Us vs them argument, I’ve already said that victim narrative feminism will have to be dismantled, by women, before men come back to the table.
There was just a U.N. conference where Anita sarkaseen among others are trying to censor speech on the internet. Think about how harshly people will react when they aren’t allowed to voice their opinions based on someone else’s idea of what is hate speech. Would you really want to be censored by let’s say “someone like me?”
Mgtows aren’t advocating censorship. Debating facts and positions on the consideration of those facts will always, ALWAYS, lead to people being offended. Look at the debates Noam Chomsky has over just the use of language with other social scientists who have been engaging in debate for decades over just the fineries of detail.
You want the Us vs them to stop then consider which side is attempting to enact legal ramifications in the pursuit of it.
As for garnering a greater understanding of the human mind I suggest:
The Naked Ape
G.E.B.
Marcus Aurelius Meditations
Jung
Art of War
Hagikure
Hemingway
T.H. White
Twain
Dune series
Chomsky
There’s a broad spectrum of heavy and light reading there, incomplete of course but not single stream. Some logic can only be referenced as inductive logic easily hence Hemingway through Frank Herbert.
Taking mathematical logic courses is also a boon.
You’re reeeealllyyy stretching it by calling it an ad hominem :p It was just a childish retort. But maybe i should have just resorted to explaining why I don’t wish to discuss mgtow much with you 🙂 Would that have been an ad hominem?
“and not engaging the logic, you’ve encouraged onlookers to dismiss my points because “angry mgtow.”
Like what on earth? …. I even said I wasn’t serious about that man-anger remark(i was parodying some guys’ habit of turning even the slightest things into a problem of “female nature”), and now you try to get me into a position of having to defend it. Sigh. I already called it though so cant complain.
I will address this part though 🙂 Because this illustrates why im not interested in all the other things you have to say:
“In order for you to make that argument you would have to proclaim that your gender has as much if not more to offer than the male alternative.”
No i dont. It’s not “my” gender. We’re both human for gods sake. I can make an argument whenever I want, and also I dont care about people’s genders. My life isn’t about the most optimal way within tiny margins of errors of doing things. And there is no male alternative of me. There is also no female alternative of you. Believe it or not, you’re unique! 😀 And someone is bound to love that uniqueness be they female or male 🙂 Like if you came across a male friends who was slightly better than another friend, you wouldn’t suddenly go “awww man, crap! I thought I had made the most optimal friend, now I have to get rid of him to make room for my new friend”
A better metaphor would be liking apples more than oranges. But one might like oranges a lot, if they are just ripe and sweet enough, to the point of them being better or equal to the amount that one likes apples. Its just that such oranges are rarer. But you wouldn’t throw away the orange just because you know you might find an apple later on. In fact you might even welcome the variety. Even better, you know you can enjoy that apples when you come across it too because an orange doesnt mean you cant eat apples.
” There is no example I can think of, barring sex, where men would trade their useful friends for women. There is not a task or hobby that men have interest in that women, in general, excel at.
If you have an argument that refutes that then you should make it.”
You make the really bad mistake of regarding “Men” as one Singular consciousness made up of all men and “Women” as one consciousness made up of all women.
Ever wonder why men generally have male friends, and females generally have female friends? It’s not because a man one day said “Im gonna go out and make a MALE friend! hurr!” … no… he went into a male space, found a male dude, and they became friends. No one ever made the argument that males dont generally share more interests than they do with females in general. You made that up yourself.
I am simply stating that men and females can be friends because many men and females do share interests… and some, not all or even the majority, females *do* excell in male dominated activities 🙂
Second thing is, that no one made the arguments that you should trade anyone for any friend. But I like how you subtly made the contrast of “male useful friend” with just “woman” … … 🙁
Also, making friends based on how useful they are sounds negative to me. But i guess we’re all different. Some of us make friends based on how deep discussions we can have with people.. or how many activities we can do each other to have fun. I wouldn’t call that usefulness though… I’ve never felt like I’m “using” my friends.
So I have nothing to refute, cos your points are based on assumptions that I shouldn’t have to refute. In fact the assumption that I’m trying to refute -anything- other than saying that females and males can be friends is an assumption. Oh! I think I finally realized why i’m so reluctant engaging with you! They were loaded with loaded arguments like the one above. I think it’s called loaded question fallacy. Anyway, I’m sure its not on purpose.
But for example “There is not a task or hobby that men have interest in that women, in general, excel at.” insinuates that women have to excel in a topic that men have interest in. There were many of these kinds of small… loaded questions and arguments.
Anyway I may not present my arguments perfectly 🙂 It’s something I’ll continue to improve at. But maybe you should try and reflect on your own as well.
Oh and I keep mis-spelling migtoe cos it kind of amuses me and I don’t like the pronunciation of mgtow when spoken fluidly. The amusement helps me cope with not liking the sound o.o
Bottom line… Nothing I ever do will ever prove or disprove anything about my gender. Even if I was a so-called nawalt, Lots of mgtows(i spelled it right :3) would try to find ways to poke holes in that. Or call such a person a freak of nature and use the basket-full-of-snakes-and-gems example. If society didn’t put anyone at unfair and needless risk, we’d really just be a bunch of people arguing over different ways of doing things.
so, females have flaws, males have flaws. That’s life. I stand by criticizing the system and not the character.
“You’re reeeealllyyy stretching it by calling it an ad hominem :p It was just a childish retort. But maybe i should have just resorted to explaining why I don’t wish to discuss mgtow much with you 🙂 Would that have been an ad hominem?”
No. It would have been the expected response though not quite reasonable if understanding communication was really what you were seeking.
I’d claim the best communication to analyze would be contentious debate. Agreeable people rarely saying anything necessitating deep analysis.
“”and not engaging the logic, you’ve encouraged onlookers to dismiss my points because “angry mgtow.”
Like what on earth? …. I even said I wasn’t serious about that man-anger remark(i was parodying some guys’ habit of turning even the slightest things into a problem of “female nature”), and now you try to get me into a position of having to defend it. Sigh. I already called it though so cant complain.”
That is a necessary redress to maintain plausible deniability.
If you had no reason to make an empty childish fun remark, spurred by some completely unreferenced “guys habit” how would you handle the inverse?
/You’re so cute when you’re trying to make a point! ;)/
“I will address this part though 🙂 Because this illustrates why im not interested in all the other things you have to say:”
Yet you respond…
“”In order for you to make that argument you would have to proclaim that your gender has as much if not more to offer than the male alternative.”
No i dont. It’s not “my” gender. We’re both human for gods sake. I can make an argument whenever I want, and also I dont care about people’s genders. My life isn’t about the most optimal way within tiny margins of errors of doing things. And there is no male alternative of me. There is also no female alternative of you. Believe it or not, you’re unique! 😀 And someone is bound to love that uniqueness be they female or male :)”
You already made the argument men and women can be friends, so yes you do have to explain why this is preferable.
If you don’t dictate which factors play into your selection of friendships, who does? By what margin do you start to deliberate the benefits and costs?
That ex you lent $60 to, what margin of error didn’t you measure that created the reason he was an ex after all?
The gender issue is addressed by the scientific study linked below.
“Like if you came across a male friends who was slightly better than another friend, you wouldn’t suddenly go “awww man, crap! I thought I had made the most optimal friend, now I have to get rid of him to make room for my new friend””
Then you have all the friends you’ve ever made and share your time equally among them no matter the difference between interests and distance?
I’ve told you, time is a limited resource, unless you are holding conventions for your lifetime accumulation of friends, you are choosing the ideal given constraints and preference.
“A better metaphor would be liking apples more than oranges. But one might like oranges a lot, if they are just ripe and sweet enough, to the point of them being better or equal to the amount that one likes apples. Its just that such oranges are rarer. But you wouldn’t throw away the orange just because you know you might find an apple later on. In fact you might even welcome the variety.”
That’s an allegory not a metaphor. I address the food allegory somewhere below.
” There is no example I can think of, barring sex, where men would trade their useful friends for women. There is not a task or hobby that men have interest in that women, in general, excel at.
If you have an argument that refutes that then you should make it.”
“You make the really bad mistake of regarding “Men” as one Singular consciousness made up of all men and “Women” as one consciousness made up of all women.”
No I haven’t. I’ve used modifiers like statistics, generally, as a whole, gender disparity, on average, etc. You’re inserting an absolute when I am repeatedly asking for evidence to defend your assertion that the exception to the norm is reasonable and or preferable.
Even in the quoted text the modifier IN GENERAL is present. Don’t make the mistake of debating your projection of my argument.
“Ever wonder why men generally have male friends, and females generally have female friends? It’s not because a man one day said “Im gonna go out and make a MALE friend! hurr!” … no… he went into a male space, found a male dude, and they became friends. No one ever made the argument that males dont generally share more interests than they do with females in general. You made that up yourself.”
No I didn’t “make it up.” The fact exists and you acknowledge it. I challenged you to provide evidence why males would choose female platonic relations over males. The argument is the same for females.
“I am simply stating that men and females can be friends because many men and females do share interests… and some, not all or even the majority, females *do* excell in male dominated activities :)”
Are the shared interests exclusive to a male female only relationship? What are these interests? Can the same relationship be had between men without the additional risk associated with exposing yourself to false rape allegations, ditched when a romantic interest enters the stage, or can be superseded by deeper passions?
You claim women do excel in “male activities” I would argue women excel at gender neutral activities heavily populated by men. What are your coed examples?
“Second thing is, that no one made the arguments that you should trade anyone for any friend. But I like how you subtly made the contrast of “male useful friend” with just “woman” … … :(”
I made the assertion that more men than women have broader and more valuable usefulness to men and women. (I address trading friends in the next section)
I know zero women who can build me a house and dozens of men, one woman who can work on my car and dozens of men, no women who can write code for me, and a handful of men, no women who can tow my truck, fix my teeth, or plumb my house, and I know many men capable, I know many men well educated on logic, math, and engineering, and only a couple of women, my mother being one of them, I’ve cooked better than any woman I’ve been friends or more with (and most men ftm), the best philosophers I’ve encountered, again, men, the best competition in my areas of interest, men. Etc.
Do women exist capable of attaining an appreciable level in all categories? YES. Are they as available as the much larger population of men? NO. Is there a greater demand for women of this caliber? YES. Is it worth pursuing a platonic relationship with someone already in high demand just to be friends with a woman? NO.
If you can achieve the same relationship quality for less effort and without potential jealousy arising from a love interest aggravated by your impediment to the necessary focus a committed relationship requires etc then you do exactly what is natural to do.
When you need to move your couch to your new house, which of your girlfriends help you get it there?
“Also, making friends based on how useful they are sounds negative to me. But i guess we’re all different. Some of us make friends based on how deep discussions we can have with people.. or how many activities we can do each other to have fun. I wouldn’t call that usefulness though… I’ve never felt like I’m “using” my friends.”
Equal exchange. Using and being useful are two different things. I build you a house, you build new a car. I explain string theory to you, you explain gear ratios in a transmission to me. I help you hone my skills in x, you help me hone my skills in x. I bring you entertaining conversation, you respond in kind.
Useful.
The benefits of spending my time with A vs B are greater and apparent thus I prefer the ideal. My friends are the best friends I can have. I am among the best friends they can have. Our utility to each other is the sole facet of shared interest. Even if that utility is just having fun.
You won’t choose boring, stupid people with no common goals over others that have greater use to you. Even if their only use is deep discussions, one of your? Ideals.
“So I have nothing to refute, cos your points are based on assumptions that I shouldn’t have to refute. In fact the assumption that I’m trying to refute -anything- other than saying that females and males can be friends is an assumption.”
Defending your statements is self development, identifying someone’s assumptions is much more constructive than alluding to them.
“Oh! I think I finally realized why i’m so reluctant engaging with you! They were loaded with loaded arguments like the one above. I think it’s called loaded question fallacy. Anyway, I’m sure its not on purpose.”
These are responses to positions you’ve argued with other people here. Including your response “What SHOULD a woman bring to a relationship?” and “Men and women can be platonic friends.”
If the logical responses to your challenges are “loaded” then were your original contentions rhetoric?
“But for example “There is not a task or hobby that men have interest in that women, in general, excel at.” insinuates that women have to excel in a topic that men have interest in. There were many of these kinds of small… loaded questions and arguments.”
There is no argument you can make that allows people to have enough time to happily spend it committing to something they understand is less than what they can achieve otherwise.
If you’re offered a variety of food you love and a variety of food you like, you stick to the variety that is closer to the ideal. You’d have to be aware you were choosing the ideal to insist on not choosing it.
Unless you can say you equally enjoy being around brilliant minds you share great commonality with, and violent drug addicted hobos who reek of piss, you choose your ideals and favour those ideals when choosing.
Think about any instances where you’ve been forced to choose between two events. Didn’t you choose what you surmised to be the ideal at the time of choosing, even if, you discovered it wasn’t?
When I tell you that men forgo many ideal life goals solely to attract a mate (as mating is also an ideal), and tell you to defend your arguments about male and female platonic relations having comparable relation to the ideal, outside of dominating a relationship what does a person benefit from interacting with an inferior within their sphere of interest? Shouldn’t she have to excel in his interests, or he in hers? Do you seriously gravitate to inferiors around you seeking companionship?
You claim they share interests but then why are there so many more women watching Oprah and men football? Women spending hours grooming and men spending hours playing violent video games?
So yes I am proclaiming women must show extraordinary competence in what men are interested in far from the average of female involvement for there to be a truly platonic friendship that is equitable to the same relationship with a male, and vice versa.
“Anyway I may not present my arguments perfectly 🙂 It’s something I’ll continue to improve at. But maybe you should try and reflect on your own as well.”
I reread them all. Most are other people’s arguments I either cannot refine or refute applied where they are suitable. Western and eastern logic as old as Samaria and China. To quote a Japanese text: “I’ve been honing this blade for centuries, the hands are only most recently mine.”
“Oh and I keep mis-spelling migtoe cos it kind of amuses me and I don’t like the pronunciation of mgtow when spoken fluidly. The amusement helps me cope with not liking the sound o.o”
Fair enough.
“Bottom line… Nothing I ever do will ever prove or disprove anything about my gender.”
Consistent results in experimentation is how we determine values for data so sensitive we can isolate energy signatures that show the existence of the higgs boson, not even the size of an element of an atom.
I won’t bore you with the details of the calculations necessary to produce a sample size or variance of results that proves consistency beyond any known scientific argument propelling previous hypothesis into theory, but take my word for it, physical science has no issue with data sets that prove pattern and differentiation. I’d compel you to consider the research rather than proclaim it is not the case.
http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v7/n6/full/nrn1909.html
“Even if I was a so-called nawalt, Lots of mgtows(i spelled it right :3) would try to find ways to poke holes in that. Or call such a person a freak of nature and use the basket-full-of-snakes-and-gems example.”
Maybe I said this to kisha but I’ll say it again here:
Would you select a daycare for your child if 25% of children were horribly disfigured for attending?
Being the exception to the rule is not provable nor is exclaiming one is, nor is previous history any indicator of future action as there is no obligation to maintain your promise either legally or socially. As a unique human one is free to simply change one’s mind. As a nawalt one’s prerogative must be to change the system to make her assertion legally binding. That’s the commitment necessary to prove conviction.
You cannot operate under rules you don’t agree with, claim dissent, then make no effort to change the rules. That makes you an object.
Snakes and gems holds as an argument for no other reason than gems cannot be proven to forgo future choices that contradict previous promises especially when the law benefits becoming a snake and society ridicules being a gem.
Gender aside, men are made to look like idiots publicly as husbands, while women are made to look oppressed as wives, when the fact is only this level of commitment is truly admirable. But consider the man that leaves the wife: shameful, abandoned her, deadbeat etc. The woman that leaves the man: poor thing, strong, independent, won’t be walked on, etc.
If the law doesn’t make both parties equally accountable, and society holds different opinions based on gender, then change must be enacted. The agent of change will be the people who benefit from it which is the people who were hurt by the previous rendition.
“If society didn’t put anyone at unfair and needless risk, we’d really just be a bunch of people arguing over different ways of doing things.”
I’m not sure what this means. Someone needs to be put in a position needless risk in order for society to function otherwise it’s just a carousel? You are aware any assumed risk is very provable to be a gendered issue that receives no address from the consensus as I’ve pointed out?
“so, females have flaws, males have flaws. That’s life. I stand by criticizing the system and not the character.”
The system, society, is comprised of unique individuals coming to consensus. Where each unique individual sits on that multi dimensional spectrum is relevant.
Consider a racist murderer, he kills other races only. The consensus is he’s a monster, another racist secretly views him as a hero even if the second racist isn’t a murderer. Each unique individual contributes to said system and the consensus moves to and fro due to the influence of those individuals.
Like marijuana reform, prohibition, etc.
Now you don’t need a majority to affect consensus. What you need is a vocal minority and a silent majority. Feminism is not a majority, Nazism was not a majority, mgtow is not a majority, but all are vocal minorities that have strong influence on the majority.
Mgtows existence and sudden growth, is becoming influential. Is that a good thing for intersex relations in the short term? No. But there is no equitable relationships if one side dictates all the terms while having people fired, arrested, or ostracized over perceived slights.
“If you’re offered a variety of food you love and a variety of food you like, you stick to the variety that is closer to the ideal. ”
When making friends, no one is dangling a woman and a guy in front of you and tell you to choose. You also dont HAVE to choose between two people, given that you likely meet/talk to them in different contexts.
“Unless you can say you equally enjoy being around brilliant minds you share great commonality with, and violent drug addicted hobos who reek of piss, you choose your ideals and favour those ideals when choosing.
Think about any instances where you’ve been forced to choose between two events. Didn’t you choose what you surmised to be the ideal at the time of choosing, even if, you discovered it wasn’t?”
Equating men with “brilliant minds” and women with “drug addicts who reek of piss”… not a manipulative tactic at all there.
No one forces you to do anything.
But sometimes I pick what Im used to, and sometimes I dont.
“When I tell you that men forgo many ideal life goals solely to attract a mate (as mating is also an ideal), and tell you to defend your arguments about male and female platonic relations having comparable relation to the ideal, outside of dominating a relationship what does a person benefit from interacting with an inferior within their sphere of interest? Shouldn’t she have to excel in his interests, or he in hers? Do you seriously gravitate to inferiors around you seeking companionship?”
Ah, so women are inferior in men’s sphere of interest, are they? MEN are inferior within male interest spheres lol. I have met many such men. Again, you DONT have to choose between friends. Sometimes you grow apart, but thats it.
And the answer is no. A friend should excel in being a friend. Nothing more nothing less. Friends entail many things. Please be aware that not everyone thinks like you. I certainly dont think in terms of who’s inferior or superior.
I gravitate towards people who are unique, fun, crazy, are intelligent(but they dont have to be) 🙂 … really anything thats interesting to be around. Friends grow apart. Sometimes they dont.
I am an introvert. I dont spend all my time with friends.
Honestly, your sentences are extremely long and difficult to understand. Maybe its because Im not english. But i really cant tell if I misunderstand you most of the time or not(i really hope I am….)
There are attributes you value in people. This is their usefulness to you. These are the attributes you consider useful:
“…unique, fun, crazy, are intelligent(but they dont have to be) 🙂 … really anything thats interesting to be around.”
People who lack these characteristics are not your ideal. You are less attracted to them. You will spend less time with them. Therefore you are choosing your ideal.
That was the corollary I was trying to draw with the brilliant minds/piss hobo contrast. It really wasn’t a gendered example…
Finding people isn’t spending time with people. If we say there are infinite people to make friends with, you still only have so much time to spend with them. This is where you are forced to choose.
For example, friend A invites you to a concert on the same day and overlapping time as friend B invites you to an amusement park. Has this never happened to you in some form?
You make this choice based on ideals. Which friend will take less offense, which friend would you find more “unique, fun, crazy, are intelligent(but they dont have to be) 🙂 … really anything thats interesting to be around,” which friend is more useful, based on your values?
You aren’t forced by someone else, you are, as I said, forced by constraints due to time and ideals.
“Men are inferior in male spheres”
Relative to other men? Sure. Relative to women? No? If it were the case, why would it be a male sphere? Not all men dominate all male spheres. Not all women dominate female spheres. But they are identified as such by measure of population and relative success within the field aren’t they?
For example, basketball is dominated by black men. Yes there is a Chinese man who is at the top of the field but does that mean we start arguing more Chinese people should be in the NBA, or that they are equally suited?
Or that because there is one shining example that isn’t black, that somehow all the necessary factors like height, speed, and stamina that can be observed to be disproportionately distributed among the two races, we ignore those variances to the ideal in the name of refusing to “see color”?
That’s ridiculous. Basketball would get worse if that were the case.
Let’s use a gendered example then. The women’s soccer team just won their world cup. Including Hope Solo who hospitalized her sister and nephew, threatened the cops that arrived on the scene and was never suspended or lost her sponsorship from Nike unlike all the male stars who are defamed for life, but I digress.
The woman’s team practices with men’s high school teams. They almost always lose.
Should the world’s best women in a sport where physical contact is largely barred be considered to excel in a male sphere given they can’t beat high school boys?
Should they get millions of dollars while the high school boys who dominate them get nothing?
If you “Don’t see gender” then what you must see here is that for no reason whatsoever some people are getting no attention, and no reward, for besting other people who are getting both, despite having not yet attained their personal zeniths.
This doesn’t mean women don’t have fantastic qualities that men lack, for example, women are more communal and cooperative on average.
Now you mentioned “not everyone thinks like you.” Well obviously, but most men do. You also do think of people as superior and inferior. You just don’t use as concise terms.
Instead you say what you prefer and say nothing about what you don’t. Instead you say you’ll choose indiscriminately and ignore time constraints and personal preference and other people’s shortcomings to your ideal and anything else inconvenient to your position.
At some point reality plays a role.
“Instead you say what you prefer and say nothing about what you don’t. Instead you say you’ll choose indiscriminately and ignore time constraints and personal preference and other people’s shortcomings to your ideal and anything else inconvenient to your position.”
That is because this is the truth. I have ideals, and people who lean to my ideals catch my attention quicker. But I have often misjudged people, or got into situations in which i talked to people i never thought would become my friend, yet did, thus I stumbled across ripe, sweet oranges, and no extra effort went into this.
At times, my ideals even changed or made room for more. I am not static.
Trust me… Ripe, sweet oranges exist. And it doesn’t even take extra effort to get them. They could randomly pop up in any given context.
“Relative to other men? Sure. Relative to women? No?”
Um. Wrong. There are males who are worse at male-things than some girls who are better at them. sigh. That is why people should be judged as human beings and individuals. Not genders.
” If it were the case, why would it be a male sphere? ”
Because that is the Semantic word we chose for a space which is mostly dominated by males. The reason there are fewer girls is because fewer girls can measure up, but those that do are as much “worth” as the males.
“For example, basketball is dominated by black men. Yes there is a Chinese man who is at the top of the field but does that mean we start arguing more Chinese people should be in the NBA, or that they are equally suited?”
I didn’t argue for that. I also am not arguing that any women should be anywhere. I never even made any statement that closely resembles this. Don’t use strawmen. Don’t put words in my mouth. This is annoying -_- .
*edit* I forgot to add, that a chinese men who are equally suited, SHOULD be regarded as equally suited.The fact that they are rarer doesnt mean all basketball players should be black.
“Now you mentioned “not everyone thinks like you.” Well obviously, but most men do. ”
Oh… I have met lots of men. I can assure you none of them think like you. I cant speak for most men of course. But be careful with statements like “most” when you really have no idea how anyone thinks but you.
All i can say is you have a very interesting perspective on what what makes a friend, and what makes someone worth something.
“That is because this is the truth. I have ideals, and people who lean to my ideals catch my attention quicker. But I have often misjudged people, or got into situations in which i talked to people i never thought would become my friend, yet did, thus I stumbled across ripe, sweet oranges, and no extra effort went into this.”
So you admit to having ideals, preferring them, making conclusions based on them, but hold the contingency that you have misjudged people who happened to be iconic of them based on limited understanding?
This is the gambler’s fallacy. The short logic is: Because I’ve been wrong before, there exists times I will be wrong again.
Godel’s incompleteness theorem rule 2 comes into play as well.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_theorems
And anyway facts are facts. People do choose friends the way I have said they do.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130123-what-are-friends-really-for
“I didn’t argue for that. I also am not arguing that any women should be anywhere. I never even made any statement that closely resembles this. Don’t use strawmen. Don’t put words in my mouth. This is annoying -_- .”
It is not a straw man. It is an allegory used to prove that people are in fact different no matter how much you attempt to assert they are indifferentiable, and that any exception to an explicitly provable set based on those differentiating aspects is not disproving the rule. It was never a rewording of your argument.
Here’s a Dr Seuss variant:
Tall people don’t buy small beds.
This is what your repeated argument sounds like:
“Sometimes they do! And sometimes it’s better!”
That’s me, putting words in your mouth. Much all of your assertions that I was secretly saying x when I clearly said y.
I used your statements
“I dont believe in these silly theories about “Male nature” and “Female nature”. ”
And
“We’re both human for gods sake. I can make an argument whenever I want, and also I dont care about people’s genders.”
To challenge you with the real world fact that solely because of GENDER some people are world famous and well paid for a skill that others, who have proven themselves to be better at that skill, are entirely ignored, because of gender.
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/uswnt-vs-u-17-usmnt.1939180/
Now I’ve linked data concerning science’s conclusion on gender, real world examples of differentiation by race and gender (I could go on with any measurable difference but your position is only “I refuse to consider these inconvenient facts” over and over so I won’t bother with more vague IQ clusters or religious/cultural trends), I’ve given you a solid list of literature to consider and classes to take to improve your understanding of it.
You’re not defending your reasoning outside of repeating:
“Just because it’s likely to have the same outcome based on certain conditions, doesn’t mean it will every time”
But when that logic is taken to the limit it always becomes the gambler’s fallacy.
Men can win the lotto.
Just because the gun goes off half the time doesn’t mean it will this time.
Sometimes short people do get into the NBA so short people should still focus on making it despite the likelihood they won’t.
You’ll only get pulled over drunk driving 5% of the time so it’s a perfectly reasonable risk to assume.
How many of these do you want?
At any rate, you’ve been making assumptions about my arguments such as saying they are gendered when they aren’t, saying they were yours when they weren’t, and generally just looping this same “but what if” rhetoric, so, this will be the last post I make adding new information.
If you respond, what I will do instead is, I’ll post your comments contradicting yourself directly next to each other. There’s little else I can do for you to help you understand communication and quite clearly nothing I can do to help you understand the male experience.
“If you respond, what I will do instead is, I’ll post your comments contradicting yourself directly next to each other. ”
And I will point out how every single argument you’ve made has been a beggin the question fallacy or loaded argument/question.
“So you admit to having ideals, preferring them, making conclusions based on them, but hold the contingency that you have misjudged people who happened to be iconic of them based on limited understanding?
This is the gambler’s fallacy. The short logic is: Because I’ve been wrong before, there exists times I will be wrong again.”
This doesnt make any sense. Like I literally cant decipher your sentences in this paragraph. But it sounds like a loaded question.
Btw I hold the belief that I “may” be wrong. Not that I will since I am no future-seer.
“you attempt to assert they are indifferentiable”
I do not.
“And anyway facts are facts. People do choose friends the way I have said they do.”
Some. I’ve observed differently. We gravitate towards people who are like ourselves.
“It is not a straw man. It is an allegory used to prove that people are in fact different no matter how much you attempt to assert they are indifferentiable,”
Either I didnt express myself well, or you are misunderstanding. I never said that there is no differentiation between people(or even that there arent traits that are particularly part of one gender), and it is not what I meant if you thought so. Obviously people are different. duh. When I say I dont differentiate between genders, I mean that I dont assume they are inferior/superior at anything except when I have observed them. I dont dismiss people based on gender. I dismiss them based on attitude which is really easy to observe. Observation takes no effort. At all. If we talk and we click, then a friend is made. basically no extra effort went into this process because i would have talked to them anyway.
“and that any exception to an explicitly provable set based on those differentiating aspects is not disproving the rule. It was never a rewording of your argument.
You are trying to “prove” that females are inferior as friends or companions. There’s no data set for that. If that’s not what you are trying to prove, then we have wasted our time, because that’s the only reason i have been replying to you. All other mgtow problems, is not something I am interested in discussing at this time.
“To challenge you with the real world fact that solely because of GENDER some people are world famous and well paid for a skill that others, who have proven themselves to be better at that skill, are entirely ignored, because of gender.”
There’s no challenge to be made, because I never refuted or supported this argument. Loaded argument fallacy. This argument can be made for both genders btw. In any case, it was irrelevant because, like I said, I never made any statements regarding it. But you try to tarnish my character by insinuating that I have.
“Men can win the lotto.”
Begging the question or loaded argument fallacy. You are making the conclusion that making friends with women is a lottery. But only you think that way(and maybe others like you).
There’s no lotto to be won, because you dont play the lottery for companions. You meet them at random. You keep assuming that some huge effort goes into getting to know someone. I have never interacted with people that way. I presume others haven’t either. Meeting people is a pretty linear experience. You don’t “hope” to meet a friend. It could be anyone. It could be a person who asks you for the time while you wait for the bus. Maybe you start talking to them and you click. Why is this so hard to understand?
argumentum abusi fallacia
Prove it or stop claiming they are.
Contradiction #1
My high self esteem meets my low self esteem.
” You know… The easiest thing for someone with low self esteem to do, is trying to put someone else down in order to attempt making yourself feel better.”
“Monkey, laughing monkey, Mr monkey, But on the other hand, you probably like flinging poop. That’s what monkeys do :), lame troll.”
“Your comprehension skills are that of a toad. lol.”
“Im happy to see that your logic tells you a number of 12 males is a good sample size 🙂 Perhaps you even have that many brain cells.”
“This is how I keep myself whole.”
“I have quite a high sense of empathy … which results in me identifying with whoever I speak with.”
Mrs Monkey? Is that you throwing poop back?
Contradiction #2
Individuals. Not groups, not genders. Unique.
“That is why people should be judged as human beings and individuals.”
“Oh… I have met lots of men. I can assure you none of them think like you. I cant speak for most men of course.”
“Whether you want to believe it or not. MGTOWS do have a herd mentality… ”
“My point goes for MGTOWs regardless. They are not individualistic. Someone individual would not even think to take on a label like that”
“I Still maintain that people are individuals”
“And MGTOWs actually advocate generalizations.”
So generalizing a group identified by gender, not as individuals unique and special, and condemning said generalized gender group for generalizing… seriously?
I dont have to prove your fallacies. All i need to do is explain why they are fallacies. Now as for your… attempt at character assassination.
I already admitted that I have been antagonistic, so i am not sure why you are just parroting what I said.
You have been taking my comments out of context and even altering them. you sir, are quite skilled at discrediting yourself. Thank you for that btw. I will now show and explain:
“Mrs Monkey? Is that you throwing poop back?”
You don’t quite understand what empathy is. Empathy is not equal to sympathy. I already admitted I have been antagonizing people. Empathy is the ability to build a narrative inside your head that puts you in the shoes of another human being. This skill can be used for both bad and good. In fact, due to my empathic nature, I sometimes emulate people i talk to. which means if they have a bad attitude, mine becomes that if I am not careful.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empathy
Now… For the monkey comment. Please go take one look at the posts I was replying to, and you’ll see why my reply was of this nature. All of his other posts were just filled with “hahaha” and “lol”, giving an image of someone laughing hysterically at everything he typed, and more of the same type of weird assertions about women. Indeed I was flinging poop back. But your quote is out of context. Here is the dude’s original post:
His post was filled with “i-know.you-better-than-you-know-yourself” accusations. In return, I used the same tactic by saying(and this is the full quote):
“You know… The really funny thing is that none of the things you said apply to me. I’m asexual.
But on the other hand, you probably like flinging poop. That’s what monkeys do :)”
In this quote I was illustrating how easy it is to make accusations, such as “you like flinging poop”, which is so obviously not true, and would have no hope in proving that he liked flinging poop, that it makes my point obvious. Or so I hoped. Also it fit the monkey theme. I guess I got a bit stylistic. Anyway I encourage you to go read all his posts… All I saw was someone trying to tear people down and laugh at them.
You quoted me: “Your comprehension skills are that of a toad. lol.”
This was a reply to someone, to whom I had repeatedly explained something yet his reply was:
“Still can’t answer a simple question, eh? I don’t have weights to pull or a car to clean right now but I do have some snatches and asses to fist. Thanks for the advice, and away I go!!!”
Also he said: “Still waiting for 1 thing that men need you for, haven’t gotten an answer yet. Just more bullshit because that’s all you are and all you’ll ever be.”
I’m not quite sure my little retort quite measured up to his.
You quoted: “I’m happy to see that your logic tells you a number of 12 males is a good sample size 🙂 Perhaps you even have that many brain cells.”
I admit, that was a childish insult. I have no excuse for this one. *hides* I thought I was being clever/funny T_T gomen ne!
As for the “mgtows do x” comments. Sometimes I forget to inject “some” or “most” or “less” or “those I have met” .. whatever have you. The difference is that when asking for elaboration.. *some* mgtows will indeed keep their claim stubbornly. I see *lots* of mgtows claiming that “ALL x” are like that without exception. Without giving thought to the fact that in many cases, they are are wrong.
Ask me for elaboration? I’ll apologise for using a sweeping statement and make it clear that I’m only speaking of those who really are like that. I *know* there are men prescribing to mgtow out there who aren’t spiteful, angry or hateful of women. They are simply looking out for themselves and that’s fine.
In fact, I will often start off an argument saying “Some x do y” then continue with “x do y because” without injecting “some” because it’s already been established i am only talking about “some”. If I forgot to do that, then again, I apologise, and I will explicitly announce here that I am I only talking about the loudmouthed mgtows who fit such description 🙂 (there are plenty example of those in this thread alone)… ahem.
I have noticed *some* men get stuck on wordings btw, rather than allowing a fluid conversation. They think that once you said something, and it’s been interpreted in a certain way, it must never change. They also think that one can never learn, grow or change their mind. Please don’t turn out to be this kind of man. Also keep in mind that my first language isn’t english. I continuously refine my points and my point of view. I will admit that in the beginning I saw all mgtows as worse than I do now. I have discussed with plenty to realize that a lot of them are simply concerned and actually good people 🙂 I wish all of those men luck in their journey away from society.
I wont make light of the hardships men face today. Only when I feel they use faulty logic to make all women responsible for their problems.
And there you have answered the question cause marriage = AKA the bond between man and woman/love/trust/loyalty etc is gone!…so why stick around trying to find a parter when the meaning has gone?…answer = go your own way like the only winning move is not to play!
Actually I largely see marriage as either a religious thing or a device used by the government to meddle in people’s lives.
I can see some uses to it like making co-existence easier(hospital visits and such)… but what I really think should happen, is have marriage hold much, much less legal power over people. But this is the problem to begin with, isn’t it?
To me, marriage =/= bond between man and woman.. it’s a contract. You can’t put love in a contract.. to do so is to cheapen the meaning of love.. and freedom.
So to me, the meaning was never gone. Not all relationships are meant to last.. Just like friends grow apart. Removing the ability for people to actively choose to stay together(people might feel obligated and scared by the contract) is less than optimal. Specially today when we really shouldn’t be crowding the world with more babies(no real need for protecting motherhood so vehemently).
When I was little, marriage used to confuse me because I often heard about people hating each other but staying together cos of marriage. I always believed the stigma of divorce should be removed so that people can move on to what or who makes them happy.. Interestingly enough, divorces became more and more frequently and less stigmatized. Everyone seems to freak out over it, but personally I feel its positive. Now, in later years, I found out about the “one person, usually girl, gets half the stuff”…. I find that utterly atrocious… It’s horrible really… If anything, people should make up their own contracts about how stuff will be divided if divorce ever happens. -some- legal contracting probably is necessary, because as you live together, you tend to buy stuff together. But the thing is that it should be consensual and not so black and white as it is today.
As for your last sentence. I have a sort of problem with insinuating that there is a game in the first place. people as individuals just want love, affection and someone to share with. If you meet someone who’s only out for mind games, you should indeed go your own way, because you’ll probably never get to know that person for who they are.
If that’s every single person you ever meet… Well then I really feel for you o.o that’s why I always attest that one should never give more than they can stand to lose. If one continues to give and get nothing in return, one has to be brave enough to cut it off. that way you spend minimal time with people who are bad for you. Plus it’s not fair to people to make them think you’re ok with something you’re not.
In reality, there’s a fine line between putting forth your best parts and being manipulative. I believe in building character as opposed to using cheap tricks that are beneficial in the short term, but long run not sustainable. I think the book “7 habits of highly effective people” explains it really well though, and better than I ever could 🙂 I honestly think that book should be mandatory reading in school :p
I wish culture was about building character and honor rather than everyone out for themselves and getting big results for the least amount of effort.
Anyway I’m just ranting. I’m sorry. half of what I said isn’t even related to your comment :p I guess what I’m saying… love isn’t dead, but you don’t have to seek it out if you don’t want to. And you definitely don’t have to marry. It would probably do the world good to show that relationships can thrive extremely well without marriage and maybe even better.
There’s so much your completely missing the entire point to…and how can you possibly say that things today are better JUST LOOK AROUND AND YOU TELL ME IF ITS CLEARLY BETTER THE WORLD IS IN CHAOS!…ITS BEING EVER SO MUCH HARDER JUST TO LIVE AT THIS POINT ITS MUCH EASYER TO KILL OVER!…how is this POSITIVE!?!?!?…IF I DONT KNOW WHATS POSITIVE THEN FROM WHAT YOU HAVE WROTE YOU AS HELL CANT SURLY KNOW!!!!…and why do you think that splitting up/parting with some/divorce etc is normal/ok/acceptable?!?!…if it was ok then WHY DOES IT HURT!…WHY DOES IT RUIN LIFES!…cause if it didn’t then would we NOT SUFFER?…LIKE WE DO!…CALL THAT POSITIVE YOU MUST MAD!…Marriage is more important than you think and not by society’s view the true meaning of marriage holds more meaning than you think…when you marry someone you are acknowledging and taking accountability that you understand how important love/loyalty/trust/commitment etc is…it is the contract that you are honorbourd too that if you do something wrong
Selfishly that there will be CONSEQUENCES!…Cause other wise would we not do what we do to today which we do that we do not take accountability for our actions and it’s not hard to see that out in the world in what way do you think that’s POSITIVE!…A husband and wife not one but both work together as a team regardless of what happens even through bad times how is anything to work when you don’t try to make it work intead you say walk away basically that is what a COWARD DOES!…Real people stick together through thick and thin when there honourable people they don’t QUIT…PLUS…its healther for children when they have two loving parents that stick together and workout there differences…the child learns and has good understanding to know what love is what trust is what loyalty is what commitment is…sees/understands what man is sees/understands what woman is so when that child grows into adulthood he/she will understand when it comes to find there own love life and will know that working together is important to make something ever lasting work!…THAT IS POSITIVE!…AGAIN I TELL YOU TO LOOK AROUND OUTSIDE INTO THE WORLD AND IF YOU THINK THATS POSITIVE THEN YOU CLEARLY DONT UNDERSTAND LIFE!!!!…with what you’ve said in your comment you don’t HALF MAKE and INSULT HUMAN BEINGS AS BEING PATHETICALLY WEAK NOT ONLY THAT BUT YOUR WORDS!?!?….I may not know the meaning of life but with what you’ve said you are PRACTICALLY TAKING THAT MEANING AND QUESTION AWAY!…ohh and save your PITY for someone else cause I don’t need it!
“and how can you possibly say that things today are better ”
I skimmed over my reply again, and I don’t believe I said that.
Anyway, I feel it’s dangerous to get stuck in tradition. Could you please tell me why marriage is important when we don’t need to put more chidren in the world? I might be missing it since I’m an introvert, rather asexual and also a nihilist. I don’t think any truth counts as objective.
Anyway divorce ruins lives because marriage is set up in such a way that, legally speaking, one can ruin another’s life. This IS what a lot of mgtows are protesting, right?
As for why it hurts. When you fall in love with someone you produce all types of chemicals like oxytocins, dopamine, what have you… It creates a sort of addiction to the person which results in affection and trust. When that thing is removed, your brain freaks out. Love is not for the weak or those looking to it as an escape from a problem in their life. When deciding to become serious with someone, you pretty much agree to risking heartache should things not work out. If that risk is too much for you, there’s mgtow to embrace you o.o
You may not have said things are better today but you IMPLIED IT!…you implied SOMETHING IS BETTER WHEN ITS CLEARLY NOT!…and the world is proof enough…and you feel tradition is dangerous…well tell me what the world revolves around cause I don’t really see any tradition influencing it tell me why life was better seemed a lot easier years ago like (example) my grandparents time…life was certainly more positive than it is today money was easier to come by and jobs were too…you learnt something and you made a living from it…so no shitty jobcenters or places helping you look for jobs cause they weren’t needed my grandad and grandma stuck together to the end and they both were very happy with there lives cause they were brought up with the knowledge that kept them together my grandad was happy working/being the provider and was happy to give my grandma the money after hard days work because that is love and my grandma was very happy to work at home cook/clean and look after her children…that is a positive life style tell me why you think that is a bad thing…you think broken family’s/single parents/bad tempered children growing up and repeating the same lives as the parents who didn’t bring them up properly which seems to go on and on and on again people who were not brought up in the right environment with the right knowledge with a good mother and father = selfish people/people who don’t understand life people who don’t care about children/people who don’t put enough effort to get somewhere/people that don’t understand emotions and yourselves!…MGTOWs protest cause there pointing out BAD/EVIL/ELOGICAL BEHAVIOUR!..cause they see what is WRONG/INJUSTICE/LIES…and don’t give me that rubbish about science and chemicals in the brain yes science can read what a brain does but it can’t answer everything like can it explain the LIFE FORCE BEHIND OUR BODY WHY WE ARE ALIVE?!?!…I don’t think so!…and then you say if you can’t risk heartache go MGTOW!?!?…HERE YOU ARE ON THIS SITE COMPLAINING IN SOME WAY…YOU JUST CONTRADICTED YOURSELF!…and why again do I need to explain the importance of marriage again to you I don’t know how much more clearly to be other than it makes life better if your doing it right and if you still don’t understand then you are a Blind human being sorry…plus if don’t understand then leave this site cause there is no convincing you…cause you don’t want to see and your waisting your time being here!
Dear vader,
))
The world at large doesn’t prove anything about marriage 🙂 I only commented on it being better that marriage and divorce isn’t so bound by tradition anymore. I didnt make any statement about the world at large.
Plus, not everything was better. It also depends on what part of the world you talk about. For example, it used to be normal -tradition- that people work 16+ hours a day, wasting away their life for low paying jobs making others rich, then getting laid off in mass firings.(Try listening to the song “The Circus” by erasure… Its kinda cool https://youtu.be/8U2lpnwa1ow).
Things are not perfect now though. They never were. The world is chaos… You are right about that.But marriage is just one cog in the whole system… and right now its tainted by bureaucracy and traps.
Anyway humanity either matures or it crumbles like so many other civilizations. But I hope we will mature as human beings… And stop acting like we’re all alone.
“my grandad was happy working/being the provider and was happy to give my grandma the money after hard days work because that is love and my grandma was very happy to work at home cook/clean and look after her children.”
A lot of your mgtow brethren would probably take issue with this. But I love this kind of dedication. True love… o_o Your grandparents are goals… If nothing else, then just the sheer dedication.
“that is a positive life style tell me why you think that is a bad thing…”
Personally I do not feel its a bad thing. If it makes the people included feel happy, it should never be discouraged or made fun of(like some people do) … when did I ever give you the impression that I thought it was bad? Please don’t use strawmen o.o ….
“and don’t give me that rubbish about science and chemicals in the brain yes science can read what a brain does but it can’t answer everything like can it explain the LIFE FORCE BEHIND OUR BODY WHY WE ARE ALIVE?!?!”
I…. i was just explaining why we hurt when we break up ._. sorry…. You asked though… Oh! it probably has something to do with evolution too.
Ahh as for the life force 🙂 That’s actually a far more interesting question… One that many scientists try to answer.. I have seen/heard people postulate that we are made of sound or… frequencies…Or that it somehow had a play in sparking life… that it’s what keeps us moving.. I dunno… But it really fascinates me. Wait! I wanna show you a cool video. Sound is some pretty damn interesting stuff:
And here(i skipped to the part i found the most interesting):
“HERE YOU ARE ON THIS SITE COMPLAINING IN SOME WAY…YOU JUST CONTRADICTED YOURSELF!”
Um… How exactly did I contradict myself? o.o … I never protested against the existence of mgtow or men going their own way. If I do have a protest, then its against generalization and specifically demonizing half of humanity ^^ Something I thought only feminists do. But that’s beside the point. Mgtow doesn’t really interest me that much anymore. I was curious about it for a while. I only come here whenever people reply to my initial posts.
“and why again do I need to explain the importance of marriage again to you I don’t know how much more clearly to be other than it makes life better if your doing it right and if you still don’t understand then you are a Blind human being sorry”
I was asking why its important when putting lots of children in the world really isn’t that good of an idea why anymore.
But! anyway. What’s right for you isn’t right for everyone. I think people should be free to choose. I think they shouldn’t be forced to be with someone who turned out not to be right for them. I think people SHOULD give relationships their best of course… But it breaks my heart when I see people stuck in relationships that eat up their soul and enthusiasm… Trust me.. there’s lots of such people 🙁 I want people to be happy. that’s all. I just have a different idea about how that’s achieved than yours. I’m not trying to condemn your ideals.
“plus if don’t understand then leave this site cause there is no convincing you…cause you don’t want to see and your waisting your time being here!”
Eh… Everything i do can be seen as waste of time. In the end, what do you really fight/live for? Is it a pre-determined path for you? Do you believe in fate? In a greater meaning? I don’t believe in religion, and I know far too little to even be close to knowing what the meaning of life is. When you think about these things too much…you risk becoming a nihilist o_o ….. the answer really is… you make your own life. You find out what you are passionate about and what makes you happy and you pursue it. Don’t let people dictate how your life should be.
But you replied to me.. It would be rude of me to ignore you 🙂 If you wish to end this conversation, then simply don’t reply.
Your entire concept of life makes life itself POINTLESS also what is the point of HUMAN BEINGS?…evolution itself is ELOGICAL because it can’t answer the meaning of LIFE!…it cannot explain human NATURE and many other things like why does a spider make its web without even knowing how to make one how does it know how to make it the beautiful work of art that it is?…Tell me what is the core behind why you live your life…cause it sounds like you live for the sake of it…there doesn’t seem to be any meaning behind you Nihilist?…your whole life as a Nihilist is inconsequential…I’m Interested to wonder what you…FEAR!…what you would cling to for dear life…could you clearly confront the thought of your own mortality!…as a Nihilist do you believe the world is gonna improve?!?!…suppose or what if your WRONG!…what if your concept and understanding of life is WRONG!…what
then?…clearly if there is no meaning behind human beings then why do they exsist…I want to know your answer?
Winning is not a quantitative concept for MGTOW. Winning can happen with very low numbers. It is a concept, not a numbers game. Numbers do not apply. However, enough men will be MGTOW ( even if they have never heard of the concept specifically) eventually that the impact will be felt quantitatively in the near future. It is via this process that MGTOW is not “losers”, not in the way it will drive women to try and understand men so the women involved can see their selfishness probably for the first time.
Have you considered that women will try to understand men regardless of you guys’ existence? Certainly Id try to understand men that were less hateful. Mgtow wasn’t my catalyst. If anything, it made me more suspicious of men.
Anyway, the women who understand men will likely go for the ones who werent hateful/spiteful or wished women ill or lost hope in them… I’m not saying that you specifically are like this as I dont know you. But lots of spiteful mgtow seem to think that they will be first in line.
It’s not even because of revenge…. but being with someone who constantly measures you up against some ideal is exhausting… Its like a beacon that constantly goes “Is she an awalt?” going off every second… It is tiring to be around such a person..
But I do hope you succeed in influencing humanity towards a better place 🙂
“Your entire concept of life makes life itself POINTLESS also what is the point of HUMAN BEINGS?”
Indeed. That is the question a nihilist asked themselves and found out the answer is so complex that the chances of a simple answer is … unlikely to be found. Bottom line, I dont believe in objective truth… but that includes the possibility that there might be one.
“.evolution itself is ELOGICAL because it can’t answer the meaning of LIFE!…it cannot explain human NATURE and many other things like why does a spider make its web without even knowing how to make one how does it know how to make it the beautiful work of art that it is?”
By “elogical” i am assuming you mean illogical 🙂 I do not find evolution illogical at all. There’s evidence and explanations for it. But of course, you cant use evolution to explain why we have feelings… Or why we find art beautiful. But when a spider makes a web, it is likely not aware that it is making art. It’s a bit like how we’re hardwired to see faces in things that arent humans. Like those cute houses! Anyway, we look at a spiderweb and think “wow”…But to the spider it is really it’s most optimal way to make a net that catches prey. It is very subjective what we call art. other people look at spiderweb and panic because it induces fear. So who’s right? the person who fears it or the person who admires it?
Everything we experience is subjective in life…. even pain. Pain isnt something that’s applied to us. It’s a response that our brain induces into ourselves. It can even be removed by using hypnosis. Now imagine how a person incapable of pain might experience the world.
So of course evolution can’t explain human nature.. That would require us to track every single genetic mutation that happened over time… But we have some theories in place like humans forming longlasting relationships so that offspring are more like to survive. But ask yourself… if things had gone differently… if we never had the need to walk on two legs… What would we have looked like today? Would we still be humans? That brings me on to the next point:
“Tell me what is the core behind why you live your life…cause it sounds like you live for the sake of it…there doesn’t seem to be any meaning behind you Nihilist?…your whole life as a Nihilist is inconsequential…I’m Interested to wonder what you…FEAR!”
You pretty much nailed the core of the problem a nihilist faces. Our human traits seem like an arbitrary element of evolution. For example… Look at spiders. The female willrip off the male’s head and eat it. This seems so cruel. But it is simple doing what its programmed to by it’s instincts. The concept of “cruelty” doesn’t even exist in spiders probably… Maybe the male even enjoys being eaten. Which means that the concepts of cruelty is a response that humans have in order to be repulsed by things that seem harmful to the continuation of our species; Torturing another human cant be healthy and might start fights/wars resulting in people dying.
That is what scares me. The thought and conviction that our responses, emotions and values are merely arbitrary. That we aren’t even our own people. That our emotions are programmed into us and it’s somehow fake. That free will is an illusion… Like people in a videogame.
Being a nihilist is not fun, trust me. And I wish I could go back to when this part wasn’t in my mind. But I also can’t unsee it. Morals, rules, beheavior, experiences… It’s all subjective. I am not religious, so I don’t believe in some code of morals imposed on us from a book. How do you know what morals are better anyway? Some people condemn sodomy. Others condemn eating a certain type of meat. Some even condemn using certain words because it might hurt people. When it comes to scientific studies, progress would be thwarted by religion.
No one knows where to draw the line. So a nihilist will somehow have to assess what kind of moral code they want to live by. For non-nihilists it’s easy…. they already chose subconsciously by whatever element influenced them to choose. Like religion. Or their parents. Or a random thought that sparked and stuck. But as for me… I think because we cant tell what is morally sound, we should allow for as much freedom as possible. Equal opportunity. The freedom to be an asshole and the freedom to shun assholes. The freedom to pursue activities with consenting people that others might object to. Even if it seems insane to you.
As for meaning of life… Again… it’s what you make of it. I believe everyone should be happy. Or have the opportunity to be happy and thrive.But that’s how I personally feel. I want to push the world in the direction that I want to see the world in. That’s what everyone does. Feminists work towards a world where they have power over men. Religious people work towards a world where everyone obeys and fears god. Socialists work towards a work where people share. Animals lovers towards a world where animals are treated well. Mgtow…. well… i honestly don’t really understand what mgtow work towards. it seems to differ per person…
I work towards a world of equal opportunity. Of respect for personal choice and responsibility. I am hoping others are too… Otherwise it indicates that my morals are so divergent from the mainstream that It will never happen. In a sense if that’s true, then my morals are wrong. Because they are only right for me. But I don’t believe this. I think a good foundation of freedom and opportunity will benefit everyone.
“what you would cling to for dear life…could you clearly confront the thought of your own mortality!…”
I think Love is my beacon(yes I know you mgtows roll your eyes at that… sue me -.-). For someone. or some thing.
I feel love is the glue that holds humanity together. Love makes things special. Love is what I live for. I have an extremely submissive personality. I am loyal to whoever wins my trust and love… To a fault even. I will stick it out with someone even beyond what is healthy for me. I am not perfect. I am human after all. Same goes for my love of my passions and hobbies. They keep me going. Even though they are subjective things and in the grand scheme of things seem pointless…. They still mean something to me. I am given a vessel with emotions. I can either work against them or with them.
The second thing that gives me hope is…. science actually… And quantum mechanics… Stuff like that. That part of physics is unpredictable. My line of thought is… If something as objective as physics can be unpredictable… Then maybe us humans aren’t so unpredictable either. Maybe Animals have free will after all.
As for mortality. I do not fear death. I have been in situations where I could die,but what I was really scared of was the pain. Not the thing that came after. I don’t believe heaven/hell is even remotely plausible. If it’s thought up by a human, it likely wont happen 😉
That doesn’t mean Im not spiritual. I have experienced and seen things that… suggest there is more to the human mind and existence than what we think. Anyway death has 2 possibilities: There is something or there is nothing. If there is nothing, I have nothing to worry about. my thoughts will be gone. If there is something…. it is probably something no one even was remotely close to figuring out. If there is something then I will take it when it comes. But I cant operate based on the belief in something specific, because the possibilities are endless. So I operate based on this life that I have right now.
“.suppose or what if your WRONG!…what if your concept and understanding of life is WRONG!…what then?”
That is the thing. I might be wrong. I am probably wrong about a lot of things. But who’s right? How can we prove who’s right? Since I cant answer this, I think its best to allow as much freedom of thought and choice as possible.
“clearly if there is no meaning behind human beings then why do they exsist…I want to know your answer?”
I wish to know this answer too ._. But people say we are made of stardust…. That sort of comforting.
Nihilism is lonely….. Sometimes everything gets too meta…. and things do seem pointless. x_x I certainly dont recommend it. It’s like staring into a void and seeing nothing.
I hunt for meaning just like everyone else…. But it always goes back to the knowledge that meaning is subjective.
Your a very interesting person 🙂 haven’t met many of you!…wanted to…thought one time you had the answer…but your all the same Madness!…obsessed!…you can’t be a Nihilist…because you believe in love there for you have a meaning!…where as a Nihilist has no meaning…you talk that it’s ok to be an asshole as if you want to be yet doesn’t that create a negative reaction surely if you are kind/honest/truthful/friendly/polite and help others then surely you be met with a positive reaction…a Nihilist is selfish cause he/she seeks nether only what they desire…plus if I died tomorrow I’d want to be remembered as a good honest person who did his best for himself as well as helping others doing something noble with my life again a Nihilist doesn’t sound like someone is want to remember…wanna know something I went through life with no meaning and I would of died but I found a meaning that is why I am here today…I strive to help others…save them if I can…my will is love/truth to prove there is a greater meaning to life and even as a man who has never met miss right and had children I hold on to that idea/fantasy/concept and it’s enough for me that it completes me even if I will never have that in reality…I’ve been through what people would call hell like you…we have both looked into the void or abyss!…but when IT!…looked back at US!….YOU BLINKED!…still I have some respect for you! 🙂
Allies. When a man has a problem he can’t overcome on his own, an ally can be an invaluable asset. Especially when it comes to war, where an ally will even the odds against potentially many foes.
Yep. And plenty of men are allies. Plenty arent.
So do Feminists. In fact, women are being made to account for their actions, contrary to the female supremacy in accordance with modern Feminists’ will.
As he said, we’re saving our money for ourselves and people worthwhile, as well as exposing princesses and warning other men about who said princesses are.
Z once came directly after F, and so, depending on system, the lowest grade would be either H, or X.
The only men with poor self esteem, chase women constantly, and tell women how superior they are to all men. Nothing they say is true. Men are superior to women, physically, mentally, and economically, albeit all on average, and always have been. Modern Feminists are doing a good job at making all those masculine superiorities ironically absolute.
Okidoki
Lol
I’ve gotten laid so many times after I became mgtow and this is 2014-2015 I fucked a whole lot because of my attitude. First women bitch and shame thirsty guys now MGTOW comes along oh now you need the thirsty guys back?
You made me laugh my ass off!
You pushed your fair share of degrading comments, so please fuck off!
You claim to be asexual, yet you criticise men who turn away from the opposite sex? Fuck you and your self-righteousness!
Dates don’t interest you. But if a man loses interest in dating, then he must be a worthless loser and an illiterate monkey. You are full of shit.
You are a sad hurtful being.
You certainly aren’t fixing any problems. Why not look after the major fuckup?
“What you get in life is not what you want, but who you are.” Go and tell that to hungry children and rape victims. I’m sure, after rigorous self-examination they will understand how they suffer for who they are.
You are hateful and spiteful yourself, as it is.
Really? Ever heard of responding in kind? 🙂 plus you can’t tell me what to do. You guy supremacists haven’t taken over yet, so I think I’ll litter my femaleness all over the place for a little while longer :3
You hypocritical asshole have been spitting your hateful remarks all over this thread, explaining how it’s all MGTOW’s own fault for “always picking the wrong women”, and telling them what to do and how to think.
It’s neither femaleness nor are those any kind of humanistic / intellectual pieces of wisdom you’re littering all over the place. It’s your own hateful, intolerant, narcissistic, shortsighted, dumb fascism. So, if you want to, just carry on with your shit, but don’t expect kinder responses. Fuck you.
How is telling people that pick the wrong people hateful? You have not seen real hate, have you? In fact the spite and vitriol on your post exude more hatred than I ever have. How is wishing that all women suffer not hateful? Because this is what it is about for some of you, isn’t it? You can deny it all you want, but a lot of you had some shitty encounters with shitty women and now some of you want all women to suffer. To be kept out, right? Tell me I’m wrong and I’m not talking about you specifically, which is why I say “some”. I know some dudes just genuinely want to be left alone by women but aren’t going to create campaigns about how all of them are terrible and should be expelled from society. And I am not going to bother those dudes because whether you want to talk to certain people or not is a choice everyone has the right to make.
And please spare me your armchair psychotherapy analysis about narcissism and what not. We are foes on this discussion so of course we are going to see the worst in each other, it’s just a little weak that you give In to that pleasure of making baseless accusations about someone just because they dare protest to a line of thinking that they find illogical and stupid. I’m not calling you stupid, am I? But I’m allowed to disagree and provide a dissenting voice. You might not take it to heart and frankly I don’t care if you do, but others will.
Anyway I’m sure you’ll go on with your character assassination attempt 🙂 please go on.
Can you make up your mind, you schizophrenic feminazi? If you criticise a whole movement because of “some guys” with a misconceived idea about it, don’t expect anything but a “fuck you” from the rest. The sick shits and con artists who lead the feminazi movement also call themselves “women’s rights acivists”, that doesn’t mean everyone who sees themselves as feminists is a feminazi. But you do indeed have proven yourself to be the latter. It’s not hateful when you say it. It’s not armchair psychology when you practice it. Your statements aren’t influenced by personal experience, you speak the unbiased objective truth. And MGTOW are per definition unable to do so, right? That makes your standpoint a fascistic one.
I never said that my point of view isnt influenced by personal experience. But in the end, everything is, no? 🙂 Im simply trying to remind people that there is indeed difference in perceptions based on personal experience. Which means its silly to take anyone serious when they say “all x are y”. Its a logical fallacy that people use here willingly, even though it’s more or less universally accepted, in debates, that using logical fallacies is… to put it mildly.. pretty dumb.
Now as for mgtows, I try to be careful not to put you all in the same boat. Sometimes i slip up and accidentally generalize. But the difference here is that when Im called out on it, I own up to it(or try… admittedly my troll sometimes comes out.. sorry!). Many people dont own up though.
I dont mean to generalize. I just hate when people blame all problems on others without ever accepting responsibility for themselves.
Also how did I prove myself to be a feminist? Im curious now genuinely o.o. I consider myself an anti-feminist because i like patriarchy! im kidding about the patriarchy. But i certainly didnt mean to spout feminist ideology by any means 🙂
Again, you implicate MGTOW is about blaming others, while you’re blaming MGTOW. That’s feminazi, not feminist. Going their own way means quitting the blame game and quitting attempts to fix what is broken. So if you suggest otherwise, you’re not only forcing me to participate in something I don’t want anymore, you’re also indicating that I am to blame for whatever is broken. And you don’t go after the patriarchy, you don’t go after the feminazis, you don’t go after anyone with an agenda, honest or otherwise, you go after those who declared they have enough and don’t want to participate anymore. And that is just fucked up.
Its one thing to say “I have had enough of this group of people, Im going my way.” and its another to say “I have had enough of this, i am now going to do my best to hurt the entire group by spreading fallacies and trying to encourage others to judge that entire group without any reason”.
It is the latter I have a problem with. And I do in fact go after feminazis 🙂 On other discussions I call out girls for being idiots and blaming guys for shit.
Sometimes I dont convey myself in the best ways, but that really is the core of the matter for me.
Why are you trying so hard to mix those statements, then? Why am I or others responsible for idiots who can’t comprehend more than “good” and “evil” bullshit?
Well sometimes i make generalising statements in response to other generalising statements… And sometimes I make exaggerated statements that demonstrate how annoying it is… But usually it is in response to someone who said something illogical. Also keep I mind that I’ve pretty much participated in this discussion since I learned about it from day on till now. So my views and attitude is bound to change. At one point I did pretty much see all mgtow as the latter type I mentioned before, but since then learned that some of you really just want a nice drama free life and that’s fine 🙂 of course you don’t need my approval for it. I mean I’m just some random girl who likes learning about these things and I’m curious about people behave and think like they do.
I certainly don’t mean to make all mgtows responsible for the idiots. I try to only call out the ones that try to make all women responsible for the stupid ones they came across. It’s a weird thing to be told that you’re born evil… So naturally I’m curious.
Well, if you want to stay constructive you will have to differentiate. You also have to consider that most MGTOW who strive towards a relative drama-free existence probably wouldn’t bother anymore to take a stand in a discussion like this, so most “MGTOW” who care to express themselves end up being bigots. MGTOW is their cloak and dagger, just as the women’s rights movement is for feminazis. And exactly that interactive conflicts theater is what holds us back and will end us as a species.
Maybe you’re right 🙂 but I have a feeling that things eventually will find a balance.. they always do. Even if humanity ends, nature will go on. But I doubt it. There will always be that male or female that craves love. And if MGTOWs truly keep away from women and dont get babies, they pretty much just remove themselves from the genepool, thus leaving the less reluctant and more compliant males to have babies… ._. which I fear might result in female domination even more. Unless those fake wombs become a thing! Then I guess people can just pick and choose.
I have to disagree with your feeling, since human society is becoming less and less stable. Maybe some of us survive for another 150 years, but then it’s over, and until then it won’t get any prettier either. We missed the ideal window of opportunity to create a different world, a better world for all mankind. Even now, when it’s about sheer survival of the species, not only we keep on doing the same shit that brought us here, but we’re still making things worse. Parents-to-be, if they have the means, can already pick and choose.
That sounds like a lot of these guys who say that they’re PUAs. Even real PUAs are pussy-panderers; most of the people posting here are not. A lot of these guys are full of shit, especially the ones who talk about having lots of money and game.
yesss mgtow
yeah you 100% right thoses losers spend money on pussy, and then that women tell them, im not into you hahahahahahahahahahhaha, so no only did they spend their money in vain, but now they alone, and back into the same circle of looking hahahahahha i pity thoses blue pill for real, me as a a red pill man, do the same thing as you, i fuck women on my term, and if they start acting like princesses, i tell them bye lol, thats the differences between theses blue pills manginas and us, that we got the power,
Yeah, and the only reason it’d be a passing fad, is because Feminism is a passing fad!
“and the validation that so many depraved women today seek will not come from me. If ALL men suddenly did this tomorrow… women would change overnight.”
Insightful point. If only this happened…
Very well said.
Well put, sir.
Feminists give up on men in much the same way, and believe in female supremacy, which they are trying ruthleßly to attain. In fact, while MGTOW men don’t want to be with women, that author man of this article, should also be addreßing Feminists who do not want to be with men by virtue of their own adherence to Feminism. They are the real problem. MGTOW and Feminists are mortal enemies of each other.
hmmm.. let me twist this around a bit. Feminist have a cause and a herd mentality. MGTOWs are individualistic, and don’t care about any cause. They’re actually more evasive than anything else in between. Opposite but not quite…
Agreed. If anything the fractured lack of any herd works against us. Still… I’ve had enough… I’ve fought the good fight and paid plenty for it. For now… I’m going my own way.
Whether you want to believe it or not. MGTOWS do have a herd mentality… Otherwise you wouldn’t keep backing each other up, no matter how untrue and stupid the words coming out of a mgtow-mouth are.
Fyi, I’m not a mgtow.
My point goes for MGTOWs regardless. They are not individualistic. Someone individual would not even think to take on a label like that.
Not all of them but maybe the ones the author is talking about. To me MGTOW does not necessarily mean avoiding contact with women. It means doing things my own way and living my life rather than doing something so I can get laid.
And you are generalizing.
You are full of shit.
Anyone who has an agenda for me or wants ME to provide resources for THEM that are contrary to the interests of me and my children is my mortal enemy. Feminists were my enemy before I was MGTOW because they’re an anti-male hate movement hellbent on female supremacy. Since becoming MGTOW, my list of opponents has simply grown in size and scope.
Are you a tongue twister? Are you Peter Piper’s brother or sister? Your name sounds like you are a tongue-twisting shadow.
“If it’s being perverted that’s a sad thing… because no it shouldn’t be an excuse for being a loser.”
————————-
But what’s a loser?
Objectively, what difference does it make if you fuck females on birth control or jerk off to porn all the time?
Either way no kids = no genetic legacy.
Huh…interesting point.
Do you propose that someone who has sex only once in his life, even with a really ugly lady, is not a loser if it spawns a child that he can then raise?
Thats exactly what MGTOW IS – i dont know what the hell this article is. I think that Game and PUA have more in common with lonley looser virgin types than MGTOW.
“It means “frankly my dear… I don’t give a damn”
This is ABSOLUTELY the best negotiation attitude one should have. It goes back to one of the rollo’s iron rules: whoever needs the other person the least has the upper hand.
This also applies in ANY other kind of negotiation, period.
Hey coach… Think you’ll like this mgtow video http://youtu.be/1eCX2bKH7S8
Had me laughing in agreement. It’s not about not being able to get any, it’s that its too damn easy to get some. Thinking back to last year, I was pounding a girl in the ass, 19 years younger, calling me Daddy. And she was married, with permission. Back at the turn of the century living in LA, I had a world map in my office, marking off each country as I nailed a new nationality. MGTOW is not about not being able to get laid.
No.. Mig-tau is about disliking something, and then claiming that because you dislike it, it’s the thing’s fault and not your own. Beyond that, you then go around bashing people for liking something you dont.
“I cant believe you like the Beatles. You must be a loser”… *roll eye*
That is what you are doing.
Why are you explain yourself. If you think it’s right choice why are you looking for approbation?
Taking the red pill or going your own way doesn’t always necessarily mean giving up on women. The world is filled with falsehoods that people accept as truth. I’d always suspected that something was wrong and the more I investigated, the more I realized that what we think of as reality is actually staged to keep us from finding out what’s really going on. That’s true about more than politics and feminism. It’s the case in the entire world.
being against feminism is fine. But a lot of MGTOWs blame their problems on gender entirely which is insane… Then they put their fingers in their ears and go “lalala youre lying” when they realize some people DO have it good and were successful in the very action they failed at.
Agreed. Red pill rage can make some people rather obstinate. I was for a while but now it’s beginning to subside. I’m still as cautious as a mouse at a cat show but I’m willing to admit my own errors.
The sad fact is that we -have- to be cautious about ever person we let into our lives. I have come across moocher-guys, catty females who were a danger to me, guys who wanted to just take sexually advantage of people, girls who wanted the same…. In fact I can’t say that I’ve met more good people on either side of genders. It’s the same for any group you join.
I once joined an anime-fanclub. But i was still incompatible with most people there(but everyone was nice).
I thought going to university, i’d be surrounded by people who really cared and were passionate about learning. being smart and logical…. But the majority of guys and girls just wanted to party and drink which is not my thing.
But it has helped me see that most people are self-centered. And I mean, that makes sense, because the only way we can experience the world, is through our own senses and brain. In fact, you can never prove what you are experiencing isn’t just a hallucination(however that’s a very philosophical topic).
It’s very freeing though, because I take personal responsibility for everything that happens to me. It just sucks that feminists try to take that away from me, and now random guys too.
Sorry bout the rant ^^
You simply have no idea what you’re talking about, yet you desperately try to convince everyone of your authority on the matter.
Wow, that’s rich. You complain about most people being asshats, yet you wouldn’t grant the same right to anyone!
women all protected from both women and males(instinct), but males will help each others only if they shared something in team like projects, now you can see the female identity in a women because she gives birth, but we men don’t have that kind of biological identity, we have to work to get an identity, but works are taken by females.
a new study said that when a female is present in all places where men are, they will not adapted because they can’t do any “manhood act” which will lead to depression and suicide, in a world where feminazi made being a man a shameless thing.
this is why they drop out from universities, we males designed this society because we thought there will be only males in the workplaces (now most unemployed are males)
fct is : males will be 0% in universities in 2068 if the decrease will continue.
75% of suicides are males especially after the divorce, banning from seeing his own children even when he pays almoney (12.000 suicides/year are men)
95% of work death
65% of homeless (mostly kicking out after the divorce)
single women earn 105% of what a man earn (yet they still expect you to buy a diamond ring therefore have problems later and get divorced and the oppression circle begin again)
WAKE UP men, especially the young ones, never say i have a girlfriend that loves me – BULLSHIT cause all males that jumped the bridge said that too
So what do you propose? That females stop working and live on the streets? Go back to the days when women were only allowed certain jobs? Having man-only and female-only workplaces?
Fuck off.
What you’re saying(with a hint of too much “its womens fault”) is that you stopped being ridiculous and took responsibility for your own actions. Which all women and men should do in the first place?
Its not womens fault that men think its appropriate to blame women for their lack of self control of their dick. That is such a nasty philosphy to have. So congrats. You made a big deal out of learning how to take responsibility for yourself.
OK guys… who let the snotty brat in?
Smelly-pants!
And where the hell are our sammiches?
Solopsistic arrogant comment from a typical female. Stock up on dildos, you will need them when your wall hits.
🙁 wow. You really want people to suffer don’t you? All that anger and suppressed insecurity spilling out of your ears, mouth and nostrils. It’s OK. I forgive you.
As much as you continue to distract and twist the narrative of this discussion, the fact remains that you are as solopsistic and arrogant as any female. Admitting you are a morally bereft and a wallet seeking manipulator, is the last thing you or any woman will ever do, but all men know this by the time they have reached 40.
The way you attempt to absolve women of their own responsibility and guilt by saying they can be as dishonest and manipulative as they like, and it is ok because men are influenced by their sex urges, is disgusting to say the least. It is well known how women play games to get what they want , and how they exit marriages when their infantile whims are not catered to anymore, or the man’s assets and money are bled dry.
Its time you and your kind accepted that the jig is up, and women arent getting away with it any more, thanks to the power of social media nd the internet. Most of you wont ever be snaring a man, because most are you are fat, and the remaining 20% have been riding the cock carousel with alpha thugs so long you are “used” goods. No doubt you’ve seen all those article about women who’ve hit the wall whining about how they are invisible to men. There is the pudding (lol pun intended), and the proof.
Women have changed, and so have men. Get used to it, and the boxed wine, cats, dildos etc. We are quite used to our Xboxes, video games, motorbikes, sex tours to Asia, etc. Its all so good now being woman and child free. Thank you for being obnoxious twunts!
OK OK. You’re right. The jig is up and now we shall remove ourselves from society to live in caves and let you bask in schadenfreude. Because I’ve never seen a happy woman over the age of 30. I’ll spread the word and tell all women to cower in fear. I hope this makes you feel better 🙂 I mean it is my personal fault that other women have been shitty to some guys, so of course I should suffer for it. You’re so right and I cannot believe I didn’t realise it til now. Damn.
See, now you’re just behaving churlishly. If you really were one of the few decent women, men would find you and you wouldnt even care about this forum. But since you’re single……ahem. Also, no one is implying you have to go back to caves, or be unhappy. That is exactly yours to own, if you want. The jig, as you still fail to understand , is that the notion of the white knight sweeping you off your feet and rescuing you by marrying you and allowing you unfettered access to his resources, and childrten witht he white picket fence, has had its day, and wont be largely happening anymore. Women want to look, talk, fight , tatt up, and swear like men, so enjoy your new found “empowerment” with our MGTOW blessing. You are now fully responsible for your own happiness. Just dont factor men into your lives anymore ok apart from the odd one niter, because thats all we want. You are so strong, and dildos are cheap, so whats the problem? Men owe women nothing, and vice versa. I dont see a problem, do you? Enjoy. Im off to Thailand for my next sex tour – cant wait. Meanwhile, back at the ranch….http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3283704/The-women-haven-t-sex-decade-s-like-celibate-s-men-s-fault.html#comments
uh. Im not single :-/ And I dont wanna get married. Lol you really love that schadenfreude feeling though, huh? Like i can tell that you really really want women to feel bad about themselves. 🙂 well whatever rocks your boat!
Btw I comment on this article because it amuses me, and because people keep responding to my old posts. Not that you’d care for any insight on why a female might choose to comment on an article such as this. But ah. Humans have a curious nature so why not 🙂 I’ll come cry on your shoulder once im 30 and have too many dildoes! and cats. Although I think I’ll take the xbox instead. I prefer gaming.
Oh you’re in your 20s…you’re still too young to understand the whole thing really but of course you’re welcome to make objective comments, but not comments like you’ve made above claiming men are fools for taking up with women driven by sexual urges and then getting shafted by them – that is a disgusting attitude.
Your comment about “women feeling bad about themselves”, shows your victim mentality and sense of entitlement. I say again, men owe women nothing, certainly not chivalry or praise. And women seem to be doing an excellent job all on their own felling bad about themselves. LOL
Stop playing the victim. You women all claim to be empowered, about time you owned that instead of chanting it as a meaningless mantra.
Yes, I love schadenboner, because 3rd wave feminists are so deserving of it. Its like watching a loud mouthed bully finally get a beating after years of tormenting others. I dont see anything wrong with gloating like that – justice is served.
So. Just out of curiosity. How did you conclude, that just because you’re being called out on your “schadenboner”, one is having a victim mentality? I know you think you’re being all analytical and stuff, and trying to sound yourself smart. But really you’re just one of those dudes who try to twist everything people say on this article to fit your box of what you want them to be. I would never dream of doing armchair psychology analysis on people, when all I know about them is how they react on a crappy article about mgtow XD. For example, even though you’re behaving on this article in a way that I deem rather illogical and and desperate to see people cower, I am not going to start making guesses on how you are irl or whether you have a victim mentality. I’m sure that beyond that desire for others to suffer, there’s probably an OK person 🙂 however I do not agree that finding it strange that you want t see people suffer and hope to cause it, makes one a person with victim mentally. But to each their own and all that!
And just to note, I’m an anti feminist lol. No I’m not claiming to be “nawalt” or whatever but already have you made so many errors in your analysis. But I do appreciate you taking your precious time to help me 🙂
Ive already explained all the answers to your questions. As have others. Please go and re read the entire thread.
Your victim mentality comes from the way you try to blame men for withdrawing from women – as though the reason they withdraw is their own doing, their own mistake. Refer your “their lack of self control of their dick” comment. You are wrong. Men are withdrawing because of the chameleon qualities of women, and rather than explain it to you, here is an example for you.
http://www.catersnews.com/stories/real-people/woman-ditches-husband-of-eight-years-for-her-personal-trainer/
Note this female got the gina tingles from her gym instructor, then decided ” even though Im happy in my marriage, Im leaving for better pastures”. Her attitude is embodied my so many females – exit commitment at the slightest provocation IF they get the feelz a better deal is on offer, and there is the opportunity to score some alimony in the bargain. Hypergamy right there at its finest.
Women are never satisfied, so why bother trying any more. Guess what? Men could not be bothered any more, and we are leaving for greener pastures too. Gaming, hobbies, drinking, nights out when we like, picking up old milfs who havent had cock in years, riding motorcycles, etc,etc. In other words, men are being indoctrinated by other men that the single life is actually much better than the married life.
And its working, as all women complain men wont commit. Surprise, surprise.
Really, if you dont get it now, you never will.
Of course blue pillers like Matt Forney cant accept that. He is derided on the MGTOW forum I inhabit. He just doesnt get the MGTOW ethos. He’s a loser who will eventually sign up with another woman and eventually get asset stripped.
Fuck you and your arrogant shit!
You really couldn’t find another platform to improve life on the planet?
You are a naive little one full of shit
You are just batshit crazy, that’s all.
Be a submissive asexual and go clean a forest.
“Frankly my dear… I don’t give a damn!” Rhett Butler/Clark Gable said it best! Whatever, I’m out.
This is very good for you. I am very proud of you. This is the way women are taught that we must think in order to maintain or retain our autonomy and to not allow ourselves to be absorbed by men. And likewise man should do the same.
Take your snide comment and shove it
It was in no way snide. Sorry u feel that way .
The way you presented it was. Your tone was rather condescending. This isn’t the place for you to go “good boy”. And I could give a rats ass what you’re proud of. You ignorant hosebeast… We don’t do this because we want to… We do this because people like you have wrecked our culture and humanity. It’s nothjng to be proud of… As you obviously are. It’s tragic. And so are you
People like me? Oh brother . Eye bubba.
Sheesh. Asshole much?
Thank you. I take that as a complement
Brilliant post.
I really like this post.
1) The only real control women have over any man is their penis. That’s it, nothing else. If a man allows himself to be dictated by the women’s wants and needs, he will step down or give up certain things for it. After sex? get out.
2) Now it really is complex but the bottom line women are acting like this is because of the government/state laws that protect them. In reality only one person can hold the power, the man or the woman. As long as people are held to contract, things can work, but that’s a very unrealistic world.
3) MGTOW is nothing more than seeing something in a different view and deciding how to control THEIR ACTIONS. Not the actions of others. So in reality, no one is being hurt. But it sends a message to the opposite sex and the government, and to society.
I don’t think the current structure will ever change and what it should even change into, but it just shows how interpersonal relationships work.
And all the MGTOW shout ….”THE JUICE IS NOT WORTH THE SQUEEZE.”
Your 100%. Right. A women does want to live In a world where she is controlled by a ft long penis. Men would rather not get pussy then be controlled by it (most men)
Females are controlled by actual abusers. Do not complain about it. They just get dumped by them. And take it out on the nice guy.
This guy has it right.
The core of MGTOW for most of us is simply regaining control over our lives. Many of us have been married once before and experienced the foolishness that goes with marriage (to the wrong person) and the consequences, including the absurd treatment by the “family court” system that largely steals our rights to our own children as well as half our stuff and gives it to someone who did not work to earn it.
There is nothing wrong with taking control of one’s life away from USER women and doing with one’s life the things that build that life into a happy one financially, emotionally, etc. If the right woman comes along…then great! But being free of slavery to a woman (ruled by emotion rather than logic) is absolutely wonderful. Feminism has ruined most women. It is good for a man to be VERY selective in choosing a spouse, and to pay attention to the dynamics of any relationship with a woman.
..and you are correct – but the problem is that like those people who want to go around and make people “aware” that doing meth can ruin your life, because it did ruin theirs, is that THOSE people are the only ones who needed the talk, lol. The kid that gets his tongue ripped off the steel pole in the winter because it froze to it wants to run around and let everyone else know not to do that – the rest of us already knew – that’s why it didn’t happen to us. The irony of a bunch of men banding together, in a group, to “go their own way” seems to be lost on everyone.
I’m sorry if this makes me unpopular but I hate to see us eating each other alive. First of all in today’s western culture inability to date or get laid is not necessarily an indication of a loser. Western women are so debased and as this site has hammered over and over again attracted to “damaged men”. We are constantly reminded here of Lena Dunham, Anita Sarkeesian, Chanty Morris, Jessica Valenti, Clementine Ford, Zoe Quinn, Mattress Girl Emma, and on and on. We know that fewer and fewer men are getting more and more of the action. I think in this day and age of anything goes there are more men celibate by force or choice then there ever were back in the Stone Age when I was young. Who the hell wouldn’t consider withdrawing from this madness? I myself have seen and experienced first hand what 50 years of rabid feminism has done to men. The carnage is real and today’s society ferocious in its hostility to anything remotely masculine. If I was a young man, which I definitely am not, I would be the hell out of here (the west) so fast it would make your head spin. If I absolutely had to stay in the country of my birth, I would work hard, build wealth and lift like crazy. Of course I would want a regular sex life but the vast majority of western women don’t need enabled for one more second.
i think it’s fair to call such a person a loser. if that offends anyone, it only shows that this person is not convinced of what he is doing.
i have been pretty much a loner the last two years and i accept if people say that’s fucked up. it was my choice and i stand by it. nothing is keeping me from changing it – or attempting to.
Do you base your self esteem on your ability to fuck women? I can see that if you did, of course men who don’t chase women or women just don’t like must be losers. Women are not worth the trouble let alone a basis for our self worth.
self-esteem is an estimation of my self.
if i am bad with women, i estimate myself lowly in that regard. that means, i have a low self-esteem in regard to women.
loser is self-explanatory.
if i lose with women, i am a loser with women.
a man who knows the meaning of words doesn’t get offended by them.
the more interesting question is: do you base your self-esteem on how well others estimate you, that is, do you not think for yourself and are dependent on approval?
No, if you require external validation, your happiness, peace of mind will be inconstant. People are flaky!
A man should listen to his own counsel, should think what he believes is right and do or try to do what he thinks best. Not what somebody else tells him or shames him into thinking.
yes.
I don’t entirely agree with Matt’s article in the sense that he has clumsily grouped anyone that has not fallen into mainstream categorization as an MGTOW, which he equates as sexless nerds and sexual untouchables. Which is wrong.
This being said, men should go their own way. Why? Because if a man is following his own path, and meets a woman with similar interests —they may be more likely to hit it off. However, men should protect themselves. There are women that are divorce rapists and have dishonest intentions.
you are entitled to your opinion about some hypothetical natural order and the usual human interconnectedness blah blah. i don’t buy it.
but your article is a great wake up call for those who choose such a “philosophy” for the wrong reasons, escaping the challenge. fear.
for me personally it was never the need to belong to some movement, more a general conviction of individualism that doesn’t need to be “on par” with some religious movement which i consider silly.
nonetheless, i respect the criticism that it is cowardly to not try. indeed, i want to be able to look in the mirror and not think “you are lying to me, you son of a bitch.”
thanks.
Matt, did you meet a precious unicorn or something?
it was a horse with a strap-on.
I’m stealing that
for your new superman costume?
Don’t get too excited over there
did i find somebody’s kryptonite?
I found my kryptonite. God damn is she ever dangerous.
pussy-whipped. wake up, brother.
My eyes are wide shut. I won’t deny she has me whipped. Fortunately she lives in another country so I am safe. I cannot deny that if she lived here and told me to come, I’d come running. I can only pretend to her that I don’t give a damn.
Stay away from 10s man. They will melt your brain and keep your balls in their purse.
No matter how hard you think you are, every Super-Man is weak around kryptonite.
“Fortunately she lives in another country ”
Not Dubai, by any chance?
i was tempted to accept such a mindset when i heard it from much bigger men than me. felt like “hey, they would know” and in a way, having a strong foe – so to speak – made me proud.
yet i realized that such a mindset will always make me weak. the slightest doubt of my rationality will make it a mere question of intensity until i break. there is no pride in being overpowered, there is only pride in aloof victory.
but each man does his own choice, of course.
You won’t believe it until it happens. However, if you accept it is possible, you will be better equipped to deal with it.
Oh you have one too?
i accept that my emotions will scream and tear me apart. i accept that i will want to obey them and do a few times.
but i am certain that i will ultimately choose freedom. i think i have something in my genes that prefers suffering and selfishness to happiness.
i was madly in love with this one girl for years. never fucked her, but kissing her did something weird once – as if my bones turned from hard to jelly. i thought “fuck it” and didn’t resist. i can only fathom what fucking her would do.
nevertheless, there was this incident where i behaved in a way that completely alienated her. i felt devastated, but didn’t consider for a second to excuse myself.
but yes, who knows, crazy things can be done with a mind that is bound to these stupid emotions. actually, a study has shown that these bonding chemicals resemble the effect of heroine on your body.
have a pic of your kryptonite?
If you fucked her you would have fucked yourself. I could forget about her before I had fucked her. Now my brain is putty. It was the best fuck I had ever had (primarily because I wanted it so bad). I got loads of pics but I try not to look at them. Its like abstaining from drink when you’re a recovering alcoholic.
you know, scientology does these basic trainings where you stare at each other until it stops to bother you.
when i feel somebody has too much power over me, i like to imagine them or look at a picture and feel what my body and mind feels obliged to do and accept that it feels like the most pure intuition. key is not to fight the emotion itself, that doesn’t work. it’s conditioning, after all. that’s hard because the emotion is so damn intrusive that it just feels wrong to accept it. but when i do allow it to myself and keep the exposure for a while, it’s like a kind of mask falls off the other person – the mask resembling the function of the other person for my life. that also goes with questioning the emotion. when the emotion says “go there and you will be happy forever”, honestly and without the slightest emotional investment i ask: “is that true?” very interestingly, such simple honest questioning often completely eliminates my need to act on an emotion. sometimes i need a few times.
never thought that withdrawal works very well. withdrawal is a bit like telling yourself you don’t want something. which is a lie.
but underneath it all always lies the conviction that emotions are not mystical, rather curious and intense experiences and challenges to the mind. once that conviction is lost, it becomes infinitely harder.
that’s my flame:
http://abload.de/img/11003954_394908747355eao2u.jpg
Fantastic photo. And she looks dangerous…
That is an interesting approach to dealing with “addiction”. I will have to consider it. Its hard thing to deal with. Having discussed her now she is front and center in my mind. Doesn’t help that we had a little conversation today and got on well. And I have to say, part of me likes the power she has over me…
she is. the perfect gentle whore, yet narcissistic to the core.
yeah, that’s what i mean. you like the power. i can only speak for myself when i say that i wanted that kryptonite to feel like superman. for a long time, i was glad that there were feminists so that i could feel like a martyr and blame them. we all construct our foes to be heroes. and yet it is a cultural stereotype that i think every rational man must question. and i think the pride that comes with it is something that he must overcome.
don’t forget that what you like is based on your belief system. just make it conscious and question it, not with contempt with curiosity. maybe you’ll even come to the conclusion that you want to be whipped. in a way, that’s the danger of really considering it. on the other hand, if you decide for freedom, the decision will be definitive.
i have come to the conclusion that fighting feminism has to start by “fighting” yourself. they tell us to “be ourselves” precisely because they had the chance to condition us to their liking. that means we can never fully trust our intuition and emotional judgment, but take it as a first hint. what feels “natural” to us is often precisely our conditioning. i think addiction is partly so hard to overcome because people do not learn to question their yearnings.
here’s my take: it is okay to crave an enemy, but it is not okay to construct one. it is okay to want a fight, but it is not okay to want to lose. or to prolong a fight that can be won quickly.
seen inception?
plant an idea. the smallest idea, spreading like a cancer, ultimately destroying the organism. the slightest doubt, destroying the mind. what is that slightest doubt, that innocuous and subversive idea? the idea that starts as a slight imperfection and ends up a backdoor?
the belief in kryptonite.
Yes indeed. Falling for this chick felt so right, so normal, so perfect. But it was all an illusion. And even though I knew this at the time, it was nearly impossible to override these feelings. Good sense was ebbing away in spite of the evidence building up that this was a bad thing.
The perfect woman is a dangerous drug.
well, maybe it’s not an illusion. at least, maybe you are not convinced it is. if you were, after all, would it be so hard to stay away?
“it was a horse with a strap-on.”
Sarah Jessica Parker?
why, that is a nice horn in her face.
As much as I agree with the author’s statements, he could have gone about it in a much better way. Calling everyone in the group you’re criticizing a lonely perma-virgin, and posting one of those troll MS paint images as a serious accompaniment to your writing, make you just as petty as the people you’re criticizing. Address the arguments; a little bit of name-calling and personal speculation of where the movement is headed (“political homosexuality”) here and there is alright, but you can’t make 75% of your article about it. Are these the kinds of arguments I can expect to see on RoK now?
This is the kind of emotional, subjective rant I would expect to see on Jezebel. It is difficult to wade through such name-calling to try to get to the gist or substance of the article. Eventually you realize – there is none.
Scroll down and you’ll see that I likened it to Jezebel as well.
I have a new acronym for Fatboy, Cappy and Aurini
MJTOS
Men Jumping Their Own Shark.
interesting choices there – I see the similarities
The Rational Male and Chateau Heartiste are still well worth reading
…
Well done. I pretty much said this on a video and was amused at how upset the “migtows” got.
They ARE the SJW’s of the manosphere – social constructivism that denies the true nature of things and are happy to sit around and do nothing while the world passes them by. Perfect analogy.
You say ‘Sit around and do nothing.’ Scroll down through the comments here. You’ll see all kinds of comments about ‘business owning’ ‘pursuing interests’ ‘hobbies’ etc. I think most MGTOWS are the exact opposite of the butthurt dweller, Doritos gamer that Forney and Cappy are trying SO HARD to portray. I just don’t get this whole brouhaha.
A man who isn’t getting pussy is an incomplete man. I speak as a former non-pussy getting man.
Yeah it would be impossible and pointless. I haven’t heard too many MGTOWS openly say “I will never get a woman again” That’s not what MGTOW is 98 times out of 100 from what I’ve seen. It’s just different terms–using game on occasion, going abroad, dropping your morals and using escorts or simply approaching women from a different angle–as someone who lives for self improvement and can confidently approach a woman knowing that rejection is just “Meh, back to the gym then (or workshop, library, etc)” And the girl is like, “What? You’re not devastated? Hey wait. Where are you going?” That’s still MGTOW to me. It’s not all guys playing vids with an ice pack on their ballsack.
ice pack? brilliant idea.
Can we see the video or is it X rated?
You have libertarianism completely wrong:
How did you get from that, that “libertarians … ignore that humans are fundamentally interdependent, with countless relationships—laws, customs, family connections etc.—binding us”?
Libertarianism is pretty clearly focused on the individual. “Me me me- my rights, my stuff, my choices”. Nothing else matters so long one can live how they want, family, friends, or society be damned.
unfortunately, many libertarians really are very childish – which is why they ultimately fail in the real world and get caught up in inner-party debates, for instance.
selfishness is cool, but many people consider selfishness to be “everything somebody else doesn’t want me to do + resisting everything they want me to do + never looking like i do something good for somebody.”
it’s actually very unselfish, because it depends completely on external validation – even if in a screwed up way.
that actually doesn’t make you happy. good selfishness is responsibility and living a fulfilling life based on your own standards.
That’s not what the above definition says.
MGTOW is great in terms of explaining a great number of
things that, from a logical point of view, never made any sense. There is an awareness that all men need, especially if your time is finite and you consider it to be valuable. Between public schools systems, and rampant single-motherhood, I don’t think it’s taught anymore: the value of a man’s time. That said, once you reach that point of awareness, there isn’t much more to be gained from MGTOW except wallowing in self-pity, which I think there is a bit too much of with a lot of MGTOW content.
It’s a question of what to do next. You need to get your ass
to the gym, start a business, go back to school, travel, or whatever. You need to do something. Becoming the equivalent of Japanese grass-eaters is not the answer, nor is throwing other men under the bus, which I see a lot of with this MGTOW vs Trad-Con rift. There’s enough of that to go around already and it isn’t going to win over these “losers” as you may describe.
I think travelling is important. There is a tendency for people to see the world based on their immediate surroundings. There are places where traditional masculinity is still appreciated. For example, “Cat-calling” is only a problem in the west. To women in other places, it’s a compliment, even if you are fat and ugly, non-western women know how receive male attention, solicited or otherwise. There is a masculine-feminine dynamic that is still intact in many places.
Personally, I’d like to see men, on mass, become successful and take their productivity to places that still value that dynamic. It’s a balance that has been lost here in the west. Perhaps western civilization has peaked, and it’s time for us to leave and bring up the rest of the undeveloped/underdeveloped world, while feminist and lefties run the west into the ground. Im not interested in contributing to advancing western society to appease these people, I’d rather take my efforts elsewhere where my work. time, productivity, and male qualities are still valued. It’s a better option than staying in here in one place and taking a pacifist disposition in life.
I thought you people would have liked MGTOW/VGTOW – more options for everyone else!
Running game in a culture like america is exhausting, approaching countless average women for the chance of the random lay. That’s why men start to drop out. Any female who isn’t fat, no matter how messed she is in other ways, can order sex off her smart phone dating profile like getting dominoes pizza delivered to her door.
There’s a significant difference between retiring and never lacing up the skates.
Good post. MGTOWs are whiners plain and simple who get zero pussy.
There are 40 y/o virgins, omega males. There are also single fathers who are living for the kids and focusing on work. There are very religious men. There are men who are burned out players. I make a distinction between involuntary celibates and other MGTOWs.
A lot of shaming language.
Every manospherian who hates on MGTOW has a book to sell. A book, a DVD, a series of lectures, a PUA “Boot Camp”, or just runs a blog that takes donations. Follow the money, guys – it isn’t rocket science.
well, guess why Roosh turned on the rest of us.
I run away from everyone who tries to tell me what it is being a man and what it is not. So bye Matt Forney. I don’t know if that means I am a MGTOW or not, but I know I hate those who are always pretending to tell us what to think or what to do.
With articles like this, this site is becoming a cult, instead a place where to exchange new ideas.
And by the way, if someone is a virgin, why should we mock him? I can’t understand that line of tought. I mean, there is not a clearer way to show everyone you are a loser than choosing to fight the weakest.
I prefer to try to encourage everyone to keep living than to suicide, like this writer is doing.
I agree 100% with what you have written. The article employs rhetorics that are usually the domain of women.
I’d put this another way. There are three different kinds of people who associate themselves with MGTOW:
– The “monk mode” men, who have put aside pursuit of women for a time to improve themselves
– The angry incel, as represented by MGTOWunited, et al. These men are often misogynistic (“women can’t be humans” – Sexy MGTOW) and overall unhappy people
– The lost and confused, who are developing a “red pill” understanding of the world and find kindred spirits among MGTOW.
Forney is focused primarily on that second category, because these are the voices that are screaming the loudest on the MGTOW front today.
Clearly, “40 year old virgins” types are not MGTOW by choice. They’re rationalizing.
For everyone else:
In a society where sex is readily available, love is an ill defined abstraction, and the consequences of divorce are all too real, not getting married is a sensible choice.
I’m confused. RoK and other manosphere sites started out as reactionary places because of the shaming tactics of the Sarkeesian crowd/feminist third wave. So, now it’s stylish again to shame men for making their own choices and not buying Kratom and the other stuff like pimped out apartments that RoK is peddling?
Are Christian men who aren’t sleeping around with hos also a target here? Maybe it’s just the Muslim guys screwing white girls that are the real men, then?
Again, I ask: WTF happened to RoK?
“So, now it’s stylish again to shame men for making their own choices and not buying Kratom and the other stuff like pimped out apartments that RoK is peddling?”
That, and not rejecting the theory of evolution.
what’s wrong with the theory of evolution?
It’s just another battle that’s raging within manosphere circles:
http://www.rooshv.com/the-theory-of-evolution-does-not-apply-to-modern-human-beings
http://therationalmale.com/2015/06/09/in-defense-of-evo-psych/
http://themanthemyth.com/roosh-aint-no-good-at-book-learnin/
yes, i noticed. pretty stupid from my viewpoint. you wouldn’t use game theory to bake a chicken so why use evolution to explain human behavior?
always look for the purpose a theory serves.
Nothing. So long as it is kept in perspective. Currently it is scientific theory and not scientific law, meaning it is only one potential and possible explanation.
However, many people become zealous in their belief and consequent defense of this theory (much the same as the Global Warming crowd and others).
It becomes cult-like behavior that is really just as faith/opinion-based as religion, until the point of theorizing (seeking the truth) or holding that opinion is thrown out in favor of being able to claim all skeptics as inferiors and oneself as infallibly correct, classic childish narcissism. In this way it becomes divisive and damaging.
Notice I never said evolution was right or wrong, but in most cases would be blindly attacked for “perceived” criticism.
sounds like a reasonable assessment. besides creationism – which offers no logic at all – what are competing theories?
As far as I know there are really only variations on the two (evolution/creation) depending on how one classifies some of these:
There are several different competing theories within the umbrella term “evolution.” Darwinism is one, others would be Lamarcksim, Panspermia, Spontaneous Generation, Symbiogenesis, Theistic Evolution, and Punctuated Equilibrium, etc.
There is Intelligent Design, Stabilization Theory, Morphic Resonance, Cosmic Ancestory, Christian Science, and Alien Seeding (a blanket term for the ones that say alien life visited our galaxy and created us, I tend to place Scientology here), etc.
There are several religious “creationist” theories outside of Christianity: Gaia, the World Turtle, Nordic Cosmogony, Hare Krishna (and broader Hindu Creationism), Shintoism’s Izanami story in the Kojiki, the Egyptian story of Nun, and then Buddhism states that the universe is infinite and has no beginning.
god, why are people so obsessed with theories? why don’t they just stick with the facts…
oh, well.
didn’t even imagine there were so many. thanks for the insight.
While baking a chicken with negs would take a decades, much of human behaviour can be explained with the theory of evolution my friend.
chicken mcnegs. raw pleasure. i like.
evolution doesn’t explain behavior, it explains the inheritance of heritable traits.
social norms are not heritable – although i think it’s fair to say that some traits make you more susceptible to them.
but you see that we are using the ambiguous term “explaining behavior” here.
if i want to predict traits that are likely to be inherited, yes, then evolution serves me well. if i want to predict how a person will behave in a certain situation, then all evolution can say is: this behavior, at some point, was created through random aberration and has managed to be passed on.
what i am saying is: if you want to predict human behavior, you need a model that focuses on this specific question. yes, you can always intermingle basically everything with evolution, but it’s usefulness is limited.
you can explain through evolution that blu rays won the competition and hd dvds lost and “died out”. yet evolution explains nothing about the technicalities of a blu ray. see what i mean?
There are certainly more variables than just “evolution” for explaining and predicting cases of human behaviour. But it does provide a framework for thinking about it.
I think I misread your statement initially as anti-evolution Bible thumping kinda thing… Which I’ll always pipe up about…
nope, clark, i’m as pro-evolution as it gets. although my knowledge of the theory is severely limited. i have the origin of species in my bookshelf – will need to read one day.
You’ll probably have to read it multiple times to fully absorb it. I’ve read it a few times, still haven’t fully absorbed it. Each time I read it again I make a new connection I missed the previous times.
But I always find it incredibly interesting.
We originate in the sea. A human embryo starts in the shape of a shrimp.. Maybe it has something to do with the Fibonacci ratio I don’t know, but it’s a damn shrimp. 🙂
If someone is so focused on nothing but having sex with random women, it’s achievable. Given the state of modern society, I’m not really sure it’s lofty or even difficult.
What this article seems to amount to is nothing more than saying, “Hey look at me, I spent years perfecting the art of earning female approval!” Yes, and we all applaud the effort. What did you get out of it?
There are 2 types of MGTOWS, and I’ve seen both on manosphere forums,
1. The Bitter/Fraudulent MGTOW
-Spends alot of time bitching about women/feminism/court systems etc. on manosphere forums instead of finding solutions to said problems and/or adapting to their environment.
– Doesn’t actually go his ‘own way’, as they believe the world should cater to their whims as if they are entitled to it(ironically similar to feminists in this regard)
-Sub-concience hatred of women, whether they can admit it to themselves is up to the individual. Don’t get me wrong, alot of men here have been burnt one too many times by women but hating women for their actions is like hating a dog for barking.
-Usually succumbs to the abyss of nihilism
-Is Anti-family(ironically similar to feminists again)
2. The Credible MGTOW
-Pursues things that interest him(without seeking the validation of women).
-Understands the nature of women. Knows you can’t blame a fish for swimming so he develops the game to get/keep women but knows women are a perk to his life so he doesn’t chase them with the same vigour and determination of PUA’s
-Believes in building a family with a worthy woman but is content with a life solitude if such a women does not come into his life.
-Actually ‘goes his own way’- {insert your dreams and aspirations}-actions speak louder than words
————————————————–
I’ve actually seen way more Bitter MGTOWS than Credible MGTOWS on ROK and other forums which made me very skeptical about the authenticity of the MGTOW ‘movement’ as they exhibited the very same behaviour seen in feminists(the bitching, the whining and the self-entitlement)
“No man is more unhappy than he who never faces adversity. For he is not permitted to prove himself” -Seneca
“Manhood is the defeat of childhood narcissism.” –David Gilmore
great quote by gilmore. that is my opinion, too.
There are a lot of men going their own way without ever hearing that acronym nor associate with any so-called movements.
Well said! And great end quotes!
“hating women for their actions is like hating a dog for barking”
—————————–
What’s wrong with hating dogs for barking?
Understand that without legit authority over females the “females are children that can’t be held accountable” philosophy is hardly more than a defacto pussy pass.
> I’ve actually seen way more Bitter MGTOWS than Credible MGTOWS
probably because the latter doesn’t waste their time with fruitless debates like this.
I think I’m sort of in the middle on this issue because I do consider myself a mgtow but I do not appreciate the mgtows who use it as an excuse to accomplish nothing with their lives.
As far as dating or not dating, it really depends on how high a priority you make the opposite sex. I’ve had a lot of girlfriends and sex partners in the past. Right now at this point in my life, such things aren’t that important. I’m putting the time and resources I would spend on women into furthering myself in other ways.
Being continually successful with women is not “the” definer of manhood. It is “a” definer for sure. Pursuing remarkable goals in life is a much broader aspiration men should strive for. It is totally fair to criticize the mgtows giving up on life. I don’t think that represents most mgtows.
“but I do not appreciate the mgtows who use it as an excuse to accomplish nothing with their lives.”
But who are those guys? Who is espousing that? Who is championing MGTOW in the name of doing nothing? Where is that connection being made? Just the concept that foregoing marriage is STILL, EVEN IN THE MANOSPHERE, immediately equated by ‘accomplishing nothing in life’ (even though the insinuation is accidental) is so disheartening.
Again, who are the guys standing up and saying “I’m MGTOW, I THUMB MY ASS ALL DAY LONG WHILE PLAYING VIDEO GAMES. IT’S WHAT I BELIEVE IN.” Who are those guys? Why is it the knee jerk identification?
“Just the concept that foregoing marriage is STILL, EVEN IN THE MANOSPHERE, immediately equated by ‘accomplishing nothing in life’ (even though the insinuation is accidental) is so disheartening.”
I neither said nor “insinuated” anything of the sort.
“But who are those guys? Who is espousing that?”
Dig around on youtube long enough and you’ll find plenty. BTW, I don’t think they are in the majority & I can point to many prominent mgtows who do advise men to develop themselves: Sandman, Barbarossaaa, as two prominent examples.
You insinuated that without doubt. Because how would you know who accomplishes what? All you know about these people online that you’re addressing is that they’re MGTOW—moving away from women, either outright or in the traditional sense. That’s all you know, right? Then you categorize that as ‘accomplishing nothing’. The fact that you don’t recognize your own insinuation doesn’t mean that there wasn’t one. We don’t know each other here online. We’re all online handles, just bs’ing with each other. Forney, Cappy, Aurinin and even you (to a small extent) extrapolate all these crappy traits just to conform to their logic. That’s what I’m tired of. All those vids you reference—I haven’t seen them. I don’t deny their existence but I just haven’t delved that far into MGTOW I guess.
Exactly. It’s basically not letting our relationships and success with women define us as men.
One could go further and argue that being continually successful with most women today is the opposite of defining manhood. One should want to be successful with the cream of the crop… not with average debacherous western women today. This is one of my major schisms with the neomasculine culture:
Yes… we love to get our dick wet. BUT… instead of constantly chasing the pussy and de facto enslaving ourselves to it…. throw that PUA shit away and refuse to give attention and sexual gratification to women who do not deserve it (read: 90% of them). Yes it’s fun… yes it’s a fleeting pastime pursuit… but you continue the downward spiral when you do it. You empower the feminazi bullshit agenda.
There are few things that make a man feel more like a man… than walking away from an 8 or a 9 who you know is not worthy of your attention.
Gee I don’t know, there’s some great wisdom and a whole lot of comedy to be gleaned from here: http://www.mgtow.com/
Was this article written by a woman? I haven’t read that much shame and ridicule of men since the last time I looked at Jezebel!
Ha! Three Jezebel references now. I made one myself. Good job fatboy!
What I think guys should “take away” from all of this is one basic truth: perceptions matter. I’ll say it again: perceptions matter. There is absolutely nothing wrong with going your own way, and doing your own thing. No one is faulting anyone for that.
But the problem is that some guys take a good thing too far. The valid principle of “going your own way” slowly but surely morphs into something else: give-up-itis.
Give-up-itis is a disease. It is a complete withdrawal from the responsibilities of life. And there is a sizeable component of guys out there who dignify their giving up on life with the alleged embrace of some higher principles. That’s all we’re saying.
And as much as it pains us to admit it, there is a cloud that hangs over the head of the MGTOW clan. I know there are a lot of sincere, good guys there, but perceptions do matter. And the whole MGTOW philosophy is just too susceptible to abuse by quitters who are looking for a safety blanket.
Men need a philosophy of life that is action-oriented, so that his natural tendencies to backslide are kept in check.
“men” need confidence in their ability to make choices that are good for them and forget these labels.
I can understand if dudes back out of “game” to enjoy doing their shit, being productive, enjoying hobbies, etc. So long as that doesn’t descend into autistic wizardry like playing video games all fucking day.
Tbh, I think anyone not making babies has failed one of their primary biological umm………. obligations – if that is the word.
I can understand these guys too.. even if they quit the “game” and all they do is play video games all day long – as long as they are able to pay their own bills. I mean The number of psychotic dodos in this world seems to be only increasing and the only way to not lose is to not play.
But I honestly believe that we aren’t meant to die alone you know… Even those psychos who blow themselves up are promised 150 virgins in their heaven.
I think it comes down to accepting the world as it truly is, instead of fantasing about how we’d like it to be. I loved to win the lottery, but the odds are I won’t. Same with marriage and family, it’s just to toxic an environment now for men to indulge in. And remember, we are always one 911 call away from having our lives stripped from us. Women now have the police powers of the state behind them, we can never forget that. I’m MGTOW, not necessarily cause I want to be, but because I have to be for my very survival now.
Those guys that quit the game for video games and anime waifus and jack off to hentai all day are lacking proper perspective. Without children, your line ends and the future will belong to the children of those that do reproduce. And since the ones that have been reproducing the past couple of generations have been mouth breathers, we are now reaping what they have sowed: fucking Millennials
“Same with marriage and family, it’s just to toxic an environment now for men to indulge in.”
Umm.. to be honest, I really believe that it is a lot easier now to spot the psychos than ever before. The only lottery i see is in meeting someone who isn’t a psycho that you would “weed out” in a few dates you know..?
A lot of my friends are getting married lately. And it surprises me about how silly each of their definitions / expectations are from a family. For most of our parents, marriage really means codependence/interdependence. (Husband works outside the home, wife works inside the home). A lot of my friends seem to think “independence” is the key. So let’s see how it goes… I used to think children and family are “optional” too. A family member in his 50s had a heart surgery last year. I couldn’t imagine what he would be like if it werent for his kids/wife to you know.. be there.. (And depending on where you live, maybe even share the bills/burden)
The simple reason I am optimistic is, as toxic as it is for men to get into this stuff, it is equally toxic for women to NOT get into this stuff – if not more. Think about it. 30 years of “monthly problems” – completely gone waste? That too on top of the same reason it is bad for us men to not get into this issue. The meh thing is the clock is ticking for everyone…
lol good one.
“Those guys that quit the game for video games and anime waifus and jack off to hentai all day are lacking proper perspective.”
Mhm. I can’t define what intelligence is but one way i define stupidity is lack of ability to evaluate how their actions can affect even themselves… That’s how I actually like this place. Parents here nag their kids non stop to give them grandchildren. And that is still the norm here. I used to think of things like this here as “overbearing parents” but the more I think about it, I keep asking myself “so what?”.
I think I am really a fan of Godfather styled families lol. There’s something quite cool about it.
Yeah there’s a real shortage of humans
Hm, who the heck cares. In the end, you will die, your children and their children will die, your genetic legacy will die, the earth will die, the entire universe will collapse and there will be sweet nothingness. In the end, it does not matter. It’s a pointless argument. Simply enjoy your one life and screw the rest.
Just what we need a future filled with the entitled scions of self-absorbed money men. You know the one’s whose wives had to get all sorts of fertility treatments because she strung out the baby making game well into her 30s.
Fight for a society that promotes family formation, or call the social contract broken into further notice.
Its your “biological obligation” to make a baby that could grow-up to hate you, be mentally challenged or physically deformed, or the next Charles Manson. & then its the woman’s obligation, by the statutes of the government & courts, to hold you hostage at the threat of divorce or take you for child support …
I hope I don’t die alone. I will need someone to bring me a glass of water when i’m on my death bed.
Yes there is. That’s why a lot of countries are actually starting campaigns like “Do it for Denmark” or opening their immigration gates, so their ageing population can retire while someone else is working for their economy, if not taking care of their old.
You, um… are aware that the natural extension of your argument is to just go and shoot yourself and get it over with, right?
“I hope I don’t die alone. I will need someone to bring me a glass of water when i’m on my death bed.”
And that’s the reason you can be optimistic, because that part isn’t specific for men alone.
Also don’t you think the people who are pushing for laws like this don’t understand that nothing is more dangerous than men with nothing to lose? That’s why I think things will change.
It’s the government policies that are causing the lack of ingenious breeding.
I know what will fix it, more government meddling!
Who else do you think has the money/power to “spread awareness” of this issue… So that the policies responsible for such a situation can be identified and weeded out?
Let’s face it, one of the biggest systems that made sure people kept breeding is really dying out – religion. Most people don’t seem know why one needs to have a “family” anymore. The only people who are directly getting affected by people not breeding is “the government”./”the economy”. So they will be the first ones that will do the meddling.
It looks like we basically agree on the fundamentals, I too don’t know why one would need to have a family now. More expense, more risk, less opportunities and less freedom.
Not for me.
Well… depends… mostly on how rich you are.
I belong to the urban middle class – upper middle class to be precise, where I live. So this is how I reached my current frame of mind.
As for the kids thing, a family member in his 50s had to undergo a heart surgery last year. I simply couldn’t imagine how it would have been for him if it werent for his family/kids to take care of things. Be it just emotional support / financial support / useful connections (doctors, insurance people, etc…) / what not. A friend took over his dad’s business and used his contacts in a couple of places, and they are all a *lot* more rich now. A friend’s family made some bad investments and lost a lot of money. So she is now supporting her parents, till their issues are sorted out. There definitely seems to be a lot of tangible/intangible benefits on having more people you can call your people.
So once i saw how kids are not “optional”, the family thing automatically makes sense.. marriage basically means/seems like sharing of familial responsibilities. 2 people saving up for 6 years to buy a house to live in, forever, makes a lot more sense than 1 guy slogging 10 years to pay that loan back. One person can take care of the work inside the house while the other person can take care of things outside the house – basically however you want to split up the responsibilities.
Sure, there are definitely fewer opportunities + freedom if you have a family, But the risk/expenses involved are solely dependent on your choice of your partner. The best part is, it is only getting a lot more trivial to weed out the dodos, you know you don’t want to spend the rest of your life with.
Men today have no say in reproduction other than to refuse to reproduce. If a husband could require his wife to not use birth control, that would be a different matter, but that will not happen until women’s privileges are revoked and we return to the natural pattern of male domination.
“Men today have no say in reproduction other than to refuse to reproduce.”
You are forgetting that their clocks tick faster than ours.
Not to mention.. in most places, no child = less chance of wife bleeding the husband dry after a divorce. So you still have as much say as a woman does in reproduction. You just have 0 say in abortion, which can get you into bigger troubles.. but that is for another day.
So if some dodo says stupid things like “I don’t want babies to ruin my career”, dump her sorry ass off and find another one, because she is directly telling you she puts herself before her family, while you are the one who wants a family. She can have the career she wants, while you find someone who wants to have a family with you.
Why does it matter to you? Are you a daft cunt? If all you wanna do is chase pussy, you should be glad MGTOW exists. Every MGTOW is one less guy to compete with in the sexual marketplace, not that we give a shit about said marketplace. If anything, MGTOW is great for the pussy worshippers, unless what you really care about is having guy friends who praise you for your conquests, then you’re fucked because we don’t give a shit.
Because I actually want to reproduce
Good! So reproduce then and be glad that other men aren’t standing in your way.
That’s not how I look at it. What ever happened to the männerbund?
I kinda agree with you and disagree too.
There is a shit ton of omega autistic humans scum playing MMORPGS and video games in general but these things can actually be quite rewarding and challenging. Old school games and hardcore games in particular are all about reflexes and getting better and better, it’s really rewarding but of course learning a new language or exercising is better but it’s a nice change of pace. It’s all about finding your hobbies and if video games are one then by all means do it.
MMORPG although sucks because no skills are usually involved, the top players are usually the one that spends their lives on them( Meaning they don’t work and play it all day, investing crazy amount of time in them)
I see MGTOW as refusing to allow women to define us as men. I’ve long quit being an ass clown to entertain women, nor do I allow women to be the center of my existence. I live life on my own terms, but that doesn’t mean I don’t see women, I just don’t organize my life around them as I use to do.
Is it correct to assume that the “need [for] a philosophy of life that is action-oriented” means positive obligation? Moral philosophy/ethics is interesting. Positive moral laws are a slippery slope, and I don’t think the backsliding which you perceive is due to a negative [opt-out] philosophy. Putting forward a category of “quitters” is not insightful, as far as I can see. It doesn’t seem wise to dig no further than to say “oh, that guy’s a qutter, that’s all”. Perhaps a quitter is actually quite determined in a different direction, and perhaps there is a great sagacity in learning that sometimes the only winning move is not to play…
Fair points, and wish Forney would have focused that direction rather than an almost unreadable screed. Seriously, wth
Quintus, thanks for your insights. Points taken, rich as it is coming from a smart RoK mod about perceptions mattering, but never mind. You know. In any case your articles are much appreciated.
I believe MGTOW is going to affect the general culture eventually. At this point it’s an anti-marriage and anti-provider male movement and there’s nothing any Tradcon or supposed old school MGTOW can do about that. They’ve lost that battle. The MGTOW movement strikes back at the gynocentric feminist societies of the West like no other “clan” of the manosphere and it’s going to grow.
Alright, I can get the sentiment on why MGTOW (or certain radical strains of it) can be seen as Autistic wizards.
However, they do make a valid point. Men do shit because they enjoy doing shit, in and of itself. MGTOW argues that you shouldn’t be doing things just to land pussy. Do your shit, be successful, and pussy will come as a byproduct.
Exactly. I don’t get the MGTOW bashing recently. Is society scared that men are going to jump the fence, run for the hills and finally be free? Well I certainly hope so. Society hasn’t been good to men, and men have just tired of it.
I can sympathize with the need for a monastic lifestyle of self-improvement through asceticism. But I don’t like the idea of throwing tantrums about women and living a life of Dungeons & Dragons and video games.
Guys have to do guy shit. Take care of business, especially if that business involves self-mastery. But self-mastery isn’t being an autistic wizard.
MGTOW doesn’t mean celibacy. I can have all the women and all the sex I want, I’m just not going to put women on a pedestal and revolve my life around them. It basically means quit being an ass clown to women and do whatever the hell we want. If we want to climb Mt Everest, fine. If I want to sit in my basement and play video games, fine. But we need to quit letting women define us as men. I can define myself just fine.
You are right. And you should define yourself, especially through a coherent philosophy. Here is the problem: women are the majority of the electorate now. You can either keep their vote separate from yours and they will win by attrition, or you can alpha the fuck out of them and get yourself two votes.
Um… I don’t think anyone is “scared”.. no one cares about the men who want to be free.
But what do you think happens when you spread an attitude that its ok to hate women? Do you think that will give feminists less fuel for culture wars? If anything, you are just proving their case, which could result in more ridiculous forced laws. Specially once MGTOW who are hired to hire and give salaries will purposefully give women less or not hire them at all due to being women. Not only that, but the females who DO want to help men, are chased off and called derogatory terms or are told they are worthless… Thus, MGTOW can only do one thing, and that is to make things worse for everyone. Including themselves.
Fuck you, no one is advocating hate but yourself.
-Not sure where the MGTOW = Virgin misconception comes from
-MGTOW bash feminists and leftist all the time
-MGTOW just means putting yourself first, not women, which is exactly what game/PUAs teach
First AVFM tries to co-opt MGTOW, now PUAs are bashing them. What’s the deal?
I’m not sure whether Forney can be classified as a PUA.
Prominent MGTOW bashing feminists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CylhTas78gE
His whole channel is stuff like this. Matt Forney, do your research.
This whole article is a shamble. I have children and yet am a man who’s going his own way.
Matt Forney is bald, fat and spends too much time in front of the computer (low testosterone). He needs to get out more often.
Roosh has excluded MGTOW maybe because they fall under his target audience but this division will not benefit anyone, including Roosh himself.
Really Matt Fourney, you had to include a photo of a geeky guy sitting in front of his computer, I suppose in his moms basement, as an example of MGTOW?! So if I live life on my own terms and not society’s, I guess I’m some geeky loser? Why don’t you send this article to Gawker, I’m sure they’d love to print it. By the way, did you sit in front of a computer to write this article? Loser.
“I wouldn’t be surprised if some “migtows” start advocating “political homosexuality” in the future.”
i noticed how “Sandman” – the mgtow guru started welcoming homosexuals to the mgtow movement so he can get more recognition/fame/money
Return of Kings just proved it’s lack of credibility. Mgtow is not about celibacy, some may choose this life but in no way is it mandatory, to be so would pretty much go against going one’s own way and the parameters that allow one to do so. It is a rejection of marriage, and the gynocracy. A rejection of men being treated as disposable tools by society. It is anti-feminist. Mgtow places one’s own personal goals and ambitions above sacrificing them to serve the desires of women.
The above article makes many assumptions that are simply untrue.
Are there MGTOWS would would like to have sex and relationships with women but lack the skills or resources to do so? Of course Are there MGTOWs who are simply losers by societies standards? Sure. Are there MGTOWS who are not functional people? Sure You will find all sorts of people in any group in the men’s movement.
Does any of the above reflect what the philosophy of MGTOW is about? NO
Well, Forney’s “contributions” tend to demolish credibility everywhere he goes… He wants to be internet famous so bad, all so that he doesn’t have to get a real job.
“Monks and nuns don’t take the vows because they’re angry at not being
able to get a date, they choose their lifestyles because they want to
become closer to God”
I imagine that the issue of getting closer to God has always been mixed with and quite often secondary to more earthly issues.
Its easy for MGTOWs or any kind of splendid or not so splendid isolationism to rationalise / hamsterise their decisions, particularly if its a decision based on fear, however while it may be necessary to allow for this, MGTOW has also proved an anti-dote to the shaming rhetoric of feminism which this article, in seeking to ‘purify’ the independent male’ may end up to some extent reproducing.
The marriage strike in the west has after all never been put forward in the same way as japanese herbivoreanism I don’t think. The comparison to political lesbianism is both apt and inapt. There is a strong economic side to the marriage strike (which seems to be absent with jap herbivoreanism) just as political lesbianism was always primarily economic in its function. On the subject of political lesbianism I think Forney’s wrong in his analysis there: nearly all modern lesbianism is covert political lesbianism: Miley Cyrus attention whores on stage, get criticised by feminists, calls herself a feminist, then a few months later she’s attention whoring as a bisexual / lesbian: the fact that there’s no radical feminist rhetoric involved, and the fact that she’s hedging her bets (which politically speaking is what bisexuality often is) doesn’t make it non-political. We can’t see political lesbianism for what it is any more because it is no longer a secessionary movement. Why? Because it is most persuasive in its sexual economic aspect as a partial secession from male society. The fundamental flaw of the political lesbianism of the 70s was that by withdrawing from society the women involved were ignored. i.e. they didn’t get the male attention they wanted, and their impact on sexual economics was negliglbe for the most part. The key shift in the paradigm of political lesbianism was nothing to do with Andrea Dworkin (who was simply a man-hater), it followed from the ideas of Adrienne Rich – who argued for a ‘lesbian continuum’ – namely a primary self-identification of women with women rather than men, even when they chose to stay as heterosexuals in heterosexual relations. You see this particularly in queer theory, where say Eve Sedgewick Kosofsky describes herself as gender queer, pushes lesbianism amongst women, but remains (happily?) married to a man. All of this was a pretty much secret or at least under the surface movement within feminist gender studies and the university campuses and together with its marketing as a way of life that permits absolute female attention whoring (i.e. the women get more rather than less attention) has resulted in virtually every woman on the planet (unless specifically an evangelical christian) identifying as basically bisexual.
It is this sexual economic aspect to political lesbianism that the manosphere really needs to learn from and understand. Everything is sexual economics, and if MGTOW (I’m not even sure what MiGTOW is at the moment) is good or bad for the manosphere it will depend both on its effects – how it is perceived, what its results are for those who define themselves as such – but above all on how it effects the sexual economic position of men. Of course narcissism, ‘playing hard to get’, and strategic homosexuality probably won’t be viable options for men. Men need to both learn from feminisms successes (re. sexual economics) and understand the differences (homosexuality for instance may have very different implications for men and women respectively, and MGTOW as a form of ‘separatism’ may also not achieve the same result.
The article is getting a lot of flak, but its an important debate. Splendid isolation may or may not work. Very few of us can be Clint Eastwood’s Man with No Name, or indeed probably want to be. So as always its a question of carefully working out and negotiating the economics of the thing. Ultimately a separation, psychic or physical, should be the basis for a return on a stronger rather than weaker basis
They sound like a bunch of faggots.
people can make fun of the MGTOW ideals, but in the end they get the best revenge as working on themselves instead of spending time and money on women makes them more valuable in the future https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eBZ-HZ6yXY
I suppose if you interpret “working on themselves” as “working on their WoW profiles”, you’re more or less correct.
Shaming and name calling. How masculine.
If I point out to a white knight the error of his ways and try to reason with him, but he still will not listen to reason, I have nowhere else to go other than ridicule.
And what they are suposed to do? Gaming? Going from bar to bar pursuing girls and deifying them even more? Ah yes, you would say that they have to improve themselfs and yes, it is true. The thing is that if you don’t have nobody that tells you to improve yourself, or you don’t have any motivation (gaming girls motivation is just as pathetic as being a VGTOW) you won’t make any effort.
Perhaps you see those ‘creepy’ guys like losers, but they are still being MGTOW, maybe a VGTOW sucursal, but they are. At least they are not being played by girls or screwed in marriages, so I don’t see them so much losers as you say. And don’t forget that they didn’t choose this path, they are just victims of this demasculating society that, in the present circumstances, they have chosen being safe in their nest.
And, let’s face it, some men don’t have possibilties to improve and they have to asume loneliness and accept the way they are, as an ugly girl has to do it too.
Hey Matt, you sure you’re not a woman?…..because this is the same nonsense we listen to from the feminists; loser, living in your mother’s basement, can’t get sex etc. I had a law enforcement career and now make a very comfortable six digit income in the private sector. House in CT, apartment in Manhattan. I’m not gay, never have been celibate. I come home to a quiet house or apartment depending on where I’m working. I watch the Yankees games while my long married friends pretend to like Dancing with the Stars to keep peace in the house. I collect and deal antiques on the side. I drink a good brand of single malt when I have the urge. I do what I want when I want where I want for however long I want. I have not a single regret about staying single especially when I see the doormats my old friends have been turned into by years of marriage. I enjoy repelling the advances of women who had good husbands and left them for their imaginary greener pastures. I’m an early version of the MGTOW. I’ll happily die alone and that’s a good thing. Sorry Matt, you dropped the ball on this one.
“Sorry Matt, you dropped the ball on this one.”
Well said. I think Fornay is just trying to ratttle cages to increase readership; and that’s a douchie thing to do.
“trying to rattle cages”…..didn’t think of that but you’re probably right and you’re spot on about it being a douchie thing to do. Seems as though we’re seeing more of this type of thing on this site lately.
In all my life I have not witnessed a relationship where the man was not severely compromised. The amount of shit we all willingly submit too. In most of my relationships it seemed perfectly natural, no more listening to music that I like, own a tv because she wants to leave it on all the time, eat the food that she likes, get caught up in dramas that she causes and make sacrifices for her that she won’t make for me. I’ve never met a man in a relationship who had the upper hand.
Totally agree. I went through the whole spectrum (singe, married, single, married, banged hot chicks, ugly chicks, threesomes, you name it), and I find no better feeling than coming home to a drama free house. Peace and quiet… mmm..
Well, they say that obesity leads to lower testosterone and higher estrogen levels in the body, so maybe? Either way, seems to me like Mr. Forney should spend a little more time working on himself and less time worrying about what others are doing
“i think men should follow a code.”
“i think men should do their own thing.”
“i disagree.”
“i don’t give a fuck.”
Call it as you wish…..but that doesn’t change anything at all. Women in this country are toxic. Feminism has ruint them. Matt, you’re trying to beat a dead horse. Fact is, ISIS is coming to visit and stay a while. Just think…….would you protect an American woman? I won’t. They’ve stolen our civil rights. The actual bad guys are coming. All this feminist hysteria will die in the dust as they are beheaded.
That’s the only way to stop the destruction of our civilization.
ISIS is not coming. They have no navy or air force. They never will have a navy or an air force.
I’m not even convinced that ISIS isn’t a fabricated entity concocted to keep us engaged in ME politics.
“I’m not even convinced that ISIS isn’t a fabricated entity concocted to keep us engaged in ME politics.”
In which case they might well have navy and airforce and might well be coming.
ISIS *is* a fabricated entity. A product of US/Israel/Saudi Arabian/Turkish intelligence agencies.
probably. Their video editing skills are too good. They probably have a contract with PIXAR or something
Not to mention their endless supplies of brand new humvees and other US-made military equipment, all “accidentally” air dropped to them by Uncle Sam.
Even their corny, media introduction to the world was so obviously staged, it’s a miracle that anyone bought it; An endless line of toyota pick up trucks rumbling along an open desert highway, over a section of earth that is presently the main focus of dozens of US military satellites. A single F-16 could have destroyed that entire column within a few seconds.
ISIS – is probably a ‘humourous’ reference to the goddess ISIS. The powers that be would appreciate the irony of a formally misogynous terrorist organisation bearing the name of arguably the chief goddess of the ‘sacred feminine’ (occult) pantheon.
With respect to your last point, I’d also add one only has to look back to the “Road to Basra” massacre – 600 thousand or so incinerated without a single american soldier on the ground forfeiting his life – to realise that 30-40,000 amateurs trained in desert terrorist camps, if they were trained at all (mercenaries aside) poses no threat whatsoever
They’re coming in the oldest way possible. We are literally inviting them here. Obama is a moslem. He’s making it possible. 4G warfare isn’t about using a large military. It’s like, for instance, killing the family of a drone operator. Or, let’s say, an effective special ops troop looses his family when they go to the store. ISIS is all about masculine revenge. Think of all the young men who crave a right of passage to manhood.
Civilization falls when it’s no longer worth fighting for. Do you really think a normal young man has anything with the open perversions practiced today? Islam says that the West is demonic and perverted. A normal young man can see that. ISIS promises revenge upon feminists and Homosexuals. So, when a recruiter shows up, the fields are fertile.
Effeminate elites will deny this until they’re slaughtered. That’s how this always ends up. It’s like the human genome will not tolerate such perversion. I firmly believe that to be God. History doesn’t deal lightly with perversion. It always ends up in huge massacres.
So, yes, ISIS is coming. It may take a while. But the West will grow weaker, and Completely alienate the men who would fight. Mock me as you wish.
“They have no navy or air force. They never will have a navy or an air force.”
The US started out with no navy or air force. Now we have the most powerful navy and air force in the world. What makes you think ISIS couldn’t do the same thing?
Are you pulling our legs? Start with reading Norvell De Atkine, “Why Arabs lose wars.” Take into consideration that literacy, maintenance and R&D are not their strong points.
I’ve not been listening to MGTOW videos for a couple of years now, but this article surprises me; they never sounded like incels to me. Also, I think the conflation with homosexuality is women-logic in itself — an unjustified slippery slope argument based in a seemingly emotional reaction. I’d really want some hard evidence before I started believing the thesis of this article.
Agreed. Forney’s article is pure feminine shaming language and nothing more.
This article is stupid, filled with endless straw men arguments. It is also needlessly divisive to the (still) relatively small manosphere. The last thing we need is pointless infighting.
While I prefer NOT to label myself under any term, MGTOW is the one that, for better or for worse, comes the closest. Plus I credit MGTOW and its many video bloggers for waking me up fully to the Red Pill and giving voice to thoughts that have been in my head for decades.
And for the record:
— I don’t play video games
— I don’t eat Doritos
— I am NOT a virgin, with a promiscously high notch count over nearly 50 years
— I still bang women from time to time, when I find one that does not annoy me
— I am financially successful
— I spend most of my time on business, jiu-jitsu and many other hobbies
— Women are simply priority #82 on my list instead of #1 or #2 for most men
Is there some bitter, whiny garbage on *some* MGTOW forums? Absolutely. But the same could be said of ROK and other “neo-masculinity” sites. In the end, there is a lot of signal within the noise if you have any power of basic discernment.
Again, this article does a disservice. The number of “red pill” men in society is still frighteningly small, given how insane and well-entrenched feminism has become in the past few decades. The last thing we need are some would-be kingmakers to effect a “divide and conquer” strategy. I would expect such plans to come from our enemies, i.e. feminists and big daddy government, not from within our own ranks.
Here’s the thing….just because Forney says he’s pro male, take a hard look at what he actually says. You see, he’s trying to curry favor. Why in the hell would a normal guy want to take a chance on one of these perverted women?
his style is to stir things up. I imagine in that he is keeping to his job description.
I agree that circular firing squads are generally bad for business.
But political power matters.
And the MGTOW brand constitutes a considerable number of guys that, for years, have been holding the manosphere (and by extension the men’s movement) back from establishing that.
Honestly, I agree with Matt here. I may need more proof and a few youtube videos too cement my thinking, but many MGTOWS vociferously come out against this site. They claim ROK are MRA as a whole, and we do not represent them. The few that I’ve seen on youtube also seem to be overweight and whiny about the poor treatment men get in society. If this is what MGTOW truly is, I want no part of it and neither should any sane man.
There are many who post here and call themselves MGTOW. They have reasons, good reasons for doing what they are doing. It could be the stage of life they are in. It could be the women they sought. It could be their overall level of joy that led them down that road. It makes little difference but to them it has led to a certain level of peace and acceptance. Whether that will change in the future who knows.
Being out of relationships and going through a re-orientation stage is normal for men. Every great man who ever needed to accomplish “it”, regardless if he knew what it was or not, did so by leaving the reservation. This was not the intended lifestyle but a necessary move to accomplish their purpose. I’m doing this now. Yet I am not MGTOW. I need my body, mind, spirit, and motivation to be operating at optimal for myself, and much of the disdain I have for current relationship tendencies is due to me wanting children. Reorienting what I do, getting my goals in order, are all per the course of getting enough space to have children and a woman who enhances my life, not detracts from it. Whatever I need to learn to get my optimal life is per the course. This is simply facts not a way of life. Once I learn what I need I’ll move on from this stage.
I agree with your assessment.
I am not mgtow, but I do sympathize with their ideas. They are logical. That’s a big problem for the rest of the sphere that looks down on them (watch sandman on youtube to get a feel for mgtow). Extremely difficult to argue when the other side has the cold facts on its side..
I understand where you’re coming from when it comes to children though.
here’s a sample
I’ve always found the way some guys chase cunt like it’s the only meaning in life to be the most pathetic thing. And that whole virgin age meter is bullshit; I lost my virginity at a young age to a woman, and in retrospect wish I had waited until I was more mature and that it was a more meaningful experience
Of course I understand that not all other men feel this way, but shaming people who do is just ridiculous. I’m not a virgin, but if I had a choice I would rather be a virgin now than to have had the negative sexual experiences that I did
If a guy is trying to get laid but is unable to, that’s one thing (but even in that case, it doesn’t automatically mean he’s a loser) but a guy choosing not to have sex or not to be in a relationship with women (which is more along the lines of what MGTOW is: abstaining from relationships with women, not necessarily occasional sexual encounters) then I don’t see how that makes him loser. Some men genuinely aren’t sex-crazed horndogs; seriously, get over it
I wish Forney would give some examples from one of the MGTOW forums on why he thinks we’re we’re a bunch of whiney, virgin losers. Most of the MGTOWs I hear from have been through a blue pill marriage or two and have all the associated baggage (kids, alimony, CS, etc). The realization that marriage 1.0 no longer exists combined with the financial ass raping we’re taking has caused us to adjust accordingly.
Yeah, some are lonely virgins who waste their time on porn, video games, and junk food, but these are the exceptions rather than the rule. Other than a few hardcore ghosts and incels, MGTOWs can still get laid.
For me personally, I have to ask myself before I approach, “Is banging this girl going to be worth all the potential bullshit that comes with it?” Usually, the answer is “no.” Been there, done that — and I’m still getting half my paycheck garnished as proof!
I think what Matt is getting at is that MGTOW has a shelf-life for men like yourself who have been divorce-raped. Roosh mentioned this in his video post regarding the schism in the red pill community. Roosh predicts that men who get divorce-raped will initially find MGTOW, but then eventually they will tire of it and abandon it, and then eventually discover neomasculinity. We have seen men abandon MGTOW in the past, like Pook for instance…
Pook wrote on the Sosuave forums back in 2000-2006, and then went on to write a blog spanning from 2006-2008 before he finally vanished (or at least retired the handle).
It seems the real men get tired of MGTOW and lose interest in it. I know this because it happened to me. Then ask yourself, who sticks it out and keeps the engine of MGTOW running? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
“We have seen men abandon MGTOW in the past, like Pook for instance…”
Having said what you have to say and then going ghost is not abandoning MGTOW. It could, in fact, be quite the opposite. Going ghost is considered by many to be the ultimate MGTOW act.
There have always been and there will always be MGTOW.
Call them Ishmael.
“Then ask yourself, who sticks it out and keeps the engine of MGTOW running?”
MGTOW is not an organization. It is a collection.
Disclaimer of Bias: I do not identify as MGTOW, although you would likely consider me as such. Or you might consider me a bad boy player. It would depend on when you catch me. I am a MGHOW. The former is plural, that latter singular. I have been divorced, but the marriage was short, left me without encumbrance and is decades in the past.
Do not call me Ishmael. I wandered into the wilderness on my own while still a small child. I view my marriage as an interruption in that, not the cause.
Interesting analysis, but you are arguing over semantics. “Going ghost” is just another way of saying “abandoning”, it means the same thing. I am not passing judgment, I’m just observing a behaviour. There are excellent reasons for going ghost on MGTOW, not the least of which is losing passion for the “collection.” Note that a “collection” is an “organization”, but I think what you mean is that MGTOW is leaderless, like #GamerGate, which is true. I think what Roosh and Quintus Curtius are trying to create with neomasculinity is something different, something that will, perhaps, maintain the passion for the collection and succeed where MGTOW fails, i.e. dissuade the prominent players from going ghost, which would be an important achievement and would set neomasculinity apart from and above MGTOW, n’est-ce pas Ishmael… er… I mean kfg?
Wouldn’t going ghost be going your own way. 100% YOUR OWN way and not what some collective with an acronym wants to define for you?
Well I think the point of joining the collective with the acronym in the first place is to take part in and contribute to the shaping of whatever it is they are defining for you, while at the same time doing some soul-searching within yourself. One would likely remain active in the collective community as long as one felt a passion for contributing to it. Once the passion is gone, one loses interest and disappears from the community, i.e. becomes a ghost. Going ghost is going 100% your own way, yes… but this act effectively abandons the rest of the guys still searching for answers, guys you may have been able to help. Maybe you have no interest in helping them anymore, but you probably did have such interest when you were active in the community. Again, loss of passion leads to going ghost. The community ends up intellectually poorer each time a member ghosts out, which is kind of a shame.
I’m relatively new to MGTOW myself, although in reading the various articles/blogs, both pro and con, I’m somewhat astounded that much of the rhetoric makes me feel like I’ve gone back to junior high. Such tirades seem to invariably degenerate to excessive use of teenage locker room vernacular, making the critics of MGTOW lose credibility.
Shut up you stupid cock gobbler. 😛
Written by a complete tool.
According to this guy there are losers who can’t get any and losers who don’t want any. Therefore if you don’t want vagina, your a loser. MGTOW is mainly composed of guys who opt out of the dating game on purpose for justified political reasons. This article wants to ambiguate and shame those reasons. Why? Because the writer is a mangina/white knight or feminist douchebag. #MGTOW
Losers who “don’t want” any, rather. In quotes.
If they truly don’t want any, they’re asexual or gay.
I’ve joked with friends that life would be 100x easier if I WAS gay, in this day and age. Endless sex and automatic immunity/true ‘privilege’
For now, at least.
Apparently, the writer of this article is too ignorant and as someone wisefully described you as a white knight/simp to understand this concept. You argue like a woman ( feminazi liberal) with typical female shaming tactics which is found on the No Ma’am website. Men, don’t want to sleep with std ridden whores. If you paid any attention to any of those men that you mentioned. All of them specifically talk about not falling for whores, exposing the lies of feminism and self improvement as a man. Validation by sleeping with whores doesn’t make you a man!
When I come in from work I like to put on some music, browse here and a few other sites, read a book, make some food, make sure everything is ready for the next day, etc. That’s before I do any hobbies/interests/maintenance of property, vehicles, etc.
Unexciting, maybe, but the point is, this is is all ME. I don’t particularly enjoy trying to chat up women.
Yes, I have had sex and yes I enjoy it immensely. But being a true MGTOW doesn’t leave much time for chasing tail OR the activities that ‘losers’ do.
I certainly wouldn’t start a blog about my day-to-day life under the MGTOW heading. It’s just what I do.
Thanks for the immense laughs!
This article is a riot!
You may as well add “if you masturbate you’ll go blind”!
…and your palms will grow hair!
MGTOW is gender suicide.
If you think MGTOW is gender suicide, try getting married.
Good idea. Never breed. Let your line die out. A more perfect world for feminism.
All those men who manned up and bred in the past didn’t seem to stop its rise
Nope, there’s gonna be some sort of armed fighting here in the good ole USA. Hopefully, most of the feminists will be killed off in n the fighting.
You sound angry Lawrence. Do you have kids?
Here is a tip. Look for the most virtious woman you can find, marry and breed. Be prepared to travel long distances and learn a foreign language though.
Too young for them (under 27). But really if you’re just going to live life as a hedonist and let your line die out—you are certainly going your own way—I would find it difficult to consider you a man.
You think you are too young for kids at 27? Hmmm.
“—I would find it difficult to consider you a man.”
Living under your own terms and conditions is what makes a man. Refusing to obey the societal norms and conditions that keep you a servant to the whims of others, who benefit from your demise, is what is expected of you.
Regarding you comment “your line dying out”– you should read more comments from the men dragged through family courts. I woman can get you locked up on her false testimony alone. I know more than one. You may love your children and they you, but unfortunately there is a whole “unjust” system that back the whims of the mother. The courts might acknowledge that you have rights as a father, but they will never enforce them. Never. I would leave it to the individual if fatherhood is still desireable under those circumstances and the present degradation of western women.
Getting Married
I had the interesting experience of waiting to give a deposition, and got to wait in the probate court session that morning. I was shocked at how many guys were there who were asking the judge to modify (suspend) the child support order of $18/wk so they could get their driver’s license reinstated. (In my state, past due child support results in a suspension of your driver’s license.) These guys were so bad off, that they could not afford the $18/wk. Of course, part of the problem is that without being able to drive, it was probably making it hard to get any job.
It was truly frighting to watch how beaten down they seemed to be.
Even worse were some of the contested situations. One guy was driving from Maryland to Massachusetts every weekend to be able to see his kid because his wife decided to move from MD to MA. He had to stay in MD because his job was on a HB1 visa, so he couldn’t just change jobs. I wouldn’t be surprised if at some point he just says F it, and returns to his home country; at which point his ex wife will be totally dependent on the government for support.
The best part of that situation is that my tax money was helping her stay in my state, hundreds of miles away from him, and help ‘run him into the ground’.
You should see guys making over 100K not be able to fill their gas tank to go to work. That’s worse than the poor one. At least he doesn’t have to work that hard and drop dead of a hearth attack at 45 yo for nothing.
That’s also bad but a much easier situation to be in as you can always scale down your lifestyle to accommodate. The guys at the bottom are truly fucked.
Between the IRS and the ex, 70% of your income is being confiscated. 30K is borderline poor. At least where I live…
Wow, just wow. I can’t even
I have a feeling a lot of those sedentary virgintow guys who mouth off to me on the internet wouldn’t have the balls to say that shit to my face…
Why would they need to? The whole idea is to leave you to your own thing. Picking a fight with a dick leads nowhere and is best left to those who find meaning in being a dick.
The whole point of going your own way is to do things your way. Enough with the condescension. You sound like the bickering whore I spoke to today who didn’t like me ignoring her.
Anyway, it’s fun to be a MGTOW on teh interwebs, gosh, what would I do all day if not for this?!
I think you’re referring to the extreme forms of MGTOW which do not engage with women at all, and sometimes even “ghost” and drop out of society. I’d agree that this is a bit crazy but I consider myself a more moderate MGTOW in that I live my life the way I see fit and not according to other’s expectations. I still date and have an active social life. I just choose to chart my own path which isn’t the traditional school>work>marry>breed>die model.
You know what? even tho I agree with your definition of MGTOW and think of them as lonely virgins, the only argument you give is this:
“Even the most Instagram-obsessed, passive-aggressive, narcissistic Millennial girl desires a man to take her.”
…and I absolutely disagree with it.
Women nowadays want their iPhone, their privileges, and nothing more.
Well she wants a man to take her for a good time, not a long time. After she marries and divorce-rapes him, she will be in a much better financial position to afford iPhones and other privileges. That’s what the writer means.
“Women nowadays want their iPhone, their privileges, and nothing more.”
Their privileges are subsidized by men even though the don’t acknowledge or realize it.
My friend, I think you’re missing a crucial point point: each generation has its own fight:
* 40+: the generation the awakening. Thanks to cheap travels to third word ‘patriarchal’ countries, these guys understood how badly feminists have fucked men since the 1960s. Most MRAs are in this group
* 30+: the protest generation. These guys just don’t see the point of interacting with western women even for sex. Your typical MGTOW is just there
* 20+: The Apocalypse Now generation. These guys will have to cope with the decay of the west coupled with the rise of China, Russia and Muslim fundamentalism (not just ISIS but also Iran and Saudi Arabia).
I am in my mid-30s and I wouldn’t touch a western woman to save my life. Compared to women from traditional countries, they are just repelling. MGTOW is just the way to go for MY generation.
The reality is that as frayed as relations between the sexes are, men and women still fundamentally want to be together.
Not sure I agree or disagree with the rest of the article, but this part is true. No matter what happens, deep down in everyone’s DNA, right next to the parts that control breathing and eating and sleeping is the part that directs you to find a mate and mate with that person. To deny that endlessly is nearly impossible, and quite honestly, unhealthy.
In some cases, MGTOW is a perfectly rational response to a completely screwed up world, but it’s never a permanent solution. At best, MGTOW is temporary, giving a man room to regroup, work on himself, and improve his life, but the reality is, every single human wants the same thing, and that thing is not being without a mate forever.
Room to breathe, then back in the game. Good point mate
By the way.
If MGTOW is such a small, fringe movement that will die out like the New Coke, then why invest the time to write about it?
Ooooooooo gotcha there!
MGTOW won’t die out. As Roosh said, MGTOW will enjoy a steady stream of men who have recently been divorce-raped. They will stick around MGTOW for awhile and eventually go ghost. Then they will discover neomasculinity.
Everyone should have a look at how “MGTOW” grows according to Google Trends. The Western governments are in serious demographic trouble, which they will continue trying to solve by mass immigration from the 3rd World, since attracting qualified immigrants from other Western countries is a zero sum game for the West as a whole.
Totally correct. Incel MGTOW is not MGTOW. It is really just the same thing as the fact acceptance movement.
MGTOW as represented by a man with a decent notch count, but who is getting older (45+) and finds women to not be worth it, is a different matter.
I don’t follow the MTGOW movement so I don’t exactly know what it really is. Because of that I”m going to point out a phrase in your text which is completely ignorant and made me question the validity of the whole article: “[…] Both libertarians and VGTOWs ignore that humans are fundamentally interdependent, […]”. You are just wrong and can’t criticize something that you don’t know. One of the main points of libertarianism is the emphasis on voluntary ASSOCIATION. What would be of the whole idea of free TRADE if they’re ignoring interdependency? You just went full retarded on this one.
On the bright side, if the hardcore feminists, and MGTOWers all exit the battle field, that clarifies targets for those remaining in play. While I don’t encourage either perspective, the relative response makes sense.
There are going to be losers and winners in any lifestyle. MGTOW isn’t about giving up or not being able to get sex. It’s about finally recognizing the true nature of women and no longer being victimized by it. In my view, it’s almost the same as Neomasculinity, but with more selfishness. Instead of putting up w/ nonsense from a wife, one might consider a paying foreign serogate to avoid dealing w/ the nonsense of entitled western women. I personally identify as a cross between Neomasculine and MGTOW. Sandman on youtube has opened my eyes and to a lot of things. Roosh has too. They are roughly on the same page, but I think Roosh has not yet given up “the dream” of a stable family. I think Sandman has. I believe a stable family can be pulled off, but I question to what extent it has to take it’s toll on men’s health? There are clear stress-related disadvantages to playing lead clown in a western women’s circus.
“And despite their whinnying, the average Doritos-munching “migtow” would go “pussy worshipper” in a flash if a cute, agreeable girl was dropped in his lap.”
I would worship a pussy if she were nice, opened to me, sensible and not a cuntish attention-whore.
As for MGTOW, there are different types and subtypes (nuances etc.) of it as with any political or cultural movement. The author seems to be generalizing.
The difference is giving in to the urge to worship, and fighting that false fucker with everything you’ve got. 😉
“if a cute, agreeable girl was dropped in his lap”
I think with some experience that most men realize or feel ‘its a trap’. I remember that in the past, in such a situation I would think about what I could do to get her to like me; today my first reaction is ‘red alert, shields up, engage cloaking device, plot a firing solution and course away at max warp’. If you can’t get away, like she is friends of someone at work or a relative, then you will probably feel like shooting yourself. (Note that I said feel, not to shot oneself since that never makes things better.)
The problem is that if you can’t get away, after a while you start to find out ‘what are the problems’ with her because she will just not STFU. If you can leave, you will feel much better once you do since, with experience, you know the problems can never be fixed and you could become her problem.
MGTOW have always confused me. If a modern man would prefer to have little or no interaction with women I think that is their choice. Stay a bachelor. Work in a male dominated field, Keep only male friends. Fine by me. Just don’t expect your life to be very fruitful and happy.
First, it is sort of a juvenile “I am taking my ball and going home” response to the perils of the modern world when it comes to feminism and modern women. It is very unmasculine to just run away from adversary.
Second, good luck being able to actually navigate the modern world and avoid interaction with women. For better or worse, women are in just about every single aspect of life these days. Even if take up construction work or drill for oil in the fracking fields women will still be around you and in charge of you at some point in your life. If you have almost no people skills involving women you are going to come off as strange and creepy to them. For right or wrong, when this happens you are going to have at least several bad incidents that will most likely effect your personal and professional life.
Third, I guess you are still thinking “sure I’ll just be a general bad ass, fuck ’em, and leave ’em”. Yeah maybe this tactic will work for a few, but society can’t have large groups of men riding motorcycles, swearing off women completely except for just expecting to use them for their good time hole from time to time. If you got a movement that did this that was more then a very small blip on the radar, the government would make it certain it was really really hard to live your life.
Fourth, I take it you don’t want kids. Fine by me if men make that choice. But, if at some point in time you do (until science gives us babies incubated in test tubes) you are eventually going to have to find a woman. Yeah you might be able to also adopted, but that process involves a lot of women, takes time, and is expensive. Also, since you have sworn off women you don’t have a wife. Adoption courts don’t approve a lot of adoptions to single men in reality.
Fifth, to be a general badass on your motorcycle it generally involves usually you know leaving the He-man-She-woman Hater Club House and being in public. Almost no social institution is “male only” these days. You are going to find a lot of women at bars, restaurants, concert venues, clubs, etc. What is your plan then?
MGTOW seem to me to be more or less social failures who have decided to never face their failures and instead remove themselves from civilized society. They spend their days pining away about how life isn’t fair, women are horrible, and then play video games.
So wimmin = happiness, fruitfulness
Got it, thanks.
I would not say they are directly related, but if you try to avoid them at all costs you are going to find actually living life as you see fit to be difficult. That is just the reality of the modern world.
You’re right there, and I apologise for my overly flippant reply
Avoiding women
I started to notice that companies that do ‘real work’ (make something, such as manufacturing, and not just shuffle paper around, like a law firm, finance, school or government) and seem to run well, do not seem to have women in most (or even any) decision making roles. Some of the most messed up companies I have seen have women in charge (or men acting like women would) of things and were running them into the ground.
There’s a psycography from Benjamín Solari Parravicini, AKA the argentinian Nostradamus: “Lot’s wife will be again in this world. Her ambition, into punishment She will find disinterest and abandonment from men who will go towards the light. God”
I friend of mine introduced me to Nicolass van Rensburg, the Boer Nostradamus, but I think his writings are only in Afrikaans. Not pleasant stuff coming our way according to him.
“Men and women still fundamentally want to be together.” That would be why 30% of marriages in the UK end within ten years, and 70% of those divorces are brought by women. The re-marriage rate isn’t so high either. Add in the bachelor girls who avoiding marriage and children by “focusing on their careers” until they hit The Wall, and that’s around 30% of women who don’t actually want to live with a man on a daily basis. Just one of the many lessons we’re learning from the Great Social Experiment that got started in the UK in the 1970s.
Try looking at the statistics, and almost anyone’s real life, on the assumption that, actually, men and women don’t want to be together. Everything makes a lot more sense. What you see around you is not The Way It Should Be Gone Wrong. What we’re seeing is the transition from one state of social fucked-up-ness to another state of social fucked-up-ness. The winners and losers change, but the fuck-up remains the same.
You want to chase after the partner at the end of the rainbow, be our guest. Those of us born bachelors will happily take what we can get by way of temporary female company, if we can see anything we like, but she ain’t hanging her skirts in my wardrobe and leaving her tampons in my wastebin. These here are my digs, where I return for peace, quiet, and Sons of Anarchy.
As for responsibilities and contribution? Get a job. Pay your damn taxes. Income tax, VAT, Council tax, plus customs, duties, National Insurance and other levies and imposts, and that’s 40% of your salary. You have now met all your responsibilities to your economy and society. Go off and have fun.
MGTOW is just a brand name. The aim is living with as much independence, dignity, fun and improvement as we can.
The 16 hour work week tax credit claimers thank you for your support.
Glad I’m making your life easier. Have another spliff on me.
Come on I thought Brits invented sardonic irony! (Plus you really think a single white working male with no kids would qualify for a single ha’penny? 😉
This article is pretty silly at best, especially that “comic” about male virginity. MGTOW is not an “I can’t get women” movement and honestly, I didn’t start getting into MGTOW until I learned how easy it is to get sex. It wasn’t until then did I realize I was a pussy worshiper that was exerting all my effort into getting sex.
The drive for sex is unproductive for men, it’s even destructive. It leads to stress, frustration, and depression. I have a close friend who spends damn near 100% of his time working on his career. He has no time for chasing tail. He’s a virgin and he’s 26. Everybody he knows loves him, super popular but just has no time to chase tail. He’s depressed because of his failure to meet social pressures of fulfilling his own sexual desires. Just think about that, a successful man who has his life in order is completely depressed because he hasn’t fucked. He’s not even incapable of it either, he’s not a bad looking guy. If he could embrace MGTOW, his life would be better.
The point of that story is that MGTOW is not “I give up on sex” but it very much is “Sex doesn’t define me”. So in all, your perception of MGTOW doesn’t really mean a damn because you’re just wrong.
Are there bad apples? You know probably. But there’s bad apples in every bunch. If you say we can’t have something because *some* will be bad apples, well that doesn’t leave you with much in life.
He needs to see a pro.
He does. Makes him feel better for a few days then he’s miserable again for a month until his next visit.
Men Going Their Own Way defies description by definition. If every guy is going his own way, each way will be unique to each guy.
When I dabbled in BDSM, they always said “You define your kink. Don’t let it define you” Basically saying that you don’t need to make adjustments in order to fit under a certain label. Just do whatever the fuck you want, and don’t worry about the labels.
That’s what MGTOW is to me. Men doing whatever the fuck they want. In my mind, all you have to do is not be married or live with a woman, and this can be immediately accomplished.
I am going my own way. I am doing as I please.
That will never mean that I am sexless. Who the fuck actually wants that???
srsly
I think the OP has done a disservice by asserting that since Omegas/incels are now identifying as MGTOW as a cover, that MGTOW identifiers are to be ridiculed, rather than for allowing the idea that many/most MGTOW types do not merit this vilification.
Further, did the OP not consider that even now, a man right here in the suburbs could go sexless voluntarily, for spiritual purposes? Without being an actual Monk?
C’mon, man.
ALSO, Admins: The popups here are getting too aggressive. I can’t even close them out, and they look like nasty viruses. I know this site needs to make money but if the ads continue like that, I will have no choice but to avoid ROK.
I tried to define my kinks and ended up having to use the Wingdings font. :/
I am new to this site, a commentor at Ace of Spades mentioned ROK, but I think the whole MGTOW depends on what you want to take out it Matt. I like the self improvement threads and anything regarding literature, politics and history, but a few of the commenters here themselves are worth coming to read. I support the idea of becoming better men as it leads to becoming better fathers/ husbands through continious improvement and a healthier society overall. JMHO.
When you have to sell neomasculinity (clown game in another form), you just have to make fun of the real threat to your bottom line (MGTOW).
MGTOW is the rejection of the power of pussy. It also does not require seminars or books.
“Failed at life,” huh? So we’re into making sweeping, feminist-style statements now?
I’ve loved most of the articles that I’ve read on Return of Kings, but when I encounter one that concerns what you guys love to call “game,” I wonder why it doesn’t seem to have occurred to anyone that you’re making yourselves slaves to women. Usually strangers, at that. Why? I love being single, but honestly…do you really find it that hard to get laid? I’ve never had a problem, and I’m certainly no Adonis.
Think about it. The way you dress, what you spend money on (i.e. trade chunks of your life for, at work), the places you go, the things you say and the behavior into which you force yourselves are all geared toward gaining the approval of women you don’t even know, so that one of them might consent to having sex with you. Kind of a sad way for a real man to live, don’t you think? It’s very subservient to women in general.
The RoK humor department consists of articles whose titles contain words such as, “What a Man Should…” The mindset seems to be this: One of these kids can rationalize the lifestyle he’s decided on (for now), and justify the purchases he’s made, by simply including the words “a man” in the title. As an example, note the recent article about opera. Are you kidding? Opera? Well, maybe it was *supposed* to be a joke, and I just missed the nuances.
Anyway, keep writing the great stuff, fellas, and don’t shrug off the use of proofreading. I’m sure I’ll continue to enjoy most of the articles, love being single, and use up the occasional night by meeting a girl and bringing her home…although, to be honest, as Roosh pointed out in a recent article, it seems like a waste of time on occasion, just to bust a nut when I could’ve used my imagination to rub one out, and then gotten on with my evening. But everyone’s different, of course.
The other problem is that MGTOWs become fanatically anti-Game, and also drift into junk ideologies like White Nationalism….
And black nationalism is not junk?
All race nationalism is junk. It is a haven for losers (of each race).
So what should happen to the nation states if their ideological basis (nationalism) is eroded?
Nation-states come and go.
Race nationalism is just loserdom. White Nationalism is 99% about omega whites whining that white women are fucking colored guys instead of them.
Black identity is just handout victimology and glorification of dysfunction.
Here endeth the lesson.
As much as that is true, it’s not so black and white (hehe). There is also wanting your tribe to thrive and when your tribe is too different from one another, it becomes dysfunctional and corrupted with no sense of identity (or a false sense of identity) and easily controlled by another tribe who has their shit together (countless examples in the present and in the past).
There’s also wanting to continue your line as a strange form of immortality which may be egotistical on the surface but it’s human nature and the sole purpose of every organism on earth.
White women clearly have no interest in doing their part for White nationalism. WN is a sausage fest..
Black women are just government extensions now…..
Nationalism isn’t really what I was talking about (because borders change continually), neither was it colour specific, for example “white nationalism”.
All pure-breed variants can have their place it’s just that everyone is being artificially mixed by design (through population shifting, real and economic slavery, hostile OR discreet takeovers, laws etc) which results in huge groups of people losing their natural identity, culture and customs. This has always happened and always will.
But like you said, certain groups of white people are seriously dropping the ball when it comes to retaining their identity but they’re not the only ones.
There are two sides to every story. Who is doing a dis-service to their genetic line and culture, the black guy or the white woman? The white guy or the yellow woman? The answer is all of them, regardless of the colours involved.
Hmm, there’s some rather well known PUA writers that be down with the White Nationalism. And … kinda like it. Nice counter-balance to The Narrative, as they say, the Alternative Right and some PUAs dig it.
Me thinks the author is dating this woman http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/leah-morrigan/modern-dating-frustrations_b_7538254.html Because neither of them have any flipping idea of what they are talking about.
I’ll take “No research required” for 500 Bob! Its women that typically NEED to find things out the hard way… but if a man wants to get married, have kids, etc then at 52 realize “OH ^%*@” thats his choice.
I recommend the 500 S & W, go out in style!
P.S. We don’t care that you call us virgins bro. This isn’t high school.
As if the MGTOW obsession with bashing tradcons wasn’t enough… here comes the Red Pill subreddit with this stupid shit.
Anyone else see the irony in Roosh’s posts about women not bringing value to a man’s life in contrast to Matt’s article?
http://rooshv.com/do-women-improve-the-lives-of-men
http://rooshv.com/women-have-reduced-themselves-to-sexual-commodities
What’s your point? Which is right?
You don’t ask Rollo what his point is.
Oh yes you do. His comment is not conclusive nor well-explained.
Worshipping any manosphere figure is beta, btw. They are just other men.
Simplest thing to do was going to his blog. His ideas are there for all to read. No worshiping, just common sense.
Irony, oh there’s lots of that around the manosphere. So be it. Let a 1,000 ideas bloom. I guess.
After reading this nonsense, I’m yet again reminded that dickheads like this “writer” are a big part of the problem.
I stopped reading this article as soon as I read the words “pack fudge”. That explains this author’s entire mindset and nothing else from him would more fully illuminate his thinking. Of the portion that I did read, it was the author’s own idea to compare MGTOW to “great religious movements of the past and present” so to then say MGTOW failed at that is nonsense, because, logically, of course, MGTOW did not try to compare itself. It is merely the authors “failure” to draw a comparison, one that he himself attempted. It’s not even a “failure”, but the author needed to choose a sharp word when he blamed MGTOW for what he did. Can you see the author’s emotion showing through? That’s how a man obliquely releases emotion, folks. The gist of what I did read indicates to me that the author likes to regard people as boxes of people, to compare and contrast as groups. Hey, I’ve made up a new word just this very moment for his pattern of thinking: this guy is a Boxxer.
I have lived a womanless life almost all of my long life, so it is amusing to read here that a MGTOW philosophy was “created” by certain people. And then I see another comparison he made, this time to some broad named Dworkin. Yep, that’s definitely a Boxxer talking. He has everyone figured out. A cult, ha! Of course, how else can one write an article in a blog if one cannot assign people their places!
Matt Forney is triggerin’ sum bitches.
The person that wrote this article really, in actuality, doesn’t know much about MGTOW. If they did research, and they came up with these ideas, then that means that they are also a bit THICK.
‘So it’s surprising feminists don’t understand that, when given the choice, women rather go shopping, talk about celebrities, and watch reality television than discuss ways to save the world.’
Shit… if all feminists were against this then I would have to call myself a feminist! Nothing more turns me off then to hear a fairly smart woman waste her time and attention on incessant gossip about crap, talking about reality tv (CRAP) and spending all YOUR money going to shop for CRAP! Unfortunately Feminism actually encourages much of this… or perhaps its just pseudo feminism? Maybe there is more potential for unlikely bedfellows then we believed possible?
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! This was a hilarious article. Does this man do standup? I would like to estimate that 80% of MGTOWs have had more tail than this guy. I know I’m one of them. You’d be surprised as to how telling a woman that I’m better than that gets them to try and change you. Even using sex during that attempt.
Matt Forney is a tradcon who hates MGTOW for taking the red pill and walking away as opposed to taking the PUA route and eventually getting married. I could get mad at this delusional pathetic pussy-begging retard but just… no. I don’t even want to point and laugh at this degenerate like I would normally do :
RoK has a vested interest in shaming MGTOW and promoting this “neo masculinity” garbage.
Follow the money.
yeah, read rollo’s take about the neo masculinity stuff..
Can you post a link?
This is one of them, but not the one I was looking for.. can’t find it handy. Either way, I believe there is a rift happening within the sphere right now. Maybe it’s a good thing, maybe not but as the article says, roosh is taking things in a direction where exclusion is one of the main undertones…
http://therationalmale.com/2015/05/25/changing-your-programming/
Yeah I’m noticing some weird changes and divides too. A lot of infighting too. Thanks for the link!
PUAs are fake. mgtows are real and not the other way around. PUA is a way to quick sex through deception, second is a way of life through conviction.
Game is not ‘deception’.
Rather, MGTOWs are very needy, as whenever even an average woman gives them any attention, they get all giddy and tingly.
I never said game. Game is all encompassing. I said PUA. That’s only a small part of game. Learn the lingo.
MGTOWs do know how the game is played. That’s what’s missing here.
Keep telling yourself that, beta fuckboy.
I don’t think he is. He just doesn’t know any better. It takes an extremely long time and/or a very traumatic event for one to see passed game and stuff.
If you saw the women I’ve ignored or rejected my entire life since I was 15 you’d lick your own ass in repentance. Fucking SIMP.
Yeah, you’re the wizardiest of everybody on wizardchan and Forney is a normalshit. Got it.
Hey Matt Forney. Author of this piece of shit. Remember ME?? I was a very popular commenter here – before I created MGTOW.COM. A recent ROK reader left me a comment here saying “Tom you’re a fucking legend” just 4 days ago. – and he left it TWICE – some 15 months after I commented under the ROK thread entitled: “5 Pieces of Advice for Men Who are Tired of Being Beta”.
I also have receipt of a comment from a reader here thanking me for “changing his life”. End quote.
I have offered to help ROK and Roosh with his website and responded to your ad you placed for website assistance. So you should be a little more polite. You have no fucking idea what you’re talking about. We don’t even need to compare notch counts either. That would humiliate you too much. Thank you.
Seriously. How are you MGTOWs any different from the wizardchan crowd?
Seriously? OK, seriously: We SAVE LIVES.
you should comment here more often
Lol you sure needed to prove to everyone that you’re great. Congratulations, creator of some site with people who share the same views as you.
Go away, asshole.
Yes so lets keep them marginalized to help persuade more of them decide to strike out against society with violent outbursts or join ISIS .
I will pretend I didn’t read this.
Comment of the day.
Thank you.
Lame. Try again Matt.
What is with the alt-right eating it’s own? I’m not a MGTOW guy myself, but maybe instead of focusing on bashing those guys, and instead of those guys focusing on bashing Roosh, and instead of the ROK forum guys focusing on bashing Heartiste, and instead of the MRA guys focusing on bashing the PUA guys, and on and on, we should ALL be focusing on bashing feminist, SJW’s, and Cultural Marxists? THIS is why we’ll never win. We can’t stop tearing each other down long enough to focus on the real enemy.
I view all the bashing from a different stand point. It’s how sausage is being made. It’s men exchanging/debating/comparing/discarding ideas, and I think it’s a normal process as long as the tone is civilized and logic underpins it all.
But what do think it’s going to accomplish? Other than dividing us, and demoralizing our natural allies? I don’t have a problem with discussing competing philosophies and ideas, but this (like so many other articles I’ve read in the manosphere) is nothing more than a hit piece. If you’re going to write a hit piece, why not direct is at the REAL enemy? Okay. MGTOW’s are a bunch of socially awkward virgins, addicted to porn and video games. So what? What did you just gain by pointing that out? You simply broke down what was already a small group (men opposed to feminism) into even SMALLER (and therefore less powerful) groups.
The manosphere needs to drill into their heads the phrase “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. Until they do, I’m afraid we’re destined to fight a losing battle.
Have you read “Understanding Women” by Ben Goode. It was written in the 1990s and was considered insightful back then.
How far we have come is because he fought and let only the strongest ideologies live. Compare this to SJWs who always get along no matter how bad an idea is. Trans-ableism.
You’ve dedicated nearly the entire blog to cover a subset of MGTOW, called TFL (True Forced Loneliness). That’s like calling all feminists fat lesbians, and totally ignoring the hotties. The other subset of us MGTOW, have been married (me, 2x) and have kids (0 here) and have had plenty of pussy (me, 50+ different women, 3-somes, more-somes, pussy is a less frequented thing for me now). I’m 44 now and most of my life have had pussy on speedial.
Next time, know what you’re talking about… and at least say you are talking about the TFL subset of MGTOW.
As I’ve got only 3 items left on my bucket list (1/2 my age, brazilian, and colombian chicks) I’d say yes, I prefer gaming, working on the house, hell even yard work more than putting up with women’s shit.
TFL is not a subset of MGTOW. Last time I checked the TFL idiots absolutely hate MGTOW.
Perhaps then a subset (not all) of TFL identify with MGTOW. There’s been a few MGTOW who have said they are unable to get women. That leaves plenty of other TFLs who aren’t MGTOW.
Who made the author the authority on masculinity?
Seriously. You actually took the time to sit down and make the “you can’t get laid’ argument. It’s this kind of vagina worship which causes factions like MGTOW to exist. You don’t measure a man by his skills, accomplishments, productivity, etc. Nah, bro. It’s all about how many times he has risked pregnancies and STD’s.
This is ironic from this site because feminist try to connect gender tragedies to the PUA community. Now, you “alpha males’ are using the same tactics on other men. C’mon, mane.
Do some of their members have trouble with acquiring vagina? Sure. But, to label the entire community based on a few is just intellectually dishonest.
Adult men using shaming tactics towards another man’s dick? I have to give you the side, homie.
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I wasn’t sure if he’d be able to pull it off with this subject, but I should never have doubted him: Mr. Forney has stayed true to form and found a way to equate even MGTOWism with Marxism.
Now all I need is calls for senseless violence from the usual crew of commenters and my reading shall be complete.
P.s. I know a MGTOW and he has two kids. The “virgin” generalization is tenuous at best, although I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a higher than average percentage. So go ahead and shame them if it makes you feel better. One of the regular commenters right here on ROK wrote just the other day about how society delights in ridiculing lonely men (people). So nothing new here.
“how society delights in ridiculing lonely men”
Yeah, make the useful idiots think the only thing missing from that lonely man’s hands is a rifle and you can easily get him lynched. Oldest trick in the book..
“The reality is that as frayed as relations between the sexes are, men and women still fundamentally want to be together”
Yes, but on whose terms. The point that PUAs/Neo-masculinists miss is that the “want to be together” gets resolved at the bargaining table, but in today’s society men have no leverage. Women simple don’t need your masculinity, neo or otherwise. THE MODERN WOMAN HAS ZERO MOTIVATION TO BE OR DO ANYTHING A MAN WANTS.
Where are the mass of PUAs who have gamed chicks into becoming “good little women.” Hell, your own game-master Roosh can’t even do it. It won’t happen because the environment has changed. The only thing that you guys have to hope for is that the shit will hit the fan and the women will come running back. Guess what, when that happens, you get shit all over you too. Even if there is a collapse, once everything gets fixed, we end up right back here.
Mgtow recognizes the challenges of modernity, and is an adaption to succeed in this new environment. Live for what you want, not for what women or society wants.
“Live for you, not for what women or society wants.”
Enough said
One thing I’ve noticed, and I’m not trying to insult anybody, but the intellectual capacity of the solid mgtows is way above average, I would venture to say top 10%. Their arguments are clear, logical and cold.. Also, they are not attacking others in the sphere for their own views either.
You’re entire premise for this article is false. Most of the MGTOW’s I’ve talked to are not virgins at all and a few are still banging the shit out of plenty of women. They just refuse to get married.
Marxism is the forced redistribution of wealth and power from one to another. The crimes of unrestrained Marxism are many and deep. Marxism destroys incentive and innovation. No-fault divorce is a good example of Marxism. It was created by the National Association of Women Lawyers (NAWL) to allow women to easily divorce their husbands while keeping their husband’s property and income. As a result of no-fault divorce, marriage will become extinct. HyperGynocentrism (feminism) is Marxism on crack.
Unrestrained capitalism is no better than unrestrained Marxism. Why? Watch the History Channel special “The Men Who Built America”. Without strict government oversight, capitalism is a ruthless, mass murdering economic model. The crimes of unrestrained capitalism are many and deep. The recent stock, housing and job market crash were the result of unrestrained capitalism.
What’s the fix? There isn’t one. The only fix is balance – and humans will never achieve balance. The pendulum will swing one way, go too far, and will then swing back, and also go too far. Such is human nature. Welcome to all of human history – viewed in the microcosm of your lifetime.
When you drive down the road, how much of what you see was built or invented by women? Almost nothing, right? See how women are being hyped up into nobility, genius and hero status in the movies – yet represent almost none of these things in real life? Know why?
Tens upon tens of millions of men, the the past 40+ years, have been destroyed through the gynocentric institution of marriage. Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of those men, after realizing their financial annihilation, committed suicide. Their now deeply hated X wives went on to happily screw the next sucker in line.
MGTOW are the future. We’re not here to pander to women. MGTOW are here to realize our own potential – regardless of women’s negative influence on men’s lives. For every woman that opts out of marriage and remains single, another man is saved from divorce rape. MGTOW are here in the hopes that feminism becomes a reality – the feminism that’s really about equality – that is. MGTOW are here to see that women achieve true equality with men – not the entitled equality with which they’ve grown so fond.
Once upon a time, a prince proposed to a princess. The princess refused. The prince lived happily ever after. The end.
“The recent stock, housing and job market crash were
the result of unrestrained capitalism.” Um, no. The housing bubble was caused by the government naively trying to make housing affordable by forcing banks to loan to people who couldn’t afford it, buying those loans with taxpayer dollars, and having the central bank artificially depress interest rates.
Whenever you hear academics/journalists/historians claim that a crash was caused by “unrestrained capitalism”, dig a little deeper and you’ll find that they’re trying to cover up government interventions and trying to use the crash as a pretext for further interventions.
Remove the shaming from this article and all you are left with is a title….oh wait.
Funny, this MGTOW shaming sounds much more like an article in Slate, Twat Catalog or Cosmo.
It is the behavior and the effect it has on the feminized society as a whole. The herbivore men of japan are not traditionally masculine but those fellas are having a “masculine” effect on Japan. They are putting themselves in the drivers seat.
Its odd. There are 7+ Billion humans on this little globe we call home, and yet this man is insistent on attempting to shame us into joining the beta blues and get back to breeding. Why is this? Has he made it his personal mission to get MGTOW’s back in the pussy? We must be saved? Do we need to help push the human population to 9 billion? Rather I think he was simply bored and decided to post a safe column in a forum that would applaud and short stroke his ego. If you look at Matt’s history he has a penchant for sticking his finger in the shit and stirring it. Its his shit stirring gift.
Its a tad ironic that a group of men should be so vilified and hated for simply not bowing down before or relentlessly pursuing women. Hated for simply not playing the game. You think the game players and hustlers would applaud the reduction in any competition.
What utter nonsense.
MGTOW can be very threatening. Especially if it begins to cost certain people coin and/or followers.
If men truly become solitary there would be little need for a hobby site such as this. We’d be secure within ourselves (hopefully most of us are) if we can realize that not everyone gets the same trophy. Not everyone gets the arbitrarily ranked “9” or “10” female. But what we can have…or need rather is self respect and dignity.
What I do know is this story teller Quintus Curtius is saying is “perceptions matter”. Fair enough. But to who? I thought we weren’t necessarily in the business of pleasing others. Perceptions matter to those who you CHOOSE they’re important to. Everyone else can go fuck themselves.
By the way. Who gets to choose the featured comment? The mods..? The people..? The highest bidder? Who knows.
Coach, the person who has the top upvotes so far in this post has my vote.
Follow the money. All of these guys have products to hawk. MGTOW is more or less an organic movement. Neomasculinity is a future book, TV appearances and lecture tour. The manoshphere has become large enough for people to amass fortunes from it. Eric Hoffer is relevant here:
“When a mass movement begins to attract people who are interested in their individual careers, it is a sign that it has passed its vigorous stage; that it is no longer engaged in molding a new world but in possessing and preserving the present. It ceases to be a movement and becomes an enterprise.”
MGTOW must be nailed into its coffin so that someone can make a profit. Hence the hatchet job done by people who used to embrace it. Politics 101.
“By the way. Who gets to choose the featured comment? The mods..? The people..? The highest bidder? Who knows.”
I think you’ve stumbled upon something here! Maybe the gynocentric matriarchy is paying RoK to feature anti-MGTOW comments. Maybe Quintus himself is actually an aging female lawyer in her mid-30s, bitter that no one will marry her! How do we know that Roosh isn’t actually a bearded lady who works for the feminine imperative?
It’s a conspiracy, I tell you.
Thanks for your contribution.
anyone know any extremely rich guys who are MGTOW???
the ones who don’t complain about women being evil…but the ones who are getting pussy all the time but still refuse to marry and are enjoying their life the way they want to.
Leonardo DiCaprio seems to fit the bill.
The point of this article is understood but it comes off as shaming. I get what he means but the core of MGTOW is basically to live life on their own terms instead of the script that is handed to not only us but women as well.
I see no issue in that but I get where Matt is coming from as some take it too far as to not want women at all. Granted, everybody has there own choice to make in life I am not knocking that, but, when it comes to MGTOW pussy is still pussy.
Once you understand you can have fun with it. We are just not going to marry it because its a one sided affair. Its not about hating women or avoiding them. Its about doing your own thing as a man despite what others think. Not cutting yourself off from having some fun with a female for a few or even a couple months as long as she knows the deal.
Again, I get where Matt is coming from, but at the same time I don’t understand the need to shame MGTOW in a surface level attempt. Its like Rap lyrics. Its deeper than what is being said on the surface (Sometimes, and not with every MC these days but, you get what I mean)
Also lets not forget the jist of this article either:
Its not about shaming, MGTOW, etc. Its all us paying attention and giving it attention. That is the reason Feminism still has a movement going.
Its about getting us to look and pay attention it. It has no true value and meaning long term wise other than to pay attention to it.
This is not to discredit Matt;s article but, at the same time we are paying attention and commenting on it.
Matt and ROK wins in the end. Business is business. Not mad at it.
I respect the move always no matter what.
In its purest essence MGTOW is about making something other than a woman your goal in life. That’s it. Some MGTOW interpret this as avoiding women, others as enjoying their company but not getting too emotionally, legally or financially involved with them. Is it not enough to have the entirety of academia, the media and government against men or should we start piling on each other as well?
Men shouldn’t support each other merely for being men. That’s the same as women protect women just cos they are women(which resulted in flawed court laws)…. Im sure your movement would have a greater reputation if you denounced the ones who are making dumb, generalizing statements about gender and laying all the blame on everything else than themselves.
You see… if feminists start picking up the slightest scent of you MGTOWs making the work-place unfair to women again… this time, they will actually be in the right. All you’re doing is piling more wood on the fire by spreading a bad attitude of “men vs women”. Few people want to watch each other suffer. But those that do are often extremely loud…. Sometimes so loud they sound like 10 people.
You are confusing MGTOW with Roosh. Also, you’re a feminist without realizing that you’re one.
What a lousy cunt of an article written by a lousy cunt.
Even though I identify as MGTOW I still see this article as a step forward for the manosphere as a whole. We should branch out and divide. Throw our fighting punches. In the end only the strongest ideologies will win. It could be MGTOW or neo-masculinity or both.
This is how men do things. Women on the other hand will stick with each other no matter how stupid their ideas are. That is how we get things like Trans-Ableism. Men fight until only the strongest versions of the strongest ideologies hold sway.
Back in the 1990s the manosphere consisted of a few guys who got together in drum circles in the woods to talk about their feelings. Books like “Understanding Women” by Ben Goode are all that came out of that. What has been built today is by taking the best arguments men had and playing survival of the fittest.
I look forward to the fight between neomasculinity and MGTOW because whatever side wins the manosphere will be stronger as a whole.
I disagree. Men who disagree with mainstream opinions are already outnumbered by a large margin. We cannot stand divided. We need to unite against a common enemy: feminists and SJWs.
I’m sorry you feel that way Matt
“Monks and nuns don’t take the vows because they’re angry at not being able to get a date, they choose their lifestyles because they want to become closer to God.”
—————————-
No, they’re ‘losers’ too actually.
“Despite their claims that “there’s no difference between the left and the right,” “migtows” almost never attack the misandrist, feminist left, even though it’s the left who holds all the power in the West.”
—————————–
I remember sparring with them back in Spearhead days.
“There both (parties) screwd! There both screwed! It’s over! It’s over! AHHHH!”
Constantly! The same drivel. Over and over again!
That’s why I’m so glad that AVFM kicked them out.
The MRM desperately needs political representation of ANY kind.
All MGTOWers do for the men’s movement is stop MRAs from touching base with conservative politicians (the only politicians that will touch them with a 10.5 ‘ pole).
But my main beef with MGTOWers is that the whole philosophy doesn’t take into account evolution.
If proud men don’t breed then what kind of men will breed in their place?
If you think the manginas are bad today what do you think you’ll get if you breed for em?!?!
So you see it’s actually a very dangerous philosophy.
That being said I might point out that Darwin doesn’t discriminate between men who shoot their loads in temporarily sterile wombs vs. those that shoot them into their hands.
They’re BOTH losers in the end.
I’m looking at you Mr. PUA studly man.
Deep breaths, man. Everything will be okay. Just relax.
You sure are a whiny cunt.
not all mgtow are against having children. It is. simply a question of how best(ie safest) to go about doing so.
I would say that MGTOW and Feminists are the same…they aren’t truly enemies if their ideals lead to the same end state…a separation and a mutual rejection of the opposite sex. The greatest fear for both groups is that the sexes find a common ground because it would reveal their own personal failures.
While I am making comparisons I would also say that those who live the “game” lifestyle are no different than the women they despise. How is judging your self worth by how many girls you got into the sack any different that chicks doing the same with gifts/free dinners received.
Until you live your life by your own set of standards that truly benefit both your self and the people you value you’re just food for the bitches (be they of the female or male variety).
The entire manosphere is to some extent a feminist victory. PUAs satisfy the goals of the sex-positive feminist. MRAs satisfy the goals of the 50/50 feminists. And mgtow satisfy the goals of the gender neutral feminists. Only red-pill tradcons somewhat thwart feminists efforts. But with the on-going decline of religion, they are doomed to failure. The truth is, none of us have a choice. Not even the feminists. The environment has changed. We are all just try to navigate this modern environment. To that extent Mgtow, is the best plan of action. Regardless of whether or not it benefits some feminists.
A similar question I think would be “How is a male running back judging himself by how many touchdowns he scores any different than a female running back judging herself by how many times the ball is handed off to her?”
Einstein once said “A fool learns by the mistakes he makes, but a wise man learns by the many mistakes others have made.”
For years, I chased women. I thought there was something wrong with myself. I could never hold down a steady girlfriend. They always seemed inane and dull as hell. Fucking them wasn’t even that satisfying. They talked about shit so dumb it made my mind reel. Maybe it was just the differences in our gender, I had no clue.
But then one day I found MGTOW (Via Sandman actually, and while I don’t watch him anymore, I credit him for the videos he put out) and my life changed. I saw that other men were trapped in a cycle of endless pussy worship. What’s so great about sex? It feels good, but so does masturbation. Chasing women? Not fun, at all. I could have learned to play an instrument in the time it took me to realize the futility of sex.
Saving the species? Who cares, the Earth is overpopulated and we’re like a cancer ravaging the planet. If I don’t procreate, the planet will have one less shitty new baby mouth to feed anyway. And best of all, I can live by myself, hang out with the guys, and have a good time.
But sure, all MGTOW’s are just little fat virgins in front of a screen. I used to wonder why ROK had a reputation as a site for losers who only thought of pussy, and now I know.
In a nutshell, get out of the basement, improve yourself, engage the world.
maybe, yes, no.
This is all very entertaining. I’m not kidding, it’s been a fuckin’ riot. For example, RazorBladeKandy2 ripped into Forney earlier this year. I assumed there’d be an article coming on MGTOW for sure. You, you reading this, never let any of these vloggers and bloggers do your thinking for you.
I discovered the No Ma’am blog ~2002. Been going my own way since. I do not feel offended by the article. In fact, I agree with it.
Because I know it is not about me, or any original MGTOW – it is about MGTOW 2.0 a.k.a. mainstream (or POP) MGTOW; a think-tank for progressivists, liberals, and social justice warriors who felt betrayed by feminism.
With all this talk about “shaming” in the comments, it is easy to tell which side of the political spectrum the virgins come from.
Should be MBTOT (Men blowing their own tools).
Bahhah that’s so funny. What’ a lame little cunt you are. Jog on.
Hey you’re the one fine with being an evolutionary dead end and a consumer of trash culture “fighting the fight” the opposition gives two shits about. MGTOW are enablers for the opposition.
I’ve noticed that a lot of MGTOW videos have the top comments coming from homosexuals. The migtows envy the homo because the homo ACTUALLY doesn’t desire women. So they upvote the shit out of them and will defend the homo because, after all, he’s just “doing it his way” too.
Once upon a time, getting into a woman’s pants/dating a woman meant that you had earned the respect of an elder man: HER FATHER. In other words, you had to have done something to pull that off, but once that stopped being the case, getting ass became more about being either a clown, a social miscreant, or worse. Grading a man’s value solely on his ability to pass on his genes is as outdated as bell bottoms. As any of us in the Black community can tell you, it’s not the guys who should be passing on their genes that are getting the most ass, or having the most kids. It’s the guys whose offspring will most likely cause the downfall of civilization that have a ton of children. By continuing to put that up as the peak of human existence, we’re continuing to give women power, a power that most of them can’t manage. When men could manage it, it was a worthwhile endeavour. Now, not so much. That said, I’m not excusing men who aren’t working on themselves, choosing to go their own way because they see it as an easy way out. If you want to improve yourself, do your own thing, and not be reduced to some guy at some club, trying to catch the attention of Little Ms. Princess, then more power to you. Being a man is about being comfortable in your own skin, and being strong enough to live your life the way you want, without needing validation(Or assistance) from anyone else. You want to play video games in your basement, that’s your business. You want to lift weights 4 days a week, that’s your business. As long as you own your life, I don’t give a damn.
Yeah and turning yourself into a peacocking trained monkey for the bitches is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fucking masculine ain’t it Roosh? You and the rest of the PUA bullshitters sell snake oil to desperate men. That is all you do bitch. And guys a re stupid enough to fall for your crap.
The problem with these sort of articles is that they assume
men and MGTOW as a monolithic group. If this rag wants to be taken seriously
then there needs to be a bit more in-depth analysis than these sort of Homer
Simpson / Archie Bunker generalizations. It’s no accident that all these guys
look and sound the same. They’re still invested, still holding onto the idea
that there is something here for them in the end, still waiting for that which
they think is their “birth right”. HAHAHAA………Fools! You will wait forever!
Ever have anyone tell you how to vote? That “we” have to get
rid of such and such. Who is we? Who are you talking about? That’s what I read
here. A vain attempt to get folk onboard to push a position that will benefit you,
the trad-con.
The truth is that ROK is trying to sell you something: “Neomasculinism”
what that really is, I still don’t fuckin know. Granted, normal masculinity is
under attack by feminist, but to try and repackage regular masculinity as
something different is just pointless sloganeering, similar to what feminist
occupy their time with.
And, really, who among you would you tell someone outside of
the manosphere that you are Neomasculine? They’ll then respond with a follow up
question like “are you gay?” or something to that end because it’s the silliest
shit they ever heard. But nonetheless, because it’s their (ROK) product they
have to come out against MGTOW, because somehow, it’s a substitute product,
thus, competition.
And furthermore, obsessing with other men’s notch count as a barometer? For what? How is that a measure of anything? How do you use society to measure yourself if society is toxic? If anything, too many men use their notch-count as a measure of their lives. If you lift, you know that outlook is not healthy by any stretch. The only people who obsess over other men’s sexuality are flamboyant homosexual gay men, but enough about Aaron Clarey.
This article was nothing more than a myopic hit piece trying to shame men into going back to the plantation. If I want sex I’ll go about it on my own terms without having to resort to demeaning and financially costly ways. The price of pussy just isn’t that high in a world where women are giving it away for free anyway. MGTOW in my opinion is a direct reaction to the gynocentric system of laws we have today where it just doesn’t make any sense to enter into a contractual agreement with a woman who can strip mine your assets and your kids away from you with zero accountability. Only a total loser would opt for that kind of one sided screw job.
Women are just going to have to continue to marry themselves, buy themselves flowers and gifts on V-Day and find other ways to validate their delicate ego’s on their own dime cause this man ain’t paying for that shit ever again. If you want to play house for a night sure, I can do that, but when the sun comes up I’m off to do what’s in my own best interest not yours.
As an ROK contributor, I would like to impose the “physical reality test.” I’m 6’2″, 240. I played water polo in high school and can swim over 2 miles without a problem. And if Matt would like to put his money where his mouth is, I welcome the challenge.
Come to Thailand and challenge me, buddy. I guarantee you’ll be eating blood froth for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, as well as most of your teeth.
If masculinity depends on what your views are, I would be curious to know what Matt’s views are in the physical realm. If I, a MGTOW for political reasons, could whoop his ass, who is more manly?
I suspect that Matt is a sub 5’10” wimpy male, a mere keyboard warrior with a Napoleon complex. Go on, Matt. Try to conquer me in the physical realm.
No? Well, guess you’re a fucking wuss. You’re lucky we live in a modern democracy. Otherwise I’d have you licking my asshole while I bang your wife and castrate your sons.
You’re a “little bitch” ten ways to Sunday. Totally ridiculous rant.
Stay single my friends.
What a load of trash that is. I like to read and listen to ROK and Roosh, but his sleeping with Paul Elam is what is responsible for this garbage. I am MGTOW and I am not no lonely virgin. Coach sums it up wonderfully. MGTOW is about denying women the power they have over you. Lonely virgins looser types i bet have more in common with PUA than any other group in the manosphere. PUA’s want it and they’ll do anything to get it. MGTOW is about taking back power and focusing on you needs, and development. Once a guy is making money he can get ANY AMOUNT of pussy, whether they come to you or he goes out and buys them. Pussy has no power NONE, because its so plentiful. PUAs and MRA still overvalue pussy. MGTOW overvalues himself, and by doing that he will get pussy. ONLY RULE – NO marriage and NO Commitment.
What we need are WNGTOW – women NOT going their own way. But what we have under feminism is just the opposite – women actually going their own ways. No feminist is unified in the end. Even if the WGTOW has the same mindset as the mgtow, they still reproduce but they discard their men, their ‘sperm donors’ like the preying mantis. They can’t rule so they discard their fatherless kids by the curb for the yellow bus. Control over all is then wrested by the state or whomever is chaired and makes policy. Feminism has always been about ‘you’ as in ‘you woman’ but control over them is ultimately overlorded by an unchecked higher authority. No woman can rule over or protect our species from outside or alien domination which is inevitable. We call out the counterfeit ‘queens’ among us. It is time for MAN to return to the throne.
Our species is patriarchal, not insectoid matriarchal with a queen egg sack and worker beta ants, collectors for the queen and warriors for her hive. That’s not what we are. We are tribal HOMOSEPIENUS ERECTUS – the greatest species to grace this ecosphere of wild beasts. Only WE humans have the upward mobility as TRIBAL MAN to venture and voyage onward beyond this orb. Even whales with their massive brains cannot venture upward. Only in their dreams. They are custodians of the sea obviously and smart janitors they are.
But under bitch rule our species can be knocked unconscious and remain shackled and earthbound for ages. We remain landlocked and part of a terrestrial food chain under matriarchal whip cracking bitch rule from within our own species. The spirit of the great bitch mother earth infects our females to rule over us. It is our rebellion against the great bitch mother that will unshackle us once and for all. We must never fall to matriarchy. It violates the code of our tribal patriarchal DNA. Mutated DNA defines cancer and feminism alike. We must get back control of our feral females and contain and subdue the pariah females that assume positions as ‘queen’.
It is rebellious to look beyond our confines, and of course our advancement, growth and maturation as a species is rooted in rebellion. We shit test nature, the forces and the elements in rebellion and we learn and grow as a species in this universe. It is OUR NATURE.
All hail the patriarchy!!
all hail the patriarchy brother
“The smallest unit of society is not the individual, but the relationship between two individuals.”
Interesting. I would state that what you are referring to here is what is traditionally considered the pre-nuclear family (Marriage relationship) the smallest unit necessary for the sustaining of a society. (for obvious reasons)
While some on the left would take this to mean you are supporting collectivism, i take this to mean that you define a society (which is itself defined by webster’s as “people in general thought of as living together in organized communities with shared laws, traditions, and values”) to be more than just the one, but rather a collection of (legitimately different) ones, the root of which is the Man and Woman, aka Husband and Wife.
Let me expand on this now.
In my best intellectual consideration, i think that when a society itself demonstrates the dynamics of legitimate diversity (as opposed to fabricated social justice defined examples of diversity) we tend to have a republic, where each legitimately different individual has their rights and privileges respected regardless of the totalitarian will of the uniform progressive majority(ies)
When society however demonstrates the intellectual stagnation of fabricated diversity (which must then be artificially protected through law in order to survive) we tend to have a democracy, where fundamentally uniform philosophies rather than legitimately different individual people are protected, and usually at the expense of the latter.
The latter would explain the existence of homosexual special class status, race and gender related affirmative action programs, and so forth.
It’s quite obvious which type of society we find ourselves under now.
As far as the typical MGTOW’s are concerned, they strike me as sexual anarchists; individual males who refuse to acknowledge the need and necessity of a proper and functional society and the mutually beneficial relationships (between Men and Women) it consists of. They would much rather engage in nothing more sophisticated than the self indulgence that comes with self masturbation and other self centered pursuits. In the war against feminism, they would be the leeches sticking to the body of the Alpha Man wading through water.
As you said Matt, they seem to believe that the best way to reject feminism is to reject females altogether, as evident in their collective and seemingly misogynistic (and anti society) philosophies. In this respect, they end up pantomiming the approach of the very feminists they disdain so much, ironically (and hypocritically) enough. And of course, if approached by a decent to attractive female, they too would show just how untenable that philosophy truly is. (just as it is with the feminists in regard to a decent to attractive male)
This is where they fundamentally differ from us. Whereas we hate the progressive tendencies of females (or WomYn as they are also described) and value the rare and humble WOMAN example (the one who understands her unique complementary relationship to the Man, best demonstrated in JudeoChristian religion) the MGTOW’s lump in ALL females into the first category for disdain and opposition. This makes them our side’s version of feminists, aka meninists.
It’s amusing how the left tends to use any patriarchy related label (MRAs, MGTOW’s, meninists, etc) to brand all those in favor of a patriarchy as the same, when the truth is much to the contrary.
Let me conclude my spiel with one last remark. As the bible says in Gen 2:18:
“And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him”
Alpha Men understand the need for Women, they understand the contributions to society only they can deliver. What we don’t accept is the inferior female version that does its best to try and marginalize us for the benefit of its own fragile ego.
Real Women for their part understand the need for Alpha Men, as well as their want and need for them. They also reject the inferior male mangina version that does its best to marginalize them for the benefit of its own fragile ego.
Real Men and real Women need each other. A true society can’t exist without them understanding this. The best society can’t be produced without their alpha contributions. Anyone who believes to the contrary is either a closet fag MGTOW or a typically useful idiot XX’er feminist who has drunk from the progressive kool-aid well once too damn often.
OP clearly has no idea what MGTOW is, while constantly shaming them as loser virgins. Projection much?
My Dad is clearly MGTOW in what I used to perceive in the negative sense: 3 divorces, 3 kids, and years of torment / anguish that lead to a failed career, then a hermit lifestyle, including a couple decades of abstinence from sex. It wasn’t until recently, after having a deep conversation with him, that I realized he’s relatively happy at this stage in his life as he nears retirement. Sure, I still believe if the perfect woman was to drop into his life, it would elevate his level of happiness somewhat, but we all know the odds of that happening is essentially zero. And he, perhaps better than anyone, knows the downside of female relationships, so he doesn’t think the risk is worth it anymore. So, I support him as best as I can (emotionally, that is) and let him go his own way without busting his balls. He loves his Harley, road trips, playing guitar, jogging, shooting pool and reading books. Fair enough. He was a world-class White Knight in his day, so I’m glad that his horse and sword have been retired for so many years, as it always brought him such grief and disappointment.
Ironically, in talking with him and agreeing on many points, I realized I’m also MGTOW, but one who is more social and successful. We have more in common than I previously assumed. Sure, I have more understanding and practice of PU techniques, am much more red pill than he is and have a more dominant / charismatic personality, but our core beliefs on the nature of women and their tendency to negatively impact the psyche of men is nearly identical. Who knew?? It would be real easy to classify my Dad as a loser, but he proves it’s never wise to judge a man by his cover. His MGTOW existence was kind of foisted upon him, but he has adapted well to it and derives many small pleasures from it.
Logical but stupid. That’s what the blue pill betas are for. Cognitive dissonance is more powerful than most would think. Maybe OP is jealous of MGTOWs because they can do without women like him? I guess we’ll never know.
I actually disagree with this but for reasons that never get much attention. I’m a mghow now but I’m 45 years old. I need sex perhaps once a week. And I don’t really romanticize women the way I did 20 years ago. So its easy for me to be a mghow; when I bang a woman I know all I am doing is discharging semen.
But is mgtow reasonable for a young man? I don’t think so. When I was 25….hell, even when I was 35, I really needed sex badly, desperately.
Could we please have the humility to just admit this? I see this subject arise over and over, and it results in the same old tired male aping routine. Matt Forney wants you to perform the old male bonding bullshit. “Hey guys, let’s be masculine, it’ll be AWESOME”! And we’ll talk about all the pussy we banged, really”!
Except we live in a different world between men and women, really. This article is bullshit, but I get it, because Forney is not yet 30 years old, so he gets a pass. For myself, in my own narrow personal experience, mgtow is just not realistic for men under 40, because they need sex from women something awful. Nonetheless, there does need to be some place for these young guys to go to, because the myth of the boss player pussy slayer is just that – a myth. A tiny, extremely miniscule percentage of men will ever be alpha. I’m old enough to know that even a captain of a 1000 foot supertanker carrying oil on the high seas making $150,000 / year can be a beta male, and under complete and total servitude to his wife. Be warned, gentlemen, mgtow is not your enemy.
in a pinch, that’s. what prostitutes and Ms palmer are for.
Matt Forney writes “despite their whinnying, the average Doritos-munching “migtow” would go “pussy worshipper” in a flash if a cute, agreeable girl was dropped in
his lap.”
Except, there’s a tiny flaw in his argument. Either they don’t exist, or those that seemingly do have a toxic inner personality waiting for the man to get hooked. No thanks!
As if I’m going to let this pasty-white doughboy shame me for not bowing down and worshiping at the altar of pussy. Nigga please
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/578397397786746880/r54wUbny.jpeg
One of the best articles on this Blog! Thanks Matt.
The MGTOW message of “going your own way, doing your own thing, living for yourself and not for the benefit or entertainment of women” is indeed an appealing one. However, if you look at the actual MGTOW community, the MGTOW websites, the YouTube personalities, etc, the reality of MGTOW becomes clear: it’s a movement primarily about hating women. It’s article after article, video after video, about how awful, selfish, conniving, and malevolent women are and how they’re all out to bleed men dry. It’s exactly as Matt states, they are the same as SJWs: whiny self-made victims who see persecution under every stone but do nothing about it but complain online.
I’m all about improving myself and seeking self-knowledge. I would never want to associate with a group or movement that’s sole focus is hating and blaming others for their own shortcomings.
The key is to go your own way and not subscribe to those websites and people who you don’t agree with. Your own way is YOUR own way right?
There are all sorts of MGTOW and no one should try to describe us all with such a broad brush. I try to stay up to date on mGTOW. It is growing by leaps. Many of the MGTOW have found happiness. Many have a lot of sex.
MGTOW seems more like a strike
It always seemed to me that MGTOW was more like a ‘strike’ for many men, in that there was no incentive for the men in it to do otherwise, so men ended up going MGTOW. I can see why some people, especially women, would be upset with the whole idea. If a lot of men ‘go on strike’, and don’t care anymore, there is not much you can do to get them off of the strike.
Women, especially over ones that are over 30, may have though there would be more time for an alpha or a ‘beta’ to bail them out or as a last resort for financial support and children. Now many of these women face the real possibility that a number of the men they thought would be waiting for them are gone, on strike, and are not coming back to the plantation. This is how it is going to be for the remainder of their lives. I do not see this changing. I do not think it is good, but it is what it is.
But if the only reason they wanted to be with these men was financial support, then the women deserve it. The way I see it, a corrupted man is no man worth spending time on. The way I have observed it, the MGTOW movement requires a specific sort of mentality that mainly works with buff guys who value wealth and body building….
So even if they hadnt gone MGTOW, they would have only been able to obtain girls without substance, because the girls themselves werent looking for substance but wealth. All male friends of mine are intricate, kind and have alternative hobbies and mind sets. My own partner is delightfully insane and he enjoys my insanity as well.
The best part is that money was never a focus in our interactions. Neither was body building or gender-traditional themes.
The men I deem to be of substance would normally not participicate in things such as MGTOW, as lots of MGTOWs do it for truly stupid reasons.
The guys who are of substance but choose to join this movement, likely do it because of the legal system, which truly is atrocious in america. But they are also the guys who dont have qualms with females as such, because they understand that if you make a law unfair to a certain group of people someone WILL take advantage of it. This doesn’t necessarily reflect on the rest of that group though.
Anyway my life is pretty awesome, so you mgtows who think women cant be friends with guys well… LOL!
You shift perspective pretty often. I don’t think you’re half as content as you try to sound. But if someone else isn’t happy it must be their own fault.
I banged with the intent of getting married until 26, married, had a kid and endured a wife-inspired “I’m not haaaapy” divorce 6 years later. Couldn’t make that bitch happy no matter what because a marriage and another kid later, she still ain’t happy. So at 32, armed with a vasectomy, my motorcycle and modestly decent looks, all through Bill Clinton’s Washington DC, I banged many, many, many women and never looked back toward marriage. You just can’t do it, fellas. TOOO risky. MGTOW OUGHT to mean get the pussy, don’t fall into lock down, don’t be conned or suckered into marriage. Go your own way. Make your dough, save it, give up on having kids, at least with an American woman. I was lucky in that I could raise my kid, I saw more of her post-divorce than while working my ass off paying off my ex-wife’s stupid spending before the divorce.
Starting out now, I’d make my fortune, bang the women and forget sharing a life with a woman beyond the bang. That’s going your own way and THAT is what scares the feminists. They don’t care about the average MGTOW maggot. They don’t want those simps anyway. What scares them is when men of substance go THEIR own way, that is, stay single and refuse to be locked down or go overseas for a wife. Nothing gives American women more butthurt that when men of means that they think should marry THEM instead go overseas, especially to Asia, for someone thin and lovely.
A lot has changed since 1992, in 20 years time women have gone from 90% acceptable, bangable body-size to 10-20% acceptable size. Women, especially the 18-30 year-old set have become so fucking fat from the outset that marriage to them is unthinkable. Young guys are just out of options given the women are so fat and especially, feel entitled ANYWAY. American women from 21 onward, given the tatts, the fat, the hair and slutty, crummy, mannish behavior are really the nastiest, most entitled and obese women and would have to be classified, as a gender, the worst women in the world. Feminism started it, but they chose it. They have no complaints coming that there are no men of worth that want them. Maybe soon, not even the simpering MGTOWs.
You dont sound like a man of substance.
I am indeed, Nikki. But by comparison, they don’t build women the way they used to. I fell for the fairy tale once. I’m 59 now, the build-a-life-with-a-woman fiction doesn’t matter to me anymore. As for your contention, it’s what women without a leg to stand on say. It’s your way of saying, “Man Up” and stop calling women on their excesses and stupidity as a group.
This isn’t about fixing women Nikki, the entire environment of ROK and a very few others isn’t about fixing women, it’s about working with what we’re given, especially the raw material of young women that young men of today have to work with.
Given that men are given one life and one period of time to get it right, those men that have gone before offer, here on these pages, many opinions on how to do that. We’d gather at the bar or a gentleman’s club for cigars and brandy and debate (kind of like a girl’s night out, except we don’t pee on the floor and the street), but women invaded all those spaces.
Now, if you have some notion that anything I’ve written is faulty and you can lay it out in rational fashion, I’m all ears. Otherwise, un-bunch your panties and waddle on out of here.
Do you realize how alike you all sound? Your speech patterns closely match that of Sandman, and I have seen many other adopt this speech pattern. it is quite interesting.
Anyway, I never claimed that either of you males should Man Up as that is a stupid concept. You’re all males, arent you?
Secondly, you’re making assumptions about me that arent true, but I detect this as the usual tactic of trying to super-impose anger/fear on your opponent. I feel none of these things. I really don’t think anyone will cry for you, specifically for having gone MGTOW. Maybe most people arent like me though.
In the end though, to many of us, you guys sound just like the countless of feminists who like to cry “victims”… I suppose that is my only problem with you peeps. Beyond the unfair marriage laws, and abuse laws, your MGTOW cry-fest has almost no merit.
Your almost impenetrable, circular logical though, is what fascinates me 🙂 I am sorry for invading your space on this site. I am really only here for the MGTOW ordeal which I find very fascinating due to the circular logic. The interesting abbreviations you’ve built up to dismiss any criticism. The derogatory language you have built up to alienate anyone who doesn’t think like you. Maybe this isn’t you specifically though. I dunno.
Anyway, the reason i commented on your post is because you claimed that women are scared when men of substance leave… but here’s my point: Why would we cry for someone who irrevocably hates us/sees us as destructive/inferior? I say good riddance. Even if such a man was the last on this planet, I still wouldn’t cry. Yet you guys keep super-imposing this idea… Maybe because you want it to be true. It sounds very much like “This will show them”… Or perhaps you are like the people who wish they somehow died so that people would finally feel what its like when they are no longer around.
You sound hurt, Jim… But you don’t sound like you have much substance, due to the fact that you had a bad experience about something, and decided to turn it into negativity and let it influence your perception into an irrational aversion to women. Many of whom would never have the intention to hurt you.
But this is a personal opinion, and you seriously shouldn’t care. I didn’t even think you would respond lol. But thanks for the reply.
Why do you criticise a movement you couldn’t actually be happier about? What the fuck do you want and why?
“give-up-itis” Wrong diagnosis. Giving up on something you really want is one thing. Walking away from a game that no longer appeals to you (mainly because it is fraught with excessive risk and no longer offers a sufficiently compensating reward) is another.
MGTOW is an idea and philosophy for life, not a group.
It is not surprising that the people who claim to “be a part of it” are all dickless posers. Think about the people who claim to “be a part of” anonymous. The same phenomenon is going on here.
You know you’re wrong here. The fact somebody writes an article does not change the truth. Find it out for yourself. Go MGTOW.
Datson H.
__
https://redmalehummingbird.wordpress.com/
One problem I have with MGTOW is that they swear of sex. Also females are just a part of life. Surely they are scandalous, but you will have to deal with them, not avoid them all your life. What I like about MGTOW is the creativity and the drive of the content creators. But the should focus their energy into something valuable for the long term.
As much as I am an atheist, I have to admit it’s the lack of religion (the rules and structure it offers) that created this rotting society we now have. Society needs strong families. That’s the only thing that can save us.
It is my job why to save a society that views me as a pack mule?
Let it burn.
But that’s your problem, not theirs…
That is simply not true. This guy explains it nicely:
What Feminists, White-knights, and females don’t understand about MGTOW.
MGTOW, an acronym standing for “men going their own way” is in my honest
opinion the largest (and coolest) wing of the “man-o-sphere”. One thing
I’ve noticed is that MGTOW runs into a lot of opposition from feminist
groups, “white knights”, and females alike. However, with all of those
attacks they seem to have one thing in common: a lack of understanding
of the MGTOW movement. So here are 10 things white-knights , feminists,
and females do not understand about MGTOW.
1) MGTOW is more of a philosophy on how to live life instead of a movement.
This is a very important one, a political movement is defined as a
organized social group operating to achieve a certain goal. MGTOW does
not operate in such a manner. At it’s very essence it’s a bunch of guys
who’ve adopted a new way of living life. They don’t seek to change the
status quo, but instead opt out of whatever society expects them to do.
2) MGTOWS are not just bitter men who cant get a date.
A lot of women think this is what MGTOW is all about. If this is you
too, guess what? You’re wrong. Some of the first MGTOWs were divorced
men. Men stuck paying alimony to a cheating ex wife who divorced him.
Men screwed over sideways in family courts for child custody. Then it
spread to men in marriages who were downright miserable with the way
their wives treated them. Then it spread to men in relationships that
were fed up with the dating world and how they were expected to act,
despite being taken advantage of by women. Some of these men have been
in abusive relationships. Then finally is spread to the young single
guys in their 20’s.
It’s not that MGTOWS cant get a date, they just dont want to. They’ve
taken a good logical look at dating, marriage, and they way divorce
courts treat them. At that point they decided to say “screw this i’m
out”.
3) MGTOWS are not social hermits.
Females seem to think that a MGTOW is some guy living his mom’s basement
who refuses to leave and live life. In a Youtube video called ”Dear
Men” by Alexanda Blue she mention that guys were isolating themselves
from society. MGTOWS don’t isolate themselves they just don’t conform to
society. They have friends, they most definitely have hobbies, they
have family, they have good jobs, and they have fun. Calling them
hermits is seriously missing the mark.
4) MGTOW’s are very content with their lifestyle.
They have good jobs, a lot of them have their own business. They have
time and luxury to pursue dreams and hobbies. Since a lot of MGTOWS
don’t have to support a family, a lot of their money turns into
disposable income. A lot of MGTOWS will tell you themselves that they
live very peaceful, orderly lives. Which brings me to my next point
5) Insulting or shaming MGTOW does jack squat.
People who dislike MGTOW really can’t seem to come to terms with this.
All the time you the see them telling MGTOWS to “man up!” or say that
they have “peter pan syndrome”. The reason why none of this works
against a MGTOW is because you fail to see things the way the see it. To
a MGTOW settling down means giving up all of your hobbies, your awesome
life style, and pursuing your dreams, for a life of monotony. Even more
so, “manning up” would mean entering in to a marriage where he could
potentially lose at least half his assets (car, house, kids, etc.) in
the event of a divorce. From a logical standpoint, trying to shame a
MGTOW into settling down is pointless.
6)They’re not all anti-feminist they just could care less about women’s rights, issues, etc.
Now, don’t get me wrong some of MGTOWS are anti-feminist. The rest of
them could just care less. If MRA’s and feminists were to have a debate,
MGTOWS wouldn’t even bother to show up much less get out of bed. If
you’re trying to rally a MGTOW to some female social cause, don’t
bother.
7) Alot of MGTOW’s avoid women all together.
Don’t like being catcalled in the street? No problem, they wont catcall
you. Hate being stared at the gym? Fine by them, they wont look. Don’t
liked being asked for your number in random places? Alrighty. You don’t
have to worry about a MGTOW doing any of these things. In fact a MGTOW
won’t even bother to look in your direction. A MGTOW will keep
conversation with you to a minimum. What people forget that this is a
double edge sword. Having a guy buy you drinks at a bar? Nope! Taking
you out to a nice expensive dinner and picking up the tab? Nope! Taking
you for a ride on his motorcycle or in his sports car? Guess again.
Casual flirting? I think not. Now I will mention that some MGTOWS do in
fact have girlfriends or wives; but the majority are done are single yet
off-the-market. Especially in a society where a guy in one false rape
accusation or sexual harassment case away from a jail sentience.
8) MGTOW is growing.
From 2009-2015 MGTOW went from being a obscure movement to the largest
wing of the “man-o-sphere”. Today, there a numerous blogs, forums, and
Youtube channels that are devoted to MGTOW philosophy. Do a simple
google search for MGTOW and see for yourself.
9) If you want to stop this growth you have to change what causes men to go their own way.
If MGTOW’s growth is alarming to you then you’re going to have to change
what causes them to go MGTOW. Which means change the divorce courts,
the attack on masculinity, the institution of marriage, social
expectations on men, etc. Things such as shaming them, calling them
“man-boys”, having white-knights attack them, and other methods will do
nothing to stop this growth. The problem people have with this is that
to a certain degree they are going to have to assign blame to themselves
(* cough* straw feminists). They’re are many honest reasons a man will
go his own way, just ask one.
10) MGTOWS are not afraid of being alone.
When I talked about MGTOW to a female friend, she asked “Aren’t they
afraid of being lonely ?” The answer to this question was no. To a
MGTOW, being alone does not mean being lonely. He may not have a
girlfriend or a wife but he still have friends, family, and his hobbies
to keep him occupied. A MGTOW has no need for female companionship.
There’s not much I can add. Excellent comment!
You mentioned something about divorced men… I believe, most divorced guys (the ones with two brain cells to rub together, at least) will go MGTOW.
Here’s what happens. A divorced man ripped off by the feminist courts, really has two choices.
1.) They either get mentally/physically/financially destroyed, never recover and ultimately check out not as mgtows, but down the path of self destruction from which they never recover.
2.) Now that they’re not only wiped out financially but also have a huge financial burden to the ex and the children, they MUST become extremely successful. They simply have no other choice. And when there is a will there is a way.. The MGTOWs in this second category are solid individuals in all respects, by being able to crawl out of the hole. Nothing will impress them anymore, future relationships are on their terms, etc.etc.
Excellent summation.
A tiny group of unfuckble dorks that act like hormonal women and blame society because they’re too pathetic to get a decent women.
It’s the men who truly go their own way, which have the most success — at everything. MGTOW is just another term for follower.
I’ve never seen a MGTOW not attack the feminist left. This guy is sooooo full of shit.
To me, the core of MGTOW appears to be: don’t get married, don’t live with a woman (which turns into de facto marriage if you live with her long enough in many jurisdictions) and make yourself the focus of your goals and ambitions. Are there MGTOW who are virgins? Sure. Some also have girlfriends, some just bang randoms and some can’t be bothered because they’re focusing on themselves.
RoK prides itself on giving men a lot of information on how to improve themselves. It doesn’t seem to make sense to me to belittle a group of men who have at large number who are doing just that. How could you possibly be upset at a group of men who’ve decided that since your average woman out there is a tattooed, obnoxious, vacuous, post-feminist emotional wreck that will never be marriage material that perhaps time would be better spent on things other than being yet another guy that fucked her. I can understand the point of men saying that they aren’t wasting time being part-time therapists, chauffeurs, bill payers, loan providers, entertainers and sex clowns all for the sake of banging women that are, for the most part, fucked up walking disasters looking for Captain Save-A-Ho before they hit the wall.
Ah… a group that often participates in belittling entire groups that arent them, now get butthurt when someone makes sweeping generalization about them and belittles them. The sweet, tasty irony :3
It’s all bad unless you do it, right? Just like those lying, scamming feminazis.
Found one of these MGTOW and he looks like the 20 year old virgin in the graphic. Oh wait I think that’s the author!
This is for all the guys making fun of other guys playing video games:
It seems you can be a millionaire playing (not even talking about making) video games.
And you can be a billionaire by playing basketball. How many make that mark or even get paid? 0.0001%. The rest, not so much.
And when was the last time you heard anyone making fun of Lebron James because he is a millionaire for playing basketball?
If you were trying to make a point by your statement try again.
Forney, you should spend some time over at the mgtow forums and actually learn something about what you’re trying to write about, instead of talking out your ass like you did here. Your article reads like something an angry feminist would write on jezebel, all the way down to the tired old “lonely neckbeard virgin in mom’s basement” that’s been trotted out a million times already, by better writers than yourself.
Furthermore, I would advise Forney and the rest of the mods of this site to remember their audience. Judging by a lot of the other comment here, I’d be willing to bet a significant portion of ROK readers identify or at least sympathize with the mgtow philosophy, and it will continue to grow and evolve, regardless of what Forney may think. The only difference is whether or not anyone will still be willing to listen to him.
So, I’m a loser because I can’t roll around in bed and get something? To be honest, my mind isn’t occupied so much with that sex thing. If a meaningful life for men was solely to bow down to women, chase pussy and earn enough money to keep that pussy, my God, life would be miserable.. Really miserable!
It is the men that has ended up in that situation who is the real losers!
So basically all men in history who reproduced are the real losers. Got it. Thanks for playing.
What’s in it for you if I go my own way?
It looks like the various factions of the manosphere are turning on each other just like those of feminism. I should have seen it coming.
The only “safe” relationship to be had is with a bottle of single malt. I love pussy, but I’ve learned to distance myself from the cunts it tends to be attached to. As for the gay option – that’s just gross.
At this point, I’d rather stay a virgin than give a woman an orgasm. Here’s my video on the subject where I actually do something you are incapable of Matt, humanize men: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVvr-omdDfs
The name is so vague so as to be meaningless. No shit you’re going your own way, who else’s way would you be going? MGTOW is just doublespeak when you look behind the curtain and find what looks suspiciously like a cult. Bernard Chapin and Rocking MrE were spot on about these people.
If I were going the way of some Cult then I wouldn’t be going my own way. Sorry, but I have to disagree with this article.
Brownie points for Forney if we can pry his lips off of Roosh V’s ass pipe!
This article is sad but may be true. Cannot judge because not MGTOW. I believe I actually googled MGTOW meet-up for my town a while back. Thought it may be fun to hang out with some dudes. If I remember correctly, it was kind of a gay group.
But Roosh emphasis on game is correct. If you just sit at home, a woman will never call you in all probability. I was joking with a girl at work. She told me she broke up with one dude because his idea of a date was for her to watch him play video games.
I think maybe these dudes should give themselves a shake. But on the other hand, if they have trouble getting a date, then maybe it makes sense.
Hate to give these people hell.
Both libertarians and VGTOWs ignore that humans are fundamentally
interdependent, with countless relationships—laws, customs, family
connections etc.—binding us.
Where do libertarians deny this? The anacaps, ok sure, but your average libertarian is actually a Classical Liberal minarchist. Meaning, that he values things like social mores, sensible laws that restrain the worst in humanity, and family. Every minarchist I know, myself included, values a constitution and laws and family.
Otherwise, decent article Matt.
I actually think it’s a beautiful concept.
The essence of being a man is living without permission. Being a man is acting, not asking or following. Achieve, without permission; reach, without permission; fail, without permission; learn, without permission; act, without permission and write your own story, without permission.
What’s more beautiful than a concept or rejecting societies standards and writing your own journey without anyone’s permission? The journey is YOURS. Your destination may have been far from what society set as a standard, according to others, you may not have reached “manhood” but in your journey, you achieved you goals WITH manhood.
As “Coach” said before: Everything is perception. Whilst it’s a good point to mention that MGTOWism appears to be a consequence of the aggregate of neckbeard virginism, it’s important to remember that the concept stands on it’s own merit. To point out followers of the concept in order to denounce the ideas is an Ad Hominem.
I think it’s quiote poetic, the ultimate form of masculinity, often resulting in the perception of the ultimate emasculation.
Somehow I still dont follow, the problem, as I see it in a partner relationship, including marriage, divorce and child custody, men dont really have a fair shake. marriage is not a contract between 2 equal parties, it is a very unbalanced contract in wich the man takes on all expense and obligation, while the woman has the right to all the fruit the relationship has produced. As a special bonus there are absolutely no obligations, that would be implicit in a humane agreement, such as a notice period, that would give the other party an opportunity to try to persuade it to change its mnd, or to offer a better deal, 24/7, there are organisations that will receive women and their children, will hide her from her husband, persuade her to get a divorce, give her legal support at taxpayers cost, in trial based on laws biased against men, heard by feminist judges biased against men. The mens rights movement seemed to try to find a compromise or appealed to the nonexistent sense of fairplay that they seem to believe feminists have. MGTOW at least has a simple solution that does not require a lot of agreement among members, definitely a more promising option than the current feminist appeasing wankeres in the MRA movement. There are probably really a few guys in MGTOW that would probably have remained vrgins anyway, I grant you that, and the solution is to admit we need the company of women and just forget about MGTOW and trust that in the second century of its existence MRA would be able to claim the one or other compromise from a totally unscrupelous self serving organisation such as feminists.
Fact is, it is in going your own way that you truly attract a worthy companion. When a person says they are MGTOW, but are obsessed with the thought of when next they will get laid, they are only deceiving themselves and going against biology, just like the feminists, but in a different way.
True MGTOW means you make your life mission your focus.
“The smallest unit of society is not the individual, but the relationship between two individuals.”
So that means that if an employer hires me, he isn’t really hiring just me (since I can’t be the smallest unit of society) but he is also hiring whoever I have a relationship with?
Getting a woman, even a highly attractive woman, into bed is not a grand accomplishment anymore. Women will fuck anything these days. The success of a man is not how many hairy, smelly holes he sticks he dick into. These Aaron Clarey, Roosh and now Matt Forney types still fail to see that.
“Women will fuck anything these days.”
Not true.
“Getting a woman, even a highly attractive woman, into bed is not a grand accomplishment anymore.”
It never was, you silly person. Sex is pointless. it’s like eating ice cream. Sure feels good, but not an essential part of living.
Having someone that enriches your life is the goal here… So if you see females as only something you get sex from and not as individuals who just happen to have xx chromosomes.
Obviously you will never find that, because if you see women only as ice cream… well you would be insane to try and bond with ice cream… -.- …
Females aren’t ice cream, no matter how much you wish it to be so.
Stop making these blind assumptions and wrongful accusations.
the losers are pua and mra.. not mgtow. i dare any one who read this to search SPETSNAZ MGTOW. I DOUBLE DARE ANY ONE .
I’d like to add to that Messenger Rising and Thorium
I’ll add Turd Flinging Monkey, Niko Choski and Paul Proteus to that list.
PUA AND MRA ARE JUST SIMPLY PISSING IN THE WIND. U KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN U PISS IN A WIND….
wow this is really going viral. I find the acronym MGTOW useful as a way of describing a relatively new lifestyle/philosophy that eschews political correctness and other societal norms to instead ‘go your own way’. There is a large ideological overlap between MGTOW and Red Pill, but the MGTOW choose a different, perhaps more introverted way of life. ‘Going your own way’ is about being your own man, about living life on your own terms, answering to no one if you so choose, but it’s also about empirical reality -a reality that makes meaningful relationships difficult due to the obvious biological differences between men and women. MGTOWs aren’t interested in dating not because of misogyny or because we’re ‘losers’, but because we don’t want to be dragged through the mud that other men have been dragged through. It’s just not worth the financial and mental toll, especially in a society that is still anti-male. http://greyenlightenment.com/in-defense-of-mgtow/
FYI, I’d probably read up on a topic before writing an article; always a good idea because then you don’t look like an idiot. No offence.
Yes. Even back then their gullible and foolish nature was on full display.
Smiley Face!
I deduced that, given your cartman pic post earlier.
When you get the chance feel free to share what’s going on, if you can do so openly here.
“they both deny the fact that men and women want to be with each other” Up to which point Matt? How many nerve wrecking and financially desastrous break ups and divorces is a man to go through?
People do get tired of women, their bullshit and their pussies. I’m certainly no virgin but after I spent the last 12 years with women I just feel tired when thinking about dating. I just want to be left the fuck alone and do what I want.
I believe you’re 28 right now. Give it five more years and you’ll feel the first signs of the thirst waning.
Whatever. Define yourself from the inside, and do not let yourself be defined by anything or anyone from outside of yourself. Your are here to live your own dream, not someone else’s.
The only reason why MRAs and puas hate MGTOW is that they don’t have the self-restraint to withold sex. For all their big words they will still endure boring conversations and dates with women,which they supposedly hate just so they can get their d*cks in some slut’s pussy.
Then they will also feel proud about it and post here saying things like “enjoy the decline” ,while meanwhile portaying themselves as activists and condemning MGTOW for not fighting feminists enough…
They way i see it they MGTOW are the ones putting their ideology above their urges and that is why they are hated by everyone so much.
Whereas MRAs try to reason with the illogical feminists, MGTOW know that the right method is marriage strike and not giving women attention. Soon sex-starved women will fight with each other and be forced to be more feminine in order to secure the much neede male attention.
At least that’s what would happen if manginas, PUAs and “alpha males” didn’t sabotage our efforts by being “pussy-worshipers” and giving sluts attentions while meanwhile claiming to hate them…
You sure now a lot about how EVERY single person, who you havent met, thinks… and their reasons for doing things…. Can you tell me the numbers for tomorrow’s winning lottery numbers too?
“You sure now a lot about how EVERY single person, who you havent met, thinks… and their reasons for doing things….” says the asshole pointing out that every MGTOW “only met the wrong kind of woman” and “hates all women”. You sound like someone who’s telling lesbians they “never had real dick”. You are a terrible person.
I don’t think the struggle is men vs women. It’s rather men vs a really shitty family court system. I really don’t think alimony and child custody were a problems for men prior to our little slice of human timeline.
Picture a woman in the time of Ghengis Kahn trying to rob her husband of his children and musk ox after he finds her effing in another man’s yurt.
Only a wicked society rewards the adulteress. Go thy way and sin no more, yes. Go to court and get some alimony, no.
So whatever MGTOW is or is not, it’s better than the risks of marriage in our current legal system.
It would be better if it didn’t almost automatically mean hating females who have no control over the legal system….
Unfortunately a lot of MGTOW men think 100% of females are at fault here… they fail to realize that government is composed of both male and female politicians… Of course politicians being politicians, they don’t actually care about the world, and only pander to the group with most votes.
Not only that, but mgtows themselves hold their own kind to a pedestal compared to men to who disagree with them. “Oh we are the REAL men. Anyone who doesn’t think like us is a mangina!”
They fail to realize that men who like females are just people… With great sides and flaws. They protect and defend everything a mgtow does, just because he’s mgtow. Of course I’m being drastic here… not all mgtows do this… But a large part does. Enough that this is the view outside people get from them.
Mgtows cant even agree on what they are about. Some mgtows feel it should mean that a guy simply respects himself… others feel its about avoiding females at all costs…. And promoting false “evidence” of how females are by nature, pathetic, dumb and irrational, and that they will never be more than cum dumps(now tell me that this doesn’t promote the idea that men are misogynists.
I really really hope that mgtow fades over time. Not because I’m a female and want them back… From my point of view, it’s good riddance. But I am really wanting laws to be less feminists as well. I find feminist laws to actually constrict my own freedom. I also find them disruptive in society. However.. Instead of focusing on what needs to be fixed like rational human beings… Most pro-male material out there seems to deteriorate into wooman-bashing speech about how females(all being stupid and all that) broke the system and must now fix it themselves.
What do you think this will do? Much of communication is sadly not about what you say, but how you say it. For someone like me, this is incredibly frustrating, because you can’t win by logic. In any case, feminists now have something real to point at and exclaim “HA! we told you!! Men ARE misogynists!! You shouldn’t listen to them!! don’t listen to their critique for it is just them hating females for now reason!”
And the result is just a bigger gap between wooman/man issues…. Each side getting more and more drastic, getting nowhere in terms of agreements. Unfortunately women have the upper hand. There is no equality. Men would do well focusing on real issues such as crazy laws, and leave their unfounded theories about woman-nature at home.
When you apply the nature of one member of the group to the entire group, you lost the argument from the beginning. I’m sure men don’t like being told they are all aggressive, lazy, rapists, abusers or only want sex.
Now, a bunch of MGTOWs will tell me that mgtow isnt even about fixing the system… because its too late, and they are the real victims so now they are “forced” to opt out…. But then it’s not really an issue of “mgtow vs anyone”.. but “people who ascribe as mgtow and quitting society”. But this too is deceitful. Because they don’t opt out. They are every bit as focused on society and females as they were before…
The few mgtows who actually just mind their own business are probably just far and few inbetween… I also assume a lot of them dont even hate females.
/rant ^^
Hi Matt Forney,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
Another moron attacking other men who has not earn the respect of those he is criticising and has most certainly not earned the RIGHT to criticise those he is attacking.
Yep…situation normal in the man-o-sphere. The circular firing squad is well in play.
I do not comment much on ROK any more. I have been banned on my standard account and so until I am invited back I do not presume my presence is appreciate or even desired.
However, there is no one I know who could be more accurately described as MGTOW than me even though I wear no labels, that one included.
Even though I do not wear the MGTOW label I am a man going my own way and doing my own thing.
I am an honest man of honour and integrity who stands for truth, justice and equality before the law.
Sadly, that puts me in a minority as small as 0.1% in the west.
The issue is not with MGTOWs, or MRAs or fathers rights activists, or any other group of men.
The issue in the west is with 99.9%+ of men who are GUTLESS WONDERS who would NEVER do what I have done.
I have the track record to prove my creds.
You don’t Matt.
Nor does any other writer here on ROK.
There is not another man I know on the face of this planet who has done as much as what I have done to secure the rights of men and boys.
If you think there is?
Then introduce him to me. I would like to meet the man and shake his hand.
The issues in the west are
1. 99.9%+ of men will not show a man the respect he has earned.
2. 99.9%+ of men will allow a woman to commit a crime against another man.
3. 99.9%+ of men are too gutless to be honest men of honour and integrity and to stand for truth, justice and equality before the law.
4. 99.9%+ of men are to cheap to help those of us who are in the 0.1%
The cowardice and disgusting loser behaviour of men cuts across all races, all groupings, all ages, are sexual orientations….the lot.
It is not “this group of men” or “that group of men” who are gutless cowards unwilling to secure their own rights or the rights of their children…too stupid and too ignorant to learn and too arrogance about their stupidity and ignorance to know that they are stupid and ignorant.
It is ALL MEN bar a very, very, VERY small minority like me.
After 7 years of talking to you men about these issues? I have changed my mind 180 degress from the position I took in 2008.
In 2008 I took the position that men were basically decent people and that in their ignorance and stupdity and arrogance about their ignorance and stupidity they were still decent at heart. All they needed was someone to show them the way to secure their rights and to live in freedom.
Well? I showed men the way. I delivered the remedy men were crying out for on 2009-11-26.
I even video recorded it and posted it to you tube later on when my children were 18 years of age.
And what did men do? From January 2010 to mid summer I screamed my head off that there was a proven remedy men could use.
I was hated on and lied about by the very men I had risked my life to help.
Here we are….5 years later.
And morons like you Matt are still attacking other men baselessly, just like men attacked me baselessly all these years.
So my mind has been changed by the actions of the 99.9%+ of men these last 5 years.
I am now thoroughly convinced that the committee of 300 is wise in their decision and doing the right thing in their decision to kill off 90-95% of humanity.
The men on this site and the men on so many other sites have convinced me, to my satisfaction, that the world would be a better place without them in it.
Should any man who reads this comment care to disagree?
Then show me what you have done, you who disagrees, show me what you have done with your life that you have made the world a better place for others by being in it.
Have you raised children to adulthood?
Have you saved the lives of men who are suicidal?
Have you risked your life to secure the rights of others?
Have you stood for truth, justice and equality before the law?
And if you have not done these things have you laboured to earn money and have you sent it to buy food and pay rent to those of us who have got the guts to do that you are too frightened to do for yourselves.
A man like me, a man of great achievements and great character rightly criticises men and you all lose your heads because you know I am right.
A man like you, a man of dubious character and no significant achievement, wrongly criticises men and it is considered ok.
The committee of 300 is correct.
You men deserve to die.
When you change your ways?
I might change my mind.
Peter-Andrew: Nolan(c)
I knew it was only a matter of time before the red pill movement would be penetrated by corporate or government operatives. Cannot have Men Going There Own Way because who will buy the mcmansions? Who will finance females outrageous spending habits. Women spend 80% of the money in long term relationships, yet earn less then men on average. They divorce the man, get 60% of assets plus alimony and child support and spend it all over again. When all is said and done, no one outspends a upper-middle class woman in the aggregate. But if they have no one to marry to, this is a serious threat to the system.
I work in finance and the reason so many department stores and clothing stores are mergering and failing and shutting down is because men are waiting longer to marry and women are spending themselves into bankruptcy. When women use to marry at 22, they had years to spend off a man’s money, now getting married at 28-29 to a man who is in his 30s, her credit is so ruined already the bank will insist the man get a prenup or the wife right herself out of the major assets (because she is so debt ridden her name on the mortgage would increase the payments too much). The result is women are losing their lifeline for spending.
MGTOW will come under increasing attacks. We are not just a threat to the female, we are a threat to the establishment, to major corporations. Why would a single male with a 6 figure salary buy a huge house and fill it with designer furniture and thousands of dollars of nick nacks? It doesn’t make sense, we’d rather go buy a small house with small upkeep and enjoy our money. We men don’t throw parties where we invite over the girls, we don’t have girls night out, we don’t spend money like they do. We buy a nice car and take care of it for 10-20 years and a beater car. The system cannot get us.
That’s true. In today’s consumerist society people who aren’t spending their entire income are shamed and mocked by the media
Yup, if you visit predominantly young female forums, you will see women complaining about men who don’t “Take them out on dates”.
They claim it doesn’t make sense because you spend more or as much at home then you do going out. You are going to spend $25 or more at home so why not just get the 2 for $25 at apple bees they say?
Well if that is true, why does it make a difference. See why does a woman want you to take her on a date? If anything she should be thankful you are taking her to your house and spending MORE money on her. She just disdains the fact that she knows when she is in your place you will ask for sex. That is it.
You take her to the restaurant, you lounge around after dinner, she is too tired, she got a text, there is an emergency, her ride is coming, maybe next time, there is always some excuse for why she can’t fuck you. Better she come to your place so you can line up several dates in a row and save money. You can make tacos for 5 girls in a row pretty easily and it won’t cost you more than $25, 5 dates in a row and increase your chance of sex. 5 apple bees dates going to cost you $125, and they’ll all have an excuse. You weed out a lot of dinner whores by inviting them to your place straight up and if they flake worse case scenario it doesn’t hurt. You are already home.
Kill yourself and do us all a favor.
>fat PUA dude telling other dudes about family values, dorito-shaming, et cetera.
you need men to want women otherwise no one would listen to you or buy your products.
Who is this fat fuck kidding? The only thing he’s picking up is two large pizzas and a six pack.
MGTOW for life.
I don’t see it that way at all. MGTOW is about not being brainwashed by the media and groups that exist only to promote agendas that separate men from their true nature. Sure, you’re going to get guys who can’t get women, or guys with pathological anger about women, but as a whole it’s about telling men that we’re losing our masculinity and what we can do about.
Early on in this my fear was that men would start separating into factions and lose the momentum with infighting and confusion. It’s too early in the movement to start bickering and we need use MGTOW or whatever you choose to call it to educate people.
And this single article so simply encapsulates why the Left is winning and the Right, like Forney, so cluelessly losing.
At least the Left is bright enough to embrace “No enemies on the Left,” and not turn on its allies and fellow travelers in the midst of struggle.
But hey, good job Forney. Let’s cut off our own balls and auto-castrate like the rest of the Right. It does make one feel righteous and superior, no?
why is this such a big thing. In my life here is my priorities. God, fitness, my purpose as a man, my income to provide the above, my self respect, then comes women which are last on the list.
Brill 🙂
okay the only question here that is important regarding the value and purpose of MGTOW is this: are you a MGTOW because you choose to be or a MGTOW because women wont ever give you the time of day? If you CAN get married (or at least, laid) at any moment but you CHOOSE to “opt out” of interacting with women (you’d rather spend your time and your money doing other things, traveling, hobbies, friendship networks, the internet, blogging, serving Christ, anything) then that is one thing. That is commendable, you are to be respected. If you are just a hapless, fat, short, stupid, ugly, uneducated, penniless, smelly, loser, who is likely to die virgin like the Simpson’s Comic Book Guy, then MGTOW is something to be ashamed of. You had NO choice.
I can totally see what you mean. I must say though, I find it bizarre that you guys seem to reject the idea of female friends. I mean – why?! We can do conversations and stuff too. It doesn’t even make sense it the terms of the ‘rational science shit’ your bunch often cite – as having female friends means, if they think you’re a nice person, they’ll introduce you to their other female friends, who might fancy you. I genuinely don’t see how us women have metastasized in your minds, into something so alien that you don’t even want to engage with us anymore. Some of us are alright…
The last shall be first, and the first last, didn’t you know?
In which case the white knights and manginas would wake up and the game would be over for feminist.
MGTOW is winning! You are wasting most precious resource: time only for a pussy???
MGTOW is a way of life! However GAME, PUA, is a good bussiness for few and feeding false hopes for rest. NO WORTH. GAME OVER
It pains me to say, but as a feminist, I think I prefer MGTOW, as a concept to the Game or PUA mentality. However – I think that the worst of the MGTOW crowd, quite frankly come across as whiney little bitches who imagine that females owe them sex, without them doing anything at all to be pleasant enough for someone to sleep with. I suspect it’s a more authentic way of being than the other two though, so maybe there’s hope there.
Sorry Matt, you cannot offend us. If you want to do that, you’ll just have to show us your true feminist sjw colours.