Like many men in my generation, I have a father who has consistently failed at life. His unsolicited advice is usually worthless dribble aimed at justifying his own terrible choices. Two days before I left for law school this summer, he told me, “Blair, you don’t have the social temperament to succeed in the legal field.” For once he was absolutely right, and I pulled out in late October. It was one of the top five best decisions I will ever make.
Social Skills
Of course he meant that as a pejorative, since I am a mean son of a bitch, but I couldn’t be sycophantic enough to succeed in law even if I wanted to be. You really have to have the eternal smile, and I am just far too emotive. Law school fosters every terrible trait in my generation. For example, the students had this idea that they have a human right to never be offended by a peer for any reason.
One time a professor asked who in the class did not like Pope Francis, since apparently even he wanted a distraction from tort law. When I was the only student to raise my hand, he asked me why, and I responded, “Because he’s an empty showman and a media whore.” That might have been the day when I became “the one to avoid.”
As shallow as it sounds, law students cannot risk being around someone who could ruin their career. They will dump you at a moment’s notice based on a rumor no matter how close you have been. The demands for a clean reputation and the ease of falling into ostracization mandate that they have an exaggerated view of others as commodities. They spend so much energy building contacts but cannot afford to have any friends. It was political correctness hell.
Of course, they are somewhat wrong to think it really matters what the other law students think about them. The other students are not going to get you a job when you leave school, and after your first job, what really matters is your ability to make money. Or at least I assume that is so. But you do hear stories about people in big firms commonly knifing other members on their team at any opportunity. I decided very quickly that I wanted to work small firm or private practice in a rural area.
Misery And Misanthropy
I wrote that law school attracts the worst in humanity, but I have since learned that it also corrupts the best. There were some absolute southern feminine sweethearts unsure if they really wanted a career, and I worry what will be left of them by the time they graduate. I myself became a sadistic person, trying to ruin the day of people I didn’t like or delighting when something upset them.
My last week there, I found myself spreading a completely false rumor about a girl out of revenge for a completely true rumor she was spreading about me. I don’t want to be that kind of person, but apparently I am. I do not believe in using such phrases as “that’s not really who I am” to justify immorality. But terrible vindictiveness aside, I saw many good people become consumed with social anxiety.
The strength in a rumor is not in its ability to cause belief but to cause doubt. That girl I slandered, she was a virginal redhead Catholic ditz, and I claimed that she was making up lies about me because I rejected her sexual advances. Given law students’ love of gossip, it likely could have spread as absolute truth within a few days had I not emailed the person I told it to and played it off as “a tasteless joke.”
The rumor mill was amazing, and it would churn about anything insignificant. One time I bragged to a few friends about getting a girl’s number from a cold-call pick up, and I heard about it from two or three different people over the next few days. Why does anyone care? You would think they would find my love life to be boring. It’s not like I was even banging her.
The only professor I truly hated, one time she divided us into four teams and had us do a trivia challenge for a minuscule amount of extra credit on the midterm. Most of the students would argue ad infinitem for technicalities when they would get a question wrong, like a dog begging for the master’s table scraps.
I later told a friend that it was pathetic, and he said, “It makes us look passionate.”
“No,” I responded, “It makes you look desperate.”
My team ended up winning even though I came to class without the questions printed out. As soon as I left, I emailed the professor saying, “I would prefer not to receive the extra credit since I cannot take pride in my grade if I did not earn it.” I did this partly for the sake of my own pride and autonomy, but also just to mindfuck her. As the Bible says, showing graciousness to those you hate is the best way to screw with them.
If you hate being around beta males, you cannot fathom how lame the law school dweebs are. For example, two students actually told me they wanted career wives. The above “passionate” law school friend told me that he wouldn’t have a problem with his future wife pursuing her inane dreams because he didn’t want to be controlling. He even said that he preferred a career wife because he could have someone to relate to. [Snorts at the notion that men and women have things in common.]
I told her that a woman like that can marry someone else. If I am going to spend the rest of my life with a person, I have every right to be as picky as I want. The other was a fat male feminist who said he hoped to find a wife specifically at law school. I’m not sure if there’s a worse place to find someone who won’t have your balls on the nightstand as a trophy for all the guests to see.
About a month after I dropped out, I ran into the tort law professor at the gym. I told him basically all of the above. He said, “I’ve met so many students who go to law school because they feel like they have no choice, often from family pressure, and then they are miserable for the next thirty to forty years.”
I told him, “Professor W— said that he’s never met a lawyer who didn’t hate practicing law. That’s like a watching a murder of crows at a nursing home.”
“I’m lucky I get to teach,” he responded.
But All That Aside
Could I have just morally reformed and found a practice in a rural area away from normal law people? Somewhat, but we are all products of our environment. I saw what I would have to become, or at least what I would have likely become. And even if I did not become that, I understood that I could never entirely avoid these people in the profession. Without having met them, you really have no idea how hair-trigger they are to ruin each other’s career, and they naturally always assume that the others are out to get them.
To be a successful lawyer is to live in a state of paranoia. And even without the paranoia, I just hate being surrounded by the kind of people who make an effort to not have a personality or individuality. Law school was by far the most toxic social environment I have ever been in, and that includes youth group at Baptist church.
But apart from the social ills, I was surprised that the study of law was much more boring that I thought it would be. I am far too ADD to study in the necessary depth to make a decent grade. I have always had a “that’s good enough for me” kind of work ethic. While it is true that the best lawyers often have the worst grades, I really did not want to spend my life doing something I found mentally draining. Also, I do not want a career that requires overtime every week if there is no guarantee at making six digits.
In contrast, I had previously spent half a year painting professionally and almost enjoyed it, so I decided to enroll in the plumbing program at the local community college. And if I end up hating plumbing, at least I will not have pissed away three years and $100,000+ on an unstable career.
Some Things I Learned
The most important thing I learned is how to look up what the law is. This is more complex than you may think, and the average person cannot quite do it, even with the internet. And unless you want to spend several hours at the local library, you will need to pay for a subscription service.
I learned why lawyers are terrible people even though many good people aspire to study law. I think the administration pushes them into that competitive frenzy, but I cannot figure out why. Perhaps it is a rite of passage. The administration also has a strange toleration for overtly torturous professors who delight in having a reputation as a terrible human being. I fortunately only had one of those. She had all the smugness of Hillary Clinton without any of the charisma. Of course when I would rant about her, the female students would say, “Yeah, but have you seen her credentials?” as if that gives her a pass on basic human decency.
Law school is just as susceptible to progressivism as anything, including nominally Christian schools like I went to. The long-standing dean had retired the summer prior. He was an old white man. They replaced him with a middle-aged black woman with a background in public interest law. Of course a black woman would study public interest law, something with no marketable value but supposedly helps the disadvantaged.
I found it odd how people thought there were some forms of law that are intrinsically moral, when actually every field of law has its dark side and its bright side. The flagship program of the school is Child Advocacy, since that seems to be the Jesus thing to do. But how many homes have been broken up through a guardian ad litem because of a flexible definition of abuse? The women students especially seemed prone to finding a feel-good field of law with low pay. Myself, I was planning on studying “divorce, custody, and elder law so that I can provide a single-income family.” The other students would be horrified or look embarrassed when I would tell them that.
Final Satisfaction
My article I linked to above? I can’t quite figure out how, but somehow someone figured out I wrote it, and the article went viral around school. Remember, a hunch that something may be true is good enough for a conviction when it comes time to ruin someone’s career. This was a week before I dropped out, and although it’s not the reason I withdrew, it certainly made me want to even more, though I doubt it would have made much difference in the long term even if I had admitted to writing it.
Several people were asking about it and not believing me when I denied it. It’s amazing how they think they are entitled to your private life or that they have a right to be offended by your unspoken opinions. One white knight even said, “It’s common knowledge…You chose to publish things online under a different name.” [emphasis mine]
For over a week, I was very angry and upset, but then I suddenly realized that it was actually a good thing. This is the article that said:
Unsurprisingly, I couldn’t find any data for what fields of law women tend to study, but from what I’ve seen, they are almost always either “fun” fields like child advocacy, sports, or entertainment, or “clean” fields like tax law or prosecution. Women don’t study divorce, custody, criminal defense, or anything that is morally vague or subject to interpretation.
It is said that there are twice as many law jobs as there are new law graduates, but that’s because people specialize in bullshit fields that are flooded by cowards.
Also unsurprisingly, the kind of men and women who go to law school aren’t the type of people who read Return of Kings…Law school attracts the absolute worst in humanity. Weak, cowardly men and cutthroat, entitled women.
I had been wanting to tell the entire class off since orientation. How many people get that opportunity? And the best part is, they all willing listened to my insult and then spread it to the others. This is one of many reasons that ROK is the best job I will ever have.
Read More: 8 Essential Rules To Surviving The Workplace
Good choice. Lawyers are pretty miserable as a profession. They are constantly focusing on the down-side of any situation, which makes them great business advisers but screws up their personal lives.
“For example, two students actually told me they wanted career wives. ”
Good article, however, I really do suggest that we don’t shame men who “want” career wives. Your wife having a career is absolutely essential if you want to have any chance in a divorce proceeding. Get a prenup and never let her quit her job. The “stay at home” model died in the 50-60’s with the rise of feminism. If you really want that, leave the country, it’s far too dangerous in today’s society to have a woman sitting at home all day. You’ll get fucked in court, and she’ll get fucked by all the alphas running around taking care of the desperate housewives. Remember, your wife will hang out with other massively entitled stay at home moms who will tell her she “deserves” to have some strange dick because of “how hard she works”.
A lot of guys have the same view of “career women.” I can tell you from personal experience that women attorneys in particular are tough nuts to crack. Funny thing is, they generally don’t even date or marry other lawyers. I’ve seen plenty of female attorneys dating fix-it guys, music store managers, and lawn service dudes (no, I am not joking…a friend of mine actually married a guy who had a lawn service, a “rim shop” he operated out of his garage and a hot wing restaurant on the side). Generally, the relationships I see working involve male lawyers with female school teachers. School teachers have to be nurturing and patient in order to do the job, so they’re 75% of the way there straight out of the gate in terms of marriageability. Just avoid the high school teachers…they’re the ones who bang the football players after school. Shoot for elementary school or 6th grade middle school teachers.
And on a side note, some female attorneys aren’t as bad as others. The corporate law, divorce law, and criminal law chicks (especially district attorneys) are the premier elite ball busters. Avoid them like the plague. But all the rest of them are somewhat more down to earth. A king needs a suitable consort to build an empire. While I agree that you shouldn’t be looking for a high-powered super-bitch who’ll drain your life force and crush your free will, at the same time you shouldn’t be looking for Waffle House waitresses or chicks like the one Bridget Fonda played on Jackie Brown (you know, the one who just laid on Samuel L. Jackson’s couch all day smoking weed). Lazy, empty-headed bitches get cut from my team QUICK.
Why wouldn’t you want a Waffle House waitress, assuming she has all her teach?
THIS is why:
Most (though not all) of them have a lifetime pass on the carousel and/or drug problems. Sure, they’ll be hellcats in the sack, but they almost always have either a motorcycle-riding ex-con boyfriend ready to kneecap you or some bastard offspring ready to roll you when your back’s turned. Moral of the story is, proceed with caution. It’s a myth that only Hooters waitresses and barmaids can be skanks and train wrecks. Unless she works for a family-owned business and she’s a member of that family (which you usually find with many Asian and Italian restaurants) you’re probably just looking at pump and dump material.
Avoid those corporate law, criminal law and divorce lawyers like the plague!
This is spot on. The female assistant state’s/district Attorneys are, in my experience, the best looking and the biggest ball busters, as you say.
Pump and dump a state’s attorney, but LTR a public defender. At least PDs have a heart and some compassion.
Nearly every female attorney I know is an angry mega-twat. They are to be avoided at all costs.
Lady lawyers tend to fall into two camps, with nobody in the middle: the ones that are really good at their jobs, aren’t bitches and are a pleasure to work with. Then there are the 99% of the rest of them who are total harpies.
Ha – I paid for law school. Now my Attorney ex-wife has everything.
Avoid that anything to do with lawyers like the plague.
That attitude seems a bit defeatist. Why would you want to get married under the assumption you will be divorced? You’re increasing the chance you’ll be divorced by choosing a wife who has a mission she prioritizes above her husband. The solution is to not get married, not to pick the woman whose divorce will hurt you the least.
“Why would you want to get married under the assumption you will be divorced?”
Because you probably will be. And among couples where both are college-educated, the wife is going to bail 90% of the time. Probably more where both are lawyers.
I get your point but I’m not sure you get mine. If you’re so assured of the divorce, the smart move is to not get married.
Excellent point. People need to realize that the pre 50’s era is LONG GONE! And it ain’t coming back either.
The only reason why marriages use to last a lifetime was because men and women needed each other(LITERALLY), the welfare state didn’t exist back then, much less a pseudo-omnipotent bureaucracy.
What happens when said career woman begins to out earn her husband by a significant amount. She suddenly thinks she rules the roost when her income is five times what you earn like my ex. I’ll never date a career woman again, it’s the biggest turn off. I’d rather take my chances with a stay at home wife.
Interesting read, you made the right call if you knew being a lawyer was going to make you miserable an it’s not what you wanted to do then don’t do it even if it is regarded by society as prestigious. I was studying to be a chef an pulled out after completing my first certificate, not as prestigious as being a lawyer but same situation I hated it an knew even if I completed all the study it wasn’t what I’d wanna do. Do what makes you happy not others.
On a kind of a completely unrelated note, I have this video to share with you, and it illustrates the relation between feminism and “the patriarchy” quite perfectly, gentlemen: In the brazilian version of “MasterChef”, there’s this woman competing with other contestants on who can cook faster or something… no translation needed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmgzfn1VtQ4
What the fuck did I just watch? 😉
If she has cracked the top of the jar with the cleaver it would have made a hole in the lid an the comoressed air would have been let out an it would have been easy to screw off, silly woman.
Bravo Blair!! For someone who is clearly a bright mind, you made the right choice. The hilarious thing about all who study law, they are typically some of the brightest minds mankind has to offer, bending over looking to get raped by the wealthy for a safe salary. If you took a 20 inch 15 lbs, shrapnel laced gorilla penis up the ass daily wouldn’t you be scummy to your fellow man? Seems like a disgusting battle of attrition to safety while eagerly shaving years away from your life. Although it is a career woman’s dream to get praised for beauty, beta dick by the truck load, and tons of entitlement as they proceed to be paid for screwing people over, for a person with morals, it will continuously rape your mind and feed you beta paradigm until you choke.
Once again, Blair, Bravo for making your way out. Who wants a dried up 32 year old, entitled bitch for a wife anyway?
In my final year of law school (not in the US). Was thinking of moving to the US in 2-3 years and doing the NY Bar. Haven’t been so keen on that plan for a while now.
life’s what happens while you’re busy making plans… don’t tell me you got that idea from law and order … hahaha
Nah lol. Not a fan of that show actually. We’ll see what happens.
Here’s a good reason to drop out of law school. I’d rather spend that kind of cash gaming girls in Medellin, Rio, or Odessa.
After seeing this, I am convinced, only the really stupid, enroll into law school. No fucking degree, (even medicine) is worth $165,000, factoring in compound interest and the fact that you can default at anytime.
The really stupid or people who already have connections.
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Please explain how 165k in debt is not worth it to, say, and interventional cardiologist who will make 850k for 20 years work?
165k debt to become a cardiologist who makes well into the 6 figures is indeed worth it.
He is talking about 165k to obtain a JD which does not appear to have as bright of prospects in the current market.
The real issue to unravel here is what is the true value of a JD.
You are correct. I would also say that going to Harvard Yale or Stanford is most likely worth it for law school. Job prospects are abundant (if you are normal) and average salaries in the midpoint of the schools graduates careers are in the low to mid 200’s.
A friend of mine graduated from Harvard with the most random degree (e.g., MA in aboriginal studies) and immediately landed a high-level government job in Canada. So you’re most likely correct.
I’m pretty sure the doubting of the value of a JD probably refers to lower-tier schools. Where there are so many students and graduates that the system can afford to take advantage of them and force them to compete tooth and nail.
What makes you think that you are guaranteed to be an interventional cardiologist who can make 850K for 20 years work?
Seriously, your statement sounds exactly like what a 14 year old kid would say.
Do you have any idea, of what it takes to get to that level of success? More than just a degree- thats a start. Even in the medical profession, you must deal with internal politics, finding legitimate partners and the other bullshit that is present in corporate America.
And they don’t teach you that at school for $165,000.
Lol, relax my friend. The fact that there are no guarantees makes your blanket statement that 165k in debt is never worth it (even in medicine), silly.
But since it appears you are rather simple minded, even the “average” family practitioner doctor who makes 120k for 30 years (assuming a 30 year old start) will pay off the debt and retire comfortably.
Therefore, for the top 5% of doctors (and lawyers) it will be worth it, and for the bottom 15% of doctors (not lawyers), 165k in debt will be worth it. Feel free to retract your blanket statement (165k isn’t worth it for doctors) that fails to consider nuances.
I’m hoping there is a typo here, because this is too obvious. If I make $850,000 for twenty years work then I am making $42,500 per year before taxes. So, I have $165,000 in debt over my head and am only making $42,500 per year, but I could be a journeyman in any number of skilled trades jobs and make the same amount without any debt over my head, as no degree is required. The choice is pretty obvious, don’t go to school if the payout is that low.
You are just wrong. Anyone who makes 300K+ per year will live very well, even with 165k in debt. The rule of thumb is that the degree is worth it if your starting salary is >= the total amount of debt.
There is a reason doctors live well, even the new ones.
Actually you are wrong.
Not every doctor will make 300K per year. That is a lie.
Do you have any idea, how much competition there is in the medical field after residency is complete, just to obtain one of high paying positions in medicine?
“There is a reason doctors live well, even the new ones.”
Yeah, go tell that to all the doctors who are forced to work under Obamacare, or even worse, the doctors who are forced to work under the strict conditions of the NHS in the United Kingdom.
There is a very good reason why doctors have a high suicide rate and burn out rate. Don’t try to fool people with that statement about how doctors have the great life.
Its hard work, and even money sometimes cannot compensate for the mental hell they have to go through.
Truth you are wrong. I can post you the MGMA statistics on average phy salaries and those don’t include the side work or ownership in MRIs etc..Most will get 300k as typically the benefit packages are not included and range about 40k….. I don’t think you have an understanding of compensation. .Yes, you have to love medicine etc and the numbers are tough – top 5% of college grads go to med school who apply, top 50% of med school -4 years …go on to another 2-3 years getting through finishing the training process. The reason there is a shortage of doctors isn’t because of the numbers; its the schools that limit the applicants ..this causes the suicide rate and burn out rate as these folks are treating america- which is old and very sick. I think the failure in Doctors and there incessant whining is they never had a real job in their lives and are constant being catered to. It is a “great life’ if you like people and treating them. I don’t. I could care less if half of society died off.
I’m pretty sure he meant 850k PER YEAR for twenty years. That sounds like a pretty optimistic number to me, but I’m sure SOME Drs make that.
Friend told me the most of the nurses and physicians assistants make more than the docs doing their residencies. Doing a residency in Manhattan has to be a nightmare, you have to live within a mile or two of the hospital, so you are stuck paying 2500/mo for a shitty studio apt.
Imagine being 31, an almost- dr, eating ramen noodles and not having enough coin in your pocket to date women?
Everything is backwards nowadays.
I posted recently about the old man who bought a house in a now hot hood in the outer boros 50 yrs ago for $25,000 (its now valued at 1.1 mil). The man’s profession at the time of purchase?
A cobbler.
A dr up to his eyeballs in debt couldnt dream of being able to buy that house now…
Oh don’t worry dear. Plenty of desperate “I wanna marry a doktor!” puddy lined up at the door.
Residency is the hospitals way of getting cheap labor. You are lower then the janitor as a resident. It’s fucked up.
“Mamas don’t let your babies grow up to be cowboys, make em be doctors and lawyers and such.”
Law School degrees are hard to measure objectively, because lawyers salaries rise and peak right into their late 50s. In most jobs, men’s salary peak in their early 40s, for most lawyers, you keep making more and more money until your 50s. You get bigger and bigger cases with more money and responsibility. One case can make you millions.
Nope – that might have been great advice for a young baby boomer circa 1974, but the current map of reality does not support the “it will come back” approach. The entire landscape has changed – many of these jobs are simply gone with technology, outsourcing, transparency of bill rates from big firms, etc. Objectively, a law degree has negative economic value to all but the top finishers or the top schools.
Don’t tell me you’re attorney you’ve posted some of the most illogical arguments on this sight about how racist America is. Do you actually represent people who are in a jam or do you just take their money and lose?
I am the best damn attorney the court room has every seen. You are just bitter because you are a lowlife loser bum.
I bet you’re one of those Immigration Attorney’s that takes poor illegals money just to fill out forms any nominally literate person could fill out. I bet you work in Miami and never even passed the bar and that’s why you work Immigration cases.
I bet you work with rednecks in montana who still sign their name with an xxxx and you charge then to fill out wills they could do from home. I bet you work in Billings and never even went to law school, that is why you work on wills.
This is simply untrue. If you cannot get a job, go out on your own and set up your own shingle. There is a huge gap in the underserved legal market. You could post ads for free on numerous classifieds online and give advice for a rather low rate $100 an hour for instance and still make a fairly decent income. Bear in mind that $100 an hour is more than almost any other professional makes per hour.
You build a list of clients, you take the best cases on contingency. You win them, get your cut, you get referrerals and network. Its not an easy street, but most solos don’t look back after a few years. Solos jobs have not gone anywhere. In fact they are more in demand now than ever, because people are looking to downsize outrageously high legal cost, for competent attorneys. Just being a competent attorney, who isn’t drug addicted, responds to clients calls, and actually does a good job representing clients, you will get many referrals.
Actually I live in Vermont and it sucks, I used to live in Miami and it was awesome. I didn’t care much for the foreign douche bags with a chip on their shoulders about how evil America is and then they cash their paychecks every Friday.
No, I didn’t go to law school but I certainly did deal with a lot of so called attorneys who “represented” immigrants when I worked for the INS. They charged up to $10k to fill out forms that were self explanatory.
Did you pass the bar or not?
yes
Well congratulations, I have no idea where your anger towards this country comes from. I would be grateful for the opportunities this country has provided but instead you post angry diatribes about how racist America is and how we stole everything.
Enjoy your money I’m sure you make a lot more than I do, not to mention living somewhere that is better than where I live. I guess you’ll never appreciate how good you got it.
Are you a new law student or a school administrator? Because they are they only ones left who still believe that fantasy. Ask someone who’s been a solo how it really goes and you get a much less rosy picture. Ever heard of Legalzoom? Going taw school to be a solo equals starvation with a massive debt load.
I am grateful of the opportunities the country has granted me, but I am also ashamed of all the opportunities it has denied so many others.
No.
Its not a fantasy except to the lazy.
“The 37-year-old attorney earned a degree from the University of North Carolina’s School of Law in May 2009 and had his own criminal law practice up and running by the end of September.”
““Law schools are not equipped to help you start your own firm,” asserted Chetson, who said he made more last year than the $150,000 to $160,000 that a mid-level associate at a big law firm typically earns”
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/43442917/ns/business-careers/t/law-grads-going-solo-loving-it/#.VJdGhF4CdA
It took him a year to make the same as most mid-level associates. People who want success even from tt3 toilets find it. People who want failure, also find it. Yes most fall between but a well spoken person with legal skills will not have problems finding clients.
I’m sorry but I do not believe that a new solo crim defense lawyer from UNC made more than 150-160k in a year. No. Fucking. Way.
There are occasional exceptions, but bread & butter crim clients by and large have no money except for DUI cases. Do you have any idea how many DUI cases it takes to make that kind of money? Clients with money do not hire fresh out of diapers solo crim lawyers, they hire the best and most experienced. So what kinds of referrals so you think a new solo crim lawyer gets? I’ll tell you what kind – court assigned referrals where the lawyer gets paid a pittance. I have solo friends who actually do this and they find themselves literally fighting over and portion of their loser client’s monthly social security disability payment to get paid anything at all. It isn’t about being lazy or who hustles the most – they hustle and they are nowhere near making that amount of money. This doesn’t even count the clients who never pay them at all. The person you quoted is either lying or delusional. Either way, even if the above quoted guy is telling the truth his experience is the exception not the rule.
Going to law school in an effort to replicate that experience while gambling your future with six figures of non dischargeable debt is a fools errand. Don’t do it.
Actually he made closer to 200k, the numbers seem to be accurate. Its a little under about 2 new cases a week or so. Well NC has 50k duis or so, and he does do other areas. Recall he only needs 80 or so cases to make 200k.
Well the truth is 99% of clients do little to no background research on their attorney and would have no way of judging how experienced their lawyer actually was. And a lawyer with lots of experience, can still be a very terrible lawyer, as many are drug and alcohol addicted. Add-in that he is 37 year old, clients may think he is more experienced than he actually is if he comes across as very professional and knowledgeable.
Most clients do not have the $50,000-$100,000 it takes to hire a proper, 10 years former corporate attorney who will adequately represent them. So they either pay $5000 to get slightly below average representation. Or they represent themself or take a public defender who tells them to plea guilty.
Most clients don’t have 50k to hire a $500-$1000 an hour hot shot attorney. So they either plea guilty, or get a lawyer who will work for free and lose their case for certain, or they take a chance and hire a newer lawyer who might win.
Untrue, the new lawyer will get whatever he works for. For one, the new lawyer will get the referral from the $1000 an hour attorney who won’t take the client who can pay just $5000. The new lawyer can set up his own website and get local traffic.
Sorry I know other solos who made substantially more than he did although older and were nothing special.
Why would a lawyer choose doc review over being a solo. You have a degree, there is no difference in competence between a top law grad and low ttt grad. Its all about hustle. The big firms might not recognize your t3 degree. But clients don’t care. Clients just want to win. They don’t care if you practiced 100 years or 1 year. Can you win my case. Will you charge me a reasonable amount. That is all they care about.
What numbers? Does he publish his tax returns on his web site? I didn’t see anything here other than nebulous claims of faceless and nameless “clients”, but who knows, maybe he can feed himself and pay his loans which is no small feat for a new solo (and also the reason why they usually choose (get stuck with) doc review over being a solo).
I disagree, the best attorney’s period are former corporate attorney’s they’ll run circles around a 10 year crim law attorney.
Man, dude, if you’re a lawyer you’d get thrown out of the courts where I appear and the law office where I work with all those typos and that poor grammar.
And do you call the judge man, dude, as well? There are plenty of dumb lawyers, many who can barely speak english, don’t start that with me.
No, I respect judges. I use “man,” and “dude” with those “dumb lawyers” that can’t construct a single sentence without any errors.
Thank you Hernan! Some of these guys cry too much. Nothing is easy in life! Yes, law school is a rip off but a determined solo who is ready work can make it worthwhile.
A hard working and confident solo will make a good living. The problem is there are too many beta/lazy types who think that when they go to law school they are guaranteed to make six figures without working hard.
Montana is a beautiful state, still wild &free, Billings is also a cool town. And they sign their names with an ink pen, or an electronic signature.
The joys of legal writing format….Bluebook that shit!
That’s bullshit! We’re entitled to nothing in life! One has ot make their own opportunites..
You’re an idiot. How were others denied?
According to contract theory, an X, a scribble or even a picture of Pepe may constitute a valid signature on a writing….better start signing my name with Pepe now…
A solo who really puts in the effort can make a good living. It is all about effort and being in the right demographic. Legalzoom can never take over for a hardworking human being.
How long have you been at it and what’s your hook? General practice in your average city is a losing proposition.
And yes, people are definitely being replaced by machines even more than they were from Indian outsourcing just a few years ago. http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160723/NEWS/160729930/the-rise-of-the-legal-machines
I have been in the game for sixteen years and the trick is that you have to be involved in very personal things like immigration, family, criminal and bankruptcy. People in such situations want to talk to a human being. After dabbling in different areas I found that immigration was the right area. It is different for everyone but people still want to talk with competent human beings.
Glad to hear it’s working for you – or at least I hope it is. On balance, every one of those areas are not exactly underserved. As you mention, all require intense amounts of face time. As a solo crim lawyer how much time can you realistically give to each client? Too many shitbag defense lawyers I’ve seen want to grab the money and cop a plea – not go to trial – because that’s the easiest way to get a little money and move the case load along. Trial takes effort from someone good, expensive, and with other resources (people) to help share the load. It’s just not possible to do that as a solo.
Immigration might be a little less time consuming per case than criminal but you still are limited by how much time you can spend with each client as a solo. You’re probably also serving clients that don’t have a lot of money. The well off clients will probably go to better known lawyers in bigger firms with more resources.
None of this changes the reality that the machines, legalzoom and other aspects are eating away at the overall number of jobs – there are better career options nowadays considering the financial and opportunity cost, not to mention the extreme difficulty navigating away from a legal background if you find it is not for you.
Good luck.
Being a lawyer in non common-law countries mostly sucks too. The main differentiator is that they do not carry soul-crushing, life-changing debt.
For myself, I don’t particularly enjoy the practice of law, but I don’t own a single cent to any bank. If I had to pay USD$1,200 per month just for the interest, my brain would melt.
“, factoring in compound interest and the fact that you can default at anytime”
One cannot default on school loans – they have debtors prison now.
Lawyers are some of the most stupid people you can find, useless at everything except lying. Not only do they embellish the truth whenever necessary, but they confound and complicate basic human communication to a point you dare not put a foot forwards without depositing a five figure retainer at some suited two faced fuckers slimy office.
Lawyers have systematically ruined every business relationship I’ve involved them in and surprise surprise when I’ve dealt with clients directly and operated on open trust, clients reciprocated and we never needed so much as a reminder invoice. As soon as you bring lawyers in, the air hangs heavy with mistrust and everyone begins to think of ways to cheat each other.
Why wouldn’t they… A lawyers job relies on mistrust and bad faith. If two business associates get along well, what use do they have for legal contracts, on the flip side no amount of legal paperwork will stop someone fucking you over and more often than not your are only collateral damage in some of their other poor dealings, nothing direct or personal and nothing a lawyer and his smarmy 50 pages of shite could prevent.
Lawyers are a little mafia all of their own. They operate in conjunction with the legal system to scare you into using them OR ELSE, god help you if you need one down the track. The only ones who win when you have to involve lawyers are the lawyers. Aside from some criminal suit you can lie your way out of lawyers are best avoided.
Remember it’s always a conflict of interest to hire a lawyer, because his salary relies on you needing his advice and your legal affairs being confounded, conflicted and seething with mistrust. If they aren’t like that when you retain him, they sure will be by the time he’s finished.
It seems that med. school and law school debt gets paid off and then the money starts rolling in…right when you’re stuck in mid-career, no chance to go anywhere. The career ends, the money is there in a big pile…right when you no longer give a shit about anything approaching youthfulness whatsoever…mid-late fifties. A big pile of money to spend on a golf cart, a watch collection, jacaranda wood finishing for your den etc. Trinkets really. You better head out to travel when you actually care about humanity. Because you won’t by the time you hit age 45. You also better make sure you’re INTERESTED in law or medicine before you go into it.
Plenty of people with law degrees working in HR or some other shitty job. Don’t do it unless you go to a top school.
All of my friends graduated from top 10 law schools, and even then, could not secure a training contract. The people who did secure employment, were the air head girls who were good looking, and the ones who had family connections.
Law school is the biggest rip off and I advice anyone considering it, not to do it. Forget the fact that the legal market is oversaturated, but the reality is your not learning any real skills that are valuable in the labor market. Heck, even an English Literature degree has more value, because at least you can get teaching jobs. With law, there is nothing.
With law, you develop poor social skills, because you are having to study most of the time, and when you try to engage in conversation with anyone about the law, they will find you really boring company.
The amount of bogus degrees out there, law definately falls into this category. Heck, I should teach a new degree called “why you should avoid law school.” Even this degree would have more value than a law degree, because you would learn more about how the real world works.
Most law students have poor social skills to begin with. I’ve seen it.
And when you see them in law school, they act like they are on top of the world. What a laugh riot.
Lmao!! Law students would shit or shoot themselves if Alcohol wasn’t allowed within 2 miles of Law Schools. Maybe they’d do both.
Alcohol and prescription drug abuse in the legal industry (I hate calling it a “profession”) is widespread. -Most- other attorneys I know have a DUI/DWI.
So get as high as legally possible? Too beta for my tastes.
I have an issue with the ‘Doctorate’ in the term ‘Juris Doctorate’.
*********
They
have contributed no original thought to their field, as would a math or
science Doctorate holder. The title is unearned, self-promoting, and
when considered against other disciplines, not equivalent. It is boldly intellectually dishonest.
Good point.
The doctorate part was conferred (invented) by legislators made of of….you guessed it: lawyers!
If your friends went to a top 10 law school and could not secure employment, then your friends were a) In the bottom 30% of their class, b) Socially challenged, and unable to be likable for a total of 3.5 hours c) Lazy, or d) combination of the above.
a) Graduated with first class degrees from Oxford, Cambridge and LSE (with highest marks in all of their modules.)
b) They have dozens of friends and always offering great company, and if they were unlikable, I would not call them friends.
c) Read a) again.
d) Read all of the above again.
b) Just because they have dozens of friends who think their cool, doesn’t mean that they are actually cool. Also doesn’t mean they can interview well for 3.5 hours.
c). Further proving b, because if they had highest marks in all of their modules, firms would be looking for reasons to accept them.
b) Well, you don’t know them. I do, and I personally get along with them. They have landed several interviews, but again, how would you know that they did not do so well. Which leads me to:
c) What makes you think firms would have any reasons to accept them? Incase you missed my other comments, meritocracy does not work in the real world. Nepotism, cronyism, sex appeal, racism, HR department discrimination, quotas and other bullshit criteria elements takes precedent over meritocracy.
b) I know that they did not do so well because they don’t have jobs. That simple.
c) I know from first hand experience. I attended a top 3 law school, and know first hand what it is like for students who are at the top of the class. Hell, I wasn’t at the top but i had 9 job offers while turning down interviews at several more. All the top students were swimming in offers, as it is in the firms best interest to recruit the smartest students. Nepotism happens, but only for a small percentage of students not to the detriment of top candidates.
a) They have good paying jobs- just not in the legal profession.
b) And you’ve proven my point- meritocracy has no real value. You state that you went to a top 3 school but did not come at the top of your class.
I know guys who went to second tier schools with 1st class honors, got the highest marks in their class, but despite that, got rejected by the top magic circle law firms in Central London, and instead the jobs went to 2 blonde female candidates, who graduated with 3rd class degree from Oxford.
Like I said, factors such as the brand name of your school, nepotism, cronyism, quotas and other bullshit factors, take precedence over meritocracy
A white guy “playing the race card”. How tantalizingly ironic, hypocritical and blue pill. WoW. Reverse kudos to you sir.
Moron. Read the post again. I don’t work in HR, and if I did run my own company, I would select people based on meritocracy, not race.
Sorry, but your argument is inadvertently beta. Only the strong survive. Some will go to law school and be successful and others will not. It does not matter where you go to school. It is all about determination and attitude.
Golf clap.
Start a business or go to med school.
I’m too far in right now to get out right now. I like some aspects of my job, but keep in mind that I do criminal. The most enjoyable form of law is criminal work (it’s what they see on TV), and that’s what I do, and I can say than less than half of what I do is enjoyable. Imagine what a bankruptcy or trade or re-insurance lawyer does—total boredom x 10. And criminal law really doesn’t pay that well, just slightly above average if you do it ok. Great criminal lawyers have great war stories, but only modest bank accounts—-and the few the really big earning criminal attorneys spend like rap stars, and thus are usually broke.
Plus the market is completely over-saturated with lawyers now, so you won’t find a job.
And don’t get me started on how bad the training is in law school. People think lawyers and doctors in this country both get equally rigorous training. WRONG! Doctors in this country are trained very well (I have doctor friends who have explained how much they have to do/learn in med school—there’s a reason American medical schools are held in high prestige). For lawyers, the hardest part is getting in; after that, grades are largely a crapshoot and no memorization or learning is required beyond what will be on the exam, which is fluff.
I’ll be the voice of dissent here. You say that you had aspirations for what you wanted to do with a law degree – in other words you had a goal, that you, a man, decided on.
Then you went to school, and you gave up on it because a bunch of whiny SJWs basically annoyed you enough. Put another way, they beat you. Let’s not sugar coat it.
I’m a lawyer. I can tell you there are plenty of reasons not to become one, but what often passes for discussion on this subject is written by people who obviously never should have become lawyers in the first place. That’s valuable as far as it goes because it may help you to decide if the profession is right for you, but all this shit about, “graduates from top ten law schools can’t even land jobs, blah, blah, blah.”
Wrong. Graduates of top ten schools who finish “at the bottom of their class” can’t get jobs. Graduates of top ten law schools in the top of their class but who are socially retarded, have no common sense and would obviously be painful to work with can’t get jobs.
Newsflash to millennials – you aren’t entitled to a job because you have a credential behind your name.
This focus on job prospects is worthwhile if you’re going to be introspective about the fact that you’re not willing to study hard enough to be in the top third of your class, or you’re not enough of a people person to land the job at a firm. Fine. But as a post hoc excuse for why you dropped out, it rings hollow. You knew that shit before you started, this is just an excuse for failure, which is what women do.
And that brings us back to the main problem with this article. It reads as a warning for men to stay away from the legal profession. I have no problems with men entering this profession with eyes wide open about the realities of it. But I’d take this advice with a grain of salt coming from someone who didn’t even finish one semester of school – most of these retards will not end up as lawyers because they will study useless subjects and find themselves unemployable. Not to say that there aren’t problems with SJWs in the legal profession, but it’s not quite what this article makes it out to be.
But even if it was – the withdrawal of men from the profession is part of the problem. SJWs aren’t winning the culture war because they have inherently better positions on things. They are winning because slowly but steadily they are infesting every facet of the legal profession, from firms, to courts, to policy positions, and then using the force of numbers to shift the law to favor their idiocy. Without men to fight against this, the war is lost. If men ever hope to regain some of the balance under the law, to reclaim the concepts of due process and justice, then men have to fight for them, because women are fighting against them. That means that men, red-pill men, have to become lawyers and put up with the SJW bullshit and fight against it.
Imagine a world where in 1942, the U.S. said, you know, the Japs are kicking our assess across the Pacific, time to say fuck it and go home because it’s just too hard to continue and we’re losing. Bullshit! When you’re down, you dig in and fight back, regroup, marshal your strength, make better strategic decisions and annihilate the enemy. Bowing out isn’t red-pill, or alpha. It’s cowardly.
This doesn’t happen without lawyers to fight these battles. So if you can’t stomach this fight, fine. But don’t paint with a broad brush and counsel red pill men to abandon the fight where they are arguably needed most – the courts and policy chambers of this nation ARE the front lines in this fight. That is where men need to gather, lock shields, lower spears and resist until death.
Very well said.
“Then you went to school, and you gave up on it because a bunch of
whiny SJWs basically annoyed you enough. Put another way, they beat
you. Let’s not sugar coat it.”
-I don’t speak on behalf of the author, but people give up on law schools for numerous reasons. Some find it boring, or more commonly, waking up to reality and realising there is no point in going to law school because there are no jobs afterwards, and more debt”
“I’m a lawyer. I can tell you there are plenty of reasons not to
become one, but what often passes for discussion on this subject is
written by people who obviously never should have become lawyers in the
first place. That’s valuable as far as it goes because it may help you
to decide if the profession is right for you, but all this shit about,
“graduates from top ten law schools can’t even land jobs, blah, blah,
blah.”
-No one cares if you are a lawyer. Your personal anecdote does not account for anyone else’s. People have their reasons for realising law school is not valuable.
“Wrong. Graduates of top ten schools who finish “at the bottom of
their class” can’t get jobs. Graduates of top ten law schools in the
top of their class but who are socially retarded, have no common
sense and would obviously be painful to work with can’t get jobs.
Newsflash to millennials – you aren’t entitled to a job because you have a credential behind your name.”
-You are wrong. My friends graduated from Oxford, Cambridge and LSE in the United Kingdom, with 1st class honours and had to compete with 1000 candidates for 10 training places. Go tell them they are socialy retarded and you’ll end up with a black eye. You clearly don’t know how the real world because the reality is that meritocracy does not work. People are selected by criteria elements such as female, sex appeal, nepotism and cronyism, HR departments etc. That is how the real world works.
“Newsflash to millennials – you aren’t entitled to a job because you have a credential behind your name.”
-Why is this a millenial issue? Even Gen X are the older generations are affected by bad job market. Yeah, you’re not entitled to a job, yet you hypocrites like yourself,keep preaching about how millenials are lazy and should get a job. Stop contradicting yourselves. The baby boomers have wrecked the economy and not preserved anything for future generations. Thats why so many people can’t enter the workforce. On top of that, factor in automation and you can see why the job market is bleak.
“This focus on job prospects is worthwhile if you’re going to be
introspective about the fact that you’re not willing to study hard
enough to be in the top third of your class, or you’re not enough of a
people person to land the job at a firm. Fine. But as a post hoc
excuse for why you dropped out, it rings hollow. You knew that shit
before you started, this is just an excuse for failure, which is what
women do.”
– Not going to argue with you here.
“And that brings us back to the main problem with this article. It
reads as a warning for men to stay away from the legal profession. I
have no problems with men entering this profession with eyes wide open
about the realities of it. But I’d take this advice with a grain of
salt coming from someone who didn’t even finish one semester of school –
most of these retards will not end up as lawyers because they will
study useless subjects and find themselves unemployable. Not to say
that there aren’t problems with SJWs in the legal profession, but it’s
not quite what this article makes it out to be.”
-The legal profession should be avoided altogether. There just isn’t any point in pursuing a law degree because that is how bad the job market is. People need to open their eyes to the reality, so they don’t make the biggest mistake of entering it. I remember watching a BBC documentary on barristers, and out of a class of 70, only 1 female, got a training contract because of connections. What does that go to show you? The reality is people should listen to people who have a degree or have worked in the legal profession, because they are the ones who know what they are talking about. That is who I take all of my arguments from and use here.
“But even if it was – the withdrawal of men from the profession is part
of the problem. SJWs aren’t winning the culture war because they have
inherently better positions on things. They are winning because slowly
but steadily they are infesting every facet of the legal profession,
from firms, to courts, to policy positions, and then using the force of
numbers to shift the law to favor their idiocy. Without men to fight
against this, the war is lost. If men ever hope to regain some of the
balance under the law, to reclaim the concepts of due process and
justice, then men have to fight for them, because women are fighting
against them. That means that men, red-pill men, have to become lawyers
and put up with the SJW bullshit and fight against it.”
-Again, I don’t bother fighting pointless battles like this, because the truth is, there is no point going to war if you are going to lose. I got accused of being a pussy faggot for this approach in one of the other articles. My belief is to live your life by your own value system. Whatever that is, it should allow you live a better and more fulfilling life. I would assume that red pill men avoid the legal profession and pursue better and realistic careers.
“Imagine a world where in 1942, the U.S. said, you know, the Japs are
kicking our assess across the Pacific, time to say fuck it and go home
because it’s just too hard to continue and we’re losing. Bullshit!
When you’re down, you dig in and fight back, regroup, marshal your
strength, make better strategic decisions and annihilate the enemy.
Bowing out isn’t red-pill, or alpha. It’s cowardly.”
-According to you, its cowardly. If you guys like you love to wage war, then how come you have not made any real difference to the real world? Have you cleaned the corruption in the family courts? Have you eliminated HR departments and discrimination against men? Have you eliminated feminism from the mainstream media? Have you eliminated feminism from government? All you bunch of internet tough guys are a laugh. All you do, is talk the talk, but can never walk, the walk. Which is why MGTOW and other movements are growing bigger and more men are now simply walking away from the bullshit, because walking away sometimes, does prove to be more effective than fighting a lost war.
“This doesn’t happen without lawyers to fight these battles. So if
you can’t stomach this fight, fine. But don’t paint with a broad brush
and counsel red pill men to abandon the fight where they are arguably
needed most – the courts and policy chambers of this nation ARE the
front lines in this fight. That is where men need to gather, lock
shields, lower spears and resist until death.”
-(Yawn.) The courts and policy chambers are infested and entrenched with corrupt judges,lobbists, donations and the other crooks from Wall Street. It has been this way for a long time, and will continue to do so.
Most beta response ever. Are you sure you belong on this site?
On the contrary. It is a more of a realistic response. Do I belong on this website. Good question, since more unrealistic people are commenting here. But you really should redirect the question to all the people who have rated some of my comments as the highest and best, within ROK.
Who gives a shit how people have rated your previous comments? That’s chick-logic 101. This comment sucks. Period.
You have opposed my comment on the grounds that it is just my own anecdotal experience. OK. So is the author’s, and every other thing you have read on this subject. But as regards my anecdote, I am a practicing attorney, from a U.S. law school, in the U.S.
You prattle on about U.K. friends who can’t get jobs in the U.K. Completely irrelevant to the issues facing people in the legal markets here in the U.S. after coming out of U.S. schools. Your point about meritocracy not working (supported by your own anecdotal evidence) is retarded. I didn’t go to a top 10 school (top 20), I was a part time student, I landed a job at a big firm without “knowing someone.” I did it on the strength of my grades and my previous experience in other fields. Meritocracy. In action. And I’m not a boomer.
Moreover, who says you have to work in someone else’s firm? Perhaps its different in the U.K., but here in the states, when you pass the bar, you can start your own practice, on day one. So all this whining about how you can’t land a job somewhere. Boo Hoo. Hang your own sign, take your own cases, and work for yourself. Again, expecting that you are entitled to a job, and not being willing to hustle one for yourself if necessary is completely beta. If your definition of the “job market” is narrowly construed so that it only includes working for someone else, then yes, it’s difficult and terrible. But there are new laws and regulations being passed daily, and tons of people who need affordable legal support that go unserved. If you’re not willing to hustle that business because hustling is not for you, fine, but there is plenty of opportunity if you’re willing to take the “I have to work at a firm or I’m a failure” blinders off.
Your comment sounds a general retreat in favor of going your own way. You take issue with my characterization of this as cowardly as being “according to me.” No. According to any objective person.
Listen, MGTOW keyboard warrior, “you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.” Try not participating in the legal system when feminists decide that they can regulate internet content, criminalize what you have written here, revoke your passport so you cannot travel, and imprison you for your crimes against groupthink. That world is coming unless you fight it.
And your assumptions about “guys like me” not having made any real differences is fucking dead wrong. Who the fuck do you think is protecting the frat guys at UVA from a horrendous abuse of due process? Answer – lawyers. Who is helping to fight, and gaining ground against these college Kangaroo courts by filing suits challenging unjust determinations in courts? Answer – lawyers. Who if forcing Lena Dunham to correct her false rape allegations? Answer – lawyers. Who is pointing out that these Cosby claims are pure, unsupported bullshit? Answer – lawyers? Don’t give the media too much credit – not one word of one of these stories would change one iota if the press wasn’t afraid it would face catastrophic lawsuits – from lawyers – if it didn’t retract and apologize as its gross distortions of truth were uncovered.
You mention that the legal system has been “infested and entrenched” by corrupt SJW types. No shit – who allowed that to happen? Men like me, who are on the front lines trying to stem the tide? Or bitches like you, who saw the growing storm on the horizon but decided to say nothing and go your own way?
Personally, I don’t give a shit if you become an attorney, and I would prefer that people like you not enter the profession. All that would do is enable the continued ascendancy of SJW stupidity. My comment is targeted to men who understand the stakes and are willing to join the fight. If the law is not for you, fine. As I said, I’m all in favor of people getting into it with eyes open to the realities of practice and the financial issues involved. But the fact that it is expensive, or difficult is hardly a cause for all red-pill men to abandon the single most important front in this war. The only things that protect you from the feminist lynch mob are the beleaguered remnants of fundamental constitutional concepts like due process and standards of evidence. When you abandon their defense, it will be open season, and you will be the hunted. And you can’t “go your own way” when there’s nowhere to go.
I vote up based on the individual merit of a comment- not based on who the commenter is. And I would hope everyone else would do the same.
I just upvoted your comment. I think John is a wonderful name and it is in fact true that we are all made of sub-atomic particles.
It is only customary that you should upvote my comment in return good sir kind sir.
Haha, I’ll have to respectfully decline to up-vote your comment. It wasn’t merit worthy I’m afraid. I honestly disagree with most everyone that comments on here regularly, such as yourself. I wouldn’t want it any other way.
I’m taking my upvote back…
John is a common name and your picture is cut off at the bottom.
lol I wish I could upvote your upvote.
“Who gives a shit how people have rated your previous comments? That’s chick-logic 101. This comment sucks. Period.”
-Yeah, according to you.
“You have opposed my comment on the grounds that it is just my own anecdotal experience. OK. So is the author’s, and every other thing you have read on this subject. But as regards my anecdote, I am a practicing attorney, from a U.S. law school, in the U.S.”
-And does your personal anectode excuse the real facts of the USA: there is over $1 trillion dollar in student loan debt and that most law graduates will not be able to secure a job afterwards?
“You prattle on about U.K. friends who can’t get jobs in the U.K. Completely irrelevant to the issues facing people in the legal markets here in the U.S. after coming out of U.S. schools. Your point about meritocracy not working (supported by your own anecdotal evidence) is retarded. I didn’t go to a top 10 school (top 20), I was a part time student, I landed a job at a big firm without “knowing someone.” I did it on the strength of my grades and my previous experience in other fields. Meritocracy. In action. And I’m not a boomer.”
-Wrong. The market place in the UK legal field is just as bad as the legal market in the USA. So its not irrelevant to compare the two, especially when both London and New York are the two financial hubs and power houses of the Western world. While you have made it, it still does not account for the vast majority of law graduates who are coming out with over $100,000 in student loan debt and completing bar exams, only to realise their dreams becoming unfullfilled.
-Also, when you have graduates from Oxford and Cambridge (2 of the best universities in the world, along with Harvard and Yale) having problems securing work, then you start to realise that law school may not be the great investment it portrays itself to be. That is not retarded, but rather worrying for people who want to be lawyers, even when they strive to be the best.
-While you have accomplished your goal and achieved success, it still does not change the fact that meritocracy has no value anymore in the real world. You are simply an exception to the rule. But the rule stays the same- meritocracy has no real value.
-I did not call you a boomer. I simply stated the boomers fucked up the future for millenials. That is the truth.
“Moreover, who says you have to work in someone else’s firm? Perhaps its different in the U.K., but here in the states, when you pass the bar, you can start your own practice, on day one. So all this whining about how you can’t land a job somewhere. Boo Hoo. Hang your own sign,take your own cases, and work for yourself. Again, expecting that you are entitled to a job, and not being willing to hustle one for yourself if necessary is completely beta. If your definition of the “job market”is narrowly construed so that it only includes working for someone else, then yes, it’s difficult and terrible. But there are new laws and regulations being passed daily, and tons of people who need affordable legal support that go unserved. If you’re not willing to hustle that business because hustling is not for you, fine, but there is plenty of opportunity if you’re willing to take the “I have to work at a firm or I’m a failure” blinders off.”
-Start your own law firm? What a laugh. Thats why you have so many lawyers in the US screaming for clients and are recognised as ambulance chasers, and can barely afford to pay the rent, never mind their student loan debt. I don’t disagree about the hustle. On the contrary, I agree about having to hustle and grind in life to get somewhere, but lets be realistic as well. The whole notion of starting your own law firm, reminds of the Simpsons episode, where all the lawyers are screaming at Marge to hire them. If your going to hustle and grind, then better to do it outside the legal profession, since there is more money that can be made. Also, the job entitlement mentality is a product of brainwashing propoganda by the boomers and the 18 years of indoctrination by the school system.
“Listen, MGTOW keyboard warrior, “you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.” Try not participating in the legal system when feminists decide that they can regulate internet content, criminalize what you have written here, revoke your passport so you cannot travel, and imprison you for your crimes against
groupthink. That world is coming unless you fight it.”
-That world is already here war mongerer. In case, you didn’t realise, the US is a police state, with bills like the Patriot Act and the National Defence Authorisation Act all of these laws are already in effect. The feminists are a small part, but government tyranny is the real problem- have you so called war wagers eliminated any of the above? No you have not. No war is worth fighting unless you know in advance, that you are going to win. I hope you know who said that.
“And your assumptions about “guys like me” not having made any real differences is fucking dead wrong. Who the fuck do you think is protecting the frat guys at UVA from a horrendous abuse of due process? Answer – lawyers. Who is helping to fight, and gaining ground against
these college Kangaroo courts by filing suits challenging unjust determinations in courts? Answer – lawyers. Who if forcing Lena Dunham to correct her false rape allegations? Answer – lawyers. Who is pointing out that these Cosby claims are pure, unsupported bullshit?
Answer – lawyers? Don’t give the media too much credit – not one word of one of these stories would change one iota if the press wasn’t afraid it would face catastrophic lawsuits – from lawyers – if it didn’t retract and apologize as its gross distortions of truth were uncovered.”
-And who do you think allows those feminazis to take action against innocent men the courts for false rape? Lawyers. With bills like “Yes Means Yes” and “Rape By Fraud” (and should they come into effect) who decides to interpret them against the innocent victims- lawyers.
-Who are the people that are filing the suits against guys like Bill Cosby and doing everything in their power to destroy more innocent men? Lawyers. Who are the people that advice clients like Lena Dunham to withdraw her statements? Lawyers.
Don’t try to justify lawyers as being the light at the end of the dark tunnel you fucking asshole.
“You mention that the legal system has been “infested and entrenched” by corrupt SJW types. No shit – who allowed that to happen? Men like me, who are on the front lines trying to stem the tide? Or bitches like you, who saw the growing storm on the horizon but decided to say nothing and go your own way?”
-And have fucking lawyers like you made any real difference? The fuck you have. Instead of fighting for any real difference, you bitches just file petitions which do not reach the light of day and carry on with your day like the other lawyers. Spare me your talk about trying to make a real difference. When it comes to making a cheque, from a client, you so called ethical bastards, would do the same thing, by interpreting the same new laws that are being put in place to destroy good people.
“Personally, I don’t give a shit if you become an attorney, and I would prefer that people like you not enter the profession. All that would do is enable the continued ascendancy of SJW stupidity. My comment is targeted to men who understand the stakes and are willing to join the fight. If the law is not for you, fine. As I said, I’m all in favor of people getting into it with eyes open to the realities of practice and the financial issues involved. But the fact that it is expensive, or difficult is hardly a cause for all red-pill men to abandon the single most important front in this war. The only things that protect you fromthe feminist lynch mob are the beleaguered remnants of fundamental constitutional concepts like due process and standards of evidence. When you abandon their defense, it will be open season, and you will be the hunted. And you can’t “go your own way” when there’s nowhere to go.”
-Good. Personally, I would prefer if your profession would just die. Your profession is a blood sucking one filled with parasites who get paid to interpret unnessarily complexed legislation designed to destroy good people. Lawyers do not produce any real tangible products like engineers, but are vampires who, rather than being productive, are destructive. Lawyers do not create laws, but are paid to interpret and enforce them. Your due process and other constitutional rights are being errored and stipped infront of your eyes thanks to fascism and legislation like the Patriot Act and the NDAA. If you still think you can make a real difference, which I seriously doubt you can, go ahead. But the ones who have preserved their money and their sanity by choosing to go their own way (like myself) will be the ones who survive.
Fucking douchebag.
You’re a clown, Kal!
Your comment speaks for itself. I’ll leave it to readers to decide the merits. My choice: fight for a “return” of kings. Your choice: tuck tail and hide in exile like a cowardly bitch for as long as possible because (in you own estimation) the battle can’t be won.
I prefer to die on my feet like a man, not supplicating on my knees while some lesbian makes me suck off her strap-on until she has me thrown into prison, as you would seem content with.
Yep, it’s refreshing to have real discussions and disagreements with other men, instead of just trading insults, snark, and catchphrases like a lot of sites. Roosh’s ban on women was very welcome.
“Your comment speaks for itself. I’ll leave it to readers to decide the merits. My choice: fight for a “return” of kings. Your choice: tuck tail and hide in exile like a cowardly bitch for as long as possible because (in you own estimation) the battle can’t be won.”
-Just like your comment speaks for itself. Yeah you can go ahead and fight a pointless war, while I’ll stick to being smart with my money, investments and assets. I don’t hide, because I know what I’m doing. If you want to call that “tuck tail and hide in exile like a cowardly bitch” go ahead, but the fact is that more men are now walking away. There is a difference between walking away, and running away and hiding. I’ll let you figure that one out.
-Also, I will die with my self respect intact because I choose to live my life on my terms and my own value system, rather than join the collective masses like yourself, on your worthless endevour towards fighting a war that you, are not going to win.
Dude, any time you wag your finger and tell people you’re particularly goodthey’ll blow your shit up and use any sort of female logic to ignore everything you say, turn it against you and have your ass out. Trust me. I went through it very recently.
It’s a good response. You are trying in vain to justify your weasely profession by styling yourself as as some sort of courtroom Beowulf, which is laughable. Lawyers only exist because the guns of the state back them. If the power behind you ever weakens or disappears, your profession will be discarded on the dustbin of history.
If something is evil and immoral, a good man does not participate in it. Other considerations do not even enter the equation such as your mental gymnastics like “I can actually do a lot of good by just doing some initial evil.” SJW is in essence, bullshit. The antidote to it is anti-bullshit, aka simplicity and truth. None of which can be found by men in suits arguing before a dude in a black dress.
Laughably stupid. If the power behind me ever disappears, you will disappear as well. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen anarchy up close, little boy, but I did firsthand when Baghdad fell, and it’s not at all like your naive belief that good men won’t participate in things that are immoral or evil. SJW’s will be eliminated, but so will folks like you. Civilization is a thin veneer that hide mankinds baser instincts because we agree to allow it to. That is built upon the foundation of law. The second that becomes delegitimized, well, I own weapons and know how to use them. You had better as well.
Laughably stupid. If the power behind me ever disappears, you will disappear as well. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen anarchy up close, little boy, but I did firsthand when Baghdad fell, and it’s not at all like your naive belief that good men won’t participate in things that are immoral or evil. SJW’s will be eliminated, but so will folks like you. Civilization is a thin veneer that hide mankinds baser instincts because we agree to allow it to. That is built upon the foundation of law. The second that becomes delegitimized, well, I own weapons and know how to use them. You had better as well.
Also not so sure about your dustbin of history argument. You realize that Lawyers have existed for as long as human history in every civilization, right? Or have you not taken that class in indoctination camp….err ….college yet?
So have cockroaches, but we still hope some day they’ll disappear.
Like a typical narcissist, you assume everyone is beneath you. A disgusting individual.
Nice dodge on your bullshit point.
Every male? Hardly. Basic math proves that’s retarded. Something else you obviously don’t study.
And I question your experience level when you make naive pollyannaish comments that sound like they’re parroted straight from the mouth of some liberal professor who never spent a day in the real world. In other words, I question your experience when you say things that indicate you have none.
Do you dispute my characterization of Baghdad in 2003?
First you say this
“No one cares if you are a lawyer. Your personal anecdote does not account for anyone else’s.”
Then you say this
“The reality is people should listen to people who have a degree or have worked in the legal profession, because they are the ones who know what they are talking about. That is who I take all of my arguments from and use here.””
I take my views from not just one personal anecdote, but from many more people. Perhaps I should have made that more clear.
I can see that you take your views from multiple personal anecdotes, however if these anecdotes don’t fit into your preconceived, idiotic beliefs on roles of lawyers you dismiss them. I went to a T-3 law school, got a job straight out of law school, and have helped tons of people along the way many of whom I worked for pro bono(for free). What have you done to help your fellow man?
I’ve offered advice on many articles on ROK. That is how I helped my fellow man.
I paid my taxes. That is how I helped my fellow man.
I offered reduced rent of my properties to plenty of tenants during hard times. That is how I helped my fellow man.
I have done plenty of charity work and food drives for the poor. That is how I helped my fellow man.
I have offered money to help people with business plans without asking for it to be paid back. That is how I helped my fellow man.
Need anymore?
“I’ve offered advice on many articles on ROK.” is that supposed to be a joke?
“I paid my taxes” congrats! (Otherwise you’d need a lawyer…)
“I offered reduced rent of my properties to plenty of tenants during hard times.” Suspect, but I’ll take your word for it
“I have done plenty of charity work and food drives for the poor.” Whoop-dee-do
“I have offered money to help people with business plans without asking for it to be paid back.” Suspect, but I’ll take your word for it
“I’ve offered advice on many articles on ROK.” is that supposed to be a joke?”
-Why would that be a joke? Thats like saying anything Tom Leykis tells his audience, is a joke.
“I paid my taxes” congrats! (Otherwise you’d need a lawyer…)”
-Funny man aren’t you? Don’t forget- its my taxes that pay for public servant scumbags, politicians and the other parasites in society. So yeah, that definately helps others.
“”I offered reduced rent of my properties to plenty of tenants during hard times.” Suspect, but I’ll take your word for it”
-Wow. Is it hard for you to believe that there are genuine good hearted landlords in this world, or do you believe that we are all evil money barons.
“I have done plenty of charity work and food drives for the poor.” Whoop-dee-do”
-I was probably doing this while you were ruining some poor sucker’s soul in court.
“I have offered money to help people with business plans without asking for it to be paid back.” Suspect, but I’ll take your word for it”
-Is it hard to believe, that there are genuine people like myself that do want to give a helping hand?
So you compare yourself to Tom Leykis, who I assume is some d-bag motivational speaker and then claim its your tax dollars that pay for this and that. No wonder you claim to be superior to lawyers you just have an inflated ego. Case solved!!
You don’t know who Tom Leykis is? You should hang your head in shame.
Im too busy blowing up bridges
What kind of lawyer are you?
I’m currently in law school (in Canada), and I’m planning on staying and finishing my degree. Completely agree re. needing lawyers to fight these battles. What area of law do you work in by the way, and do you have any suggestions for how best to deal with being surrounded by so many SJWs? Thanks,
Employment and labor law. Never miss an opportunity to keep your mouth shut. Don’t pick fights you don’t need to win. If you do pick a fight, stick to rational, logical arguments, no matter what.
Thanks, will do!
During my first ever law job a coworker told me that nearly everyone in law school was a “freak or a weirdo.” He was right. The men were weird, disingenuous and terrible. The women were cold and “professional” by day and stupendously slutty freaks by night. There were maybe five or six who were exceptions to this rule, and most of them started their own practice. I think about that coworker’s advice almost every day.
Right on brother! Great post! Red pill lawyer here fighting the good fight everyday.
I applaud you for the proper analysis of this article.
This article is such dribble I am disappointed it even got posted. I have to ask how old this kid is, I can’t imagine older than 25. The author of this article is just looking for an easy way to get rich, much like his peer group who think the world owes him a living. As a lawyer myself, I am happy and so are all the other lawyers at my firm. We make more money than 95% of our peers and control our own hours. Being a lawyer takes hard work. Good luck finding a job where you can make as much of a difference and/or money than practicing law. Some of my favorite quotes from this kid
“since I am a mean son of a bitch,” That’s so cute of you to say, son
“one of the 5 best decisions of my life,” funny you say this just after dropping out, let’s see how you feel in five years, son.
“human right never to be offended” stop pandering to your readers, son
“I found myself spreading a completely false rumor” Again, how old is this kid?
I can see why you are making the claim he was behaving immaturely, but if he knew he wouldn’t be happy why would he continue to pursue the profession? There are more than enough people, millenials especially, that pursue careers they hate for money and perceived prestige (I’m probably one of them). I think it was a sound decision given the debt burden he would be taking on. If he goes on to become a successful in another career, say plumber, he will have an opportunity to make good money as well.
It was a bad decision for him to go to law school in the first place. His decision to leave wasn’t sound, his choice to take the LSAT and attend as a 1L was idiotic. Articles like these are beyond beta. This guy couldn’t handle the heat of law school and is blaming SJW for not being able to handle a “mean son of a bitch” like this kid. Blaming SJW for all of their ills…doesn’t get much more beta than that
to be fair most should be doing a cba before going to post secondary. society is failing many youth by not having them consider the alternatives. we just push and push and push kids to go to post secondary for no reason other than it use to mean something.
People make career mistakes all the time. He found that he disliked it. Provided he is making this decision based on genuinely not believing he would be happy as an attorney, continuing down a path that he knows is undesirable is not wise either. It’s not like he is quitting a law firm after a year with all his debt. I know people who have made up a lost decade of their career. He can easily make up the one lost year.
Disliked what? Going to law school? You go to law school to be a lawyer. Obviously law school isn’t an end in itself. From what I gather he dropped out because his teachers scared him and he didn’t like his classmates. Doesn’t sound like a “mean son of a bitch” to me he sounds like a spoiled brat
He projected that he wouldn’t like being a lawyer. NO ONE knows for certain whether they will like their job until they are performing it. If he didn’t think he would like being an attorney based on his law school experiences, it’s not a terrible decision to get out. Especially given how he already seems to have an affinity for manual labor jobs that are in demand such as plumbing.
The legal profession became utterly corrupt when the concept of stare decisis was upheld by the Supreme Court. Each case should be judged on it’s standing according to the law, not on past decisions. There are good reasons most of the rest of society likens lawyers to vultures.
Soldiers have made far more of a difference. They always will.
“Soldiers have made far more of a difference. They always will.”
What does this even mean?
That nice civil courthouse where you go in and civilly participate in the ruin of other people’s lives? If it weren’t for soldiers willing to fight others to make that place civil, it would be a place of extreme violence and utter desolation.
Soldier’s actually protect their country, even if those exist who disagree in the way they are ordered to do it. Lawyers can’t even claim to uphold the law.
“Lawyers can’t even claim to uphold the law.” Please, enlighten me by explaining this sentence.
Lawyers have to be willing to argue a point of view no matter how morally corrupt and repugnant that point of view is. The extreme example would be a lawyer that is aggressively defending a serial murder and rapist when he knows the evidence clearly shows his clients guilt. He can claim that he has “done his job” if his client gets away with it. Technically, he may even be right, even if his job was to unleash a monster on society, again. You have to wonder why someone would do that.
Remember the Constitution all of those soldiers are fighting for? We have a Constitutional right to counsel. Under the 6th amendment you have a right to confront your accuser. Let me guess, you believe when a guy is accused of rape he is not worthy of defending himself? Just send the guy away? You should apply to the Rolling Stone you’d fit right in. Additionally, do you know what percent of criminal cases result in a guilty plea?
No, and the Rolling Stone case was tried in the media, not in any court of law. How about someone that struck a bicyclist with his car continued driving for a mile and a half with the bicycle under the car before stopping and throwing the bicycle into some bushes and sending a text that he had just “hit somebody with the car and killed them.”
His lawyer actually argued that the cars passenger mirror being at the scene of the crime and damage on the car matching the evidence that it didn’t mean it was him.
And it is up to the judge and jury to decide if the lawyer made his case. Consider yourself lucky that you live in a country that a defendant will always have counsel (free of charge!) that will defend him to the utmost. Everybody hates lawyers until they need one and then they cry in our arms and thank us for our service.
Not me. I run a business with several employees. I have had three lawyers in the last two years. The first one simply failed to do his job in court, and was fired after we walked out. The second one failed to follow my instructions and file on the matter of a breach of contract and tried to advise me. I am on my third now, he knows I regard him as little more than a hired gun. He seems pretty good so far.
“he knows I regard him as little more than a hired gun.” You get what you pay for.
His pay is above average. So, yeah probably.
drivel, not dribble 🙂
Ha sorry this article got me so worked up I was just ranting haha
When did you go to law school? Because it’s possible that it meant something when you attended. Now you need to go to a top-10 school to get a good job.
I went to a T-3 law school and got a job straight out of school three years ago.
Exactly. Me and all my lawyer buddies quite enjoy life. They claim lawyers are the most depressed and abuse alcohol and drugs like crazy yet I have not run across anybody who I even suspected of having a problem. Not even all my public defender friends who regularly defend rapists and murderers.
Go back in finish your law degree and forget the manoshere, PUA crap, you will thank me in a few years when you have the status, the money and the girls.
bahahahahaha. much like everything that isn’t a trade or requires math, law graduates are oversupplying the market. if by status you simply mean lawyer and not successful then yes that still exists to an extent. the money is only there if you are tops or have connections there are a lot of lawyers out there not doing so well.
“there are a lot of lawyers out there not doing so well.” Thats true of any profession though. If you practice law and develop your craft, there is no reason that at some point in your career you shouldn’t bring in 6 figures. Most jobs have a ceiling that isn’t as high as a lawyer. But it takes WORK. People think lawyers just cash checks all day, but we bust our asses fighting for our clients and truth be told are underpaid for the value we provide our clients.
Now excuse me but I must go to court now to represent an 18 year old girl who has been abused by her ex boyfriend. How can I sleep at night?!?!
im well aware hence my handle. im not from the states, in my location there are serious problems for graduates to find jobs. sure the very top students will get picked up but there are some places where up to 30% are not even getting articles. in my jurisdiction on the cba of it trades are where the money is at.
Amicus, just saw that, nice handle 🙂 Having graduated law school somewhat recently, I can tell you that a lot of the students should not have been there in the first place. They attended for convenience, lack of better options, to please Mom, etc. Especially the women. Anyone that litigates knows women simply are unable to litigate. We read here about sex differences. Nowhere is that more apparent than watching a women litigate. It is cringe worthy and makes you feel sorry for them. But if every prospective student did a cab there would be a lot less lawyers thats for sure.
agree wholeheartedly. I know multiple that only did it cuz daddy was a lawyer and he wants his princess to be one too. they have since stopped working in the field and when they were in it I saw one of them literally in tears, full blown weeping, when opposing counsel refused to consent to an adjournment.
You need to go to an Ivy League law school if you’re gonna get laid off the strength of a law degree.
The world need’s engineers. The world needs physicists. The world needs doctors. The world needs soldiers, miners, pipefitters, plumbers, masons, welders, sailors, and programmers. The two things the world doesn’t need right now are more lawyers and MBAs. Lawyers produce absolutely nothing. MBAs mostly just run profitable businesses that someone else built into the ground.
Then there is the simple fact that if you aren’t graduating from a Michigan, a Harvard, or a Virginia you might well starve trying to work as a lawyer.
Lawyers are just like bankers- they are not productive, but instead, are destructive.
They produce no real tangible goods in society and are simply just a product of the environment which the West has turned into- a service sector economy.
The international banking system functions much the same as a heart. It moves capital around the system. People have always disliked bankers for their way of seemingly producing money out of thin air.
“simply just a product of the environment which the West has turned into” That must explain why there were no lawyers prior to the Clinton Administration. Abe Lincoln was the best plumber in Illinois.
Yes, the founding fathers did make one mistake. They set up the courthouse as the new temple and made lawyers the new priests, granted they were only needed for a few things and most people knowledgeable of the law had little trouble representing themselves in civil matters. Then along came a group of lawyers that wanted to be rich. They made it so that without knowing “case law” a honest man could not represent himself. It was at that point that lawyers stopped being middle class clerics and became stupefyingly rich.
What I mean is that the profession has rapidly manifested itself into one of the supposed “available jobs in the labor market” because all of the real manufacturing jobs have disappeared.
There is a glut and oversaturation of lawyers as a result of people desperately looking for what is available in this service sector economy.
“and most people knowledgeable of the law had little trouble representing themselves in civil matters.” I can’t speak for how it was back in the day, but now a days? Good luck trying to defend yourself. Most lawyers won’t let a client testify let alone handle the whole case without counsel.
I am not generally speaking in a criminal law matter, but in matters regarding civil law when such things were relatively clear. Most lawyers at the time, including Lincoln, were contracted to do things such as produce and file contracts, legal claims to properties, and handle matters such as wills.
The founding fathers were against complex arcane laws and I think the notion of stare decisis would have been an anathema to them.
Without lawyers, you would be unable to enjoy almost everything you hold dear. If you don’t think lawyers produce anything, open your eyes (to your iPhone, to cheap prices due to economies of scale facilitated by mergers of companies, to innovation due to protection of IP, to development of frontier economies through trade regulation etc)
Spare us your ethics about lawyers. The cat is out the bag. Lawyers unlike engineers, are worthless scumbags who produce no real tangible goods or products, but get paid to interpret unecessarily complexed legislation which were all designed to destroy the small man, thanks to government interfering in the once free market.
Mr Burns perfectly described lawyers in The Simpsons:
“You’re all vipers! You live on personal injury, you live on divorces, you live on pain and misery”
Very few lawyers interpret ‘legislation’. Lawyers navigate complexities of both fact and law (statues) to help their clients. Lawyers also facilitate transactions by reducing transaction costs and limiting liability. Your ignorance about what lawyers actually do is both obvious and telling.
you are absolutely correct they should not live off personal injury when a company manufactures a shitty product like faulty breaks or ignition when the car crashes cuz it wont stop or starts on fire. nothing should be done about it just let that person take care of their problems themselves.
they should also stop representing people charged with crimes. no one makes an accusation that cant be substantiated so if you are accused you are guilty. done deal that sure would be a much better world.
I bet your one of those types that misquotes Shakespeare’s line about “first we kill all the lawyers.” maybe you should read that one in context if you have the capacity to do so.
Lawyers do interpret judicial law and statutory law, and must incorporate both in their cases and line of work.
Lawyers also take a huge cut from facilatating transactions which were put into place by unecesarily complex bills and regulations by government (who are the other parasites that are like the mafia.)
You are wrong, If anything, it is you who is ignorant to presume that I am ignorant in regards to knowing about the legal profession.
Yep ^^ the law made byzantine and complex , on purpose, so you have to hire these leeches to interpret these laws at 300-400 bucks/ hour
Look at all the lawyers crawling out from the woodworks to defend their parasitical profession. All of them are in a hissy fit. Its hilarious.
We need more criminal /defense lawyers. Not all law and law specialties are bad but we don’t need any more plaintiff and tax attorneys. Overall we need much less lawyers. As a profession it is a parasitic. Let’s start with taxes. The reason why we don’t have a simple flat tax or consumption is because of the tax attorney lawyer lobby. The ghoulish estate tax aka the “death tax” was fought tooth and nail by the tax attorney lobby. Tax attorneys make their living off an over complex , abusive tax code. The unintelligable tax code actually aids and abets fraud. Culturally lawyers cause immense harm.
The current over-vigilant, hover-mother , nanny state is brought to you by lawyers. The reason why your kid can’t play dodge ball is courtesy of lawyers. The reason why your car has 35 air bags and costs thousands more is because of lawyers. Drugs take decades to come to market because of lawyers. The obviously guilty Maj Nidal Hassan , the Ft Hood shooter has still not been brought to trial. The labor participation rate is at an all time low. You wonder how people are able to not work being and only being in their mid 40’s?? They are getting on disability and are never going to work again. They are going to get lifelong disability payments all brought to by the disability lawyers racket. This over legalization stifling and oppressive .
Has my comment touched a nerve? LOL. I don’t really care how you try to justify the legal profession, but the truth is, lawyers do not give a flying fuck for you, if you were dying on the side of a road, unless you showed them a bag of money with the dollar sign on it.
Lawyers are just in it for the money. None of them give a flying shit about ethics and moral integrity. When I see lawyers, I do not see the prosecutors from SVU, I see Saul Goodman.
Thats how much scum the profession really is.
no nerve just letting you prove you’re an idiot. your line would be better if it was just “________ are just in it for the money.” no one except retards works without getting a paycheck. everyone likes to have shelter and food that takes money . but you keep up with your bad ass self. I am sure you would keep doing whatever your job is if clients and your boss stopped paying.
” no one except retards works without getting a paycheck”
-Does that also include volunteers for charities? According to your logic, they must be retards as well.
oh I am sorry that I forgot to account for your lack of intelligence when people refer to work it is usually a reference to a job other know words used for a similar purpose are career or profession. volunteers are doing those activities after they have worked a job and got paid. (also not the people that run the charities do get paid.) but please continue to deflect like you didn’t know what I mean. that is totally the better tactic then just admitting your a fucktard.
Comparing working at your job and volunteering at a charity. “So whats your profession?”
“I’m a volunteer”
Does this exchange make sense to you trust? Are you beginning to see why you’re an idiot?
“get paid to interpret unecessarily complexed legislation which were all designed to destroy the small man, thanks to government interfering in the once free market.”
This sentence can lead me to no other conclusion than you are just a troll. Your use of the English language makes you an idiot, but your argument makes you a troll
Don’t waste your time with this one. He’ll hate lawyers till the day he needs one to save his ass. Then he’ll sing their praises till he gets the bill. Then he’ll express shock that he’s expected to pay good money for a service he was incapable of doing for himself, and rant about how legal services should basically be free, which tells you all you need to know about where he actually falls on the ideological spectrum – much closer to SJW than red-pill.
It makes perfect sense. Just not according to you and the rest of the parasitical scum.
I’m not deflating. Read your own statement again, you fucking asswipe.
Why? Whats so trolling about this comment? What do lawyers do exactly? Please, tell the the entire world what you leeches do in the office? So all the complexed legislation and bills that are devised by Parliament and Congress, are not interpreted by lawyers, on behalf of their clients?
If anything, it is you that is the fucking idiot. And yes, I know plenty of lawyers who are idiots.
Don’t waste your time trying to defend your profession. You sound like those desperate assholes on Wall Street, trying to defend their profession and how right it was to play around with derivatives.
The cat is out the bag, and the fact is, you lawyers are bottom of the barrel scum.
Oh did I touch a nerve? Bahahahaha
On the contrary. I’m simply responding to your comment.
Dude, shouldn’t you be at an OWS rally?
Yes, lawyers are scum. They’re only the ones stepping in to regulate the banking industry so it doesn’t hurt your poor little feelings anymore. The laws they create, shape and defend are only the cornerstone of civilization. It’s not like there aren’t lawyers on the good sides of the issues.
Are you a freshman in college? Your unthinking liberal indoctrination is showing.
Kindly take your faggoty anti-capitalist marxist nonsense and fuck yourself with it.
Dude, shouldn’t you be at an OWS rally?
Yes, lawyers are scum. They’re only the ones stepping in to regulate the banking industry so it doesn’t hurt your poor little feelings anymore. The laws they create, shape and defend are only the cornerstone of civilization. It’s not like there aren’t lawyers on the good sides of the issues.
Are you a freshman in college? Your unthinking liberal indoctrination is showing.
Kindly take your faggoty anti-capitalist marxist nonsense and fuck yourself with it.
Wrong. Lawyers do not regulate the banking industry, nor do they create the law.
Lawyers are simply pawns, who are out to enforce the law and interpret them, regardless of what their emotions are.
No, I am not a freshman, nor am I a liberal or a conservative. I am a political athiest who chooses to live life by my own value system.
If I was anti- capitalist marxist, I would not have the kind of money I have accumulated over years.
Please go fuck yourself. Your profession should disappear, along with the rest of your ilk.
“Lawyers do not … create the law.”
This alone demonstrates conclusively that you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
40% of the House, and 60% of the senate are lawyers. Every judge in court, where common law is created, is a lawyer. Regulations are drafted by lawyers in the government agencies that pass them.
You can disagree on the merits of the profession. That’s fine. But you are dead wrong on this point.
As to your claims that you have made a lot of money – perhaps so, but that does not mean that you are not a marxist. There are plenty of marxists who are happy to get rich while demanding that everyone else be poor in the interest of fairness.
And if you have made as much money as you claim, then you will almost certainly need a lawyer one day. Because feminists don’t think that’s fair and they’re working to take it from you. How do you plan to protect it?
“This alone demonstrates conclusively that you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.”
-Do you know what you are talking about? While many politicians are lawyers, it is in a lawyer’s official capacity or function to create law. That is the function of the politician. So keep politicians and lawyers seperate.
“As to your claims that you have made a lot of money – perhaps so, butthat does not mean that you are not a marxist. There are plenty of marxists who are happy to get rich while demanding that everyone else bepoor in the interest of fairness.”
-How exactly am I a marxist? You keep throwing the marxist card around thinking you sound like some hot shot libertarian when you are displaying a high level of ignorance. Have you even read the Communist Manifesto?
I simply pointed out that lawyers (in particular, government lawyers) essentially twist the system to produce the results that they want.
Again, lawyers make law all the time. If a politician is a lawyer, then a lawyer is making the law. But the vast majority of our law (speaking here of the U.S.) is made not in political chambers, but in executive agency regulations, and courts, which are the exclusive province of lawyers. Regulations and court precedent in common law countries carry the force of law. There is easily a hundred times as much regulation and common law as there is statutory law. Whenever a lawyer walks into a courtroom, makes a new argument and wins, he is effectively creating new law. You may not like it. You may disagree with it being that way. But that is the way that it is. I am a lawyer who does this for a living, and I am telling you this is how it works. You do not have to take my word for it, ask other lawyers. Being obtuse on this point isn’t helpful to you if you want to understand where the power lies in society and how you can work to change it, or even to avoid it.
I comment that you are a Marxist because a Marxist seeks to undermine the fundamental and traditional structures of society in order to force social change, specifically through a redistribution of wealth. You have been arguing that lawyers and the legal profession are “bottom of the barrel scum.” I can’t speak to any individual lawyer you may have dealt with, and I’m certainly willing to recognize that there are bad lawyers out there, but in painting with your broad brush, you are essentially undermining the cornerstone of civilization – law. Every civilization in human history was built upon law, and has had lawyers to administer, interpret and argue it. That is simple fact. Anyone who speaks in the language you’re using is speaking the coded language of Marx, as filtered through leftist academics who now realize that they cannot openly espouse rank communism, and instead must attempt to devalue and erode traditional institutions by more insidious means – namely by attempting to convince people that these institutions are worthless and should be discarded.
These institutions are not worthless, particularly the law (since it obstructs the change feminists want to impose by dictate). For every thing that you think is misguided, wrong, ignorant, dishonest, or repulsive about the legal system, you should at least acknowledge that there are lawyers standing on the other side of the issue trying to block these outcomes from happening. That they are not always successful does not mean that the entire profession can be attributed with the worst motives. If only one side of the fight shows up, that side wins. That’s why going your own way is a recipe for disaster. If you don’t fight, you automatically lose. This is why I say that red-pill men simply cannot write off the law entirely. There is no choice but to fight unless you are willing to accept whatever feminist lawyers have in store for you. And believe me, they have lots of things in store for you.
But, let’s step back for a second, because you and I are descending into a petty pissing session where we call each other names without really making progress. To recap from your last comment, you and I are in agreement on at least two points: banks should not have been bailed out, and men should do what they can to minimize their exposure to the effects of feminism.
Fair enough. But let’s look at those points with an eye on my original point that got us started in this discussion – the role and value of lawyers.
On banking – bankers fucked up, the market crashed and they were bailed out. In the wake of it, there were calls for increased regulation, and this was implemented. But understand why there are lawyers involved in the first place – because the people demanded it! Moreover, if you draft laws and regulations, who is going to administer and enforce them? Lawyers. I assume that we agree that our society is horribly overregulated. I further assume that you take the position that there are too many lawyers with their fingers in too many pies.
Where you and I likely differ is that you see this as insidious, but I simply see it as a reflection of reality. If there are things lawyers need to do, lawyers will do them. If these things go away, so will the lawyers. But how to make overregulation go away? Unless you do so by violent revolution, you will need lawyers to challenge the laws and regulations on constitutional grounds, win cases that circumscribe the reach of the laws and regulations, or amend/repeal the existing laws and regulations. And if you prefer to do so by violent revolution, fine, but realize that there will simply be a different set of lawyers to write, administer and enforce whatever new laws and regulations you create after you do away with the current ones.
On minimizing the effects of feminism, you say that you have made money, have been smart with your investments, and have avoided marriage and kids. But your investments are hardly untouchable. Based on our conversation thus far, I assume you live in the U.K. I can only speak for America, but I can almost guarantee that the U.K. has analogs to everything I am about to describe.
The IRS can seize your bank accounts and property. The U.S. government can force foreign banks to divulge your information and forfeit your accounts as well – in other words, it does not matter where you run to overseas. If the U.S. government can force the legendarily secretive Swiss banks to open their books, the government can find you wherever you go if it desires to. There is no place to hide your money from the government except under your mattress, and even then, remember the IRS can seize your property (and this is in a county with relatively robust property rights and protections, as contrasted with some of the third world locales where ex-pats may choose to flee). Your only defense, short of violent resistance, is through the courts, aided by lawyers.
On marriage and kids – you can certainly choose to avoid formal marriage, but there are legal mechanisms to recognize “common law marriage” that can subject you to the same consequences. Date a woman for long enough, and you may be surprised what legal rights she has over you. Let a woman falsely accuse you of rape, and see how long you can avoid needing a lawyer.
You have no kids – yet. But a woman can always trap or trick you. Do not trust them. Moreover, a woman can have someone else’s kid, go to court, claim it’s yours, never let you know, win her case, and then hit you with the bill years later. See: http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/detroit/detroit-man-fights-30k-child-support-bill-for-kid-that-is-not-his
Again, who will you turn to for protection from such abuse, short of resorting to violence on your own? Note in the linked story – “He says in hindsight, he didn’t understand the formal legal steps necessary to make things right.” Translation – stepping into court and trying to bungle through things yourself can be disastrous. This man (and men like him) has suffered a tremendous injustice. Is the lawyer who steps up to take his case and defend him (and I have taken similar cases pro bono) “bottom of the barrel scum?”
Don’t take this the wrong way, but I have not read your comment. I just don’t have the energy anymore.
You have your views, I have my views- lets just leave it at that.
But nonetheless, I enjoyed the debate.
You shoul read it. I’m trying to get away from the petty pissing session we were both getting into and refocus. Happy to leave ot at difference of opinion though.
Protection of IP problems
There have been a few recent cases where there have been large IP losses (patent holder losing) and the constant talk of ‘patent trolls’. To me it looks like IP property rights are slowly but surely being rolled back.
Vringo verses Google – VRNG won the case but on appeal two of the three judges said the patent was obvious. This was even after a lower district court, judge and jury all upheld the patent, VRNG had its own experts, a review by the USPTO while the case was going on. If someone like VRNG can’t enforce a patent, who can?
Lol, you point out the existence of patent trolls and a SINGLE case in refutation of my point that lawyers protect IP? Please don’t ignore the millions of patents prosecuted by lawyers, the hundreds of thousands of cases which found for infringement, and international legal regimes spearheaded by lawyers to enforce U.S IP rights in foreign countries.
IP Protection and Viringo v Google case
I think you misunderstand why I cite to that case, why I do think that one case particular illustrates the problem with IP protection and why I think patent protection is essentially dying or dead in this country.
The part that bothers me is that there were a number of
experts that drew up the patents, said the patents were valid, the patents passed a number of levels of review and rereview; only to end up being invalidated after years of trying to enforce them by two judges at an appeal. (The full bench at the appellate court declined to have an en banc review of the
three judge decision. The only hope left for the case is a US Supreme Court review of the case, which I am not expecting.)
To summarize the patents:
In 2012, Viringo bought I/P Engine in 2012. I/P Engine held
patents on search engine methods from Lycos. Viringo sued Google and other for infringing on these methods.
Viringo employed people that used to work for the USPTO as
patent examiners plus have patent lawyers as part of the company. They had a trial in a district court. The judge and jury agreed that there was a valid patent and that the patent was infringed on. In addition, while the case was going on in the district court, Google requested a review of the patents by the
USPTO and that review upheld the patents. Then the case gets to an appeal, and all of a sudden, two of the three judges rule the patent is ‘invalid for obviousness’, because the two judges think that the components of the patent ‘were
just lying around’ and could be brought together by anyone.
What is the point of having a patent, if after years of work
it can be invalidated in an instant by someone that is not really that much of an expert on the matter? What kind of patent protection is there then?
It is not like Viringo/I/P Engine/Lycos could have employed better experts on patents or computer science to protect their idea since the people they had (inventor of the patent, original patent attorneys, current patent attorneys, former USPTO examiners hired by Viringo, USPTO examiners that looked at the original patent when issued and then other USPTO examiners that looked at the patent when a reexam was done) already had the best experts possible.
That is what bothers me about this case and why I think
patent protection is essentially dead in this country. You spend thousands (millions?) of dollars on the patent process, legal fees and court case. At the end of the day, you have done nothing and have nothing. You are out all kinds of money and lost all kinds of time. The only people to get any benefit from
any of this were the people employed by the government arms (USPTO and courts) or the law firms. How does IP protection help or encourage inventors to bother spending time on inventing new things when it can all be taken away after years
of work and all kinds of money?
“I’ve never met a lawyer who didn’t want to change careers”
I have to say, I work (primarily) as a lawyer, and I really like what I do. I make bank, don’t work very hard and have loads of free time. That said, I am a total outlier, and 99.99% of what you wrote is completely true.
Law school attracts the miserable harpy and the bluepill male feminist types and especially SJWs. It’s totally PC and it a lot like high school without the lockers in the hallways. The people you go to law school suck, the lawyers you will work with suck (mostly) and your life will be a dim, purgatorial hell. Given the amount of debt one has to incur (as opposed to when I went) and the job prospects afterwards, (never mind the shitty environment) I can’t recommend to anyone to go to LS unless they’re going to go to work at their dad’s firm afterwards (I knew a few of those guys in LS and they were fairly happy folks, compared to everyone else).
The way to be happy as a lawyer is to either work at a small firm with good people or do what I did which was go in-house, early. That way, it’s not any shittier than any other corporate job, and you get paid a lot. So I did that for a while, and then made myself indispensable, and disappeared. So now I come and go as I please, I like my work, my co-workers (who are mostly not lawyers although even the few lawyers I work with are cool) and so I wouldn’t trade it for anything other than being independently wealthy.
But yeah, for 99.999999999% of law schools grads you are completely right.
Mistral
I found my way into the judiciary after five years and it rocks. Be the decision maker.
What is your opinion on corporate law at Sullivan & Cromwell?
This clip makes me laugh because the response Ben Affleck gives is true.
Let me get this straight. Loser that goes to a third-tier law school blames students in said law school for becoming a shitty person, and subsequently drops out when embarrassed.
Stop being such a fucking whiny loser. You dropped out of law school because you were weak. You were not able to succeed socially because you refused to use social acumen. You blame others for your failures because you are immature.
Like everything else in life, if your gonna do it, you gotta do it right. Go to Harvard, Yale, or Stanford Law school (or another top 10 on scholarship), do well, develop a adaptive social acumen, and go from there.
Or you can be a rural lawyer dealing with deed-in-lieu. Whatever.
Or, be a good looking female with big tits, offer unlimited blowjobs to the board of directors, and the world is your oyster.
Or, since the board of directors is most likely made up of pussy whipped betas, a good looking female could probably get away with just making them THINK they were gonna be getting blowjobs. Then… when they come to collect on their blowjobs, threaten them with a sexual harassment lawsuit; effectively securing her employment at said firm indefinitely. Ain’t feminism wonderful?
I went to a T-3 and I’m now a judge and making a decent but modest salary. Going to a top ten isn’t that big of a deal if you aren’t looking for a big law job.
Exactly. If, however, you are willing to stick out biglaw for 5 years then bounce in house, 100k+ can be worth it.
I went to a T3 school and got a job straight out of law school as well.
Still amazed that pillars of society (judges) read ROK. Makes me believe there’s hope for America.
Friend of mine graduated from UConn Law School back in the 90’s. I have no idea what it’s reputation is, but I do know it’s not Harvard, Yale, etc.
He worked his ass off at everything he’s done in his life. His education and career are no exceptions. He’s now lead attorney or general counsel (or whatever the head of the legal dept is at company…it’s some fancy title I can never remember) of a decent sized company. It’s not a Fortune 500 company, but it’s not a small company by any means. He’s done very well for himself.
Top level school is not required. It can help, but once you get in the real world, there’s other factors besides where your diploma is from.
Years ago, there was an obvious trend of more kids in Law School than practicing attorneys. That is obviously going to lead to a monstrous oversupply of lawyers at some point.
Only the best, hardest working ones will get jobs now. The ones who planned to coast through school and get a cushy job because of their degree are going to be disappointed.
It makes sense that law students are so concerned with reputation and fleeing from anything that could be controversial. Lawyers aren’t just people who are good at logic and interpreting the law and arguing. They are members of a legal culture made up of lawyers and judges. Personal rapport between lawyers and judges is a crucial part of how the system works. My dad is a lawyer. He does medical malpractice, personal injury, etc. He knows enough about divorce law to practice it. But if he started taking cases he would be at a serious disadvantage because he’s never been in a family court before, so those judges don’t know who the fuck he is. Since constructing a non-controversial persona and maintaining “friendships” with boring people is a must for a lot of attorneys, I was not interested in law. All of my dad’s attorney friends are boring people, and I could just tell it was because they were dependent on being a part of the legal culture and they were subject to weird standards of ethics and conduct.
Good article. It makes sense to get off a path that is soul-destroying. I’m not sure how old the writer is though: a certain type of young man finds disillusionment everywhere.
Lawyers charge by the 5 minute increment. Not even hookers get away with that. lol
I’m a Law Student in Brazil, and althrough I have quite good teachers and my peers aren’t that bad (they’re ok people, its just I cannot into socializing with them, most of them come from different social backgrounds than me – I’m lower middle-class, they’re mostly wealthier than that. Also, most are quite boring, unsociable persons), I’m preparing myself to quit at the end of this year (tried already, but failed at the exam cuz I had only a month to study) and transfer to another course. I’m happy you quit, Blair Naso, that was a bold decision.
I entered Law because I heard it was a well-paid field without mathematics (which I’m not good at) and with lots of reading (which I like)… except the reading is soul-hollowing ultra-ass boring shit. That shits takes out of your will to study, and so I’m quite delayed on the course.
Law is such a fucking soul-draining thankless shit field, no thanks. My discovery that there are more law schools in Brazil than in the rest of the world PUT TOGETHER + my research of the current market for law (its horrible) + the fact I will never be able to get my own law firm just clinched it for me. Fuck that, bye Law. I’m going to get me into a more promissing, useful field of work.
I’m going to do the next two semesters just to keep in Uni (and get some internship money), then transfer course (course decision pending, I did Computer Science this year but failed at the exam) and the while I will study for the course transfer exam and for public service exams (Public Service is p. much the only avenue for a good middle-class job in Brazil).
Bear in mind I study in a Federal University, and public University is free here. I would never get hundred thiousands of dollars (or reais) in debt just to get a law diploma, you gringos be crazy yo.
When I was looking at grad schools, law was my first choice before letting myself get talked out of it by lawyers I knew who hated their profession.
I sometimes still think I would have enjoyed it, because my goals were far less noble. Only through law, or stand-up comedy, do you get the legal and socially respectable way to be a total asshole to anyone who annoys you. In many fields, tort, divorce, etc. your entire goal is to make life insufferably miserable for someone else, primarily for your client’s enrichment and ultimately your own. Frequently, you’ll find that these people actually deserve the flood of legal harassment.
Ah well, mistakes were made
Good work man, I should have dropped out but never did. If you want to be drowning in debt, working 60hr weeks at a bare minimum, and be surrounded by fucking sociopaths then law school and being a lawyer is right for you. I only plan on working in the law for a few years so i can save up and start investing in something else, the legal field is imploding and everyone knows it, including the law school scam artists, err i mean deans.
No matter the income, no matter the ‘prestige’, a bitch is a bitch.
As a partner in a law firm and a former Marine, I just laugh at this pussy.
You are “too mean a son of a bitch” to be a successful lawyer? Hahahaha.
Everybody knows that the best courtroom lawyers are clinical sociopaths who would make the writer of this article go run crying that a big, bad SJW got him.
Like an earlier commentator said, quitting law school and blaming it on being so much of a bad ass the SJW’s at law school made him leave is maximum beta hamsterization bitching.
Like so many guys I know who washed out of boot camp and rationalized it by saying the services are to”beta” for an “alpha” like them, aka “I’m too mean a son of a bitch to be turned into USMC hamburger.
Nothing wrong about washing out–law school and the Marines aren’t for everyone.
Just don’t write an article sounding like Eliot Rogers complaining on PUAHATE.com complaining how you are so special and no one can handle your greatness.
How long have you been a lawyer?
The reason I ask, is that I
think you went to school years ago (20+ I would guess) and things were
different. When I was at law school, early 2000s, it was clear that
voicing the ‘wrong opinions’ would get you isolated from the rest of the
student body and eventually, in trouble. I never became a lawyer, but I
am not aware of any of my classmates that did better in their legal
field than their job prior to law school.
You also mention that
you are a partner in a law firm, so you are a ‘part owner’ and not as
vulnerable as someone who is just starting out. (Although I was
surprised to run across an article describing how a partner got
fired/laid off from a large law firm so even becoming a partner was
still vulnerable to that.)
Thanks for the article. The bottom line is that to be a lawyer you must embrace the evil doctrine known as moral relativism. Lawyers are willing to ruin lives because people more powerful say it’s ok to do so. I personally would not be friends with a lawyer nor would I ever associate romantically with one. The guy sweeping the floor has more integrity.
You dropped out because you couldn’t hack it. Same in med school. I’m sure there is a place for you somewhere. But the professional schools call out a different sort.
Hey, Evan Wilson, you actually had some pretty good insight and nailed my situation pretty good. I became an attorney 23 years ago, and as a name partner I am insulated from pc crap. Although I have been sued by former employees. A front desk female supervisor was fired at my firm for sexually harassing female subordinates (You heard that right.)
Anyway, she sued my firm and me personally under the theory that we discriminated against her on the basis of her being a lesbian, alleging we would have been fine with heterosexual harassment, but fired a lesbian for homosexual sexual harassment.
Resulted in a confidential settlement. We attack dogs get bit too. Easier and cheaper to settle than litigate
When I started the firm was 90% male. All the partners are male. But now about 80% of the attorneys are women.
There is nothing I would like to do more than hire some intelligent, hardworking male attorneys. A belief in men’s rights is a bonus. But if there are any, I can’t find them. Where the fuck are the men nowadays? I really, really want to hire good male attorneys. Let me say that again. I can’t find a good male specimen. If I saw him I would offer him a job and try to start getting the estrogen out of the firm.
I feel like a Roman citizen from the republic/glory days of Rome fast forwarded to the fall of Rome. How the hell did the country go to hell in 20 years?
Most of the shitty things people say about attorneys have a good amount of truth in them.. But a good percentage of people who complain about attorneys are pretty good sized scumbags themselves. About the same amount of attorneys suck as do doctors, pilots and contractors. (OK, maybe I can admit that we attract a few more butt-heads than other fields.)
Actually, the prestige and money of being an attorney started to nosedive when the women came in and decided to negotiate everything instead of litigating -because they wanted everyone to be happy and nobody be a loser. Took the profession right down into the toilet.
Anyway, let me say this—if you think nobody respects real men, you are kidding yourself. Stay in shape, have courage, simple living, self discipline. You will get ahead. I gained 60 pounds, a mortgage, bad marriage and divorce. Moped around for a couple of years. Dropped the weight, do 50 pull ups, 100 push ups, 100 burpees and run the stairs every day. I would like to lift but simply can’t with the crushing work hours. If I was still married and the kids not in college I couldn’t do that. I did pay very, very heavily for where I am.
The problem with women in law, is that when I came in and the field was masculine, we all knew we were sacrificing our own lives to be successful providers with houses in the suburbs, nice cars, private schools and wives who didn’t work.
With all the women who came in we had to totally revamp how work was done, and what hours were worked. Because unlike us men, the women attorneys assumed they could be successful and have great home lives, time off, work on their own quality of life. Unlike us men, they think or assume they can be successful attorneys and have a great personal life. We knew we were giving up our own lives. To be a success and to be a provider.
Shit, maybe I was wrong. I learned a lot. Went red pill but didn’t even know there was a pill till I got frivorced.
Just don’t be a pussy. Too many of those. Maybe dropping out is smart. God knows a shit load of you are doing it. For heaven’s sakes, at least 25% of you young men drop out of nice 4 year colleges the first or second semester because you don’t have the f****** cojones to get out of bed and make it to your classes without mommy making sure.
I had an 0830 conference in Los Angeles today. A 1330 conference in Van Nuys. Just got back from a client dinner that went on for four hours at a top steak place downtown. Tomorrow is a firm lunch and another client happy hour in Pasadena.
Had 5 hours sleep a night all week from a week that went like that. Couldn’t work out today but have the prior 6 days in a row. I don’t expect any sympathy for having to take clients to games, shows, Vegas and dinner while maintaining a case load. But the effect is insidious and debilitating in ways that aren’t obvious.
So you guys tell me—why aren’t I finding any men any more who will do this? We have one other partner and me. We are both guys. 18 associates. 6 are men. We two male partners and 6 female associates took the clients to the Palms tonight. The guy associates stayed home after their tough day.
Men who won’t do this. (take out clients)
Assuming that you are paying well, it is a problem that you have men that won’t join the group to take the clients places. It looks bad for the firm.I would consider in a firm like yours that it would be understood and expected for people
to take the clients places. I would also expect the men would want to
go out since it gives them more time to ‘look better’ for the partners.
Part of it is an opportunity to talk more with the clients to understand
them and the other part is so the clients will feel they know your
people better and trust them. All of this helps the firm’s business.
I can only assume that the guys are not being allowed to because of what
people will say to them at home or outside of work. I expect the problem
must be spouses will will not allow them to go out with clients for
fear that there will be some major partying. I also suspect that their
spouse/girlfriend are starting to hit the wall in terms of looks (or
have already crashed hard into said wall) and fear any kind of
competition.
As an example, my brother, two of his friends and myself get together once per year, usually the Friday before Christmas. We have done this the last 5 or 6 years. One of the people had their wife interfere with them spending the day with the group. In 2012 he had to ‘go home early’ in case anything happened. That was the year of the Myan Calendar stupidity.
Another year she called him every 20 minutes all day because she made reservations on a day that most of the extended family was not going to be around. Now mind you, he TOLD HER to not make reservations until they knew when everyone would be available. He trys to be reasonable and understanding, which of course, as we all knows, does not work at all. This year we do not expect to see him at all since he changed jobs and was not able to get here until after Christmas, at which time the other person will not be in the area.
Just for the record, it is not like we are going out to a bar and getting
into a bar fight or something like that. We usually go to lunch and then
a new release of a movie. After that we go to my brother’s house the
the rest of the day. Until a few years ago, his wife would ‘not allow’
myself or his friends over the house but she relented the last few
times. In the prior years we had to meet at my apartment.
Damn man, call me if you’re ever in NYC. Red pill lawyer here.
Jesus, with all the data available now, what in God’s green earth were you doing thinking about law school? Regardless, glad you got out – smart move!
Here in the UK at least, I always got the impression that most of the people who studied law at Uni were just nerds who weren’t good at math. Pointless really, unless they went to the TOP institutions. I did about as good as I could in my A-levels and went to imperial college to do engineering. Most smart people in the UK decide to study hard math and science for medicine/engineering/comp sci because A-levels force us to specialise more before age 18, although many law schools probably consider a math or chemistry A-level to be the best, I know people at top law schools who did science A-levels, but it isn’t the natural progression, if you took those subjects it’s because you wanted to be a doctor or an engineer. I think that Law should be more like medicine here in the uk, less law schools/degrees at less institutions, and you basically have to have the highest grades to get into said institutions. I think part of the problem with law in the UK, is that arty subjects in general have a bad rep all through school up through university…..I think if subjects like English literature, history, philosophy etc were taught in a more interesting way+ examined to a higher and more masculine standard at the secondary school level the standard of lawyers would be higher. And those are the main kind of people going into law these days. When I left school for university at age 18 I hadn’t written an essay or read a book for more than two years, let alone have any debating skills. Even though I was arguably the smartest person in the school. So science/tech seemed like the only sensible option.
It seems like law school in the US is a much “bigger deal”, more money involved in the career, and many more of the smartest people aspiring to reach of that particular profession.
True in the US too. They are usually at least one of three things: 1) not smart enough for med school, 2) too proud to do blue collar work 3) no balls to attempt anything else.
Well, all I can say is, before you enroll for your fırst year, make sure you get a doctor or psychologıst to desıgnate you as havıng a “learnıng dısabılıty.” Because Law Schools are afraıd of gettıng sued for dıscrımınatıng agaınst the dısabled, law students wıth wrıtten proof of “learnıng dısabılıtıes” are gıven ENTIRE AFTERNOONS (6 hrs) to fınısh an exam (that the rest of the student body must complete ın 2hrs), ın thıer own prıvate classrooms. But ıt gets better, these “dısabılıty” prıvıleges contınue when ıts tıme to take the Bar Exam ın your state. I had a frıend my 1st year who was dyslexıc who breezed through 3 years wıth these perks.
If you can’t get the Retart Stamp fast enough before the school year starts though, make sure you have access to rıtalın, speed, cocaıne, all those medıcatıons because most assuredly your CLASSMATES wıll defınıtely be usıng them.
If you have moral ethıcal ıssues about doıng these thıngs than you wıll get BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER because you wıll fınd yourself surrounded by people WHO wıll do ANYTHING to get the best grades.
Imagıne the WORST people you knew ın Hıgh School and college, the people you could not stand to be around- you are SURROUNDED by them ın law school. They OWN the Place.
(My happıest tıme ın law school was when I spent an entıre semester off campus ın Egypt, clerkıng ın a law fırm ın Cairo, ımprovıng my Arabıc language skılls, and hookıng up wıth slutty Coptıc chıcks ın downtown Heliopolıs and Zamalek!)
Learning the law is up there with economics and the dynamics of many things. These big picture concepts are useful to grasp because they give you the power to understand and take over the world. That’s right I said “take over the world” lol.
Every description you have given of law students can be applied to med, science, business, etc. students. The reality for the millenial generation is that people are absolutely desperate for social status. It is a real problem. The situation at college is really because of the women. I am not being some bitter misogynist here, either. Studies have shown that women are at least twice as perfectionistic as men. The entire school environment has changed, from being about learning and intellectual inquiry, to being a massive shitshow of mindless drones trying to follow a cookie-cutter formula to perfect grades. And it is obvious that women, who demand and consume massive amounts of tutoring and outside help, as well as pestering the hell out of teachers, are the force that drives this change. It is insufferable.
But, please do not give up on grad school. Remember that not all law grads go into law. Many get employed by businesses or government, and they get paid great. Look at employment 1, 2, 3 years out from any grad school (if you can) to get a good feel for the value of the degree.
And being a plumber will certainly have disadvantages. It seems that law school is not a good plan right now for you, but keep the options open for the future. Eventually, you will hopefully get to a point where you REALLY don’t give a shit about the people around you, and then you might like some kind of knowledge-based job, even though the people will be lame blue-pillers. The fact is that the status whoring and political correctness makes it hard at times for regular people to get along with the highly educated/indoctrinated.
Whatever you choose, I’m sure you will be alright, so don’t worry too much about it, and keep your chin up.
I think this “writer”/ “hack” should get a burger flipping job.
Sorry to hear you were too dumb to know not to go to law school in the first place, in addition to being too dumb for law school.
southerners are so useless
THIS is the article I’ve been looking for. As a regular reader of ROK for the last 4 years I am surprised I never saw this.
I am currently three months into my first semester and while the work is tough, I find that like you, the prospect of following this career path and turning into an utterly miserable person is not one I want to take.
While I find aspects of the law interesting, the thought of doing it for the rest of my life is setting off alarm bells.
Naturally my parents are outraged upon learning that I might abandon this “secure” path to riches and job security, but that is also an illusion.
Like you said, the people you meet at law school can often be the worst people and can turn essentially good people into hyper-competitive, back-stabbing freaks. I won’t miss it.
Law school is basically learning to beat them at their own twisted unnecessary game.
” They will dump you at a moment’s notice based on a rumor no matter how close you have been. The demands for a clean reputation and the ease of falling into ostracization mandate that they have an exaggerated view of others as commodities. They spend so much energy building contacts but cannot afford to have any friends. ”
Sorta like Hollywood, but there the concern is not with “moral failings” as with how well or badly the last thing you worked on performed monetarily, and so forth. You could be screwing Chihuahuas and snorting coke outta the butt-crack of a mongoloid whore in the alley behind the Circle K and as long as your last project made money, you’re in. If you haven’t sold anything in a while, you might as well have Ebola.
Some years ago, I was working as an operations manager in a tech support department for a global IT corporation. The phone support agents in my department made about ten dollars an hour, and I was shocked to discover that one of them had graduated law school. I don’t have a degree at all and was making about four times more than this guy who was working for me. I asked him why he wasn’t working as a lawyer and he told me that there’s really no money in it these days if you don’t have high-powered connections
Wow. I remember reading this in August before the start of my first semester and thinking,”no way law school is like this.”
Now, a week before my finals I can relate to everything, from the story about getting the girl’s digits to having a professor(s) who is 50 shades of Hillary.
Yeah….my grades will tell me whether I want to stay or not….
Make more money breaking the law. Then when / if do need a lawyer, it’s just for him to get burned with dates as you gaslight the entire proceeding. Then at the end of the day when the judge asks if your satisfied with your representation you just say ” not exactly.” Lulz hope want to get a new law written cause that’s the only way this case is getting closed.
You don’t want to be a lawyer.
Well, in France, university inscription costs +- 2000 euros a year (1900 dollars). It may not get you anywhere, it’s also plague with marxists, but at least it doesn’t cost you an arm to study
Problem is, our best students go to …foreign countries when they got their degree.
So you may have to compete with a person that isn’t near bankrupt and a strong education…
Actually just finished my first semester of my masters program for “Community health” and I’m not going back. I’m starting to smell the bullshit in alot of the things that I am being taught. For as sure as science likes to sound there is a scary amount of guess work that goes on in a lot of government regulations (OSHA, NRC, and EPA standards). There is also no real way to actually help people because you are simply a regulation enforcer and the government does not really give a shit about improving them. Worked as a graduate assistant and helped a professor conduct a study on WIC user’s spending habits (Basically bullshit study created to make 100k off the USDA). It’s getting published so I got the general idea of what it’s like to be a “scientist” and it was pretty much bullshit. Most of the professors are only professors so they can get grants to do these “studies” and lead their students on about ideas of high paying jobs that require you to have 5+ years experience after you get your masters (10+years) to even get a foot in the door. (Most jobs the field offers are around 30-40k minium- 70k max which for 7 years of school seems low) Once you reach that point you find that all these good jobs are taken because the people who have them never retire and even if they do they use the good ol’ boy system to past the job to someone else (Could even be their children in some cases). Would also like to add I was one of 2 of my graduating class and graduated with a 3.5 so I’m not just bitching because i didn’t try haha
I don’t get the US college system. I studied medicine for 6 years in germany and I was debt free immediately after because I was working part time in a retailer market. I know some studies are very hard and don’t give you any opportunity to work but a six digit debt? seriously?
Your college degree costs six digits, whether you pay for it, or the taxpayers do.
Well sir I prefer the tax payers money then…
Before you make a life decision like that, you need to do some serious legwork. If you cant decide what to do, take some time off after high school, and travel a bit. I see so many kids go into college and get a stupid degree because they did it before they knew what to do.
Out of high school, I spent 4 years throwing lumber in sawmills. I lived for the weekend, traveled a bit, and developed my game. When the time was right and I decided what I needed to do with my life, I did it.
I went to law school back in 89. Dropped out after one semester. I’ve never regretted that decision. It didn’t fit my personality. I went into Law enforcement instead, being around criminals and Lawyers for the last 25 years, I have met very few lawyers I could respect. I find the criminals to be much better people.
“I find the criminals to be much better People.”
LOL. My father is retired LEO and said the same thing. He particually hated the public administration flakes at the state capitol.
It’s funny that this article would be pulled up from the archives. I just started my first semester of law school, and finals are being held in the next two weeks. This is what I have to say about everything:
1. Law school is horrendously expensive. To much so. One semester at my law school was more than my ENTIRE master’s program at UCF. One damn semester. I can’t imagine how the next 8 or 9 are going to be.
2. Law school is challenging, but it is not what stresses me out. What stresses me out is the fact that I am going to end up with crushing student debt. I know what I am getting myself into, but I genuinely want to practice law one day (property or intellectual property), so I am attempting to justify the debt with my aspirations.
(I always write down my goals at the end of every month to remind myself what I am working towards, and I write down my goals and ambitions with the next five years in mind. This semester, after having taken into account law school debt, I had to push all of my goals down another five years: buying a home, buying a newer car, starting a family and trying to shoot for a successful marriage…that will easily be delayed another five years on top of the five years to begin with.)
3. The law is open to interpretation. This is a no-brainer, but this is what makes law school challenging. One professor thinks a certain way, another thinks something different, and trying to align my beliefs and pragmatism with their fact patterns and tests means somewhere my reasoning is going to be called into question. Further, the professors have incentives to be notoriously difficult with grading. This is because students lose their scholarships if they fall below a 2.6 G.P.A., so my theoretical contention is that the professors – by way of the administration – are encouraged to be difficult graders so that the students can fall victim to the bell curve and lose their scholarships, and thus, pay full sticker price tuition.
4. The job outlook for lawyers is abysmal. This is further compounded by elitist ranking systems for law schools. If you are not attending a top-tier law school (think the Ivy leagues like Yale, Harvard, Chicago, etc.) or the top law schools in your state (which I’m not) then you are going to be in the job market for a very, very long time. And when you do find a job, you won’t be starting out with a 6 figure paycheck. Hell no. You’ll be lucky to be pulling in over 60 K.
5. The bar exam has become an all-or nothing endeavor. It’s expensive enough just to afford the material or prep classes to study for the dang thing. And if you fail the first time through, then you are SOL. No law firm is going to want to hire someone who didn’t pass the bar the first time through. This amount of stress leads to many depressed post-law graduates. In matter of fact, a recent graduate recently committed suicide after finding out he didn’t pass the bar. And he had the whole world ahead of him.
6. I can’t help but feel that nowadays law schools, alongside many other higher institutions of learning, are the next ITT Techs of the world. I am very much inclined to believe that there is predatory practices going on to get students to enroll.
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So with all this being said, this is how I suggest people plan on handling and succeeding in law school.
1. Aim for the best possible law school you can go to. If it’s not in the top 20, then aim for the top 50. If not, then go to law school if you have a significant amount of scholarship money to do so.
2. If you are unable to go to a great law school, but insist on going nonetheless, then go part-time and work full-time to keep the debt at a manageable level. The night-time schedule can be done along side an 8 to 5 job. It’s not easy, but if you’re hungry enough, you’ll get it done. This is what I believe the vast majority of law students should do. Going to law school full-time is financial suicide if it isn’t done at an elite law school. So don’t bother doing law school full-time if you can work and get a law degree at the same time.
3. Don’t focus on getting A’s. I realize this sounds counter intuitive, but the people you meet through law school (judges, lawyers, other peers, politicians) can significantly expand your network, and in my opinion it is better to know people who can open doors for you than busting your ass for top grades. Make expanding your network your top priority. B’s will be enough to keep your scholarships, and that’s what matters in the end.
4. Do your research. Websites like lawschooltransparency.com are a tremendous resource for information. Be informed of all your choices. Know the pros and cons inside and out, and seriously take the time to ponder whether this is for you.
So with all this being said, this is how I suggest people plan on handling and succeeding in law school.
You haven’t even completed one semester of law school without excessive whining, yet you believe you are already seasoned enough to dole out advise on how to succeed in law school?
Cut your losses and drop out ASAP. I am not even trying to be facetious here. However, if you insist on accumulating even more debt for awhile before your eventual drop-out, do NOT EVER HAVE SEX WITHOUT A CONDOM. Because some girl will be fooled by your false bravado and have you will have her convinced she has a chance of marrying a soon-to-be hot-shot lawyer who will be making LOADS of money. And then oops! Guess what? You are gonna be a daddy sooner than you thought.
This article brought a tear to my eye. You are one mean son of a bitch. Good for you!
Any career; you have to have the end in mind. What does your day look like and will you be happy at it? Dropping out based on this drivel is immature.
I looked at law school- but in the end; its nights, weekends and marketing your practice. I didn’t want to do that. It might be glory to have a practice at 30 years or partner etc.. but I want 8-5 with little stress. Just be honest with yourself. Everyone is different. This guy going to plumbing school; he might not make it as he may have no mechanical aptitude and never picked up a wrench in his life. You thinking plumbing is easier? LOL .. .You go to jobs sites all across your state and deal with non-paying rude people. As well as nights, weekends etc depending on what type of company you are or work for. It might not fit everyone.
You mentioned one of your professors being an awful bitch (I’m paraphrasing) and when you ranted about her, the female students would say “yeah, but have you seen her credentials?”.
That is a microcosm of one major problem with society as a whole. We have a tendency to put on a pedestal people who are successful in one way or another and ignore their glaring shittiness.
This would accurately explain why everyone I know who is going to law school is a psychopathic, backstabbing pseudo-feminist who hasn’t had a boyfriend since high school…
Let them rot.
Originally went to college to be a lawyer, in my eyes it was a credentialed and prestigious field.
Had a few fraternity brothers do it, don’t regret not going. I had a roommate whose father was an attorney both him and his father utter sacks of human shit.
I discussed law with my family at one point and was pretty black pilled on it. Family has been CEOs, Doctors etc but only thing no one has been is an attorney. They showed the math, the numbers, the stories of “how many lawyers left law and worked at their business”. I have time in the armed forces and could go for free. I am electing to just do MBA instead. While over saturated also, networking piece is there due a different nature of the environment.
Don’t regret not going. Law can be worth it, perhaps if one goes to a T15 school, other than that I wouldn’t bother with the cost. Law school is one of most lucrative verticals of the money machine that is higher ed. I have a few contacts that were saddled with 160K+ from undergrad and then strapped another hundred some on the back end loan wise with law school. There is simply too many IFs and subjective components to gauge post grad employment. I know schools don’t necessarily limit you but you better top of the crop to land that solid firm role. Then you have what, thousands of billable hours to make partner? Then your wife is fucking the pool boy and you are balding/miserable.
I went into banking, hated it. Now I do start up pieces within energy. I have lawyers I use now that I know and trust. Even they hate most other lawyers.
Do a business on your own terms and produce something. Own the means of production.
Back in the 1700’s, Adam Smith wrote “Wealth of the Nations”, considered the first important text on economics. He wrote that even then, studying to become a lawyer was a bad deal, a net loss, compared to becoming a tradesman.
Give me that $165,000 in school loans and I’ll triple it in a month and we can split the profit…
It’s also become more difficult to make partner at a law firm than it used to.
So even if you’re one of the few who happen to land a legit attorney job after graduation, odds are you’ll be an associate for a few years then discarded since they wont want to make you partner.
Every person I know who want to law school practiced only for a couple of years and quit due to lack of clients (usually became a teacher or some other public job). The US has a lawyer for every 25 Americans last I checked, so the market is flooded. As a consequence this is why we have become such a litigous society– starving lawyers trying to generate some revenue.
Good job, Blair. You sound like a good and wise man.
but from what I’ve seen, they are almost always either “fun” fields like
child advocacy, sports, or entertainment, or “clean” fields like tax
law or prosecution.
Women, in general, like things clean and absolute as they don’t typically do well with “out of the box” abstract thinking. This is why very few become entrepreneurs.
She had all the smugness of Hillary Clinton without any of the charisma.-A new favorite writer.
Honestly, I am stealing that line! Sue me. Hahahahaahhahaa
To your class of future cocksuckers, and anal tongue inserters, go to hell. But I repeat myself. Enjoy the debt.