Two Common Objections To Game

Writing regularly for Return of Kings, I notice two objections to game that come up frequently in the comments section. I thought it would be useful to discuss them both in detail and relay my thoughts on them.

1. “Game pumps girls’ egos and inflates the price of pussy”

Some guys, whenever they read an article that advises approaching women frequently in order to get good or to maximize your chances of success, will argue that doing so is counterproductive. Women’s egos are sky high with constant Facebook and Instagram likes, Tinder matches, and so on. This is why they are frequently bitchy and entitled. Approaching ad nauseam simply increases their entitlement, worsening their attitude and consequently making it harder for other guys to get laid.

If we stopped feeding girls’ egos through game, the argument goes, then they would be less in love with themselves and some balance would be restored in a sexual marketplace that is spiraling out of control.

It is slightly odd how in a community where many men would suckle on the withered teat of Ayn Rand herself, so enthused are they about the “every man for himself” principles of self-determination in business, that when it comes to women, a much more egalitarian, socialist ideal is insisted upon. “Men shouldn’t fuck one another over,” we are told. “Don’t stroke girls’ egos unnecessarily and make it more difficult for everyone else.”


Would you approach?


Now, I am certainly not one for sabotaging other men’s efforts – quite the contrary – but to me this is baloney.

For one thing, hot girls are validated constantly from their teenage years until at least their late-twenties anyway. Imagine for a second being a sexy twenty-three-year-old walking down a subway platform, all those eyes flicking in your direction, heads turning, smiles. Yes, social media may arguably have exacerbated the problem, but I remember the days before Facebook, and believe me, cute girls still thought they were the shit.

The vast majority of men are unable to help giving out some sign of their attraction, even if only on a subliminal level. And girls are highly attuned to picking up on the smallest physical and social cues. Trust me – letting her know that you’re into her by approaching is a drop in the ocean.

And even if it did make a difference – how many guys do you think are actively out there in the field taking action on the stuff they read on ROK and other sites? It’s a distressingly small proportion. I think Krauser estimates that only 5% of men who come into contact with game material do anything about it, and even fewer practice consistently.


In London where I live you can observe the hardcore daygamers out in force on Oxford Street doing “Yad stops” (Google it) and whatever else. But in other districts women hardly ever get approached. I have long told people that the tube is a goldmine for pick-up, and it is – I’ve gotten so many lays from public transport that I’d find it hard to recount them all. But as few have the balls to chat to girls there it’s almost an open goal. Far from pumping womens’ egos to preposterous levels, serious practitioners of game are in an extreme minority.

More important, though, is one’s mental attitude. If you want anything in life, you have to fight for it. I believe as much in sexual entrepreneurialism as I do in any other positive endeavour. I have no interest in limiting opportunities for other guys, but at the same time if I want something then I’m going to damn well go for it. That is a mindset you should develop too.

Of course we foster a community here for men to support one another, but at the end of the day, every guy must carve out his own destiny. That means stepping up to the plate and pursuing your desires, be they business-orientated, artistic, or sexual. The people who complain about this attitude are the same people who sit around complaining about guys with rich parents having a better start in life, rather than getting off their asses, working hard, and making something of themselves.

If you go out and approach girls regularly, you are not inflating the price of sexual access: rather, you are creating opportunities for yourself in the market.


 2. “Learning game is a waste of time. You’re better off developing yourself as a man so the chicks will come to you”

Other guys, when presented with an article about game, will make this argument – that rather than wasting God knows how many hours chasing pussy, you’re better off doing something more constructive like studying, starting a business and so on. Actually, this is a viewpoint that I have some sympathy with. As anyone who has read David Deida’s The Way of the Superior Man will know (and all guys should) the most important thing a man can do is have a mission in his life that is unconnected with women.

If you genuinely decide that your sole focus (for now) is building that business, writing that symphony or climbing Kilimanjaro then by all means eschew women for that pursuit. I completely agree that such achievements far outweigh the mere scoring of pussy.

But – and it’s a big but – if you are secretly hoping that by making something of yourself women will flock to you, then I’m afraid you are wrong. Unless you become genuinely A-list famous then you will still have to graft like the rest of us – for the hottest girls, at least. As I’ve said before, I have friends who are extremely rich, good-looking, and accomplished who, lacking in game, have as much difficulty attracting women as anyone else.

You see, what getting girls really comes down to is creating attraction and escalating within a personal interaction. This is the same whether you are a barman or a millionaire. If you have spent ten years staring at a laptop screen building a business, then you will be no better equipped than the guy who lives in his mom’s basement and has severe social issues.


No time for girls, I’m working on my business


Some men will then advocate avoiding the market altogether through a simple strategy – pay for play. Rich, successful guys have always paid for sex, the argument goes. Why waste time on the vicissitudes of pussy chasing when you can simply pay for the services of a 10 for $500?

Now, personally, I have no issue with men wishing to use prostitutes either to supplement their normal sexual diet, or as their sole outlet if they wish – although this is certainly not something we promote here at ROK. But in the end, men can make their own decisions and do what they want. My only observation would be that sex with a hooker, no matter how attractive, is in most cases qualitatively inferior to sex with a willing, aroused partner who you have gamed successfully. ROK commentator Hernan Cortez had this to say when I made a similar point last week – I hope he won’t mind me quoting him here :

‘If paying for sex is not good enough, you simply confirm my previous points. This is not merely about a biological urge to have sex. No you see, in your mind set, its not enough to get sex. This is about wanting female acceptance. And hookers don’t “Accept” you they just fuck you for money [but] that won’t do.’

If there is a craving for “female acceptance” in wanting to fuck girls who actually like you, then I would argue that it is small. Most alphas I have known have got off on the fact that girls are attracted to them, even to the point of boasting about it to me and others. And yet they would scoff at the notion that their wider sense of self was in any way validated by a mere woman.

Of course there is an ego-boost inherent in a hot chick wanting you—I would say that this is natural for most men, alphas and betas alike, and it’s something you don’t get with prostitutes (in most cases). But most importantly, sex is almost always better with a woman who is aroused and genuinely wants to be there rather than with a paid bit-part actress who’s simply going through the motions, however attractive she may be. So while a man may save time on gaming by getting in hired help, the quality of the sex his achieves through this strategy is likely to be lacking.

Overall advice

The best advice I can give is to work on yourself and game at the same time. By all means improve yourself as a man, but also recognize that pick-up doesn’t need to involve seven hour nightclub stints every evening. An hour after work or on a break and a couple of approaches a day is all you need to improve and start to see results. Roosh has recommended one approach a day before. Getting into a routine and sticking to it consistently will lead to an upswing in your performance and results in no time.

Today, game is unavoidable. If you want to get laid with good-looking girls with any regularity, you need at least a working knowledge of it, and to have practiced it consistently over time. Stepping up to the plate can be hard and there are no shortcuts. Luckily, the internet is now awash with good quality advice and support. A decade or so ago this was not the case, so those learning now are fortunate.

While some guys make interesting and articulate points about the inflation of pussy stock through excessive gaming, and the benefits of avoiding the pick-up melee entirely in favor more important pursuits, my suspicion is that they do so to intellectually support their own reluctance to man up and face female rejection by approaching. If you want a regular and varied sex life, you can’t afford to entertain the same mindset.

Read More: You Have to Learn to Love Rejection 

284 thoughts on “Two Common Objections To Game”

    1. He doesn’t need to. One doesn’t need a clear definition of game to go out and approach girls. At the end of the day either you do it or you don’t.

    2. It’s best if you go about the manosphere and find out about game yourself.
      Much will be determined by the red or blue pill.
      Good luck.

    3. Game is pretending to be something you’re usually not. It is trying to fit into a set of ideals that allegedly women find attractive – being an asshole, dark triad, bad boy, clown, etc. In a nutshell, it’s moulding yourself around women’s nature. It’s reactive thinking within the box. Whatever you do, just don’t be yourself. Go with the flow.
      It’s the feminine way.

      1. You and I have very different Ideas of Game. The game I learned was about building confidence, learning the laws of attraction, psychological self-defense and manipulation, and self improvement.
        What you are describing sound a lot more like ‘Mystery Method’, which is a PUA technique that has about as little to do with real game (although it borrows some tricks from it) as microwave popcorn bears to preparing French Gourmet from scratch.

    4. The first few years is simply learning how shit ACTUALLY works. Reality is scary. That’s why the Red Pill analogy per the Matrix movie is used. You might not like what you learn, but you can’t unlearn it. The other component is what to do next with the info you learned, and methods to apply it, like any other scientific method.
      As far as the morality of game. Ask yourself, if a criminal threatens to kill you, shows they’ve killed before, and laughs about doing so, is it unwise to adopt a mindset of kill or be killed? Game’s constructs involve self improvement, self-actualization, and self-preservation. While we pretend to live in a society where one is innocent until proven guilty, I believe only a fool at this point in time wouldn’t flip that around to be guilty until proven innocent.
      Game is about advancing yourself into something better than you were before you discovered it. It doesn’t need to involve deceit or falsifications, but rather to know who your adversaries and allies are, and what makes them all tick.

  1. Good post! Detractors of game are nothing more than men who are afraid to approach women. I can’t say I blame them because we get rejected a lot more than we ejaculate that’s for sure. But if you don’t approach you don’t get laid. It is really that simple.

  2. “More important, though, is one’s mental attitude. If you want anything in life, you have to fight for it. ”
    Best line written this month.

  3. The biggest problem I experience is not the women per say, but my disinclination to tolerate even 1 second of their BS…… it really is like having an enema….. and I don’t mean the bitchy entitled ones, baiting them can actually be more fun….
    The problem is that you have to spend time together in the same room, with your clothes on and faking that you are interested in her tedious chitchat is a hard call….
    So the biggest argument against game, aside from the amount of time it costs, is the fact that you are to some degree sticking your head into the mental and emotional sewer of a 20something female….. even the best FB still has a ton of verbal vomit to deliver.
    Slash said in his biography that after a while the groupies and all their BS, got really tiresome and he’d prefer to have some peace.
    I suppose this would be the appeal of pros, where talking is completely optional…..

    1. That is the reason why I don’t bother. Lots of women these days are horrible human beings so why should a gash between their legs make me want to have to put up with them.
      (most men I don’t put up with either so if pole-smoking were an option it would be the same dilemma)
      Molding myself around being accepted by or acceptable to cunts means I would have no identity and would have to fit appearance and mannerism “standards” set by…. by what? Television shows they watch? Magazines they read?
      So we have here a situation where just being a woman is enough but I have to jump through 50 hoops to be a certain kind of man that is not natural and one little infraction I’m voted off the island?
      No thanks. There are better things to do with my time. The world, in spite of being fucked up (by them and their cohort movements), is still a large and wondrous place and there is much to do that is challenging and rewarding. Saying anything and becoming someone else to stick my dick in a used up hole is beneath everything else.

    2. This BS that slash refers to is similar to what most guys go through in an era post-tinder and happn…you just don’t have the energy to put up with their shit. Might as well do something to better yourself. 99% of Girls are not worth the effort

  4. This article makes some very good points. Really enjoyed that author made the second point that because it applies to me. I think that bettering yourself through new skills and life experiences does more to your inner game then any nlp or starring in the mirror to boost your morale can do. Just being happy in your own shoes will attract people to you, including hor chicks because you’ll be pleasent to be around. Sprinkle that with some decent banter, a bit of fashion sense and not being overweight and you’re pretty much there. Need to be really bad to screw that up and if all you do all day is pick up chick, then together with the law of large numbers you will be succesful then average.
    Game never worked for me because I don’t have the engineer mindset and could never get myself to memorise those silly routines. This would make me more self concious and anexious then I would have been should i have not read the pua stuff.
    Game is good when it’s built on scenarios rather then methods. Together with experience should work better long term. Anyone know some decent scenario type pua instructional stuff?

  5. You completely missed the important part.
    Pumping and dumping makes girls useless as family material which in turn means that society as a whole becomes… what it is.
    This isn’t about making things more difficult for other men, it’s not even some vague ideal of society, it’s about our kids and grandkids. By actively making women useless you are hurting your own family.
    If we actually want to turn this sick society around then game is required learning. But not for the sake of simply getting some pussy. What is needed is to learn game and use it to discipline women into becoming useful again. Learn how they work, and then fat shame them. Slut shame them. Don’t help them in any way if their behavior is degenerate. Only allow non-trash the privilege of your cock. That’s what it will take, on a massive scale, to turn things around.

    1. Not sure if you are talking about Game or Frame.
      Game to me does not have a moral component. It is about dealing with hypergamy in the main.

      1. It’s a tool. A hammer can bash someones skull in or build a house. Likewise, game can be used to make women better or to make them worse. The tool itself is not important, what matters is how it is used.

    2. I am somewhat in agreement with your post. I would however point out that things have descended so far into the void that there is no turning back without some major kind of resurgence of patriarchal values. And to be honest I don’t see this happening. Trash is everywhere.
      I don’t want to sound defeatist but anything short of a major shift in civilisation isn’t going to change anything, just hasten our decline.

      1. War would certainly help things along. But there is no reason not to start now. Even in a degenerate society, it is possible to keep some measure of order.
        I disowned my sister after a particularly bad feminist freakout towards me and my parents. Stopped giving her any kind of help, refused to even spend holidays with her, no more birthday gifts.
        There have not been any problems with her since then. A few more years like this and maybe I will start talking to her again. This sounds extreme, but extreme measures are what is required this far down the rabbit hole. If more men did this, kept control of the women they actually have some measure of influence over, things would get better.

        1. Ha. I really want to hear the details of the feminist freakout that was so bad you disowned your sister.

        2. Sure, why not. She was pissed at me for not wanting to vacuum some shit off the floor, insulted me, I took offense to this, so she physically assaulted my mother for not being upset with me. I had to hold her back, twice, before she stopped trying to physically hurt my parents. Didn’t dare leave them alone for the next two days.
          She also, and had done so previously, threatened that they would never see their grandchildren again if they didn’t do what she said.
          In short form, she hurt my family. Thus she is no longer part of it.

      2. No, not war. You dishonor yourself and all mankind by suggesting we go to war with an inferior being. A war suggests a battle… It would be a massacre.
        But where would that leave us? Much like Pre-Civil War America and African slaves- this machine runs on the two coexisting sexes, enslavement would be much more conducive than sexicide (gendercide?).
        We need a strong MANLY President to emerge in the coming years. A positive Patriarchial figure to which will inspire the young men, and awe-strike the femmes.

    3. Top comment. It will get lost here though as pump-and-dump is the PUA’s main philosophy. Their whole business model is based on that. If you check Roosh V forum it sounds like one huge orgie.
      The double standards of the PUA community have been previously highlighted here but without any adequate justification. The usual response is: it’s raining shit, so I’ll shit on society too.

        1. Maybe not directly mentioned in this particular article but it’s a major theme in most articles (yours including).

        2. My comment was in regards of the post by Ibian and not your article. Although, pump-and-dump is hinted in your article too:
          Today, game is unavoidable. If you want to get laid with good-looking girls with any regularity, you need at least a working knowledge of it, and to have practiced it consistently over time.
          By getting laid regularly you mean pump-and dump. Correct me if I’m wrong.

        3. You’re wrong. The quote you highlight doesn’t indicate frequency. The use of game applies equally to mini-relationships, as well as LTRs. One man’s ‘regularity’ could be a bang every night, while another’s a relationship every two years.

        4. Still you say girlS so it means pump-and-dump. Besides, why are you denying it now when you have advocated the practise in your other articles? Just stand by your philosophy.
          Mind you, I understand you people, you just follow the path of least resistance but the moral posturing and putting all the blame on women is nothing but hypocrisy.
          It’s your weakness and consciously or not you damage society as equally as feminists do. PUA and Feminism are the two sides of the same coin.

        5. You must have misunderstood my point – just because I say ‘girls’, it doesn’t mean pump and dump – it could mean concurrent relationships.
          I personally don’t have a problem with guys pumping and dumping, but in my own life I tend towards mini-relationships, or even LTRs, so I’m not going to ‘stand by’ a ‘philosophy’ that I don’t even live myself.
          I think a careful reading of most of my stuff will reveal that I’m fairly relaxed about this. I’ve always believed that game is the route to successful LTS as much as getting as much pussy as possible.
          Whether PUA damages society as much as feminism is a much wider question. But as I point out in the OP, the real application of PUA is extremely small, so I would suggest that feminism has had a much deeper and more lasting influence.

        6. There’s an old and forgotten book I would recommend to you. It’s entitled “Sex Perfection” by Rudolf von Urban M.D.

        7. A relationship that doesn’t go anywhere is no better than a pump and dump. While long relationships may be less damaging to girls than short ones, it is still ultimately the number of cocks a girl has had that determines how fucked up she becomes.

        8. Indeed. Dopamine drives you to have sex over most other activities and for that reason is an addictive as heroin. This mechanism within the reward center of the primitive brain has been around for millions of years and has not changed and it’s not like to change any soon either.
          BUT we must transcend our primitive brains as we are supposed to be humans (or at least some of us trying to be).

        9. OK, but how does anyone determine from the outset how long a relationship will last for? Or are you saying that any guy approaching a girl should then stay with her until they both die? What if they find out they don’t like one another?
          You have some ideas that sound nice in theory, but are a little naive in practice.

        10. Of course nothing is certain from the start. That’s no excuse not to judge her character before you fuck her.

        11. How do you propose rigorously gauging a woman’s character before you start seeing her? Millions of men down the ages have been caught out on that one, my friend. As I say, your ideas sound good but don’t have much application in the real world.

        12. That’s simple, if perhaps not easy. Don’t fuck her until you get to know a bit about her.
          Simply assume that every time you fuck her a baby will pop out. Then decide if this is a desirable outcome.

        13. Yeah, but my point is that even if you don’t fuck her for six months, that’s a drop in the ocean in a marriage that could last 40 or 50 years. Her true nature — or your compatibility – may not reveal itself for years.
          So you see, your assertion that mini-relationships are valueless is in practice worthless, as no one is adequately equipped to determine before embarking on a partnership whether it will turn out to be long term or not.

        14. Still better than insisting on a third date lay at the latest. It’s all a matter of statistics. No system is perfect, but some work better than others.
          The real problem is the thirst modern men have. Self-control, a set of values and discipline is key.

        15. This just means they are worthless. A woman who doesn’t want a relationship does not want a family is not family material. Ignore them and move on.

        16. A girl who doesn’t not want, or has been trained to not want, a relationship is as damaged as a healthy man who does not want sex from an attractive woman with whom he is compatible sexually. If women are the gatekeepers of sex it is because they have the value that men want most from women, and conversely if men are the gatekeepers of relationships it is because they give the value that women want most from men.
          Ergo, “I don’t want a relationship” from a woman is either a flat out lie (likely, though she may not want a relationship from *you*, which basically makes you her equivalent of a pump and dump) or she is mentally damaged in a very serious way.

        17. Exactly, so how does me pumping and dumping an already damaged woman damage society? She knew when I met her that she just wanted sex and almost every fuckbuddy I have eve had has ended our situation because she got a boyfriend. Its just the way it works now. You can be who she runs to for sex or who she runs to for money and emotional support. I thought these were the basics of red pill.

        18. I do not make the argument that taking advantage of clearly damaged women is wrong. That’s somebody elses baliwick.
          I do think there’s a lot of credence in the notion that if you find a virgin unicorn that deflowering her then walking away laughing is destroying what little hope is left to turn things around.

        19. Yea, that is kind of dumb to be doing. Yet make no mistake, so many come in disguise as that perfected orchid, but really want a MAN, not a boy, to show them the ropes. You just don’t have to be a dick about it, which is really what makes them broken, not so much the act of deflowering them with sex.

        20. And believe this shit, having sex with a woman will unlock emotions and personality traits that WILL NOT be there before you have sex no matter what. Withholding the sex for a long ass time won’t necessarily make it better once it does happen either.

        21. I’ll second, third, and fourth this comment. Heck, it belongs at the manosphere equivalent of The Last Supper! Any time we fight our biological imperative it is due to some damaged train of thought. Let those words of, ” I’m not looking for a relationship.” sound the call of a Town Friar in your head. Heed his words carefully, “Prepare for a pump and dump! Her womb has been prepped for departure. Hear ye! Hear ye!!”

      1. Excuses. Pump and dump doesnt mean fuck her and leave in the middle of the night and make her feel bad about herself. You can have a casual sexual relationship with a girl without ruining her. Most girls in their 20’s want only that anyway. Meet a girl, have sex with her, tell her you only want sex, and set up a regular friends with benefits situation. Honestly, you will turn a girl completely off if you make it obvious you want more than sex from her in the beginning.
        I have had several of these FWB situations and while there were some feelings were hurt (mine included), it generally works out for both parties. Just be upfront and honest if youre so worried about ruining girls. Thats the point of this article. If you think that a no strings attached relationship is a detriment to society, you might as well move to an Amish community or go MGTOW.

        1. Society? America is a place where people work all day to make money to buy useless gadgets and watch TV until they die. There is no society, no culture anymore. Everyone is all about themselves. If you want a society go to Europe or Asia, America is a playground.

        2. Exactly on point. The key to game is not taking relationships too seriously. If you develop yourself and look at women as just other people instead of putting them on pedalstals you will be fine. The problem is that the media and some mothers are busy pushing the “put women on a pedastal” agenda are creating men who are scared to just be real.

    4. Pumping and dumping makes girls useless as family material which in turn means that society as a whole becomes… what it is.

      You mean, we should treat women with honor and respect to save society from feminism? Lol. That’s what brought us into the mess.

      1. I have been training myself to see that picture as a slut and a blood sucking parasite in disguise. This helps me break away from the hypnotic effects. I would still want a piece of that, but thinking this way helps me lower the price I’m gonna pay.

        1. What J. Hue said. Well done, good sir.
          And trust me, the more red pill you become over time the easier it is to see any female as a potential manipulative piece of shit. The prettiest face, nicest smile, and prettiest body will get placed in it’s proper locale in your psyche once you learn the true nature of women. Roosh has written about this, and one just needs to read Manipulated Man by Esther Vilar.
          Yes fuck them, get with them and enjoy them. But never trust them.

        2. Considering them parasites might be a bit too far. Maybe once women were not parasites.
          I guess they are now when considering the present factors.

        3. Contrary to what the first poster says, you degrade yourself just for penetrating them in the first place.

        4. Are you sure you’ve completely ingested the red pill? You might have accidentally picked up the time release capsule. Let me help accelerate the release.
          I think since the beginning of human existence women have always had to depend on men for their survival. From protection to obtaining resources. A parasite. Without her host (man) she would perish. They have evolved to be cunning and manipulative in order to trick their host in providing the resources. They have to control their feelings of guilt and remorse otherwise their conscience would get in the way of tricking their host to syphon the resources they need.
          This should not be anything new to you nor other veterans on this site. It becomes more clear to me each day reading this site and now understand the lyric to Led Zeppelin’s Dazed and Confused. Soul of a woman was created below.

      2. I have talked to hundreds of chicks as good-looking as she is, and only once can I recall her NOT turning out to be a slut.

        1. I was in the university pub years ago having a discussion with a mixed crowd about dating and such. I mentioned that I tend to go for cute girls rather than hot girls. Of course a hot girl (sort of like the picture but blonde with bigger tits) asks if that is because I can’t get hot girls. I said: “No. It’s not that I can’t get them. it’s just that they tend to be complete fucking bitches.” End of discussion.

        2. Well, how would you rate the brunette up above laying on the bench?
          That’s the girl I was originally talking about.

        3. Yeah, but is she “cute”, by your definition, or “hot”? Or neither?
          You said you prefer cute over hot.

        4. I missed your initial meaning.
          I would be leaning towards hot given the cherry red heels and tight jeans. Demeanor can be a big part of the distinction in addition to how they dress.

      3. I think you should treat yourself with honour and respect. No one else. If you want to spend time and money chasing women to feed your ego then go for it. I think I’m just over it all now.

    5. In my opinion, you have two choices:
      Fight against female hypergamy and try and be part of a very small minority who are even aware of it let alone trying to turn things around.
      Take advantage of the current state of women and society and use it towards your advantage.
      The weak will die out and the strong will adapt and survive.

      1. The paradox is that if you adapt to the current situation you become weak as it favours the weaker human beings – women, disabled, retarded, homosexuals, etc.

      2. Adapt and survive in this case implies the New Order will endure. It won’t. It’s not sustainable. There will be economic collapse and war, likely within our lifetimes, possibly within the next 10 years, and that will be the end of feminism. For a while. No, the smart thing to do is to prepare for every eventuality. The status quo will not last.

        1. Then you are not reading economics and politics. The US debt is so high they can’t even pay the interest on their loans. Unpaid liabilities, ten times as high. The only possible results are hyperinflation, default or war.

        2. Well, we’ll see. Debt is extremely high all over Europe too. I thought you were saying that reactions to feminism will induce global collapse, which I do think highly unlikely. But for economic reasons, yeah, maybe.

      3. Enjoy birthing the next generation of slaves, like all the automatons before you.
        What a victory…

        1. … it’s like the “socialist gamers” (you articulated that term quite well) think 10 steps ahead; problem is those consequences they talk about won’t materialize until about 50-100 years from now.

        2. Yeah – and fuck that. It may make me a bad person, but I’m not especially concerned about how society will shape up when worms and insects are consuming my corpse. I’m sure they’ll muddle through somehow.

        3. you’re not a bad person, you reacted to stimuli. the future generations are already grasping the bigger picture…my 13 year old son already treats girls like shit and I tell him that girls have a forked tongue.

        4. If one doesn’t care about conditions that will have to be endured by his progeny, then why the obsession with having offspring at all?
          Me, me, mine, at any cost. The same toxic worldview that is responsible for the sorry condition we are in. Explains the deletion of comments that fall outside the narrow cul de sac of conformity.

        5. It doesn’t make you a bad person compared to the rest of society Troy, but it does bring in into question the appropriateness of your authorship on this site.
          This is the Return of Kings.
          This is not the Return of Hedonists.

        6. But those “socialist gamers” wrote the Protocols in the 19th century and hijacked the US back in 1913 with the Fed.
          We’ve already been seeing consequences for some time now. This is not a matter of not getting yourself hung up about things that could happen in future generations.
          All it takes is an Israeli mini-nuke in Des Moines or the Mall of America or some place in the Heartland and it’s goodbye to the “Funship” and hello to a USSR-style “Terror State”.
          Hey, but you can game starving girls, right?

    6. Ya, but it’s a little like the prisoner’s dilemma. If you don’t fuck these sluts, someone else will.

      1. No dilemma. Either you make society a worse place, for yourself and the rest of us and future generations, or you don’t.

        1. Either you make society a worse place

          1. Stop trying to save society.
          2. Women make society a worse place.

        2. Women can only do what men allow them to do.

          That rule only applies if there’s no government.

        3. Government is mostly men. So the rule holds. He wasn’t just talking about men playing trained monkey in a club on Saturday night. Think “men of power” here.

        4. Government is mostly men.

          Who do what women elected them to do. And if they stop to do it, women will elect women, as they already do more and more.

        5. Which does not absolve the issue of laying squarely at the feet of men. The moment men stop serving females, female power disappears. Which is the point.
          The problem is white knights (which are politicians, the “non-alpha” ones). Without them, feminists would have zero power. You can’t be mad at a rattlesnake for being prone to strike out at things, it is its nature, but you can be pissed off at the snake handler who flings that rattlesnake into a crowded room while giggling.

        6. The problem is white knights

          Yes, I agree completely. But this was not the topic of this article or of Ibian’s comment.

        7. It was however the answer to your charge. Women only do what men allow them to do. Government is men, mostly, and relationships are controlled by men, mostly. We have power, we are just taught to not acknowledge it.

        8. Yea, the irony is when a man learns game and applies it, he gains more control over his environment, and in essence has his own mini-governing (self sovereignty) occurring over his life. He thus gains power. Once you recognize this, you exercise your newly obtained power only when necessary to get more of what you want out of life, and not so obviously that you get prematurely labelled as a PUA, which without travel, can pigeon hole you in a smaller city.

        9. If you don’t make some kind of effort to effect change, knowing what we all know, then you are a douchebag (not saying *you* are, but saying in general).

        10. The people funding feminist propganda, now and from the start, are also men – but only a small group of them in Jewish and CIA circles.
          Government isn’t some untamed beast that’s controlled by a cross-section of men. You get rid of the dual-citizens (US-Israeli) and shackle the intelligence agencies, and your view of government would be much different.
          I guarantee it.

        11. You know very well Ghost that the blame doesn’t lie equally at the feet of all men.
          The elites deserve an infinitely larger proportion of the blame than do average men when it comes to feminism and female empowerment.

        12. The elites are a much bigger enabler of bad female behavior than white knights.
          Why is it so hard for so many here to see this?
          Aside from GhostofJefferson, do they all have their heads buried in the sands of cunt?

    7. Thus raises a chicken or egg question.
      Are women useless because of pump and dump or did they become useless on their own and are now only good for pump and dump?
      I would favor the latter. My reasons:
      – I have known hordes of “nice guys” who finished last. If there were that many “nice guys” running around to begin with, meaning they were not all being dicks, then how did the women get all cunty?
      – The media is full of men-shaming and beta programming brainwashing and “yo go grrrl” crap that we used to make fun of in the 1980s but by the end of the 1990s it became the norm. This “shift” did not happen because men started acting differently.
      – The legal system reflects what the people vote for. I have yet to meet men who want to be 4th class citizens so this came from somewhere else. The only counter to the legal system and the treatment of men is to decide ahead of time that a)you should never risk marriage b)children is enslavement to the state and c)best just get laid with industrial strength rubbers on (and eventually have to avoid using your real name, wear a disguise, etc.)
      So I don’t think the PUAs are out there “ruining it for everybody”. They are simply guys who want to get laid and have put enough value in it to adapt to the situation. It’s a fairly dire situation. It’s almost like you have to become a marketing expert just to get laid. That alone sucks. “Entertaining clown” is whitewashing it.
      Can game be used more positively to “discipline women”? Well the facets of game, not putting pussy on a pedestal, not making getting laid the end all be all of existence, holding frame and a meta state, WOULD work. I’ve always said that the only real problem with game and the ways of the PUA is that it does in fact get wasted on “getting laid” when these principles could be so much more useful.

        1. But the pump and dumpers are still making things worse.

          Prove it. You have the burden of proof because women in previous decades were not used for pump and dump and yet we ended with feminism going global.
          It might very well be that pump and dump and treating women like dirt will heal them from feminism.

        2. Prove it. You have the burden of proof because women in previous decades were not used for pump and dump and yet we ended with feminism going global.
          As somebody who can actually remember the 1970’s (as a child) I think you’re off base here. If you don’t think that heading out to the Disco to boogie the night away with Stu, then sharing some cocaine in a bar with a bunch of other strangers, just a few years after the Summer of Love, when everybody was into the Sexual Revolution, did not lead to lots of pumping and dumping, you may wish to revisit your knowledge of history. And at the time if you’d have told women that they needed to be You Go Grrrl career women who shaved their heads and covered themselves in tatts and who should prefer dogs over children, you would have been slapped. So yeah.
          Shit was going on everywhere. It’s why GenX was the first generation raised by “stay at home moms” more often than traditional families. It’s why I went out on a quest in the 1980’s to find a girl my age who had not been infected by the shit I saw growing up. The writing was on the wall even then.

        3. Yeah but we had that NAWALT carrot on the stick. There were a few left, but even that was fluid. The NAWALT could get bitten by the cuntzombie along the way and turn. Then you come home and she’s mindless and watching Oprah and says “we need to talk”.
          The millenials are lucky. They don’t have to kill themselves chasing a dream. There’s no more carrot and the system is beating them with the stick. They know the score early on.
          There probably was never a carrot, We just didn’t have an internet in which to find that out.

        4. I don’t consider that a lucky break for them. They know, yes, but they are spiritless and destroyed entirely down to their souls. They don’t even try to be people most of the time any longer.
          It’s like seeing a dispirited wolf in a cage at the zoo, staring forlornly out into the distance, bored and knowing it will never, ever have the chance to hunt, not even once, in its life. Its only excitement is feeding time and getting into pissing contests with other caged wolves. No goals, no ambition, no direction, no thoughts, no self. A destroyed being to its core.

        5. I don’t know, bro.
          If you are going to be of broken spirit would you rather be:
          1) Broken spirit for having seen what’s what and knowing ahead of time the ship was lost and not even trying or
          2) Broken spirit AFTER thinking you had that one special NAWALT who turned out to be no different now your spirit is so broken you’d stop breathing if the muscles behind it were not automatic but you have to work your ass off because you were divorce raped and got 22 years of child support and no life on the weekends ahead of you
          I’ll take door number one for being less fucked over than if I took door number 2. And most of our generation got tricked into door number 2. Thankfully I was such an incurable nerd my peers got married, divorce raped, broken, and fucked over before I could get hitched, so I got to watch in horror as good hopeful men got their hearts ripped out and spat on and then charged for the cleanup and turned into broken zombies.
          Like a beta fool I still ended up married in my 30s but played it close to my chest and didn’t end up with kids and when I left her after 2 years for basically becoming everything I didn’t marry there were no strings attached beyond taking all the credit card dept with me (luckily I had everything locked up so she could not run them up).
          So no, I think the millenials are lucky. The trajectory of the cuntification was at full throttle by our time, but it did not stop, and the young fellows at least know what they are dealing with unlike way too many of my still-destroyed friends. I don’t think they are ever coming back.
          But ultimately it’s easy being a destroyed being without the threat of jail (for not paying child support) hanging over your head. Half the divorced dads I know still get dragged into court every couple of years and new rulings made to extract yet more money from them.

        6. And I don’t think the PUA route will be enough to save them. Might put a smile on them though, and I’m not saying it should not be done. I’ll say that at this level of destruction and the energy that has to go into it, it will not be enough.

        7. I remember the 1970s as an adult. The same was true then as now; all it takes to get laid like tile is a bag of cocaine. I didn’t go that route back in the day, so I had much less access. Of course, I didn’t mind since almost all of the pussy to be had via drugs was attached to horrible women that I would rather not have had in my life. Instead I had non-drug using horrible women in my life. When it comes to chicken and the egg the one that came first was Feminism. That ruined women and made them worthy only of pump and dump. BTW I remember the 60s too, both before and after the hippie movement .

        8. I don’t refer to that rich bitch (net worth in the billions) by anything other than her ture name; Satan. And the millenials are unfortunate because even though there is no delusional carrot out there to tempt them, the whole system has taken to beating them with two sticks.

        9. I also don’t think we’re entirely ambition less either. I’m a writer, I’ve published three comic books in three years. My cousin is an Emcee and producer and has produced about an album a year. These are both underground pursuits but personal ones none the less. I think many of us are so disillusioned by the current sexual climate and feminization that it seems like we’re not doing anything. But some of us are.

        1. Hey! Are you making fun of me? Who the fuck is using my face to make these disguises? I want my cut!

        2. ha- you look like a cross between groucho marx and travis bickle? too funny

      1. I agree with everything in your comment. Western society has wrecked women not guys using them as pum an dump material. The latter is the result of the former.

      2. I see a caste system evolving with the ‘marriables’ or fertile, intelligent but submissive virgins at the top. Carousellers no matter how professional will be down there with prostitutes and even wealthy porn queens and Hollywood starlets with calloused rubber pussies. In-between’ers will be grabbed up and wrestled with by naive betas, unenlightened outsiders and tourists seeking a kick in the head western bridezilla.
        Men will do their part to shame and praise, making the delineation between the castes clear. The gulf between the castes shall be defining and deep as a war trench.
        Women as well will naturally do their part to enforce this caste system upon themselves and in this way men have taken the first step to seizing the key to the gate.
        Legal marriage will be discouraged so long as the last wooden gavel banging witch or mangina in a judges robe is still alive.
        The Indian caste system held tight for a millennia. No one could play the cultural marxist and re-mold society with PUTTY THAT WON’T MIX.

        1. Cohabitation will become the new marriage, and will be subject to the same wooden gavel banging thieves as formal marriage. Then merely being named as the father will be the same as formal marriage. There is no end to the ways and the means they will go to to rob men and give to women. The whole house of cards has to come down. Starve the beast to hasten that day.

        2. Actually a house of cards UP or a house of cards DOWN makes no difference. It is still nothing more than a flimsy house of cards and the house UP is just a house waiting to be blown down.
          Starve the beast no doubt but don’t forget to FEED YOURSELF soldier boy. With the turn of this age men must enter the new age with swords drawn. That is FULL UNCHOPPED DAGGARS. The covenant of circumcision must be rescinded and men will topple the great celestial bitch force once and for all. Following will come an age that will plough down on EVE with a ferocity that will make old school sharia look like a cake walk. Through the furnace, the sourest and vilest women will tread and come out the other end distilled and as fragrant as the finest perfume and sweeter than HONEY!
          KEEP YOUR SENSES – KEEP YOUR HAIR. The ‘crystal detector’ radio set is basically a strand of hair connected to a grounded body. It picks up RF signals like an antenna. The hairs on your head pick up RF as well. When you join the military they shave your head so you do what you’re told without questioning. They CHOPPED OFF YOUR ANTENNAE. You can’t modulate signals that you can’t even pick up in the first place. So you await your orders FROM THE BITCH QUEENS. Fuck that shit.
          THE AGE IS COMING. You’ll need YOUR HAIR men. LONG HAIR like the plume of the rooster or peacock. Don’t let them cut your hair or the age will go the way of another fratricidal bloodbath world war. When the insectoid bitch queens try to shave our heads for her war games RESIST. It is much easier to wriggle out from underneath a chirping BITCH QUEEN with your rooster piece shining above and acting as your barometer. Let them chirp. You hear that Beatrix? Liz? You CHIRP like an annoying BUG. We’re not your expendable ANT SOLDIERS and we’re not fighting another war to keep your chirping BUG ASSES in power. We are a TRIBAL and PATRIARCHAL species OF MAMMALS who own title by DNA edict TO OUR OWN MAMS. So no we don’t need to go down to the local dairy queen for our milk and nothing could be more annoying and insinuatingly ALIEN than having a COUNTERFEIT QUEEN demanding TABLE SERVICE.

        3. “THE AGE IS COMING. You’ll need YOUR HAIR men. LONG HAIR like the plume of the rooster or peacock. Don’t let them cut your hair or the age will go the way of another fratricidal bloodbath world war. When the insectoid bitch queens try to shave our heads for her war games RESIST.”
          LOL when you trip on acid before writing in the comment section

      3. I believe in personal responsibility. A woman makes the decision to give up her virginity. Blaming men for this is a typical feminist attack on masculinity.

    8. Pumping and dumping makes girls useless as family material

      Prove it.

      l which in turn means that society as a whole becomes.

      Lol, as if the first and second wavers were pumped and dumped. It’s vice versa. Not pumping and dumping results in feminism. Treating women with respect results in feminism. Considering women valuable results in feminism.

      Only allow non-trash the privilege of your cock.

      Why? She will jump on another cock and you wasted an opportunity to pump and dump.

      That’s what it will take, on a massive scale, to turn things around.

      Men refusing to have sex with women on a massive scale to teach them a lesson so that society becomes less feminist?
      How retarded can you be?

      1. Prove it.
        Read this site. Or Rollo Tomassi’s site (The Rational Male) The more cocks, the lest ability she has to form deep long term relationships. This is manosphere 101 stuff.
        Why? She will jump on another cock and you wasted an opportunity to pump and dump.
        Because if she’s not trash she won’t. Simple logic. Now the point could fairly be raised about the futility of finding any remaining “non-trash” women, which is a valid question in and of itself.

        1. The more cocks, the lest ability she has to form deep long term relationships.

          Yes, the more cocks SHE has, the less ability SHE has. That doesn’t mean that dump and pump hurts society. It only means that it hurts HER. That’s the whole idea behind it. Make her worthless and let her die childless, whereas other women see what happens to her and don’t cock around.

        2. Half of society is women. If men are not hurt (and I agree, we’re not) that doesn’t mean that society as a whole doesn’t ultimately suffer.
          As I said below, sure, go for the bar sloots and club sloots and career sloots, and do it with gusto. But that nice farm girl who comes from Amish parents, eh, give her a pass and don’t fuck it up for somebody else who may want a real life with a real family. Fucking up unicorns out of nihilistic deconstructive impulses is in fact just as solipsistic and sociopathic as how feminists act towards decent men.
          I actually think we agree and are on the same track.

        3. Very well put. Although I’d go even further and say why even give the “bar sloots and club sloots and career sloots” your time, money, and attention? There are so many other things to do as a man.

    9. It’s better to look for Quality and not Quantity, their is alot more to life for a Man then just endlessly fucking women. The women that will most likely give a man a strong marriage is always going to be women of Quality, a Man will put in effort and she most likely won’t put out right away, but when all is said and done a strong bond will be built. The women of quantity , heck if a man can go up to her in a bar, spit out a few carefully rehearsed words, that Man can be inside her by the end of the night. I think a-lot of Men have got themselves into broken marriages because they were thinking with the head between their legs, and married a woman of Quantity, instead of thinking with the head on their shoulder’s and marrying a woman of Quality.

      1. The current social landscape evolved from men trying to find a “nice” girl to marry, only to have the divorce rate explode to 50% – 66%. Men were motivated by “quality” and got defective goods (feminism). If you have new game for identifying “quality” girls, lets hear it. Average marriage in america lasts 7 years. There is no stigma to divorce anymore. Once a woman has a man’s DNA (or child) and money (house), the male has fulfilled his role and can disappear.

        1. Here’s Quantity:
          Overly Tattooed ,bitches/complains , puts herself before others , Entitled mentality , liars , whores , overly pierced , hates children , Career Driven , Independent , lacks thoughtfulness/ caring, Narcissistic , lacks morality ect ect.
          Quality : exact opposite of Above
          Family Oriented, Most likely christian, no tattoos, honest , caring , thoughtful , loves the idea of children / having them , limited piercing’s , isn’t narcissistic, is seeking building a relationship (which will require celibacy for sometime until the relationship is established), a good sense of morality.
          As I said above, some guys get sucked into “but the sex was great” routine and marry a pig based on sex, they married her because of the head between their legs and not the one on their shoulders.
          The social Landscape disaster is a Mixture of three thing’s, White Knight Betas, Male Feminists , and Female Feminists, Really while the Female feminists are annoying as hell the real problem lies with the Male Feminists/ White knights, Men enable woman’s behavior in society wether Good or Bad behavior, want proof, look at how the Western society was before women’s suffrage, look at how the middle east is with woman’s right’s , Men take or Give a woman her rights, The Beta white knights and Male Feminists are really the culprits as to why feminism flourishes in the western societies.

    10. I’d say that by far, the *least* useful aspect of Game is to get pussy. Where I live, the dating market has become rather Game saturated, so learning Game is not just a requirement to get laid, it’s a requirement to date at all. However, all the Game tactics are useful for so much more than just getting pussy and maintaining sexual relationships.
      The core fundamentals of Game; social dominance, frame, manipulation, are all good for everyday dealings and getting ahead. Especially now that women are starting to dominate the workforce.

    11. No you are missing the point.
      Women are not at the same level as Men. They are fuck monkeys. Always have, always will be. Your problem is the brainwashing that you received completely distorts your perception of this truth.
      Arabs knew about women’s real intentions and lack of empathy so they tried to control them but in Western countries the evidence is clear.
      Leave a woman alone and observe her actions. Now tell me if she’s on par with men. I don’t think so.
      So go bang them and stop looking for an equal female partner.

    12. Don’t be mad because you’re not getting laid bro. You sit back there making excuses with your claims about saving these girls and the real men will be taking all the chicks.

  6. I’ve never learned game, and I think I’ve approached women about 5 times in my entire life. I lost my virginity at 14 and have had a girl or two every year since then. Never used tinder or anything like that. I don’t bother chasing women, they approach me or initiate conversations with me. Once they do that, getting their number and having sex soon after is pretty much guaranteed.

        1. I doubt I’ll have much time. I’m going to study engineering at the end of this year. I’m going to be a few years older than most people, so I have less room for fucking about. Women are the biggest time sink.

        2. I’ve been an engineer for 20 years, worst major ever for developing social skills. Mostly dorky men working in the field.

        3. I’m not fussed about that. Engineering has some of the highest employment rates and there’s a massive shortage in the country I’m living. Plus I won’t be limited geographically.
          I’m 6’4 and 100kg (working up to 105), being surrounded by nerdy men will make getting pussy much easier, if I decide to bag some student broads. But I doubt I’ll do much socializing with class mates, I have some good buddies at the weightlifting club I train at. And I’ve already been through the student bar scene. Only going there for the engineering training.
          What type of engineering do you do?

        4. Graduated in mechanical, work in construction & mining equipment design. At this point, 41 years old, I manage younger engineers and manage project budgets and make the harder decisions. The problem is that the field is still 90% men. There are very few women around. I have to meet women at bars and day game.

        5. Out of school (which wasn’t that long ago) I went straight into the workforce and did office and factory jobs. And most of the employees have been women. Can’t say I enjoy working with them, especially when they’re ”team leaders” or managers. Complete controlling, power hungry bitches.

        6. a lot of ugly and fat ones too. If I were to do it all over again, I would have been a bartender and gone to school part time. I would have had fun and graduated with a solid degree.

        7. You work on your education young man. You seem to have figured out your place with women so just follow your course. Good luck!

        8. I am writing fast while working, sorry. engineering degree is great, lots of work and the pay is good. What I mean is that I would have still taken engineering, just at a slower pace (part time). AT the same time I would have been a bartender somewhere and also been exposed to women;’s bullshit at an earlier age. I worked in an electroplating factory while I was going to school.

        9. I kid you not, in my last office job, about 2 years ago, nearly half the women were fat lesbians. Lol!

        10. I got lucky last year, and the company shipped in an attractive Indian women from Mumbai. She was a big time slut. I had fun with that one.

        11. You have commanding height, well above 6 ft. You don’t understand what kind of social advantage that gives you. Its the single most important trait for women in short term attraction. A man can be ugly in the face, but she’ll say he’s tall. A man can treat a woman badly, but she’ll say he’s tall. A man can be dumb as a box of dirt, but she’ll say he’s tall.

        12. Even men of ‘commanding height and presence’ still need Game… and game is not just about the acquisition of pussy.

        13. This comment goes to show that women don’t care about you. It’s only how she’s perceived by other women or whomever in her social circle. Her thinking is I’ve got (a boyfriend that is tall) and you don’t. Having her friends envious of her is her drug.

        14. I haven’t always been above 6 foot and have had women complain that I’m ‘too tall’.

        15. But you started having sex at 14, so I’m going to infer you’ve always been about 6 inches taller than the average males around you in your surrounding social environment. So relatively speaking, you were usually one the tallest guys in the room. Women will instinctively go to that, and start making mental calculations about how much they are willing to forgive in other traits. This preference for height changes to money as women get older. Alpha fux / beta bux.

  7. “Learning game is a waste of time. You’re better off developing yourself as a man so the chicks will come to you”

    Good luck competing against a) the real alpha….
    and against b) women’s princess’ delusions.

    Learning game is a waste of time. You’re better off developing yourself as a man so the chicks will come to you

    Why not both? Game AND self development.

  8. Here’s a modern Grandma, former Playboy Miss June 1969 for your viewing pleasure.They are humans and will get old and obsolete eventually, like everyone else.

  9. With the current state of society I see no reason for “Game.” Sluts and whores abound!

  10. No disrespect to anyone else’s “non game” but i believe that resting on your laurels (because of natural good looks) and not learning game is a mistake.
    Even the best chessmasters still watch games from rivals in order to improve their strategic abilities, even if they don’t necessarily incorporate those strategies into their own.
    The purpose for that is to keep tabs on what other people are doing, so you can understand the trends and adapt accordingly.
    I’ve been catcalled in my life, and have been approached by females often enough where i could have just rested on my good looks and not bothered to learn “game” myself. I chose not to do that because i wanted to understand how the game is played, because certain females will not approach you off the bat so you will still need to approach them as is the tradition. I did this not necessarily because i wanted to adopt what passes for game among males, but because i wanted to adapt my own “non game” so i didn’t come across cliched by doing what every other guy is doing in current fashion.
    Making yourself interesting on top of having good looks sets you apart from those who simply have good looks but no substance to fall back on when a certain female doesn’t respond to those looks as expected.
    In my experience “non game” has paid off in dividends. It doesn’t always work with every female of course, but to be considered unique among good looking Men sets you apart as better than the standard of the Alpha males. (second only to rich Alphas, no doubt.)

    1. you’re lucky then, I can only count about 5 times where women have practically spread their legs when I walked by. I’ve had to approach hundreds of women in my life in order to get laid. Now in my 40s I am trying to find ways to optimize or improve my chances, hence why I am here.

      1. I guess i am lucky, but even still i had to face my share of rejection. Only famous Alphas and rich Alphas seem to be impervious to rejection.
        Rejection is just a part of life. My point for writing that was to express that good looks on a Man isn’t enough, “just being yourself” non game isn’t enough. It’s always best to research to see what passes for game in others, so you can observe the trends, even if you don’t want to buy in. In that manner you style your “non game” better than someone else that does not. At least, that’s my opinion.
        This applies to the market as well as the dating game.
        I therefore agree with most of the article writer’s sentiments.

        1. heh. men are made, not born.
          “Yourself’ is a putz. That’s why it’s so funny when people cry ‘love me for who I am’. Who you are is not worthy of love, or anything really…
          Men are what they do.

  11. “Game” is an attitude and a philosophy and I think it helps you with women , the workplace and life in general.

  12. Some people commenting here seem to think that “game” started with Niel Strauss and his book back in the 90s. It has always existed. Back before that book, I was in a bar in NYC and turned and asked some random guy what he thought about all the bitch face attitude of women in NYC, and how did anybody ever get laid. He said it was a big city so guys just took the attitude of the stockbroker, you cold call 100 people to get 5 warm leads, and close 1-2 of those. Nobody cared about rejection. It was all about being the right place in the right time, learning to say the kinds of things women want to hear about themselves. There was no internet, no cell phones.
    Its ALWAYS been going on. Stop commenting like this is some new construct that has the power to change the social landscape. It only uncovers women that are already receptive to the idea. It doesn’t change women, or make them do anything they won’t be doing with someone else. The problem I have, is that it can be fucking exhausting. I’d like to find a way to work smarter not harder. There was a brief moment in the early days of the internet, when it was thought to be a new way to work smarter, to approach more women with less effort. But its not nearly as effective as face-to-face communication, unless you’re a male with abercrombie and fitch model pics.

    1. Understanding the stock market helps you understand the concept of game a lot and vice versa.
      You have a lot of guys competing for choice stock, and knowing that at any moment a single mistake will cause you to fail. Sound familiar?

    2. Using NYC as a place to establish “it’s always been going on” is a bit narrow. In huge cities, sure, numbers game, no question, and no secret. But now to make it a numbers game in red state/flyover country/regular town or village, with all of the requisite snarky attitudes, bitchyness, stupid entertainment monkey poses, etc., is that really something to just shrug your shoulders about? If you’re from NYC, probably, what do you care, but the rest of the world outside of major smelly shithole major cities, it kind of sucks. It is reality, don’t misunderstand, but nothing is desirable about it to just shrug and accept it and move on without wanting to change the order of things back to something more desirable.

  13. Nice misrepresentation. Conflating game and PUA’s.
    No disrespect to guys like Roosh, who put in the time and effort to help clarify and build what is currently known as ‘game’, and is a valuable tool, those who use it exclusively as a fucktool, who’s lives circulate around nothing more than the constant acquisition of random pussy, are basically tools who, in any civilized era, wouldn’t live to reach age 25.
    “Game pumps girls egos and inflates the price of pussy”
    Bullshit. Game does no such thing… This is a massive mischaracterization of commenters… It is not game that does this, but PUA’s that do.
    The second comment? Troy, how far back did you have to search to find that gem? In all my time on RoK, I have yet to see that particular comment made… I have seen a similar comment, “Spending all your life hunting pussy is a waste of time, spend your time on self improvement.” a LOT, but characterizing it as ‘anti game’ is pretty far off the mark.
    In short, This article is a lovely example of building a straw man and knocking it down, and disrespecting the hell out of readers and commenters by putting words in their mouth.

    1. You need to read the comments section more!
      Anyway, the form of ‘game’ that I advocate is not dissimilar to Roosh’s, in the sense that neither of us advocate PUA-style tricks. And yet I have read the kinds of comments I quote on my articles and articles by him. Your point is a little ill-informed, I’m afraid.

      1. Look, I am not disparaging game in the slightest, any more than I would disparage learning martial arts to protect yourself. However, I think that the entire article’s focus on these being ‘typical comments’ is akin to calling sling blade a ‘typical mentally handicapped man’. Again, I think you are conflating ‘anti PUA’ with ‘Anti Game’, while the overwhelming majority of actual commenters support game, wish to learn it, or simply misunderstand it.

        1. Yeah, the majority do. I don’t mean to imply that the comments I discuss here are the norm, but they come up frequently enough to make them worth considering in detail.

  14. As I have aged, i enjoy the approach and the game as much as the actual sex. The ability to identify the one you want and to conquer her is in our DNA. It is the same urge that leads men to create empires.

  15. Why does the manosphere accuse women of hypergamy?
    The reason I ask this is because a recently conducted study showed that like ends up with like, meaning people are more likely to marry “sideways” than up.

        1. Conclusion: Women are finding it more difficult to marry up, because men are finding it easier to marry down to a six figure income.
          In other words, a small but measurable number of women have upped their game and the increase in assortative mating is driven by, wait for it, wait for it . . .

    1. Women are driven by hypergamy. A male doctor has no reluctance at all to marry his office receptionist. For a female doctor that would be out of the question, if he’s really good looking he might get used as alpha fuck for fun, but long term its not within consideration for most females to marry down. Everything about feminism is a lie. Feminists said that if they were given equal access to careers, then women would stop using a man’s salary in mate selection, women would be able to marry for “love” not “money”. Except it didn’t happen that way. Money is still the single biggest trait for long term attraction with women.

      1. No reluctance at all to marry his office receptionist? Hmm, sleep with but I’m not so sure about marry.

    2. People marry sideways because that’s the best that they can do, men because they’re desperate to have *any woman* and women because they now marry around Wall time and figure they have to do something or else. Hypergamy isn’t “No marriage unless you’re Brad Pitt”, else there would be 2 successful women in the world in the mating game. It means that she’ll settle for your beta ass, sure, but the moment Brad Pitt *does* run into her at a bar and hits on her, she’ll dump your ass overboard faster than you can whistle Dixie.
      And that’s all she wrote, the pencil broke.

      1. It’s interesting you mention Brad Pitt, being that he was one who was always dating “up”. I’m not talking about looks here, but in terms of acquiring status in Hollywood through dating the hottest starlets of the moment: Juliet Lewis, Gwyneth Paltrow (who cheated on him!), Jennifer Aniston, then Angelina Jolie.

        1. Really has nothing to do with looks, Pitt has status and such fucking enormous social proof that he could get in a car wreck tomorrow and still have fifty women lined up at his door every single damned day until he dies. Celebrities write their own rules. It was rather the female will ditch you for the guy that checks off more of her marks, to the best of her ability, when the opportunity presents itself, if it is to her advantage to do so. And she’ll do it with extreme prejudice and not the slightest bit of feeling towards you that even pretends to resemble regret. Hypergamy.

        2. …and when women do it they blame the man they dumped. It was always his fault because he didn’t meet the woman’s “emotional” needs. Women never admit that it has anything to do with them pursuing their own selfish interests.
          Moe Moe = female

        3. Pitt didn’t always have status, and I was specifically talking about when Pitt started out that he dated the hottest starlet of the moment because, in my opinion, I consider him an average actor with above average looks improved by money. Besides, his looks, like everyone else’s, are waning.

        4. You are obsessing about Pitt. It was a mistake to bring his name into the conversation.
          Insert “She’ll go for the man who checks off more of her wants, if it is prudent to do so to her and she is able to at the time, especially if she can blame her current schlub for her own hypergamy”.

      2. Brad Pitt then never calls her again or ends up in prison for tax evasion and passing bad checks.

  16. You can rely on yourself to pursue women or you can rely on women to come to you. Who is more reliable to you?
    Right, that’s why you learn some game. It’s not about being a liar. It’s about putting forth the most attractive of your qualities to a woman.

  17. How many of you guys have “dated” a woman for more than 3 dates without getting laid? How long were you willing to wait? It is a question I still ponder. I tend to ignore them after 3.

    1. Since I got screwed, went red pill, learned game, left the military?
      No idea. In 3 LTR’s at the moment, and my slaves… well, let’s just say that getting laid was not the point when I started out with them. could be no dates or 50 dates.

      1. Concerning the ones who go on 50 dates with : Do you pay for all 50 dates? make them go dutch?

        1. It’s just an expression… every once in a while I will go on a ‘date’ with one of them, but the way it started out had nothing to do with dating.
          Then again, I assume that most guys don’t know enough about B&D games to make that their exclusive lifestyle… I figure if they did, it would become a lot more popular.

      2. you’d go on 50 dates without sex? Are you sure she viewed you in the same way as you viewed her? She probably thought you were her gay BFF at that point that enjoyed hanging out with her

        1. (rofl) B&D games don’t really have ‘dates’.
          But sometimes, yes, I waited a while to have actual sex with them. Usually because they hadn’t earned it.

        2. I went out with a blond 7 on body 8 on face. After the third date she tried to shit test me. Here is what she said:
          “I am very sexual, but you have to impress me first. You keep wanting to meet me instead of picking me up” (which is not true on the 3rd date). “I am not affectionate because my parents didn’t hug me” (I found this to be a really weird statement)
          My response: “You have to get affectionate with me, or else you need to go elsewhere to find someone to impress you.”
          She backtracked and said she” can be affectionate” as long as I impress her. I hung up as the conversation became exhausting.

        3. Excellent. As Ive thought about this further, Ive actually played games back. Ive turned down a 7 that was stringing me along but was finally ready , and called an orbiting 5 to drain them that night, knowing that it revs up the 7 even more later. Dumb broads.

        4. Some of us are more motivated by control, turning a woman into a helpless slave, psychologically and physically dominating them than we are simply by getting our dick wet.
          Fucking is easy. Turning a woman into a slave is much, much harder… and far more rewarding.
          That’s why I often tell people that even today, women are ‘fixable’, It just takes a bit more motivation than is generally legal… and once you have them in the right mindset, they will become enthusiastic participants in the game, and fanatic defenders against anyone that would ever try to interfere with the game.
          Not that you actually have to break any currently enforced laws… It’s a very grey area, but one that profits best with privacy.
          BTW- I have been doing this for 25 years… ‘Shades of Gray’ is just a new face on a very old game.

        5. their “dumbness” has no limits, it is like the border of the universe. I see new “dumbness” on a weekly basis.

        6. Yes, and when you have abundance, and experience, soo easy to not give a fuck….which ironically makes them even more tingly…dummies. Women make everything more difficult for themselves. Their BS always backfires

    2. Nowadays if a girl makes the guy wait 3 dates it means she’s not really that into him, or she’s using him as betabux
      I think I posted this story before, but there was this slut in my circle that one day decided she wanted a relationship, so she found some guy on OKCupid and made him wait a few weeks before having sex with him, to make him think she’s a good girl. She broke up with him because he was too nice and boring, and went back to fucking guys she met at EDM concerts. Go figure

      1. I can’t remember exactly how long, I think it was 3 – 5 dates, that I waited to have sex with my ex. She said she didn’t want to have sex straight away because she didn’t want me using her just for sex. She was my first serious relationship and was almost 9 year older than me.
        It was pretty good tbh. She had her own place, spent money on me, and gave daily blowjobs. It was fun while it lasted.

      2. that’s what I thought. Most women I date are over 25 years of age, so I know they are NOT virgins so I feel they should give it up fairly quickly.

    3. Rare. As Ive gotten older a little more often, but “dates” are simply drinks. Only way Ill allow it is if it is someone I really want to F. Meanwhile though Im having plenty of sex on the side. I treat them like sales prospects. Some are “sprints”…right away, and some are “marathons”, and they are all happening at the same time. Ill only run that marathon again though if shes really hot. Otherwise ignore mode right away, and again always having sex with others. And I am NOT a believer that, if you are meant to be with someone, that having sex “too soon” ruins the relationship. If you are meant to be with someone doesnt matter if you F first night you meet or next month.

      1. Agreed on all points. I’m much more of the mindset now that 1 date occurs, then if the follow up communication doesn’t fit the mold for a likely future bang, put her at the bottom of the prospects list. I’m done going on 2nd and 3rd dates unless the stars are already lined up.
        Since learning my first focused game readings and applying them 5 years ago, I’ve not gone on any 2nd dates that didn’t wind up in some form of sex. 3rd dates, no way.

  18. Will ROK weite an article on Shit Tests, the rules of them and the right response?
    I know there was one on text, but what other types are there?

    1. easiest rule on shit tests? Laugh at them. Turn them around. never let them go overboard, even when you turn them around.
      If it’s a question, never ever answer it… come up with a way to create a clever rejoinder.

    2. I never liked the term “shit test”. Makes it sound like she’s a teacher giving you an unfair exam with material that’s not in the textbook.
      Reframe what she’s doing as “playing provoke and respond”. You’re allowed to play back with her.

  19. #2 is especially valid. I’ve always said the only 2 scenarios you’ll get girls approaching you are if you’re famous or in a strip club.

    1. You hang out in the wrong places. Whenever I see comments like that I am often lead to wonder – do you live in a big city? That would be applicable there. Out in flyover country, bit of a different story. Girls approach, even now, with some frequency. It’s not entirely rotten to the core like the dregs of Gotham.

      1. I live in Chicago and girls approaching is rare. It does happen on occasion but there are just too many people here I guess-and the female entitlement attitude here is off the charts. I would like to test out the smaller places at some point as you’ve described. Have you had success in any particular place?

        1. I’m north of Columbus, Ohio, and it’s pretty damned good here. Granted, I’m just 20 minutes north of THE Ohio State University so the count of HB7+ is highly skewed in a good direction compared to, say, Nowhereville, Utah.
          Also notice a lot of women will openly come on to you the further west you go, but no further west than, say Idaho or Utah. Avoid Cali, Oregon, Washington. Avoid east coast. Basically if it’s a cobalt blue zone, or heavily packed, you’re on your own. I also think the south is pleasant but unfortunately way too many fat chicks there, and Churchianity has created a similar mindset to feminism, except hippy Jesus is their alpha.
          But midwest, old west outside of big cities, you’re golden.

      2. only the movers and shakers in Dallas get approached, especially in bullshitty-uppity uptown area. It is very fake in the bigger cities.

  20. ” how many guys do you think are actively out there in the field taking action on the stuff they read on ROK and other sites? It’s a distressingly small proportion. I think Krauser estimates that only 5% of men who come into contact with game material do anything about it, and even fewer practice consistently.”
    This makes me upset because judging by the comments in articles like this wherein guys are negative or make excuses for gaming multiple women, this number feels about right. I think many guys on this site are so scared of rejection despite what we see and read, that they would rather live vicariously through the actions of a few rather than become the trumped-up alpha version of ourselves that we “believe” we are in our heads.

    1. nobody likes rejection especially since mommy told us we are “special”. Thanks to, PUA forums, and ROK, I do not give a shit anymore about being rejected. The women I’ve met while being rejected taught me valuable lessons about the fucked-up female mind and many of them fared no better with the beta they eventually married or the alpha criminal that knocked them up.

  21. I met a guy in Bangkok who was from Scotland. We were trolling around the massage places and I mentioned the Rooshvforum. He had never heard of it but I mentioned to him what is was. He immediatly became defensive and said “he’s like one of those guys that teaches losers how to pick up girls.”
    I immediately thought, here we are, 2 guys, hitting up massage parlors and he called guys learning game losers? Really? I don’t mind hitting up the massage parlors for a hand job every now and then but this guy was a hardcore sex addict and ONLY bangs Thai prostitutes.
    I won’t go into how I met the guy, I don’t even particularly like hiim but I figured I would tell this story to point out the defensiveness that comes with bringing up game.

    1. You brought it up as a cold approach.
      Try it with men going through divorces, or even men who just make a somewhat negative observation about, say, sports casters all being women (or whatever). Cold calling the manosphere is going to give you very low odds of receptiveness.

    2. I never understood men going to asia as sex tourists, where its so much easier to pick up attractive women when you’re coming from the west.
      Here’s something mind blowing to most men. Ever wonder why females from Hong Kong always talk about going to Bangkok for “shopping” and to get a “massage”? They could get a “massage” in Hong Kong for a lot less money than the cost of a plane ticket to Bangkok. I finally got a woman to admit that they get a “happy ending” too if they want it, and its almost always offered as built into the price. There is no penetration, and no oral, just manual massage for the last 10 minutes on and around her well oiled labia and clit. And they cum harder than they ever had in their lives. And they can’t do it to themselves with any sex toy. More classified info that women learn to deny in the presence of men. They have these lady “salons” in america in cities like NY. The masseuse is usually gay male. Women don’t think that’s cheating if they’re in a relationship, because the masseuse is gay and she wasn’t penetrated. Where’s the feminist outrage about these abused gay male massage therapists?

    3. Maybe he sees them as losers because they obviously care about female validation…..otherwise they would be happy just banging hookers like he is.
      A loser isn’t always a guy that can’t get girls, it’s a guy that gives a fuck either way. Your friend may just, quite healthily see banging hot hookers care free, as equal or better than trying to “game” girls. Lots of guys get to that point….
      Look at all the famous people and sportstars etc who theoretically have every advantage in world with women, but still end up banging hookers. Lots of guys have more money than time/game, no patience etc
      Lots of guys get sick of the challenge or the chase after the second girl, after the first couple of girls they pick up they don’t need the validation anymore as men, just the pussy.

  22. Another common objection is that it is ‘misogynistic’.
    Quite easy to explain that it isn’t.

  23. my coach love-drop once told me ‘fuckers don’t event read; once u read practice practice practice practice practice …… practice some more”

  24. Women operate on a concious mind/processor, Hypergamy/Operating system setup.
    Regardless of what the feminists or your mom says, the only way you’ll get any without being exploited horribly is to employ game -and do so smartly. By so doing you avoid being ruthlessly crushed by the Hypergamy OS .
    Further detail on the concept here :

  25. BETA males inflate the egos of chicks, even unattractive ones. Game = survival these days.

  26. Forget it, chasing women is too much of a hassle considering my race (Asian), in a country where white females generally despise Asian men. I was a mid-30’s virgin until very recently when I fucked a gorgeous high-end escort – a nice, fresh, young woman with a friendly attitude.. Fucking amazing experience with multiple shots on goal. Got no regrets and I’ll try it again. When you consider the huge amount of time, money and effort spent looking for girls in a game situation, the trade off is really, really worth it.

    1. you shouldn’t think like that. I’m an Asian male early 30s living in the US. You should live on your own terms. If you want to date white girls, just go approach white girls 10 times a day every day. Get rejected. Maybe the 97th approach of the month will work. You can only control what you yourself do. Other people will choose what they choose. You shouldn’t care. One of my best friends is Chinese and dating a pretty cool white girl. You just gotta find the ones who like Asian guys because that’s who you are…an Asian guy.

  27. Great article with an even greater conclusion. In my experience women like when they are being approached. They appreciate it because they do not experience approach on a daily bases. Women egos are not so much inflated, they are just women hehe. Sure there are some bitches but hey what to say.

  28. All men want quality and quantity when it comes to gaming pussy stock, it’s an addictive pastime. Working on your game and self improvement boosts your confidence, and not just with women. It’s also true that if it wasn’t for our sex drive, we wouldn’t want anything to do with them. More men these days are using sugar dating websites such as and hooking up with younger, gorgeous women

    1. you know what happens on those sites? it just ends up being an escort service. I have not seen one established, permanent relationship evolve from sugar daddy sites.

      1. Very true. I can’t believe the amount of sugar dating sites out there right now, not my cup of tea mind you.

  29. In a CDC study from a few years back, only 6% of males between the ages of 15 and 44 claimed to get laid by 4 or more different women in the previous 12 months. That went from a high of just under 10% for the 18 to 24 crowd to less than 4% for men 40-44. That means that 96% of guys are not scoring new pussy even once per season.
    Among men aged 40-44, only 30% reported having 15+ sex partners in their lifetime. That means that, over the long haul, 70% of guys average less than one new bed buddy every 18 months!
    And to give a racial perspective, black guys are between 1.5 and 2 times as likely to report being in the top tier of snatch slayers, so among everyone else, the above numbers are overstated.
    The point is that there is not a lot of pump-and-dump going on.

  30. There is no denying that game inflates the price of pussy. It is a simple fact. Game is like giving a bad kid candy to get it to shut up, it is a coping mechanism, it doesn’t fix the root problem (spoiled child aka entitled women). What you are doing is raionalizing it. You are saying well people are going to pump pussy anyways and I want pussy so I am going for it.
    Ok, fine, but you are still inflating its price. Say you just want pussy and you don’t care if you have to act like a clown and dress up like a clown to do it. But don’t insult our intelligence and deny the truth. And I have no problem with you quoting me. Most alphas are fucking hookers and they don’t care if the girl is attracted to them or “aroused” by them, they don’t care what the girl thinks.
    This is precisely why women are attracted to alphas. Alphas are not seeking approval, they don’t care what girls think or feel, they don’t care if they pay for sex. Most alphas are not even fucking a steady stream of “hot girls” they are just fucking a steady stream of girls mostly in the 6-7 range and a few 8s. There simply aren’t enough 8’s and 9’s for anyone not on a fashion runway or a woman’s panty store to be fucking them consistently. Not even in most strip club could you constantly bang 9’s.
    And who is going to suck and fuck better, the girl who is a pro fucker or the one who has done it on just 3-4 cocks before? How many girls say I don’t do that? Just because a girl will have sex with you doesn’t mean she is any good at all.
    Women are at the end of the day manipulative and dishonest. If she does a “nice act” for you, its not for you, its for her. Where a man will help mentor another man with no expectation of anything in return. A woman is ALWAYS looking for something in return. A woman will hold a door for you and get mad you didn’t say hello or thank you. Why? Because she wasn’t doing it out of niceness, she was doing it from a manipulative point. She held the door hoping you’d initiate a conversation so she could sink you into a “friendship”>date>relationship>marriage> $$$$. She is angry because you averted her manipulation. Same reason they get angry about hooker usage. You avoid female manipulation by paying for it.
    I am just sick of the fakeness and the song and dance. I’ve seen all the types of manipulation hundreds of times and now I can basically read girls minds and see what kind of manipulator she is from a mile away. There are the loud mouths, the silent types who just stare and say nothing and so many other kinds. Game has a usage in some cultures though. So I won’t say its worthless. If you don’t mind being manipulated or used by women then game isn’t so bad. It just tries to get you what you want.

    1. A woman held a door for you and got mad because you didn’t talk to her because her intent was to friendship>date>relationship>marry you.
      Put the pipe down and get some sleep.

  31. “But – and it’s a big but – if you are secretly hoping that by making something of yourself women will flock to you, then I’m afraid you are wrong. Unless you become genuinely A-list famous then you will still have to graft like the rest of us – for the hottest girls, at least. As I’ve said before, I have friends who are extremely rich, good-looking, and accomplished who, lacking in game, have as much difficulty attracting women as anyone else.”
    Mayweather Jr’s girl aborted his twin daughters then went off and fucked Nelly.
    “You see, what getting girls really comes down to is creating attraction and escalating within a personal interaction.”
    More truth.

  32. Re. #2. I’ve known plenty of guys who focus solely on self improvement, who by all means have me beat in some form or another, but have little to no game. Ironically, self improvement with no game is the easiest path to follow because it’s been marketed to everyone via media, high school, college, workplace, etc. Seeing guys that have model looks, still having difficulty with women. They’ve got everything in order, nice house, nice car(s)/truck, motocycles, boats, expendable cash flow, all the attractants, but still well into their 30s & 40s have difficulty bedding women, and when they do, THEY get taken for the ride, not their women.
    It’s silly really. My approach has been definitely to work on self-improvement, but having a life front-loaded with game makes the entire ride way more exciting. A bunch of toys and a “look” isn’t what makes the ride exciting. Having the balls to get to know people on a deeper level is.

  33. No sale.
    You’re still at the mercy of women.
    And your existence is still defined by them.
    Nice try, though.

    1. You can’t short-circuit men’s inherent biological desire to have sex with multiple women, however much it may conflict with your political and societal views. In that sense all men (except gay men, and men with very low testosterone) are ‘at the mercy of women.’ The question is what to do about it.
      You can choose to remain celibate. But then you are denying your essential male urge. Is that better than playing the game? I would argue that it’s not. If you game skillfully then far from being ‘defined by’ women, you can extract what you want from the market on your own terms.
      If you eschew sexual contact with women, then you are simply defined by your abstention from them. And you don’t get any pussy.

      1. Your comment proves my point.
        You can’t live without female validation.
        Women control the game.
        You are a pawn.
        They can use you, make you dance or destroy you at will while you think you’re “winning”.
        Some men have the power and will to control their “urges”.
        Providing and protecting women is a biological urge and yet thousands of men have subdued this.
        No sale.
        You are a vagina worshipper.
        Don’t condemn others for not subscribing to your religion.
        Patting yourself on the back for having “game” in today’s society with today’s women is as congratulating yourself when a city bus driver let you on after you chased him for 12 blocks.

        1. And your comment proves my point. You are also a pawn of women.
          You have to ‘control your “urges”‘ You have to make an effort. Therefore you are not free of them. You remain in their power, even as you resist, even as you pat yourself on the back.
          No sale, my friend.

        2. LOL how does that work?
          You mentioned gay men. Gay men do have sex drives but toward their own sex. So if a gay man chooses to be celibate and not masturbate then how is he a slave of women? If a man has these urges, he may indeed be a slave of women, but controlling them and owning them frees him. Women no longer have any power over him.
          The funny thing about the denial of guys like you is that it’s almost as if you have the same rationalization hamster as women.
          Do what you choose but the fact remains, “game” is her game. You’re the one putting forth all the effort. Women don’t have to put any effort beyond watching their little puppets dance. For every women you work for, there is one man who got into her pants for far less “game” and effort than you did. I wonder how many of you realize how much these women are laughing at you all behind your backs.

        3. I said ‘except gay men’
          It is you who has the same rationalisation hamster as women. It is you who are deluded. You reveal it in the very language you use:
          ‘If a man has these urges, he may indeed be a slave of women, but controlling them and owning them frees him.’
          You admit time and again that you must ‘control’ and ‘own’ your natural instincts. Therefore you are not truly free. Your life is still defined by women, but simply by the need to avoid intimacy with them at all costs.
          if you were saying to me you’d found a way to eradicate the sex instinct altogether, then I’d be interested. But you’re not. You’re white-knuckling. You are deep in the matrix. You are in denial.
          In contrast most men who game are very realistic about the dynamics of the sexual marketplace. I certainly am. I get it that women call the shots. I get it that men must make all the effort. But still, I am honest enough with myself to to accept that I get some utility from them – that I enjoy fucking them. This is what I said originally – you can’t short-circuit bio-mechanical programming. Men who game use strategies to extract what they want from the market with minimal collateral damage to themselves (or others).
          Remember – what you resist persists. There is nothing sadder than the caged bird who thinks it’s free.

        4. LOL!
          No sale, buddy.
          By your logic, one should give up on mastering anything, for example, learning to playing guitar because of one mistake. It’s the effort that makes you strong. Giving in to primal urges has no value. It only reinforces your dependence on that which you have an urge toward. So she controls whether or not you get your fix whereas someone who controls his urges can live without them and strengthens his resolve.
          Sorry mate, you do what you gotta do, but for me, I have too much power to condescend to an inferior being to get my “fix”. Especially with the petri dish like state of women today. The risk is not worth the reward.
          You are right though, there’s nothing sadder than a caged bird or a puppet who think he’s free.
          “Men who game use strategies to extract what they want from the market with minimal collateral damage to themselves (or others).”
          yea, we’ve already seen that a woman can come back 50 years later and destroy your reputation. How’s “game” a guarantee against a false rape charge?

        5. The false rape thing is a red herring.
          You don’t address my central point, which is that by definition you are not free from something you have to make an effort to control. It’s like saying an opiate addict who’s managed to go one day without it is ‘free’ from heroin. He is not free. He is still a slave. He has simply suppressed his instinct – with effort – for a short period of time.
          Of course, the situation is much worse with women, as the sex instinct is absolutely fundamental to human make-up. Whether you like it or not.

        6. “He is not free. He is still a slave. He has simply suppressed his instinct – with effort – for a short period of time.”
          So by your logic he should give up and destroy himself?
          No sale.
          “Of course, the situation is much worse with women, as the sex instinct is absolutely fundamental to human make-up. Whether you like it or not.”
          Not to mine, sweetie.
          I’m free.

        7. No. He can do what he wants. But by logic – not ‘my’ logic, just logic – he is not free. And nor are you – or at least, you haven’t demonstrated convincingly that you are, anyway.
          I’ve already said, until you can show that you can eradicate the sex drive then your protestations are valueless.
          Rhetorical flourishes like ‘sweetie’ won’t clinch this one, I’m afraid.

        8. Neither will circular logic.
          He’s not free at that moment but will be in he maintains his resolve.

        9. It’s not circular logic – you simply haven’t answered my point satisfactorily so we haven’t moved on. I can only assume this is because you are unable to.
          It’s well known that opiate addicts frequently relapse years, even decades after putting down heroin.

        10. And many opiate addicts do not. You’re trying to justify your religion of vagina because it defines your very existence. The fact you compare vagina to heroin is very telling and accurate. You may not like it, but some men think higher than their caveman, reptilian urges. So, we have a biological urge to eat so we have to eat whenever we’re hungry? Is obesity healthy? LOL. It doesn’t matter if one relapses. The mindset itself to control the urges and not give in to every single urge, because the body is never satisfied, is the freedom. And one who controls it is far more free than one who doesn’t.
          You don’t have a point because this is another “my religion is better than yours argument”. If you want to give in to your urges, not my problem. Why are you in relation to me anyway?
          I choose not to and master myself.

        11. Disagree. Running game turns women into commodities. They become interchangeable. Its not worshiping vagina. Just the opposite. Worshiping vagina is putting a woman on a pedestal, leading to oneitis. In theory, running game is an attempt to move away from worshiping vagina. It might not always work that way in reality. If you’re in a small town where everybody is married with children, for example, there are limitations.

        12. Fine, but where your argument falls down a bit is that I don’t think ‘the religion of vagina’ defines my existence. I really don’t. I spend a lot more time writing than I do on meeting girls. You’ve made a choice not to have anything to do with women, and that’s fine. But to assume that everyone else is a mindless drone who is only interested in sex distorts the truth significantly.

        13. Women are 50% of the population on the planet. That’s about 3 billion vaginas. If that’s not an interchangeable commodity, nothing is. If your job has you trapped in a remote location, maybe the social dynamics are different.

        14. Ever since I have dedicated myself to learning game, I have improved almost every single aspect of my life. I have become a better man. I have no doubt had I just shunned women and focused on another area of my life to improve, I may have improved in that particular area but would not have realized the holistic improvement that I see now.
          Your reality is not mine.

  34. Really if you are doing game right you are generally bringing her ego down not pumping it. You should always have plausible deniability when you approach a girl(is he interested or does he only want directions?)

  35. This is one of the and best articles I’ve read on this site. I think a good analogy to learning game is like lifting weights. You need to do it consistently to get good. Most importantly, no-one lifts weights for the sake of lifting weights. You do it to reap the results (looking better, healthier, physically stronger for other tasks in life, etc.). You don’t try to get sexual relationships with women to get sex with women. You do it because the path to achieve sex makes you a better man as a byproduct. It will help you with whatever your other goals are in life.
    This is also what the difference between prostitutes and real relationships is. The former doesn’t make you a better man in most circumstances. Hence, it isn’t as satisfying. Your main goal should always be to become better as a person. Women are just a means to that goal. Prostitutes are great if all you’re after is sex though. =)

  36. Fuck her ego.
    Besides which, girls are permenantly insecure. If no one decent approaches her in a while she starts to wonder what is wrong with her.
    Any man who uses female ego or claims to be bettering himself is making excuses because he is weak.

  37. From the second objection:

    I have friends who are extremely rich, good-looking, and accomplished who, lacking in game, have as much difficulty attracting women as anyone else.

    Go back to the first objection. Every chimp with his bag of tricks performing for a pat on the head and a biscuit inflates the price of pussy. So overwhelmed do women become with the swarms of predictable, mediocre turds turning game that the most interesting, best-looking men just cannot be bothered competing. Golems with game might occasionally get laid by way of a pity fuck, or a “get out of my hair” fuck, or a “I’m too drunk to care” fuck, but they are bad for karma. They bore the fuck out of the women who have to endure their lame, predictable patter, and they interfere with the presence of the men that women are most interested in. They bring everybody down.

    1. ‘They interfere with the presence of the men that women are most interested in’
      And that is the whole purpose of game. To disrupt the market to allow men who might otherwise leave with nothing to get some of the action.

  38. I want a long term relationship, but in no way would I ever enter into a LTR with a girl who has been with tons of guys and looks at sex as a free way to get dinner. If you’ve had over 10 partners and are under 30 I want nothing to do with you as a female…. you’re a slut who is never going to be able to look at the relationship we have as special or hold me in high regard compared to the scores of other men you have slept with.

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