An Open Letter To The Men Of MGTOW

First, let me start off by saying that I’m not a PUA who’s trying to sell products, I wasn’t commissioned to write this specific piece, and I’m also not a “pussy beggar” or a “Tradcon” (far from it, in fact). I have nothing against MGTOW and quite frankly find any and all in-fighting among the manosphere groups deplorable.

I do, however, feel compelled to address the criticisms of and from the MGTOW sphere in an attempt to bridge misunderstandings. While I’m not as critical of MGTOW as the others who dismiss the whole movement as a congregation of virgin losers, I do feel that a large segment of its members are lost. Instead of going their own way to live a fulfilling life, they’re using the movement as a crutch to justify and validate their lack of zest for life. They’re essentially selling themselves short.

For the purpose of this article, I’ll generalize the movement into two groups: Group A and Group B. Group A are the active and well-adjusted men who simply reject the high-risk, state-sanctioned marriage and other social contracts offered to men. These are men who genuinely have better things to focus on than chasing women all the time or be a utility to the system. The Group B, for whom this article is directed to, are the ones who have seemingly withdrawn not just from society, but life itself. This is the group that pretends to be the A group, but are actually men who just gave up and are creating rationalizations for it.

The “Shaming” Hysteria

To start off, the B group’s incessant criticism of men’s drive towards self-improvement is getting tiresome.

For example, I published an article last year to share my own experience of overcoming video game addiction and finding other meaningful activities to do. All I wanted to do was to give advice to other men who might be in the same situation I had been in so that they can get ideas on new things to experience in life. And what happened? In a rather predictable fashion, I was accused of “shaming” men by the MGTOW members who didn’t even read the article.

Oh, the horror. How dare we suggest that there might be more to life than porn and video games.

This is the typical knee-jerk response from the B group of MGTOW who have fallen to a mode of complacency—and it doesn’t end there. Everything for them is a “shame” tactic. Want to be in a happy relationship with a woman? Pussy worshiper. Offering information on self-improvement? Scam to sell products. Free tips on how to live the life you want? More shaming tactics.

People who make these sort of criticisms leave no room for a possibility of a healthy relationship or life. According to the more bitter adherents of MGTOW, even if a man is in an intimate relationship with a decent woman on his terms, he is still a slave to pussy who has relinquished his freedom (but somehow dedicating time, money, and effort to gain validation from video games isn’t). This is the sort of attitude you would expect from a hater who is jealous of another man’s success, which is why many men feel repellent to MGTOW as a whole.

The blunt truth is this: men absolutely hate seeing weakness in other men. This is not some conspiracy to “shame” men into doing something they’re not supposed to like, it’s a fact of human nature. We men have an innate awareness of how infectious weakness can be, and guess what? The MGTOW community reeks of it. Those in the A category may have legitimate reasons to deny this, but it’s the B group that is swelling in numbers and defining the movement as a whole. If you get just one point out of this article, let that be it.

More “Shaming”

I’ve also written an article listing the seven deadly sins of manhood (which was also criticized by the MGTOW readers because it supposedly robs men of being able to play victims). If you read the article, you’ll see that the entire B group has all seven sins checked off while being utterly unwilling to fix them due to their anti-shame rationalization. The movement has gone to a point where even helping yourself is somehow seen as a sinister effort to turn you into a drone.

As another example of the self-pitying victim-mentality some of these men have dug themselves into, I’ve seen one commenter on this very site (with a MGTOW logo for his avatar) complaining that simply striking up a conversation with a woman will automatically land him in jail and how it was all was hopeless for him. That sort of distorted and pessimistic outlook on life is exactly the kind of negativity that men hate. Again, that’s not the same thing as shaming.

It’s one thing to face obstacles and experience set-backs—men are allowed to feel dejected when shit happens. Other men will help you and support you as long as you yourself are willing to make the effort to stand up again and fight. But giving up before you even get started? No, we will not accept that. We men loathe defeatists and are repulsed by them, and rightfully so.

Going your own way towards what?

Ask the Japanese Hikikomoris how happy they are. MGTOW may have started as a rational response to irrational circumstances, but this will be the eventuality of all men who lack direction.

Now, if the MGTOW mission is true, its members wouldn’t even bother identifying themselves as one. Normally, when a man goes his own way, he doesn’t feel the need to advertise it to the world. (I know because individuals close to me have done just that without feeling the need to identify themselves as “Going His Own Way”). He just goes about doing what gives meaning to his life without concern for other people. But by labeling yourself as a member and going as far as accusing men’s self-improvement articles of “shaming,” the group B members of MGTOW are openly admitting that they’re secretly ashamed of having surrendered. They hate things that compel them to take action because it’s a reminder that they’re not living a meaningful life.

MGTOW philosophy would make sense if these men were leaving the society to start their own way of life, but almost all of them still work, they still pay their taxes, and they still operate within the society they’re supposedly refusing to contribute to. So, in the end, the B group of the MGTOW is not rejecting slavery from gynocracy as they claim; instead, they want to enslave themselves to mind-numbing entertainment and live a life of complacency with minimal effort and zero risk-taking. They may convince themselves that they’re just being “realistic” and doing what is best for themselves, but it’s clear that—for the B group at least—it’s all just rationalization for their learned helplessness.

Last, the MGTOW community also proclaims the likes of Issac Newton and Nikola Tesla as role-models who have rejected women in pursuit of higher meaning. However, the the whole of the B group is not engaging in scientific discoveries or advancing the human race in any way. No, not even. Instead, what they’re doing with their supposed independence is playing video games and wasting time online complaining and spewing their bitterness. Although anger is a legitimate emotion to be felt when you you’ve been lied to about the nature of sex relations all your life, it can’t be your default mode of existence. If you’re going to build an identity, you must base it around creating and striving, not around opposition and rejection.


man alone horizon

To conclude, my points are:

  1. Not all self-improvement tips are attempts to shame you.
  2. Men loathe signs of weakness and defeatism; their derision is not an attempt to control your life or sell you stuff.
  3. Complete withdrawal isn’t necessarily a good thing and it shouldn’t be seen as the only possible option for men.
  4. Without drive, purpose, and direction, men of MGTOW will go nowhere.
  5. The Group B are taking over the movement and they’re not doing themselves or the movement any favor.

If you can’t even take a light criticism and think this is just another effort at shaming, I won’t do anything more. It’s your life and I don’t lose anything. I’ll just say that when you become trapped in your own mind without experiencing the world, it’s very easy to get caught in a loop of complacency and get cozy with it. You’ll convince yourself that you’re right and anything that suggests a different outlook or possibilities will be seen as a threat to your comfort zone. You might even convince yourself that you’re happy when you’re not. I know all this because I’ve been there.

Being single and unsuccessful (assuming that’s the issue for you) in itself is nothing to be ashamed of, most of us have all been there at least one point in our lives. But claiming the grapes are sour and saying you’re the one rejecting women and society without doing anything for self-improvement is something you should be ashamed of: you’re letting yourself down.

So, go your own way and take charge of your life if you must, but just make sure you’re actually using the opportunity to do something for yourself—not for anyone else, but for your own sake.

If you like this article and are concerned about the future of the Western world, check out Roosh’s book Free Speech Isn’t Free. It gives an inside look to how the globalist establishment is attempting to marginalize masculine men with a leftist agenda that promotes censorship, feminism, and sterility. It also shares key knowledge and tools that you can use to defend yourself against social justice attacks. Click here to learn more about the book. Your support will help maintain our operation.

Read More: An Open Letter To Asian Men Of The West

502 thoughts on “An Open Letter To The Men Of MGTOW”

  1. “First, let me start off by saying that I’m not a PUA who’s trying to sell products”
    My first thought was def Kratom salesman.

    1. I blame Kratom. It’s created so many lazy Type B MGTOWs, because that shit literally sells itself, it turns guys lazy, fat and rich. Until they take a pinch of it and all the fat dissolves away. Messing with kratom is playing with fire.

      1. The hell man.
        Kratom makes me hyper-energyzed.
        After one ounce of Kratom I can’t sleep for a week straight.

    2. Kratom doesn’t need salesmen or even open vasginas to sell it sells itself!

  2. Intimate relationship with decent women indeed. There are no decent women.
    No points for the compulsive video gamer strawman. I have no time for video games. Lifting weights and reading Plato are more respectable sterile amusements, but that’s all.
    Men who go their own way have simply found more fulfilling things to do than bestow further unappreciated gifts on a society that hates the very sight of them. If the sisterhood want someone to fish spiders out of the bathtub and clean up their messes, perhaps their Muslim white-slavers will oblige them. We’re done.
    The sisterhood flatter themselves we’re obsolete. Actually they’re the ones who are obsolete. The only jobs they can do that men truly cannot is make babies, and even that only with male assistance. All other women’s work has been mechanized or soon will be.

    1. You start your retort with the same venimus blanket argument over an entire gender that you claim (however rightfully so) is placed against you. MGTOW and feminism are two sides of the same coin.

    2. When you say things like “a society that hates the very sight of them” it sounds eerily like feminism. In fact, a girl I went to high school posted a Jessica Valentie article a few days ago and that very same phrase was in the subtitle. I cringed then and I cringed when you said it. It makes any point you make after that seem exaggerated.
      I’m not a MGTOW but I fully respect any man’s decision to abstain from women, I get it completely. Just don’t make generalizations and sensational claims that make you seem jaded and confused.

      1. Indeed. There are plenty of women out there who think articles by that hack Valentine are a joke. They know that many of these women are insecure or have issues (with or without men) so they dismiss them. All women are not into this radical feminism (latest round of feminism) and they believe that these women are doubling down on stupid issues….and in the end they are going to pay for it.
        Women are out there…good women…who want actual men in their lives. The men just need to step to the table, be men and demand a woman do her part. It’s that simple.

        1. It is like the difference between the moderate and radical Islamists. The radical Islamist want to kill the infidels. The moderates don’t want to kill the infidels, but are ok with the radicals doing so.
          Women are very happy to let the radical feminist drive the bus, while reaping all the benefits they get from what the radical feminists do, and taking none of the responsibility. I look at most (not absolutely all, but so close as to be negligible) women rejoicing in having the threat point in marriage, and cash and prizes in divorce, that the radical feminists got them, while happy to say they aren’t like those bitches, and they didn’t have anything to do with getting those bennies.

      2. It’s somewhat of an exaggeration to say “American women shun and disrespect men” but as a group, they do. That doesn’t mean individually, every one of them does.
        Our society, laws, and government absolutely belittle and marginalize men, especially straight white men. Do they hate them? Hard to say, but their actions are dripping with resentment and malevolence. For the past decade the M.O. was ignoring straight white men, and over the past year has moved to outright shunning and shaming and despising them. Of course, not everyone falls for it, and girls are attracted to me when I make a riske non-PC wisecrack, but the overall theme of the society and government is clearly anti-straight white male.

        1. I agree but men get laid every day. Women love certain kinds of men so his comment really says women hate men like him and thats nobody’s problem but his own.

        2. hatred comes from love, see how much jocks, frat boys, and PUAs are attacked. No MGTOW has ever been banned from entering a country

      1. Yeah, we don’t need it. We don’t need more young men turning into women or preaching a man’s version of feminism.

      2. ” Women are genetically programmed to suck life out of men and nothing else. They have no value except breeding and destroying men’s lives. Let’s replace them with sex robots and use genetic engineering to turn humans into species that reproduces without a partner ” – MGTOW
        Yeah guys great thinking. That will definitely solve the problems we are facing in this lifetime.

        1. ” You’ll get used to laying eggs. We will genetically engineer it to be a full-bodied orgasmic experience ” – MGTOW

        2. Genetic engineering is a fine art. Sometimes there are things we did not think of. It will take time to perfect. But thank you for being a Guinea pig. Your experience will help us straighten up some kinks.

      3. Clarey put a number on how many decent women are out there, and it was really low. So, what’s wrong with checking out and not bothering about the search. At one point MGTOWs came to the realisation that there might not be a decent woman waiting for them.
        By the way, who cares what Feminists think?

    3. My daughter is good. Cooks, traditional, Christian (old school), despises feminism, is very feminine. My wife is good. 25+ years of marriage and she’s always done right by me.
      A tip for life: Try to eliminate the words “always” and “never” from your vocabulary, except in extreme descriptions involving physics. Also the variants, such as your “there are no good/bad…[noun]”. Rarely does that ever pan out as true.

      1. Congratulations old man… why should your experience be the same for everyone?

  3. I’ve kind of adopted a philosophy of mostly MGTOW at home, focusing on my business and stacking currency, and getting away for at least a month of vacation a year to a conservative society with traditional, feminine women. I have plenty of hobbies and things to keep me busy while at home.
    But this past weekend for the first time in years I was feeling somewhat bored and lonely, and thinking perhaps I should seek out some new friendships or something more than mindless sex with a vapid female to pass the time. I had recently met a girl in her early 20s that was really in to me, but nexted her after seeing some unpleasant negative personality traits that I just really didn’t want to deal with, and don’t have the time to retrain her.
    As I was reconsidering calling her up, I saw the following: I was walking to the park for a music concert in the afternoon, and over a block away I spotted something I thought was possibly female. The person crossed the street, and I could glance over and see she was a white/Asian mix with hair shorter than me. We passed on opposite sides of the street, I looked back, and saw she crossed back.
    This chick literally crossed the street to avoid human interaction. I’m a tall, slim/athletic, white male, and we were at a far distance, where I couldn’t recognize her or even tell her sex, so it was nothing racial or personal. Just she dreaded the possibility of a stranger saying hello to her so much that she crossed the street to avoid human contact. I think it’s shit like this that makes guys go MGTOW. Yeah, I can game sloots but I really don’t want to reward this type of behavior with my attention or presence. Got a sweet, feminine, sexy latina that adores me, I’ll bring her up to the states before I engage with the toxic females here.

  4. Yeah, I can’t wait to see the MGTOW rationalizations in this thread. Let the insecurities, excuses and pseudo-SJW victim claiming begin!

  5. MGTOW (the I-have-sex-but-avoid-long-term-relationship kind) works for men in their late 20s through their 30s when that age range was traditionally a point for men to settle down and have his brood.
    It’s an extra 10 years or so to travel, enjoy hobbies, and rack up notches and flags before some of those things get repetitive and tiresome and the prospect of having family and children at around 40 looks more attractive.
    As men we are fortunate to have that extra window of time while women do not. It’s just my take.

    1. That’s how I view it also. I apply a mix of PUA, MGTOW, and whatever else it is ROK promotes here to my personal life. I won’t marry until at least 40. From what I see in my married friends, marriage seems to put an end to a lot of hobbies and extracurricular activities and interests, so postponing it only allows you to become a more interesting, experienced man.
      But holy shit the stats in Japan on this Hikikomori thing are somewhat terrifying.
      In Japan, roughly 700,000 individuals are in a state of hikikomori, according to government figures released in July 2010. Then there are the borderline cases, the 1.55 million people the government finds are more or less on the verge of shutting themselves up in their rooms.

      1. It’s far more important for the mother to preferably be under 30. But yeah, there is trade-offs for men too. How old are you anyway Corey?

        1. I’m 32. Been enjoying the correct kind of MGTOW way and should be for at least another 5 years or so. Went to southeast Asia for 10 months last year and the solid 70% majority of my peers who are now married or have a kid or two were jealous as all hell of it.
          Saw lots of beautiful places (i don’t JUST travel for poosy hunting) and yet snagged 14 women to boot with several new flags (including Iran!). Hardly player numbers but still more women in a year than a significant percentage of dudes get in a lifetime.

        2. Your stock is on the rise….it will only get better as you age. When you’re ready to have kids, then find that woman who is younger and healthy to have those kids with and all will be well with them. There is too much history to dispute it

        3. One of my best friends whose a fair bit older than me, married a 27 year old Colombiana when he was 42. He was finished with the correct kind of MGTOW life and married a nice woman who was at the age where marriage and children should be a top priority. He did it right, and gets to have a woman whose a solid 15 years younger than him until he croaks

        4. Saved up. That 10 months probably didn’t even cost $10,000 USD. It really is cheap as chips there (except Singapore) and the US dollar was particularly strong in 2015.
          It can be done.

        5. Yep, nothing wrong with that at all. They are both at a point where they want children and it’s their top priority. They’ll work to make it work for the sake of their kids.
          Do they all work out that way? In reality, no…but it’s something to strive towards. Young men just need to realize that their stock is on the rise as they age. Younger women are attracted to older men for a reason.

        6. This was 5 years ago, so they are now 47 and 32. With 2 healthy kids. It’s working.

        7. make it sooner than later. While it was great fun it probably would have been better If I was still under 30. (I had a hunch that a lot of the early 20s backpacker chicks were setting their age dials on Tinder to a maximum of 29). I got to snag some decent mid or late 20s 7s and soft 8s though,

    2. A woman to eat us out of house and home and drive us to an early grave. Children—half of which aren’t ours—to mooch off us and be turned against us by their heartless mother. No thank you.
      If I want a cumrag that badly I’ll pay a self-declared whore to let me do what I want to her. It’ll be a bargain at ten times the asking price, rest assured.

      1. If your general attitude towards life reflects your personality (constant negativity, complaining, looking at the worst side of things) then it’s inevitable that you will be divorced and you’ll lose some assets.
        A lot of relationships fail but also a lot don’t. I can guarantee you that the relationships that succeed aren’t populated by a bunch of the now-voluntarily-celibate MGTOW whino’s.

  6. MGTOW is by definition a purpose to withdraw by some men and never advocated for all men. MGTOW is supposed to be an over-reaction justified by severe over-reaction of the rest of society. Just as in Japan, the Hikikomoris are the over-reaction to their society. Trying to morph MGTOW is like focusing your efforts on attacking the symptoms and not the disease.

  7. The MGTOW phenomenon is one which is permeating around the world as a result of the natural hostile enivornment that has been created by the family courts and the ever encroaching over feminised society that we live in. For decades, men have been pyschologically abused and tormented by the the feminist driven influenced forces which are increasing on a rampant basis. Feminism has resulted in so many men being financially wrecked and destroyed where they have been eviscerated and can no longer seek a viable future for themselves.
    Gone is the savings account, the pension and the retirement properties as a result of the corrupt family court system which is known to be biased towards providing women with more protection at the expense of depriving men of their financial security. It is from careful observation of the empirical evidence such as the divorce statistics as well as subjective and personal experiences of young men witnessing their own housholds broken apart that has essentially, led to the current circumstances in which the world is facing in terms of what men are choosing to do with their lives. For example, a strong indicator of this are the statistics such as 70% of men aged between 20-34 no longer getting married or men no longer settling down to buy houses and choosing not to have children.
    If anyone is to blame for all of this, then without a shadow of a doubt, the over feminisation of society as a result of legislative and policy making entrenched by feminism in conjunction with the ever denigration of men by the mainstream media, has resulted in a lot of men who simply seek to disconnect themselves from society and the current zeitgeist. Indeed, while it may be a positive step towards the right direction for men as a way to reject the current status quo, the reality is that MGTOW has also been abused and mishandled by many people who claim to think that they know what this movement should be mean.
    Men going their own way simply means “men going their own way.” As a man, you have the choice to embark on your own personal life journey and what that entails is entirely on you. Do not ever allow these freaks on the internet to tell you what MGTOW means. If you want to commit to a relationship, then fine, that is your decision. If you want to not participate in the overbearing online world of MGTOW, then that is your decision as well. Unfortunately, there is this recent wave of armchair warriors whom I am guessing are young men, who think that have the right to criticise anyone who departs from the “norm” of what MGTOW means by simply choosing to make unconventional lifestyle choices while regarding themselves as MGTOW, such as having a relationship. Again, how you choose to go your own way is entirely your prerogative.
    For me personally, MGTOW is simply a statement of independence from the conventional norms that are expected from society. Since the current system does nothing to accomodate the needs of men and runs on male disposability, I simply choose not to engage in marriage. Rather, I like many, would choose to seek personal and spiritual accomplishment through reading books, learning new skills, travelling and continuously trying to find the meaning of life and purpose in this world that we live in.

    1. So many men in my community had 3,000 sq ft homes, 2-4 children, semi-employed wife while slaving away in an industry of constant lay-offs; to only end up in their 50’s in post-divorce apartments sometimes working thousands of miles from their children. The divorce statistics are real. Yet, each year, a new batch of newly married young men with wives and toddlers arrive to repeat the cycle. The one noticeable difference is the increased H1B population that drives out the native born…. progress.

    2. The only thing men miss out on in that situation is fatherhood. After you live single for quite a while and see the financial and personal cost it takes to raise a family, I’m honestly about 50/50 whether I want one or not. You can get most of the benefits of fatherhood by mentoring a niece or nephew, being a Big Brother, etc.

      1. My children were the best thing that ever happened to me. They turned out to be fine adults. Now, I thank God every day for them. Now hoping for grandchildren.

      2. It’s really not the same thing nujac. That’s a bit like people comparing owning a pet to having kids. They think it’s the same, until they have their own flesh and blood children, then they see how wrong they were. It’s a rather common mistake. Believe me, it’s not even close.

        1. I instinctually suspect that’s true. Which is why in the end, I think I will have a family of my own.

        2. As a father on the tail end of getting the kids out the door and on their own, I cannot recommend it highly enough. But you just have to be so friggin’ careful with whom you choose as a wife/mother.

        3. For now, I’m more than satisfied with dog. Biggest decisions are what park I will take him to, and best venues to bring him along for scoring “doggy play” dates.
          Re: The wife is she more important re: the kids? or re: the father’s sanity? I am pretty good at discerning the latter. The former… hard to tell what kind of parent they will be beforehand.

        4. If she’s good for your sanity, she’s good for the kids because clearly she’s learned how to be a whole woman. If she’s good for the kids, she may not necessarily be good for your sanity because she may only care about children and puts your needs to the side, being only a half woman. You want both.

        5. I remember when my best friend had his girls. They would routinely destroy whatever he was trying to enjoy (scattering / cracking music CDs, ripping up books, etc.) It changed him to be constantly surrounded by 4 women.

      3. No. Absolutely not. Children are how women entrap men.
        I look forward to the happy day when the artificial uterus is invented, allowing men to have sons who are loyal to them and only them.
        Till then, if you want a pet, get a dog. They’re loyal, they cost very little in comparison, and if they become more trouble than they’re worth, nobody thinks worse of you if you return them to the pound.

  8. Great article, interesting. Do you mean ‘beggar’ though? or ‘begger’? Not sure…I don’t support the distinction between MGTOW and ROK readers, I think you should all work together. For MGTOW they retreat, that is normal for a male to do in a crazy matriarchy. One thing I would change is for the MGTOW / Tom Leykis fans / PUAs and ROK readers to all unify. Our common similarities are far greater than our differences. Don’t divide so we can be conquered. Today’s technology enables an enjoyable life, with or without women’s influence. MGTOW’s wisely avoid marriage or the hassle of girlfriends and in doing so become more independent and maybe achieve happiness away from the drama that modern women manufacture. Anyway, a bit of support, love, care and help is what all men need. All the best to you and whatever your struggle, MGTOW or not.

  9. Wow, they’re just like atheists.
    “I hate gods and live my life free!”
    *spends time every day on Facebook shit-poasting about God.*
    “My mom made me go to church for EIGHTEEN YEARS! ”
    *stays in mom’s basement*
    “I don’t need religion to tell me what is right and wrong, I’m rational! ”
    *has absolutely no constructive rational philosophy to discuss right and wrong*

    1. “”I hate gods and live my life free!”
      *spends time every day on Facebook shit-poasting about God.*”
      You cannot hate something that you don’t think exists.
      “”I don’t need religion to tell me what is right and wrong, I’m rational! ”
      *has absolutely no constructive rational philosophy to discuss right and wrong*”
      Morality doesn’t come from religion. Secular moral philosophy is a thing that’s been in existence for several centuries, if not millennia.

      1. Secular moral philosophy steals from Natural Law, classical theism, and Abrahamic religions. That’s why non-Western morality doesn’t really exist, the Buddhists and Pantheists openly admit that there is no right and wrong. the pre-Western (pagan) views on morality are deceased. Secularism is relativism is amoralism is philosophical nonsense

        1. Where do you think “Natural Law” came from? I’d rather not debate the existence of God on a forum like this, but where do you think the ideals found in religious text came from? Even if you are religious, you cannot disagree that they are all not divinely inspired.
          SMP steals from classical theism and Abrahamic religions? Are you sure? Why did it not steal the parts about stoning apostates, executing homosexuals and non-believers among other nearly unarguably immoral things found within the Abrahamic religions at its core? What you’re suggesting is that atheists and secularists have some other source of morals (that is not inherently internalized or conditioned in development) to which we can compare what is considered right and wrong to choose what exactly is right and wrong from the Abrahamic religion. Morality is a by-product of our evolutionary cognitive disposition as well as what environment we are conditioned under during our life, especially the developmental period. Morality is subjective rather than objective in an open system.

        2. Secular humanism steals from classical theology because they want to preserve the good bits of religion, like free will, justice, human rights, and human value. If secular humanism was truly secular it wouldn’t start from the assumption that humans are valuable. It would start from the scientific fact that humans are no more important than animals, trees, rivers, mountains, or rocks. It wouldn’t stay with the assumption that morality is an objective concept, it would start with the scientific fact that morality does not exist and is nothing more than a randomly evolved opinion which can change at any time and should not be held in any more regard than a creatures method of reproduction or dietary habits, i.e.there’s no reason not to be a cannibal

  10. Very good points here and it’s information worth sharing with other men.
    Yes, I agree…too many of these young men take the easy way out and they’ll use almost anything as a crutch (the path of least resistance).
    We don’t need “feminism” for men at this point – that’s what I’m seeing (and hearing) with most of this MGTOW movement. We need a return to everyone is happy in a healthy relationship. Men need to start holding women accountable and they should call them on their shit as needed. At the same time, what is the man bringing to the table (besides eating cereal around the clock and playing video games for hours)…that won’t cut it with a woman (or one seeking a man for a relationship).
    Men and women compliment each other. Men do need to understand when
    they are in a good relationship with a woman or how to spot a good
    woman. If she’s holding up her end of the bargain, then men should be
    ready to hold up their end of it.
    That’s how it’s supposed to work.

    1. This. I’ve noticed a sizable chunk of MGTOW refuse to look in the mirror and see that the problem lies within themselves. While I can understand the feeling to want to take your ball, go home and never come out again; that’s merely the actions of a quitter. Most problems an individual have can be dealt with through self realization and inner discipline, giving one more confidence and all of the benefits that come with achieving god mode for yourself.

  11. Sadly there really are guys who hate woman. It can be hard for a romantic young male to wake up see the real nature of woman. My son was ranting about some of his loser friends. They complain about not being able to get a women when woman are everywhere and easy to get. He thought his frinds were lazy.
    I explained reality to him. any girl in the 5 to 10 range can take a 8-10 guy to bed. 5s think that 9’s will love them. So they will go no lower. Men we are far more realistic. We will take the best we can get.
    But 80% of woman will not lower themselves below the top 20% of men. If you are in the top 20% like the men of my family, you think woman are easy. But if you are like 80% of men, you can get lonely while hearing girls complain, that there are no good men out there. An average man can get bitter when he learns the truth. Girls who are below him will be a hot guys one nighter before taking him up on his noble offers.
    Woman are not evil they are cursed like that. For us. Improve yourself and get to the top 20%

    1. If every man improves himself then the top 20% remains the top 20%. No matter how great we all become, 80% of women will still want only the top 20% of men. Hypergamy is not absolute it is relative, and as such there is no way around it. If we all became Superman, women would still be whispering in their heads, “Is this really the best I can do?”

      1. There are far fewer men willing to self improve than there are men who were just born in the top 20%

        1. And sadly let’s be honest it’s basically the top 10% the top 20 just does OK

    2. This is completely irrelevant. Back when I actually did hook-up, date, and chase pussy, I had a decent success rate overall. MGTOW is more about being anti-marriage and anti-cohabitation due to how you can systematically get screwed over financially. I don’t care if another MGTOW goes out and bangs 100 bitches (not that I really care if any man would do so), but I would question if he is really a MGTOW if he doesn’t just stick to pumping and dumping.

  12. I think the solution is to try and convince more men to move to group A. Becoming a player and learning game becomes empty after a wife. Even Roosh is finding this out now. The problem is that there aren’t nearly enough good women for the men who want to become good husbands. That is why men with time and resources are going to such great lengths (going to other countries, etc.) to find a good woman to marry. I agree that men should not become complacent, but I do not think that they should be encouraged to learn game and become players. That lifestyle only leads to emptiness sooner or later.

    1. Good thought here. What we need in society is to get back to a balance in these marriages. A woman needs to be on the hook, just like a man, and if the marriage fails then she loses out as well.
      We’ve let the system dictate (to us) that if a marriage doesn’t work then it’s the man’s fault (by default) and she wins (everything). We need to “right the ship”.

    2. To be honest, most average men (betas and AFCs) should be satisfied with one new bang every few months. They seem to feel pressure to be players and PUAs. Guys with little attractiveness will have to take what they can get in any free sexual marketplace.

  13. If I were to give up on women, I would leave them and any thought of them alone completely. The internet is filled with MGTOW that make countless YouTube videos and blogs bitching about women. Most females suck, we all understand that but it seems like they are replacing trying to bed women with trying to degrade them and thats not going your own way. Its still focusing a large amount of energy on women. Most MGTOW probably expend more time and energy on women than me and I put my dick in them.
    I have reached points where I needed a break from gaming women. I sometimes go a few weeks without trying to bed new women. In those times I spent time alone or with male friends and I didn’t have to tell everyone about it. I certainly didn’t wear it around like a badge of honor. I just got tired of it all.

    1. Agreed. I once went about a year hardly seeing women at all because I was 100% focused on a project.
      Did you hear me carrying on about how I wasn’t dating on YouTube? No, because I was too busy working on my project.
      Finished the bloody thing, too

      1. Exactly, MGTOWs should be inventing new technology to help better the world.

    2. MGTOW content creators are a small bunch. But imagine how many people are MGTOW without being vocal about it? And imagine how many people are MGTOW without ever hearing about MGTOW.

  14. THANK YOU! Someone had to say it.
    You say that you dont want to label them as virgin losers, but the Group B of MGTOW’s, are exactly that.
    Not only losers with women. They are losers overall.
    They like to pity themselves and won’t take any responsibility to do something against it.
    Every guy feels shitty after he takes the red pill and realizes how women really are. That they play crazy games etc.
    Now you can either be a pity cunt and say “Fuck dat, I don’t want to play any games, wanking in my moms basement is OK for me, if I don’t have to deal with that.”
    OR : You take responsibility, learn all their games and learn how to defeat them and use women for your very own advantage. That’s what MGTOW should be about. Not NEEDING women but WANTING them and GETTING them.
    Adapt or die.

    1. I have no problem with men dropping out of the game completely, I just don’t want to hear them go on and on about it. We all know the reasons why. Go invent something, write a book, travel, make money, etc. just don’t make a YouTube channel announcing ther MGTOw title like its something they earned.

      1. The problem is that they LOVE to complain about women. That’s their whole conversations with other men. Just like feminist love to complain about men.
        They are too scared of changes and don’t take any actions. But still love to complain how bad their life is.
        Not just with women.
        I see everyday guys crying over their 9-5 jobs and how much they hate it. Every single day.
        When I or some other guys tell them that they should start their own business than, they start crying even worse.
        “But but but, what do you mean??”
        They are even too lazy to google that shit.
        If so many people tell you that you can start an own business instead, how about you take some responsibility and lookup what these guys could mean with that?
        But no, believe me, none of them will invest those 5 minutes into google search.
        They want to be spoon-fed.
        I wasted a lot of time trying to convince this people to take action etc. but it’s useless.
        Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that having an own business and being an entrepeneur is the only good way. If you are more happy with a corporate job thats totally fine. But if you are soooo unhappy with you 9-5 job and hate it so much, and STILL don’t even try to change something you have no right to bitch about that.

        1. No sexual attention can drive any human mad. It must be frustrating to not be sexually attractive. I empathize with them but you’re right, many men do complain way too often. The worst are my married friends. Their wives run the show and they just gripe about how unhappy they’ve become.
          In 2016 men have to take complete control of their happiness because there are alot of entities out here trying to steal it from us.

        2. Exactly. I’ve found this excerpt and it matches perfectly:
          “In a world where all the information is out there, easily accessible via the internet, easily available through globalization, 90% of people still don’t get it. You have it all, the entire know how, the step-by-step guides… everything. From how-to-become a pro athlete, to computer programming, to how-to-become richer, smarter, better, faster, you name it. All you have to do is extent your arms, grab it, grasp it, “I want it! Here, I’m ready!” and you shall receive. Yet, you don’t do it. Why? Because you don’t want to. You seriously don’t. I’m going to unveil the uncomfortable truth here: You don’t want to hustle hard and work on yourselves.
          >>> ALL. YOU.WANT…. is someone to pad you on your shoulder saying:
          “Hey, don’t worry, give up, there’s no hope for you, it’s okay. Nobody in your special little case can do it. It’s okay, don’t worry, you’re just meant to live a mediocre life.”
          MGTOW’s in a nutshell.

        3. I have yet to read a post of yours that I don’t heartily agree with. Well said Jordan.

        4. They’re doing it for attention. I know one of these guys and he thinks the ultimate idol in the world should be peter gibbons from officespace. They don’t want to GTOW – they want attention, they want to be lazy and not be called out for it.

        5. I must admit that married men still complain way more than MGTOW guys (those who are aware of the term MGTOW anyway)

    2. You have to separate out MGTOW from “movement”. You cannot go your own way if you are in a movement. Thus people trying to make a movement of it are repellent.
      Any man has enough agency to go his own way any time and in any way. In fact, the guy with the family and career might have achieved that by going his own way. Was his way against some other means? What did he escape from?
      If I had stayed on the tracks I was born into I’d be just another New York ginzoid sounding like a cast member of The Sopranos, driving an Iroc Z (though they are collectors items now) and having a fat wife who is good at making ziti.
      Ultimately, my definition of MGTOW is “anything that feminists hate”.
      But I don’t think feminists hate it when men become basement dwelling neckbeards and sperge video games all day. Only a few try to make money from being afraid of them (hence Gamergate) but that’s about it. I don’t think the average woman is even aware of MGTOW or would care if they were educated on the topic.
      We can see what “you go grrrrl”ism has amounted to: wasted women in their 40s, fat from a adult life of reality TV and boxed wine, past their shelf life and completely empty. This was WGTOW, packaged and defined by The Cathedral.
      Thus attempts to package and define MGTOW are to the same ends. I’m sure if we dug a little deep into who’s (who) behind this we would find the same people.

        1. The point is the MGTOW guy is deciding which way he can best survive and flourish under the current Matriarchy. If the best he can do with what resources and abilities he has is playing x-box in his mom’s basement, then more power to him. Who are you to criticize. 80% of men will always be beneath American/Western women’s notice. That is what hypergamy means. Some of us 80%’ers just chose to not let that limit our options.
          As to caring whether women know or are afraid of MGTOW; who cares. I gave up on American Women decades ago. I doubt any one other than my personal friends and family know or care. Why should they? It does make my life better to stop pursuing American /Western women and put my energies elsewhere. I am married to a lovely Filipina and celebrate our 8th anniversary this Wednesday. That is my GMOW. BTW the amount of bitter middle aged women (redundant phrase) giving me hate stares when I am out and about with my much younger Asian bride, means at least a few are momentarily noticing.

    3. Or it could be that many realizing the true nature of women say to themselves and others; play silly games and win silly prizes, or even if you win in the special Olympics you’re still retarded.

  15. A lot of Group A are older divorcees who are over dating and just want to enjoy whatever time and wealth they have left. Fair enough.
    Some in Group B, on the other hand, are younger men who have given up on life before it’s really started.
    Cheer up, Group B! Life can get better. We’re encouraging you to improve yourselves as we are doing because we’re on your side.

    1. Agree…and do it with purpose (improving yourself, hobbies, work, etc…).
      The side effect (or side dish) is women…not the main meal. I think that’s where many young men get confused.

      1. Spot on. Women are the side dish, or maybe even dessert–a nice addition, but not always necessary with a meal. A buddy of mine and I climbed several mountains in Colorado. A few days later, we were at a party showing some girls the pictures we took from some really sketchy parts of the mountain. You could basically hear the dripping as their panties moistened. What turned them on? Two guys simply doing something that they loved, accomplishing a feat of strength while also planning future adventures. Women that I meet figure out real quick that my projects, whether they be for work or pleasure (or both), come first. They can come along for the ride, but only so long as they leave any bitchiness at the door, lest they be left on the side of the road.

    2. That’s my dad. Old divorcee who’s over it. After two divorces he won’t even entertain the idea of dating another women. He just goes about his life on the farm and is still trying to push forward a company that markets an invention of his. Occasionally he hunts or fishes and that’s it.

      1. Older buddy of mine (I think he’s been married?) was in the Navy, he had his taste of what women offer, enjoyed it, but no longer is interested in what they’re selling. It will be nice to get to that point (although I’m ready to enjoy it a bit more longer first!)

  16. Let this be understood: MGTOW isn’t part of the Manosphere. A boy must fuck a girl before he becomes a man. They’re part of the Boyosphere. Just like the ball-less creatures at A Voice For Men are part of the Wussosphere.
    There’s no sensible excuse for MGTOW, anyhow. This article is too polite. I can understand men giving up non-Christian Western women given how cheap they are, but there’s still good traditional women to be had, and SE Asian women possess none of the traits MGTOW gripe about and they can be found at the cost of a plane ticket and not more.
    I propose an alternative to MGTOW: Men Fucking Eastern Hussies Up The Ass (MFEHUTA). It’s pretty self explanatory. It addresses all of MGTOW’s gripes with none of the faggoty down sides.

    1. A Voice for Men has some useful content. As for MGTOW, its really just incels putting up a defense mechanism. Its hard for some attractive guys to get laid regularly, its nearly impossible for uglier males.

      1. The problem with AVFM is they don’t honor virility. They’re the sort of men who like to talk about their feelings and cry about the law instead of getting angry and channeling that energy into an aggressive, effective solution.
        They simply are all wusses and it’s honestly no surprise whatsoever they’ve all got victim stories to tell – wusses have been getting bullied since the dawn of man and crying won’t change that.

        1. I agree. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the facts but the excessive whining is the problem. Point out the facts, spread the news (facts) and take action.
          Men behaving like women is bad. I understand why things have taken a bad turn but we need to fix it (balance it out).

        2. They look like faggots.
          They need to lift weights and dress fashionably and have balls of Steel.
          Then we’ll talk.
          If they also supported global Male Supremacy and female enslavement I’d join in an instance.

      2. MGTOW does not mean going monk. And most of the MGTOW advocates have been married at least once. So all this incel/virgins in the basement stuff is just showing your ignorance.

    2. I think the media is trying to lump all of it together (because much of the manosphere makes too much sense).
      They are trying to discredit some of the good old fashion common sense…like the part where women are being called on the carpet for their complete bullshit. Men are not perfect but this nonstop patting themselves on the back (by women) has reached fucking ridiculous levels…and it’s starting to show. Their arguments are pretty hollow and pretty ridiculous. You can only keep up the charade for so long and then others start to see right through it.
      Western women have come a long ways…but it’s not enough (actually, yes it is). It’s time for men to call out this nonsense and put an end to it. Put women in their place when necessary (which is often). They need a man (even though they say they don’t) to put them in their place.

    3. “A boy must fuck a girl before he becomes a man.”
      This statement. is wrong.
      Patriarchal societies had rites of passage to transition boys to being men.
      None of these rites involved sexing a woman.
      A man has a drive to achieve using his talents and drive and if one is MGTOW, then as the OP said, don’t kill that drive and stagnate but push forward and grow,
      But the measure of a man cannot be a woman.

      1. Nobody respects a male virgin. Without respect how can there be a man?

        1. Many westerners do not respect a male virgin because they worship women. And in their minds only a woman can make a man.
          But respect in an ordered hierarchy, in a patriarchal society comes from competence, discipline and order. This is why those societies had coming of age rituals where a man completed various tasks once to show himself a man. None of them had the man measure himself by screwing a bunch of chicks.
          In degenerate societies like ours respect is gained from a woman, thus leading to weak men who are led by women, who cannot accomplish stuff without a woman’s inspiration.
          A man who believes he must get respect from a woman to be a man is no man but a boy.
          He buries himself in a woman’s front. She screams his name.
          He goes deep and comes out, “Am I a man?”.
          ‘Nope; you need more notches’. Nope; you need prettier women…you need to tell everyone…you need…
          A man uses his talents to the best of his abilities to make his way in the world honourably. If he finds it difficult to get a woman then he is living in a degenerate time when both men and women lack honour – as we see today.
          Some poor farm boy/mason/carpenter/Athenian/Spartan etc. who died a virgin in battle is less of a man than a Dan Bilzerian? No.

        2. Nobody respects you. That’s not a social construct. Real men consider you a loser.

        3. Again, if you can only respect a man if he has had sex with a woman, you worship women.
          In the am not saying men should not have sex with women.
          I am saying the mark of a man is what he has done with the talents he has been given and the responsibilities he undertakes.
          A “real man” who can only respect a man if he has had sex with a woman is a boy. Hence, the manhood rites of patriarchal societies. Those societies were far more manly than our societies. A Spartan virgin boy could kill a “real man” of today.
          In your words, a real man is_______

        4. I don’t think you understand that reproduction is the purpose of life. I don’t “worship women”. I just know what I’m evolved to do. A man who fails sexually is a man who fails at his natural purpose. That’s just a scientific reality.
          No boy can easily kill a real man, either. You’ve been watching too many movies. I bet I’d kick the fuck out of you, though, which is kind of funny – you speak of Spartans as real men, but have YOU trained as a warrior? I’m former Infantry and a former Muay Thai boxer. The fact that I’m undoubtedly more like a Spartan than you are probably explains why I’m not having any trouble with women.

        5. The purpose of YOUR life is reproduction.
          That is YOUR reality.
          I hope you do have kids since you would have failed without having them.
          But even if you have kids, they may fail to reproduce, and your line dies out. You may have kids and sadly outlive them.
          We have different worldviews; a man may make a powerful impact on others and even future generations without bearing children. Or he may have kids but they are not the most satisfying thing in his life.
          I am saying life is a little bigger than “I came in 72 women and then died”.

        6. There’s another point about how our sexual success defines us and it’s a scientific fact again. It’s the realization that we are descendant from reproductively successful men alone. Men who failed to reproduce didn’t contribute to our DNA whence we draw our concept of masculinity. This means that our biology has evolved no concept of manhood that exists without a woman and family. It doesn’t recognize a single man, and we only complete the destiny our DNA has written for us when we become a father. Without fatherhood, much of what it means to be a man remains unexplored, and we never complete our biological transformation from boy into man.

        7. I am a father. I have two children, a boy and a girl.
          Fatherhood has greatly changed and impacted me for the better. I love them more than anyone else on this earth.
          But it isn’t for everyone.
          Furthermore, I am sure there are men whose teachings or lives have impacted you independently of whether or not they had children.
          A man can leave a blood legacy – children and he can leave a spiritual legacy – his character and how it impacted others. Ideally one should leave both legacies.
          But of the two, the second is more important. A man may be childless but affect generations to come. A man may have many descendants who simply are born, eat, drink, breed and die with nary a trace of their passing.
          I agree with the original poster.
          Be MGTOW if you want but don’t squander what’s inside of you. Become the best you can be.

        8. The only reason people without children might be able to impact me is due to the eyes and ears and mind my ancestors evolved for me to use, not to mention that I owe them for my very existence. No contribution is even remotely comparable to this, not to mention how temporary and fleeting the things you spoke of are. Every last word spoken by a MGTOW will one day be forgotten, but my descendants shall go on speaking with the voice I gave them until the end of mankind.
          How fucking dare you compare a childless MGTOW whelp to a reproductively successful man! There’s no comparison between us. I am a stable link in an evolutionary chain that stretches back over 4 billion years, but THEY are the first weak link to appear in their own chain for that 4 billion years. I say again, they are the first weak link in a 4 billion year old chain. They’re an insult even to the single celled organisms that came before them. There’s no greater definition of failure. They are not men. Not even close .

        9. You’ve failed to realize that reproduction is the only thing life has truly evolved to do, because reproduction is the only thing with a MEANS to evolve. You either succeed or fail in this task. There’s no other tests in life.
          I have 2 kids and mean to have as many more as possible. Yes, they may all die. Luckily I’m not a loser quitter, then, because they may all live, too. Life’s like that.

  17. As the world becomes more globalized MGTOW becomes even more pointless. You can’t go on strike when the company can just get cheaper foreign labour.
    The only reason the herbivore men in Japan still exist is because the country has tight borders. If foreign PUAs and marriage-minded men were allowed to flood into Japan and take up residence, those waifu-loving dudes would become irrelevant… They wouldn’t even be history.
    I think MGTOW can serve a purpose in a man’s life, particularly when you can live lean and focus on projects that will benefit you long-term. But their “movement” has already lost its core merit of starving the system. What else do they really have?

    1. I guess I don’t really understand the MGTOW “movement”. There are aspects of it I like, namely, taking pussy off that pedestal, which is one of the most important things a man can do with his life. From what I can see, thirst is a far bigger problem than men being a little too unproductive.
      Encouraging men to stop fixating on females and getting rid of the notion that you need a chick to make you happy or whole is great. Starting a “movement” where you encourage other men to be bitter, complain, or be slobs is bad. In other words, it’s all about how someone reacts to the message. Don’t make it a tumblr lifestyle.

      1. I used to listen to some MGTOW channels a while back, particularly this guy Sandman.
        The MGTOW philosophy was going a little deeper than what you mention in your comment. Your comment imo sums up “taking the red pill”. MGTOWs (at least the ones from a year or two ago) seemed to think that if we starve the system and deny women husbands, that we could open an honest dialogue between the sexes, or just strong-arm them into behaving better.
        Looking at the direction things are going, this is obviously a dead-end.
        I have similar feelings towards Aaron Clarey’s “enjoy the decline”.

        1. OK Thanks. I know Roosh dislikes MGTOW, I never really understood that but it makes sense now. To me it was just a message to stop being a slave to pussy and focus on yourself, but it seems it’s far beyond that.
          If you go MGTOW for yourself, I think that’s fine. If you do it because it’s a social movement and you think you will change society, good luck. Some white knight in government will just raise your taxes to give special little snowflake single moms what they need.

        2. I don’t agree with “enjoy the decline”. It’s similar to saying to me to “just move out of the country” instead of fighting…..when it’s my country.
          I think I’ll stand right here, draw the line in the sand and if anyone crosses it then we will come to blows. I’m not letting anyone chase me out of my home (especially a woman or a feminist “man”).

        3. I’m of the same mindset. I don’t begrudge those who want to just enjoy the decline, but for me that isn’t an option. I have 3 children and I would be shirking my duties as a father if I just said “Fuck it. Once I’m gone, it’s your mess.”

        4. Right. Could you imagine if men in the past had simply “quit” or walled themselves away?
          It’s men who stand up, draw the lines and fight when needed.

        5. I agree. And I’m still not convinced that moving to the Phillipines or eastern Europe will make me happier. There is a very conservative family from Poland who recently started attending my church, and they don’t seem in any hurry to go back.

        6. Incidentally, John Cleese and Eric Idle were forced to go on tour last year because of divorce rape. So that’s one good thing feminists gave us. Of course, the same thing took Robin Williams and countless others…

        7. Videos are starting to pour in right now of all the bastard children born to whores in the Philippines from derelict Europeans. Granted clearly the video is an embellishment but that whores are being given kids and people are still treating the place like a sperm depository is cause for concern.

        8. I’d oppose this like whores oppose abortion imposing. If I want to tag a few women, or not, and live with my own time as my main concern, then that’s what I damn well will do!

        9. Has been my go to taunt for years already. Few can handle it when you said it with a dead serious expression ;-).

        10. I look at the phrase “men going their own way” and it strikes the chord of the explorer, the pioneer, and the conqueror within my soul. It isn’t inherently a bad concept rather a commendable one so long as it isn’t perverted to act as a crutch for someone giving in to a defeatist mentality to pretend otherwise.
          I believe it is proper that a man should seek his independence and autonomy, stake his own claims and blaze his own path (insert your cliche here), but like the so-called alt-Right Movement, the MRA menimists and others, I think MGTOW is something better kept at a conceptual level.
          Most “Movements” eventually turn into contests to earn your special snowflake badge and signal your superiority to the other “true believers” before cannibalizing and becoming simple machines kept running solely to maintain the benefits/power of the “leadership.”
          We should embrace the movement of men back toward masculinity (the very thing that truly frightens SJWs and Feminists) and drop all these attempts to form distinctive categories. We may not be able to completely stop the people who want to impede us from sticking labels on our backs (how many times has Roosh tried now to tell “reporters” he’s not MRA), and I’m not of a mind that we should give up on trying to stop their doing it, but we certainly shouldn’t be helping them do it.
          It’s how group-think works when weaponized: pin it down, and then to, something already stigmatized (or invent a negative correlation) and minimize its effective audience, range, and message. In this case, one in direct opposition to our “modern” world, “men are men, women are women, and the how & the why.”

        11. Amen to that. “Enjoy the decline” is just code for “I’m too lazy to join the fight”. They think that somehow, they’ll be at some mythical “poolside” where harm to them does not occur. When the decline comes, that pool gets drained and closed up, fast.

        12. And in certain circumstances, “kuh niggts” can work wonders:
          “You silly white kuh niggts, I fart in your general direction.”
          EDITED: GOJ, aren’t you glad we’ve got him?

        13. What’s funny is that knight actually used to be pronounced “kuh niggt”. The linguistic shift that created modern English from previously existing middle (Chaucer’s time) English changed an awful lot of pronunciations in the language.
          Knife was also pronounced as “kuh-nifee”.

        14. Quite serious. We are a Germanic language and used to be quite literal in our spelling. At one time we were almost mutually intelligible with Frisian and Dutch.

        15. Forget Middle English. That stuff is for first millennium jagoffs, and we all know millennial = pussy. Old English is where it’s at.

        16. Sounds like the Wessex dialect, I think, and likely is due to Ælfred the Great creating a lot of then contemporary texts, including religious tracts. My Anglo Saxon used to be quite good, and I can still read it reasonably well.
          EDIT: D’oh, just got to the end credits, yep, Wessex (West Saxon = Wes(t)

        17. In Ireland they still teach Gaelic in public schools. Which is pretty cool. If I could find a legit Irish broad, she could run her mouth at me in Gaelic all day long.

        18. Gaelic is beautiful, absolutely breathtaking to hear spoken and nearly magical when you hear it sung by a woman (or even man). Nothing even vaguely similar to English of course, Gaelic being a Celtic language and English a Germanic, but they shared the same living space.
          The work of Julie Fowlis is amazingly beautiful. Some of her songs remind me strongly of some things I’d hear my father’s family say or sing.

          This is from WW1 letter written by a Gael to his love back home. English and Gaelic subtitles, to show you how alien Gaelic is to English.

        19. Secondary advantage to liking redheads, nothing like an Irish lass especially if they know some Gaelic.
          Of course there’s a unique flavor for the Irish (or Scots) what put on the brogue in bed as well.

        20. Ms. Fowlis being, of course, Scottish. Which is just another way of saying Irish…who went their own way! See, I brought it back around to the article. Neat, huh? heh

        21. what made you stop listening to Sandman? I listen to some of his youtube videos but don’t necessarily agree with him all the time. Some elements of MGTOW appeal to me (Group A) but don’t subscribe 100% to the philosophy.

        22. Agreed! I too do not like it and makes me not want to take him to seriously. However, I try to focus more on the message than his voice.

        23. Eventually I kept hearing the same thing over and over, and as I explained above I think the philosophy has limitations.
          Sandman’s endgame doesn’t appeal to me.

        24. Men established society, it is ours. Defeatists and cowards relinquish what is rightfully theirs. Men stand their ground.

        25. It was a nice (and unexpected) touch. I was actually trying to give you an opening for something having to do with whiskey, tying into previous discussions, but either way 😉

        26. “MGTOWs (at least the ones from a year or two ago) seemed to think that if we starve the system and deny women husbands, that we could open an honest dialogue between the sexes, or just strong-arm them into behaving better.”
          I know that this isn’t your personal opinion, but I really feel the need to break this concept apart.
          First, the 80/20 principle ensures that the “starving the system of husbands” strategy is doomed to failure. You won’t get the top 20% of men to MGTOW, because they can bang any chick they want, anytime, anywhere, alone or in multiples. And even if you got the other 80% of men to MGTOW, the women wouldn’t care, they’d just keep fucking the top 20% of men, riding the cock carousel, etc.
          Second, the idea of an “honest dialogue between the sexes” is totally laughable, because it requires females to (a) actually be introspective enough to try to figure out what they want, (b) be intellectually honest enough to comprehend what they want and admit it to themselves, (c) conceptualize that in a rational way, (d) relate it truthfully to the other sex, and (e) still want it when they actually get it. Any red pill perspective at all will show you that (a) through (e) are each totally impossible, and I’m sure there’s an (f) through (z) I’m not even considering here.
          Finally, they cannot “behave better.” It goes against their very nature. Leopards can’t change their spots, scorpions gonna scorpion, use whatever analogy you want. Game exists because even if you gave a woman everything she ever wanted on a silver platter, a week later she’d be fucking the pool boy and crying to her friends about how miserable she is because: hamster, hamster, hamster.

        27. Isn’t that the truth?
          We had to read Beowulf in HS, in modern English I got pretty bored with the listings and preparations (not then understanding that it was part of the process expected at the time and considered inherently masculine as it added “troth” to the recounting).
          Then we read it in the original when I got to college and it just sounds suitably masculine, gruff, and inspiring to the ear.
          I wonder sometimes if the alteration to the language has ties to the feminization of the culture, chicken or the egg? Disease or symptom? Or was it something of an innocuous coincidence?

        28. Yes, it is true.
          The altering of the language is due entirely to the outcome of the Battle of Hastings. Had William the Conqueror chosen any other time to invade England he would have been readily repelled, however the English were nigh exhausted from countless raids of Vikings and sorely lacking in many ways. Once William took over, ŒILFrench became the language of court, which drastically altered the Anglo Saxon tongue, both in word choice AND pronunciation. Basically everybody wanting to sound like part of the “cool kids” (court, nobility, royals) Frenched up their English. That created Middle English which, while sharing many similarities to Old English, also became much more readable to the modern eye (you and I). Somewhere around that time there was a general turmoil across Germanic languages and pronunciations which rendered them all nearly mutually unintelligble to each other. I strongly believe that in 800 A.D. a Norseman could land on English shores and be reasonably understood, just as could a Dutchman. After William and the shifts in other Germanic languages, it just became a mish mash.

        29. Unfortunately, John Cleese didn’t learn his lesson…he got married a THIRD time!

        30. I had heard about the push toward French in the courts and it makes sense. Generally speaking it is not something I devote a significant amount of thought to, though it is of interest. So many cultural shifts are traceable through history and are useful as data especially when it ties into song, story, language, etc. You can literally watch the down-turn happen.
          What would you estimate the likelihood of a similar “Spanglish”-based occurrence here, (we already see in slang a definite and expedient adoption of such a thing from other cultures and their languages and what a coincidence that entities such as MTV peddle in slang?) but what of the mainstream US?
          And I wouldn’t be shocked to find that there is an agenda yet to adopt Spanish as our second language (or perhaps some Middle Eastern one in the West at large), an effective tool for defeat of any enemy is to sever communications after all.

        31. Wow! Then again, a great comic needs a little disaster in his life to make him funny.

        32. Spanish has had a strong influence on American English, long predating the current invasion. It makes sense, given the history we’ve had with Mexico and the Old West states where barter languages had to be formed to effectively trade.
          What’s interesting about American English is that in many ways we are more “traditional English” than what the English speak today. Our pronunciation and accents come from a time that predates the trends and changes in England and its use of language, so we still use a lot of “archaic” words that were once common to both languages but are now in decline or disuse in England. You’ll never hear an Englishman worth his salt say “betwixt” or “over yonder”, yet it still exists in heavy use in Appalachia, for example.
          The etymology of words, and language interconnection (indo-european I mean) and historical language shifts and changes *strongly* interests me.

        33. You should be doing a series of articles on it at some point. Tying it together with topics, tendencies and interests of the times.
          It would greatly add to the overall discussion we collectively have here as understanding how we humans communicate (and how miscommunication comes about) is highly relevant to not only our modern society but to our particular virtual one wherein we truly stand in the realm of the mind.

        34. Yeah, he is a bit of self masturbatory about his points. Seems like he made them all within the first dozen or so.

        35. I’ve thought about that actually.
          I was thinking a bit about your “feminization” comment and tying it back to William, it’s no secret that the French invented Chivalry. While originally a code for warriors, it was quickly influenced by nascent feminism and may well be the actual seed of modern feminism. The “defend the honor of the lady” bullshit, etc., didn’t exist in the original Chivalry code, or only in very limited form. As I understand it a French queen (don’t know her name off the top of my head) pushed heavily for the femming-up of the code, up to the point of engaging actual politics to make it happen.
          What happened in France, after William, happened in England. An interesting correlation, since you brought it up.

        36. Ah man, ignorance masking as comedy. I think Douglas Adams (PBUH) was making commentary on comedians starting (when he wrote the piece) to expect the audience to be as ignorant as they are when they go on rants that are only funny IF you are as ignorant as the comedian. He was lamenting that generally, audiences were starting to fulfill this expectation. He used the truly dumb joke about “black boxes in aircraft, and why aren’t planes made of the same material” as an example of this kind of “agreement to ignorance”. Pretty damning from the man who wrote Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.
          I also find this kind of critique of English spelling rather ironic coming from a man who is more or less moving in and out of speaking Ebonics. Heh.

        37. I firmly believe that anything that doesn’t require a woman (in a biologically necessary way) gets worse once a woman is involved or at minimum given influence regarding it.
          And that some men throughout history were literal and figurative eunuchs.
          The trick is keeping them out of the room when “the adults are talking” as it were.

        38. The original code was created to turn rape-and-pillage warriors (think Vikings) into the kind of person that can be generally trusted. It’s kind of like the Old West, where outlaws were known to become lawmen, adopting a code and becoming respected and trustworthy members of society.
          Of course, later we created the whole idea of a police department, and years of feminine influences started sucking some of the honor out of the profession. The more things change…

        39. Aye. I have a very special interest in France, specifically Normandy. William the Conqueror was a grandfather of mine, you see. Needless to say I’ve boned up on a lot of that history and linguistic shifts, etc., strictly out of an utter fascination with my own DNA. Heh.

        40. A while back I heard scientists were working on ways to reproduce without men. If there is an ounce of truth to this, then the whole MGTOW philosophy is pointless.

        41. Scientists are causing men to cease existing. Sounds like a problem that solves itself.

        42. The problem with making Spanish our second language is first we have to have a first language. The US is one of the few countries in the world with no official language. The founding fathers debated the official language issue before just letting it drop. Hebrew was in hot contention for a while as the study of the bible was the first purpose of any educated man.

        43. German and English were the two front runners in that debate though. While nobody made it official, the legal system runs on English so it is the de facto official language without needing to have it declared, I’d think.

        44. If the goal of MGTOW was to deny women children then yes. But, I don’t think that is the goal. As far as I am concerned the MGTOW philosophy is primarily a survival mechanism. The pendulum has swung so far against men that women have just about achieved the ability to imprison any man with her word alone. This makes dealing with women dangerous. MGTOW is just saying this truth and offering different tactics to deal with it. The primary teaching is that you don’t have to have a woman validate your life to be happy. I think this is important for the entire manosphere.

        45. Me too. So I made the radical decision not to listen to him anymore. He is only one voice amongst many basically saying the same things.

        46. “May you grow upside-down, with your head in the ground, like a turnip.” – Yiddish curse
          “May the curse of Mary Maloney and her nine blind illegitimate children chase you so far over the hills of damnation that the Lord himself cannot find you with a telescope.” – Irish curse
          Python is directly funnier taunting, but these are apparantly real.

        47. Alas, we’ve been left hanging. Soothly.

        48. I’d like to incorporate some of these words into my lexicon. But I need a good Old English dictionary.

        49. The correct question was,
          Q) What is the difference between a tribe of clever pygmies and a women’s track team?
          A) One is a bunch of cunning runts.

        50. This is the seed of modern feminism:
          “THE most popular form of idolatry that ever captivated the human heart is the worship of Mary. To the unwedded priest of contemplative mind, Mary has every beauty, every charm, every divine grace. Pure enough to be the chosen mother of that human body in which Deity dwelt, unapproached in her unparalleled honors, chaste as the unspotted snow; she is the queen of his imagination, the ravishing idol of his heart. And as the mistress of his affections, he sings her praises, proclaims her glories, and gives her glowing homage. Those who fail to worship Mary, in his sight, are destitute of moral taste and perception; they are blind to beauty; they are governed by heartless ingratitude; they have no ear for the sweetest voice that ever fell on the ears of angels, or sent its thrilling melodies through the wounds of a bleeding heart.”

        51. If you have an income you will live well in the Philippines. Definitley get far away from the touristy places.
          It’s worth a trip anyways..

        52. Who cares?
          Went to Myanmar in 2004 while it was under sanctions and it was awesome having a country almost to yourself as a foreign tourist.
          Now it’s popular and ruined..

        53. I think he dislikes the “quitter” aspect of it. This is a huge problem in our society, everyone thinks that external factors and others should make them happy.
          “Some white knight in government will just raise your taxes to give special little snowflake single moms what they need.”
          This has already happened here in Canada the key now is to work more cash jobs to counter this destructive shit..

        54. Now these are the malthusians that should be targeted! Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

        55. Some women are real fuck ups. Their default position is ”fuck it, it’s your problem not mine” whether it be credit card debt, food on the table or roof. That form of ‘mgtow’ or ‘lazy irresponsible bitch ow’ or ‘libtow’ is kind of a womany stance for a man. A frustated incompetent woman will frequently say ”I’ve had it” or ”fuck it all”. The same for a woman with her face planted on the screen of ‘women’s channel’ like a blob of Mattel Slime TM thrown at the screen. They become ill when they can’t critically think and begin absorbing all the propaganda. Then they live out the cinematic drama they’ve seen, like monkey see monkey do when they run to the nanny state to ‘start over’ after they’ve eviscerated their man like a black widow and then they throw their kids away to the system saying again ”fuck it, you deal with them. The system uses the woman’s own nature against her. It is calculated.

        56. This is not a response just to driver, but to all who poo-poo expatting. I am reminded of a couple of things.
          First, in the 20’s the smart Jews in Germany had figured out they should play Shepherd. That is, get the flock out of Germany. Others treated them as fools for thinking they should leave.
          The second thing is my tubba-guts, blowhard son-in-law. When he found out I was moving to Mexico, he accused me of cowardice and desertion when I should stay and fight like him.
          The problem is like most of you he wasn’t and isn’t fighting at all. Typing anonymously on the Web forums isn’t fighting. Putting propaganda on Facebook isn’t fighting.
          For ten years, i spent around 20 hours a week on one or another aspect of men’s issues, including suicide counseling divorced men,
          I was known in my rural city of 100,000 people as a father’s/mens rights activist. People gave me shit and tried to screw me with use of my kids.
          Here I am in Mexico and I can honestly say by participating anonymously on the Web as most of you are, I am fighting as much as most of you are. Yet, I am in my own paradise without having to put up with misandry and men who think they are fighting when they aren’t.

        57. Let me know when it comes to blows. I’m going to enjoy watching them cart your behind off to jail on the order of some feminist.

        58. But think of it this way. You and I are but individuals, your so called dead end does not apply to you. You can have a life a slaying pussy, and drinking beer. And without marriage and kids, you will have the money to do so.

      2. Is taking pussy off a pedestal strictly MGTOW or just rational male behavior?

    2. I agree. The whole movement to check out is simply a man’s version of feminism. They’re not happy so we are hearing the nonstop bitching (instead of improving or using the time wisely for other things). There is no need to bitch about it or announce it – that’s what women do.
      Simply use your time wisely, do other things but at least make them productive. Locking yourself up in a room, locking yourself away, playing endless hours of video games – all not productive, not healthy, etc….
      Men do…women complain about shit.

      1. “The whole movement to check out is simply a man’s version of feminism.”
        I disagree. Feminists demand that their society make changes to improve the lives of women. MGTOWs are ignoring their societies and living for their own benefit.

        1. Many (not all) MGTOWs are complaining…just like women and their behavior is on par with many women who identify themselves as feminist.
          Men just do. They don’t complain and tell everyone what they are going to do…they just do it (get it done). These men are free to pursue anything (or not, in the case of women). The announcements by this group is why I believe they are similar to feminists.

        2. I would say, that as a male driven philosophy that feminists want to change the lives of women to a way that suits their male feelings of guilt. In other words, they are actually making the lives of women (and men) worse, not better.

        3. “Men just do. They don’t complain and tell everyone what they are going to do”
          I do believe MGTOW serves to provide an alternative for men. Unless you believe that men as a whole can communicate with each other telepathically. Alas we cannot so until we can we are subjected to communicating via words.

        4. I disagree totally, we need to stop these “man up” and “grow a pair”sayings. We have the right to start our own free spaces and to spread mgtow. Most of men are simply too attached to the vagina and they can’t understand.

      2. Actually I think that feminism is a male philosophy. It is clearly anti-female attempting to change women into men. And the main drivers of it, are men.

      3. Keep in mind feminism is financed with billions of dollars in contrast to mgtow. It’s not like feminism, but who cares if it does? It’s our right. Anyway mgtow is quite better rather than the “man up” philosophy.

    3. Not much really. However, I’ve encouraged my nephew to look into it and not to put pussy on a pedestal during his teen years (something I wish someone had taught me as a teenager) and to focus on improving himself as he grows into manhood. In a lot of ways it could be useful to adolescents but after a few years I don’t see the point of it unless one is an older member and has already had children and was recently divorced raped.

      1. My son and I (elementary school) have read many articles together on ROK over the years. This year the girl crazy started kicking in. He has it totally together, phone buzzes with messages, he responds the next day. All his buddies reach out to him for advice.
        Its not brain surgery people.

        1. Haha, that’s awesome. Kudos, my friend. Kudos. And Kratom too, while I’m at it.

        2. Nice! Unfortunately, my dad would have told me I was going to hell for frequenting a site that gives advice on how to sleep with women.

        3. My 19 year old son is very similar. He gets criticized all the time by some of his more thirsty friends when he doesn’t play like a trained monkey for average women.
          “I don’t have time for anything under an 8” he tells them. Needless to say, he’s pinged all the time by chicks precisely because he’s not some thirsty simp who will settle for a fatty HB 4.

        4. Haha! My son “went out” with one of the prettiest girl in the grade for 2 weeks this year, then suddenly she told him she wanted to take a break. 2 days later hes going out with another one of the prettiest girls, then the Im so sorry- I made a mistake messages started coming in. I told him that it wasnt funny, its human nature, learn it.
          As a father, one of the most valuable things I can teach him is how not let his life be destroyed by women.
          Weve also had many discussions about DNA, heredity, measuring womens genetic value and not just asses, egg donors, etc.

        5. One of the most important things that a father can teach his son is that women are to be an adjunct of his life; NEVER make a woman more than a supplementary role to your life, or you will be setting yourself up for failure.
          I wish my father had told me that.

        6. “As a father, one of the most valuable things I can teach him is how not let his life be destroyed by women.”
          Wish someone had taught me this about 20 years ago. Think of the money and more importantly time we’ve wasted being white knights in the past when all we had to do was take control..
          At least I get it now..

        7. Black dude here, 18 and find it infinitely easy to get with white girls sometimes 10 years my senior

      2. I doesn’t have to be recently. I have found the bitterness of being divorce raped lasts a long time. I try to get past it, and most of the time I do, but then something triggers it and the memories flood back in.

      3. I have always put women on pedestals–it makes it so much easier to perform oral sex on them!

    4. “The only reason the herbivore men in Japan still exist is because the country has tight borders.”
      You are so right.

      1. That’s not the only thing tight in Japan, if you know what I mean. What about that fiscal policy?

    5. It could only make an impact if Alphas GTOW and that means desirable men would have to turn down attractive women en masse. I highly doubt any of these beta MGTOW have very many options and women ignore undesirable men anyway. Such a futile movement.

    6. The MGTOW mindset has a valid point in that feminism was allowed to cultivate and become a global soul sucking castrating phenomenon through the continued ignorance and inaction of men, who were too late and of too little numbers to realize that the man as an entire gender is relegated to 2nd class status by all modern western societies and states.
      Therefore, any dramatic movement which at least acknowledges that women as a collective group, whether they are pure evil or simply brainwashed by the political / multi billionaire elite, are willingly and very viciously trying to obliterate all masculine will to power, deserves some note and recognition, even if it just serves to bring the reality a bit more vividly to the public consciousness.

    7. I always preferred “monk mode” to MGTOW, anyway. Especially when starting down the red path, you need a way to detox and focus on proper mindset.
      One summer in college, I was unemployed and living alone (I had enough saved up to make it last). I spent every waking moment either reading RP materials, absorbing RP materials, or playing guitar for two months, and it made all the difference to me. By the end, I had accepted the reality of my own nature and that of other people.
      That fall semester I made more (valuable) friends, honed my game, and got laid for the first time. Considering I was a total BP loser during the previous spring, I credit it all to that temporary hardcore MGTOW experience.

      1. Good for you.
        I agree I think monk mode is a healthier way to put it.
        Being a monk implies discipline and working towards some kind of goal.

    8. This is true if the borders opened up to marriage minded men decent Japanese women would be all over them.

    9. “…..can serve a purpose in a man’s life, particularly when you can live lean and focus on projects that will benefit you long-term.”
      Put “clarity” in front of this and you have words to live by..

    10. MGTOW is just the male version of the Fat Chick Who Don’t Need no Man (FCWDNM). “I don’t want you anyway bitch”. Weak and pathetic.
      More to the point, what’s wrong with starting a business and trying to sell someone something? Its like these guys have a problem with someone else trying to earn a living.

      1. “More to the point, what’s wrong with starting a business and trying to sell someone something? Its like these guys have a problem with someone else trying to earn a living.”
        What do you mean? Who’s trying to sell and who’s criticizing?

        1. Defensive?!!!
          The MGTOWs dude. It was mentioned several times in the article.

    11. –MGTOW appear to be the male equivalent of feminists.
      — I, for one, am always disgusted when any man plays the victim card.
      — Self pity is one of the most deplorable human mindsets.
      — I visited their website to get first hand info and make my own decision, their homepage is a big ad saying ( paraphrased) voting at all is supporting the system that oppresses us ( males). Idiots don’t understand that if all of the males don’t vote then Hitlery becomes President and the feminazi’s war against masculinity will be a full frontal assault.
      — Site appears to be a bunch of apologists for millennial male losers, mixed with a few good vids and articles about the feminist hypocrisy.
      — I for one, hope they all remain male in their minds, but MEN like many of us here should be mentoring or shaming these millennial pantywastes.

    12. I’m playing around with making my “retirement” plan to grab a backpack and hike into one of those rapidly emptying villages in rural Japan…just live there, maybe send get a P.O. box in a nearby village. If some matronly Japanese widows find their way to my doorstep, all the better.

    13. “But their “movement” has already lost its core merit of starving the system.”
      Starving the system is not the core merit.
      What else do they really have?”
      Saving the individual man is the core merit. And it’s the only merit needed.

      1. Fair enough that is a virtuous purpose… But ultimately it’s a band-aid solution.

  18. As a Christian, i found that i had to become MGTOW because i see the reality of a traditional marriage not being worth chased after any more since even the sweetest virgin girl will be liable to divorce rape me, and my kids will be brainwashed in a government run facility known as public school. Im not knocking anyone in the neomasculine movement, but i personally disagree with whore mongering, even if its as mild as spinning a plate or two every once in a while. Women have no use to me any more, i just see them as economic and emotional suicide.
    The most important thing to me in MGTOW is perseverance. Ever since i was redpilled, i became reconnected with God, i started lifting for my health rather than just looking good, and ive been working a lot harder. I don’t have the most active social life since most of my friends ditched me because of my beliefs, but i still enjoy reading books, watching documentaries, and playing videogames as my downtime.

    1. There are plenty of conservative virgins in more traditional Hispanic and Asian cultures. The first generation ones are less likely to divorce rape you, though it’s always possible. Take a trip, or if you’re really looking for a wife, start up a conversation through social media or dating site and eventually go visit.
      I think this is the message of the article: Don’t let MGTOW be a reason to give up on your dreams. Things are shitty, but we are men, we lived through the plague and the Crusades and The Great War and the Barbarian Invasion and all kinds of calamity but we persevered, and up until the last century, even preserved our beliefs, morals, religion, etc. for thousands of years. We let it go about 100 years ago though.

      1. Yep. Men going their own way only works if the man in question has a way they’re actually going with goals vice simply existing and drifting aimlessly.

      LOL No, seriously, the “divorce rape” thing is just a ridiculous load of shit. It’s not the law that allows women to walk all over you, it’s your attitude. I’m divorced and experienced none of that shit. I wasn’t “lucky”, I was a man… plus my wife was Asian. As I said, Asian women don’t do that shit – a lot of women don’t – and the choice to reject all women based on a few sociopaths married to spineless wimps is a sissy conclusion.

      1. im sure there are marriages out there that end up fine, or divorces that dont ruin lives, i just personally dont care anymore, its not a priority for me. I see marriage as nothing more than a way of keeping a society in check, and a way to pass on morals for future generations.
        Not trying to criticize you here, but its a cop out to call me a sissy based on a fringe example of a happy marriage. The fact remains that in the west over half of marriages end up in divorce, and about 80% of those divorces are initiated by women, and there is plenty of stories shared around the manosphere about good looking and hard working guys getting fucked over by “the one”. Even if i can theoretically settle down with no problem, its still a huge risk im not willing to take, plus i dont feel like having kids just so they can be taught in schools that gender is a social construct.

        1. If you’re worried about getting divorce raped- get an iron-clad pre-nuptial agreement. Don’t let fear of something cause you to miss out on great opportunities. Been married, have three great kids, divorced- but I kept the house and the kids. I don’t regret my marriage (21 years) because without it, I wouldn’t have my kids, there were some really great times. ALSO, if I hadn’t gotten married; when I was 80 I always would have wondered…. what if? I don’t want to look in the mirror some day and have any -what ifs?…

        2. its not that im worried or that im doing MGTOW out of some kind of protest, i just simply don’t care anymore. I get plenty of happiness from my job and self improvement.
          I was depressed when i thought i was missing out by not being married or getting tons of pussy, i see the code now, its all meaningless.

        3. I don’t think of myself as a MGTOW, but I kind of understand. I feel like I have enough on my plate raising my kids and trying to make up for the absence of their mother (she visits, but they’ve come to the conclusion they’re an impediment to her happiness, inconveniences to her). Anyway, I focus on doing the things I enjoy now that my kids are older and if I run across a woman who fits in with that, fine, if not, that’s fine too. I don’t think having a woman is an essential element to happiness, and having the wrong woman can certainly make life more miserable than it can be.

        4. Well, you’re not alone! Geneticists prove modern humans are descendant from 80% of past females, but just 40% of past males. What does this tell us? It tells us that 60% of past men were losers just like you!

        5. lmao dat pussy pedestal. So im a loser cuz i aint got some broad suckin me dry? dont know if shill or just retarded.

        6. Humans are evolved reproduction machines. You’re failing at the one task you were created for. Yeah, you’re a loser.

        7. lmao, spoken like a true leftist. If this was maybe the early twentieth century where a man purposely had to go out of his way to not get a stable career and start a family, then your insult would have hurt my feelings.
          Times have changed, ive already stated that i don’t hate the concept of marriage, i think its a healthy and beneficial tradition that keeps a society in check. Today, the statistics which you conveniently ignored, shows that there are all kinds of economic hurdles to jump through just to maintain a middle class family, and homeschooling is beginning to become outlawed, so i dont really feel like having children just so the government can raise them for me while my wife and i argue about living pay cheque to pay cheque.
          Marriage has become a huge financial risk, especially towards men with things like no fault divorce and child support/alimony. I don’t think things are ideal right now, of course id rather raise a proper family with godly values, but i’m not going to let it cripple me with leftists such as yourself using desperate shaming tactics to convince me that im a “loser” just because im not whoremongering or stuck in a marriage id most likely regret.

        8. Marriage and family has never been easier, you idiot. You’re seriously wingeing about a few laws? You don’t have any balls. In olden times, men faced real problems, like being massacred by Vikings and having their women enslaved. Geez, it’s certainly a harder life nowadays, hey?!
          The truth is you’re just a coward too useless to be a man and tackle your problems head on, so you just run away from them. Thank fuck my ancestors didn’t have your attitude when the Vikings landed on their beaches.

        9. Lmao, back to the shaming tactics and ad hominems eh? I guess its easier than an actual argument.
          First off, you created a strawman argument by heavily implying that i have a fear of commitment, which i never stated. If anything, its the women nowadays dropping men like flies in order to move onto the next best thing, while the men are left high and dry. The basis for my “fear” of marriage is the fact that I live in an area(Canada) where the divorce laws are extremely biased against men, even if the woman doesn’t want to fuck over the guy, he still has to pay her thousands a month, look up comedian Dave Foley’s divorce if you don’t believe me, the guy had to leave the country. Excuse me if I want to protect my assets. Also, the vaguely mentioned periods in history you named were times when women were actually worth fighting for.
          Second, we have an extremely liberal bias in our education and pop culture which encourages both men and women that being promiscuous is fashionable and liberating. The average decent to hot looking chick has slept with over dozens of different partners, its gotten to the point where call girls are less likely to give a guy an std. Promiscuous sex heavily damages a human being’s ability to pair bond with another human, this is why guys are more attracted to virgins, because they are a LOT more likely to be loyal since they haven’t been desensitized to sex, as opposed to a skank who is on a never ending journey of thrill seeking(even if it requires an “open” relationship). If i really felt the need to get off, ill just rub one off real quick or visit a call girl rather than waste thousands on a girlfriend or wife who will leave me broke.
          Third, if anyone here is scared or insecure, its you. Im perfectly capable of making ends meet and living a fulfilling and successful life on my own, so is any man for that matter. You’re threatened by this because the more men who wake up to the scam that marriage has become, then less captain save-a-hoes will be bailing women out before they hit their biological wall, and this includes you. You don’t have to feel bad, im sure your intentions arent to hurt anyone. Just feel bad for the majority of women who decided that a nanny government is the way to happiness and prosperity . The basis for your shaming tactics comes from a cultural meme that made perfect sense in an era where it wasn’t an economic death trap for a man to get married, now its just a laughable cry for help spouted by wall approaching women and cucked out beta providers.

        10. Pointing out that natural selection selects against being you isn’t an attack, it’s a fact.
          I agree 100% about the statement on how promiscuity destroys a woman’s ability to pair-bond, but that’s no reason to give up. That was my point about the Vikings – our enemies used to be things like war, but now our greatest foe is culture. I’d say today’s foe is easier to fight if you put your mind to it, no?
          I came up with 2 solutions to the slut-culture conundrum:
          1. Go for girls as young as legally possible to minimize sluttiness and maximize reproduction value. For me in NZ the age of consent is 16 and it’s possible to find virgins of that age.
          2. SE Asian women have a much favorable attitude towards men and marriage, and it’s not hard to find a virgin over here, either, or at least a girl with only 1 or 2 previous sexual experiences (I’m in Thailand right now).
          The truth is what I said – men used to have to march to war to make reproduction possible, but all you’ve to do today is climb on a plane and holiday in SEA for a bit. You are seriously a pussy and a quitter and you dare to suggest you have a manly attitude?! Man up and find a woman, boy.

        11. Im glad we agree on social issues. My point is that im not losing sleep over not being married, its more than just being with a woman who isnt a total bitch or sellout skank. I don’t want to raise a family in a denigrated society where conservative Christian Europeans like myself are treated as the worst scum, i have no control over my child’s education when i have to make ends meet while homeschooling in my area is extremely limited. Its all a part of globalism, and there isn’t much to do in terms of physically fighting back besides not selling out to the beast system that wants to take away our intellect and souls in exchange for debt and misery. A marriage failing is still a very likely outcome, no matter how much you keep calling me a “loser”, its still an economic hurdle not worth jumping over.
          I said it before and ill say it again, marriage and women are not a priority for me, im not going to rearrange my living situation just to be with a woman. Im also against multiculturalism, i think its a huge cancer killing america and europe. I believe every single nation on earth should preserve their race, culture, and heritage for themselves.
          Obviously it would be better if most people can settle down together. But, we have to face facts, we lost the culture war, we lost the free market economy, and most of society has been dumbed down to the point where they are contempt with it. Ignoring reality by telling me to “man up” is just irresponsible and intellectually dishonest.

        12. Don’t mind my attitude. Honestly, I’m having the same discussions with several people across Disqus and I’ve lazily blurred you all into a single super-villain. You might be copping insults that were meant for other little boys.

        13. I don’t consider reproductive failure an option. I mean, simply put, I want natural selection to select in favor of being me. So I understand all your grievances and appear to agree with them, but the difference between you and me is in the lengths we’ll go to to secure our evolutionary legacy.
          I mean, I place income on second priority to taking care of my family. I’m willing to relocate to the countryside in order to shelter my daughters from slut-culture. I homeschool them (and even if it was illegal, how would the government know you were homeschooling if you lived in the woods?) Or I’d relocate to a place where homeschooling isn’t illegal. I’ll travel all the way to SE Asia to find a good wife. So on.
          This might seem excessive, but life and especially fatherhood weren’t meant to be easy. The difference between us is in our reproductive drives.

        14. Same here. It’s laughable how these guys actually believe getting pussy is awesome. It’s pointless, it’s the same as fast food, you feel pretty great while you do it but afterwards you feel like shit. Why not do something for you instead of putting the pussy on the piedestal and entertaining some dumb bimbo to the point of having her want to sleep with you?Sorry I’m not a fucking social butterfly assclown who actually ENJOYS talking to women. I enjoy doing my own shit and not talking with grown up kids in hope of accomplishing what a good masturbation could do.
          There’s just no point. Maybe some people are morons and let their ego dictates them that getting pussy is cool and stuff but it’s pointless, you get the same feeling when you fuck a fleshlight or a prostitute anyway.

      2. You got lucky. Had she had the nerve she could have ENDED YOU.
        And your bitch ass could have done nothing.

      3. -50+ percent of marriages end in divorce; around 80 percent of those are initiated by women.
        -98 percent of alimony payments are made by men
        -In roughly 86 percent of marriages, women retain primary custody
        I could go on, but I wouldn’t think I would have to argue how marriage is an obscenely terrible raw deal for men on a site that is apparently “pro-male”.

        1. Those statistics are misleading, though. One example of how is it greatly depends on the TYPE of woman involved. Virgin brides, traditional girls, or SE Asian brides are all examples of women who don’t conform to those statistics.
          Besides, what are you suggesting? That men give up on girls? Any self-respecting man with a healthy sex-drive won’t do that, so the answer is to share ideas on how to find and keep the right type of girl.
          The answer is to SOLVE the problem you point out. What kind of man considers giving up to be a solution?!

        2. No, I’m suggesting that if you want women, go ahead and fuck them, but by all means don’t commit to them. You cannot solve a problem that is internalized within the institutionalized system. You cannot solve a problem that is internalized in human nature (e.g. hypergamy). The only way the problem can be “solved” is if the State falls and a patriarchy is reestablished. To act like the MRM has had any progress or success in doing so within its lifetime would be a joke at best.

        3. Also, Asian brides don’t conform to those statistics? Take a look at China as it is becoming more “Westernized” and “modernized”. The only reason the divorce rate isn’t even higher is because the laws don’t help divorced ex-wives nearly as much as they do in NA.

        4. I want children. What’s your answer there?!
          Also, hypergamy doesn’t bother me because I go for SE Asian women who are much poorer than me and thus immensely attracted to me.
          That is to say, I use hypergamy in MY favor. It’s a good thing because it allows me to land super hot brides.

        5. My question to you is do you plan on settling in SE Asia and not coming back to Western civilization (I assume you’re American, but I don’t know for sure)? Once she adapts to the new environment, you’d be surprised how much she’ll change compared to when you first married her.

        6. This simply isn’t true. I don’t know where you’re getting this, but women don’t change that much.
          In the first 5 years of marriage, I’ll have her pregnant 4 times, also, with more babies coming. One of the major problems with modern Westerners is they don’t have kids. Women with a lot of kids aren’t going to leave their provider.
          As I keep saying, these MGTOW gripes are all avoidable.

        7. “In the first 5 years of marriage, I’ll have her pregnant 4 times, also, with more babies coming. One of the major problems with modern Westerners is they don’t have kids. Women with a lot of kids aren’t going to leave their provider.”
          Tell that to all the men who went to child custody court and were given a settlement of seeing their kids once every other weekend at best. Women can leave their provider once the State legally extracts your income straight from your pocket to hers.
          The only way you can avoid this is you go MGTOW or you stay married in a traditionalist country where the laws aren’t so favored towards women.

        8. Whatever. You’re just a wuss. A woman’s throw-rug.
          Here’s my response: The moment you perceive a divorce is imminent then take the kids and get on a plane to Thailand. Even if she figures out where you’ve gone, it’s not illegal to “kidnap” your own kids in Thailand, and the police here won’t arrest you for petty shit.
          If she fucks with me then she’ll never see her kids again nor any of my money.
          However, my women are aware of this – they’re afraid of it – and they won’t fuck with me to begin with because of it. They know I’m not a throw-rug.
          I’ve got absolutely nothing to fear from ANY woman, okay. So save your sissy-stories. They are lies for cowards without balls who cannot fight back, and real men should dismiss them entirely.

        9. “Whatever. You’re just a wuss. A woman’s throw-rug.”
          Hmm… nice shaming language.
          “Here’s my response: The moment you perceive a divorce is imminent then take the kids and get on a plane to Thailand. Even if she figures out where you’ve gone, it’s not illegal to “kidnap” your own kids in Thailand, and the police here won’t arrest you for petty shit.”
          I’m not sure where you’re from, but I am an American. Doing such a thing by going to a country with an extradition treaty with the U.S. is a huge fault in strategy.
          “I’ve got absolutely nothing to fear from ANY woman, okay. So save your sissy-stories. They are lies for cowards without balls who cannot fight back, and real men should dismiss them entirely.”
          Lol, have fun when the government forcefully detains you into custody after the extradition trial. I doubt you’ll even get the standard ‘see your children once every other week’ policy at that point. Also, please point out one “lie” that I stated. All of the statistics are from academic research statistics or government posted material. They’re much more inclined to UNDER-REPORT the raw deal that is marriage for men.

        10. Even American police can’t and won’t track you internationally for something as petty as going on a sudden holiday with your own kids. They don’t have the resources.
          So, basically you’re a wimp who won’t stick up for yourself, and you wonder why women would try to fuck you over? LOL
          “Hmm… nice shaming language.”
          That line made me snort with laughter. You’re putting your foot down, are you? You’re a strong, independent man who refuses to be a victim anymore? LOL Just fuck off.

  19. MGTOW is a joke these days. It is another form of decadent modernism.
    The MGTOW movement started as a rejection of the male-female social contract. The contract did not respect the male side of the deal so men went on strike. Fine
    But then they went full retard and claimed any criticism based on their looks, lifestyle is shaming. Well duh retards. Just because the male-female social contract is broken does not mean all other social contracts are. Men force each other to be manly so they as a tribe will be efficient.
    Instead they react like feminists who are shamed for being overweight by claiming to be empowered and telling others to fuck off.
    These people also don’t believe in race or nationalism. They have no tribal identity. They have no touch with their ambitious masculine side. Just rootless hyper-atomized individuals ignoring any obligation to tribe in the name of hedonism while pretending their flipping off women and not fellow men when they refuse to show tribal solidarity.
    These people are to some degree like feminists. They believe in the brotherhood of cock. All men, even from enemy tribes will come together to defeat gynocentrism. Meanwhile Muslims are just coming to Europe to kill them and rape, while they pretend gender relationship matter more than the upcoming race war.
    They literally don’t believe in any contribution to tribe. Again justifying it with fighting female privilege or something.
    Meanwhile Muslims are organized racially against Europeans. But who cares about race, responsibility. Stop shaming me into defending the culture that offered me the comfort to bitch at women behind a screen.
    Go fight the race war while I jack to porn and do nothing for my fellow European brothers in the struggle for reclaiming Europe.
    These guys literally defended the Cologne rapists, siding with foreign men over local women, just like feminists.
    Gas these fags. Anyone who believes being masculine is a burden and shaming them for being fags is gynocentrism is retarded. Thry will not sacrifice an inch for their fellow Europeans because they are angry at bitches being stupid and would rather side with Omar the rapist then protect fellow women and brothers.
    Rootless hyper-atomized hedonistic lazy pieces of shit.
    Race > Gender. Anyone retarded enough to side with rapefugees over local women because of stupid squabbles with females must leveled with a concrete roller.
    The race war is what matters now and these faggots refuce to fight for their continent because they are lazy fags who believe masculine standards imposed by other men is gynocentrism or something and they are angry at woman being retarded (duh).

    1. I always wonder what the young German men are doing when they hear about their women being raped and fondled. If it was me, I would out whopping some muslim ass.

      1. The Germans I’ve met in America.. wait let me correct that.. the YOUNGER Germans I’ve met in America (<30) are rather coddled and weak. But really that’s only a logical step after starting 2 violent world wars within a lifetime, that a calming education and indoctrination system be instituted to pacify them. They can’t even really tell me much about Nazis except to apologize. I think Americans know more about Nazis that Germans (thanks to the Hitler/History channel).

      2. They’re shuffling their feet while their women are raped. Most European men are the biggest cowards now.

        1. Well depends.
          On college campuses they get “raped”
          On streets at night they get rape… I mean culturally enriched by new Germans. Gee what an experience, eh ?
          Ain’t it fun to be free of patriarchy ?

        2. Maybe because it’s clear that the women are not ‘their women’ at all.

      3. ” Lol, typical white knight beta. The females are using you. You should side with the man every single time, don’t you know ? You are a gynocentric pussy if you do anything for women. You won’t shame me into fighting for women. I will sit on my ass and play XBOX and go be bros with Muhammad so we can destroy genocentrism together. Fuck you pussy worshiping nationalist ” – MGTOW

        1. Some things stick in your mind forever. I can still picture this 1980s German porn lady talking about her love of scat with this HUGE smile on her face. I can’t understand much German, so I had to take the translators at their word that they were putting the correct text on the screen, but man, it was something else.

        2. It’s early, but you are in the lead for winning the internet today.

        3. Your Friday jokes should be illegal, but with our laws you would probably just get eggs-oneration

        4. You know, Cab Calloway shaped at least 33% of my philosophy on women (go-to responses, walk, and gestures included) though I’m sort of a pale carbon copy:

      4. The young German women welcomed in the Muslim rapefugees with open arms (and likely open legs, too); not only that, many of them also defended their rapists and even condemned the German men that were trying to help them.
        The last thing that German men need to do is start playing “White Knight” to a nation full of ungrateful harlots and whores; they need to make sure that the German women suffer for their stupidity, and have them learn that bad choices have bad consequences.

        1. If your mother, sister or daughter was attacked by Muslim, would you stand by? I would gladly kick some Muslim ass just for the fun of it.

        2. You are entitled to your opinion. I will hold your white charger while you go white knight for sluts that will despise you some more. You can take my share.

        3. My wife, my daughter, my sister? Sluts? Wow. You are cuckoo buddy. If you can’t/wont protect the women in your life, you cannot call yourself a man.

        4. First, comparing daughter, mother, sister to other women is not an analogy, it’s a cheap guilt-trip ploy to manipulate someone’s emotions. Have you ever made out or had sex with a woman? That’s terrible, what if that was your mother/sister/daughter? You should be ashamed of yourself.
          Second, those women are adults and, in the age of feminism, are “equal” now. Let them handle their own problems. They need you like a fish needs a bicycle, right?

        5. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. You clown. Your slutty sister should stay inside then, eh?

        6. Despite a lot of guys dropping out, if your tribe or village was under attack, most men would respond. We would defend our property and the rest of the weaker members of our society, including feminists. Thats what men do, regardless of the political climate because we know no one else can do it. If you hide and run away from threats, you are a coward.

        7. You’re a collective-minded bitch. It’s guys like you who have allowed feminists to steam-roll the culture. Your head is up your ass with centuries old chivalry codes that have allowed you to be manipulated to this current breaking point.

        8. If you dont have a a logical response, just replay with foul language., just like A SJW.

        9. What’s not logical? Your uber-chivalry is the weak point. YOU are what has been taken advantage of. There are always dopes like you to rush in and save the day (and not get laid…almost…but nah). Your life is fully manipulated.

        10. A collective minded bitch for declaring he would stand up for his property/family???
          What world are you on where this is wrong?
          Don’t give a fuck about your women, but I will fight to the death to protect mine.
          Totally different context and if you can’t see his point then it’s a shame.

        11. He changed the context, Thusar. He went from ‘women’ in general to his ‘mother, sister and daughter’. There is all the difference in the world. Okay, Thusar? Thusar of the Highlands or Thusar of the Lowlands?

      5. Why should the young men of Germany, Sweden, or elsewhere in Europe do anything to protect these women from the consequences of their actions and the policies they overwhelmingly voted into place. These are the women holding up signs saying “Refugees Welcome” and handing out flowers and candy, and “Not on my behalf” while the rapes and mostly assaults go on. I say it is a huge learning opportunity for the mass of women in Europe. Don’t stand in their way.

        1. Self-preservation. They don’t want to live in an Islamic society….

      6. That is the kind of archaic ‘man up’ throwback shit that is currently being taken advantage of by feminists. You are part of the problem.

    2. Feminists tore up the social contract in the late 60s. And society has gone from celebrating manliness to hating it. I am a veteran who used to at least slightly encourage my sons to go into the military for the benefits. Now I see no reason why any man should contribute one iota to a society that hate s him and wants to do him harm. So that means “manning up” to help serve the tribe is trash. Let the tribe show that it has even the slightest concern for men and that might change. I will not be holding my breath.

  20. If anything, the author and editors should be shamed for starting sentences with “Us men.”
    It’s “We men.” “We” is a subject pronoun. “Us” is an object pronoun.
    I’m a bad-grammar-shamer. And don’t me a Nazi, goyim.

  21. I’m far from satisfied with where I am in life regarding women, money, social skills, et cetera. But I’ll be damned if I just give up now and become a symbiotic organism dependent on my XBOX.

  22. So funny how Group B MGTOW’s are trying to shame men who take responsibility and take action to make their lives better.
    Dear MGTOW’s, what did you achieve this year, besides complaining about women and your job and….?

        1. He has never not succeeded in failing to not succeed at entertaining me, as well.

        2. No need for that to hurt your brain at all, it’s quite simple.
          The guy that made the video about other peoples failures, although may have failed at times himself, has always succeeded in making good videos about how others fail to succeed, as well as succeeding concerning his ability to avoid the failure when entertaining people without fail, while providing them with tips on how to succeed while discussing such failures.

    1. Fantastic video. Where did they find an actual old soul Englishman? I thought those kind were extinct?

  23. Well said Corey. Everyone has to walk away at some point whether it is breaking up with a woman, leaving a job, or walking away from family. When things cause you to question your moral standings and what you have become or allowed, walk away. That is the right response. You don’t do yourself any favors by staying away. Learn game. Then learn how to be an attractive man. Learn how to have friends. Learn how to enjoy your worth. Learn how to create a passive income. You are worth more than your own dick in your hand and a sob story. For Christ’s sake, if you are really about what you say you are about, a woman will stand by your side even while you openly express your MGTOW stance! Life was meant for living.

  24. MGTOW is what got me into the manosphere and has shaped a lot of my views of the world. More importantly, I’ve also used it as a form of self-improvement. The problem is that many MGTOW have this defeatist attitude towards life and end up essentially becoming the equivalent of feminists in how they act like everyone’s out to get them and everything is a conspiracy. For example, I’ve been listening to Sandman’s Youtube videos every day for about 2 years now, but I’m thinking of quitting because he’s been falling into that rabbit hole and all of his solutions to problems seems to be sex robots (He brings them up almost every episode).

    1. Was going to post this comment almost verbatim. MGTOW is how I discovered sites such as ROK and the rational male blog. However, I broke form MGTOW because of the defeatist attitude and I really didn’t want to be part of a movement that only has a means of walking away from the problem instead of trying to find a solution to it.

      1. I’m in the same boat as you. I still follow MGTOW but not as obsessively as I once did. My view on MGTOW is that you’re free to live life as you want to live, but children and marriage are a bad idea. I think this is the general consensus with many people. However, MGTOW seemed to become more dogmatic with “rules” being put in place that would actually limit your freedom as opposed to expanding it.

      2. As stated above, if you think MGTOW is a movement you are doing it wrong.

    2. same here, used to watch some videos of him, but he and his whole community become full Group B MGTOW’s.

    3. I think one of the problems is that the group B guys have not yet discovered their purpose in life is. Looking for your ultimate goal is that beacon of light from a lighthouse in the night sailing for months out at sea.
      You could say you would want to educate fellow men the truth to the sea of lies men are presented with all their lives. Whatever your life purpose is, find it and work on it.

      1. Group B guys also tend to be younger (Late teens or early 20’s) and are far from reaching their peak, so they think this is how the world will be forever and they give up. This is also where the true forced loneliness types tend to develop. But life gets better for guys as we get older and I’d say the worst thing to do is give up so early in life. I’m 30 now and I have to say that my value has increased so much since I was 25. This only could’ve happened with the self-improvement I implemented day in and day out. The rewards were slow, but I’d much rather be where I am now than the blue pill mangina I was at 25.

  25. Why do you care about so-called MGTOWs criticizing you? Similarly, why do you care if they (or any other arbitrary collection of people) ever improve their lives?
    I don’t get all the angst in the manosphere lately, where this group attacks that group and whatever. It’s feminine behavior. Men simply need to do what makes them happy. If that’s video games and porn, so be it. If it’s chasing pussy, so be it. If it’s trying to fix the fucked up world we’ve inherited, great. But just go do it. Don’t explain yourself to anyone else online. Or offline, for that matter.
    This need to be part of a group or a label (or the need to attack another group or label) is retarded.

    1. Yeah, I only look as MGTOW and PUA and neomasculinity as positives. Are there neckbeards who live in their basement? Probably a few. Are there dirty sleazy guys who tell whatever lies to bang multiple women a day, and are nothing but male sluts? Yeah. Are there neomasculinists who take the belief to an extreme where they hate women and anyone who doesn’t stand up to their ideals? A few I’m sure.
      But overall the message of all these movements to me, is a positive one. The key is being reasonable, which most humans are unable to do.

    2. “Why do you care about so-called MGTOWs criticizing you? Similarly, why
      do you care if they (or any other arbitrary collection of people) ever
      improve their lives?”
      Because I was in a similar situation when I was feeling lost in life, and no one helped me because they didn’t care. I just want other men who are feeling lost to know that they can do better for themselves.

      1. Fair enough. I guess I’m losing my empathy as I get older and the world gets darker, lol.

    3. Labels exist because people end up identifying with one label or another, for better or worse. Or people get crammed into a label, for better or worse. Of course if labels didn’t exist, that liberal wet dream of everyone being the same would come to fruition. And that gives me the creeps.

  26. “going your own way toward what” is such a good question. Corey really nails it with this question. Are you going your own way towards being great without letting women interfere or, well, the photo above.
    I have said it before, I am saying MGTOW + which is MGTOW (with the caveat that the way you are going is towards greatness…thanks Corey) with the addition of emotionless sex.

  27. Former MGTOW here, and proud to admit I made a mistake for associating myself with it. Everyone has a “weaker” phase they go through, glad I have moved on from “waahhh why won’t women accept me for who I am???”.

  28. MGTOW is fine with me. I see no reason to be critical of those men. After all they are out of the race. Why talk shit about them regardless of why or how they came to be MGTOW.

    1. It’s not talking shit so much as noting that all that they do is sit around a bitch bitch bitch all the damned time (type B, not A). If they want to “go their own way” then that’s great, but to become the male equivalent of the perpetual victim feminist is unnerving and un-manly. Go your own way and stop whining, I say.

      1. Type A MGTOW can best be construed as “alpha MGTOW”, a sort of fellow is has gone his own way (and in any way) out of his own needs and desired.
        Type B MGTOW are beta MGTOWs who need a “MGTOW movement” to be a part of an commiserate with.
        That’s basically the way I see it.

      2. That whining and bitching shit is annoying. Still good for the dearies to hear. The stoic masculine man is good for maintaining order but the whining type we despise is great for upsetting the feminine imperative.

  29. This article does not accurately describe the more philosophical MGTOW like Stardusk or Barbarossa. But there are plenty of guys who seem to have this bitter undercurrent of “You can’t have my money ladies!” running through everything they say, like women are watching their channel and shaking their fist at another man’s wallet slipping out of their grasp.
    Call it the anger phase; they’ll get through it.

  30. From my perspective, the MGTOW “Group A” men are those who have woken up from the Feminine Imperative, and broken free from the anti-male cultural indoctrination, and are in the process of rebuilding themselves. They are focused on “going their own way” in order to get back to who they really are. Almost like a long-time alcoholic who goes cold turkey – he has to completely dry himself out and figure out how to function and be himself again without the booze.
    The “Group A” MGTOWs fit that mold, in that they are distancing themselves from everything associated with the Feminine Imperative in order to regain their own internal male imperative. For some of them, this is a temporary stage of development. Others find their life more fulfilling by living this path on a long-term basis.
    Look at it through the alcoholism analogy again: they realize they are better off without this potentially destructive force in their lives. They realize other men can drink and be merry, but for them, the better option is to avoid it completely. Why they choose this path can differ for each man… one may realize one-itis is his biggest weakness, and having experiences the depths that condition can bring him to, he chooses to avoid the risk all together. Another man may decide that his life is simply better in monk-mode, and he doesn’t need to drink at all. I can understand and respect those decisions, and I think when we as other men see those Group A MGTOWs, we’re okay with it. We see that they have their shit together and have made the choice to live their life a certain way that makes them happy.
    The Group B MGTOWs are the ones we instinctively find repulsive, and I think that is because we see the inner weakness that the Group B is trying to hide. Group B MGTOW isn’t about rising above the Feminine Imperative, it is about hiding from it. It isn’t about growing and developing outside of the negative cultural influences, it is about wallowing in your laziness and misery. You want to play video games all day and jerk off? Fine, do your thing. But don’t tell me you are doing it because you have reached some better place in your life, and you are some kind of rebel fighting against the Feminine Imperative and global corporate system or whatever.
    Group B MGTOWs are just lingering in one of the “grief stages” of red pill awareness. Too anger and resentful at the truth of the world to do anything but withdraw, bitch and hide. Or too depressed and dejected to do anything but self-isolate and ruminate on the unfairness of it all. They aren’t really “going their own way,” they are just sitting it out on the sidelines.
    You can step outside the enforced cultural norms and expectations, and then devote your life to doing whatever you want for your own comfort and enjoyment… but if you are just doing it to pass the time and distract you from the crap gnawing away at your soul from the inside, all you are really doing is just waiting to die.

  31. MGTOW Group B gravest sin is leading people astray. Instead of showing them path to better future, its the dark road of self withdraw. Group B is most vocal part of the MGTOW movement in the broads and comment sections of the websites. So causal reader will think, that giving up on society and playing video games is the only option for me. Lets not forget, Group A is problem as well.
    Group A, realize that chasing girls is neglecting their own self growth/worth and stop focusing on pussy. Group A starts on the path of self improvement and handling their own problems. Unfortunately, this leaves Group B to run off their our mouth about women and give bad advice. Group A needs to start the smack down on Group B for being keyboard warriors and not better men.
    I don’t follow the teaching of MGTOW. I focusing on Neomasculinity at the moment, since I can’t withdrawal from society. Sooner or later the feminists/leftists will go after everyone that does not follow their enlighten path. At least with red pill we build something to counteract the changes brought upon dark of enlightenment given by feminists/leftists for men and women. That just my opinion. I’m getting off my soapbox and let you decide what way for you to go.

    1. Because there is no future, and when you realise it, you will find Neomasculinty to be of no merit. Feminism is not going to go, it is firmly embedded in institutions, and supported by very rich people. Feminism was inevitable after women were given education and property rights, and the possibility to be promiscuous without consequence through the pill. These innovations are not going away sadly.

  32. I think part of the “Group B” malaise is the inability to find meaningful pursuits. I have dealt with it in my own life. Working two jobs to afford a lifestyle that no one would describe as extravagant, when I’m not working I’m taking care of 100% of the cleaning/laundry/bill paying etc. Getting very little time off, it’s tough to marshal the energy to learn a new language/learn a martial art/go to a museum. Don’t get me started on game; if you get 1-2 nights to enjoy yourself you prob just want a couple of cocktails, a good meal and to watch a ball game, not to deal with chasing some 7 who thinks she’s a supermodel because she buys into empowering drivel.
    I’m not saying this to complain, it’s just to communicate what I struggle with and I don’t think I’m the only one. Or am I crazy? 🙂

    1. I think you’ve got it right for the most part. I work a part time job that is sometime full time and I am also in school. I am afforded having Saturday night off as well as Sunday and those days are usually spent doing something I find meaningful or like you said, grabbing drinks and catching a game. If I used that time spent on gaming women, even if im somewhat successful, I view it as a waste of time and energy. Right now my meaningful endeavors are reading/studying philosophy and finding quality metal/rock bands to listen to as well as working out for health purposes. I make sure to use the time I have off for those meaningful pursuits.

      1. I don’t know how old are you, but if you’re say, in your mid 20s tops, I can see and understand your views towards game. I compare pussy to cheesecake. Both are delicious, but you don’t want to overindulge.

        1. I’m 26. I think im just mostly tired of gaming girls within my SMV and having nothing to show for it. I know for a fact that some of my approaches are cumbersome and there are definitely things I need to work on. But other times I have pretty solid approaches that account for absolutely nothing. One thing I’ve gained from this redpill lifestyle is I’ve learned to stop putting pussy on a pedestal and just living life for me. I made the grave mistake from basically age 15 to 21 of going all out for girls which was a terrible way to live life. I still catch myself sometimes attempting to put girls up there but quickly resist the urge to do so.

        2. If I may interject, I see part of the reason that you’re coming up short on approaches. You still subscribe to “in my SMV”, or “in my league”, which is a perfect way to cripple your confidence. Approaching any girl and thinking “this is about as good as I can hope for” throws off a bit of a tell to women, which would discourage them.
          Start hitting on 9’s and 10’s exclusively for a while. Get used to the rejection, but also get used to only interacting with them. Once you don’t give a shit what they say or how they reject you, those girls “in your SMV” will be easy game, you’ll have confidence out the wazoo. Especially if a 9 or 10 takes you up on your Game, then you’re batting 1000 for the rest of your life with “lesser” women.

        3. You’re definitely correct and I actually do approach those women, but just not as often as I probably should. I usually dont think of my smv when approaching women, but mostly used it as an example for this conversation. I have been rejected a lot but it continues to build confidence. Thanks for the comment!

        4. Agreed, I normally don’t approach 9s or 10s, just figure their attitude is going to be horrible, and thanks to social media it probably is, but I went up to one this weekend, had a great conversation, and asked for her number. Even though she resisted because she “has a boyfriend”, I played it off like I didn’t care, I still wanted to talk to her some time again, and she caved and gave me the digits.
          She may have second thoughts about cheating, and reconsider meeting me. But she’s now an option for me. And more importantly, once you see 9s and 10s respond to the same stuff as the “in your SMV” girls do, if not moreso because they are not approached as much, you will ratchet up gaming them.

    2. Upgrade your “human capital”. In other words, what free time you might eke out, take up pursuit of skills that allow you to move to a better paying career/job/business venture so that you don’t have to work two jobs. For example, working night shift as a security guard, when you get a spare cycle or two between rounds, pick up and read about C# or VB.NET or ASP or Java and practice on your laptop. Pretty soon you’re in a career that pays you a ton more money, for a whole lot less work, and badda bing, you now have ample free time in life to get by. Nobody is going to give you anything, you have to reach out and take it for yourself.

      1. Well I’m in sales primarily so I’m working on trying to make more scarola at that job and quit the 2nd one.
        PS great Frank Costello quote 🙂

  33. In my case, I’ve withdrawn from dating for the moment out of necessity, or to use a legal business term, restructuring. After a rocky relationship, I had to start from scratch. Now, I’m doing the things I was supposed to do in the beginning, like resume working out, opening a retirement plan, advancing my work skills, etc., all in the hopes of eventually marrying and having kids. I can do this because I’m used to living on my own, and I like to have hobbies. And as a man, I have the advantage of at least in theory, of still being desirable, or as they say, as good catch, something that women my age are in a big disadvantage. The club here is, keep your mind busy and always view life as a game of chess. Always try to think many moves in advance.

  34. I hate to say it, but every MGTOW channel I have watched on Youtube, always seems to be run by a faggotty gamma type.

  35. I only know 3 MGTOW and i have to use ´em as an example:
    1- Guy works next to my, 36 years old, lives alone (in a steps´s father property), makes a really low wage for his skills, lots of “social live” like “i bang lots of girls”… never seen with one, i have a lot of fun while partying…with guys 10 years younger. My veredict: FUCKING LOOSER
    2- Guy works on my business, makes good money, 41 years old, lives with his brother who is 32, drink and smoke a lot, only have sex with prostitutes, live in the outskirts and look like heroin users. My veredict: FUCKING LOOSER
    3- Guy makes a lot of money, fat, nerd, main hobbies are videogames, junk food and computing. Only have sex with low life women, basically divorced women with kids (fat women). My veredict: guess…
    Sorry for not watching a big deal on MGTOW movement

    1. Same here. Oddly enough, for being a stereotypically macho environment, construction has a quite a bit of guys like this. Even the married men have this type of mentality.

  36. After Elliot Rodger became a famous male virgin for about 15 minutes in 2014, RamZPaul made a video about him where he compared Elliot to the youthful George Washington, who in 1755 wound up in a firefight with the French and Indians in General Braddock’s disastrous expedition into the Colonies’ backcountry. Washington acquitted himself well enough in a bad situation to become celebrated as a hero. Washington was about Elliot’s age at the time, and RamZPaul speculates that Washington was probably a virgin as well.
    Uh, I kind of doubt that. In Colonial Virginia, the men in the landowning families like Washington’s had access to female slaves and indentured white servant girls, so George might have already gotten some sexual experience, perhaps encouraged with a wink and a nod by his older half-brother Augustine.
    That aside, RamZPaul makes the broader point that Washington got off his ass at an early age and went out into the world to do things, even putting his life at risk. If you concentrate on acquiring experience of the world without worrying about finding female companionship, instead of sitting in your parents’ basement all day like many MGTOW, the problem of attracting women might solve itself.
    Or it might not, but at least you’ll have something to show for your time and have bragging rights to it.

  37. It’s all about having positive control of your life.
    Group A – In Control
    Group B – Passive
    The Duke Brothers are Group A. Example below:

    1. I think the key is – for a man to be going his own way, he has to have a way he’s going with goals. That’s the difference between A and B. A is living their life with a purpose, while B are drifting aimlessly without purpose.

      1. True, but Winthorp hooked up with a prostitute, presumably for LTR.

  38. I am gonna be honest. I thought MGTOW was much more different. I never said out loud that I was one, but I thought it was a different lifestyle. I thought MGTOW was being goal driven to achieve your dreams in life, and the things that didn’t fit in your mold for what you want your end result to be were cast out of the equation. had no idea it was a bunch of grown up children with no goals or aspirations. Am I wrong? or did the whole MGTOW movement begin as a much more “honorable” trade? educate me.

    1. I think my reading the comments here, there are two types of MGTOW’s. The one who is honorable and able to generate goals and things to work for while denying the feminist imperative as well as rejecting societal norms. And then there is the other MGTOW where its just weak guys who can’t get girls who use this movement as a means of fighting back and saying “screw you ladies, you’ll never have me” all while not doing anything to better themselves. So the negative connotation that comes from the second group is what hurts the group as a whole.

    2. Well, there can be MGTOW who have no goals, yet I grew up on MGTOWs who had goals, who had jobs, who lifted weights… But there is the element of checking out of society that sucks.

  39. Well done. Very well done.
    I find that the concept of MGTOW expresses my views as well as anything does. I think the distinctions you’ve made a fairly accurate and useful.
    I do want to point out though that from my perspective that PUAs have their group A and B as well. For some men, women are just a more socially acceptable obsession and addiction than porn or video games. Trying to live porn isn’t really a step up from watching it.
    I’ve wasted a lot of time gaming, both the video version and the chasing girls version. I was never any good at either. Notches on a bed post and achievements are both hollow. After getting them I don’t feel fulfilled.
    At this point in my life work and parenting are what fulfill me. Being fantastically good at my job means something killstreaks and bangs can never mean.
    What I excel at means something to people other than myself. Gaming only means something to myself, which means it doesn’t mean anything really.

  40. MGTOW is becoming the manosphere equivalent of the Alt Right, constantly criticizing its own side. Instead of “are you a Jew?”, “how can you believe the Holocaust happened” they attack men for the reasons you described. If you want to go your own way GO YOUR OWN WAY, stop trying to “help” men. Leave brochures on the table and go away.

  41. Pessimism is one of the Left’s greatest weapons. It makes you not give a shit about anything in life, and men who don’t have anything to fight for are easy foes. Pessimistic men who don’t try to achieve things or improve themselves in anyway are doing exactly what the Left wants. “Keep your mouth shut and numb your mind with pointless shit like video games and t.v.”

  42. Excellent article. I just removed the MGTOW bookmark link from my page. I cannot think of anything more repulsive than a man who does not wish to make himself better, and who is not enthralled by pussy 🙂

  43. MGTOW always seemed more to me about using the removal from society as a way to protect their self interest and also maybe as a protest. While removing yourself from as much as society that is possible today you are reducing liability and risk, you are really gaining nothing on the other side of the ledger. And, if it is also a form of protest, no one mainstream is noticing or if they do really cares.
    Yeah, the deck is stacked against men these days (especially white men). But, the answer to that reality is to tackle it head on not retreat from the battle. The war is never going to be won if men go hide on small uninhabited islands hoping all will eventually blow over. That is simply not a realistic answer to the problem confronting us.

    1. The deck is stacked against men today, but not particularly against white men. Yes, the white man is the great Satan, but they screw over black men, and red men, and brown men even more than white men. Let me add that I am a red headed pale skinned Irish descent white male. White men are just the main adversary because the feminists are using the divide and conquer strategy and white men are the first on the list as we have more power than the minorities. They are coopting the minority men by making it about the white men. Once we are crushed permanently under their stilettos, the minority men’s turn will come. Feminism is all about white MC/UMC women stealing power.

      1. This is how much the feminists have it out for white men.
        A woman in my company (a rather large one) who worked in HR was just fired because an applicant overheard her saying, after an interview, “while obviously we aren’t going to hire him….I don’t want white men working here…” The applicant ended up suing and settled for what was an undisclosed sum (rumors were it was for around $20,000).
        At least minority guys can still play the minority card on occasion and women who deal with them can assuage their “white guilt” by doing things such as hiring them.

  44. Recognizing that the deck is stacked against you is not “whining”, and choosing not to play a rigged game is not “pathetic defeatism”. If a man wants to just play video games and watch porn so fucking what? If he instead wants to work on his career, so fucking what? If he wants to work some menial job, but have low cost-of-living and use his extra money to travel, or hire hookers, so fucking what?

    1. Great, then get to it, and stop hitting other red pill sites screaming at everybody else about being “pussy beggars! MGTOW or Die! Aaaahhhh!”
      Really, that’s all anybody is asking.

      1. There are plenty of MGTOW that agree with you 100%. But, as MGTOW is not a movement and has no leaders and no dogma then you will get the occasional nutter flying the flag.

      2. “so you improved your game and now you are able to get casual ONS’s ? LOOOL what a pussy beggar huehuehueheu”
        I never unterstood how these virgins use “pussy beggar” as an insult. If you have some good game, you are the exact opposite. You get pussy without begging, without being needy.

        1. Shit is practically falling out of the sky for free these days, shit, it’s the opposite of begging in every way, as you point out.

        2. “I never unterstood how these virgins”
          Tell me more about how your self-worth is based on women.

        3. You, sir, are in the 20% and also married. You are not truly in the game and have never experienced life as an 80%’er. I celebrate your successes without denigrating those not gifted with your advantages. I have been married 4 times and am currently married to a beautiful Asian woman 27+ years younger than me. I am far from a virgin. Yet I see no reason to stereotype all men who disagree with me as basement dwelling x-box using virgins.

        4. Something about blowing out someone else’s candle to make your’s look brighter.

        5. I’m not denigrating them as such. The Group A MGTOW I respect. The ones who sit around without any motivation or impulse to do anything in life, the Group B, I have no use for.
          I didn’t get into the 20% by accident of birth. It took work and I could just as easily decided to not improve my lot in life and sat around bitching about being born into the working class with “no chance”.

        6. “I have no use for.”
          They have no use for you either.

        7. I find no value in being of use to people who aspire to nothing in life, so that really doesn’t bother me in the least. Giving up and blaming the world types are not the kind that I choose to be around. That they wish to avoid me just makes it a happy accident of fate that works out in my favor.

        8. Cool; you dislike and “have no use” for people who also have “no use” for you and have a different value system in life than your own.

        9. I know, it is isn’t it?
          I don’t care if they have a different value system. I do care if they come on here and sneer at men trying to improve their lot in life. If they’ve found some mystical Zen “inner peace” then shouldn’t they be on about getting some more of that, and not going out trying to make others angry?
          Reminds me of the Crusading Atheists in way. Ok, you don’t believe in God, good for you, go away and stop screaming at every Christian you meet out of your own insecurities.
          And such.

        10. “I don’t care if they have a different value system.”
          But you do, ironically, otherwise you’d not have had an opinion.

        11. You are intentionally missing the point.
          Have any value system you want. But to spend the energy to come onto sites that advocate for an active life of self improvement and learning Game and sneering at people tells me that they really, really are insecure about their own life choices. That’s their problem and they really aren’t doing their cause any favors.

        12. As I said, the reason websites such as this even get any attention from MGTOWs is due to denigrating articles that are frequently posted.

        13. I guess my interaction with the MGTOW crowd has been different than yours. Most (by a wide margin) are in what you would call Group A. This is true even of the young members in their teens and early twenties. Most of the interaction I have seen on the MGTOW boards is trying to help other men either avoid the mistakes they have made or recover from making those mistakes. They are actively working to get guys past the anger stage of grieving for their lost illusions. Most don’t have anything to do with PUA boards (of which I do not count this as one, even though it was started by a PUA). A lot of them are firmly of live and let live and think of PUA as just one way that a man can GHOW.

        14. Never bought a Harley in my life, son.
          Besides, buying the bike is easy. Any goober can do that. Investing years in crafting fine leather items allowed me to make it unique and something ten steps above the rest of the crowd on bikes. So that, my friend, was the work part.

        15. I appreciate your response. I think most of the Group B are what some Group A refer to as “being in the angry phase”. I don’t know if that’s right or not, but it’s what I hear.

        16. Because it’s the work towards an artistic craft that made the bike, which is far less expensive than Harleys, yet gets 10 times more attention on any given day. I like showing off my skills and it doesn’t hurt that women seem to flock to it like ducks to a pond. Even without that though, I’d still do it, because that’s just what I enjoy doing.

        17. I was born into the working class too. I was the first in my very large family to get a four year degree in the old fashioned way, by going for four years just after high school graduation. Some of my sisters got married, had kids, then went back to school as they could and got their degrees. My first job was sweeping mopping floors. Now I am a consultant to the financial sector and have a PhD.
          All of this is slightly immaterial. The top 20% is the men that women naturally are attracted to. I firmly believe that is inherent in your makeup at birth. Some can be situational, but I look at a lot of very successful men who are shit with women. The rich CEO whose wife is screwing the pool boy is typical. Of my 4 sons 3 are very successful with women. The 4th is a smart handsome guy, and may just be holding his cards close to his vest. He hasn’t lived at home for years so what do I know? Only what he tells me.

        18. My way to achieve this was I never bought a bike that was working when I bought it. I like working on mechanical devices. In my earlier years I was a mechanical engineer.

        19. That’s just fun on a stick isn’t it? The sense of pride and achievement from building a bike, or doing art, or whatever act of creation is fulfillment that comes from the act itself and nothing else. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy getting compliments on it and such, but the real deeper sense of happiness came from execution of the act of creation.

        20. Eh…that sounds like a lotta work…I think I’ll just stay locked up at the house eating Cheetos while sitting naked in my bean bag, playing Katamari Damashi, and masturbating furiously to tentacle porn. Afterwards, I’ll probably gripe on the internet for a few hours about how I can’t get any women to like me.

        21. “Group B” is just another way of saying “Those MGTOWs who are in the anger phase.”
          And there’s nothing wrong with the anger phase. Most people feel anger when they discover they’ve been lied to/misled all their lives.
          Injustice also tends to illicit angry feelings.

        22. Yup, and that angry phase can last a long time. The general attitude I see on the MGTOW boards is to try and help develop a positive attitude in those fresh from the meat grinder. If your wife divorce raped you, at least it is over and you no longer have to deal with the bitch. If your ex is parentally alienating you from your children, you are not alone, and some of the older guys can tell you that eventually the kids grow up and form their own opinions. There is a very good chance that they will see who is the villain and who tried to do the right thing. Do what you can and let the rest go. Get on with rebuilding your life.

        23. God man, I know a dude just like that. He’s constantly eating poorly and drinking booze, dresses like a fucking slob. I don’t think he’s MGTOW, but he sure does spend his time bitching about women. He’s (jokingly) told me “I hate you” whenever women fall all over themselves to be near me, and I’ve offered to be a life coach for him (known him for years, so it’s not some weird thing out of the blue) and he *constantly* refuses. Ok, whatever, but he will tell you until he’s blue in the face that he can’t find any women and that he has high standards (as in, high like mine) in the looks department. Dude is oblivious.

        24. Because men like to have sex with women. Part of being a mammal.

        25. At some point in your life you will realize that nothing is so over rated as bad sex, and nothing is so under rated as a good bowel movement. You have a few years to go to reach that point if you are around 40.
          I like sex fine, but I am not willing to do a whole lot to get it. Luckily I didn’t have to. People ask me how to meet cute young girls in the Philippines, I tell them all a man has to do is go there and take a deep breath. The girls do the rest.

        26. I’m the upper side of the 40’s. My T levels are still through the roof, from exercise and, I think, some genetic contributions to that as well. My grandfather was in his late 70’s and going to pound town with a main woman and two side dishes up until about a month before he died. Dude never touched a weight, but was a diesel mechanic.
          As I was saying, you’re right, you really don’t have to do a lot to get women these days. Be in decent shape, don’t be a whimpering pussy, have some self respect and confidence and they practically crawl over glass on their bellies to get your attention.

        27. And in college that is correct. Once you have had a lot of sex for a lot of years, and your testosterone poisoning starts to ebb, bad sex is just bad sex. It is like developing a palate for fine wine; you start out drinking Boone’s Farm (ask me how I know) and end up only drinking harvest reserve varietals.

        28. I tell people that I am in my very late 40s. I think I can get away with it for another 10 years.

        29. Yes, directly, in almost those exact words. I’ve even pointed out the very areas I’ll help him with – diet, exercise, impulse control, how to dress positively and how to Game (for lack of a better term). I can watch his ear flaps close over the holes in his head and see his eyes zone out as he says “Naw man, I’m fine”. Ok, then shut up about women, dude.

        30. Maybe you should hire a HB8 to come up to him, chat with him for a bit, then drop a bombshell on him:
          “I would love to go out with you. You seem like such a nice guy, but I only date men who take care of themselves. Go lift weights for 6 months and dress better and we’ll talk. Byyyyeeeeee!”

        31. He’d just call her a bitch. That’s what he calls every woman he “hits on” (well, that’s the closest thing I can come to call what he does) who walks away, which is to say, all of them. Then he’d launch into a rant about how she wasn’t good enough for him and, by god, he has higher standards and she was a cunt with issues and….so on.
          Dude is a good 50 pounds over weight, all in the belly (skinny legs and arms) and wears sweat shirts as “formal wear” out on the town. And not nice sweat shirts, the kind you’d wear if you’re at home on a rainy Sunday and sitting around bored at the house, sometimes with stains on them.

        32. Damn….just….damn. I would have no idea how to help someone like that.
          Maybe try a challenge? Something like (and I’m channeling my inner GOJ here), “Ok hoss, I’ll tell you what. For 6 months, workout every day, go out everywhere in business casual clothes or better, practice good hygiene, and learn some basic game principles. If you don’t see a marked improvement in how women treat you, then I’ll shut up. If you don’t take me up on this challenge, I never want to hear you bitch about another woman again. I don’t care if it’s your own mother. Slainte!”

        33. While of course all the criticism of this guy is spot on, I understand his point of view too. Thirst is so high today that you can be a disgusting pig of a female and still get more attention than most non-famous men will get their whole life. And then there is the phenomenon of the ugly busted dudes getting with cute girls. He sees all this and thinks “Why should I need to be in shape. Obviously the dating market doesn’t care about that.”
          The problem is there is no one outside the tiny but growing manosphere, who will tell you to focus on physical, mental, and spiritual health. That fatness is gross. That degeneracy is wrong. Yeah, it seems like common sense, even more so if you were raised in a good family, but there are a lot of broken homes out there, and our churches, school, and institutions are not filling in the gaps.

      3. Funny thing is, I don’t do that. You’ll rarely see me in the comment section of “other red pill sites”. So.

        1. So then you’re not part of the problem. We get plenty of “if you want sex with a woman you’re a pussy beggar!” types here and on other sites though. It baffles the mind. MGTOW is not monolithic, many here have made distinctions that are meaningful (Group A, and Group B).

        2. When you post articles denigrating MGTOW, you really can’t be surprised when (your artificial binary) Group A or Group B people show up to throw some mud at you. -shrug-

        3. I didn’t post this article. And they show up across various articles, not just this one. -counter shrug-

        4. When you post articles denigrating MGTOW
          Then be more clear in your language next time.

        5. Don’t blame me for your misunderstanding of casual English.

        6. Yeah, I’m terrible at language and linguistics. It’s one of my major weaknesses. Dang.

        7. So basically you enjoy trolling others.
          That’s some neat inner peace you have going on there, Skippy.

        8. Just noting that all you’re doing is trolling. And with that, I withdraw my response IV from your arm and will allow you the mercy of slow starvation.

        9. “Sarcasm and insults didn’t work, I’ll accuse him of trolling. That will make his points magically vanish, and everything will be okay. I gotta hold frame!”

        10. Can we cut this off? It is getting tedious. Both of your points have been made. You are now at the point where neither of you is listening or care about the opinion of the other.

        11. I already cut him off, it was getting tedious.

        12. “Gotta keep holding this frame, bro. I didn’t stop responding because he backed me into a corner, I stopped responding cuz he’s a ‘troll’ and I’m in charge here! That’s my frame and I’m sticking to it.”

        13. But watching him play his “frame games” without making any actual point is inordinately amusing for me.

        1. My reference roll-0-dex must be getting too full, I cannot for the life of me recall what AnnaToe pic means, even though I’m certain I may have had a hand in it, heh.

  45. Even if you are a MGTOW, it is worth being attractive to women, physically, and by having an attractive lifestyle.
    There is a certain power in being attractive to women, and it will give your MGTOW lifestyle an added edge. It also gives you added motivation to stay physically fit and to achieve your personal goals.
    MGTOWs are often people with a strong sense of having being wronged by women. Many of them will be quite attractive but the process of chasing women and interacting with them is not very rewarding for them. However, the danger of MGTOW is that they will have boxed themselves into a hole and a dead end and then as they age, they will find it difficult to escape from.
    When your life is not going forward, there is a feeling of depression and listlessness that overcomes you. The more you try to avoid it by playing computer games and locking yourself in, the worse it becomes. It is very important to drag yourself out of that place by activity of all kinds, be it travel, physical fitness, work, hobbies or learning. It is a lonely journey but so is life for everyone.

    1. I have already aged. I have a full and happy life (not void of sex and companionship) but have detached myself from any contact with American/Western women. I learned the pointlessness of that pursuit long, long ago. I hope you achieve happiness on your path as I have on mine.
      P.S. I only briefly played any kind of computer games. I saw it as a pointless waste of my time and moved on. This was in the early 1990s. stop assuming that all the pro MGTOW people are sitting in basements playing video games. What are you a closet feminist?

      1. “stop assuming that all the pro MGTOW people are sitting in basements playing video games.”
        Thank you. These pinpoint definitions of MGTOWS get on my nerves too.
        MGTOW is self-determination. Establishing your own imperatives and going after them. Since society’s imperatives for males no longer have any incentive at all, outside of avoiding shame which isn’t a true incentive. Most people would have to agree, I think. That leaves the entire scope of human endeavor to act in. Yet they whittle it down to video games. Frankly, it’s weird.

    2. There’s nowhere to “go”, there’s nothing to “be”, there’s nothing to “do”.
      Happiness comes from inside. The secret is found in a still mind and focusing your attention on the sensation of breathing.

      1. Happiness comes from processing your reactions to events in the world. You have a hand in making those events positive, or negative. There is no mystical “happy place” that resides as an independent agent apart from the objective outside world. Some things you do, make you happy, some things you do (or experience) do not.
        Going nowhere, being nothing and doing nothing is another word for ‘death’.

        1. “Happiness comes from processing your reactions to events in the world.”
          No, your happiness is not dependent on external factors. This is the delusion.
          “You have a hand in making those events positive, or negative.”
          There is no inherent positive or negative.
          “There is no mystical “happy place” that resides as an independent agent apart from the objective outside world.”
          Just because you haven’t found peace doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
          “Going nowhere, being nothing and doing nothing is another word for ‘death’.”
          No, because when you’re dead you don’t exist to go nowhere or do nothing…

        2. Save the Zen Buddist crap for somebody else, pal. When my baby son laid his head on my chest and napped on me in the summer time on a hammock, that brought me happiness. External event.
          “No inherent positive or negative” – oh boy, here we go, the philosophy that gave birth to faggot “rights” and men being able to go into bathrooms with women.
          Thanks, but I’ll pass on that one, Scooter.
          “Going nowhere, being nothing and doing nothing is another word for ‘death’.”
          No, because when you’re dead you don’t exist to go nowhere or do nothing…
          Which is the state you’re advocating for, hence, your position basically wants to see me act dead. No thanks.
          Just because you haven’t found peace doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
          Who says I haven’t? Contentment comes from many things, different to each man, but all from pursuing some type of value, code or simply achieving a goal. If sitting around mumbling and breathing does it for you, great. But it’s not the only way.

        3. Two things;
          1) Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it.
          2) Happiness is does not come from getting what you want. This is a female mistake. Happiness comes from being content with what you have.
          Not chasing pussy, or working to make yourself attractive to parasites that only want to use you like an appliance, does not mean doing nothing and being nothing. What if your source of happiness is sailing, or motorcycling, or sky diving? No need for a woman to approve of those activities or your hobbies and interests.

        4. I don’t disagree with point 1.
          Point 2 is a bit pedantic. Of course you get happiness from getting what you want and (I’ll add) the path and plans you used to get to that point. If you’ve executed a long series of milestones on a long plan towards achieving a great goal, the journey to the goal and the goal attainment itself will grant you some measure of happiness, else you wouldn’t do it.
          Contentment is another story, I agree with you that contentment beats happiness as a long term pursuit.
          As to “parasites”, sorry dude, the urge to reproduce is built into our DNA. You shouldn’t live your life for women, clearly, but wanting to get laid is not some sinful “giving in to parasites” or whatever. It’s hard coded genetically into every healthy sexual species.

        5. I remember that urge to reproduce. I indulged in it to excess. The palace of wisdom comes at the end of the path of excess.
          BTW most sex has nothing to do with reproduction, but I found most women intent on reproduction can be a lot of fun while you are working on it.

        6. If my family is any indication, the end of that path arrives just before death. My uncles are both still out and about as well. I strongly suspect there’s a genetic component at play here. I like it, doesn’t bother me in the least, and it’s fun. Besides, I still have my hobbies and interests outside of that pursuit that occupy plenty of time. I like being well rounded in my life with whatever tools I have at my disposal.

        7. I reached the point where I finally can remain faithful in marriage without too much struggle (note this is not the same as no struggle.)

        8. Far from the only way, friend. It’s one of those things that the man without the experience or appreciation for the experience can ever seem to grasp.

    3. Why should I put in any effort to be attractive to human scum that hate and revile me for being a white man? They have declared me as their enemy. I chose to ignore this and walk away. Why fight to improve or correct their toxic viewpoints. Let them learn the lessons that time will teach them. I am no longer involved. My new favorite expression of this is, “Not my circus, not my monkeys.”

      1. Still dude, I would suggest lift weights, and wash regularly. I have very negative opinions about society, but I do those two things.

  46. And the award for the clunkiest use of the English language
    goes to…. “for whom this article is directed to”. Try ‘ to whom this
    article is directed’.

  47. “Normally, when a man goes his own way, he doesn’t feel the need to advertise it to the world. (I know because individuals close to me have done just that without feeling the need to identify themselves as “Going His Own Way”). He just goes about doing what gives meaning to his life without concern for other people.”
    This is the best part of the article. Men with proper self-esteem don’t seek validation from others, they are internally validated. When one is validated internally, other people’s opinions on ones choices might be of interest, but are seldom cause for alteration in ones course.

  48. Well, I’ll just say that I credit MGTOW for helping me stumble into the manosphere at a time when I needed the red pill more than anything else.
    All the stages of grief group B are caught in are unhealthy until they reach acceptance and can move on. Most of the guys stuck in group B will eventually be fine. Moving on to better things just has to be their idea. Shaming and dehumanizing them won’t help them.
    Neomasculinty of ROK and MGTOW both hold a special place in my heart.

  49. Not that I disagree with everything you wrote, but you should chech out some of the stuff coming from your benefactor Roosh, before calling out Mgtow. On one hand, dude is selling false hope by peddling a bankrupt ideaology(neo-masculinity) that has no chance of success in this environment. While on the other hand, in an article on his namesake website, he suggests that the brave thing to do might be to kill onesself, when facing the uncertainty of the meaning of life.
    And mgtow is lost?

    1. I’d rather not be miserable. It’s not a healthy way to live. The point of MGTOW is to focus on self improvement not wallow in misery.

  50. Men going their own way, but then joining a group with lots of other people of the same group, and then giving it a label, contradicts them selves. Why cant they just do their own thing and not have to tell everyone about it?

    1. I’ve been living my life for 42 years and then the last couple of years I’ve been seeing dudes give it a label and call it a “movement”. WTF? You’re right…These dudes should just “go their own way” and live by example instead of trying to codify a dogmatic “filosuhfee.”

  51. In my opinion MGTOW is basically men who have taken the crimson pill, they aren’t quite there yet.

  52. Every time I see someone living in the deplorable conditions that Hikikmori and these welfare queens live in some part of me wants to take a whip go in there and beat them until they clear that discussing pig sty up. Some people just need a task master over them and are unworthy of “freedom”.

  53. My brother is doing something like this. Recently divorced, he decided to live in a cabin on five acres. No phone, no power, filtered water from the creek, outhouse. Only bills is food and transportation. Oh yeah, the other 90% of the money goes to the ex and kids.

  54. At first I thought, “Really? Tell men who have decided to not listen to the gynocentric mainstream society how to behave? This is idioti……. Wait a second. Ah I see.. Clever, clever..” I realized you are just playing up to your reader base. “See readerbase! This could be you if you don’t continue to remain with ROK! Please be sure to buy our swag!”
    Well thats a-ok, continue to worship at the slightly oyster scented altar. Its your path, have at it. Over at MGTOW we spend more time making sure the young ones are fully aware of the gynocentric society arrayed against them, talking down the raging men who have lost everything due to divorce and generally just talking shit-lord and comparing scars.
    I will have to say that at least the publisher of the MGTOW website wasn’t chased through the streets of Montreal by a mob of women wanting to tear him apart. (and not in the good way.) 🙂 Go your own way.

    1. Poor trolling attempt, but I’ll bite.
      By reading what you’ve written you either haven’t read the article or living in your own bubble. But don’t worry, I won’t bother telling you what to do. You can do whatever you want; it’s your life. Bitch and complain to your satisfaction in your own corner, but don’t come here and make childish accusations that we’re “pussy worshiping” or “shaming.” Men who have really gone their own way wouldn’t even care what other men are doing, but the fact that you’re here trolling suggests insecurity.
      You’re obviously not the target audience for this article, so it shouldn’t concern you at all. I’ve written this article to convince men who might be disillusioned with being a MGTOW or on the fence about it to let them know that there are other options in life. Judging by the number of commentators claiming to be ex-MGTOW, I suspect I could convince more men who don’t want to live a perpetual life of complacency and withdrawal to do better for themselves. You might not be interested in this article, but they are.

      1. If you were talking about the original you wrote, I agree, a poor trolling attempt.
        Thank you for not telling us what to do… Oh wait, you did. If you adhere to the ROK lifestyle of getting game for pick up artistry. Then your life revolves around women. More power to you.
        I’m here because I wanted to see what the hubb-bub was over on MGTOW with 12 pages of people laughing their asses off at your article. So I put a minnow on the hook and threw it in the pool. Any ex-mgtow are still deciding on what path to take on their own, which in essence is mgtow.
        You could be called mgtow as well. You chose your path and are walking it. You may be still on the gynocentric road up to your eyes in it but you made a choice and are walking it. Respect for that.
        You should have more respect for other paths men may walk.

        1. I said you could do whatever you want and that this article is not for you, but you continue whine here. Banned.

  55. “men absolutely hate seeing weakness in other men”
    It’s all I can do from punching my coworkers in their punchable faces.
    I should start laughing at their ridiculous statements about politics and whatnot: one actual thought Trump would launch all our nukes! We can’t even find the launch keys! Never mind if the silos are actually functional.
    I have a classical low, evil laugh, might I add.

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