Nathan Thompson has written an article for Vice Magazine called ‘Confessions Of An Ex-Pickup Artist‘ (July 28th 2014) where he describes attending a pickup “bootcamp” run by Gambler (Richard La Ruina) of PUA Training. While he concedes that pickup can yield positives such a confidence boost for those who are shy or socially-inept, and that a direct opener on cold approach actually won him a girlfriend, much of the piece denigrates the practice of pickup and draws into question many of its techniques and “psychological tricks.” Predictably, the article has generated a storm of social media comments both from feminists and manboobs who are naturally opposed to the notion of pickup, but also from members of the Roosh V Forum, who might—in theory at least—be more sympathetic to it.
Thomson reads The Game by Neil Strauss (a way in for many of us) before attending the bootcamp. His fellow students are “professional, normal-looking guys,” (i.e. not the creeps and weirdos that many of the commentators imagine). They are taught how to “set break”—infiltrate a group and began a conversation—and the “three second rule”—that is, to take action within three seconds of seeing an attractive female. They go to popular pickup hangout Tiger Tiger in in Piccadilly Circus to practice. Thomson notes that:
I felt liberated, as if I had been given permission to follow my instinct a bit more and approach the women I liked. I returned with two numbers (one of which wasn’t fake).
The class then tries some street approaches. Thomson states:
The PUA practice of approaching women in the street is sometimes confused with harassment. In my experience, most PUAs place great emphasis on politeness and consideration when making a cold approach—after all, they are trying to get laid so being aggressive wouldn’t be helpful. We were taught that if a woman is not interested we should always smile and be polite, even if she is rude—especially if she is rude because this trains us to be non-reactive.
But it turns out that the girls around “Pester Square” (Leicester Square) have been over-gamed. “God! You’re the third creepy guy who’s come up to me today saying that you ‘like my energy.’ Fuck off!” one tells Thomson.
It is at this point that Thomson launches a curious rejection of pickup that jars with what has gone before:
In my experience, PUA tactics don’t work. They don’t produce Bond-esque rogues but grotesque social robots whose jabbering mouths spout programming written by borderline sociopaths. It’s insulting to a woman’s intelligence to think that a sartorial spruce up and reciting some lines will win her affection.
Odd that these grotesque social robots were previously described as normal, professional-looking guys. Does talking to a few girls really effect such a fundamental personality change? Odd that ‘PUA tactics’ don’t work, given that the author has just obtained an attractive girl’s phone number through them.
Thomson goes on to say:
While self-styled “Pickup Gurus” like Strauss seem to have created one slick personality, the majority of PUAs appear hopelessly inauthentic. Bona fide seducers like Russell Brand are a rare breed whereas PUAs are like hoverflies; they wear the wasp’s colours but have no sting.
This I think we can all agree with. Doubtless, there are many less-than proficient dweebs out gaming in London, New York and L.A. right now. But such newbies may well improve and get better over time. Should we deny them the chance? Russell Brand himself reports being very shy as a boy. And anyway, there are plenty of bad golfers out there: no one questions the soundness of the practice of golf itself as a result.
Thomson then brings the ethics of game into question:
Add to that the fact their techniques are unethical. Manipulating people for your own selfish ends is enshrined in PUA culture—a “pivot” is a girl you use to raise your social status, “AMOGing” is a technique used to bully rivals away from girls you like and “boyfriend destroyers” are designed to lay a girl already in a relationship.
I would disagree that having an attractive female friend with you is unethical and I’m on the fence about AMOG-ing. Whether or not you attempt to lay a girl in a relationship is up to the individual. Personally I’d steer away from it. But it’s worth pointing out that here Thomson is attempting to apply an ethical standard to a milieu that is itself without ethics, driven as it is by biomechanics. Believe me, the girls of Tiger Tiger do not often display a high degree of ethical integrity either.
Thomson then touches on themes familiar to those who read manosphere sites like this one:
PUAs [have] a muddled appeal to evolutionary psychology, particularly the idea of “alpha” and “beta” males. Beta males are men who want to be with one woman and alphas are those with access to many. So the gold standard of success in the PUA community is the “MLTR” or “Multiple Long Term Relationship,” where a PUA has sexual relationships with multiple women at the same time.
Things get darker when you get to “relationship game.” Based on more evolutionary psychology, some PUAs believe that all women are subconsciously trying to entrap them in long-term relationships, a process they call “betaisation.” Tactics to avoid betaisation involve refusing intimacy (which basically means you can only do “hard fucking” only) and freezing-out partners while you focus on seducing other women (called “nexting”). This is the sad heart of the culture—where insecure men form relationships with women, who allow themselves to be mistreated.
This takes the discussion into a whole other area which Thomson does not develop in his article (to be fair, he probably doesn’t have space to). Sure, this view of relationships is dark—but no-one said life was one long party. The value of men discussing these issues and passing on their experiences is that it enables them to make more informed decisions. No-one is forcing anyone to ‘next’ a girl they really like, or to mistreat anyone. Armed with greater clarity, each man must make his own choices on how to proceed.
Thomson finishes up more positively:
For me, it wasn’t all bad. I still get mileage from a tactic known as “the direct approach.” The verbal formula goes something like this: “Hi excuse me, I don’t usually do this but I think you are really hot and I would be kicking myself if I didn’t come up and introduce myself.” In fact, I met my last girlfriend this way. But I’m sure it had little to do with the words and more to do with the authenticity that comes with maturity and the fact she digs writers.
Fine—but authenticity, or being your best self, and concentrating on developing your passions (writing, in Thomson’s case) is what most modern pickup resources teach men to do. It seems disingenuous—and somewhat ungrateful—for Thomson to write a click-bait article denigrating a practice that not only worked, but actually got him a girlfriend.
Pick-up – or meeting women from cold-approach – is a form of behavior guaranteed to get a lot of people’s backs up. For feminists and those men who seek to appease them, there is something “creepy” or even “rapey” about the idea of systematically approaching women in large numbers with the express intention of having sex with them. As one male commentator on the Vice story eloquently put it: “Rapey cunts.” But this is disingenuous for the simple reason that any man hating on pickup artists would, in common with them, also like to have sex with a high number of young attractive women, but lacks the inclination to put in the necessary work or face the inevitable high-level of rejection involved. Similarly, I suspect that most girls who criticise pickup would love it if a guy to her taste walked up and told her he would love to meet her on the morning commute, but only if it ‘just happened.’
It is the systematic aspect of pickup that sets people’s teeth on edge. Of course, as any player will attest, it very rarely “just happens.” As women are for the most part the gatekeepers of sex, men without fame or exceptional good looks who wish to sleep with a lot of them must mass approach in order to sharpen their charisma and technique, and in order to find those few who are most receptive to their approach. Women, who seek to optimise their hypergamy by screening for the highest quality males, are naturally suspicious of any method that seeks to short circuit what they believe should be the natural way of things. That is, that men should audition passively like puppies at a dog show, with the women in control as judges bestowing ribbons only on those they find most appealing.
Many people of both sexes also have an issue with men having to pay to get good with women. One male commentator on the Vice story recounts how a “geek” he used to know paid over $1000 for pick-up training. Actually, bootcamp fees of over $3000 are not unusual these days. I have never met Richard la Ruina, nor have I taken one of his courses, so I can’t comment on his company’s services. I have however seen a few of his videos, which seem to offer value, and I have it on good authority from a friend that he is solid. But this is somewhat beside the point. The accepted narrative socially is that men should just get it. Anyone who has to pay to learn to get good with women is a geek, a weirdo, a creep, and probably a rapist as well. But this is patently ridiculous. If you want to get good at coding, you go and take a coding course. Women, who don’t have to approach or initiate relationships, and who also don’t have to deal with the vacillations and evasions of their own gender, will never fully understand the difficulties the average man has in successfully attracting them and dealing with them. All men are aware of this on some level, but those who seek to protect their own egos and “good with women” self-image, or those who are simply naturals will also hate on pickup courses to appease girls and to try to fit in with the the predominant PC culture.
There was suspicion too on the Roosh V forum this week, where users are clearly more naturally inclined towards game. This largely centered on the use of the term “PUA,” which some considered outdated. “Deluge” stated:
I’m surprised these Mystery Method era “PUA” coaches still exist. If my only exposure to game was through one of these guys, I’d hate on it too.
My personal feeling is that there is undue suspicion from the manosphere on more commercial game organizations, and that basically we are all on the same side. I’m not personally aware of any company in 2014 that advocates negging, wearing eyeliner and feather boas and doing card tricks to pull girls. The message across the board is about understanding female psychology and becoming the best man you can be. Watch some of Tyler from RSD’s recent videos and you’ll see that they are extremely red pill in nature, and all advocate self-development. For me, the manosphere diagnoses the problem and game provides the solution (or the best available solution, anyway). Whether or not you choose to drop a load of cash on a bootcamp is up to you, but bear in mind that personal tuition has helped many thousands of guys get over their insecurities and get better with women. Rather than in-fighting, I think men should be glad that we have access to so many diverse resources today, commercial or otherwise.
Want to learn more about game and how to attract beautiful women for the fraction of the price of a bootcamp? Then click here.
Read more: Six Tips For Getting Laid in London
Vice can go fuck itself, there’s occasionally something funny or interesting on there but so much of it is hipster dross
That’s true. I’d much rather go change the batteries in all the smoke detectors than read Vice any more.
There a lot of guys that learn something from ROK and game in general. The criticisms this guy makes are pretty valid, but they don’t apply to everyone. I do think it is possible to become a ‘creepy robot’ with this stuff if you follow it too literally.
That is the problem some guys have though, they just don’t know how to behave around women and they think if they just read the manual they can figure it out. There is a bit more to it than that, especially if you aren’t innately charming or are just really inexperienced.
It is pretty funny, though. The guy goes to camp, he picks up a gf and now he’s bashing it? Blue pill anyone? How long do think it will be before she tells him to beat it?
That’s what I was thinking – it worked and he is bashing it. Makes zero sense, unless he is click-baiting.
His fragile ego demands that he “won” his whore because he is a unique, special snowflake with great inherent qualities she recognized, and became uniquely enthralled with. It just happened
Not because she’s a whore that would just as quickly have sucked off anyone else; who either paid her a grand directly, or paid someone else a grand to teach him a few lines to spout in her ear at whatever meat market she happened to be found skimpily dressed in, that particular night.
Just like half the guys running around LA in fur back in Mystery’s days, didn’t do it because Mystery said it helped them get laid; but because, you know, they always had an edgy sense of fashion and shits….And, like, I guess, you know, women like that (meaning, like me..) and stuff….. Because I’m, like, you know, me…
Would kinda make sense if after he learned game and started seeing shit how it really is, he was just trying to make a quick buck from a click bait article about a hot button issue that would rile up the female hordes of the internet. I wonder if Nathan Thompson is even his real name.
“cold approaching” isn’t a PUA technique. Throughout most of American history the way men and women traditionally met was that the woman would mark herself as available (for example, by going to a dance unattended) and the men were supposed to recognize that and approach.
He’s beta-backsliding – a process where even any marginal success leads to a complacency and return to your initial baseline level of game
Can’t we all just suck the king’s dick?
Do you guys ever think we should cut back on writing so many articles about other articles, and I don’t know, just focus on writing articles that give insightful ways to improve ourselves in becoming better men?
I mean, honestly, who cares about what one guy wrote for another site about whatever manosphere topic mainstream media wants to bash today. It doesn’t really improve you as a person to have read this article.
Strive for constant improvement.
I thought this article was insightful and about self-improvement. It is, in part, evaluating whether these paid PUA courses actually work.
I’ve done PUA boot camps and they were almost completely useless. The only one I had any success with a smaller one run by a local group, and then the main thing it did was break me out of my shell.
What actually helped my game was getting some more specialized help like a style consultation, speech therapy, etc.
I’ve never done a boot camp (other than real boot camp) but I can appreciate the reality of having them.
It produces red pill men. That’s valuable, even if they’re hedonistic heathen, it only furthers my extreme religious agenda.
I have benefited directly from this “Game” stuff. I have gained further control over my affections. I used to be a sucker for anything in lipstick and a dress. Now I’ve learned a healthy sense of due misogyny. I still love my women, but women not from my family no longer have any sway over me. Porn used to be enticing, now it is a degenerate disgusting freak show to me (although I am still as ever a high-T male). The adulteress and the whore used to be enticing to me, now I clearly see that her house leads down to death, she’s a road to the grave (Proverbs 2). I can clearly identify women and categorize their threat levels, as well as my own temptations.
Although all these things can be learned if you’re more serious about believing what the Bible says, having experienced it first hand or vicariously through you dumb asses is a blessing to me.
Well said man, well said. Being able to see woman for what she is, will save you all kinds of trouble.
When I was in the PUA thing back in the day I never paid a penny. I went to thelss.com which is a forum board for londoners. Its free, ethical and guys will help you out.
Why did you go to speech therapy, if you don’t mind my asking?
pls be in london
why
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Why don’t you just shut the fuck up and then suck a dirty smelly dick?
Every girlfriend I have ever told about game was supportive.
They were supportive because their experience was that of a high-value man coming up to them and creating one of the best experiences they will ever have. If I had told them before they would have disagreed.
People hate on game because they misunderstand it.
I care. People have been writing about what other people have written for centuries. In some industries they call it critical review. I struggle to find any issue with it.
Remember It’s not okay to slut shame (unless the slut happens to be a dude)
Right, so wearing makeup and pushup bras and the latest fashions isn’t manipulation at all. Nope. Look, both genders engage in a bit of false display, it is the game the way that nature intended it.
Agree….but you have to remember….we’re dealing with hypocrites (women).
You’re giving them too much credit by calling them “women”.
The majority of the ladies you’ll find in the club scene nowadays are little more than spoiled little girls in an adult’s body.
You don’t spoil a little girl by turning her out into a prostitute.
Even bona fide pimps don’t do that to their own daughters. Just those of others, who are less capable and/or willing to do any spoiling.
The trash wallowing around pickup clubs, are simply drones given away by their own parents, to work as expendable foot soldiers for the progressive leeching classes in their battle for their right to leech.
You can never teach a man who in their entire lives(depends on age,maturity and environment) has been self loathing to stop. Its their nature. Even if they learn game, agree with you politically, religiously and socially they see themselves as marked by blood. Impure and unable to enter the holy temple. As such they endeavour to destroy themselves at all costs as their means of salvation.
More likely they try to screw over the people who are taking the hard road of self improvement. Out of envy and self hatred. Rationizarion hamster required.
So often we have to get to the point where we have had enough bullshit, and get angry enough, or have suffered enough humiliation before we are willing to see the light.
Unfortunately.
Vice isn’t going to allow a piece on it’s site that’s empathetic to men who strategically got with women. It contradicts ladies blissful belief that it was “chemistry” that made them pull their panties down for their man. In general, it’s a ginormous task for the average woman to have any empathy towards men whatsoever, like Norah Vincent for instance:
Most women aren’t going to go to such lengths to try to understand what it is to be a man (the author herself had to get therapy afterwords for like a year). So seeking out understanding, peace, compromise, perspective etc is a fool’s errand. Just be an alpha, f*ck, dominate and remember that the only reason you’re in that position is because you’re the man The moment you are not, the moment you get comfortable and think you’re on vacation and get comfortable in love, attraction, vows etc, it’s only a matter of time before you get your “Et tu, Brute” moment.
Great comment. Take heed.
I just watched the video. Pretty interesting stuff. Woulda been interesting if she actually dated one of those women and articulated what women are actually attracted to.
There is no such thing as “chemistry”. The phrase an awkward attempt to describe what attraction feels like to them.
We have to be soooo sensitive to these poor innocent girls who may be the victim of pick up!!!! Women choose sex partners like chimpanzees: they give their youth and innocence to high status males who afford them nothing, and they brag about it. Then they seek a beta shlub when they turn 36 and notice in the mirror that they are aging.
It is astonishing how every potential imaginary disappointment of a partying ding dong slut is highlighted and magnified. The deep and crippling suffering they inflict on their male victims in divorce is never mentioned; instead society and the law pile on to crush any man who seeks to act in an un-chimpanzee civilized way.
Women. Ruin. Everything.
Not just little league.
Civilization itself.
Here’s a new saying:
A woman’s value is equal to that of the lowest value man she’s ever had sex with.
No.
A woman’s value is equal to the highest value man she can get to commit to her long-term (2+ years). This decreases with age, exponentially past 30.
Put those together though.
If a woman gets a reputation as a slut, comes off as trashy, is a single mom, etc the quality of partner that she can get to commit to her long term takes a steep dive.
Keep in mind that the kind of man these women want to settle down with usually have both the resources and the inclination to go looking for women outside the mainstream. They can easily either go overseas or find themselves a virginal small town girl.
go on, make a real equation, ….a womans worth =
A woman’s value = X. X has a variable value of whatever I decide to assign to it.
PUA is no different to training that salesmen get….
Of course that training can be used to make unscrupulous sales, sell crap products or the wrong products to the wrong people… it can even be used to engage in outright frauds, grifting and long cons….
What you do with the information is up to the individual… the information is as old as civilization itself….
Excellent little summary, Ray.
Yeah, it’s funny how “unethical” behavior was described. It’s basically the way women have played it socially for years.
That’s why it’s important to learn how to effectively utilize game. Even innocent virginal looking bitches eat it up. You gotta learn how to play the game if you want to succeed. Don’t be nice to women, it simply does not make them tingle. You have to let them know that you are a sexual being, then they respond and reciprocate. Or yell “RAPE!” lol
in a way, these articles have their value – that’s merely to see what sites not to read or what advice not to take – the author made some efforts to collect arguments against this douchebag so let’s strike applause and learn from this.
Conclusion : Take a good look and judge harshly before deciding if it’s valid.
I wanted to say that as Roosh explained is his books Bang and Day Bang, cold approaching women is not natural in human history. Especially cold approaching hot females knowing the inevitable result will more than likely be rejection is extremely unnatural even in cavemen times. Go for the wrong girl in those times and risk death and exile from the tribe.
There is also a grand hypocrisy that exists in the bluepill where a man is not supposed to go out and get what he wants, he is just supposed to be satisfied with what he has. Whether it’s a job or women or anything else, he can’t think of any other alternative, and if it makes you miserable, it’s because you’re an ungrateful misogynist. What kind of shitty attitude is that? Magically have a great life and you’ll be fine, or have a shitty life with no ways to turn it around. What a grand life that must be. Most men hate PUAs, businessmen and successful types because they are JEALOUS. Even if they aren’t always successful, they are mad that they don’t even have the balls to do what
they do. It’s time for our society’s men to grow a pair, it’ll go well with their mangina.
He doesn’t believe his own crap, gets a girlfriend doing direct approach pickup, claims he would have got her anyway without approaching due to his mature authenticity, perhaps through a series of rom-com coincidences of Fate
As I mentioned elsewhere, “Direct approach” isn’t a pickup technique. It’s the way guys have met women for most of Western civilization. Every other “dude” at the bar uses some variation of running up on girls with a random compliment or cheesy pickup line.
The real reason why PUA techniques don’t work much? It’s like anything else in life. If you have to actively analyze and think about what you’re doing then you’re doing it wrong. What most guys are doing is the equivalent of driving down the street while referencing that little DMV handbook to tell them how to react to the signage.
‘If you have to actively analyze and think about what you’re doing then you’re doing it wrong.’
Hmmm,not sure about that. So a concert pianist who analyses and thinks about what he is doing is doing it wrong?
Not all skill sets are instinctual, and even when they are, a little analysis can often improve them.
I’d agree with your point about direct approaching not being a ‘PUA technique’ though. This is what makes the Vice article, and people’s responses to it so absurd. All ‘PUAs’ are doing is what every other guy ever has done, just in a more refined, systematic way.
To me PUA is a combination between a number’s game and the ability to speak well enough. In other words it is a basic form of marketing.
Funny things is because of PUA I now have a job in a marketing division and what I do is mainly lead generation and follow-ups.
Often I have to get out and approach the firms directly which 2-3 years ago for me would have been nerve-wracking. I guess something good came out of asking girls what time it was and then trying to take their number.
Bad example to use, I know how to play.
A concert pianist doesn’t have to actively think about how to hit each cord he’s on. If he needs to hit a D major chord he doesn’t need to stop and check his notebook to see which keys he has to hit to make it. He knows reflexively, from muscle memory, what to do to hit that chord. He also doesn’t need to look up the meaning of any symbol on his music sheet.
Excellent, you’ll know what I’m referring to then when I say that the most common reason PUA fails is that the practitioner doesn’t understand the concept of value exchange.
The only way you can sell a product is if you both have value to offer and can convey that value to a lead. It’s the same way with women. If you’ve got no attributes that atract women then following a pre-defined script isn’t going to fix that problem. You need to develop value first(learn to dress, go to the gym, make some money, or gain some social prestige) before you’ll do well.
You are forgetting one thing – social skills. This is where PUA comes in handy because it makes you bullet-proof against rejection and makes you socially free.
You should never forget the other qualities because you need them too in order to increase your chances of success.
How does stacking openers and stories make one “socially free”? and “bullet-proof against rejection”? Like I said I’ve both been through that phrase and know people who do and rejection seems to be the same whether or not you’re using a PUA manual.
It definitely doesn’t make you “socially free”. I’d go so far as to say that anyone who is beholden to a “system” sold to them by others isn’t socially free. True social freedom comes only from increasing your personal power and learning to think for yourself.
I see it as a “knowledge share”. PUAs in this context are simply sharing combined knowledge about what works and what doesn’t. Not too dissimilar to what a man might do for his son or other younger man to help him understand women a little better.
I had a little protege like this a couple years ago but sadly he was immune to my advice (he would ask and then ignore me!). He was so terrible he would get dissed by the girls in strip clubs!
But does anyone really teach stacking openers and stories anymore? Not that I know of . . .
It makes you socially free because you can go up to anyone without feeling anxiety or remorse.
Bullet-proof against rejection means that you can keep on going even after you get shot-down.
OK, maybe not concert pianist, cos that denote proficiency, but pianist.
Once you’ve attained mastery, or something close, then sure, you have that muscle memory. But what about when you’re learning? I used to be able to play a bit, and practicing the technique helped me get better at it.
It isn’t “PUA” that does that. You’re talking about confidence and there’s many ways to achieve that.
If going to bootcamps and memorizing scripts worked for you then more power to you, but my experience and observations has been that the results are usually a miserable failure. None of that works unless you can project confidence.
It certainly applies to martial arts. When learning a student has to concentrate and focus on the intricacies of the skill. Given time and sufficient practice the student will perform the technique unconsciously. But it still helps even the master to stop and think about what he is doing from time to time.
Yes! This! You are not truly free from the shackles of judgment and validation, until you learn how to be completely comfortable with who you are as a man. Then you simply stop caring about people’s insignificant comments.You gotta be you, you can only fake it for so long. Know your worth and value as a man and offer something to the woman. (THE DEE)!
It’s the same reason why most “diets” fail. Diet and fitness experts tell you to simply reduce calories and all will be well. But that shit doesn’t work, now does it? They never tell you to reduce stress, cut out caffeine, alcohol and sugar and get more sleep. If you want to change one aspect of your life then you have to make big personal changes to yourself, your habits and they way you approach life.
That’s why it’s best if you learn this stuff, apply it and then internalize it. If you can’t sell it properly, then you won’t get rewarded.
I can’t believe how unappreciative this mangina dipshit is! This shows you really how deep their self loathing mindset goes.
His ‘Manchurian Candidate’ programming kicked in once he found his woman.
I thank feminists and manginas everyday. Because through them I have a compass on what to do in my life; just the exact oppoisite of what they want me to do.
Its funny, their opinion on no matter what is the complete opposite of mine. I wonder how an entire generation can grow up with such deluded ways.
They grow up that way because the feminist message is drilled into their heads, from the minute they’re old enough to understand it. They’re taught to be “nice” and “respectful” to women, and once they reach the age that they can begin to date, it doesn’t work. The best dating advice is to ask a woman or mangina their opinion, then do the EXACT opposite!
I honestly think it would be hilarious to raise a boy to be a real jerk to women, never open doors for them, and see what happens.
I think we can guess what.
Second photo from the bottom…. looks like he picked up an Indian guy with a wig on…(right side)
Yeah, the Indian tranny is truly a scary creature. India, home to the world’s ugliest ‘women’. Avoid.
Hey man, not all indian females look bad. I once knew this fine ass indian babe. But the bitch was highly insecure and crazy! So I hit and quit.
NAIWALT? There are unicorns in every bunch. I worked with an Indian guy who kept showing me websites with photos of Indian movie stars who looked good. I said, “Yeah, but what about the other billion ugly women who aren’t in the movies?”, and even he agreed most Indian women were ugly. I lived at one time in an area with a lot of ‘South Asian’ immigrants, and yes, almost all the women were really really ugly, but my next door neighbor was a hot one – who was a mistress to a married white guy, I guess he liked curry, go figure. She paid a young Indian guy from down the hall to pose as her “future husband” if relatives came to visit. LOL.
It looks like ‘Devansh’ still has a remaining reassignment surgery.
Yeah i spent 10 seconds staring at the chick on the right trying to figure out if it was a gentleman – whats up with these femasculine features?
“In my experience, PUA tactics don’t work.” THEY GOT YOU A GIRLFRIEND!!!
This dude got a girlfriend using game,
renounces said game,
will stop gaming his girlfriend while in relationship,
will be back with dick in hand no time…
Some guys just never learn……
Girls read magazine after magazine about boys, pop culture and make up ( how to look attractive) since the age of nine or ten. Talk about unfair advantage.
He had clearly made up his mind before having the experience..good luck changing the mind of a true believer.
PUA techniques are like cold calling and nobody likes being cold called no matter how polite and considerate it is. Plus it’s soul destroying on the person who does the calling.
You get used to it/Свикваш и не ти пука вече.
Хаха, като ебането в гъза, а? Само първият път боли и после свикваш. Не, благодаря!
Като българин не ти трябват тези американски простотии.
От много време не живея в България и се занимавам с продажби и търсене на клиенти в чужбина.
Дехуманизиращо е, но работи. Иначе предпочитам да го правя в дискотеките, но понякога се задявам на улицата само за кефа.
Ако живееш в малък град не го опитвай – ще има големи последствия.
В голямо село съм и аз – Лондон. Рибките сами скачат в тигана ми (винен бар).
В САЩ ли си?
И аз съм във Великобритания, но не съм в Лондон. В Лондон има всякакви и е сравнително лесно да си намериш някаква особено като барман.
Пу, те са много сноби на акцент, ти как се справяш с директен подход и с акцент?
В Лондон англичани почти няма.
Иначе мен много рядко ми правят проблем за акцента. В дискотека ако ме питат от къде съм си казвам без проблем и им казвам, че там няка красавици като нея и леко се усмихвам.
Виж, хората навсякъде са едни и същи. Всеки иска да му се обърне малко внимание и да му бъде направен денят специален. Всеки обича и да танцува. Говорите си малко с нея, базикаш, докосваш я като можеш и отивате да танцувате. След това е твоя.
Как да си намериш приятелка не ме питай, Една от причините да навлезна в PUA средата е, че много рядко съм имал кръг от приятели с готини жени, а и никога не съм има парите да живея живота, който аз искам.
Важното е като излизаш да се забавляваш и да излъчваш настроение. Задявай се с всеки и с всяка пък каквото стане. Ако пък толкова се снобеят ги подигравай малко.
Mate I have been doing this since I first grew a pair. There is no better way to get a girl in my view. And frankly, women love it.
The phrase “cold calling” is borrowed from sales for a reason and I recommend against it. Just like in sales you’ll have a better results if you are able to target your pitch to a receptive audience.
Instead of randomly approaching girls try this. Before running up on a girl, do some recon. If a girl looks like she’s bored, you’re the answer to her problem. If your wingman catches her checking you out or she maintains eye contact when you look at her then you know she’s already curious about what you have to offer.
Do that and you will never be shot down on approach.
Most guys who cold approach are aware of this and will look out for IOIs.
Having said that, I’ve had sex with girls I’ve approached who didn’t so much as glance at me before I walked up.
You never know what will happen when you flip over that stone.
I have as well, but in that instance I approached because I observed the woman in question and felt intuitively that she would be interested and I had to approach.
For me it’s case by case. Of course I’ll approach if I see an indicator of interest, but if she’s hot enough I’ll sometimes just approach anyway. After all, it doesn’t cost me anything and you never know what might happen.
Fair enough, and as a day trader I understand that concept: Sometimes you just have to make a measured gamble based on probabilities.
“Cold calling” has its place when you start focusing on a specific audience. You will get shot down. A LOT. However, you will get sales and customer satisfaction.
Same with girls. Approach 120 and you will get some positive responses.
Look up the 80/20 rule. On average, 20% of your efforts will get 80% of your results so that’s where you want to focus in order to save yourself time and hassle(and make more money in business).
The point is that you want to narrow your audience as much as possible. At first just approach women who are interested and then with enough experience you’ll begin to recognize your type and you will intuitively recognize them.
I know the Pareto principle and I cold approach only my target audience when I am on the job.
However, this is not what a newbie should be doing. I started out LITERALLY knocking on people’s doors on a 100% commission basis to ask for donations for various charities with direct debit. Here you have no target audience.
After a year I quit because I got the experience and connections to find a real job so I got into a call center but I didn’t like the randomness of it.
In marketing and lead generation you have to ask yourself two questions – “What am I selling ?” and “To whom ?”. I have never had a problem selling anything because I know my products inside-out and I know who I should target.
If I am selling loyalty systems for restaurants and bars I would target trendy bars and restaurant around the city center where people go to have fun and would find something like this quirky and fun (it is). I would never offer it to sports pubs (people go there to watch sports and bet) or to nightclub owners (nobody would use it – girls are the main entertainment there).
Fuck that, all you need is one of these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3JAtvsqfF8
That Vice article? Meh. It’s simply pandering to the feminine imperative.
Great article and really good points..
I struggle to see the problem in paying someone for a course in self-improvement. People pay for motivational speakers who in my view tell you very little. Why not pay for someone to teach you a difficult and practical skill?
I think it is because of social stigma. Nobody wants to admit that they are bad with the opposite gender and people in general (most guys and gals have shitty social skills). If you d admit it you are branded a “loser” and a “creep” because you aren’t “natural”.
I fail to see what is not natural about trying to improve the quality of your life.
Thanks mate. Agreed. It’s no different to learning any other skillset.
If Roosh published a video lecture series on women I’m sure he’d make bank and get famous for it… Sans pirating…
Cold calling, approach. Shit… Even if I am not expressly trying to make something further happen, I love doing this shit. I am naturally shy, so I gotta very spontaneously pull something out of myself and just go. Even the tiny victory of a 1 minute conversation stokes me for the next one.
It’s a good first step. Once you can make that initial approach and you’ve gotten over your fear I recommend putting some effort into recognizing which women are open to you. It gets easy after that.
I think the biggest test of anything you do in life is the end-result.
I had a lot of friends in a PUA lair that I met when moved to where I am now. How are they doing? The ones who have abandoned mystery/style/RSD type PUA are generally fairly well adjusted, happy, and succeeding in the game. Those who still follow it are frustrated, bitter, and depressing to be around.
I’ll admit that it’s good for breaking extremely shy guys out of their shell but the PUA analysis of social interactions only works marginally if at all. You’re better off focusing less on “knowing the game” and more on building up your inner game.
‘You’re better off focusing less on “knowing the game” and more on building up your inner game.’
But that’s precisely what many mainsteam game companies now advocate
…particularly RSD.
That wasn’t entirely the impression I got from them. I read some of their old materials, and I’ve got a friend who is currently into them and tells me what they’re teaching.
The impression I get is that they’re more like Amway, where they keep telling you that the only path to improvement and happiness is to keep buying their materials….and if it doesn’t work it’s NEVER because the system is flawed, it’s just because you aren’t buying enough of their materials and you’re doing it wrong.
That’s not the impression I get. They give away a ton of free content in videos online and only rarely do the hard sell. But look, I’m not here to defend any specific company – the wider point is I think people have a slightly outdated view of what ‘PUA’ is in 2014, and the type of material the bigger companies promote. My point is it’s more similar to manosphere material than many think.
To be honest I’m not particularly impressed by the majority of the “manosphere”. I get the impression that the majority of them are either selling something or are rationalizing and externalizing their own social failings.
The only manosphere teachers I’ve been impressed with so far are Dalrock(http://dalrock.wordpress.com/), a local guy who goes by the handle of “Cactus”(no internet presence)
and Player Supreme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7WrhU9FFyY&list=UUzjwdDQQesfD-fEzby2009Q)
Amen. Finally someone said.
It’s also telling that all so called natural alphas ended up married, fat and bored.
Gentlemen, you have to realise that by chasing the feminine you eventually turn into one.
Simple. A lot of those guys learned what most of the community calls “game”, meaning conversation and pickup techniques but they never matured emotionally enough to handle it.
My first mentor in the game actually was an Alpha(the real deal, not just claiming) and he’s demonstrated something to me…..despite being married now to a solid 10 and a model who is every bit as finicky as that type usually is, he’s still got her wrapped around his finger and is still an A-type personality. Other guys don’t put in the work to develop that and end up getting played by the first woman they can get.
The real threat from game has nothing to do with women and the screeching of feminists.
It’s the teaching for men not to be dweebs. Game, or the mechanics of it, can be applied to just about anything. We’re not supposed to be like that. We’re supposed to be exactly what every sitcom and commercial conditions us to be.
So you see, men charging other men money to be deprogrammed from years of indoctrination is bad for the system, because anything that’s bad for the system AND makes money for those who do it, must be stamped out. Otherwise it will grow. Experienced men who have something to share about game are supposed to remain in the shadows and just put articles on blogs and slave away at a day job and never actually profit from this.
There are many men that need these bootcamps and written lines because they are so far behind. While in school, they probably didn’t try to meet girls at bars and parties.
I didn’t know about game or pick-up when I was doing it, but every time I went out I had to at least break into one group of girls and hold a conversation. Doing that gave me experience in reading and responding to girls’ verbal and non-verbal reactions. When I eventually ran across this website, I viewed it as a tool to understanding the female mind (not a pick-up guide/community).
Not every guy eases into what I did. A lot of guys sit around until they reach their first job and then wonder why they can’t meet women. “I have a nice job, nice car, nice pad, but I still can’t attract women”. I feel as that is the person that is inclined (and needs to) take one of these boot camps.
I think this is a classic example of people wanting to hold on to their illusions. No woman wants to know how the sausage is made. When Tyler talks about making the transition to a more natural game, his argument is what are they going to warn the women about. Don’t date cool guys. Let the women enjoy their sausage and don’t try and convert men who don’t want to be converted.
It’s a problem to have a commercial enterprise devoted to PUA because it exposes the strategies to enemy eyes. It’s like a fully busted Enigma Code.
Who the hell’s kidding who here. Where is the “dishonesty” discussion over push-up bra’s, or make-up, or body-suits, or even plastic surgery fercrissakes. Whatever you think you’re meeting when you go out is ANYTHING BUT what that woman actually is.
As for the “ethics” of using pre-packaged approaches or MLTR’s, would anyone make the same argument with a woman who has a different man buying her lunch and dinner every day? Or a woman who brings an ID and cab fare to the bar because she’s counting on her ass to get her free drinks all night?
When women are honest and smart enough to not take an interest in a guy who says straight out, “I WILL NOT TREAT YOU WELL” then PUA’s will cease to exist.
In short, WHEN WOMEN STOP BUYING, WE’LL STOP SELLING.
Red pill is a state of mind. I think we have established that. The other fact is if you want to mass market the rid pill concept you have to be a little pragmatic. Not everyone can leave the United states at age 25 , move to Ukraine and bang girls for a living.
The taste of the red pill has to be made more palpable for more men to come on our side and by God do we need more men at this stage.
Just by being aware, NOT getting married(no matter what) until age 33(and until age 200 to an entitled brat), working out, saying what you feel, trying to be entrepreneurial and technically skilled and living a spartan life(no excesses – just basics), and having an overall vision of how things flow one is already ahead of 99% of the jokers out there.
On a side not by technical skills I dont mean Javascript coding. Top golf players are very technical, top snooker stars are technical, top actors (Daniel Day Lewis) are very very technical in their method, top carpenters, top plumbers, you name it are technical.
Also one more piece of advice I have come to realise on this journey. Respect your parents. No matter what. They are the ONLY ones who gave you advice sans an agenda.
Respect that. Be true to your word. Be tough – mentally and physically and see where life takes you. Enjoy the ride.Its all an illusion anyway. Peace.
I read his (Nathan) article the other day. It did feel a little sketchy.
It appears that as soon as he (Nathan) got a gf he stopped gaming. FUCK, how many times have we done that?
If guys like him would just understand that – failure – tears you down (hard sometimes) but that if you come back from it, it will make you better, not just with women, but throughout the spectrum of your life.
Cool post Troy. -d
He strikes me as a man (I use the term loosely) who does not have the wisdom to see a journey to its end, and can’t see the forest for the trees.
The problem with anything is that if you are biased from the get go, which I suspect he was, that it presupposes failure.
In the end, he’s ended up shortchanging himself. Good for him that he’s got a woman now, but ultimately, he’s missing the value of game and why he needs it, even in an LTR.
Don’t even get me started about the self-improvement aspects of it.
“I’m not personally aware of any company in 2014 that advocates negging, wearing eyeliner and feather boas and doing card tricks to pull girls. The message across the board is about understanding female psychology and becoming the best man you can be.”
You haven,’t heard of Vince Kelvin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wluxcBeAOCw&list=UUMEHRVGA-Pgtam7plRXrC7w
I’ve watched almost zero TV for the last 7-plus years, but I plugged in a DVD of Mad Men a few months back while on holiday, and although Hollywood-ized and smeared in some feminist BS and over-the-top womanizing to a certain extent, is that not the world that we yearn for? Is the main character (Don / Dick) not the natural Alpha with hints of the dark triad that’s super compelling to women? Does PUA-ism not simply try to emulate much of what he and his boss (Roger) do? These portrayed characters are career driven, financially successful, confident, stylish and even in good shape. Of course the writers / producers have to laden them with alcoholism, depression and show them devastating the lives of women and children all around them, to try and counterbalance them and even make them out to be the “bad guys”, but instead of investing $$$ in PUA boot camps, me thinks that the average beta-boy could greatly benefit from watching the Mad Men series for cents on the dollar — just take it easy on the booze! The style and grooming tips, alone, are gold.
So dude bangs lots of girls… then denigrates men who also bang lots of girls….
Sounds like hes trying to the whittle down the competition by dissuading other men from pick up…. and it is working.
What I don’t like about today is that pussies like him have a voice to try and convince people against nature. The problem, if there is one is not pickup. Pickup only exploits the laws of nature that were in play before we were born and will be here after we die.
But ppl like him always make it seem like it’s a problem that modern man has found a way to conquer one of the major areas of life that will either bring great pleasure or pain to a man: women. Don’t get mad at the men and women who are willingly and happily playing this great game our ours. Blame nature.
This site had some good articles but it’s declining pretty hard lately, becoming a shitty kkk site like vanguard news network
Uh-huh. Sure it is. Sure.
Thank the white knight white nationalists for making that happen; even then, I’m doing my part to prevent that from happening.
I liked the article but not the end.
Mystery Method IS still valid. We talk about evolutionary psychology and then we think that game has changed in a 10 year time? No no. It’s a solid method for how to get girls, then that one reads ROK, La Ruina, Mehow and Roosh V as an addition to get ideas is of course good.
Still all the basics of seduction is based either on Mystery Method or then Speed Seduction by Ross Jeffries.
Also to point out that this ex PUA opened with excusing and complementing a girls looks and totally unarming himself and showing neediness… Even if it could work for some girls, I’d never teach that and I doubt La Ruina taught that to him…
I haven’t seen anything wrong with the “Hi, excuse me.. where’ the nearest supermarket?” followed by…. “can you take me there?” Then using the walk to flirt a little. Works for me
It’s a Vice thing. It has been a blue pill publication for a long time now. Under the gritty and amateurish feel, it is a polished corporate concern that sneaks in typical leftist, feminist and queer ideas. A few months back on Vice UK they had an article criticizing people who lifted weighs. Sure the magazine has some quality articles but it is more and more a publication for hipsters and homos and it pushes the typical medialand liberalism.
I think a lot of the hate on PUA stems from the fact that girls can’t stand the thought of a cookbook approach to pick ups: “if I do this and wear this and say this then I’ll get laid with 90% of the girls I approach”. This damages the “special snowflake” aspect of their upbringing. As it has been said “you aren’t one in a million, you are one of a million”.
And clearly the PUA systems work, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many PUA providers. It is an industry. It wouldn’t be an industry if it never worked because then it wouldn’t make money.
https://encyclopediadramatica.es/Roosh_V
ayy lmao
I tried negging exactly once. Ended up apologizing for it not too long afterwards, married her somewhat down the road. It wasn’t even a big thing, I just told her she’d look a lot better if she weren’t hiding behind those glasses.
It helps that I was right.
“Boyfriend destroyers” maybe it is just me but isnt it the slut’s responsibility to be faithful to her boyfriend not the responsibility of some random guy out on the street?
Is that Peter Lorre in the photo with the two Indian chicks?
I believe there are a certain number of men who come by “game” naturally. I am one of those guys. I kissed my first girlfriend in 1st grade (Cheryl), and didn’t really look back from there. In my young, single days, I was constantly astonished at the quantity of attractive women who liked me, and didn’t really understand what I was doing, or why very pretty women found me attractive – especially since I did not judge myself as excessively attractive
But even those who are naturally inclined to “game” are subject to the guilt imposed on men by a society that disdains the natural dominance of men, and the effect it has on women. Also, without a better understanding of game, even natural “alphas” can be talked into acting in a beta fashion – which is the opposite of what PUA training is. Of course, the broader society has NO PROBLEM with neutering the natural Alpha Male.
What learning about Hypergamy, and engaging in the “manosphere” has done for me is to explain the mystery of why many women found me attractive in my youth. It also helps explain why I would become frustrated in my marriage when my exwife rewarded me for what I considered to be boorish behavior, and why she became bored when I did “what was expected.” It explained why jumping through all her hoops was a no win game that ended in divorce. Finally, it explained to me why, after I spent sufficient time getting over my divorce, and starting acting naturally again, women started coming on to me again.
I agree with the author of this article that how you use “game” is completely up to you. You can choose to use it to exploit women, or simply to better understand what women find attractive. You can use it to avoid behaviors that women find unattractive. The key part is having the knowledge and ACCEPTING the reality of how women act, and learning to mostly ignore what they say.
I suppose my only nit to pick is that I don’t believe that a man’s existence should revolve around picking up and bedding women. That is a dissipation of the natural talents and value of being a man. So, even if you are armed with the truth, I don’t believe your purpose in life should be bedding the maximum number of attractive women. But having said that, I think being aware of hypergamy (which can be interpreted as the “sinful nature” of women) is valuable to every man. What you do with that knowledge is completely up to you.
Great stuff. I found this particularly interesting:
But even those who are naturally inclined to “game” are subject to the guilt imposed on men by a society that disdains the natural dominance of men, and the effect it has on women.
I think this is very true. Game didn’t come so naturally to me – it was learned. When I started to get good and go through really fertile streaks I would often be dogged by a weird sense of guilt about it.
I think a big part of game for guys is giving themselves permission to do it, and to feel good about overturning what we’ve been taught should be the natural way of things.
“Predictably, the article has generated a storm of social media comments both from feminists and manboobs who are naturally opposed to the notion of pickup, but also from members of the Roosh V Forum, who might—in theory at least—be more sympathetic to it.”
Why hasnt the manboobz website (Now called wehuntedthemammoth)been shut down yet? Its just nothing but bitter feminists and manginas who have never gotten laid. Not only that but while his followers claim to be against violence, if someone disagrees with them, they say violent things to the dissagreeer (Who 99% of the time is right anyway). So much for wanting to stop violence. And im still waiting for the day that David Fattroll get fired or dies from a heart attack. And all his male supporters deserve a good beatdown.
over $3000 for a boot camp? with the same amount of money you can fuck over 10 escorts lol