One of the most unfortunate similarities the manosphere—or at least certain portions of it—has in common with social justice warriors is a fanatical opposition to “shaming.” Feminists hate it when women are “fat-shamed” or “slut-shamed,” and MRAs and “migtows” dismiss any and all criticism of their beliefs as “shaming language.” For example, a gang of angry virgins denounced my MGTOW article last week by claiming I was trying to “shame” men into getting married.
The “anti-shaming” current in the manosphere has reached the point where r/TheRedPill recently ordered participants to “keep [their] damn morals to [themselves]” after a slew of posters objected to men asking for advice on seducing married women. In doing this, r/TheRedPill has become the manosphere’s equivalent of Tumblr: a gang of special little snowflakes screeching “YOU CAN’T JUDGE ME FOR CUCKING OTHER MEN, YOU TRADCON SHITLORD!”
Shaming of immoral, unmanly, or unfeminine behavior is a necessary component of a stable society. A world that says you can’t judge people for behaving like losers or failures is one that will inevitably regress to the lowest common denominator. It’s the world we happen to live in, where kids are given participation trophies no matter how badly they suck at the game and where an old fart deep in his dotage is called “courageous” for cross-dressing and calling himself “Caitlyn.”
Shame Is Personal
The most important thing you have to understand about shame is that at the end of the day, the only person who can make you feel shame is you. While you may be insulted by someone else’s words or comments, if you feel shamed, it’s because those comments cut deep and reveal an inadequacy within you. If there isn’t some truth to the shaming attempt, all the put-downs in the world won’t affect you at all.
For example, feminists could try to shame me by saying that I live in my parents’ basement, but it wouldn’t affect me because it’s not true (my rental lease and credit report being evidence that it’s not true). Conversely, the reason why so many “migtows” became angry at my cracks about them being basement-dwelling virgins is because a great many of them are basement-dwelling virgins, and all I did was point out the truth.
Additionally, if you feel shamed over something, it’s an indicator that whatever you’re being shamed for is something you hate about yourself and want to change. For example, while a devout Christian may retain his virginity until he gets married, because he’s choosing to save himself for a higher cause, attempting to shame him for not having sex wouldn’t work. On the other hand, shaming “migtows” for being virgins is incredibly effective, because despite their claims, their inability to attract women makes them feel inferior to men who can.
Stop Acting Shamefully
Just because feminists abuse shaming in their attempts to manipulate men doesn’t mean that shaming itself is bad. Not all life choices are equal. For example, being fat is not the same as being skinny—contra the belching of “fat acceptance” activists—because not only is being fat unhealthy, fat women are physically repulsive.
No amount of agita against “fat shaming” will change this fundamental reality. The same goes for slut-shaming: girls who sleep around make worse wives and mothers than those who remain chaste.
Your worth as a man is determined by what accomplishments you’ve made and what skills you have. If you’ve accomplished nothing—indeed, try to act as if you’re proud of accomplishing nothing—you will be mocked, jeered at and disrespected by men (and women) who matter. When you try and retaliate by claiming they’re “shaming” you, you’re basically saying, “Yeah, I’m a loser, but you need to ACCEPT that I’m a loser.”
While nobody can force you to live your life a certain way, you can’t sit in your basement all day twiddling your fleshy bits to hentai and expect the same measure of respect as a man who actually accomplishes something real. Yet much in the same way that fat girls demand to be given the same deference as skinny ones, loser men in the manosphere—and moral degenerates who steal other men’s wives—demand to be treated the same as men of virtue.
The reality is that if you’re being shamed, you probably deserve it. If you’re unwilling to own the consequences of your behavior, you need to change the way you act. In other words, if you’re sick of being shamed, you should stop acting shamefully. Demanding that the rest of the world change to accommodate your failures makes you no different than a spiky-haired Tumblrina crying about how she was born with the soul of a naked mole rat and why won’t you accept her for who she is, you cishetwhitemale asshole?
At the end of the day, choices have consequences. You’re free to carve out whatever life you see fit, but I’m also free to mock you for it if your life choices are stupid. “Shaming language” is just an attempt to de-legitimize any criticism of anyone who chooses mediocrity over greatness, failure over success.
Hate the sin, not the sinner (: Fully agree with the anti-MGTOW sentiment though.
What The Devil does “tradcon” mean?
I’ve seen that term also. It seems to be a slur against the social or traditional conservatives who urge men to “man up” with no consideration for how the society has changed as a result of misguided activism. It’s one thing to man up in the 50s and 60s when marriage was not the treacherous endeavor for men that it is today. In my opinion, the tradcons should recognize this and urge men that greater caution is required in order to protect oneself. A good marriage is still a possibility but harder to find in today’s times. “Manning up” and taking in a moronic woman with the IQ of an extension cord is not “manning up” but exposing oneself to a lifetime of misery.
You touched up on their IQ but not on their befouled and shitsmeared vaginas that have been G-d knows where in their teens and twenties. That is often the dealbreaker for me. “B-b-b-b-but the past is the past!” I don’t give a shit, I don’t like your past. END OF LINE
I didn’t want to go into the “past life as a hoe” thing but I am aware of the prime importance of this feature. In fact, having been a “hoe” is a HUGE problem that warrants much discussion for men seeking a lasting and solid relationship with a woman. I am happily married and my wife takes a great deal of pride in not having been “loose”. We have a daughter and the household culture we provide for her reminds me of how I was raised which is a sentiment often expressed by my wife.
“It seems to be a slur against the social or traditional conservatives
who urge men to ‘man up’ with no consideration for how the society has changed as a result of misguided activism. It’s one thing to man up in the 50s and 60s when marriage was not the treacherous endeavor for men that it is today. In my opinion, the tradcons should recognize this and urge men that greater caution is required in order to protect oneself.”
At this point churches should be encouraging couples not to be married and performing marriage ceremonies and considering people “married” with no intention that the couple ever gets a state license. Unfortunately, thanks to LBJ (founder of the “Great Society” welfare state), churches have all signed up for 501(c)(3) status.
Oh well, eventually all real Christians in America will be underground at rate things are going, the government will be demanding they marry sodomites soon…. so…
It was only a matter of time before institutions like the Christian church became co-opted. What you’ve suggested reminds me of the way the Nation of Islam criticized the civil rights movement for encouraging dependency in the Black community through integration – a tactic that caused a capital flight in the Black community. NOI is no longer as critical as they once were even though the dominant civil rights ideology is precisely what caused the Black community to be the disaster that it is today. As much as I hate to admit, it appears that NOI, to put it mildly, softened much of their self-help/ Black nationalist orientation. NOI seems to have done what you are describing. I hope you understood my comparison.
The author is obviously a troll / wind-up merchant.
Some people need a kick in the ass with a good “shaming” otherwise they just end up letting life wash over them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E2MRlQlC4I
shame is an incredibly useful emotion. as you say, matt, you can only feel ashamed if you share the opinion of the shaming person. shaming is good because it keeps you from hiding your weaknesses from yourself. it is the world’s acknowledgment of your weaknesses and gives you a sense of reality. if there is something worse than a weakling, it is a person who sees your weakness and doesn’t dare to confront you with it to see whether you are conscious of it.
of course, shame is not something that demands action necessarily. i feel ashamed of not pursuing game, but i realize it’s my choice and stand by it as long as it is so.
shaming is a basic shit test. it’s good. it keeps you sharp. it’s the pain in the ass that makes you focus on your own fucking problems.
if you want a person’s respect, you need to live up to a person’s standards. you don’t go to the person demanding they change their standards. why would you? have your own.
that said, i do disagree with many of those moral obligations. but i don’t expect you to respect it. in fact, i usually find myself most often ashamed of caring about other people’s opinions. through disagreement, shame keeps me focused on myself.
the problem with shaming, though, is that it can be misprocesssed. i think it’s some kind of common wisdom that this happens for narcissists. that one concludes naively that it is not a particular behavior you can influence that is shameful but that your whole being and existence is shameful.
Matt, I’m just asking this out of curiosity. What are your
opinions on men of past generations who were shamed to enlist and/or go off to
war? Good? Bad? If so why or why not?
You’ve struck upon something that occurred to me while I was reading this article which are two questions: 1) is shaming good? and 2) is shaming bad? The answer to both questions, in my opinion, is “yes” and “no”. There are “rules” but there are “exceptions” to those rules. Circumstances and situations vary between all examples and so that is something that warrants thought and deliberation.
“Mur hur hur u are not fat and ugly and fuck married women so shame on you because I’m morally superior to you because I’m fat and ugly and can’t even get my dick sucked by the 400 lb land whale who gives out tuggers for McDonald’s, because that’s immoral and I’m the prophet and knower of key facts about muh obkektive morality. Listen to me cause if you do things I don’t agree with that hurt muh feels you’re an evil mean shitloard.” – Matt Forney
dude literally sounds like a fucking femicunt.
Shaming is good, says the butterball bald man-baby. “But MGTOW are bad!” Oh, the hilarious irony.
Frustrating thing About MGTOWs is that they have been given the secret sauce in the manosphere and yet they refuse to step foot in the kitchen. Sometimes I think they are more deluded than the SJWs they criticize.
Men owe you nothing.
sactly
“Shaming of immoral, unmanly, or unfeminine behavior is a necessary component of a stable society. ”
ah….hahahahahahahahahaha lozozlzozlzozlozlzozlzo
a stable society.
You say that as though it is something that we have ever witnessed, or as something we should bother aspiring to.
We are on a train whose tracks are set, Matt Forney, no point in trying to pontificate how we should live our lives now.
On a side note, I think you are using the wrong word entirely. Not your fault- but this “shaming language” you have concerned yourself with is a term we borrowed from the damned feminists.
What you are looking for is “Rebuke”.
See, you can rebuke someone you love. You can rebuke poor behavior or poor choices. Rebuke, when done correctly, is different than “shame”. For instance, if you need to correct someone, and you take them to task privately, with the intent to help them, you can deliver an effective rebuke (that they even appreciate). If this didn’t work, and you felt that their problem was so grievous that exposing them to shame in front of everyone would still be “helpful” because their coming consequences would be even worse than the public humiliation you will bring them.
Wise men know how to receive a rebuke. Wise men know how to deliver a rebuke successfully, to good result.
You, Matt, are effectively asserting that your obnoxious over-grouping attack of MGTOWs was simply a friendly rebuke from a friend who was trying to help, and that anyone who received it negatively has a “truth hurts” problem.
However, I would say that your MGTOW attack was unfair and unqualifying, and lost all it’s credibility because of that, especially as a friendly rebuke.
Your attempt to re-frame it now has failed. Instead of pouting that we rejected your (unfair) diatribe, as you have done in this post, perhaps you could stop,, take stock, and ponder how you might be able to reach and help those whom you supposedly want to help more effectively.
Because taking pot-shots is unimpressive and ineffective.
Seriously, think your shit through better.
Matt’s article last week was a good topic to write about but it was written very poorly and his portrayal of MGTOW’s as virgins was unwarranted and inaccurate.Personally I disagree with the MGTOW ‘movement’ but one needs to have intellectual dialogue instead of using ad hominems. We are all reasonable men here.
They only parts of Forney’s article I agree with is this
“Despite their claims that “there’s no difference between the left and the right,” “migtows” almost never attack the misandrist, feminist left, even though it’s the left who holds all the power in the West.” In the article I stated those were more of MRA leftist.
And the fact that some men (manginas and white knights) have taken to mgtow. Most MGTOW I think are just men that see the raw deal of dealing with today’s harpies.
Shaming will not work on mgtows, because to mgtows the whole point is not giving a shit. That’s where guys like Matt fall short.
Right.
Manginas and white knights cannot be MGTOW.
The only men who deserve shaming are white knights.
What ever else a man does, if he’s a white knight he needs to be shamed.
What ever else a man does, if he’s an anti-feminist anti-white knight he should not be shamed.
Nailed it.
This should be the top comment.
I’m pretty sure last week’s article was not meant to correct or “help” the subject. It was as you say a public humiliation. Thus, shaming was the correct word choice. All that is left for people beyond rebuke is shame. That’s the point. When society says, we have tried to help this person. This person does not heed advice, he or she does x, y, z. We will humiliate them in public to sho others the consequences of not heeding societies morality. Go get a dictionary, read some history on public shaming that are older than one hundred years, and don’t personalize what other’s write on the Web or you may come across as a subject of las week’s article.
I think there is good shame and bad shame. Shaming someone to lose weight, get a job, learn a skill or to lose bad habits are the good types because it will lead to a point of better health and self-sufficiency. But shaming to give up time, money or effort to a group collective or society is not. It’s a question of ROI. If men see no benefit, who are we or anyone else to tell men what to do or not do in that case?
We live in an individualistic society. If you choose to stick your nose in someone else’s asshole, don’t complain about the smell.
but it’s so much easier than sticking it into your own, from a purely mechanical perspective. we people are social animals. we are meant to have each others backs.
But who is this “we” you speak of?
Could you use a more quintessentially SJW term than “angry virgin” for someone who disagrees with you?
And in the first paragraph too. It’s almost comical if you didn’t take yourself so seriously.
he only writes this stuff to cause problems and get people to read his shit. he just a sad little man.
Let’s shame then
Meet the author who thinks he’s an authority in masculinity and has the looks to prove it – https://avpd0nmmng.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/matt-forney-bardamu1.jpg
What’s the problem, exactly? I mean, I guess his jeans are a tad long and his beard isn’t as grown out as it should be, but really, what are you trying to call attention to? I think perhaps that this is just a poor attempt to insult Forney because you are salty as fuck.
The tell-tale sign is the absence of a meaningful counterargument against Forney. Forney endorses shaming but he also qualifies the usage of such. The above criticisms of Forney amount to unqualified name calling and not much else.
His jeans are baggy! How in the fuck could he be taken seriously! OMG! I mean look at him. His ears aren’t even gauged and he willfully elects not to wear skinny jeans. No “ironic beard” no handlebar mustache! Where is his pink ribbon? He doesn’t have one so he clearly doesn’t support breast cancer.
He’s in a picture with a slave owner too! Those capitalist imperialists with their “Levi’s.” The woman is clearly being held captive by the very essence of the white male patriarchy!
Comment deleted and rightfully so. It had zero value.
Who Ate All The Pies, Fatt Morney Did!!
“The reality is that if you’re being shamed, you probably deserve it. If you’re unwilling to own the consequences of your behavior, you need to change the way you act.”
You are overweight. It’s time to lift some iron.
Also this, Matt Forney
But if you don’t want to change, it’s up to you. At the end of the day, it is only you that can choose. If you feel ashamed, then it’s on you, not the person shaming you. They’re only there to tell you something. You can ignore it.
The shaming I received from my family, enemies and randoms on the street inspired me to lose weight. I have lost over 15 pounds with diet and exercise.
Because some people were kind enough to tell me the truth about my appearance, I made healthy changes.
Shaming may not feel good but it is completely necessary. I’m all for fat shaming obese people because I want them to be aware of how they are ruining their lives.
Shame is the language of women, preachers and cult leaders. Same as guilt. Only useful if used against fools and weaks. I don’t know what this new agenda is about, but you better not underestimate us.
If you can’t defend your arguments with logic you are wrong. Period.
On the flip side, I also think that when people, especially feminists, try to use “shaming language” to attack or minimize an opponent, that they in turn should ALSO be shamed and called out. It’s one thing to shame someone with the truth (which is really just you making them aware of a problem that is only hurting them) and something completely different to shame someone as a means of shutting down a conversation.
This reminds me of a jury trial I was on about 2 years ago. A Hispanic guy crippled his coworker (another Hispanic guy) for banging his wife while he was away for work for 6 months. And throughout the trial, his wife was by her husband’s side the entire time and giving looks of contempt towards her former lover. The prosecutor thought it was an open and shut case (and it really was), but she ignored the demographics of the jury. No one on it was white (I’m Asian), although I guess this is kind of par for the course in the US these days. In any case, by the second day it was pretty clear to everyone in the courtroom that even though he was guilty, the husband was going to get off. Some of the jury members kept giving giving the victim looks of disgust right from the jury box, so I thought it was really obvious. Also there were two black ladies and I thought these jurors would be law-and-order types because they were old but they said something like “he knew the score, and sometimes you gotta pay the pied piper” which I thought was hilarious. In the end, the prosecution was so desperate to avoid a not guilty verdict that she offered a massively reduced sentence for a guilty plea. So instead of years it was just months. I dont know why he took it but I guess he just didnt want to risk it.
In any event, my opinion is that when those /r/theredpill guys say its not wrong to go after married women, theyre right. Its not illegal and it shouldnt be. But these same guys shouldnt count on the law protecting them from vengeful husbands. At least not in any country where jury trials are the norm.
weaklings always take the moral high ground. can’t live with competition? go die. people judge those who are selfish because they are addicts to a life of comfort and would throw their granny under the bus to keep on living in the illusion of safety.
Yeah, whatever. Or maybe you should just refrain from screwing another man’s wife, ya fuckin’ degenerate.
get out of my face, idiot.
Cease your imbecility at once, catamite!
damn, exclamation marks are so feminine. if you were a pretty girl, i would be turned on now.
I was just being a smart-ass, by referring to you as “catamite,” but I can’t honestly say I’m surprised you went all faggotty by what…your third remark. Typical.
not bad. keep practicing and you may some day give some lonely virgin a ptsd.
Yeah, I’m sure a guy who goes around cuckolding other men, has a great deal of concern for the feelings of his fellow man. Go jump off a cliff, you loathsome worm.
you are right, i don’t give a fuck about the feelings of “my fellow man”. having a penis does not make you my friend.
it’s not a very good retort, but: worms do not jump in real life, you basement-dwelling video game addict.
LOL, I haven’t played video games since the 90s. I live with my woman in a house we bought with the money we earned. You should try it sometime. Our basement’s pretty nice, admittedly, but I don’t spend a lot of time down there.
okay, you win.
So how come he didn’t kick the wife to the curb.
i think the explanation is quite straight-forward.
you seem to think it’s not, though. why?
Sorry. Yes, he’d rather keep the slore bitch than have to do the work of finding the a better woman or going it alone.
indeed. by beating up the other man, he actually obfuscates her responsibility. it’s like beating up the new boss of my former employee for making him a better offer.
Damn, super edgy objective self interest/materialism, dude! You sound like a great friend!
the best you will ever have.
Agreed, Messing with another Man’s wife is never Good.
A reasonable person after thinking about it wouldn’t have a legitimate criticism. The primary issue with shaming language to me is that it’s usually a deflection that doesn’t address any of the points that are brought up during a discussion. Additionally, it’s usually the same old ‘you’re-a-virgin-who-lives-in-your-mother’s-basement-can’t-get-laid-and-only-works-10-hours-a-week-at-at-Walmart-so-that-you-can-pay-for-your-favourite-porn-site-Matt-Forney’s-House-of-P.O.V.-Hand-Jobs.com-a-couple-Playstation-games-and-that’s-it’.
The truth is that Matt can’t criticize MGTOW for a lot of things because they are the same things that that some readers of RoK want. Not getting married fits, not getting wasting money on bullshit fits, getting healthy fits, not being a white knight fits, denigrating feminism fits, not bothering with SJWs fits so what’s the problem?
I don’t think Matt Forney is saying he’s perfect and beyond criticism but that some shame and some stigma has a use in society to keep people in line. If you take away shame/stigma then all is acceptable. Take fatties for example. Fat acceptance is a real thing despite the overwhelming evidence that being obese is mostly ALL bad. If fatties have their way all of society should change to accommodate them……..
The fatpocolypse is coming…..be afraid.
Why shaming men and woman is important and necesary” but You forgot to say why is important, all I see is ad-hominems.
because you are gay if you don’t see why it is important.
The title is “Why shaming men and woman is important and necessary” but You forgot to say why is important, all I see is ad-hominems.
The title is “Why shaming men and woman is important and necessary” but You forgot to say why is important and necessary, all I see is ad-hominems.
You miss the whole, “if you accommodate those who fail to achieve, society falls to the least common denominator” bit?
on the other hand, people who are shamed into doing something will be likely less effective than those who choose so freely. just look at the way socialism failed; to work meant to find ways to delay work.
“Conversely, the reason why so many “migtows” became angry at my cracks about them being basement-dwelling virgins is because a great many of them are basement-dwelling virgins, and all I did was point out the truth.”
Lol. So if I get angry when you say something untrue it means that thing is true about myself?
Almost sounds like if gay people make you uncomfortable, you must be gay.
women schwimen- whats up with greece today? Souvlaki imports will skyrocket in price for usa? Putin reaching out to greece…hmmm…some say their common religious base might unite em- what do you think? More geopolitical funfunfun??
“Don’t shame me.” Appears to mean, “Don’t hold me accountable or responsible for my actions.”
Okay, I’m fine with that, just don’t preach your crap as having value.
Traditional society looked out for the interests of lower status men by shaming promiscuous women and arranging for women to marry as young virgins before these women could damage themselves – and a whole lot of women will readily harm themselves through promiscuity with men unsuitable for husbands when you leave them unsupervised.
And you don’t need religious belief to see women’s real inclinations; you can observe this empirically. Apparently it never occurred to those atheist sexual utopians in the last century that women would exercise their sexual freedom by rejecting and excluding more and more men from ever having sexual relationships. This trend has advanced so far in Japan that a quarter of Japanese men in their 30’s have had no sexual experience.
that’s evolution at work, brother. from that perspective, i find it wonderful.
All good points.. not sure what your comment has to do whatsoever with this particular article though.
My thoughts exactly.
Does this mean we can slut shame Jennifer Lawrence or not?
Let me see. So the message in the manosphere includes a combination of:
“Ignore and/or deconstruct women and feminists shaming men!”
…and…
“Listen to men shaming men!”
So to start with, every Man has been taught not to listen to shaming language at all. In fact, to sneer at those who use shaming language – because it’s manipulative and despicable and a lowbrow non-quality means of persuading people. As per Graham’s Hierarchy of Arguments.
Then: pull out the most basic of textbook shaming language. Aim it at other men. (For what purpose? To coax them into chasing pussy? Newsflash! You need to watch Redonkulous – What Is MGTOW?)
Then: wonder why the response is overwhelmingly negative. In fact, why someone just might pull out a .50 cal elephant gun and give it from both barrels.
Is this doubling-down on a position, like men do to women? Agree and amplify? Is this clickbait? Is this jumping the shark?
I wonder if this comment will get me banned from here?
“No whining allowed”, I believe is the rule.
Exactly. I can’t respect men who whine and complain.
Here’s a tissue for their issues!
you are an ass hat.
I am an asshat too!
And a virgin!
um. congratulations?
Thank you!
My level 120 Paladin crushes everything you have in WoW!
i have nothing in wow.
but i saw two “paladins” like you fail at school after a year of obsessing over this stuff. not that school is that important, but, yeah, there’s still better stuff to do.
Come on, lets be cereal, are we supposed to take that kind of horseshit at face value….
People shaming us want us to pay for something, or do something..,..
What is in it for us, please tell !
I totally failed in school, at least the first time around,
I do employ people though who did well….
If only I could go back in time so that people would give me a job.,.,,
well, chasing women gets you women.
doing good work gets you respect.
living by principles (your own, of course) gets you self-respect and stability.
following morals would profit you if the people in power would be enforcing them.
following morals will get you the respect of those who share your morals. are these people living the life you want to live? do you want / need their respect? keep in mind that there is no current consensus – as in: commonly accepted truth – on morality issues.
doing what others want you to do will make you all warm and fuzzy. for the two minutes before you realize you just sacrificed your own reason.
the math is pretty easy in the end, isn’t it?
Please accept my apologies Sir, I thought you were an idiot.
Turns out, you are not, my mistake.
god damn, i can’t stand the look of apology on a man’s face. if it helps, i accept it.
Dude, you got trolled…
what does that mean?
Hey now, don’t go trolling me.
lies…..
Yes, I am an ass hat. Thank you. Thank you.
where is irony on your rainbow pride pyramid?
“Feel shame for what is shameful to you. Don’t feel shame for what others tell you to feel shameful for.”
The first one comes from red pill men trying to make you better. The second comes from feminism.
Interestingly put, I kind of like that. To paraphrase: “Feel shame for what is shameful to you. Red Pill men trying to make you better.”
A question about this though. Ignoring the whole shaming attempt thing of calling these guys virgins who can’t get laid – which some are definitely not.
It seems to me to be a lack of respect towards these men, of whatever stripe. These people (MGTOW) are nominally adults and in many cases chose their lifestyle. Whatever the events that caused them to go in various ways. Whether it’s a cost-benefit analysis, getting screwed over by a really bad ex-wife, seeing what happened to a friend or family member, etc.
It seems as though some Red Pill men are projecting their sense of “what is shameful to you” on to these others, who have decided their path through life. This seems to be a lack of empathy and consideration towards their fellow-men. A lack of respect for their choices in life.
Very female- and feminist-like in it’s way.
It’s very female- and feminist-like to be personally insulted by a broad description. If the statements do not apply to you, then you have no need to defend yourself.
Title of Article: “Why Shaming Men and Women is Important and Necessary”
Link at Bottom: “A New Study Claims That Fat Shaming doesn’t Work”
LOL
This is a great article! Thanks Matt!
The problem we have today is that we have too many people who are not willing to stand up to all the PC garbage that is currently out there today.
Did you guys see what happened to the former Man vs Food host when he called out those land whales. The PC army put him in his place. NBC/universal coincidently enough is doing the same thing to Donald Trump now because he actually said something that made a modicum of sense in regards to Mexico. People should be shamed! We need to set standards! We live in a culture where everything is considered ok. You know things have really decayed to the point where Russia is now making more sense than our own culture. Can I ask what the heck happened to us? In Russia, in response to the Facebook gay flag overlays we’ve seen online the last couple of days, they’ve created their own with the Russian flag. WTF!? I know this post is all over the place but shaming is important if we are going to bring balance back to western civilization. By the way, in encourage everyone to change your social media profile pictures to your parents wedding photo. Make a stand! Out!
Bitches happened.
Ironically, right below this article in my feed is another ROK article titled, “How to deal with people who hate on your lifestyle.”
Lol. I saw that.
Yea, what was that about ignoring people that try to shame you? i.e. “man-up and ____!”, “your dating too many girls”, “when are you going to get married?”.
Seriously RoK, make up ur freagin mind.
Details matter though. The guy who wrote that article is not some loser MGTOW who doesn’t get any pussy. Its the MGTOWs and other miserable gits who hate on the author’s lifestyle.
True. That’s why I said it was ironic, not hypocritical.
I do not believe I have ever seen anyone claiming to be a MGTOW ragging on other guys for running game, or chasing tail. However I run across PUA and MRA types looking down on MGTOW for what? Not chasing pussy? Not marrying? Why do they care so much what someone does with their time if it does not affect them?
I couldn’t quote anyone to you but I guess Matt has someone in mind.
Most people feel shame regardless. Just looking for someone else just as shameful to feel better.
People that celebrate your own weaknesses and vices can be a really tempting offer sometimes. Gotta just keep that shit away.
Well, the question I had in reading this article and comments is:
Shall we become Kings, Knaves, or eunuchs?
(There may even be room for a few Jesters).
Shame is related to perspective. There is a fine line between shaming and hating. People imoe don’t tend to shame the one who deserves it most, but the one who everyone else shames the most. The rebuke thing is proper imo. The shaming of other people to raise yourself up in the world just another way of tossing shit and being territorial. It gives the gift of negativity which can have a domino effect on communities like herpes.
Listen to sun tzu man. If an order is unclear it’s on the general. Avoid fighting if the location isn’t critical. Know what the route to victory is before you engage or you will lose. Prepare on the left and you’re weak on the right. Eos.
Funny, when Stardusk and Barbaroosaaa where outed they not only did not look like virgins they actually were quite attractive, in a manly kind of way.
Furthermore I think it was Roosh himself who posted that it was not lack of experience but experience with women that lead to disillusionment…..
Please excuse me while I go back to my virgin ways, I will probably hit a notch count of a thousand before I kick the bucket if history is any judge.
Come on, call us PIGtow, like AVFM, why don´t you and after everything is said and done we still won´t pull your plough.
XoXo….
If I read between the lines here, it seems like Forney is a little upset with the reaction to his MGTOW article from last week. Why, dude? To paraphrase Meditations, don’t these guys have it bad enough stumbling around in the dark? Show them by being a living example. A superior man wouldn’t kick a defeated opponent on the ground when he doesn’t need to. Ungentlemanly behavior, you are better than this.
I’m not clear who’s the defeated party?
Don’t wish to be “shamed?” Then cease behaving like a barnyard animal.
or look like a barnyard animal.
I agree. I think men and women should be shamed when they act in terrible immoral ways. I don’t want to hang around losers, be desensitized to bad behavior, or have society desensitized to bad behavior. Shaming is how you keep a society where people are pressured to do the right thing instead of whatever serves them at the moment… and that protects all of us. Screw the people who say not to shame… I’m going to shame people and they better not shame me for doing it!
pretty much like other articles going viral, like “5 reasons not date an indian girl” cut deep on indian girls and they reacted like mental unstable people as predicted and tried insults and play up exceptions to the rule to justify their points. but their reaction not only proved your point but also hit them personally since there was some truth to it.
Same story with the “signs shes a slut”,”piercings,tattoos and pixie cuts are damaged girls” got a shit ton of typically angry comments for a reason because there was some truth to it and it hit them personally.
egotistical people dont want to reminded of their inferiorities,females especially,like shell act like a whore but doesnt want to be called one and rather be considered a lady. Their sense of self worth is very weak….the same can be said about men that make themselves more then they are….though in pua is kinda necessary, humble doesnt sell in the west, but its better.
End of the day you have to accept your faults and make the most of what you got. Thats when you get the respect you deserve.
“females especially,like shell act like a whore but doesnt want to be called one and rather be considered a lady”
I was thinking about why do women like to be dominated. Why do they keep on saying: I want to be swept of my feet..
Well here’s why they say that.. They want to be rammed up the ass, and pretty much every other hole after that, but they don’t want to mentally deal with it.. In other words, they can always claim “I was powerless.. Somebody else did it to me. Did I enjoy it? Yes, but we’re not talking about that part.”
Typical.. Having her cake and eating it too.
Most of these lardos after having their cake and everyone else’s cake, can’t be swept off their feet.
princess mindset, have all benefits without responsibiltes, they dont have an internal locus of control, its always someone elses fault or doing. Its a pretty narcisstic thiking if you think about it, like the world owes you something just by being born, but will tell others that herself owes you nothing.
I like how Forney just keeps pushing the virgin angle. He knows that is the only way to be critical of MGTOW while trying to pretend he gives a shit about any of them. Responding to a false perspective is not an admittance of guilt or shame. People have been calling out his bullshit all throughout the last MGTOW thread, and yet he persists in this nonsense. What a fraud.
Wondering how long before the “tiny dick” claim is employed.
I do have a very small penor….
That is why no woman would want me, nor would Matt Fourney because he is all about sexual experience and penis size….
Bit of a size queen, actually…
“If you can’t reach my prostate, I won’t make myself prostrate.”
-Matt “Boipussy” Forney
One wonders why he is so obsessed with the sex lives of other men.
gr8 b8 m8 u r8 8/8
“I like how Forney just keeps pushing the virgin angle. He knows that is the only way to be critical of MGTOW while trying to pretend he gives a shit about any of them.”
Agreed. Aaron Clarey actually lives the MGTOW credo, and he’s a good example of the proper…well, ideal way to live that lifestyle. Not sure if you’ve seen his vid criticizing certain fringes of the movement, but while walking the walk, he gives an apt description of MGTOW, fair criticism of the movement as a whole, and rightfully blasts the guys who use the word as a shield for their own failures with women and in life. Not ONE ad hominem in sight or earshot of the video. So, he has a much better grasp on both sides of the fence. While I would disagree with you in calling Matt Forney a fraud, I will state how disappointed I am in this article. If he’s blasting the fraudulent MGTOW, or the “loser virgin” fringe (as they do exist), then that’s one thing. But it seems that he’s pulling out the broad paintbrush and taking random swipes all over the canvas, thus painting them all to be one specific way. Completely unfair and disheartening. He can do better.
My impression of MGTOW isn’t that they’re virgins; quite the opposite. They’re sad sacks who lost their virginity to Miss Wrong (or, worse, Mrs) or got run over by Ms Wrong not long after that.
Shame will work to get migtows to quit lying to themselves, so, there’s that. But it won’t cure the emotional cripples left behind.
MGTOWs keep responding to the claim because it hurts them. They feel shame from their core about it, and that’s why it works.
You responded to me. Does that mean you feel shame about being an idiot like Forney?
Forney has lost any credibility he had with me. He talks of how difficult it is to get laid in Portland. If he has lived the places I have, he would realize how comparitively easy it is to get laid in Portland.
You mean Porkland? As Tom Leykis would say 🙂
I’ve only been there to visit family, so I’ve not seen this first hand.
But when I was floating around chatrooms in the later 1990s, the first nudie pic I got was sent my way by an Oregon woman (couple years older than me). I’d expected clothes on. “Oregon girls are bold” she told me. Seems not much has changed in a couple decades.
“Conversely, the reason why so many “migtows” became angry at my cracks
about them being basement-dwelling virgins is because a great many of
them are basement-dwelling virgins, and all I did was point out the truth.”
Forney lobs writ-large ad hominem attack at MGTOWS, an entire sub-community of the manosphere, individual men that he knows nothing of personally…these guys are nameless and faceless to him…and replying “But that’s not true Matt” somehow validates his fallacious claims? Get the fuck outta here with this shit. This is literally woman-style arguing. This is what Tumblrinas use to skirt around arguments. Having a healthy sense of shame is great. Does it legitimize the use of shame based ad hominem attacks? Of course not, especially when those attacks aren’t even factually accurate.
And honestly, Men Going Their Own Way is the only way making much of an impact on today’s fucked up interpersonal gender dynamics.
Matt Forney is once again, directing shame at men in the MGTOW movement. Fundamentally, the movement is a group of guys who have chosen not to get married. You cannot be MGTOW and be married. Bachelorhood is essential.
So why is Matt Forney criticizing them? Does he want men to get married? In that case, he is a fool who should stop writing for ReturnofKings. Marriage is a raw deal for men. Forney is giving destructive advice to many men and is a fool for not seeing this.
Forney didn’t take it very well when he got shamed for being a drunk asshole during the Amren conference.
Whatever you say noodle arms.
Truly, there is a litany of quotable quotes in this article.
On another note there was a time when if one stole another man’s wife and said man found out one’s time on this earth would be shortly ended. In essence, consequences kept men and women in line. Or, in other words, consequences for one’s actions kept a society in strict adherence to the morals of that society. We are witnessing-and have for some time-the lack of consequences for one’s actions leading to the type of society of which this publication owes its essence.
Poor MGTOWs constantly getting ragged on by men and women alike. MGTOWs are alright if you ask me… Go to another fucking castle and catch princess cheating with some shroomed out gangster-wannabe?
Fuck that… I’m going to bed…
Yeah, I don’t understand the Mgtow hate.. Ah, it must have something to do the the neo masculinity stuff.. well, OK…
Personally, I’m more in favor of neomasculinity than MGTOW. I really can’t hold anything against a lot of the MGTOWS, though. Sure, some of them are whiny bitches, and when they are I’ll call them out on it. But beyond that I’m not going to try and shame them like SJWs and feminists do because they’ve been fucked by the system and our society.
Shame them when they behave like the SJWs/Feminists and do nothing but bitch, whine, and have a victim complex. But if people are actually concerned with MGTOWs, then help work towards creating an alternative culture and society that is appealing. If neomasculinity is what proves to gain traction, then so be it, but it has to be done organically.
I shame them because every time we publish an article to help them get laid, get in shape, and have a better social life, they throw it back in our face like a bunch of passive aggressive ingrates.
They inundate the comments with this defeatist drivel about women not being worth any effort.
Besides sex what does the modern western women bring to the table?
This!
I enjoy the Sandman videos you directed. There is nothing wrong with being MGTOW. Although it shouldn’t be at the expense of human interaction unless you go 100% off the grid. I think isolation in cities is a mental health hazard while in nature one has the time to reflect and contemplate. There have certainly been times in my life where is was necessary to be MGTOW and there have been times where it was essential to he in a relationship. However at the eve of the day if feminists and MGTOWs don’t reproduce as per their ideology they are at a dead end socially speaking
I don’t think you necessarily have to not be in a relationship if you’re MGTOW. You just have to make it clear to the woman that you’re going your own way and she’s just along for the ride.
I think MGTOW has a problem with identity. It’s become a bit like atheism, where a lot of it stopped being about just being someone who didn’t believe in a deity, but you also had to be in “Atheism plus” and adhere to the tenants that they developed for their philosophy.
MGTOW should simply be a man going his own way and leading his life the way he see fits, with everyone else along for the ride if he lets them.
To me MGTOWs are red-pillers that found something to do besides chasing floozies.
If they don’t breed, then that is their choice and their problem. It’s ok to point that out to them. If they start voting for socialism (they are often compared to feminists), then they are my enemy, but by virtue of their political stance not their lifestyle choice. The MGTOWs I’ve paid attention to however tend to be libertarian and realize government legislation does not favour men as a group.
The ROK articles insulting the MGTOW crowd to me just seem counter-productive. I read it as “Haha look at those needle-dick losers. Get off your lazy asses and be like us.” Iunno something about it just doesn’t jive with me.
Yeah, it’s really hard to sell something else to MGTOWs when you’re calling them faggots instead of shitlord misogynists like feminists do.
To me it’s simply a question of “what do we have to offer that’s better?” If you can’t come up with a better solution and sell it to MGTOWs, then fuck off. Personally, I like neomasculinity a lot more than other things I’ve seen from the manosphere. I would like to see that gain traction, and I believe it could be a great thing that helps turn this culture and society around if we can get more MGTOWs on board with it. But that’s not going to happen if you’re too autistic to know how to sell it and just call MGTOWs names like our enemies do.
Exactly.
Don’t they sound just like feminists? Don’t need no man, refuse their biological imperative, focus on their career and so on.
I have to say, these MGTOWs sound like a sad bunch.
Feminism makes no sense because women are trying to be men.
Men focusing on their career and holding out until they have resources has been going on since forever though.
But if this is what’s really happening… then yeah I guess…
“Focus on my career” is feel good rhetoric for a man trying to justify his hermit existence. Who doesn’t focus on their career besides deadbeats? You think that guys that go out and get laid aren’t working on their careers?
Feminists say “focus on my career” to justify riding the cock carousel.
MGTOWs actually think they are better for it hah.
Waiting until you are ready? You will never be ready. This is an excuse for inaction.
Its like I say, there is a time for work and there is a time for play.
Hey that rhymes!
MGTOW is not about holding out until enough resources have been saved up. Where did you get that idea?
A lot of MGTOW are focused on money.
I don’t know who these Dorito-boys are that everyone is talking about.
Agreed. Plus not all MGTOWs are virgins. If they want to fuck, fine, if not, fine too. It is still better than being a mangina.
For true MGTOWs the focus is indeed on their careers and making cash, among other things.
It is not, however, about holding out until they have enough resources and then get married and/or start a family.
Do any of these MGTOWs go on backpage.com and pay to get their horn’s scraped? After all, if they live like hermits (“focusing on their career”) they must have some coin saved for pay pussy?
A quote:
“So, what does a guy do when his business is handled, his bank account is in the black, and he has adequate free time on his hands? Anything he fucking feels like doing is the answer. Aside from handling the basic necessities of life—shopping, the gym (yes, exercising is a necessity), and maintaining my assets—I’m free to do whatever I please.
My actions can’t be judged by anyone because I’m not beholden to anyone. I set the standards and expectations for my life. The responsibility of getting the job done—and carving out my own path to happiness—rests solely on my shoulders, and I welcome this responsibility with open arms.”
– A.V. Yader, How To Deal With People Who Hate On Your Lifestyle.
Seems like a pretty decent idea Matt, here’s a link to the full article:
I found it funny that these 2 articles were back to back on the front page of this site.
Congradulations Matt, you’ve pretty much proven yourself to be the unwanted step child of manosphere blogging.
Seriously? Where did they find this guy? Roosh is slippin. I will leave it to George Carlin to summarize what I think of this writer (Mr. Forney).
…Figured him out in less than 8 seconds.
I am a male virgin in my late 20s.
As a teenager, I was ugly. I was weak. I had the worst acne of anyone I knew. I was (and am) very introverted and sensitive.
On top of that, I was sexually molested by a person who would later go on to do the same, and worse, to a disabled relative.
I didn’t have a good male role model in my life. My mother was my best friend.
No girl wanted me…no girl that I was interested in, at least.
I had one buddy I hung out with, and he treated me like shit. Never tried to help me, just laughed at my misery.
I felt shame for years and years. Telling myself I’m worthless and should kill myself. Over, and over, and over, and over again. Day in and day out. “I’m ugly. I’m a loser. I should kill myself.” That was my mantra. That’s what this society says I should feel.
I knew I had talent, though, and a whole world inside of me that nobody knew about.
I don’t live with my family now. In fact, they’re on the other side of the country. No “mother’s basement” for me.
I moved to LA in my early 20s to pursue my dreams of working in the entertainment industry – being an actor and making films.
It’s been a struggle. I’ve dealt with horrible depression and anxiety. I have been laughed at, insulted, threatened. There have been many times when I didn’t know if I’d be able to pay rent or have enough money for food. I’ve even been homeless a couple times.
When I finally got a car, it got stolen a year later. I got it back, but after a couple months it broke down for good and I had to get rid of it. But even with all this bullshit (and that’s just the tip of the iceberg), I persisted.
Since moving here, I’ve had a supporting role in a major motion picture, in which I shared the screen with an Oscar winner. In fact, I’ve met and/or worked with multiple people who have been nominated for or have won Academy Awards. I’ve performed in numerous stage plays. I made a very well-received short film in which I directed guys who are “alpha” in every sense of the word, and they respect the hell out of me, even after learning of my celibacy.
I’ve been called a great actor and director by people I respect.
I’ve been called brilliant, a genius, a “star” even. I’ve received spontaneous applause multiple times during stage performances.
People have told me they see me as a leader and an inspiration. All that stuff makes me want to roll my eyes, but it’s what people have said.
I actually have friends now. Good friends, who’ve got my back. Most of them are actors and/or male models, some of whom no doubt have a bright future ahead.
I’m average height but in good physical shape. I’m strong and fit. I have a deeper, manlier, more authoritative voice than anyone I know. I’ve heard on multiple occasions that people find me intimidating.
Women have called me “amazing,” “handsome,” “beautiful,” “manly,” etc. There are girls who have practically begged me to go out with them or sleep with them. The problem is, the ones where there was mutual interest, I’ve always managed to make mistakes due to my insecurities, or miss windows of opportunity. It’s a learning process, it’s not going to happen overnigbt. But nevertheless, I am trying to improve that area of my life, which is why I read sites like this.
So tell me, Matthew…what do I have to be ashamed of exactly?
These “loser” men you speak of, whose situations you couldn’t possibly know. What are you doing to help them?
Powerful post. No one should chide another man for riding his edge. The conflicting notion here is, on another part of the gamut lies some MGTOW whom have chided those of the ROK movement for their behavior because they viewed us as anti-society, anti-women, anti-life, and anti-respect. To effect he said MGTOW have become the male loon to feminist and if you look at what the more publicized MGTOW does then one can agree.
However, all the MGTOW who frequent here have displayed was a proclivity towards self improvement and disdain for marriage. So like feminists, there isn’t a behavior that is common to all but there are some common tenements. No marriage and why play fair with an unfair player. I also agree with these core tenements. It is a part of being a man as we all have principles, undecided by us, which demonstrate loyalty, honesty, and fairness. Where Matt falls drastically short is he assumes the role of chiding parent while disobeying basic animal tenements. Men only yield to the superior man. There are no exceptions. And men going their own way have decided they need no clan to decide for them what is superior.
I love many aspects of your post as you have done what the superior man has done, time and time again; take his fears and turn them in on themselves shouting to the world, “I WILL NOT BE DEFEATED!” Good on you and a solid addition.
Good for you my friend.
As someone who is also introverted and very sensitive, I understand how difficult it is to take yourself out of your shell and find the confidence to talk to women, and not allow their rejections to hurt you.. which is easier for some people than others.. but especially difficult for sensitive and introverted guys like us.
I don’t think Matt’s article is aimed at you though. He’s taking aim a particular group of people who claim they want to go their own way and want nothing to do with women .. when really they just aren’t capable of getting women in the first place. I’m not saying his characterization of the MiGTOWs is correct.. Honestly, I have no clue and it’s difficult to know how many of them are genuinely men who do have options and who have had lots of sexual experiences with women but just don’t see the benefit of marriage and relationships with women these days and how many of them are simply unattractive omegas who women aren’t interested in to begin with. But from what you described about yourself, you are in no way part of the MGTOW group.. You are simply someone that life has dealt a difficult and unfair deck of cards to, and as a result, someone who is still a virgin in his 20s. So what… Instead of whining and complaining about your unfair lot in life, you are doing something about it, and already have.
You have overcome several obstacles.. and still are in the process of doing so. So what if you’re a virgin in your 20s.. you will lose your virginity soon enough if what you say is true about lots of women finding you manly and handsome and attractive. It’s just a matter of time. To be honest though.. and as someone who lost his virginity later in life.. it wasn’t anything special when I finally did have sex and lose my virginity. It’s just a release… inside a woman.. rather than in another way. At least for me, it wasn’t anything special.. and I didn’t feel any “manlier” or more accomplished just for ejaculating inside a woman. It was good to get that burden of being a virgin off my back.. but it wasn’t a big deal and having sex with a woman is really in no way a particularly great accomplishment. It is an animal act in the end. .an act of release.. and that’s about it. So don’t feel any less of a person just because you’re a virgin in his 20s.. No one is going to know.. and even the woman you finally lose your virginity to isn’t going to know you’re a virgin. .and I highly recommend you don’t tell her. I didn’t in my case. I “performed” well enough and she had no clue I was still a virgin.
Anyway, good luck to you.
I am not sure Matt is referring to you. You sound like you are engaging with females rather than not. In this case, your “virgin” status is immaterial. The impression I have from Matt’s two articles is that he is criticizing those men who claim that they are no longer engaging with females. I often call these men Male Feminists or Menimists since they mirror the exact behavior we criticize feminists (particularly the fat “I don’t need no man” feminists) for. What these men are doing is deluding themselves into thinking they have a choice when in fact they are letting fear rule their lives.
It does not sound to me like you let fear rule your life. Quite the opposite in fact.
Btw, we’ve all fucked up closing the “sure thing”. 🙂
I’m glad things are now working out, and great for you for overcoming all the b.s. life handed you.
But the “shame” thing discussed in Men’s Rights/MGTOW/etc. isn’t the same thing.
Forney’s a narcissist, and he’s got platform: Like the Senior put in charge of a high school Freshman gym class. He just confuses issues because he’s too busy throwing his weight around.
Shaming is a manipulative tactic adopted by most women to control men’s behavior. Men can’t really shame other men the same way. A woman will berate you about staying out late (implying you’re unfit for “Adult” relationships), they’ll keep bringing up how you were cheated in a car-repair deal (to attack your masculinity), they’ll criticize you for not going to your mother’s house for her birthday (a statement that you’re irresponsible), etc., etc., etc. And it’s not an attempt to get you to be a better person, but to make you feel weak, immasculated, and stupid. It’s to get an upper hand and it’s a power play. Women naturally have a sadistic nature, and shaming is a way to hurt another person emotionally.
A huge part of the Men’s Movement and taking the red pill is about recognizing these shaming strategies for what they are, how they’re used, and how to get out of the trap that society has set up for us to make us fall for it all and be manipulated by it.
As an aside, most women chase after “bad boys” and despise “nice guys.” Interestingly, the bad boys don’t respond to shaming, but nice guys do. The next time you’re talking with your freinds about failed pick-ups at bars, or see it in a movie, notice the women generally reject men with shaming techniques or implications. (“go home to your mother,” “you’re dick is probably too small,” “no, I think engineers are boring,” etc. They’re all geared toward making you feel bad about yourself.)
Hahahaha, yep, I just need to man up
Matt Forney should lose some weight and stop whining, if he ever wants to be seen as the bastion of masculinity that he is in his imagination only
Come on ! Be nice ! Why would you shame the dysfunctional person ? Think about their sensitivities, the are easily offended, & they want respect to shown to them.
you wouldn’t want to be known as some-kind of a right-wing Ku Klux Klan white extremist ?? Would you ??
Shaming is emotional play for teenage girls, that kind of tactic works on women and therefore should be reserved for, women
Men should be more straightforward – just say exactly what’s wrong without any emotional baggage
A great article full of truth. All of pseudo-Christian claptrap that “You’re not supposed to judge” is pure nonsense. Jesus said, “Don’t judge unless you are willing to be judged yourself..” He then went on to clarify what he meant. “The same standard you use against others will be used against you.” In other words, Be Prepared to be Judged Yourself.
It’s impossible to live life without judging. Every decision you make is a judgment. Life is nothing but discriminating against one thing in favor of something else. And the manginas, queers and SJWs are terrified of being judged themselves.
And thanks for pointing out you can’t shame a Christian virgin and why. Because he’s PROUD of his commitment to his Lord! He would be ashamed if he committed fornication, but not out of some twisted disgust at his sex drive, but because betrayed his commitment to God. I was a virgin when I married at 26, and although i jerked off endlessly and was ashamed of my lack of self-control (how little did I know), I was never ashamed if someone “accused” me of being a virgin.
And women who are attracted to spiritual guys are turned on by his commitment, even as they do their best to make him break it! Heterosexual priests get hit on ALL the time. Another contradiction of the feminine psyche.
Even though I was just such a Christian virgin by choice in my teens and early twenties, I would have benefited greatly if the knowledge of Game had been around. Why? Because being a spiritual man does NOT guarantee you will marry the “right ONE.” Nor does it prepare you for for living with a woman for the rest of your life. Especially not in the completely co-opted, feminized version of Christianity that’s been taught since the seventies by Dobson, et al.
But that’s a subject for several other websites to tackle!
Great article. Let the shaming begin!
This is well said Matt. I would add something here. Generally, the very people we think should feel ashamed are usually the ones that don’t (think a child abuser), whereas many people feel ashamed when actually they have no reason to (think an adult who suffered abuse as a child).
Both of these states are signs of mental illness. So while I agree that we should make our point of views known (concerning men who have essentially given up – not an indication of great character) we should not expect anything other than denial from people clearly suffering from a degree of mental illness.
The only people who can save these people, are these people themselves.
In prehistoric times the losers just died. Not wanting to work while being healthy? You rot away, fine. Now everything must be kept alive and thriving. Welfare for all is a lie that goes against nature. There is almost no natural selection anymore. And with the christian morals euthanasia is also a taboo. We have to keep people alive when their bodies at age 85 want to die? Just let nature take it’s course.
Shaming is all we can do now, since killing weaklings is forbidden. But instead of just laughing at people and calling them losers we should hand them a mirror. Because that is morally better than just shaming somebody. A good man should help somebody else with his superior morals.
I know in Australian pre schools, you aren’t allowed to tell a child off anymore cause he/she will get upset. You have to change their focus onto something else.
It was only 30 years ago I was being spanked by my teacher in front of the class for being naughty where I behave myself from then on.
Society has gone to fucking shit in such a small period of time due to giving dysfunctional Feminists power!
This is some of the lamest content I have ever seen here. The author is clearly projecting as he is both fat and looks like a virgin, basement-dweller himself. Go lift some weights and get a makeover before lecturing others, smartass.
Yet another good article by matt forney.we seriously need to shame the filth of society.
Shame used to be one of the most important tools society had for keeping each other in check. You didn’t fuck your neighbors wife… because you’d feel shame. You didn’t rob the church… because you’d feel shame. And society would make sure you felt it.
Nowadays shame is very much still alive… it’s just that it’s only the right of the fanatical marxist left.
I don’t care about what happens to whiny fat/drunk/stupid bastards, but on a personal level, if you are trying to help a non-shitlord friend, then encouragement is a better path. If fat-shaming actually worked, we would be a nation of thin people.
Good article. I was already losing my hope about the manosphere because it seemed to become an inclusive-at-all-costs hugbox just like any other nerd-circle.
It’s funny and kinda weird that any kind of niche movement eventually because a hugbox that forbids any kind of shaming or judging of its members, be it gamers, redpillers, SJWs, tubmlrtriggerers, edgelords, trolls, bodybuilder or whoever else. You also see the same pattern reemerging
The problem is that people love their favorite vice more than they love themselves. For a fat person, they love eating and they love the rich foods. For a man who believes himself to be a rake, the challenge of the unreachable women is more than he can resist. For the slothful, it is too often that they love comfort.
To truly be able to shame someone, you have to get at the why of what they are doing and then you can only hope they will turn against their vice enough to change.
Christian Weston Chandler (www.sonichu.com) may be an extreme case, but he is hardly the only one. He is an excellent example of what not to be.
Obviously you’re a troll who didn’t read the article. You can’t shame someone who is not ashamed of his choices.
And you’re obviously not a Christian. If you were you would know Jesus never advocated celibacy. He said those who were built for it would do it but the rest of us were suppose to marry.
Or have you never heard of the book of Genesis?
Interesting and accurate in a lot of ways I guess…shaming as a tool is something that can and should be used by society for certain behaviors. It can help control a problem neighbor who is polluting your land by association or a problem family member who is unkind or careless with other family members. It’s an overused tool that only has effecacy if one values the oppinion of the shame-thrower though. In a society which uses shame to get women and men to buy certain products to fit in with their culture only tools respond to shaming. In an environment in which shaming is a tool in a game that everyone gets sucked into,the act has little value to people of value. It’s a great tool to use on the ignorant and those w/o character.
I feel like we’re reinventing the wheel here. We’re discussing shit on here that’s been discussed already thousands of years ago and resolved into timeless wisdom.
I would love to see articles asking readers to read certain classics, study mythology, study mythical heroes and legendary military commanders and kings.
Write it, bro. Help out your fellow man.
I’m already busy out the ass these days :/
“I’m already busy out the ass these days :/”
I don’t remember ever hearing Apollo or Zeus say those words hahah just fuckin with you, but I think that’d be a great article for this site. When I wrote the Feminist Dystopia story ROK got back to me the next day, and they don’t own your article like other sites.
Zeus: “Bitch I ain’t got time. I’ve got a universe to maintain.” :p
“He who can redpill should redpill.” -/pol/
In other news, this is pretty interesting. Roosh has redpilled his way through hedonism into spirituality:
http://voxday.blogspot.COM/2015/06/brainstorm-with-roosh.html
ROK does seem to be taking a different turn.
Then this site would lose traffic/revenue. Why would they do that? Why would I read a website when I’m immersed in Plato’s works? Sites like this, despite their intentions, are always selling themselves. They’ll either pretend to have an original viewpoint, or be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Discussions that people like you and I have about topics are far more enlightening than most of what I’ll read online all day.
It’s also probably because we’ve lost a lot of Wisdom, not just Western wisdom, but wisdom from around the world, and we’re just rehashing things that have been already said and done. It’s like we’ve forgotten how to be men and women have forgotten how to be women.
We’re living in some weird times.
Commenters like you and Smug have sent me down a rabbit hole of philosophy and intellectualism from the articles I had published on TC to the discussions themselves, and my world view has been turned on its head in a good way. But I disagree and think an article on mythology and ancient wisdom would fare quite well on ROK.
The site’s been oversaturated with blaming women and articles on ‘game’, which were a good start, but the one’s they’ve published on the Frankfurt School and philosophers like Julius Evola were widely considered to be some of the most important ones, so I think a large part of their readership craves something more, be it philosophical, spiritual, etc.
I mean, look at this piece of shit article we’re commenting on now, wherein the writer basically says “Shame people and if they don’t like it it’s their fault, haters gonna hate!” A much more meaningful piece would cite Aristotle’s ethics, but we need someone to translate it and apply it to modernity.
(By the way, I highly recommend G.K. Chesterton’s ‘Orthodoxy’ for some more mental stimulation, it’s currently blowing my mind.)
Now there’s an idea.
Great freakin’ article. I like Forney for his brutal truth.
But it is an oversimplification, and leaves out some really important stuff..
Like most virtuous acts, there is good shaming and bad shaming. Every virtue rests between two potential vices – Aristotle (the mean)
SJWs cry foul when they are shamed (with good shame as Matt points out), but are the absolute foulest purveyors of bad shame, e.g. Racism, Homophobia, Dating out of age group, etc…
Manosphere shame has it’s vices as well.. Yes, shame to light a fire under some man’s butt, shame to promote action and personal change.. Do not shame for genetic inferiority.. this is where positivity does a better job. Hope is as important as shame…
And most importantly, repetitive, indoctrinated shaming of the youth is the root of all evil. The ‘everyone gets a trophy’ scourge is not fixed with shame. It is fixed with simply not giving everyone a trophy, but encouraging them to try harder, and making sure they know it is within them, and no one else, to do so.
Gen X (my g..g..generation) experienced mass shaming by the media, the government, and our elders as a form of indoctrination. Each subsequent generation has experienced this to a greater degree (with different/varying subjects of shame). This is bad.. it makes for timid, non-risk takers, and very low self esteem. There is a balance achieved with proper doses of (good) shame, and positivity/encouragement.
A generalization about Gen X – Advances in media reach and the advent of marketeering as HUGE business led to the mass shaming paradigm. Gen X = non-productive rebelliousness and elevated angst (generally).. a result of being subconsciously shamed for the shitty status quo of the world which they had no hand in, and was created by previous generations. They were told they sucked, and they sucked.. for the most part, although many great thinkers and pioneers also came from X. This was also the last of the properly educated, critical-thinking generation (Exceptions apply as always)
A generalization about Millennials – confused, withdrawn, non-productiveness, escaping into faux realities. Mass shaming of Gen X PLUS introduction to other (bad) shaming including racism and white guilt, beginnings of homophobia shaming, and of course the kicker we’re all aware of.. Single motherhood mass-proliferation resulting in male-shaming in general from the very people who are supposed to buffer the young from the bullshit, their parent(s). But very POLITE, these youngsters, giving the appearance of high intelligence.
And the latest Gen? – Full blown PC shaming.. guilt from birth. I daresay these kids are so scared to assert themselves on any matter, that they may be the best slaves to ever live, in the vein of Alduous Huxley’s Ultimate Revolution. Again, they present extremely well, and seem very polite and capable because they are so afraid to fuck up and be shamed.. They are ultra-conformists. My sons are cool kids, but they are not having anywhere NEAR the amount of fun I did at their age, if you catch my drift.
ALL THESE TYPES OF YOUTH SHAMING are bad, bad, bad, bad. Shaming as a useful and righteous tool to provoke self-improvement should start at zero and steadily increase as necessary as one matures, to then taper off and cease at some point when the person is either a lost cause, or simply has the worst of fortune/genetics/the hand they’s dealt. My 2c
Really, who let this guy to post in ROK ? Now it seems like anybody who can write “betas”, “red pill” and “sjw” is a candidate to make a contribution to the site. ( If you feel the shame about this arguments, it’s because you deserve it )
So this means that you think Davis Aurini is a degenerate for stealing another man´s wife Forney?
Wow nice article by Fourney, the bitch tits extraordinaire.
You can write some pretty contradictory articles, considering your own life.
Men shaming men. . .I don’t see it. You can call someone out on something, but trying to “shame” a man is acting like a teen-age girl, and seems pretty faggy to me. Men confront, advise, and stand-up. They don’t try to back-door anyone into behavior or thinking.
He’s right in that you can’t be shamed over something that’s not true and that you’re not responsible for. The whole “shaming” thing in mgtow and MRA comes from discussion about how women use shaming methods against men. The problem there is that women do it understanding that society has brainwashed men against themselves. Women use it to force men’s emotions against themselves. But that only works with beta males, white knights, and pussies. Men in the Men’s Right’s Movement, mgtow, etc. are pretty much above (or, I would hope) being manipulated by shaming because they’re aware of the red pill/blue pill concept. On the other hand, you can shame a woman when she’s fat and has the “better than God” attitude about herself, thinking that men are lucky to have her when she’s obese from greedily stuffing her face with candy all day. That’s kinda the difference.
Matt should probably follow Roosh’s lead and take a summer hiatus…and maybe fall if he continues to post crap like this.
So in a sense, thanks to MGTOWs, its more pussy for the rest of us? Maybe you have a point.
Btw, how long have you been named WTW? I think I have seen you on boards or maybe even PC Multiplayer before.
Has that been the response? I missed it then. How can people feel bothered that they’re being shamed when they feel the person attempting to do the shamming is a joke?
It is every Man’s right to shame every feminist, mangina and white knight that tries to shame masculinity and the patriarchy standard that helped set the standard for civilization these SJ cunts all enjoy.
When you have a society that considers this type of female “empowered” simply for holding a fish (and not actually catching it) it tends to be a metaphor for just how twisted things have gotten in what passes for reality.
https://youtu.be/oGJjGOjPc4k
You’re every bit as loathsome as the feminists you despise.
In the eyes of the execrable and anorchous, maybe.
I can live with that 🙂
No, objectively speaking
You’re not objective so your point there is pointless.
Yeah, sure…keep telling yourself that.
Running out of gas, troll?
Holy shit! What a fucking loser you are! You’re actually so attention starved that you wrote me to see why I never commented again! It’s because I don’t fucking care about you and what you have to say, asshole. You mean as much to me as every fuckface on planet earth: Nothing.
Not at all, i wrote you because you wrote to me first.
You saw my remarks and thought it would be nice to make someone like me aware of someone like you. You wanted some focused attention and you got it. You act no different than your average female in doing so but i believe in addressing remarks sent my way out of courtesy 🙂
If you really aren’t interested about what i have to say you shouldn’t have responded to me. Now that you’ve had your fill of attention you want to act as if i was stalking you? lol.
You picked the perfect name for yourself….you are a fool. You were foolish to start bullshit with me and you’re even more foolish for thinking you can spin this on me as if i wrote to you with bullshit first.
Go shave that cunt between your legs because it’s quite obvious there is nothing in that pelvic area to define you as male 😀
Again, fuckboy, I was ignoring you and you wrote me again to elicit a response like a chick who gets anxious when you don’t text her back fast enough. You weren’t worth another response do I dropped it, but you got insecure like a little girl. Now go shave your twat, pissbaby.
And I was foolish to start with you? Bwahahahahahaha! Dude, you’re some nobody manosphere jerk off. You’re about as inconsequential to me as yesterday’s shit. Now get over you’re insecurity and spare me and the rest of the world your macho fiction.
Again douchebag, you responded to me and i responded in turn.
And having to use my own words against me only shows how little in the way of imagination you actually have.
I would say “go fuck yourself” but you’d need an actual dick for that. Instead i’ll just say “go finger yourself” since it’s obvious again you have no male reproductive organs whatsoever 🙂
Oh the hypocrisy! You write to me and have the nerve to say i’m “inconsequential?” Why the hell did you even attack me to begin with?
Why did you write to me with your pathetic pedestrian “you’re as loathsome as…” remark?
What’s the matter…you can dish it out but you can’t take it?
Silly boy. Go shave your minge and come back when you’ve grown some balls. This site has enough mangina trolls as it is.
I tried shaming my fatass brother in the past.
It didnt work.
Who is this douchebag? What a load of conformist horseshit by a guy who writes guides to “making money” on the Internet. Congrats! You’re no different than the type of person selling get rich quick schemes via real estate on late night tv twenty years ago.
FAP FAP OH GOD HENTAI GIRLS SO MUCH BETTER THAN REAL ONES =).
If you say so.
Some shaming tactics are just that, tactics. I only accept shaming from someone I respect, otherwise, I just give it back. I did that with a boss once- after his repeat attempts at silencing me. Needless to say it wigged him out even more. Then I refused to answer a trick question in the affirmative or in the negative. I still kept my job- his hands were pretty much tied by the bureaucracy.
I agree with the article, but wish it clarified between shame, which is natural and guilt, which is a tool feminists regularly use and which is a form of sloth.
To shame someone for not being what they were meant to be is one thing, to make someone feel guilty for their existence by implying that they are intrinsically an “oppressor” is something else.
…wrote the fat guy lmfao
I agree shaming is needed… and guys need to honor “guy code”. We wouldn’t have to deal with bullshit from women if we would all stick together and not allow them to get away with some of the crap they pull. Unfortunately, guys are so eager to get in line and bang them, no matter what they may have done to previous guys, they are never held accountable for their actions.
I think it’s perfectly ok to live in your parents basement if you don’t plan on having family and just want to save money. Perfectly reasonal and rational behaviour. But if you do this and you believe in this you won’t be shamed by remarks about ‘living in the basement’. Shame is indicator that your behaviour is not in tact with your mind.
More than that I guess it would be great for society and the economy if most of the man would live in their parents basement when basement is enough instead of going deep in debt and consume enormous amounts of electricity and other resources.
I mentioned Forney’s tits on a comment in THIS article and my disqus account was banned. What the fuck man?
I guess shame forces an internal dialoge, an examination of the accusations directed at you, and ultimately an examination of your values.
‘Why am I offended by it? Do I seriously believe what this person is saying? Is it because it’s true or because I’m being sensitive?’
If it’s true then you’ve identified the problem and you can take steps to fix it. If the accusations are false then laugh at the haters while they waste their breath.
Ok. Then Roosh looks like a total slob.
In the words of the great Fat Amy, “You’re no panty dropper yourself.”
asshole