The following article was sponsored by Island Lion Herbals
We all know that in 2015, lifting weights is no longer optional. A man of value exhibits discipline in his diet, exercise regimen, and overall appearance. All of us would be smart to take full advantage of any edge that can help us get and stay lean, and maintain consistency in the gym (read: minimize missed workouts). This is especially true for natural lifters who want to maximize their genetic potential before (or perhaps instead of) exploring AAS options. Can kratom help with muscle soreness, water retention, and appetite suppression?
Search the internet and you will find thousands of anecdotal accounts of kratom as a powerful tool for relieving pain, suppressing anxiety, treating insomnia, and as a potent aphrodisiac. Even with its recent explosion in popularity in the United States and other western countries, many naysayers still doubt kratom’s medicinal value.
The fact that the FDA has not explicitly approved it for human consumption doesn’t help that reputation, and it’s still considered by many to be nothing more than a “drug” used for a “legal high.” Red pill-aware men know that the FDA’s approval (or lack thereof) means nothing in and of itself; chances are, you take at least one weightlifting supplement that isn’t FDA-approved, either. GNC is full of them.
What does science say about kratom? Are there any published, peer-reviewed studies that show it DOES have legitimate medical uses, and more importantly—do any of them aid in physical fitness?
The answer is a resounding YES.
Here are a few studies in the past 30 years that show kratom to be quite effective as a treatment for joint pain (e.g. “lifter’s shoulder”), muscle soreness, as well as an aid in weight loss and preventing water retention.
1. “Ethnopharmacology of Kratom and the Mitragyna Alkaloids” (1988)
ABSTRACT: An investigation into the pharmacology of kratom.
SOURCE: Journal of Ethnopharmacology, 23 (1988), pages 115-119, Elsevier Scientific Publishers, Ireland
SUMMARY: This study aimed to describe kratom in detail, including its most common alkaloids. It concluded that “published experimental results were positive for use as an analgesic (pain reliever), antitussive (cough suppression), and hypothermic agent in animals.” The study also pointed out that kratom may be a natural substitute for methadone in treating opiate addiction.
2. “Evaluation of Analgesia Induced by Mitragynine, Morphine, and Paracetamol on Mice” (1998)
ABSTRACT: An investigation to compare the antinocieptive activity of morphine and paracetamol to that of mitragynine, a major constituent of fresh leaves of Mitragyna speciosa. All substances were administered to mice orally.
SOURCE: Phytochemistry, Volume 25, Issue 12, 1986, Pages 2910-2912
SUMMARY: All three substances produced significant analgesia (pain reliever) when tested. The researchers concluded that mitragynine may be a potential new analgesic that requires further study.
3. “Acute and long-term effects of alkaloid extract of Mitragyna speciosa on food and water intake and body weight in rats” (2004)
ABSTRACT: Acute administration of Mitragyna speciosa extract significantly resulted in dose-dependent decreases in food and water intakes (P < 0.05) in rats. Prolonged suppressing effects were observed following administration of the MS extract for 60 consecutive days. Moreover, the long-term administration also significantly suppressed weight gain.
SOURCE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16781828
SUMMARY: The purpose of this study was to find the long-term effects of the isolated Mitragyna speciosa alkaloid in kratom. The study found that water intake and retention of rats was reduced, and there was also a suppression in weight gain. That points to the possibility of kratom being a powerful tool in fighting obesity.
4. “Pharmacological Studies on 7-Hydroxymitragynine, Isolated from the Thai Herbal Medicine Mitragyna speciosa: Discovery of an Orally Active Opioid Analgesic” (2006)
ABSTRACT: Substances derived from natural products have been utilized since the beginning of time for various medical purposes including the treatment of pain. Opium, for example, has been mentioned in the earliest historical records, some 7000 years ago. In fact, research in the area of pain management and drug addiction originally focused on natural products exclusively. Our research group has studied uniquely structured, nitrogen-containing compounds isolated from the traditional Thai herb Mitragyna speciosa. We have been investigating the pharmacological properties of this herb, individual components of its extracts, and structurally related compounds since the 1980s.
SOURCE: http://mitizane.ll.chiba-u.jp/metadb/up/assist1/Y2006-17.pdf
SUMMARY: The purpose of this study was to determine kratom’s medical potential as an orally-active pain reliever.
5. “Total Synthesis of (-)-Mitragynine and Analogues” (2012)
ABSTRACT: Besides use as a drug, the plant has found application in medicine in the treatment of coughing, diarrhea, muscle pain and hypertension. Interestingly, mitragynine has a stronger analgesic effect than morphine, so that it has been suggested as a useful compound in the treatment of opiate addiction in replacement therapy. About the biological activity of paynantheine and speciogynine there are very little studies reported.
SOURCE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2526544/
SUMMARY: The purpose of this medical study was to demonstrate the far-reaching possibilities for kratom’s medicinal value and properties. This study concluded that there IS medical potential for kratom, including its use as a powerful analgesic as well as an aid in opiate addiction treatment.
Conclusion
If you lift weights (and you should), anything that can help you maintain intensity and focus is worth checking out. Clearly, the research shows the myriad of benefits kratom can provide and that there is much more to it than meets the eye.
Island Lion Herbals is currently having a sale on ALL kratom strains at our online store – $9.99 an ounce, and as usual, ROK readers get an additional discount.
Use coupon code ROK15 for 15% off your entire order today at Island Lion Herbals!
Advertise Your Site Or Product On Return Of Kings
A slightly better class of upsell article. At least this has info other than “Stop being a pussy and buy my shit!”
My order just arrived today – I saw the sale on Monday. Included a couple 5g samples! All smell quite fresh and grassy. Just tried some red vein bali (about a teaspoon) since it’s late in the day. Will report back with effects in a few.
—
Very pleasant – not unlike a relaxing indica, but less “trippy.” Reminds me a lot of kava – great stuff.
Looking forward to trying the more stimulating strains during the day sometime.
The White Maeng Da is very popular for mornings. Also a teaspoon is a very small amount to burn.
Is tolerance an issue? If I became tolerant to say “Green Malay” would I also be tolerant to White Maeng Da? Thanks.
Tolerance tends to be specific to a strain; if you rotate your strains, tolerance shouldnt be an issue.
Sound advice, thank you.
Does this apply to dependance also?
These guys are paid to advertise the product to you in the comments. Don’t be so easy.
Don’t make assumptions. I draw my conclusions from more than just one source. And just because he’s selling a product doesn’t mean he is lying. Besides what would that do to his credibility? Don’t be so cynical.
“and just because he’s selling a product don’t mean he’s lying. Besides what would that do to his credibility”
Do you realise how hilarious this response is…?
Does credibility pay the shareholders Bob?
I can’t stop making assumptions. It’s how I stay alive.
Absolutely not. He paid ME for the product. God forbid a paying customer actually…*gasp
*…likes the product and says so.
Yes. All reports of dependence say that it is very similar to coffee (since they are in the same genetic family, Rubenacea). As such, the withdrawal symptoms are just as mild as those for coffee. There has never been a reported case of dependence to the point of addiction.
Bottom line: If you can stop drinking coffee, you can stop burning kratom.
the ENTIRE REASON I included scientific studies is to PROVE it works. Somehow you missed that crucial detail. Again, skepticism is healthy, HENCE WHY I POSTED SCIENTIFIC STUDIES to show it works. The FDA would have you believe it doesn’t, kinda like creatine, AAS, and anything else the US government doesn’t want you to use. How many people claim running game doesn’t work, even though science and your own eyes prove that it does?
I believe you again because your not here to make a profit?
As a herb man, why don’t you tell us a bit about marijuana?
It’s one of the most fascinating herbs with profound health implications.
But you don’t know shit about that do you?
I am a card-holding medical marijuana patient in two states for 7 years. So yes I do. Science proves that has a host of benefits too.
You came on ROK because it’s cheaper credentials that the FDA. This is not rocket science. Where else have you advertised?
I have worked in the holistic health, diet and strength game for many years. I have seen much ‘science’ to back all manner of things up.
Anyone who tries to legitimise something by focussing on the scientific studies is full of shit. We’ve seen it all before.
There are far more sound ways to legitimise something that do not emanate from a world that is a total mystery to most people and notoriously corrupt.
I suppose you think organic food is garbage?
But scientific studies prove it is!
Eggs bad for the heart? But science!
Personal anecdotes (see google) say it works. You don’t believe it. Science (see this article) says it works. you don’t believe it. Paying customers (See above) say it works. You don’t believe it. The fact that YOU still don’t think it works is a personal issue for you. Have a great day.
I never said it don’t ‘work’.
My point has been that it’s inferior and not worth spending money on.
And that supplements that advertise on ROK generally do so because they know it’s a naive and easily manipulated audience of recovering Betas?
What is a superior pain reliever, in your opinion, then?
Alos, I’m fairly certain you just insulted all of ROK’s readers.
Properly programmed strength training (this has the added benefit of getting you in shape and strong),
Magnesium Chloride in various forms, (you probably badly need this anyway)
Properly programmed rehabilitation,
A healthy gut, (via a healthy diet)
Plenty of good sleep – marijuana induced melatonin spikes really help here,
Acupuncture,
Soft tissue work,
Rest.
All manner of other options – friends within the police get some pills that work wonders.
BTW most people that use steroids have no scientific understanding and get AMAIZING results.
By your own rationale, anyone selling:
-Gym memberships (strength training)
-Magnesium Chloride
-healthy food
-pillows, beds, or sheets (Plenty of good sleep)
-marijuana
-Acupuncture
-massage (Soft tissue work)
…is a liar because they are making a profit.
Kratom is no different than any of these products. It legitimately works, has been used for hundreds of years in Asia, and has both anecdotal and scientific backing.
Your problem doesn’t seem to be with kratom. It seems to be with capitalism.
Still with this?
I’ve not at any point protested the making of profits, capitalism or – before you say it – equal rights for all.
I’ve made the very obvious point of not believing the guy trying to sell you the product.
I’ve pointed out how stupid it is to ask someone if their product is good and expect a non biased response – all the more so when they just broke the bank to advertise it.
Your trying to charicature me into some anti freedom capitalism hating lunatic.
You got answers for the evolution debacle? Or does the cognitive dissonance hurt too much to even think about it?
Opium has been used in Asia for centuries. Whats your point guy?
If you’d like a debate on philosophy, this is not the arena for it. Send me a private message for that. This article is to discuss the benefits of kratom, an herb you have NEVER USED and therefore have no leg to stand on. If your entire argument is “don’t believe the guy selling the product,” then your logic would suggest that these EXACT WORDS coming out of the mouth of someone who ISN’T A KRATOM VENDOR would be somehow more legitimate. Do these scientific studies and anecdotal accounts become magically more legitimate if someone else says them? Would you like me to have a non-kratom vendor tell you these same words and show you these same studies? That’s ridiculous to the point of being funny.
So far your argument has been “nuh-uh”.
If you want a debate, email me.
Thanks but I’m not attempting to make a pen pal.
I commented on your advert. You engaged me.
You failed to back your claims, opened up numerous channels of debate, made all manner of implications regarding my comments insinuating some anti-capitalist bias on my behalf.
You fell back on science. I pointed out it’s flaws (knowing full well you have never even challenged your own theories),
You evaded backing up your arrogant response regarding evolution,
Now you want me to email you?
You can’t hide behind that dude.
You believe evolution why? This is the foundation of your science argument and you haven’t convinced us of it.
I gotta go, I have orders to fill. Have a wonderful day.
Cheers.
It’s great that you have orders to fill.
I really mean that.
What’s hilarious is your ignorance. I’m not sure why you think a hardworking business man needs to lie to you in order to sell his product. Perhaps that’s how you conduct yourself in business but not everyone is a fraudster or a conman.
As it happens I know a fair bit about this product and I will verify his responses as am I sure he will expect. But no businessman stays in business for long by lying to his customers. If you think so perhaps you should move to a Communist country.
OK business 101 – you got a great product? No need to be a ‘hard working business man’. People want your product. Do you go to a Bentley showroom and ask them to convince you to buy the Bentley or do you go to a Bentley showroom to BUY a Bentley because an awesome product sells itself?
The reason your in the Bentley showroom and not the Ford showroom is because the Bentley is such an awesome product you will never see an advert for one. Ford however advertise on a massive scale. My point has always been that the product is an inferior product – you made up the idea that I said it was something else.
So hard working business men always MUST deceive in some sense by definition of being hard working.
This is a glimpse into the law of attraction BTW.
I too know a fair bit about this product – I know a fair bit about superior products also, but I do not think for one second that I know a bit about this product due to this advert posing as science.
Why advertise on ROK? (Because the audience is young, gullible, insecure and identifiably male?)
Because it’s a respected spring board for legitimate workout supplements?
If you have a legitimate product to sell, why hide away from your biggest and most obvious market – elite athletes/coaches? (because they will laugh in your face and only endorse your product without ridicule if you pay them HANDSOMELY)
Your full of assumptions in isolation of some wider knowledge and understanding understanding.
“No business man stays in business for long by lying to his customers” – are you for real?
You can’t think about a single case where people have been deceived out of money by a lying business man?
I think you just insulted all of ROK’s readers again.
FYI, I am actually currently working with the one of the largest pain management centers in the United States, which handles patients in physical therapy and sports injuries for semi-pro and pro athletes.
The head doctor is interested in exploring kratom for use in his clinics for improved patient quality of life. We are also discussing further clinical trials on some of his patients.
The fact that I also advertise to ROK readers, who are demographically likely to work out and are also open-minded enough to try supplements that can help them, does not make me a thief, liar, or conman.
It makes me a businessman targeting a proven target market for a product they might not have heard of that can legitimately help them.
The only one who seems to have an issue with that is you.Your argument seems to go beyond skepticism and into blatant automatic distrust of anyone selling anything, despite any evidence to the contrary.
Yes, SOME businessmen are conmen. Not all. Some men are murderers, not all. Some men are rapists, not all. Some men are thieves, not all.
Some businesses advertise to stir up more business. Not all of them back their products with scientific studies. I do.
Think about that for a moment.
Would that large pain management centre (you made that up didn’t you?) be looking for another product to add to their catalogue in order to SELL?
People in pain can be mighty desperate…
I work with pro athletes too BTW. If your pro athletes are in pain, your doing something wrong. Don’t try and cover it up with bolox. You gotta treat the root. I can help you with that if you can afford my rates…?
Are you really stupid enough to tell us that a ‘large pain management centre’ (I still laugh every time I think about that!) is looking into the use of a herb not approved by the FDA?
I would LOVE to know who your talking about – you may have just got them sued!
Come on, name them or I’m calling BS.
Pro athletes tend to be in pain. Sports injuries are incredibly common. A lot of pro athletes are on a huge list of prescription painkillers, some to the point of addiction. Anyone that works with pro athletes should know that. A doctor trying to get them off of pain pills and using a non-addictive herb that helps their quality of life should be applauded. By your rationale, anyone making a profit on anything or selling anything, ever, is a crook. That’s…odd.
I’m not sure what you are suggesting, but your troll game is strong.
Troll Game recognized.
I won’t be goaded into naming names for a potential business deal with a large partner that isn’t complete yet , for the sake of appeasing one troll in an ROK comments section—who won’t be convinced no matter what I say, prove, or show and will call any and all proof I offer fake. Feel free to call BS all you want. Science, anecdotes, hundreds of years of people using it in Asia, and now doctors…disagree with you.
Since you are such a fan of marijuana, you know that the way marijuana has progressed from illegal drug to medically accepted in half of the United States is through…wait for it…scientific studies and….clinical testing with doctors and patients.
Thanks but no thanks. Have a wonderful day, I have more orders to fill.
Does he know that caffeine is a pain suppressant?
You should let him know…
OY BOB – CAFFEINE IS A PAIN SUPPRESSANT!
hold on a minute – withdrawal symptoms! WTF!
Yes, withdrawal symptoms. Much like caffeine has withdrawal symptoms. This is a well-documented scientific fact. Caffeine is in most pre-workouts on the market, and also in….y’know….coffee.
Yeah pro athletes tend to be on a lot of other stuff as well…
Why sell them a product not approved by the FDA that has victims suffering withdrawal symptoms and Endocrine disruption?
Huh Herbs?
WTF is ‘troll game’? Is that from the scientists?
And both are garbage that just speed up the rate at which your cells die and disrupt digestive function.
Most workout formulas are garbage marketed to morons. I’m yet to find one that does not fit this description or marketing strategy.
Creatine works though…
…first time round at least.
ok.
ok.
Yah – and you don’t have them.
So why sell it to young queens with a daddy complex on ROK?
ah finally you concede that I am right.
This feels so good!
Hence why I am working on setting them up. And I do “have them”—there are 5 referenced IN THIS ARTICLE. Read the studies yourself and find the holes in them, if you’d like. That’s why they are linked.
And I think you just insulted ROK’s readers AGAIN.
Troll game is on fleek, dude.
ok.
Then why no FDA approval? You can’t win.
Fleek must be a metro sexual slang yes?
Yeah real men don’t care for being offended by E Trolls.
Unreal men can go knob themselves in the stinkin-orifice.
ok has a capital O.
Learn grammars.
LOL. 100% of products currently approved by the FDA at one point were NOT approved by the FDA. Including both creatine (which was approved only after clinical trials, yet was available and SOLD AT A PROFIT before and after it was approved) and marijuana (which is in the process of lots of clinical trials to move it off of Schedule 1 as a legitimate medical product, also SOLD AT A PROFIT).
If trolls had a king, it would be you.
ok.
Does anyone know if the dancing troll smiley from the RVF is available here?
Troll on, my brother.
Wow I’m sold. Sign me up for a shipment.
Marijuana is sold at a profit because it’s worth more than gold pound for pound and grows on trees. Criminals clocked this before the geniuses in government.
Now those retards in government think they can tap in to a massive tax base – the public will cotton on pretty soon though I suspect and start growing their own. Legalisation of Marijuana will not happen unless seeds can be patented.
Leave marijuana illegal and let sick people deal with drug overlords.
So your not approved by the FDA, but one day you sure hope you will be right?
The FDA won’t approve it because its bogus. FACT.
ok.
ok has a capital O.
Lurn some grammars.
ok.
I like this new tactic.
Ostriches first pioneered it.
okay.
Oak hay.
ok
ok.
Dude did you pay ROK for this?
It’s a spectacular fall from grace…
Obviously I’ve ruffled some feathers (the capital letters took some effort clearly so you must be fuming).
This does not reflect well on Island Lion Herbals.
I mean the above makes me think that a teenager is in charge over there…
Ps, what happened to all the science dude ha ha!
What you call a “spectacular fall from grace”, I call “sales up considerably since you started trolling”.
So please, by all means keep it up.
When you don’t sell anything, then you sell seven units, profits go up 700%.
I run my own business too. But unfortunately this kind of jiggery pokery doesn’t sit well with the Board…
ok.
So I simultaneously “don’t sell anything” and also have enough money to buy ads, pay for scientific studies (some of which happened when I was 6 years old), and “pay for people to endorse the product in the comments section”?
Nice maths, bruv.
You looking for more sales?
Not from you, no.
‘Ere ‘ave some more on The Willyb0ne.
Bob’s your uncle.
Reached eight sales yet…?…we’ll get there son…
No, please keep trolling though, so I can make more sales. PLEASE.
There is a deeper more important lesson for you here though – are you going to actually look into my claims about evolution and how un-scientific this theory actually is or are you going to keep your head in the ground whilst claiming to be a man of science?
Your ideas, when viewed from a legitimately scientific platform, that works off of the basis of mathematical laws and factor in old school common sense may crumble away spectacularly. You will discover the legion of men whom in the name of science have exposed this theory that all humans started out when the rain hit the rocks forming a cosmic soup for what it is – baseless fraudulent science propped up with an absurd degree of faith and social manipulation.
This is funded by your tax.
Will you confront this in the name of Science and truth?
You are undermining your position as a man of science by engaging me for the sake of hits and sales whilst trying to divert from actually backing up your arrogant stance on this theory of evolution you know nothing about.
Good for you if you make a bit of cash – I’ve made a lot of money from this industry legitimately whilst convincing people with solid science and a truly scientific approach to research. But are you a snake oil sale man first or a man of science first?
Are these truths a bit too red-pill for you?
ok.
Illy, Can you post a picture and a review on FB/twitter/here? The packaging is awesome, I take great pride in it.
Illy works for the advert dude. Come on.
No he doesn’t—I am the one and only employee. He is a paying customer, I’m looking at his order as we speak.
Oh right I believe you.
You wouldn’t bullshit to sell a product now would you?
But you would pay to advertise it..something don’t add up here…
LOL. I would post Illy’s receipt if he would allow it. You’d probably claim it was photoshopped. He is a paying customer, I assure you. Believe what you want.
More importantly, they don’t disguise an informercial as an article. The disclaimer is right at the top.
It just justifies not being FDA approved by saying most of the stuff in GNC is not either – yeah most of the stuff in GNC is crap.
Does anyone remember when GNC stopped selling EAS supplements when they realised after about 20 years that it was laced with arsenic?
Fucking snake oil sales pitch.
I think this is an excellent example of advertising a dietary/medicinal product. Throw at me studies and references all day, for I care not about anecdotal evidence. In other words, provide me the information to come to my own conclusions – or don’t – and in doing so you prove your worth as a salesman to me.
I’m always curious why appetite suppression is so hard.
I think a lot of guys are sugar addicts. But in trying to get off sugar, they go for “other things” or “regular food” that has… wait for it…. high fructose in it.
Then they sit there, “not eating sugar”, but the insidious fructose and high fructose still in their diet, they sit there and crave sugar.
Then the artificial sweeteners mess with the brain. Uh, guys.. if you are using artificial sweeteners, you are not a man.
Once you route out sugar and those derivatives, high fructose being even worse than sugar, from your diet, you no longer get cravings. I can go for days before feeling hunger. Sometimes I have to force myself to eat or make a strict schedule of it because I can go long enough to start getting weak.
(this is why, when trying to get things done as a group, that one or two people who sit there refusing to do what needs to get done saying “I gotta eat” will be ejected from whatever vehicle we are using and left on a beach or side of the road)
This why I ask people, are you in control of your body or is your body in control of you. Just my 2c
Well said. Arguably, you should listen to your body but your body is subordinate to you. Once you have cured your body of its addiction, the messages it sends you should be good ones. Teach your body to be intelligent and it will serve you well.
Except fructose isn’t bad.
the author of the book ‘the sugar fix,’ argues otherwise. check it out!
The author of the book recommends sugar alternatives such as Aspartame which is a known cancer causer and far worse than anything sugar could ever cause. The book has some information but there’s a lot of bullshit, and recommending Splenda and Aspartame shows how incompetent the author is.
couldn’t disagree more on your assessment of the book or its author, but i agree with you that artificial sweeteners are no good.
There are plenty of articles refuting any toxic and cancerous effects from Aspartame.
I not sure who to believe.
“There are plenty of articles refuting any toxic and cancerous effects from Aspartame.”
Believe your own body. I remember one day I was doing a blackberry bush clearing job in the dead of summer. I worked for hours. The house I was working at only had diet soda which I NEVER touch. But it was one of the most thirsty moments of my life. I downed one and felt more or less quenched. Worked some more and couldn’t resist another one. About thirty minutes after that it felt like a had just gone through Chemo or something extremely heavy at the cellular level. That stuff is straight toxin.
True, but when you find an apple tree you don’t reject it because some of the fruit is rotten.
Answer this simple question: do you need it? If the answer is “no”, then don’t eat it.
Believe the articles and research not paid for by Donald Rumsfeld – the man who invented aspartame.
Ok you’ve obviously been misled.
The main idea of the book: don’t eat refined sugars and bullshit fructose from processed foods. That’s all you need to know. All the recipes in it have a lot of bullshit, and recommending aspartame in and of itself shows a HUGE amount of ignorance and lack of care for the readers. There’s MANY other books to get on food that actually have way more good than that.
Yeah I pretty much agree although I rarely read a book where I agree with everything the author says.
No not misled. I read and decide for myself.
Would you care to provide me with the link to the definitive literature which led you, I mean, where you concluded aspartame is toxic and cancerous. Also state why your literature is definitive.
Follow the studies done by the soda company as they’re the most reliable of course.
Fructose in its natural state is fine. But isolated from fruit, refined and served to you in a highly concentrated and high volume form, (such as a soda) it is poison.
This man knows his stuff.
I find it hard to eat myself. But I have to force myself to eat at least 6 meals a day, to gain a slight amount of muscle from my workouts.
I was up to around 210 lbs mostly muscle back when I was hitting the weights but I stopped and moved for more well rounded exercise because having to eat all of the time was a real bother. I was in the military then.
The worst part was the fatigue that would come sooner when I could not constantly eat. So when I was not all stuffed and bloated from eating, I was tired. Now I’m around 170 which is what I weighed when I was 15 and hitting the weights back then, over 30 years ago.
So you lost 40 lbs of muscle? Are you much weaker than your soldiering days? I’m around 165, looking to reach 170 at least. Slow and steady. If I didn’t eat all these meals I’d lose at least 10-15 pounds and feel like a weakling.
Because my “foundation” was in powerlifting, I did not lose strength right away. I did as I got older but around 2005 I quit sugar and high fructose and not only did I get lean, I got strong again.
I have not tried in a while but it’s likely I won’t be benching what I used to, but occasionally when I get access to a weight room or someone needs to be trained I found each time that muscle memory is a reality and I can get back up to the old limits in a matter of weeks.
I don’t mind losing 40 lbs of muscle (consider percentages, that’s probably not all muscle) and I don’t have a need to bench 340 lbs. Heck I’m old enough to figure out ways to not have to exert myself that much when something heavy needs to be moved.
Lord Baron,
Are you doing the big five barbell lifts?
-Squat
-Deadlift
-Standing Press
-Bench
-Power Clean
Add in pullups for sure and possibly rows and romanian deadlifts.
You’re probably doing at least some of those, but you need to go ‘barbell only’ and do low reps. Record your lifts and just get stronger. The bulk will come because it has to if you’re getting stronger. If you can eat six times a day then the barbell lifts will get you growing. If you’re just trying to do bodybuilding touch-up exercises like lat. raises, tricep extension, flyes etc and eat a lot then you’re just going to hate it and maybe go crazy.
There are a lot of good points in there. Especially the one about how just because you gain 40 pounds through lifting, it won’t necessarily be all muscle. Often it’s probably 50/50. So a bulky lifter who looks good just threw 20 pounds of lard onto his system along with some cool looking lumps of meat on his shoulders. Guys in their 20’s and 30’s can play the game of adding lumps of meat to their bodies here and there, but post 40, it’s probably better to lighten up. Even if you did add 40 pounds of ‘pure muscle’ so what? That’s still 40 extra pounds of flesh that your heart has to accommodate with every single beat. Just because it’s better than 40 pounds of lard doesn’t make it healthier. I’ve always lifted and put pressure on myself to have some size but I’ve recently started to second guess it a bit.
What is your height?
Muscle is over-rated. Chimps don’t have a lot of it but they would easily tear your face off. Ligament and tendon strength is more important for strength as is leverage.
Also count water weight and glycogen stores in those big muscles.
Btw, I doubt that the Spartans had a load of excess muscle either yet they were frighteningly strong and fast.
How do you know they were frighteningly strong and fast?
With their armour, helmets and shield?
Why would soldiers that fought in a phalanx be fast?
And does it matter if when struck with a sword or spear, the striker is strong? Or were blades invented to overcome that?
Genetics, bio-mechanics, evolutionary theory, archeological finds, historical sources so on and so forth.
Basically, they didn’t spend their lives sitting in front of a computer eating krispie kremes and pizza. That kind of slows you down.
I’m sorry, using a load of sciencey words doesn’t rationalise your bromance laced statement that the spartans were far stronger and faster than we are today.
Here are some random concepts in response to prove why this is a homo-eroticaly inspired fanbwoy comment,
If evolution is true then we undoubtedly have improved upon the ancient spartans in the time that has passed… but unfortunately the law of genetic entropy proves the opposite but then that would challenge evolution even if it supported your theory…
We have superior strength training methods,
We have superior understanding of the human organism and it’s metabolism,
Spartans didn’t get the opportunity to use Kratom?
We have PED’s these days,
The average height and weight of an athlete today is way beyond the height and weight of a spartan,
Just because you developed a crush on king leonidas doesn’t mean the spartans were a superior race.
Don’t be sorry. I actually admire your dedication to demonstrating your ignorance. It is interesting how you accuse me of bro-science and yet respond with…. “bro-science”?
“If” my friend? It is established fact. Next you’ll question the shape of the Earth and the Lunar Landings….
I hate to break it to you but strength does not increase in direct proportion to height and weight. If you don’t believe me, go wrestle a chimpanzee.
Please link me to the research you have that provides strong evidence of our superior strength training methods and “understanding”.
I’ll help you out a little bit.
The human organism changes in response to the stresses put upon it. There is no guarantee that the changes will produce a “superior” organism. The outcome could be “worse” depending on the situation. You may have noticed that people get fat when they eat lots of cake. Is this an improvement? These changes cause genetic and epigenetic changes to the human organism. So what you do to your body will affect your future grandchildren. Furthermore, what you do as a child (walking long distances, doing a lot of strenuous labour) will effect your bone density etc. and capacity for hard work as an adult. The Spartans “understood” this and what I said about epigenetic changes. You clearly do not.
If you would like more homo-erotic inspired fanbwoy comments on this topic, from people far more qualified than I, then I suggest you look into Weston A Price and Pottenger’s Cat Study. I also suggest you pick up a book on introductory logic.
Dear Bob, I’ve been studying Weston A Price and Frances Pottenger for many years, along with Getof, Mercola, Chek, Poliquin, Thibeuduaex (not even gonna attempt to spell his name), and any of the others you wish to name – I’ve been in this game for a LONG time.
Please post evidence of Spartans being faster and stronger than us – you were the first to make this ridiculous baseless statement – I already sense your nervousness in your funny attempt at getting me to disprove YOUR ridiculous claims rather than just substantiating them yourself. What are these training methods that the Spartans devised that were superior to the methods we have today inherited from the Former Soviet Block after much research and development of some of the worlds strongest athletes in all weight categories? And how are you aware of them and aware of the fact that it produced stringer specimens? How have you come to accept this – did you watch the development of spartans somehow? Where they keeping records of what they were putting up in the big lifts?
A chimpanzee is stronger than a human due to leverage and muscle fibre composition – I’m not sure what your point is in challenging me to wrestle a chimpanzee – is this something you have done Bob?
I would wholeheartedly agree on your simple point of chimpanzees being vastly stronger than humans – but this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Also – please explain to me how you as the head of a Spartan barracks, might feel that the extra food and resources required to hypertrophy an entire army justify their cost when spent on men that fight in armour, with state of the art weapons who fight in various formations designed to make up for the physical frailties of the human body?
How would you envision your warriors being faster (WTF?) being a worthy investment?
How, without the cocktail of PED’s of the modern era – do you envision keeping the soldiers fighting fit and able to force march for days in full armour and gear, above a certain body weight AND fast twitch dominant?
You may have a homoerotic fantasy of the Spartans ever since the 300 movie stored your loins but that was just a movie (I ask you at what point in history could you find 300 greek men with not a single chest hair between them).
And it may kill your bonner for Leonidas if I point out the fact that A, Spartans were a group of pantheon worshipping Jews of the tribe of Simeon and B, the formation as a concept died out and did not survive to this day. If you explore these statements it may change your perspective.
Regarding evolution, you sound pretty sure – tell me then,
What is evolution in your eyes? Describe the basic premise in your understanding?
Prepare for me to rip you a new one upon your answer… This could be a life changing discussion Bob.
In fact, I’ll make it really easy for you – can you give me one (1) example of evolution producing a new species that has been observed?
Then, tell me how many species have died out without ‘evolving’?
Why did some higher primates ‘evolve’ into humans but none of the others did…? Are humans still evolving…?
Then tell me that it’s ‘scientifically’ possible and observable for one species to become another (epigenetic’s does not explain this as it explains limited variation within a single species and is not always ‘good’ in the eyes of evolution theory which undermines the whole natural selection thing) and give the examples that you surely have of one species becoming another different species. This would be a transitional fossil or the record of it being observed and recorded – no hearsay or wikipedia or blog sites now Bob.
Then fathom for a moment your belief that first there was nothing, then a big bang happened (good science), then the rain fell upon the earth and turned solid rock into soup, from this soup (this all happened millions of years ago of course right under our microscopes) a single cell organism developed even though the likelihood of this becoming a stable organism even for a split second make mathematicians dizzy with how stupidly unlikely this is let alone that these random chance factors would ‘evolve’ for millions/billions of years without leaving a SINGLE trace of fossil evidence but all the dinosaur bones survived (please explain what made you believe this Bob – how it’s been proven to you too make you so arrogant)
Then learn about Darwin, and his influences, and his own opinions on his origin of species.
Then learn about genes and DNA and learn that not once in all our time hoping has DNA ever ‘evolved’ new information and has only ever been known to degrade and LOOSE information/coding in alignment with the second law of thermodynamics we know as entropy.
These are cold, hard mathematical facts Bob.
No amount of your tax funded religion of darwinism will get around this and these things have been known from the times of Darwin and even a little earlier.
Darwin was a front for something far more sinister. And you just fall in line without any research or basic understanding of the basic principles that so frustrated your puppet science priest master.
In fact – if you can just explain how unattractive women and men have made it through millions of years of this so called survival of the fittest/ natural selection process you don’t fully understand and that will be enough.
This is gonna be fun…
You have been studying Mercola…? OK
On chimpanzees… Logic my friend. You made a claim that implied that being taller and heavy makes one stronger. I simply demonstrated that is not true. Your point about leverage and muscle fibre composition only serves to bolster my argument since the same aspects can apply to humans (for example Spartans). In fact they apply to me. I have undertaken certain forms of training that have made me stronger than taller and heavy men that I train with. They nickname me “gorilla strength”. Go figure.
I used the Spartans as an example because we have so much information about them. There are of course numerous records of their training methods etc. available and what they were putting up “in the big lifts”. I doubt they would consider a “big lift” useful however. What good is a 1000lb squat on the battlefield? There are also records contained in their bodies, which we have found and measured. For example, you can work backwards from bone density to determine just how strong someone would have been. Compare that to what we know of genetics and evolution and there we go.
Not sure how you know what my fantasies are or how long I have had them but if anyone is obsessed with Spartans it is you. You are the one jumping up and down in some bizarre ritual of denial. Just consider that there is a reason we still talk about them today. You seem to have a peculiar obsession with PEDs. That said, did you know that the Zulus used PEDs?
The Soviet Bloc training methods are in part derived from the Spartans. With good reason. The Chinese are doing the same.
The answers to all your questions are basically this: training and preparation. If you cannot understand why speed (and by speed I include explosiveness, reflexes, power as well as quickness of foot, etc.) is not useful on a Bronze Age battlefield, well I really cannot help you.
Last, there is no “evolution in my eyes”. There is merely the fact of evolution. That is, organisms evolve constantly in response to the stimulus placed upon them. An example is the increase in brain size and reduction in stomach size in response to increase consumption of cooked meat.
Humans have been observed evolving as have bacteria in a petri dish.
All species evolve.
You seem to be edging into conspiracy theory so I will make no further comment on this topic.
I’m hearing a lot of talking but your not saying anything relevant Bob – “We’ve looked at their bones” and what was it that the bones contained that gave you the impression that they were stronger and faster even if you are now going to move the goal posts immensely to try and argue this? Explosiveness is not speed – speed is speed. Explosiveness is a lay term to describe maximal force production in minimal time aka power. Many athletes are very powerful but by no means speedy or capable of great speed. If your factor in leverage you will see how stupid this broadening of the term speed is.
Your telling me that the Spartan bones that have been analysed evidence stronger people than Doug Hackensmidt?
Stronger that Mariusz (not spelling his surname)?
Phil Pfister? Derek Poundstone? These men are stronger than Spartans were because the energy needed to develop this strength is just unrealistic for an ancient Greek scenario. Unless the Spartans were strength training 12 x /week, consuming at least 8000 calories/day and on the most sophisticated drug and recovery regimen of TODAY, then they were no-where near as strong as the men of today, or as big, or as powerful. You must be relying on the idea of human genes being stronger back then huh? But then that would disprove evolution would it not as we should surely have evolved to be stronger today even if just fractionally ennit Bob?
We’ve studied a lot of ancient people and the spartans don’t actually stand out that much. Were they stronger and faster than the Kossacks?
Your assertion that I was implying that strictly being taller makes one stronger (your short I take it?) is again a false implication – all things being equal, the taller athlete with more actual mass is stronger – you want to cling to relative strength but relative strength is irrelevant when two men are fighting with weapons to kill each other – or fighting full stop. In this instance it is a great advantage to have extra weight, height and length. This is why we divid weight categories Bob. Remember, all things being equal height is superior – I suspect you will counter with specific cases in which it’s anyones guess as to whether all else is equal.
Nice attempt at self promotion there – I have been an elite athlete operating at the top of British American Football and 200 m sprinting. I have trained a slew of elite athletes in the areas of Triathlon, Iron Man, Track Cycling, MMA and other sports – and have developed myself to an NFL level of athleticism, strength and conditioning – I’ve never even seen a steroid. I have been trained by the best weightlifting coaches in the country (Giles Greenwood stills holds the British record in the snatch) and was mentored and coached by the same coach as Dwaine Chambers (Selwyn Philbert).
If your counter to my challenge to evolution is simply “it’s a fact” I commend you for your admirable and rigorous scientific principles – please apply them to disprove the second law of thermodynamics because so far you have started to come across as impetuous and petty.
The information we have about Spartans is grossly misrepresented in order to sell workout programs and self development soundbites to fatherless little boys who are just dying to develop a man crush on these ancient, homosexual and often peadophilic soldiers.
What was the best Deadlift of the Spartans?
What was his name? How was this recorded?
Are we sure that it meets the standard of a regulation Deadlift otherwise we really can’t take it seriously.
Why were the Spartans Deadlifting and Bench pressing Bob? And which what barbells and equipment?
You mean they were lifting heavy things? Like everyone else throughout time and space?
Bob, for the final time, just because you say that humans and bacteria have been evolving, that doesn’t mean anything.
Your just some desperate ROK reader who makes outrageous claims then asks everyone else to disprove them when you are challenged even though your claims have never been proven or even an attempt has been made at substantiation. It’s not my place to disprove evolution – it’s evolutions place to prove itself you moron. Otherwise it’s just another guess amongst many.
I’ve asked you for examples which you clearly do not have – they don’t exist so save yourself the bother – if they did we would be discussing Darwins Law’s of evolution, not just a THEORY.
I expect batter than this from a Red-Piller. Your arguing like a woman.
Zulu’s used substances that were performance enhancing aye?
What like caffein?
Do you realise how broad and pointless your statement was?
Please tell me how you have come to the conclusion that the Eastern Block got it’s S&C from the Spartans (LMAO)?
And that China are following this wise course…?
Can you refer me to the numerous records of spartan training methods – I think your giving cross fit too much credit mate.
Yes I do all of these, except for the power clean, which I haven’t done since my athletic training days. Will be sure to include them in my routine once more asap.
*helmets, *if,
Gay.
i have that problem, too. gotta try that out. do you still eat normal wheat products?
I don’t eat any grains. You don’t miss them.
interesting. would you give me a short overview over what you eat normally?
Dairy, meat and greens. Fruit as well. I eat a ton of this stuff and never count calories. Body fat is between 12-14% and improving.
I don’t known what to think of this stuff. Do you put it in your protein shake? I read that the GLL guy burns it. so do you inhale it? If you need an energy boost, is it better than caffeine?
As it is not approved for human consumption by the FDA, the preferred term for use is “burning” it. Read between the lines.
In terms of energy boost, it is similar to caffeine, since kratom is in the same family as coffee. In my opinion, it has all the good points of coffee (focus, energy, concentration) without any of the bad points (increased heart rate, increased body temperature).
Kratom acts like a weak opioid agonist and chronic opioid use will kill your testosterone levels, so I probably will not use this for lifting, maybe its good for getting high though.
Lots of lifters would disagree with you, but I see your point.
send me a free sample and I might have a different opinion.
Sorry, due to abuse of the free sample program, we have discontinued it.
Lots of lifter use steroids.
But they don’t tell anyone.
Whats your point?
Science proves steroids work. Science proves kratom works. You believe one science but not the other. What’s your point?
I never said steroids work because science says so.
You totally miss my point.
It’s an indicator of a loosing battle when one side starts putting words in his opponents mouth.
I never put words in anyone’s mouth. Have a great day. Also, I think you mean “losing”, not “loosing”.
*lifters *What’s
*losing *opponent’s
Blah blah blah, buy my stupid herbs.
You don’t need any of this shit, just eat a good diet (meat, dairy, vegetables, fruits, whole grain carbs, and cut the sugar and processed crap), work out properly (i.e. lift some days, do cardio other days) and you’ll be stronger, faster, leaner, and get harder erections than 95% of the tubs of fuck that fill the world today.
And don’t give me that “Wah, it’s so hard to buy healthy food in America” nonsense. That’s an excuse that fatties use. There’s no location in America where lard and high fructose corn syrup just fly through the air and force their way into your mouth.
Fuck the supplement snake oil salesmen.
Leave out the “whole grain” carbs. They are high glycemic and worse than table sugar. Read Wheat Belly.
Eating too much carbs, or too much of anything, is undoubtedly bad for you.
But considering that I lost 20 pounds while eating rice, noodles, or bread with dinner every night, this is yet another case where “calories in, calories out” trumps everything.
Eat a normal meal, and exercise every day (I’m including walking 2-3 miles a day, in addition to formal exercising), you lose weight and fat. Simple.
Carbs are over-pushed in our society. Yes, you can lose weight eating them, but it’s much harder than necessary, and worse for you in the long run.
I’d suggest you view the documentary “Fathead’ to challenge your beliefs. It’s not a long, heavy documentary, and pretty breezy and not hit-you-over-the-head. The guy who made it runs a blog here: http://www.fathead-movie.com/. Free on Netflix and Hulu, last time I checked.
I have wheat belly. Haven’t read it yet but your post gave me the push. Next book I read.
So 5 scientific studies proving it works is still “snake oil” to you?
Are you the last to know that scientific studies can be bought and paid for like advertising space?
While skepticism is healthy, distrusting all science isn’t. Based on your rationale, we shouldn’t trust anything that science concludes. Read the source studies yourself and if you can find holes in the methodology or results, that’s one thing. “I personally don’t believe 5 different studies just because I don’t” isn’t healthy.
Instead of going back over the source studies shall I just post the studies on superior performance enhancement?
Please clarify, I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying.
I can advertise a superior product is it’s all about scientific studies.
Seriously dude, I have nothing to loose here.
First of all, it’s “lose”, not “loose”.
Second, if you don’t want to use kratom, that’s your choice. Just because people sell something doesn’t mean they are lying. Welcome to capitalism. Last time I checked, every product you have ever bought was sold at a profit. Profit does not necessarily mean lying. You seem to want to argue just for the sake of arguing, and I have better things to do. Have a great day.
*for,
*studies,
*if *Seriously, *lose
“Fuck the supplement snake oil salesmen.”
supplementation is a good idea, big pharma doesn’t tell you that though because cheap or un-patentable substances ruin the business model
it’s your health, no one cares about your cells but you, and those cells have systems which fight damage, and to run those systems they require certain substances, building blocks, they don’t come out of no-where, so it’s up to you to do your research and make sure your soldiers are well-fed
They have a limited “synthesis rate” of course, but better the building blocks are over-abundant in the bloodstream than not.
aging is just a system, a malleable system that you can fuck with, personally, i created my own anti-aging strategy to fuck with the aging process of my cells, the idea is that as biotech gets more advanced and our knowledge of the aging process becomes more advanced, our ability to kink the aging system of decreptitute becomes better eventually leading to stopping the process itself, into full out rejuvenation
too many men have given way to their inner cowardice with sayings like “80 is enough” or “nothing you can do anyway” ETC … there is A LOT you can do but truth be told, most are decadent lazy denialists
Before you can fight aging you have to admit you are a “lazy denialist” which is like you in your “blue pill days” well right now you’re in your “lazy denialist” phase, you may have SOME consciousness of healthy habits and lift weights, but generally you still poison yourself once in a while carelessly with garbage food and other habits without realizing the long term exponential costs biologically speaking
laziness is a disease, and laziness punishes our biology, evolutionarily speaking, it was in the interest to keep the more active tribes members alive longer, so it was measured in our “physical activity level” how much we contributed and how dependant the species were on us, higher energy expenditure out, lower bodyfat in, = less disease because evolution assumes you are worth keeping around longer and genetic switches in your body adapt for longevity
Once you have this process in the perfect balance, The balance where you are not “overtraining” yet also not “undernourished” you basically will have mastered longevity, the rest is supplementation and strength training fine tune your “aging process” as good as you can get it
Well, some folks lash out and say i don’t care what i look like without realizing that aging is actually an exponential process
From 20-30 you don’t feel much aging
but…
From 30-40 you feel the effects of aging twice as much as you felt from 20-30
from 40-50 you feel double the effects as from 30-40
from 50-60 you feel double the effects you felt from 40-50
Eventually life becomes unbearable and we croak due to this exponential function, so be more aggressive at self-preservation .. and always remember, our brain ARE IN OUR BODIES, people tend to forget that, they think their body is somehow separate from their minds and this absolves them of needing a personal anti-aging program , lazy denialists!
No one is above cellular biological processes. Not yet.
The first Man chimes in.
Took longer than I’m comfortable with ROK…
*with,
*Edit: Comment self-deleted.
ROK added that picture, I’ve never seen it before.
Fair, criticism withdrawn. Surprised rok did that, but like I said, at least it isn’t a totally awful picture.
I stopped drinking coffee three years ago when I started weightlifting. I now fall asleep within 15 minutes, my energy is steady throughout the day, my mind is sharp, no anxiety, not feeling overhyped. The most noticeable effect was that my eyes cleared. Before I had really scary bloodshot eyes that made people thinking I was an alcoholic.
Caffeine and Kratom are stimulants and as such they give a sense of false energy. You literally rev your body’s engine when it’s stuck in the mud. They cover the signals that the body gives you when it needs a rest and this lead to adrenal exhaustion.
Avoid them both.
The science on caffeine being an anti-aging longevity drug is mixed
basically, it decreases some of the disease processes associated with type 2 diabetes , has a lot of anti-oxidants, is a liver tonic( a very powerful one) our liver is what generates glutathione which is our most powerful free radical scavenger, and caffeine and coffee protect the liver (sometimes as much as 50% boost) Now, the liver filters our blood, that is a very good thing = )
Mortality statistics show that people who drink coffee do live longer… Diminishing returns after 3 or 4 cups a day like everything else of course…
I wouldn’t avoid coffee, just listen to your body, some people adapt to the mild hypertension, others do not, also.. look into l-citruline and l-arginine for clean arteries and low blood pressure,
I find coffee helps me get more done in the day, which is a net gain in stress levels, i increase my stress level with the coffee somewhat, but i get more done while on it, so that i find it easier to relax after the day since i had a more productive day
the net effect is probably neutral, but i also am on a pretty intensive weight/cardio training/ diet and supplementation anti-aging program i created
You can’t avoid “stress in life” but you can make your body more stress-resistant
“Acute” stress in mice heals their skin faster, but “chronic” stress breaks their immune system, so slight stress does not seem to have much negative effect
Coffee has some antioxidants that are beneficial. Anyone drinking more than a cup or two needs to reassess, though. Kinda like alcohol in that regard.
There are other sources of antioxidants. Tobacco has moderate-to-high antioxidant properties, much like fruits and vegetables.
Good man, well said.
I have been a regular user of kratom for months. The stuff is awesome and knocks the pain right out of my shoulder. Also, it is a potent nootropic in my opinion and great to take (a stimulant variety) before studying. The mood enhancement is a great bonus and additionally helps with your approach to difficult work.
I disagree with just one point. Weight-lifting is optional :-). I have not done weight-lifting in years and for my purposes I have acheived (scary in some people’s opinion) increases in strength that far exceed what I could get from lifting, by focusing on body-weight training.
If a products legitimacy is tested by searching the internet for proof as the first paragraph suggests, then it has no legitimacy. And there are no studies to reference BTW.
Look guys, either become a bad ass the same way jackie chan did, or fukin do gear.
Stop pouncing around with this new product shit.
What?
A product is not legitimate….because scientific studies show it is? Is that your argument? I don’t understand.
Would you “do gear” without science proving it works? Wouldn’t you want…y’know…some science showing it does before you “do gear”?
This “new product” has been used for hundreds of years in Asia.
Is your argument that scientific studies prove something?
You mean like evolution?
Yes I’m being serious – you have come to a red pill blog site and should expect to be challenged on your scientific studies bullshit.
You really don’t want me to start breaking down your science worship in front of the good people now do you?
Want to know what else scientific studies prove?
That injecting Testosterone and other real performance enhancing compounds makes you the man you want to be.
Why piss around with this rubbish?
Scientific studies prove that animals that are currently alive have been dead for millions of years. Can I still catch at the church of science?
Again, I agree—skepticism is healthy, but perhaps you should find holes in the specific methodology in THESE studies, as opposed to “all science is rubbish”.
You don’t believe in evolution?
Wow.
Have a great day.
No I believe in the LAW of Entropy, and the LAW’s of Genetics.
These are LAW’s – not theories.
You may want to ask yourself why we STILL refer to the THEORY of evolution, not the LAW of evolution.
PS it’s because the above mentioned laws categorically disprove evolutionary theory – look it up and learn.
And then reference for me the transitional fossils that hundreds of years later not one has been found.
Keep worshipping the priests of science.
You don’t know your own false gods?
Wow.
Have a great day.
I think you might misunderstand the meaning of the word “theory” as it’s used in science. Gravity is also a “theory”. Do you not believe in gravity either?
Have a wonderful day.
Gravity is relative.
Your aware that theres no gravity in space? A law is a law because it is never observed otherwise. I thought you were a man of science?
Three times you have told me to have a wonderful day.
How about a rational response?
Like how evolution manages to coexist with entropy?
Darwin couldn’t figure it out. Thats why he rejected the theory of evolution before he died. About three years before I think.
There is gravity in space, there’s gravity everywhere as far as physicists can tell.
Evolution and entropy aren’t connected in any meaningful way. The Earth is not a closed system, it is being bombarded with huge amounts of energy all the time.
Whoever told you that Darwin rejected his own discoveries is a) a balls out liar and b) making an irrelevant point. Even if he had told the world that Evolution is not a fact, the facts would have proven him wrong. Here is a creationist website telling the truth for once, perhaps you will listen to them:
https://www.icr.org/article/2834/
In scientific language, a Theory (capital T) is the highest level of current understanding, a framework that coherently contains several Laws. You are talking about the everyday meaning of theory, which is roughly equivalent to a hypothesis in science.
You twat.
Mendell’s work on genetics (concurrent with Darwin) proved that the law of entropy applies to genes – and that this makes Darwins theory that all life came from a single source blatantly false.
If you are stupid enough to think that single cell organisms turned into human beings (if only given enough time!) without leaving a single transitional fossil then you are testament to how failed evolution is and that survival of the fittest does not apply to you. Somehow your ancestors glitched survival of the fittest…
Darwin understood this and threw his bigger theory out in frustration.
The establishment new that one day morons like you would be so well and truly sold on the theory that you would be so easy to market to and manipulate by simply challenging your right to be here on the basis of survival of the fittest.
It’s the perfect philosophy for an enslavement based capitalist system – tell people they must struggle to beat everyone else or they are not worthy.
You dumb Fuck – you won’t find a redder pill.
Are you serious?
Are you trying to prove your point by saying that “in scientific language”?
Shall I tell you about religious language…?
Or legalese?
Or shall we reference tongues?
Or just construct some other flimsy argument?
Scientist would never establish themselves as the definition of intelligence and knowledge now would they?
Would these be the same scientists who fell for evolution?
where do you find the definitions of this ‘scientific language’?
Where is your proof of evolution? In the manner that we have proof our genes?
You keep going back to Darwin, which is a red herring. His work had nothing to say about the origin of life, only about the diversification of species.
You are wrong about the lack of fossils, there are truck loads of them, but even if we grant you that there are no fossils of anything, there is plenty of other concordant evidence that makes common descent from single celled organisms the best explanation that fits said evidence, ERVs being a prime example. The fact that you think that there are no fossils, like Darwin’s deathbed recantation, show that you simply believe whatever religiously motivated liars tell you, without bothering to open a real science textbook on your own account. If you are genuinely interested in truth, you could start here with an easy video series made a man born and raised a Christian who, like you, was lied to about science since he was a child:
You appeal to consequences in your argument that Evolution makes it easy to “market to and manipulate” us. The consequences of a fact make no difference to the truth of that fact. This is one of the most common fallacies used by religious indoctrinators: “Our belief may be nonsense in your eyes, but look at all the charity we do!” That is not an argument for the veracity of their belief.
My point is simple. When you say:
“You may want to ask yourself why we STILL refer to the THEORY of evolution, not the LAW of evolution.”
You demonstrate that:
a) you don’t know what a scientific Theory (with a capital T) is.
b) you take your information from religiously motivated liars who deliberately distort language that is already unfamiliar to the layman in order to deceive you.
Here is a helpful clarification:
http://evolutionfaq.com/faq/why-isnt-evolution-considered-law
Edward, are you really unaware of Darwins Theory on the origins of species? Yes Darwins theory attempts to account for diversity amongst species, but it is called Darwins Theory (still just a theory) on the origin of species because it is his theory on the origins of the Human species which theorises that the origin of human species is the origin of all species on this planet – a single cell organism is what is hypothesised.
You must be kidding me?
Are you really countering my challenge to counter the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) with a youtube video of someone ‘born into’ Christianity as opposed to being born again into Christianity and relying on this as evidence?
Is this how you educate yourself and your people?
Shall I link the myriad of videos of atheist (like myself) acknowledging the Gospel after being visited by Christ?
Or of Muslims doing the same?
Your assertion regarding the transitional fossils is absurd – please do link this abundant evidence – photos should be easy to come by as should all the records of where, when and how they were found – why have you linked a youtube video instead of doing this? And please do not confuse catholicism with Christianity – this automatically disqualifies you on the basis of your religious ignorance alone. You obviously do not know what you are arguing against.
You know that I will destroy anything you present because they do not exist – if they did we would be discussing Darwins Law of Evolution and my position (or that of any other religious person) would have no basis and could be easily swept aside.
I have stated that evolution has been used as a tool for social manipulation of the cruelest order and that you have fallen victim to it yourself.
I have not argued that this social manipulation and the other negative connotations relating to evolution invalidates the theory – I have quite clearly used scientific principles and an appeal to rational thought.
You have done a poor job in constructing a straw man straw man red herring false flag argument – you deceive no-one into the righteousness of your position with this.
Now please provide the ‘truckloads of evidence’ and all of these concordant factors you mention.
Please do not concede for the sake of brevity the transitional fossils point – just disprove it with evidence.
And what happens when a theory is proven wrong by a mathematical truth?
Like the way evolutionary theory is proven wrong by mathematical laws of entropy?
And by the way, your first link to the creationist website just highlights how silly your ‘but the earth is a closed system’ argument is. The article points out that open systems have been observed to intensify entropy.
Here is helpful clarification:
http://www.icr.org/article/does-entropy-contradict-evolution/
Huh?
I don’t believe that you have actually read Origin of Species, where he specifically does not attempt to explain the origin of life itself and stresses that it is useless to speculate on human origins, although his speculation (not assertion) that we originate in Africa has been shown to be correct. Our understanding of evolution has come forward leaps and bounds since Darwin’s day (when DNA was unknown, for example), so attacking his views is a red herring and calling Evolution Theory “Darwin’s Theory” is inaccurate: some people call it that affectionately in honour of the man, but it’s often used by religious liars to obfuscate the argument.
You say that you are an atheist, which makes me curious as to how you can swallow all the typical creationist lies?
Here are your fossils:
http://biologos.org/blog/series/human-fossil-record
http://www.transitionalfossils.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/14/84
http://ncse.com/book/export/html/11771
And what happens when you are shown that no such conflict exists, ever existed in the minds of scientists who work on these subjects (biologists and physicists) and was cooked up by, I repeat, religiously motivated liars seeking to bamboozle people like you who don’t want to do any research on their own account?
http://biologos.org/questions/evolution-and-the-second-law
Here is a cheeky response to this point:
Q: “Does not the second law of thermodynamics disprove evolution?”
A: “Yes it does not. I mean, it doesn’t. Your weird grammar is bewitching. But your grasp of physics is not. The Second Law of Thermodynamics roughly states that energy can only flow from a hot body to a cold one in a closed system, and that the measure of this is called entropy, which only ever increases. You’re parroting the argument that a living cell appears to contradict this, by maintaining order in their cellular innards. Alas living things are not closed systems. You’re using one thing you don’t understand to explain another. Your problem here is really with physics. Can you take it up with those guys please?”
*Yes, *people,
*laws *laws *P.S.
*Scientists *knowledge, *Where *proof of
*You’re *there’s *That’s *before,
*Darwin’s *Darwin’s *Darwin’s *human *theorizes *hypothesized *me! *YouTube *when, *YouTube * no one *concede, *brevity,
Would you “do gear” without science proving it works? Wouldn’t you want…y’know…some science showing it does before you “do gear”?
*product’s *proof, *Look, guys: *badass *Jackie *Chan *fucking
http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ddww-54b0e24eed799.gif
Im good…hehe
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