Why We Should Reinstitute The Dowry

Marriage rates are declining, and some sociologists fear that an entire generation is choosing to opt out of marriage. While there are many causes, from the financial and personal risk of divorce, to the fact that men can today receive any benefits a woman could offer him without marrying her, to the simple fact that virgin brides are in such scarce supply, one step that would go towards reinforcing a patriarchal family unit is to reinstitute the Dowry.

What is a dowry?


Dowry is money or property delivered to a husband by the bride’s family upon marriage. Typically, dowry would consist of real assets of hard value, including gold, silver, diamonds, property, or other valuables. Dowry was a custom practiced throughout the world in many cultures, and can be traced back to Biblical times (Genesis 31 tells the story of Jacob being deceived by Laban, who tricked him into marrying first one of his daughters, and then the other. Withholding the dowry he was due, Laban squandered the money on himself).

Dowry provides a safety net for women

One of the original purposes of a dowry was to provide for the woman in cases of death of the husband, divorce, or extreme cases of abuse. This was in a time where women could not legally hold property, with the exception of dowry. The dowry could revert back to the woman in certain circumstances, and the woman would have an insurance policy knowing that she was not totally and completely dependent on her husband.

Code of Hammurabi


The Code of Hammurabi, Babylonian law written in the 1750s BC, provides one of the earliest forms of written law in human history. Indeed, fully one third of this code details rules for marriage, divorce, inheritance, and sexuality. The code states: “If a woman quarrel with her husband, saying ‘You are not congenial to me’, the reasons for her prejudice must be presented. If she is guiltless, and there is no fault on her part, but he leaves and neglects her, then no guilt attaches to this woman, she shall take her dowry and go back to her father’s house.”

While one must chuckle at the attempts to use logic and reason in dealing with female behaviors, this was nevertheless an early protection for women who were abused or abandoned.


The code further laid out rules, such that marriage was a contract, like any other sales contract, for the man and wife to be together, in exchange for the dowry. It was allowed that a husband could have sexual relations with a maid provided by the wife, and concubines were almost equal to wives, with the caveat that the first wife always had priority.

Men were also free to sire children by any of their slave girls, and these children would be free. (Perhaps the USA could have avoided the whole civil war if we relied on this rule, as importing of slaves was no longer allowed, and siring slave children who then became free is a far easier way of ending slavery).

The code, while primitive in some respects by today’s standards in requiring equivalent punishment fitting the crime “an eye for an eye,” was nevertheless more advanced and progressive in other ways than our laws today. Intent, for example, was of supreme importance, which would knock out the majority of the “regret rape” cases we hear about today–if a guy didn’t think he was raping a girl, and didn’t intend to violate her, it would be very difficult for her to prove that a sexual assault happened just because the woman later regretted the experience.

Dowry in the Roman Empire


Dowry was a part of almost every marriage, and was seen as the bride’s family’s contribution to the costs involved in setting up a new household, that the husband would now be expanding. Logically, we all know that we can live simpler, cheaper, and more frugally alone than with a woman, and ancient elders recognized the financial costs of bringing a woman into the household, with dowry being the assistance.

The dowry was a substantial financial burden, and often would be paid over a three-year period by the bride’s family. One cannot help but note the impact this would have on the father of the bride, and how seriously he would consider the vows to marriage and the importance of ensuring the virginity of his daughter.

Dowry in Europe


St Nicholas in an early Christmas legend, 1425

Dowry was practiced throughout Europe for much of its history until recently. In England, a marriage would be cancelled if the bride’s father failed to deliver the dowry. Rapists would be required to pay the dowry of a woman they violated, and if debts were unpaid, you went to debtors prison.

The Christmas story of Santa Claus comes from St. Nicholas throwing gold into the stockings of three poor sisters in order to provide for their dowries.  Remember the next time you see “stockings hung by the chimney with care” that this is a celebration of dowry.

Some of the larger dowries paid throughout history included the entire cities of Mumbai, India and Tangier, Morocco, which the Portuguese king offered as the dowry to King Charles II of Britain to marry his daughter. Dowry continued in many European societies, ending only recently.  Greece outlawed dowry in 1983.

Dowry in the USA

Dowry existed both in native tribes and the American colonists. When Pocahontas married an English settler, she brought considerable land and assets as her dowry. When John Hull, mintmaster in Boston in the 1600s, gave his 18-year-old daughter in marriage, he paid her weight in silver to the groom. In the 1900s, dowry continued primarily among the wealthy, and American daughters who wished to marry aristocrats from Europe would be expected to deliver a large dowry.

Dowry in Asia

Dowry was practiced throughout many Asian societies. Ironically, while western nations began removing the custom of dowry, it only grew in acceptance in much of Asia. Today, dowry is relatively common in India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Egypt, Morrocco, etc. As these nations have developed, and many southeast Asian men have obtained advanced training and skills, their families have demanded greater dowrys from brides who will share in the financial rewards of their husbands.

Practical reasons for the dowry

What are some reasons to bring back the dowry?

1. Recognition of the true costs of marriage

Dowry recognizes that the groom is taking on a financial (not to mention emotional) burden by taking a bride, and dowry attempts to level the playing field a bit.

2. A wiser use of dad’s money


The new family could start out with a nice nest egg, land to build a house on, assets, and cash, or they could just blow 20 grand on a crappy DJ and some overpriced dresses.

3. Reinforces the value of virginity

A dowry is a significant financial commitment, and a father would not risk the loss of this investment because his daughter was impure.

4. Clearly states the value of marriage

While this was more obvious in the past, when a woman would be more of a burden on her father or husband, a dowry recognizes that marriage is the end goal, because the father will have to keep supporting the daughter financially until she finds a husband.

5. Protects women in case of neglect, abandonment, or divorce

A dowry is an insurance policy for women who are in a truly bad marriage.

6. Discourages divorce

Women today can financially *benefit* from divorcing a husband, and there is no test of love or neglect required. A woman can divorce “Cause feelings” and find herself receiving a free income for life. In the case of dowry, a woman would forfeit her dowry, and have to pay again to a second husband if she attempted to divorce and remarry.


7. Feminists hate dowry


Finally, if feminists hate it, it must be good. Social media is full of anti-dowry propaganda. Considering that dowry was originally instituted as a protection for women who upheld their end of the marriage contract, one must be very suspicious of this opposition.

Indeed in several countries, men are threatened with imprisonment for taking part in this institution that is fundamentally a part of marriage itself. It’s a shame we don’t see any of the “defense of marriage” types rally to support dowry.


We’re gonna need to see some stats on that…

Read More: Traditional Marriage Is How Past Societies Prevented Drama

190 thoughts on “Why We Should Reinstitute The Dowry”

  1. Is this a joke? This has to be a joke. Of all the problems that this country (USA) is facing, does the author truly believe that reinstating a dowry is the answer? Even if the author truly believes that, is this the battle men should be fighting? We live in a world where 50% of daughters are growing up with fathers not married to their mothers. I come to ROK to learn how to be a better man. The website is failing more and more.

    1. I think this is supposed to be more of a thought experiment then a practical solution to all of our modern problems….

    2. I think it is more of a thought experiment to help us look at things in different ways. How often have you looked into the history and reasons for dowries? I can honestly say I haven’t at all. It’s certainly an interesting topic to discuss and to ponder. That’s is part of the growth and being a better man that you strive to be; broadening your field of knowledge and applying critical thinking.

      1. Fair enough. I didn’t see it that way, but your way could be right as well. I get concerned that feminists read ROK and will take an article like this and say “see! This is what they want to do!”

        1. Because we live in a world (USA) where if someone can get 50% of the vote plus their mother, then they are elected to office. Does a politician seek the views of men? or does a politician seek the views of women? Why is that? What can men do to have a greater voice both in Washington and in their local community? You call them “harpies.” But if a harpy says “see, these MEN want us to pay them to marry us!” Do you think that will carry weight with a majority of the population? Because I do.

        2. In many cases it is the father of the bride who will foot the bill for the wedding celebration. Technically he’s paying a dowry to send off his little princess……

        3. So your argument is to compromise in order to be electable? There you go. PC and censorship has long since become an act of free will, not an act of imposed will from the state. Fear rules.

        4. What are we compromising? Between what two positions? Is reinstating the dowry a reasonable position? It’s a matter of: what battles are we fighting? If we fight a battle, I want to win. Sometimes fighting a losing battle is necessary as well. If the purpose of this article is to educate, then I get it and fine. If the purpose of this article is to persuade, then it is joke.

        5. We are compromising if we are not willing to let men on our side talk about everything without restricting our mouths. There is nothing to win in a battle if you first have to abandon the thing you are fighting for.

        6. Besides, the ‘purpose’ of an article depends entirely of what everyone thinks its purpose is. Just like the significance of a piece of art is how it makes you feel, not what the artist felt when he wrote or painted it.

        7. I think the key is to shun no ideas at all, without filtering by ‘well thought out’. Why? Because you can manipulate that filter to mean something you want it to mean to influence others to discard information you do not want them to process. You just call it ‘not well thought out’ then.

        8. I read an article here yesterday about a whole bunch of old tough martial artists. I have zero intention of becoming a martial artist. Yet I enjoyed it, and it allowed me to think about things I otherwise would not have. Roosh’s latest posting is about the unabomber. That’s quite an easy strawman to attack or condemn, but I actually found some interesting points in his manifesto. Of course while totally disagreeing with what he did.
          As a wise man once told me “take what resonates with you, and leave the rest behind.”

        9. Well thought out in relation to ideas of this site . We obviously shun most feminist and leftist ideology. Accepting all ideas is perilous, I believe that’s how society ended up in the first place

        10. Wrong. Tell me: If you do not first allow yourself to absolutely freely contemplate feminist ideology, how can you ever with full confidence come to the conclusion that you want to reject them?

        11. Because their ideas are based on false information and their own lack of understanding . I only need a liar to lie once to know the rest of what he speaks is bullshit

        12. But that is obviously wrong. It is intuitive, yes, but a liar does not necessarily always lie. Now, a liar could actually manipulate you in this way. He comes to you, tells you some obvious bullshit (claims he is a leftist) and then he tells you a RIGHT idea. You then associate that RIGHT idea with being spoken by a leftist and automatically discard it. Thus a leftist could actually prevent you from thinking a good idea.
          You know, like David Icke has good points, but then talks about reptilians. You could almost think of him as a figure meant to discourage people from thinking the things he says, because they associate them with ‘nuts’.

        13. I’d like to see us on the right do this exact thing to the leftists. Enthusiastically start agreeing with everything they say and what the confusion take over them. “They’re conservative…they can’t be on the right side of things! I must change my stance immediately!”

        14. First rule in debating is if one part of your argument is false your whole argument is now null. I can find right ideas among people who had no reason to lie . Musashi, the ancient greeks, the Vikings and so on. Common ideas that are not only shared across cultures but across time I deem as true. Anything else is opinion

        15. That is shortsighted. Ultimately, everything is opinion. Just because an idea perseveres ages does not make it right. What does ‘right’ mean, anyway, besides an idea that resonates with you personally?

        16. Yeah. Sometimes the easiest way to let someone find out that they do not really want something is to let them have it.
          If no one is disagreeing anymore, they lose their life purpose: Crying around.

        17. That is hippy bullshit. If everything was opinion then science would not exist. If an idea persist across cultures who never met and existeted at sperate periods then it would be consider fact . Both the Greeks and the Vikings warned of the faults of trusting women . They also held the idea that one can appreciate cultivation of the mind without sacrificing ones masculinity . Those are facts that men like us have just begun to realize .

        18. The seed has been planted. We shall see. And perhaps the guy above will become a hardcore pro-dowry advocate in a couple of years. Cheers!

        19. Ha, that’s funny but my first experience with any kind of manosphere stuff was discovering a site a few years ago called I think beards.org. It was basically just an enthusiast site for educating men on growing beards, how to groom them, the different styles, types of mustaches, etc. They encouraged every man to grow a beard at least once in life, because it is one thing that men can do that women cannot.
          What struck me more than anything was all the male camaraderie. Guys posting pictures on each day of their beard and receiving encouragement and feedback from other enthusiastic guys… “Hey bro, looks great! Keep it up! Don’t worry the itching will go away after the first week!” it was all so strange because men in American society do not have a “safe space” where we can be men, and support and encourage and compliment each other. It felt so strange.
          Women can talk all about their “safe spaces” but the irony is they are free to insert their agenda anywhere and everywhere, demanding tranny video game characters, the right to whip out and breastfeed whenever, wherever, the right to always be included everywhere as part of “diversity” and yet men are the ones that have no truly safe space. Except for the internet. God bless mankind for continuing to innovate and develop.

        20. Science is just a buzzword. What does it stand for? It stands for a certain methodology. For peer review. For observations that are reproducible. And yet science is often wrong. Actually, constantly. All the time, old theories are discarded and new ones formed.
          ‘This is hippy bullshit’ is an expression of your sentiment towards my idea, nothing more.
          I am not saying that stuff that persevered is not useful. But ultimately, it is you who chose to accept it and find it useful. Ultimately, you are your own judge and any kind of objective truth is just something you choose to believe in – even if objective truth IS indeed true, it is still you who chooses to see it and believe it. Besides, from your own perspective, what is TRUE but a word you utter when something resonates with you and seems … well, true?
          Why do you choose not to trust women? Because the idea resonates with your experiences. Plain simple.
          And comparing that with science, I gotta ask: What is the methodology of those old writers? How many women did they sleep with? How many did they know?
          How do you, for instance, know that you are not merely the same personality as those old writers and perhaps a little bitter and thus attract the same kind of bullshit women? How do you know that those writers, talented and wise no less, were not deluded and their perceptions distorted and biased? Against what do you check it? Against your own experience. But your own experience may be distorted. How do you know it is not? What is your ‘anchor’? Your father perhaps? Someone you trust who meant well with you? You see, it all is emotional in the end. Men come and give me advice that helps with women, so I learn that I gain emotional benefits from listening to these men. Does it make their words ‘true’? Well, who gives.

        21. Science is “often wrong” by design, since it is not meant to be an absolutist morality system or an absolutist system for definitively answering questions. If it were “always right” then it would be a dogma and/or religion.

        22. Did you have the problem of your skin underneath the beard getting really bad? My skin gets flaky and raw. I avoid scratching my beard so it’s not from that. Also, once it gets to a certain length, I can’t effectively get anything deep down to either exfoliate or moisturize my skin to help with this issue. Any suggestions?

        23. Science does alter but there are truths with in it . The gravity of earth will always pull at a certain weight no matter where you go . To sustain life on earth certain levels of gases must be maintained. I have read articles on your website and to speak with the conviction you do you must believe in certain unalienable truths . Philosophizing about opinions and such gets us no where . To move forward in life one must have a foundation of truths to guide them . The Greeks and Vikings spoke as a collective . The havamal was the Vikings Bible and many great Greeks spoke on the perils of women .

        24. Yeah, I kinda have that, too. I have not done this whole beard growing by design, so I just kinda scratch it from time to time and then forget about it. You may say it is disgusting, but then again, nobody sees it underneath the beard, right?
          But yah, if I knew a way to kinda get rid of those skin flakes there, I would do it. Maybe some kind of mild acid to dissolve them without attacking the hair? No idea.

        25. Do you wash and shampoo it every time you shower? That helps a lot, once it’s grown out a bit.

        26. It really, really helps. Especially Head & Shoulders, since you’re specifically dealing with flaking which is causing the itching I suspect. Works a treat for me.

        27. And yet new theories about gravity keep popping up. Say, what is gravity but a word for the observation that an apple falls to the ground and mathematical equations to describe it? Science brings us no closer to understanding why gravity is. It just observes that it is. There is no guarantee that gravity will still be tomorrow or that it was a million years ago. Interesting stuff, right? I mean, who guarantees that it really always was this way? Nobody. It is just an assumption by smart minds. One that could be false.
          No, I do not believe in inalienable truths. But I understand where you are coming from. I used to crave for certainty, too, because that was the only way I could feel confident. But these days, I know that I know nothing, so to speak. I nevertheless allow myself to play with an idea and shout it out there to see what happens. I wrote an article where I wrote that I would hack a single mother to pieces and then piss on her. What kind of inalienable truth is that? It is just a sentiment that I was brave enough to express, because it was in my system.
          Actually, the interesting question is why you need to ‘move forward’. That implies that you are not satisfied with the moment in the first place. But if you could be fully satisfied with yourself without needing absolute truths, would that not be great? If you could just go with the flow, without shame or guilt? If you could meet a girl on the street, have her tell you a lie, then ponder it, live by it for a week without fear, then find out it is wrong and simply discard it without losing much thought about it?

        28. Actually science doesn’t actually alter, what alters are the things it discovers, measures or theorizes about. The actual scientific method has been rock solid the same since forever. Observation, hypothesis, experiments, reject/accept hypothesis, more experiments, theory (or revising hypothesis as an invalid model if the experimentation shows no evidence to support it).

        29. Juice = sugar. If you’re comfortable drinking a glass of sweet, sweet pure cane sugar each day mixed in water, then juicing is for you, in fructose form.

        30. Dunno, it seems like a pretty simple thing that we all likely learned in elementary school.

        31. I would suggest reading Mike’s D&P post on juicing where he KIND OF debunks that. I’d link it, but his site is blocked on my work computer. He makes a compelling case for juicing and it has helped with many of his health issues. I just think it’s too much work keeping the juicer clean so I opt for smoothies.

        32. Yes, I mean fruits and veggies. I juiced for a month or two last year and it was great. Root beets man … I am not shitting you, this stuff just pumps you up like hell. Two root beets, carrots, some spinach. Looks like blood, tastes like shit. Made me feel nauseous. But I felt such a surge of energy with a proper dosage. And that despite being quite depressed back then. Truly amazing.

        33. And yet many guys here seem like they would profit from an introduction. I had mine during my Bachelor of Arts studies. Never had seen the world that clearly before. Literally changed the way I think in many many ways. Interestingly enough, I imagined I was one of the few who really grasped the profound implications of the necessity of asking concise questions. It is fascinating.

        34. I bet the quantity was not enough. In a smoothie, you have much more mass to swallow, so you will be careful to put too much into it.
          Last year, I had this big 5L can that I prepared for three or four days in advance. Towards the end, it always started to taste really rotten, but it still worked.

        35. I just avoid sugars in general everywhere I can. Thus far I’ve made it to 48 with the health scoring of your typical college athlete, so I figure I’ll go with what works for me.
          I suspect that if somebody is having health problems that juicing/fruit solves, it probably has something to do with a deficiency in certain vitamins and minerals that fruit may provide, perhaps?

        36. Quite possibly. I don’t know Mike’s diet so there’s no way for me to tell. I’m about to go on a modified steak and eggs diet next week to cut the gut. Going to have a small protein smoothie with fruits and veggies for lunch as the main difference.

        37. Perhaps alter was not the best word , evolve . The method is sound proof but with the advancement of technology a experiment done 100 years ago , repeated today , could yield different or more thorough results . Which could change what is held to be fact . I fear Tom arrow and myself spent too much time nit picking on what is truth haha.

        38. I’ve heard no new theories about gravity from both of my physics professors , link me . If the idea off gravity was not truth we would have not reached space nor achieved flight .To begin to understand the world one must begin to create ideas to help him make sense of things . Time is a man made concept yet it is measurable . The length it takes something to decay time . Humans aging and stars burning out is a visible marker or time .

        39. No, it is not entirely untrue. But when you say gravity, you may for instance be referring to Newton’s gravitational theory. As we know today, it is not entirely accurate. Would we be relying on it in spaceflight, we would make many mistakes and had lost many rockets. Einstein’s theory of relativity made all of this stuff more precise.
          I am saying it is not truth in itself because it is merely an observation. Truth is the lived experience of life. Theories and predictions about this experience are science. But the real truth is still the experience, no matter how well it is predictable through rules. And since you do not know anything but that which has been observed, our posited laws can describe nothing but that and thus not account for, say, fluctuations in these laws that may occur in phases of millions of years.

        40. I’m referring to the gravitational constant . Light travels at a constant as well . Nothing may be here in a million years you can’t point that far to the future and deny the truths that exist today . That’s dillusion or too much lsd. You can go on about what is fact or not but the universe as we know it exist because of constants . Wether or not we know what they are they still exist beyond what our opinion is .

        41. I don’t normally shampoo, but when I do, it’s only the beard. Stay thirsty, my friend.

        42. I’ve read a good bit on juicing vs smoothies, and the pulp in a blended smoothie buffers the natural sugar. You can’t get fat from eating too many apples or oranges, because the fiber contained in the fruit itself counters the effects of the sugar. If you use a juicer, you get only the sugary juice, not the fibrous pulp. If you blend in a smoothie, you get both, and it is actually an easier way to consume more fruits and veggies than eating them raw. Makes sense to me, plus it’s far easier and cheaper to blend smoothies.
          I do think that processed or added sugars are horrible in any form and should be avoided. But eating a whole fruit or veggie as created by nature, chock full of vitamins and minerals and nutrients, is a win.

        43. The gut is the only area of my body that’s ever a problem for me. It’s not huge, but not athletic looking by far. I suppose regular situps would help, but let me know if you find something that works out diet-wise. I’m a big believer in eggs. They just give me so much energy and make me feel great. I recently started making fresh quiche with eggs, cheese, heavy cream, and some stuff from my garden and I feel energized all day from breakfast. It’s incredibly simple and easy, and tastes great.

        44. Ah. Yes, of course. I am not denying their validity in any way. But you of course have to realize that the precise number is dependent on our arbitrary definition of meters and kilograms. Change our definition of that and the constant changes. So while we can agree that there is a constancy in the physical laws in this respect, we can not claim that ‘god’ wrote out the number 6.67408 × 10^-11 into his creation. It is simply a number that comes up when we use our existing mathematical models to explain the laws of physics. In another model, the number may take a different form. The constancy of the experience and observation is there, but the model we use to codify it is our choice and left to our intuition.

        45. Will do. I wasn’t familiar with stomach vacuums. Planking definitely works, but I kind of stopped planking when faith hilling and tebowing really got big (South Park joke).

        46. Wow stomach vacuuming is so easy, and I swear I can feel it already after just a few reps. Thanks, man!

        47. I can believe it. I Live in Mexico in the mountains. My Mexican wife of 40 years is also 73 years old, and has had knotted varicose veins for years. Her aunt who died well into her 90’s also had them, which brings up the possibility of genetic tendencies.
          A neighbor woman had them, and went to a doctor, a female M.D., who gave her a juice recipe to eliminate them. So, my wife decided to go, too. It has made great differences. The knots are gone, but the color of the veins will always be there, I guess.
          The doctor had her use specific quantities of celery; garlic; beets; carrots; lemon; alfalfa; Nopal cactus; pineapple; and parsley.
          She feeds the left-over fiber to the chickens!

        48. If you have not done so, I recommend everyone read Plato’s Caves. Plato was one of the early liberals. Caves says life is like being in a cave with a wall in front of you blocking plain sight of what is outside the cave. All you can see are the shadows from the things outside, as displayed on the roof of the cave.
          Everyone will interpret it differently, and there is no way to sort out the confusion. Ergo, there is not truth, ever. The only thing that counts is how someone feels about things. That is emotions.
          The conservative view says while truth is not always easy nor perfect. Truth can be ascertained.
          An example is unwed motherhood. Liberals question our right to judge unwed mothers. “Who are you to say how a woman must conduct herself? It is your duty to work hard and pay lots of taxes so we can give lots of money to women too lazy to support their own offspring”
          The conservative view says let us look at the results. Kids raised by unwed mothers are 7 times more likely to end up in prison or other signs of delinquency. And, areas where there are many unwed mothers are crime-ridden jungles. Ergo, unwed motherhood is bad and is not acceptable.
          Tom’s posting above is perfect liberalism. How do you know…?”

        49. Then again, just because something reaps worse results than something else does not mean that it has to be abolished. Why? Because it is not the state’s business.
          On one hand, you are mocking that people should work hard and pay taxes to the government.
          On the other hand, you freely claim for yourself the right to keep somebody from doing something just because it does not suit your numbers.
          ‘You do not produce the results WE like as a collective, therefore your existence is not validated or accepted by us.’
          What is the difference between your conservative and the liberal view? Both demand you to sacrifice yourself for standards of other people. Fuck that.
          A lifestyle is nothing that needs to be voted or agreed on. But of course, neither can tolerance be demanded. That is the reverse kind of tyranny.
          I will go the way in between. Let a mother do what she wants, but do not give her any assistance in doing so. Unwed mothers will think twice before getting a child when the state offers her no help with it whatsoever. When the state offers her no place to put her kid away while she is at work. When the state does not give her money for having kids.
          Everybody lives the life they want, but nobody is obliged to help them. Thus everybody who does support them does so out of free will.

        50. One more thing about results: Should a man not be allowed to pursue his passion if another man does the same thing in a statistically more efficient way?

    3. Most of the problems we have in the USA today are due to the collapse of traditional social values, empowered in part by the children produced as a result, who continue to vote for a government that forces even more of the same.
      Illegitimacy can and should be discouraged, by any and all means necessary, as much as possible.

    4. Here’s an alternative question. Would American society be better with a dowry or without one?

  2. I like the idea. In many marriages women come to the table with nothing but student loan debt, a low income, backed taxes, credit card bills, and sometimes even kids. A man is supposed to take all these on while also assuming the liability of divorce rape which can occur at any time and for no cause whatsoever.
    Heck, these days it is getting rarer for the bride’s family to even pay for the wedding (which used to at least be some form of dowery). I have known two guys where they were told, straight up, that they needed to pay for their guests and friends to attend. Another guy was even completely funding their entire wedding which I think was totally around $50,000. What a sham.
    At least the societal expectation that women must bring something positive to the table if they want marriage to be contemplated would be a great start.

    1. Actually I’ve known parents who have paid at least part of the wedding. Though I will take your word that not all of the bride’s parents pay for it, the ones that do do get screwed over bad, even to the point where some actually cook the main course for the reception. Of course the ones that don’t should be commended. After all, their kids aren’t kids anymore.

      1. Instructions that my daughter is receiving as well, especially when she fantasizes about wedding dresses.
        Her: *sigh* that’s so pretty
        Me: Neat. Hope you can afford one when the time comes.

        1. The wedding dress industry is no better then half the drug cartels out there. What a scam-olo they are. The government ought to just outright ban them. The idea that we allow a retailer to sell someone a piece of clothing for $10,000 that is worn on one day for maybe a maximum of eight hours is absolutely insane to any rationale actor. If the government can do its best to outlaw the tobacco companies it should do the same with the wedding dress cartel.

        2. The industry is certainly sick, yes, but it is only women’s irrationality that allows it to exist. Men’s formal clothing, the tux, can be bought for ~$200-$300 and up, just a bit more than average suit prices. And yet even then most men choose to rent them for the few occasions which require wearing a tux. A few men choose to buy them. And they can be worn over and over again to various occasions. But if tuxes cost $1,000, practically no men would own them. The fact that a woman will *buy* something that she needs to use for a few hours once at a price so exhorbitant it is downright amusing is proof of their utter lack of logic and reason.
          I suppose it made sense back in the day where one would pass down a wedding dress as a family heirloom, and all the granddaughters would wear grandmas dress, and the dress would actually have some meaning and history to it, and could help reinforce the gravity of the occasion, but these days I suppose the grandkids are all too plump to squeeze into what grandma wore in her corset. Not to mention, they have to be “original and unique” and pick out their own special snowflake costume.

        3. people are paying 10k for wedding dresses? i guess i’m not surprised. i wonder if there’s some way to get a wedding dress made overseas and sent to the US. my wife and i got married in central america, and her handmade dress was stunning and cost us $700, if i remember right. you’d have to pay to have a dress like that shipped to the US, but it seems like it would still be cheaper.

        4. “these days I suppose the grandkids are all too plump to squeeze into what grandma wore in her corset.”
          so depressingly true.
          a cousin of mine got married a few months ago. she’s always been a big girl, but she swelled up to staggeringly obese proportions in the weeks before the wedding. i was at my mom’s house with her and her fiance a few days before they got married. some female relatives were there visiting and they were all giddy about the upcoming wedding. i remember my cousin at one point doing that cocky black girl finger wagging thing (even though she’s white) and loudly proclaiming “if momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.”
          i looked over at her fiance, and the guy just looked miserable. he’s a pretty good-looking guy too, early 30s, normal weight, somewhat athletic looking, and i believe he has a decent job. i longed to pull him aside, show him some pics of my travels in eastern europe and latin america, and the girls in those countries, and to plead with him “please, please save yourself. it’s not too late, you don’t have to do this.”
          instead i did nothing.

        5. When a man allows himself to take it to that level pleading with him to make the right decision is nearly out of the question.

        6. …would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, JUST one chance! To come back here to tell our enemies, they may take our lives, but they’ll never take our FREEDOM!!!”

        7. What could you really do? If he didn’t listen to the little voice in his head screaming “Ruuuuunn!!”, he was already determined to “man up”… heh

        8. probably best that you didnt. If he went that close to the abyss then he’s well on his way to go.

        9. And there are the fucking “magazines” for weddings. They are 500 pages of advertisements on shit to waste your money.
          My mother and step father went though an ordeal when my step-sister decided to marry. It was too much DIY combined with a traditional, Western wedding.
          Next summer I will take my Chinese girlfriend to Canada, get engaged and maybe even make things official. On the one hand I want to give my girl a special day; on the other hand I don’t want to put my mother through that ordeal again. And I don’t want to break my wallet.
          Spending $10k on a wedding dress is bullshit. A traditional Chinese wedding dress can be had for less than $1000. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cac83a2591748908fcf7962e8e7e30c6b338ff4fe65d4c2669a9a2459ed4ea17.jpg
          After dropping several thousand on airfare, I don’t know how much to budget for the pomp and circumstance.

        10. Don’t know about prices in Canada, but you should be able to do something nice for around $30 a person. I place plenty of corporate catering orders that are just fine and come in less then that. For a bar just buy the beer, wine, and liquor yourself.

        11. But what is on the menu? Pasta? I doubt that thirty bucks a head would cover both the venue and the food.

        12. Venues are easy to find. Ask a relative that has a nice and large backyard or just book a public park. Community centers work well too. Some are nicer then private venues.
          You are right that the “tone” of a wedding does not set the ‘tone” for a marriage. Maybe years ago a grand send off and a ten thousand dollar honeymoon accomplished that, but that was when the wife started cracking out kids shortly after the celebrations and didn’t expect any further formalities.
          Just do what works for you and your situation. Getting married is just another day in your life. Don’t view it as anything else.

        13. Back in September I took my girlfriend on a weekend trip to Qingdao. It’s an interesting city on the ocean with a large German presence, so Tsingtao beer is the most famous in China. We took a walk along the beach and there were at least a dozen couples getting their wedding photos taken. Something about the ocean air makes people do crazy things I guess, lol.

        14. Most beach venues are also free to use. Just have your family and friends walk on to your favorite slice of the shore. No reservation even needed.
          I know of a few towns on the beach within a reasonable drive of where I live that even have gazebos they will rent for a few dollars for events. You can literally get married right next to the beach for what is a twenty dollar permit to use the facility.
          Getting married might be crazy (although I think most men will at least do it once, even if the marriage does ultimately fail) but maybe couples getting married by the beach were quite sane.

        15. I had a notion about Wasaga: longest fresh water beach in the world, but it’s a little out of the way. Sandbanks Provincial Park is close to where a bunch of my family lives.

        16. There are a lot of of worse deals in the world then getting married on a beach to a young woman that can dedicate the prime years of her life to you. Beats realizing that if want kids here in the West your best bet is an early 30’s washed up “career” woman who spent her 20’s hoping on and off the carousel.

      2. I largely think those who spend a bunch of money on a wedding are stupid. I get it if your family has to do it because of business or politics, but beyond that spending a ton of money on a party is just plain stupid.

        1. Basically, if you’re a royal and you’re trying a to have your Spanish daughter and her offspring inherit say, England, go for it. Otherwise, fuck it. Even Sheldon Cooper mentioned it in an episode.

        2. Don’t get me wrong. You can still do something nice without paying what is a down payment on a house for it. Most public parks have great facilities that can be rented for almost nothing (and some even have great outdoor views). Don’t tell the caterer it is for a wedding (because most jack up their prices for them) and you can have a good spread for around $30 a person. Why pay expensive bartenders when most people are more then happy to mix their own drink or grab their own beer from a cooler. Pandora is a better wedding DJ then most wedding DJs. A used wedding gown is usually just as good the second time it is worn as it was the first and a guy can get a nice suit which he can wear again for around $500. If you aren’t religious have a friend marry you and save on that too.
          I’ve been to $50,000 weddings before and I’ve been to $3,000 weddings before. The cheaper the wedding the more fun it usually is for all involved.

        3. A Portugese king once gave British king Charles II the isle of Trafalgar for Charles to allow one of his sons to marry one of the Portugese daughters. So there you go. Happened all the time.

        4. Yup. About a decade a go my best friend got married and the brides parents paid for princesses 25k wedding. 5 years later she changed her mind.

        5. And at one point Mary Tudor, AKA Bloody Mary, and half sister of the future Elizabeth I, did marry Philip II Of Spain, which could have resulted in an union of both realms. Never happened due to Mary dying and Elizabeth restoring the Church of England. But it makes us wonder the what ifs.
          Of course the Disney Princess narratives leave this out conveniently. In fact they leave out much fact, except, surprisingly, child marriage. If one thinks about it, for being a society that is supposedly opposed to child marriage and other forms of child sexual exploitation (and rightly so), American society does seem to subtly groom their little girls to do just that. In fact just look at your average Disney Princess. From Snow White to Sleeping Beauty to Tiana, most look like they haven’t even opened a pack of tampons yet, and already they’re thinking of marrying Prince Charming. Pretty troubling, especially considering most modern adult women who should know better still carry that princess mentality and end up being functional retards, so little can be expected of prepubescent girls. And consider this. Next time you go grocery shopping, observe families with teen girls. Either they’re on their phones texting, or looking around with an annoyed face and with their arms crossed instead of trying to learn the art of cooking.(Although, to be fair, and even Chad Hargrove wrote a good article about the subject for ROK, teen boys should start learning how to cook too, if only for the sake of survival.) So we see the start of a troubling pattern. To be fair, it may be messed up to hook up a 40 year old man with a 16 year old girls for marriage, but seeing the alternative, we might revert to that, since, as I mentioned, girls are being groomed to that end anyways. And seeing that the whole point of feminism was to empower girls to be functional members of society in the first place, which doesn’t seem to be working, at least not in the U.S., so what other choice do we have.
          The other no less important lesson we take from this is, if you’re an adult male and you marry a little girl, you’re a dirty pedophile and you’re going to Hell. Unless you’re either Prince Charming or Prince Eric, then you’re golden.

        6. Heck, might as well include anyone under 25. Reminds me of a story I saw on CBS News about a chap who makes six figures yet since he sent 2 of his kids to college on his own dime and now owes more than 100 grand. This is
          relevant to your point because for one, it is obvious that his kids depend on him too much at an age where they should at least handle basic stuff on their own, not to mention him wanting to live through his kids. Then there’s the worth these kids bring to a marriage, which is nil.

          In Latin American societies, there is still the concept of the quinceaneras, which means at 15 a girl becomes a woman. Of course in countries like Mexico, it means girls tend to be more on their own afterwards while in the U.S., Mexican families tend to do quinceaneras with a more, say, gringofied way, by focusing more on spending lavishly on the celebration itself, then still treating their girls like children.

        7. It certainly is not worth paying for a DJ when he is gonna play the same crap wedding reception fare, like the Chicken Dance. Yeah, what are you, 8? And God help you if you play that tripe in my own wedding reception. I kid of course. I’ll probably just hire a rock band and gave them play some punk and metal.

        8. I was at a wedding a few months ago and the groom just plugged in his laptop to the ballroom’s sound system. If someone wanted to make a request they just asked one of the friends to find the clip on Youtube and play it.
          The bride’s family purchased all of the alcohol and the contract bartenders said as long as they were getting tipped and could have “a beer or two” they would stay around all night long. The hall was a pretty nice community center that was $100 to rent for the night. The groom told me the entire cost was about $4,000 for everything.
          The only “downside” was you had to clean up after yourself. That wasn’t horrible as a few of us (completely hungover) stumbled down a few blocks from the hotel and put everything into trash bags and then the dumpster. Clean up time was an hour and if you helped out you got your pick of the leftover booze. (I took about $100 worth of higher end vodka).

        9. My little stepsister decided to tie the knot. Since I am at a distance, I could not help but here is the report from my mum:
          This wedding for Shayna and David took a great deal out of me.
          I haven’t been this tired since my baby making days. We had to shop for wedding clothes off the rack, since it takes 14 wks to order a dress.
          It was the wrong season for white shoes as well. The week of the wedding I shopped Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday for food.
          Then Wednesday evening was the rehearsal and I attended with Fern, so I could check out the kitchen facilities. Thursday we prepared the food and at 8:00 p.m. we went to set up the church. Only Fern & I, David & Shayna and Patrick showed up for the set up which took us 2.7 hrs. At the same time we brought all the food to the fridge. Friday, the day of the wedding, the cake and flowers needed to be picked up and delivered to the church, as well as make the punch to take. For such an unorganized event , it actually went fairly well but 17 people didn’t show up.
          At 11;00 p.m. the place had to have dishes scraped ,which two of the lady guests did to help, while Catherine(Shayna’s mother) sat and watched. We put them on trollies and took them to the kitchen. The next day Saturday at noon , we went back for the 2.75 hr. clean up.
          . . ..
          Hooray!!! we’re done with that event.

        10. I have heard a story that while the Dutch monarchy were in exile during WWII, Canada declared a patch of land to be part of Holland so that the princess could be born on her own soil.

        11. ”then still treating their girls like children.”
          Very inconsistent of them. Given the fact that if they are considered adults they should be treated with the dignity and responsibility that adults are given.

        12. I am assuming by the use of “mum” that this wedding took place in the UK. Events and event space over there are much different then most of the US (or at least they were 7-8 years ago when I would regularly travel to that country for work). Everything is just much more expensive over there and “bargain” solutions always seemed to be harder to find. Just by shopping at a big box store in America and having a little creativity you could create center piece for five to ten dollars a piece. I know that would just not happen over in the UK. The cost of doing anything formal is priced so high that the working class is essentially just priced out of the market.
          The idea it would take 14 weeks to get a wedding dress over here is hard to believe. Yeah if you wanted a fancy designer one custom fitted two times over maybe, but you can go to a David’s Bridle anywhere in the US and most likely find something that is fine and can be altered in a weeks time.
          Same with men’s clothing. Walk into a Men’s Wearhouse and you can literally walk out with a just fine tailored suit for a few hundred bucks.
          Likewise, you could put together catering in a matter of days for $30-40 a person. That would include set up and breakdown. A cake you can pick up with overnight notice at any major grocery store is as good if not better then the specialty bakery in town.
          It would hardly be a “bell of the ball” type wedding, but if you only had a few thousand dollars and a month to plan a wedding you could do it easily. I just don’t think you could do the same in the UK. The cost and scarcity of goods and services there is just too high.

        13. I have never really traveled to Canada so I couldn’t speak on the subject. I know though outside metro areas, especially above say 100 miles above the US border it gets pretty rural pretty quick. I’m sure services in many areas are few and far between (as well as people). Might explain the DIY aspect of the wedding.

        14. I have lived in Toronto and Vancouver. We are not just drawers of water and hewers of wood, lol. However, turn north or in between the cities and you get a different vibe.
          On the language front, I teach English. However, I teach American, British and Canadian English, so it is something of a mish-mash.

        15. They are in Trenton, population 20k It’s right on Lake Ontario, about half way between Toronto and Kingston.

        16. Weddings in general sound like giant pains. I get that there should be some pomp and circumstances for important life events such as a marriage, but our society has perverted the ceremonial aspect. Plus in a day and age where some people literally have half a dozen weddings in their lifetime what is really the point? It is no longer a “special day” when it happens every five or six years.

        17. I recall reading a study that said the amount you spend on your wedding and honeymoon are inversely correlated with you chance of divorce.

    2. Just as an aside..a buddy of mine who is a dentist told me some good info. Before thinking about getting married make sure you review your partner’s dental records. People don’t think to do it, but if your spouse needs a crown, implant, or even simple cavities filled, and you don’t have the proper insurance for it you’ll be paying thousands of dollars on someone else’s mouth. Compound that with loans or credit card debt and you could be looking at another salary EXITing the home.

      1. this goes double if you’re thinking of marrying someone from the former USSR. my russian ex needed over 10k of dental work unbeknownst to me before we got married because of an eating disorder and how badly the dentists in her country had screwed up her teeth.
        also, don’t marry women with eating disorders, unless maybe they show they are VERY serious about getting treatment. an eating disorder is like alcoholism, in that you can contain it with treatment and effort, but it never really goes away. i wasn’t aware of that either, before i married her.

        1. I guess it depends on the eating disorder. It’s not even that: I think most guys here can appreciate a skinny 99 pound piece of tail. It’s the underlying issues that trigger the problem. As far as I can tell it usually comes down to control issue or self-hatred.

        2. my ex was petite and looked great at around 99 pounds, at least initially. eventually though, her teeth started to rot, her hair started to fall out, and her skin went bad. that, and her mood swings got quite violent and hard to deal with. we mock eating disorders as a privileged white girl thing here, and maybe there’s something to that, but it’s definitely not something i would recommend living with long term, unless she’s really serious about fixing it.

        3. That sounds rather severe. My heart goes out to both you and her. None of my 99 pound bed mates had teeth, hair or skin problems.

        4. thanks, man. it was a long time ago, but still. the thing is, i think a 5’1 girl could be healthy at around 100 pounds, it would just take a good diet and exercise program (weights, yoga, etc.). i always wondered if bulimia was a way to get around the discipline required to do that.

    3. Man this is some hard hitting article. Expect a HUGE shitstorm from Indian Feminist.They are always gung ho about this.

    4. Dowery and Bride Price are two different things. With Dowery, the girl’s father pays money to the groom. With bride price, the groom pays the girl’s father the money.
      Dowery was traditionally practiced in Europe, and still is practiced in India.
      Bride Price was practiced in the Bible, and is still practiced in, Africa, Japan (and probably many other Asian and Middle Eastern countries.
      I believe that Bride Price is good while Dowery is harmful. Bride price motivates young men to make something of themselves financially. It also shows that they are able to take care of a family materially. It promotes chastity among young women since virgins got a lot and divorced women, whores, etc. got little to none. Bride Price elevates women of noble character.
      Dowery encourages young men to scrounge off their potential inlaws.
      By the way, my wife is Japanese, and her father graciously allowed me not to pay the Bride Price since I was a foreigner (American not familiar with their customs) and broke at the time (back in the late 1990s). I think Bride price in Japan runs $30,000-50,000 these days (though the family generally uses the money for the benefit of the young couple).

        1. If you read my comments, you will note that my wife is Japanese (and a very devout traditional Christian) not a modern western woman, and I did not pay the traditional bride price anyway.
          Call me a beta if you want, but no other man has ever touched my woman. The Biblical kings and patriarchs all paid bride price. David, Solomon, Jacob, Isaac, and many more. Solomon had a thousand wives, and was one of the wealthiestmen in history. That is not what I call a beta.
          True Alpha’s are men who make something of themselves, and care for the woman or women who belong to them. By the way, the Bible permits men to have more than one wife at the same time. Jacob, Gideon, Solomon, Moses, David, Abraham, Josiah, and many more godly men of old had multiple wives.

        2. John, I pretty much agree with you anyway, modern American/Canadian/Western European women generally aren’t worthy of the bride price. Feminists, harlots, whores, etc. don’t deserve a bride price. Women who think divorce is an option are not worthy either.
          On the other hand, you find a virgin, under 25, conservative Evangelical Christian girl who understands Biblical marriage (husband is the leader and she wants to follow him, submit to him, bear him children, cook good food for him, understands that the Bible permits men to practice polygamy, etc.), I’d give a bride price of $50,000 or even $100,000 in a heartbeat for her (as a man in my 40’s I could afford this). A woman like this understands that feminism is harmful and destructive. She understands that progressive statist governments are evil.
          In advocating for bride price (and also Biblical acceptance of polygamy), I am coming from more of a theoretical/hypothetical perspective, rather than a practical one. I think bride price helps make a better society, however it isn’t very practical in this curent Western cesspool of a culture.

        3. Sadly, many of the so-called alpha males on this website are basically the male-equivalent of a slut.

        4. Good point. A lot of guys want to run around sleeping with and then dumping a bunch of women. They then complain that all the women they know are sluts. They are no better.
          I’ve had sex with one woman in my life (my wife). She has slept with only one man (me). I never intend to have sex with any other woman unless I marry another (either in the unlikely case of polygamy, or if my wife were to die).
          I feel sorry for honorable young men such as yourself. Virtuous women are rare and hard to find today. Be a virtuous man, and demand virtue of any woman you consider marrying.

        5. Not all. Two girls who can actually fuck correctly, once a week apiece, I’m golden. I’ll even stick with the same two for months, no problem. I don’t need to prove numbers to anyone. The truth is if you’re playing numbers mathematically the standards are gonna have to come down a bit in order to meet the monthly quota. I believe even Roosh said in “Bang” 3 of 10 you approach going further than the initial approach was “pretty good”. This is only 30% who will continue to talk to you, not necessarily 30% you do or will want to bang.

        6. Bear in mind, just because polygamy isn’t prohibited doesn’t mean it isn’t most unwise.
          David and Solomon learned that the hard way.
          Also, I don’t think Moses or Abraham had multiple wives. Hagar doesn’t count.

      1. Indeed, I am at the age when I am to buy myself my own car, but alas, the new car parking lot is almost empty.
        On the other hand, the used car parking lot is jammed packed. To make matters worse, many of those cars are demanding FULL price!
        Why the hell should I pay full price for a used car?
        And if the previous driver of the car got to drive/ride around for FREE, why the hell should I pay anything at all?!
        Please note that I am speaking metaphorically, NOT literally; contrary to some accusations I’ve received, I am NOT objectifying anything.

        1. Good point Myron. You are quite right in your assessment.
          By the way, Jesus Christ, the King of kings, Lord of lords, God with us, Creator, Sustainer, Redeemer, and Ruler of all things paid the ultimate Bride Price when He bought a people for Himself with His lifeblood on the cross. He bought His Bride (the church, all Christians throughout all time) when He died to save them from sin, death, hell, and the wrath of God. We Christians did not deserve this Gift of love. (we were not pure, beautiful,or good) Somehow, Christ’s love makes His people become pure, beautiful, holy, and good.
          Christ is the ultimate Alpha (and Omega). Every knee will bow before Him. Every person who has ever lived, or ever will live, will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. All Christ’s people will worship Him forever, and all His enemies will be crushed under His foot and be brought to ultimate ruin in the eternal lake of fire.

      2. I have a Chinese girl who had a falling out with her parents. It really sucks. They have control of her savings and won’t give her a dime of it since she moved out of their home. So I am paying full freight.
        The dowery was intended to belong to the woman, although her husband would manage it. If he died or fucked off then the dowery was supposed to be there to take care of her.
        Similarly, the bride price is intended for the benefit of the girl, but in that case her parents are given the money.
        The tradition of giving an engagement ring only came about in the 1920s or so. Guys wanted to shack up and fuck their bride to be before the wedding. So girls said “My virgin squawk is worth at least 3 month of your income.” Diamonds are probably the most compact form of wealth. If the guy backed out then then girl kept the ring as compensation for her lost purity.
        I am a sucker for traditions. I dropped $6000 on a ring.

        1. Friend, I will pray for you but I implore you to pray for yourself. Pray for guidance, only ask for guidance nothing more. I have and the “messages” I received helped me through the darkest hours of my life.

        2. I had turned from it until the sudden death of my girlfriend on Dec 8, 2014 who had been to that point recovering well from a bone marrow transplant last August. Evidently medicine can completely fuck up and miss it metastasizing in your liver for six months -after they said they killed it with chemo- and by that time its oopsie we sorry but you be fucked. Go medical science! My best friend explained to me on Saturday the 13th after the burial I was going with him to church the next day whether I liked it or not. Been back ever since.

        3. My thoughts are with you. My best friend in Vancouver had his lover suicide on him, and he found her body. I think it turned him gay. Either way, it completely messed with him.

        4. Thanks. That’s heavy, I hope your friend can eventually get his shit together. One thing I have come to realize is Christianity, even if parts of it were off, is really the most positive mainstream religion excluding anything Eastern I am simply not familiar with enough to comment. We know what the “religion of peace” produces and on the whole its more of a political system masquerading as a faith. I recently heard the Pharisee religion, calling itself Judaism, referred to as the “religion of death” which sounds appropriate. I might add its more a religion of Man since so much of it focuses on their Babylonian Talmud a 22-volume work written by and for rabbis completed around the year 800 AD. We know what imperfect man worshiping himself tends to produce. True Christianity attempts to bring out the best in people, it can with you too.

        5. I work with a guy who had a baby with a Vietnamese woman she wanted a $10k ring from him – you guessed it he ditched her no woman is worth a ring of that value commonsense tells us money of that amount to the average person can go further than a piece of metal and a gem.

        6. That “3 month(s) of your income” stuff is an invention of the De Beers diamond cartel, it is not a tradition or custom.

        7. You are correct on the 3 month guideline, but the general custom still arose out of western guys wanting to fuck their virgin bride while the latter wanted some financial security in the case of a pump and dump.
          Nobody really gives a shit anymore. Odds are you get a 29 year old guy and a 27 year old girl who has already fucked and sucked a basketball team worth of guys. Society simply doesn’t value virginity anymore.
          Neomasculinity is something of an exception but it has the split personality of purveying game and promoting the idea of fucking skanky bitches.
          In theory, I support “no hymen, no diamond” but as a practical matter, it just doesn’t work.

  3. Curiously enough, dowry still exists, except it’s reversed. Of course now you give gold and expensive stones, in the form of an engagement ring. Plus it’s the bride’s parents who now have to sustain the marriage, to begin with the wedding itself.

  4. some sociologists fear that an entire generation is choosing to opt out of marriage

    It is intuitive to copy the pointless rhetorics of boulevard magazines and ill-recherched newspapers. It is nevertheless moronic. ‘Some sociologists fear’. So what if they fear it? Who are those sociologists? What qualifications do they have? What does it matter what they feel? Why do they fear this?
    I know I am nitpicking, but hey, language is meant to convey information and that sentence conveys none.

  5. Rapists would be required to pay the dowry of a woman they violated, and if debts were unpaid, you went to debtors prison.

    This practice had its roots in the Old Testament. Interestingly enough, the penalty for rape is not only having to pay a dowry, but a rapist must pay for the maintenance of his victim all the days of his life.

        1. Now that I think of it … is it not interesting that the feminist’s way to prohibit rape is to create consent forms, but never to increase the severity of punishment? Strikes me as some kind of dishonest intent there. Like … you know, like it is ALMOST right, but something just does not fit into the picture. What do they really want?

        2. They really want to shame “hot” men into commitment and punish betas for taking “advantage” of a womans slutty behavior while she is intoxicated or emotionally compromised. All of those are literally rape, hot guy not committing after you banged him, rape. Fucking a Beta because hot guy won’t commit and you are upset? Rape.

        3. If you ask me, it is much simpler. Frustrated people who are ashamed of their sexuality want to ‘free’ all others from its evil shackles. Abolish sex.

        4. I think they really just want the power. They want to enjoy being dominated at the time, but then a few years later like that pornstar Deen or Bill Cosby they want to have the power to shame and destroy them years in the future.

        5. I hadn’t thought about this. But actually yes, all those former actresses that Cosby shagged are washed up and unknown. And the shelf life of a pornstar can be measured with a stopwatch. So yes they are probably doing the same thing Bruce Jenner is–whatever they can to grab attention.

      1. Hey, it kept true rapists at bay.
        And false accusations (like the ones feminists love spouting) were also punished harshly.
        Biblical law works both ways.

  6. In the early 80s my mother’s family paid a small amount of money, an antique cabinet, an old TV, several jars of dried medicinal herbs, and a whole roasted pig stuffed with fake coins as dowry.
    You think I’m joking, but I’m not
    It’s much rarer these days though

    1. whole roasted pig stuffed with fake coins as dowry
      – is your family from Taiwan because I heard of something like that going on there

  7. Good idea, and I agree that we need to reinstate traditional ideas of marriage and courtship in our society. However, a lot of work is going to have to be done first before we can really consider reinstituting the dowry.

  8. Adding a dowry to modern marriage again without significantly changing the culture of feminism would only mean that both the father AND the groom will be divorce raped when the time comes. Chick gets money and stuff from dad, marries, divorces, takes half of the groom’s money and makes off with dad’s contributed dowry.
    Um, yeah….

      1. I won’t answer that question, since you asked me not to, but am posting to say that I would answer that question in a way we all understand would actually happen IF you’d asked me to answer that question.

  9. I’m ok with bringing back the dowry but there are other old Indian institutions we should leave well alone. The British abolished sooty for example for a reason. It was cruel and inhumane and I hope it never returns

      1. Don’t watch it for gods sake. It’s a pun!
        The British abolished two evil and godless institutions with a phonetically similar name. You have experienced one of them. Not necessarily the lesser of the two evils

  10. “Indeed, fully one third of this code details rules for marriage, divorce, inheritance, and sexuality. The code states: “If a woman quarrel with her husband, saying ‘You are not congenial to me’, the reasons for her prejudice must be presented. If she is guiltless, and there is no fault on her part, but he leaves and neglects her, then no guilt attaches to this woman, she shall take her dowry and go back to her father’s house.””
    I’m sorry but this is incorrect, with specific regard to the word” Marriage.”
    Regarding the word itself:
    The etymology of the word didn’t come about until sometime during the 11th century, when the catholic church sought to create a definition for the holy unions as described in the bible. (maritatus, maritaticum, etc) The code of Hammurabi and the earlier Code of Ur-Nammu make no mention of the word “Marriage” for the obvious reason of the word not having been created yet, so it was up to historians to interpret relative examples as “Marriage” since it was similar to contemporary examples of the word. As anyone with any discernment knows however, similar does not mean exactly the same.
    Regarding the definition:
    The words/examples interpreted as “Husband” and “Wife” have also been mistranslated to mean what we normally come to associate with Marriage, however since slavery was also a common practice in both codes with regard to the similar YET different union within Mesopotamian culture, it’s farcical to assume that their version of “Marriage” and of course “Husband/Wife” is the same as that which we come to understand today. A Man literally “owning” a Woman isn’t really a Husband but more akin to a slave master. If we are to take every example in history of these types of arrangements to be Marriages, then we only serve to take a lazy approach that categorizes things in terms of similarity, regardless of the accuracy.
    This is also the reason why people tend to think that the Hebrew words for “slavery” meant that Hebrews enslaved themselves, not realizing that bondmen and women were not actually slaves even if ownership was considered par for the course per the voluntary agreement.
    One could make the case that an employer today “owns” you because of work, if one wanted to make a similar (and no less ridiculous) argument than those who believe ancient Marriage is the same as the one we come to understand today, to say nothing of the latter which the US formally adopted and recognized as Marriage.

    1. Good point. Tacitus does this to the Germanics and Celts, regarding
      their gods, that is, names them as Roman gods based on similarties.
      This is a convenient shorthand for transmitting basic understanding but
      it does cut out a lot of nuance that would be required in order to truly
      understand the subject(s).
      Wife was pretty common by the Roman empire times though, the English word “woman” came to us from the Anglo-Saxons in foreverago times putting together their word for wife and man, wife-man…woman.

      1. Indeed. The passage of time (which is in itself based on interpretation of what happens inside it and not outside of it) allows for errors in historical interpretation to take place, which then gets further cemented as it becomes a part of the official historical record and gets taught to people as part of a school’s curriculum.
        Who’s to say that a thousand years from now (assuming anyone is alive of course) historians won’t say this about the US, given how loud, how frequent, how fanatic and how prolific the prog left is:
        “The US was populated by many peoples from all around the world. It became dominated by Whites thanks to the enslavement of Native Americans and the subjugation of Blacks and other minorities. Thanks to muslims and other immigrants, this was finally rectified with Barack Obama’s revolutionary presidency.”

        1. *If* the US exists for many more decades, the “domination by whites” will have been only a blip in its history. US culture rose post WW1, peaked around WW2 (a short period indeed) and the white domination was over sometime in the early 21st century. So it’s more likely this period will just be ignored or forgotten or distorted.

        2. I vote for the “distorted” part. They can’t just ignore Whites, they have to make sure you’re hated for as long as people are alive to hate.

        3. U.S. culture didn’t rise in WW1, it existed from the start. WW1 was the beginning of the end as classical liberals were slaughtered en masse, post WW2 were the remnants happily living in an unsustainable utopia, their kids spawned and then them and their kids turned this into MultiKult central.

        4. Yes, that’s an important distinction. WW1 was indeed the beginning of the end of western civilization. Murica began to rise in prominence after WW1 and was the dominant world leader from the time of WW2 to 200?-something. The entire western European culture (including the US) was indeed declining as WW1 started. So it was really a question of which society declined faster at that point.

  11. Religious scriptures had the grooms side paying the brides side the dowry. What is this twisted shit about men paying the women? We already have this kind of dowry setup when the men get ass-raped in divorce court.

  12. Keep in mind that usually when dowry was practiced, your relatives( usually your patriarchal father) controlled everything from the courtship through the marriage process. Simply choosing who you wanted to marry was pretty non existent unless you were on the dominant tier of the oligarchy.
    I’m just saying I think that if we brought the practice of the dowry back, it’s somewhat likely we would return to arranged marriages. The difference between now and then, the feminist welfare state would have no reason to step in and regulate it. But extended family WOULD step in. I’m sure arranged marriages had their miseries like all marriage does. But I have trouble seeing how it could possibly be worse than the institutionalized joke of the family unit we know today. Just speculation on my part, I haven’t really thought it all through so take those last two paragraphs of mine with a grain of salt.
    The marriage ceremony itself was once a somewhat of a somber, reverent occasion that centered on the bride and groom’s dedication, loyalty, and duty to the contract, and the alliance between entire extended families. If you have a wedding in one of the usual churches (no not a Vegas chapel) they won’t even allow you to take pictures of the actual ceremony. A holdover from those times.
    Now weddings have just become a a bridal centered cluster fuck in which she engages in an extended, unadulterated shopping spree that culminates in an emotional masturbation session in front of 1700 Facebook friends for as long as possible. If the guy doesn’t show up drunk, he’s doing it wrong.

    1. Arranged marriages were mostly just an aristocratic thing where two powerful families agreed to marry one family’s daughter to the other family’s son, thus combining their wealth and power, securing a political alliance or ending a mutually destructive war. These were the cases where the bride and groom concerned had no say. For the lowly peasants, it wasn’t as much of an issue. Sure, extended family might have offered opinions, but if Mildred daughter of Jonathan Yeoman insisted on marrying William (the Black)Smith instead of her family’s preference of Godswill Cobbler, then no big deal.

  13. “While one must chuckle at the attempts to use logic and reason in dealing with female behaviors,”
    ROFL, this made me laugh out loud. Lines like these, sprinkled through articles, are why I love ROK

  14. Most people just do not understand the magnitude of the state of affairs that exist today. Never before, in the history of mankind, has there ever existed a society where people paid for degenerates of this earth to breed and reproduce. Today, a degenerate female can choose to go have 5 kids if she wants and not get married nor have any involvement with a man other than for the few minutes of sperm donation. Thereafter, she will have no problem whatsoever being able to house, clothe, feed, and provide healthcare for her fatherless degenerate offspring. And YOU pay for it by proxy through taxes and inflation. This is the THIEVERY of your dowry. Literally. It’s done by proxy. Read further to find out WHO made it this way.
    We had dowry’s and traditional marriage because historically we lived under natural law and under natural law it was a man’s world. God made it that way. Today, something happened that is downright diabolical. It was the emergence of a luciferian central banking system based on debt that was ushered into western civilization that gave power to the luciferian joos to begin implementing the sick reality we live in today. Through usury from a debt based banking system, massive amounts of fake currency could be diverted into establishing “equal rights”, affirmative action, and EEO laws that enables females to obtain corporate jobs with huge salaries OR steal money from a collective society to subsidize her whoredom lifestyle through welfare. Luciferian joos are molding this society into what THEY want. Wall Street is run on debt which means corporations are run on debt which means salaries are paid with money that has no instrisic value whatsoever which enables corporations to add females to a payroll since most jobs are desk jobs anyhow: (sales, accounting, human resources, management, etc.) <—these jobs never existed before in human history and are jobs that a women can be paid fiat debt based currency to hold. That fiat currency which makes up a female’s paycheck, then can be used to purchase property.
    At the very root of things, when you look at the overall big picture, it truly does go back to what Jesus said when he was speaking to the luciferian pharisees, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” <—- fiat currency, of which is artificial, is also a lie. Which means, the economic backbone of this current society is based on one big lie. This allows for women to live in a way never seen before in human history. They can be rewarded by society for being a whore and having sex outside of marriage. Since women have laws on their side created by luciferian joos through their debt based fiat currency system, they can now choose what losers they want to have sex with, date, and marry. Women’s brains are so irrational, that when given the ability to be able to choose who they want to reproduce with, they’ll choose some drug addict “bad boy” with a low IQ that is incapable of even holding down a job. Why? Because those women can already hold down jobs of their own, acquire property on their own, and live on welfare if they need to. None of which is really under their own power, but the power granted to them by proxy through the luciferian debt based jooish system we have today that established the laws stealing marriage, family, and daughters away from men. The central banking system we have today is a PRIVATE banking system made of up PRIVATE shareholders of whom acquire their earnings on massive loans to the US government and then paid back with interest from fiat currency that is literally printed up or produced in electronic format. They can use this fake wealth to fund special interest groups (feminist) and finance liberal politicians, judges, and lawmakers. You will not find any Christians/Catholics that make up the board of the federal reserve. You will not find any true Christians that are the big players in Wall Street or sit at the board level of large corporations. <—these are luciferian organizations.
    Luciferianism rebels against God. Luciferianism wants the order to be the reverse of what God created. What would be the reverse of what God created? A matriarchal society, and NOT a patriarchal one. That’s why women have more advantages and special rights today than men do. Because we are living in a matriarch and most do not even understand that.

    1. We’re not only living in a matriarchy in the west but the social order is one of polyandry (opposite of polygamy where one woman has many men). Women don’t actually marry multiple men concurrently, but often times one single woman will acquire property and blood moneys paid by each successive man she divorce rapes. The typical trailer park queen has diamond rings on all fingers and a slew of cadillacs strewn on the premisis from all the dead or disposessed husbands she’s ‘black widowed’. And all compliments of some local bitch tribe robo judge. It’s still all polyandry by default.
      Matriarchy in humans is un natural. Only the bee or ant species is naturally matriarchal with large numbers of smaller expendable worker or warrior beta males who serve the the queen egg sack. The insect ‘queen’ has lifelong fertility WHEREAS human mammalian females lose their fertility at half life. It is a futile exercise of destructive self contortion and is completely ALIEN for mammalian humans to attempt to live under any form of insectoid bitch order.
      We have ‘queen’ titles in royalty but they are counterfeit queens. Humans must never obey or serve any counterfeit insectoid bitch queen (Genteel queens like Beatrix, Elizabeth and the poor Jews are up to their neck in ‘princesses’). Welfare breeding mares (mothers) are often referred to as ‘project queens’ and they display the same pattern of the insect species by having many bastard children sired by a number of different beta males. The term ‘motherfucker’ doesn’t actually mean someone who actually ‘fucks’ their dear mother, NO it referrs to the beta males that get a bottle of ripple and then serenade the project welfare ‘mothers’ when they’re in heat. They fuck the welfare ‘mothers’. Thus they become lowly ‘motherfuckers’. Don’t call them ‘mofo’s’. Just say ”you’re a BUG man. You a lowly insect BUG playing cuck daddy to those stupid ho’s”.
      In the west, the whore mothers are likened to the insect ‘queen’ egg sacks with their multiple beta orbiters. These human female ‘queens’ live under defacto polyandry under the state which polices the males. The welfare state is therefore itself a ‘bitch mother’ force superceding the minor ‘queen’ whores and orchestrates policing the males as well. The bitch queen state acts as a big tit to the subservient males and the state empowers the females to collectively act as its big pussy trap for big sis, the queen bitch state. The state is clearly a female force, not fertile but more like a sterile, post menopausal queen bitch, and counterfeit one at that. THE STATE IS A BIG POST WALL BITCH.

    2. Interesting analysis, except for the part on Jews. Jews are by no means in control of the financial system or leading the luciferian elite – this is only a stupid (and old) myth that is pushed on us to divert the attention from the real enemies.

  15. You guys could just leave America. Don’t bring the Dowry back to the states – marriage isn’t even all that important here anymore. Americans have too many options and people fall in and out of love all the time. Secondly, this will never be a thing. Thirdly, you’re putting marriage/females on a pedestal. Unless you want all females to be miserable, forever.

  16. We could make our society more natural with a few simple steps that aren’t even real social engineering:
    – stop all ‘positive discrimination’ (affirmative action)
    – No welfare if you didn’t earn that right by paying (income) taxes.
    – No palimony. You keep what you own. Would end divorce rape for once and for all. Marriage should be a spiritual thing, not a financial connection to one another.
    – Stop subsidies for everything (Europe is subsidy-king, believe me)
    – No child benefits (stay with your man or else…)
    In the end, women then would need to go out to look for a man to take care of them, because without daddy government and its anti-male laws women would be as powerless socially as they are physically, with only looks and a pussy to barter.

    1. So many alt-right wingers make it sound like we need the government to force morality on everybody. Simply take away the gibsmedat(both welfare and divorce bullshit) and so many issues fade away on their own.

      1. The problem is that that a natural state of doing things is impossible if shame isn’t an included factor. We can’t say to women: “there is no welfare if you pop out a kid and daddy isn’t there”. The kid is in the end helpless. Only shaming a mother who made a bad decision (fucking a deadbeat) could help. But in this day and age single motherhood is so common, it’s even praised.
        So it’s not going to happen. What could make a big difference in our society is a male contraceptive. It’s stupid to count on the honesty of a woman for birth control, especially when you know that around 25> she is susceptible to trapping you into fatherhood. Giving men the control of reproduction is a game changer for sure and it will happen eventually.
        Meanwhile marriage rates will decrease and more and more women will find out that being 18-25 and going on Tinder dates is fun, but being alone at 40 because you had such high standards really sucks.
        Our western society is a degenerate one. We laugh at pair-bonds and treat them like they are replaceable when we want to. (Especially women do this, thinking they’ll stay forever young and attractive.) Like we can change a partner as we change an iPhone when the first dents and scratches appear. We have less and less children because we want our financial freedom. Meanwhile, the Muslims have devoted marriages (around 21-26) and pooping out twice the amount of kids we do. Divorce in their culture is a shame and their women don’t ride the CC until age 32 (five minutes before the last egg dries out)
        I have been watching if this graph from Rollo Tomassi makes any sense. But as far as I can see it does also for European women to a large extent. Somewhere around 28 women get the realization the party won’t go on indefinitely. Looks start to deteriorate, time to find a guy for the long run. And then when they can’t find one they’ll complain, maybe even panic and do stupid things (getting knocked up by some guy to fulfill the biological imperative)
        She should have actively looked to find a man during her early twenties. Building a relationship costs time. No good bond is formed within less than 4 or 5 years. So if you start looking at 27 or 30, how likely will it be that a guy will want to impregnate a woman who he knows for less than 2 years? I don’t want to do that, I guess no man wants to.
        So the problem is a false sense of the biological timewindow for reproduction women (and to a smaller extent men) have. This belief is created from childhood by the media with it’s world of celebrities looking young longer with the help of Botox and plastic surgery. Also the idea of how a relationship should look like is distorted which creates unsatisfactory experiences when confronted with reality. Marketing, the other side of the media (instant gratification and consumer society) plays and integral part in all of this. The absence of morals then finishes the job. Lastely we have technology which caters to women’s hypergamous nature and has a great impact on the psyche regarding qualities such as: devotion, honesty and respect for both one self and the other.
        I don’t mind all of this. It’s nature. I already know the red pill made me a bitter young man of not even 30 years old. But I don’t care with reality as long as anti-male laws are absent. So no more palimony, alimony, subsidies. Lower the taxes. Society will go back to normal eventually.

  17. “It was allowed that a husband could have sexual relations with a maid provided by the wife, and concubines were almost equal to wives, with the caveat that the first wife always had priority.”
    Not bad ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  18. I had a hard time making up my mind if dowry was a good idea. Until I saw reason number 7. Now I am convinced.

    1. Reminds me of Game of Thrones. A rich old guy has lots of daughters, and tells somebody “whichever daughter you marry, you may have her weight in gold”. Next episode you see him walking home with a 250lb hambeast.

  19. In matriarchal cultures where the woman is pedestalized, there are customs similar to dowry, but they are reversed.
    The Roma Gypsy groom pays the bride’s family for the ‘loss’ of their daughter. Negotiations for her ‘price’ can be lengthy. The brides father has to calculate the entire cost his daughter incurred on the family from birth and then he calculates his loss of income that the daughter could have made the family in the future doing tasks such as peddling, dancing and stripping.
    Not quite selling a daughter as if she were shares of stock in a company like the Gypsies do, the jews have ‘mohar’ and ‘mattan’ which date waay back to Genisis. ‘Mohar’ is the REVERSE of dowry where the groom’s father pays someone to take his son away. He ‘marries him off’ to a jewess. It seems it might feel a little castrating to think about it that way, but oh well. Circumcision isn’t fully castration. But they’re matriarchal as hell nonetheless. Then they have ‘mattan’ which are gifts that the groom himself gives the bride and her family. In Genisis, Issac gave not only Rebekah jewelry, but Rebekah’s brother and mother received jewelry as well. Jewish women were known for wearing all their stored wealth as jewelry on their person since thieves would take it if left at home. Jewish women wore many layers of clothing to conceal the valuables worn and carried on the body. They also invented the head scarf to conceal necklaces and head jewelry.

    1. I was wondering about that when the author mentioned the story of Jacob. My memory’s rusty, but from what I remember Jacob had to pay Laban to marry Laban’s daughter Rachel. Jacob had no money so instead worked on Laban’s land for 7 years as payment. Then Laban tricked Jacob into marrying Rachel’s sister Leah instead and so Jacob had to work another 7 years to earn Rachel’s hand. Seems like a case of “Groom pays bride’s father” rather than the reverse.

      1. Very minor technical point. Jacob had to Promise to work another 7 years, and as soon as the wedding feast with Leah was over, he was married to Rachel. So, he was married to both during the last 7 years of work. Rachel was hot; Leah was not.

  20. My entire wedding came to less than $ 500. The biggest cost was the $250 I gave my pastor followed by the gluten free wedding cake which was $100. The remaining amount went to buying lunch for my bride and both of our parents.
    For our engagement I bought her a brand new set of Finnish studded snow tires. She didn’t complain in the least. That was a good sign. Had she – I would have nexted her.

  21. A bit of trivia. The dowry in Thailand goes the other way. The man pays the bride’s family compensation for the loss of their daughter. The practice is called Sin Sod. Modern Sin Sods can reach $30k+ in the upper-class Chinese-Thai groups.

  22. Agree with the quote. Traditional marriage was 1st of all a deal between a man and the bride’s father(With the father taking consideration of his daughter preferences of course)
    It does not involve however a man getting on his knees and saying “Will you marry me” because such a custom involves worship of the woman and putting pussy on a pedestal:

  23. It is a tradition in India but a lot of guys abuse it. You have a sweet, successful Indo-Canadian girl and someone back in the Punjab hooks her up with some guy who wants his green card. The family forks over a wad of cash, the guy flies to Vancouver and promptly ditches the girl and makes off with the dowry. IMHO that sort of guy should be hunted down and emasculated.

  24. LOL, you can forget about the dowry ever coming back in the USA! I cannot imagine how fast a law would be passed making it illegal, if there is not already one in place. However, it would be priceless to see the look on Feinstein, Murray, Hillary, and all the feminist pols in Amerika contemplating the thought of making a dowry legal in the USA 😉

  25. Hi everyone. I was hoping to get some help from the masculine men of this site. It would greatly be appreciated 🙂
    I’m a 23 year old women from the US and having a hard time with dating. I’m feminine, have traditional values, saving myself til marriage, and keep up with my appearance and very sweet.
    All of the dates I go on go well until I tell him I believe in remaining pure til marriage….They all say they cant be in a relationship without sex. It makes me so sad because I really want to get married and honor my future husband with my purity, and glorify God this way. But it just seems like guys aren’t into that these days. I don’t know what to do. Please help

  26. This site teaches men how to hook up with women, and yet it also says that women should be pure. How does that work?
    Women also took on a burden by marrying a man. She would have to run a household, which is a ton of work. A true home requires a lot of work to keep lovely and comfortable

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