ROK Undercover: What It Was Like To Spend A Day At A Mormon Church

It’s often said that the west is full of garbage and that men should seek high quality women elsewhere.  While I agree, it’s also true that most of the ROK readership currently lives in America.  While I’m here in between trips abroad, I mostly avoid local women. But if there is a place where acceptable women may be found, it should be in religious households.

In my first column, I acknowledged religion has been infiltrated and undermined, and described my fruitless attempts at finding a decent woman at a religious retreat, but there are those who still cling to the idea that an extremely conservative religion could produce a decent American female.  In the interest of you, dear reader, I have attended services at three conservative religious groups.  Part 1 of this series follows.



Mormon Tabernacle, Utah

My knowledge of Mormons originated from three sources: the socially awkward prudish Mormon girl I knew in middle school, South Park, and the HBO series Big Love.  The Mormon church was founded in the 1800s by Joseph Smith, and Mormons follow the holy text of the Bible, as well as the Book of Mormon, a revelation by Joseph Smith.  Mormons believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected, as told in the Bible, and then reappeared in ancient America, where he visited white-skinned Native Americans before Heavenly Father turned them red.

Mormons are extremely family oriented.  They are very clean, and often talk like Ned Flanders.  They use cute-sy words in place of regular profanities like Darn, Baloney Sandwich, Fudge, Dangit, Heck, and Oh Golly!


HBO’s Big Love depicts Mormon plural marriage, and the pros and cons of being the breadwinning patriarch

Despite Mormons being a very evangelical church (members are expected to devote periods of their lives to a mission, where they are sent to work full time for the church at no salary, and currently have over 74,000 active full time missionaries), it was the one place where I was not greeted as a visitor.  Nor did their web site offer any helpful information to visitors, other than an address and time of service.  Perhaps they are simply not used to people showing up uninvited.

The church is somewhat secretive, and there are certain rules one must follow.  There are regional temples, which only certain members can enter, and I would not be allowed in.  Then there are several wards, which are very similar to Protestant church sanctuaries.  I attended service at one of six or so wards in the area served by my temple.  The service consisted of a couple of hymns, a brief message by the Priest, and the majority of the time was Testimonies given by the congregation.


The congregation is seated in pews, and there is a small group of older men dressed like conservative bankers sitting at the front.  They are leading the service.  The implication is a very strong message of patriarchy, and respect for elders and authority.  The Bearing of Testimonies included about 45 minutes of men, women, and children coming up and describing the ways their faith was playing out in their lives.

Around 90% of these people were on the verge of tears, whether it was a sad story or not.  At first I found this quite odd and somewhat weak, but Mormons are extremely passionate about their faith and attribute this to the Holy Spirit touching their hearts.  This was not as boring as it seemed, and I actually found it more interesting than hearing a guy drone on in a sermon for half an hour.


Date night with a Mormon girl

The stories were from a diverse group of topics.  One woman spoke about how she had kept herself busy in the days that the temple was closed to the public, and how excited she was when it finally reopened so she could visit it.  Another woman plead with the youth to not fall to temptation and have premarital sex because you will regret it for the rest of your life, along with stories about how her heathen friends were slutting around and were very sad and embarrassed in their lives.

A man stood up and talked about preparing a spare room for a fellow friend facing bad times, and they prepared the best room in the house for him.  A thin attractive feminine girl who appeared to be 16 came up and announced she and her husband had just moved to this ward from Utah and were excited to rejoice with Heavenly Father.


Mormon Temple Garments

Another woman got up and talked about how she was so happy to be a mother and grandmother and how it’s bad that some women are beginning to question the patriarchy and demand priesthood for females.  There was one moment of cringe when a parent brought her child up and whispered things into her ear to repeat verbatim “I love Heavenly Father and Joseph Smith is the true prophet.”


Typical Mormon Temple (different from regular service in a local ward)

The stories reinforced the faith quite well, and indeed if one was a member of this group, I think it would be relatively easy to reject many of the sinful traits.  There is a lot of quilting and genealogy research and singing and playing board games that Mormons do together.  I had a Mormon boss once, and he was a super swell guy.  Many finance companies set up offices in Utah because the Mormons are renowned for their honesty.

One of the principle beliefs in the faith was plural marriage, with the holy texts damning you to hell if you did not believe and practice it, and though the church did fight this, they eventually caved in to US government pressure around the time Utah became a state, and stated that God told them this was no longer important.  The church splintered, with fundamentalists continuing to follow this teaching, while others fled the US oppression to Mormon settlements in Mexico and Canada.  The US government oppressed this religion with many laws targeting the church, and even unseated Mormon elected Senators to the US Senate purely because of their religious beliefs.

Marriage is taken extremely seriously, and is referred to as “sealing” which has a very permanent connotation.  There are church-led Young Single Adult Family Home Evenings which are designed to pair up young single Mormons so they can marry and procreate.


Mormons are a great example of people looking after their tribe.  I’m not sure I would want to be Mormon, but the world would undoubtedly be a better place if there were more Mormons.  However, the Mormon story is somewhat dubious and the fact that they changed vital church doctrine like polygamy, combined with a short history, makes me wonder if they will not cave to demands of the corrupt outside world at some point.

Also some of their beliefs like the inherent goodness of white skin, magic pajamas, and some cult-like behavior don’t hold up to scrutiny.  I saw a Spanish service advertised, which I may return to in the future.  Mexico was exposed to Mormonism and I have a strong affinity for Hispanic women; a chaste latina would make for an interesting mix.



  • Very patriarchal
  • Very positive, happy religion
  • Value purity and strongly reject promiscuity
  • Nominally Christian; moderately accepted in West


  • Dubious beliefs
  • Prohibitions on alcohol, caffeine, and other intoxicants
  • Caved on some of their major principles (LDS in USA)
  • Somewhat unaccepted in mainstream culture
  • Probably the most hostile to the ideas of “game”


The Mormons are a very conservative family oriented community.  Mormons take the teachings of Jesus to heart, and are quite kind, helpful, happy people.  They shun alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, or anything else that comes between you and Heavenly Father, which includes sloots.  Get ready for lots of board games, bible trivia, PAX TV, trips to Utah, and hanging out with the extended church family.  Your friends will likely be other homeschooling Mormons.

But the payoff is an extremely submissive wife who knows that her eternal salvation depends on fulfilling her motherly and wifely duties so that one day you can have endless celestial sex among the gods.  Expect a Mormon girl to barely know what a penis or vagina is, but to do anything that her Priesthood holder (you) tells her.  Don’t expect to casually date a Mormon if you are not Mormon.  Also, the only single women I saw were in middle or high school.

Read More: What To Do If You’re Accused Of Sexual Harassment At Work

369 thoughts on “ROK Undercover: What It Was Like To Spend A Day At A Mormon Church”

      1. “Will not be surprised to see a demise of mormonism”
        I would imagine the elites are coming up with a strategy tailored to destroy the mormon church. Hopefully the Mormon high command is aware of what is going on and making their members privy to it all.

        1. Maybe. But given the progression of the fact that the manhood ritual of exclusively young men that did the evangelism now including females as well for example. Its already proceeding apace.
          The leadership already changed its language to “elevate” women as a response to the feminists efforts.

        2. “The leadership already changed its language to “elevate” women as a response to the feminists efforts.”
          That’s always a bad sign.

        3. The founders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or simply Mormonism were Freemasons, as were the founders of The Millennial Dawn, later to be known as Jehovah’s Witnesses. Draw your own conclusions.
          The fact that they’re fringe groups instead of mainstream means that they pose no real threat to the status quo, especially when you consider that they had to compromise a lot of their teachings to accommodate the mainstream, some for the better (white skin good, dark skin evil) and some probably for the worse (polygamy), unless you consider this:

          Also, like Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism, Jehovah’s Witnesses and in seems even some Mormon groups are a haven for pedophiles.

  1. I spent an evening at the local baptists church here in my german city in March 2015. Was pretty interesting. All the guys were black or semi-black dudes (afro-american origin; ancestors of US militants in germany) and all the girls were white craving the BBCs.
    The whole thing was hilarious. It was a ‘modern church’ in which the priest was female and talked about sex at the first date and why god won’t punish people who has changing partners and stuff lilke that.
    When I left the worship service I asked myself If I was in a church or in some feminist hookup culture training.
    Some background information: I am a white german male, born catholic but I left the church and I am an agnostic. I only went to the baptists church because two girls told me about it while I was walking throw the streets of the city center.

    1. That is so revolting. Every single thing that I hear preached now is straight out heresy.

      1. The conservative movement in the church got its ass kicked in the culture war on a few key issues. Instead of regrouping and sticking to its principles, it caved to societal pressure. Most churches nowadays are little more than affirmation centers for sluts. If you’re looking for a goldmine of pussy, go to a mega church, especially one that’s accepting of everybody and has hipster dudes in tight jeans playing the guitars during their Sundays concerts…errr worship services.

        1. The megachurch pussy is indeed plentiful, but you have to sit through some of the longest and least interesting music ever written. South Park’s parody songs were better than the Christian Rock I had to sit through for years.

          I hate to say it, but I’d rather skip church entirely than sit through terrible music, heretical sermons paradoxically void of content, and a twenty minute lecture on the importance of charity and tithes.

        2. The trick is to get in with a young adult group (most mega churches have them). Find out when they meet, show up late (maybe the middle of the speech), and then enjoy the social aspect.
          During my best year ever, I started attending a young adult group every Thursday night. I would show up when there was about 15-20 minutes left, then once it let out, everyone socialized and usually went out for food and drinks.
          I met several beautiful women and actually made some good male friends during that time. The only drawback were the super omega dudes who were awkward as fuck with the women and cockblocked at every turn. There was one girl that one dude obsessed over. Every time I’d chat with her, he’d come over and either butt in to our conversation or hug her, pick her up, and move her away from me.
          It didn’t matter though, because I got several dates/hookups out of the whole thing. And most of those girls don’t want to feel like sluts, so I never gained a bad reputation except with a few of the jealous guys who received zero attention from the girls.

        3. Born again virgins are not my cup of tea. Better a self aware slut than a slut pretending that she hasn’t lost her cherry yet and thus that she’s special and precious.

        4. Agreed. The church I attended had a good mixture–a few born again virgins, some wall-approaching good girls whose lives revolved around church (and were looking to get married, and quick), college-aged church girls who were slightly corrupted and well on their way to whoredom and a future as born again virgins, super innocent college-aged girls whose lives revolved around church and family fun night, and lastly, some out and proud sluts.
          The out and proud sluts didn’t announce it to the world, but they were easy to spot and easy to lay. To this day, I’m pretty sure two of them were at church trolling for dick. They had no other reason to be there. One was seriously into BDSM, loved to be dominated, and was a hardcore leftist/feminist, and the other came onto me way too hard and fast.
          The born again virgins were a massive pain in the ass and I generally avoided them. They attended church digging for gold…I mean to find a husband whom they would love for the remainder of their days. Breaking down their barriers required more effort than I cared to expend, so I left them alone.
          The slightly corrupted college-aged girls were my favorite demographic. They still maintained their feminine charm, had fewer barriers to tear down before reaching the pink medallion, and were at the very early stages of their carousel-riding adventures, before they had taken a thousand cocks.

  2. I’ve always found LDS folks to be relatively normal. Very family unit oriented, and high expectations to excel.

  3. Not that long ago, the average American thought the Mormons were “us, but weirder”. All these good things about being Mormon (except the cult family and the polygamy) were shared by most Christians in America.
    They look so good to us because we’ve sunk so low.

    1. That’s exactly how I see it. I remember “normal” Christians being just like this as a rule, except for the polygamy thing.

  4. Thanks for the honest review about our congregation. I’m pleased to hear good things, but I apologize it wasn’t easy for you to find more information about our church. Missionary work, although highly advocated, is not mandatory. And yeah Mormons get married young, but I would take that over being old and single. I’ve been dating a girl for a year and I’m 19, I figure that being in a relationship will give me something more to work towards, a goal for my studies and work. By the way, there are two other “blocks” or other meetings that are after sacrament. These include more discussion based lessons for men and women, then the last block is typically for men or women separately.

    1. If I join your cult will I be provided with half a dozen attractive women under the age of 20 for constant fornication at my will?

  5. I once got approached by two Mormons on bicycles while walking down the street in Wilmington, North Carolina. They struck up a conversation with me, as they had been programmed to do, pulling out literature and eventually handing me a pamphlet with a website link on it, where I could learn more about Joseph Smith.
    Being a man who enjoys spirited discussions, I asked the older of the two young men if I might ask him a question. He encouraged me to do so. Both young men were starting to sweat in the midafternoon, summertime, North Carolina sun, and they loosened their black ties and unbuttoned the top buttons of their crisp, clean, white shirts.
    “Is god all-powerful?” I asked the older Mormon.
    “Most definitely,” he replied, smiling confidently.
    “Is god all-knowing?” I then queried.
    “Of course,” he swiftly answered.
    “Does god grant us freewill?” was my next question.
    “Yes!” the Mormon follower replied happily.
    I looked at him keenly in his bright, blue eyes, before asking my next question – “Does god know exactly what we are going to do, every minute of every day – does he know if we are going to go to heaven or hell?”
    This one made a puzzled expression cross his face, but only for a couple of seconds. “Why…yes,” he finally stammered. “Yes he does.”
    To which I countered, “Then we don’t have freewill. If we have freewill, god doesn’t know what’s going to happen to us, every minute of every day. And if he doesn’t know what we’re going to do, he isn’t all-powerful and he isn’t all-knowing – which means he isn’t god. And if he does know exactly what we’re going to do, we are puppets…”
    The younger Mormon looked over at his superior, with his hands now on his hips, waiting for his response. There was no response forthcoming.
    “I always wondered about that,” the young Mormon finally said to me.
    I just looked at him and shrugged. At which point he took off his tie, handed it, and his bag of books and pamphlets to his superior, and rode away from us on his bicycle…

    1. Eh, kinda weak sophistry. If time machines are invented then freewill is wiped out simply by their existence, under the logic you’re posing.
      Knowing somebody chooses something or will choose something is not the same as compelling the choice. Freewill means simply that a self aware conscious entity (man) makes choices of his own volition, nothing more, nothing less. I can read a history book on what a particular warrior chose to do during WW2, but that doesn’t mean that I compelled him to make that choice 70+ years ago nor have any effect on his choice. A time machine would make *everything* “the past” in theory. Only in *compelling* choices is a being deprived of freewill. If God knows the future but doesn’t compel the choices, then freewill remains intact.
      Also, just to make your mind turn to mush, consider quantum theory and quantum universes. All choices occur and all actions occur across the spectrum. If God created it, as would be the claim, then all choices are still open for the individual to take and depending on what choice he takes, spins him off into a new thread.

      1. Krampus (Original Recipe) here:
        But if god CONTROLS all aspects of the natural world and sets up circumstances he knows ahead of time will turn you in Gandhi one way and Hitler another, there is no free will.
        If one’s concept of god is that he does NOT control the day-to-day circumstances then I’d agree somewhat with you.

        1. You missed my point. He’s not compelling or setting up circumstances, you operate in the universe as a self aware entity and act and react to your universe accordingly. He knows in a time-traveller way (best analogy I could think of) exactly what you’ll choose, but that doesn’t compel your choice in the first place. Only by “forcing” you to make a choice does your freewill become violated.

        2. Gandhi was a loyal subject of the British Empire. Just sayin’…and I have the bullets to prove it, if anybody is interested.

        3. If my friend is staying with me and he’s a recovering alcoholic, and I choose NOT to throw out the booze in my house you are correct I am not compelling him. But I’m stacking the deck against him and I DON’T have the insight into his mind that a supposedly omniscient god does.

        4. I don’t recall God promising a world without temptation. No matter which text I read.
          EDIT: In fact, He tells us straight up that there are temptations and to avoid them using your own free will to choose sin or do right. Ergo, for your analogy to hold, you’d invite your friend in and explicitly tell him “Hey, I have booze, it’s up to you to be a man and take control of your life and not drink, if you want to stay overnight”.

        5. Yep. He also wasn’t nearly as peaceful as “history written by the victor” makes out.

        6. Ugh Jeff. But he KNOWS ahead of time or at least has a very good idea what the tempted person is going to do.

        7. Because the tempted person is going to make every choice and go down every path. I know that too.

        8. But the choices are are affected by the person’s experiences, also controlled by an omnipotent god. Unless, once again, your concept of god is that he does not interfere, merely observes.

        9. No, the experiences are not “controlled by an omnipotent God”. I have the power to slay my family, but I do not utilize that power. I could. I don’t. Yet I have the power.

        10. Not doesn’t, I don’t know, but there’s nothing compelling him to do so either. Having power is not the same as using power is my only point.

        11. If he takes no active role in the day-to-day then I think we are pretty much in agreement.
          If however, he sometimes intervenes, sometimes does not, and allows circumstances that set up people to become pieces of shit that is not a benevolent god and we have no free will.

        12. I am so absolutely unqualified in telling you what God may or may not want, or chooses to do. Necessarily so. But I really don’t mind, I can accept that it’s something I will forever remain ignorant of.

        13. I would imagine many cultures have had this same argument, this same back and forth, throughout history. That is, until the time came, when the minions of the church crossed the ocean, and spread out across the various continents, and put people on the rack, and shoved hot pokers up their asses, and put them in Iron Maidens, and such, until they screamed, “Yes! Yes! I believe!” At that point, I would imagine everybody pretty much looked at it the same way for a period of time…

        14. Okay that’s cool, but I can’t worship someone that doesn’t tell me what they want except from 2,000 middle eastern prophets. I certainly can’t set my moral compass that way.

        15. Well, that is your freely taken uncompelled choice.

        16. That is a feature of humanity, it’s not restricted to religion. If it was, well, atheists would have a pretty strong case. Unfortunately, it’s something human beings can choose to do (or not do) regardless of cultural context. Like for example, communist nations.

        17. Yes, indeed it is. If you’re telling the truth (which I’m assuming you are). Heh.

        18. Well the argument about many atheistic but still oppressive cultures (Stalinist Russia, Khemer Rouge Cambodia, North Korea) still organize around cults of personality that are very much like religions.

        19. Stefan Molyneux has mused of late that many atheists seem to need to submit to a higher power. When they reject the concept of God, they find a new power – usually in the state.
          I will not muse on what might cause such an innate desire, but it does appear to be a trend throughout recent history.

        20. But they’re not religions. They’re secular governments.
          That’s the point. It’s everywhere, not just religion. And when it’s secular the Pain and Suffering ™ is usually 1000% higher than anything religions have done in the past.

        21. Looks like a good weekend read. Now all I need is Brother Aurelius Moner’s weekly piece, and I’ve got a weekend of heavy reading and meditation.

      2. “If God knows the future but doesn’t compel the choices, then freewill remains intact.”
        You’re cutting him a lot more slack than I would…but so it goes. It’s all about perspective, I think. To me, I can’t imagine god thinking, “Poor Steve. That poor slob is going to hell – he just doesn’t know it yet…” Which might be extreme, but your own logic infers that situation. I just can’t wrap my mind around that one. Probably because I’m not god. Which brings up that old chestnut, “The Lord works in mysterious ways.” They’re far too mysterious for me. So I’ll choose to leave my mind open on the whole story of Christ thing for now, and I will do so of my own (ahem)…freewill.

        1. Take it to the time machine again.
          “Those poor sorry bastards jumping on board the Titanic, 70% of them are going to die….they just don’t know yet”
          Then you stand back and let it happen. Because you don’t fuck with history, or you destroy the future (or so the theory goes). Same thing.

        2. That’s all a little too convenient, I think…again, I’ll just keep my mind open on it, for the time being. There’s a god, I believe that. A creator. How you dress him up, and what sayings you put into his mouth, is up to the individual shepherd (or sheep)…but what the flock do I know.

        3. Why is it too convenient? The more I think about it, it seems a rather apt analogy. But then again, taking a quantum framework for the universe, all choices are made and all people become all things, thus, God can justly say “I know what choice you’re going to make and what path you’ll take” because, hey, you make all choices possible to a self aware entity and follow every possible path you can follow. Shit, home fries, in that scenario *I* can say I know everything you’re going to do, as a mere mortal. Heh. That being said, if you make all choices then part of you is a pure Christian who does good his whole life, as well as Mr. Literally Hitler. So….some of “me” go to hell, some of “me” go to heaven, some of “me” go to purgatory (assuming there is one). Which strangely, to me, points to something more subtle going on than we think of in regards to sin and doing good, and there is NO possible way I could ever possibly guess it honestly.
          End of the day, who knows why the whole apparatus is in place, if you believe Christian texts, nobody can know the mind of God (entirely I assume, we all know the 10 commandments, etc)?

        4. soph·ist·ry [ˈsäfəstrē] NOUN – the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
          Sounds like the way most organized religions operate…now, I might concede here, that god did indeed create that particular word.
          I see your points. I think god would relish prodding, and questioning, if he were truly omniscient…and I think religious tenets and beliefs and dogma, should be able to hold up under the most severe scrutiny, without massive contradictions evidencing themselves. Unfortunately, they can’t. Which should make anybody who can think critically, just a tad suspicious…but fortunately for said organized religions, most people don’t do that…
          Oh, hey – don’t forget that Ohio is now a Democratic state, okay? That’s how god wanted it to be. Heh.

        5. “To me, I can’t imagine god thinking, “Poor Steve. That poor slob is going to hell – he just doesn’t know it yet…”
          Poor Steve. He is a heroin addict. If he doesn’t get his shit together, he will have a bad end.
          I am not God, but Steve had freewill and chose to ignore the consequences of his actions.
          Freewill entails responsibilities and thats what a parastic people will never be a free, or rich, nation.

        6. Oh, hey – don’t forget that Ohio is now a Democratic state, okay? That’s how god wanted it to be. Heh.
          Well, if by “God” you mean “George Soros”, um, ok.
          We’re not, but like they say, “Perception is reality”. I didn’t vote for Obama but I don’t know if my electronic voting machine did or not.

        7. Nice bit of sophistry there, by the electronic voting machine apologists…”It’s so much faster and so much more con-VEEEEEEE-nient,” etc. Did god want Obama to win Ohio? Hmm…he certainly knew he would win it. He must have set it up that way. Hey. If god is in Obama’s corner, I’m thinkin’ Buddhism is looking pretty attractive right about now.

        8. If I know that the Hindenberg is going to crash in the 1930’s and I don’t act to stop it as a time traveller, that must mean that my actions to not stop it “set it up to happen”. Which is false.
          This is not sophistry. If you are not compelled to make choice A or choice B, then it doesn’t matter what an outside observer knows from having a perspective that encompasses the entirety of time and space. The only thing that negates free will is a force compelling a choice.

        9. I don’t understand that one, but…aw, fuck it…I’ll drop $2 in your collection plate anyway. What will the neighbors think, if I don’t.

        10. Oh, hey – don’t forget that Ohio is now a Democratic state, okay? That’s how god wanted it to be. Heh.

          The Old Testament has 4 entire books (1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles) which document how God intentionally “rewarded” nations which rejected Him with bad leadership.

        11. Exactly God knows the way in which the time line is changed by his every intervention. Unless he wants human robots instead of free men, he must let the time line be most of the time

        12. ” I didn’t vote for Obama but I don’t know if my electronic voting machine did or not.” Only happens if you were observing it, otherwise, it’s down to chance, or, is it?

        13. Alas, all data changes with observation. We’ll just never know.

        14. This where the idea of a deity or God has real plausibility. An entity, intelligence or overarching observer that can observe and know all possibilities, while to us outcomes may seem random or predicated purely by chance, but in the grand scheme from his perspective they’re are determinable occurrences after a particular choice/act is made. Its indubitably logical from his observation point, but, appears random from our vantage point.
          Additionally over the course of any given life a man might be both a bum and a millionaire which never actually conscious of such divergences while he is either of course.

        15. “Even if you are minority of one, the truth is still the truth.” Gandhi allegedly said that, and he worked for the British Empire, but he still had a point…I mean, if you’re a lone nut.

        16. I like to say: Whether I win the argument or not does not change reality.
          It is a calming thought and kinda leads away from putting too much importance on “ego fights”.

        17. Yeah. We’re all fools. I am no exception. Change is the only thing a guy can count on…

        18. Not even that you can count on, as psychedelics have taught me. The moment you start being attached to “nothing ever stays the same”, the drug will create a reality that shatters this belief. Heh.

        19. My problem is that I studied physics at a detailed level, along with philosophy and canonical literature and language. It’s created a person who writes things that perhaps only he understands at times. I guess that’s ok, because as long as I don’t answer myself it means I’m sane, right?

        20. It’s Schrödinger’s ballot booth until your death, then you vote Democrat for eternity.

        21. You can’t know you’ll never know for sure until you’ve observed not knowing, at which point you’ve changed it from not knowing, but you can know not into what…

        22. One of the quantum-yous has the elusive answer somewhere… I think I spotted him once at a high-energy physics conference about 20 years ago, but when I went to ask him to tell me more he wasn’t there, no one else even remembered him even though he was the keynote presenter. Strange.

        23. “I can’t imagine god thinking, “Poor Steve. That poor slob is going to hell – he just doesn’t know it yet…”
          This assertion would find support in many biblical scriptures. For example Paul, who wrote the epistle to the Romans went into detail on this topic. Basically he says that God has indeed created people who are predestined to be within the light of salvation. Apparently God has also created “vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.”
          Not only that but according to the bible the vast majority of the world are indeed these vessels of wrath which God has made for hell. The believer is simply to accept this fact because God can do whatever He wants to His creation.
          This was a large part of the protestant reformation and calvinism.
          So supposedly we have no real free will and yet we are still held responsible for our choices. A catch 22 indeed.
          Personally I have seen that kind of theology lead to defeatism and apathy.

      3. So what is “free will” actually free of? If it can be predicted, it is compelling. Not because anybody compels it, but because the free will compels itself. Which makes it deterministic.

        1. No, wrong. And this isn’t about predicting, the value is already known because “omniscience”, not because “prediction”. I’ve already went over this below, so as to not restate the entire case.

        2. “Free Will”, in my opinion, is only from the perspective of a person.
          Suppose The Creator knows all possible choices and results in advance, but does nothing to hinder the choices or affect the results.
          For the person (who doesn’t know in advance) it’s real free choice, he drives the decision tree to results.
          The hard part is random misfortune such as injury, death or some other doom right out of the blue.
          The Book of Job addresses this question, it’s harsh and the conclusion seems to be we created humans can’t know the answer, we should just keep doing what is right/just and not worry about it too much.
          “The Prophet” by Khalil Gibran has a pleasant yet profound take on these questions (totally non-dogmatic).

        3. Well, you are, like the others, talking about whether the personal choice is hindered. Or, the personal will. If it is not, you say it is free.
          But this kind of freedom has actually nothing to do with the free will vs. determinism debate as I know it, because this kind of freedom does not require non-determinism.
          Say you are a machine with a deterministic will. As long as nobody obstructs this will, it is still “free”. But also deterministic.

        4. True – it becomes quite mind boggling.
          But me personally, I’m old and have seen a lot, many experiences. The best way in my opinion (at least for me) is to think about these things because it’s good to, exercise the mind and soul.
          But no worrying about it. Just try to be “clean” (positive, good intentions, no harming others for no reason, etc.), and it’s all good.

      4. On line atheist live for sophistry. They are not not good discussion at all. To them it is sport, truth matter little.
        To the more normal, I just do not know, nor do I spend my life arguing about it atheists. I do not mean you

      5. Have you ever noticed just how many of these I stumped the Christian stories they seem to have? Yet not one of their arguments are very hard to deal with.

        1. Actually Bob’s a good fellow. I do note however that this kind of story is rather omnipresent.
          On the flip side, there are lot of Christians in Name Only (CINO!) types who believe in God “just because” or “that’s how I was raised” who haven’t really thought through their faith with Reason. I can see where they’d be easy to stump. But somebody who is well read and who thinks philosophically doesn’t have much trouble tearing apart the same bromides that have been presented in the last hundred years or so.

        2. Oh he probably is a great guy. It’s just that I see these stories and they repeat themselves over and over in exactly the same way. Yet no Christian seems able to handle them the way they tell the story.
          Yet I could tear those stories apart when I was 13. And I’m far from the brightest Christian I know

    2. You’ve got two ways you can go: Social Justice or divine justice.
      A good father has a pretty sure idea what mistakes his child is going to make. Yet he still allows him to make them so that he can learn from his mistakes. God set certain parameters to this earth that prevents him from interfering with our free will. If we get to rise by our own free will and merit, then the unfortunately reality is that we can fall by the same rule, as Adam did in the Garden. God is not above this reality.
      The other way to go would be a controlling dictator who forced us to make correct choices and reaps the glory for himself, a father who catches his son every time he falls. Mormons believe this is Satan’s plan, which opposes God’s plan of progression through meritocracy. It would not be enough for God to say “I’ll let you try for yourself… unelss you are about to really mess up.” No, free agency means to training wheels are completely off.
      So, your question of free will vs. fate, which dates back to Saint Augustine, leads to the question of justice and what it means to rise as a man.

      1. There are always more than two ways to go. Infinity is a really big place…because god, most obviously, set it up that way. Offering me the choice between social justice and divine justice, is like me offering you the choice between a Chevy and a Ford – when I own both auto companies and there are myriad other models from which to choose. What you’re implying, is that if a person doesn’t get on the divine justice bandwagon, he is a social justice warrior. That seems straight out of the Mussolini playbook, to me. So I’ll pass on that one, my friend. As far as Satan goes, well, God created him. No getting around that one…

        1. Yes, that is exactly what I am implying. If you don’t believe in a natural definition of justice, then you are a social justice warrior. Well said.

      1. Yeah, it actually happened. That younger Mormon got a look on his face like, “Motherfucker…I knew this was crap.” The other guy just stood there, watching his former disciple pedal away. I, of course, was the Devil, as that could be the only explanation…

        1. Wahahaha. This is such a great story man. Like out of a movie. It is very motivating, too. I never thought you could actually convince any of these fuckers they are nuts.

    3. Damn that is so easy. (From the bible) You do know that God is outside of our space and time? (from physics) And that linear time does not exist outside it of our space matter and speed. (From faith + science) God knows what you are going to do, because you have both already done it and have yet to do it from his point of view. You are not predestined, you already did it.

      1. That’s a much more concise way of saying what I was more or less alluding to.

        1. The the optimist of determinism. You are claiming that because someone who could change what you do observes your actions and does nothing. That you did not have free will. Sorry but that is a silly argument

        2. Rather than using big words that I not sure you even understand. Make your argument. That is your job, try to make the argument that God seeing all time at the same time, because linear time is not real unless you in that space. Tell me why God is not allowing you free will by letting you have free will? An observer to your actions is not controlling you

        3. Big words? Not sure what you find so impressive about me saying “strawman”. But thanks for the compliment.
          I would argue that God is everything, not a separate entity. Ergo, me and you, everything and everybody, is God. My mind and my capacity to make choices, is God too. Now, I am sure many here on ROK would now accuse me of claiming I am god and being presumptuous. But I am not saying I am above God or that only me is God. I am just saying there can be nothing but God.
          The way my free will works is the way God created it. It is made out of God. No, of course no one and nothing is externally controlling it. But the very essence and building material of the (free) will, if you want to call it so, is God. So while it is not externally compelled by “a God”, it is compelled to choose what it chooses simply by being what it is and not being able to be anything but that what it is.
          You present free will as being in opposition to external force, hence the time traveller analogy. So basically, you are saying: As long as no external force compels me otherwise, I will choose freely. And this free choice will lead me down a path that can be known in advance (by God or hypothetically by humans).
          And I agree. Without external intervention, I will freely choose the path that God already knows I will choose. Not because God compels me, but because I (and my free will) compel myself; by virtue of being who I am and my free will being what it is.
          But since I consider myself and my will a part of God, it is not entirely incorrect to actually say God compels me. But the mistake is to see this as if “someone else” is compelling me. This is an illusion. Rather, God compels me because I compel myself, because I am a part of God.
          This is also rather compatible with the idea of enlightenment that “all is one”.

        4. So, you say when you act freely, you’re acting in accordance with the Will of God?
          I’d say that from God’s perspective there’s perhaps a diverse, but, not infinite number of outcomes from every action made by a sentient Being, which means free will exists for us, but, from his ordinance, it’s just a certain logical outcome determined with the exactitude that must happen in a universe that is eternal and ever repeating. All outcomes must logically happen and be determinable against the side rule that is eternity.

        5. About the most contrived argument I have ever heard. First redefine God, then made yourself a piece of god therefore all of your thoughts are gods. Just admit the free will argument against god is more than weak. It is foolish

        6. “So, you say when you act freely, you’re acting in accordance with the Will of God?”
          Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
          Like, when you ask an enlightened man to prove something, he will likely say: Why, there is no need to prove it.
          And the Western mind thinks: He is a charlatan. He is trying to trick me. He is lying. He does not prove it because he can’t.
          The simple truth is: He could prove it. But it does not flow out of the current moment, so he does not. He does not care if the other person does not believe him. He does not care if nobody follows him. He does not care to convince anybody. He simply lives in the moment.
          So now you could say that he faces a choice. Whether to prove it. And arguably, theoretically, he COULD prove it. But he has no motivation whatsoever to do it. Now, you could say that he could exercise “free will” in order to prove that he is not a slave of determinism. In order to make a choice that is not predetermined by “the flow”. To prove that he can do something even if he sees no reason in doing so.
          But that ignores that in that case, the very motivation to do something that is not predetermined would be to prove that his choices are not predetermined. Likely due to insecurity or lack of acceptance. Which would in turn be a very deterministic move, because the knowledge of his desire to prove free will would very predictably compel him to do something he would otherwise not do. Now, if you argued this to him, what would happen? Heh. He would predictably force himself to not let himself be forced to prove he has free will, because trying to prove it would refute it; and yet, then, the reason for why he will decide to not bother to prove it will be in the perfectly predictable desire to disprove the desire’s predictability.
          But take away such insecurities and you will have a man who is not concerned with “proving free will”. He simply lives in the flow and does not even care either way. Such a man will feel no motivation whatsoever to prove something or commit any act unless it flows out of the moment. Now you could say that THEORETICALLY, he could choose otherwise. But could he really? For when there is not the tiniest amount of motivation or energy in him towards going down that path (and I mean nonexistent motivation, not repressed motivation), then it is very valid to say that it is indeed impossible for him to choose to do it. He may sit there and mire in the idea that he COULD do it, but find himself completely unable to do it precisely because he would not have any wish to do it whatsoever, not even to prove that he could indeed choose to do it.
          Thus you could say: Unless someone feels a need to prove that he could choose differently, he will not. In fact, he will be incapable of choosing differently precisely because he does not protest against the idea that he can not choose differently.
          Thus you could say: There is God’s path, buried deep within most of us. It is a clear determined path. Our true self. And all that deviates from it, is … well, a deviation.
          Now, I have actually written a funny article about free will on my website, called “free will is a double bind”. You may like it.
          I basically argue in it that the very desire to prove free will actually makes you unfree. When you act out of the moment, out of your true self, but someone else comes along and says: “What you did was bad. But you have a “free choice” to do better.” And punishes us.
          What does this do? It creates a desire for approval – a deviation. This desire can be satisfied by “proving” that you exercise your “free will”. Ironic, eh?
          The more honest thing would be for the parent to say: I don’t like what you did and you will not receive my love unless you bow down to my will.
          And if you think of it, free will is mostly used that way: “You have free will. You can be a better person.” Without ever asking: “What do you mean, better person? I am what I am, there is nothing wrong with me.”

        7. No, it is a good argument.
          But hey. If you say you believe in “God” as an entity fundamentally separate from its creation, then I will simply state that I do not believe in such a God, because such a premise of God does not make sense to me in the first place. That would be the end of the argument.
          Then again, if you look into Eastern philosophy, my definition of God is not something out of the blue. It is something that many people have considered before, even on a large scale.

        8. No I took the God as described in scriptures. this would be the God we were talking about when you were insulting Mormons. Then I described the most highly thought-of theory of what time it is in physics. You on the other hand made a bunch of stuff up trying to suit your purpose and none of it made a lot of sense.
          If you really think you made a good argument then I find you comical. If you don’t then I find you dishonest

        9. You know you’re probably the nicest guy in the world and this just isn’t the sort of argument you should be getting into

        10. “Yes, that is exactly what I am saying” So your actions are predicated by God’s Will? Then, you must admit that in any conventional sense you’re not acting freely, or, a person only acts freely when their Will becomes that of Gods?
          This is a tricky philosophical proposition, as you may think you’re acting in accordance with God’s Will, but, you’ve no real way of knowing this? What of God’s Will tells you to do or commit acts that go against your own nature? Is this a free act on your behalf? The problem with your argument relates to our conventional notion of what is meant by acting freely in the first place. It’s impossible to completely break away from the laws of causality and maintain a state of freedom or free acting that’s apart from occurrences that precede any given present sense you’re in. Yes, you can mediate and reach an atemporal state, which maybe free, but, critically, it’s not a state where you can act freely from as it’s removed mostly from the everyday world of cause and effect.
          This is why I think your idea of free will falls down as it hopelessly naive and rests solely upon an uncritical acceptance of what these terms mean.

        11. “So your actions are predicated by God’s Will? Then, you must admit that in any conventional sense you’re not acting freely, or, a person only acts freely when their Will becomes that of Gods?”
          That only seems like an unforgiving idea when you assume God as separate from yourself. What I am saying is: Your true self IS God.
          I am not suggesting breaking free from causality. I am suggesting a flow state, which is hardly overly idealistic, as it is widely debated today. You can act and stay in the moment even when something ‘bad’ is happening to you. In that presence in the moment, of course you have to still eat, sleep etc. There is no freedom of causality. Quite the opposite. The true self, as I see it, is perfectly capable of handling anything that may happen and can thus perfectly react and interact. It is resistance agaisnt that which is, which creates problems.

        12. “That only seems like an unforgiving idea when you assume God as separate from yourself. What I am saying is: Your true self IS God” I agree that the Creator cannot be separate from His creation, and, perhaps this is where your idea of free will has some traction. Suppose that not all outcomes can be determined, even by God, then perhaps the degree of interaction between the Creator and His creatures is genuinely Open and undetermined at this scale. Free Will and novelty would come into the “flow” as you say, as something unique and unexpected, as a rapture to the laws of causality, when a being acts in accordance or in closer proximity to their real origin while yet being a concrete everyday man who brushes his teeth and farts.
          However, the problem with a truer being who’s closer to their origin argument is that the obverse can apply too, meaning that an evil person like a sadist can also be “authentic” while serving an evil force, but, the question about their free will is a moot point once more. Do they act freely by being bastards by following the Will of a dark force or our they dammed to infamy by not imposing and discipling their instincts to the call of the true God? The question is difficult to answer? All we can say is that human beings have the ultimate choice. There cannot be purely saintly or wicked human beings as a starting point. Their closeness or distance from both themselves and God would seem to “determine” their relative freedom.

        13. “meaning that an evil person like a sadist can also be “authentic” while serving an evil force”
          I don’t think a thing like ‘an evil force’ exists.

      2. Don’t really understand it, but I’ll drop $50 in the collection plate here, solely based on the sheer Neil deGrasse Tyson-esque eloquence of it…

        1. No please I own $50 for reading what you wrote here. “Neil deGrasse Tyson-esque eloquence” that is simply a wonderful use of the written word

      3. So that means god already knows who gets to bang the pretty porn stars? That just destroyed my game.

        1. You have yet to bang them and you have banged them all and died of aids. Time is only linear in our space. From outside of it all. All of the time space and matter are one. Physics is hard unless you do acid

    4. If God is truly Omnipotent then he can grant freewill, and be all knowing at the same time, have you never heard? Nothing is impossible with God… Your first question to the Mormon, “Is God all Powerful?” and the Mormon Replies “Yes” and the conversation should have ended there for he answered your questions as how God can be All knowing and Granting Freewill. For if God is all powerful, then nothing is Impossible with God, and if nothing is impossible with God, then He can do all things including being all knowing, and granting freewill. To a Man this may seem impossible, but not to the God who created all things. God is not Restricted to the same limitations of Man, so God can Function in ways that seem truly impossible. This is why God is Great.

  6. I’ve worked for a couple of managers who were Mormon and they were probably two of the nicest, most generous people I’ve ever met. However, they always seem kind of weak to me. The first one, who actually owns a small business, has caved in to employee’s unreasonable demands on many occasions. The other was a regional manager who loved a good sob story and hired a lot of under qualified people just to help them out. Unfortunately for him, it came back to bite him in the ass when everything fell apart because he hired the wrong people.
    Also, I feel like tabernacle is just a fun word to say.

  7. Dont believe every Mormon girl is a saint, I work at those refineries in Salt Lake City from time to time and my coworkers would take Mormon girls home for the night and they were all into anal because they believed it wasn’t breaking the fornication rule. I’m not saying they’re all like that but look for the signs of you plan on settling down with one.

    1. I worked with a Mormon girl and she was very sweet. She remembered everyone’s birthdays/anniversaries if you had a loved one pass away etc. Having said that, she was not immune to the rather materialistic ways of most modern American women. Her father was a very successful real estate investor and she once told me that she would not marry a man that made less than $200k ($200,000!) annually and she expected not to work and to live in [NAME OF MUNICIPALITY DELETED] the most expensive suburban town in this area.

      1. And that is perfectly rational on her part. She is going to, with a high degree of probability, bear him a huge brood of children, raise them to be modest, decent human beings and be there for him whenever he needs her. That’s worth the price of the E ticket, and you can’t find it in normal women. A modern normal girl I’d laugh in her face, a Mormon (or Amish) type chick, eh, that’s not really a bad thing.

        1. Rational, but also quite unrealistic. 200K+ is ~3% of the population. Most people who earn that much are older (50+). People making 200K at 25-30 years old, while not unheard of, it’s kind of like a guy setting his standards at “Victoria’s Secret Model”. Sure, it’s doable, but most people are going to fail badly.
          Also, 200K doesn’t buy the champagne and caviar lifestyle that many people thinks it does. Your house should cost about 600K and your car about 50K if you make that much (3X income and 1/4 income, respectively). That’s not “mansion” with a high end BMW out front. Again, upper middle class, for sure, but not enough to get the “panties wet” for most girls in major metro areas.

        2. Rational, but also quite unrealistic. 200K+ is ~3% of the population.
          Virginal women who gladly and willingly accept and endorse a true Patriarchy, and who gladly and willingly submit to their husbands, are what percentage of the population in modern America, would you say?
          If she follows through, what she offers is something you’d be hard pressed to find even in EE or SA girls.

        3. I didn’t say it was irrational, but materialistic. If god’s love is so important how much her husband makes/where she lives/keeping up with the Youngs should not hold such a prominent place.

        4. If I’m going to very likely pop out 12 kids for a hubby (as a woman) I’d want him to have the means to support them. Remember, these dudes are kid factories. Settling for some trailer guy is a sure shot ticket to the poor house and maybe even endangering to your future children’s welfare.

        5. You got that one right man, heh. Two kids have blown through a huge wad of my cash over the years. Worth it, but damn, it’s expensive if you’re wanting to raise a kid to be something other than a ghetto dwelling feral human.

        6. Agreed its reflective of the privileged life she’s accustomed to from her father. She doesn’t want to take a lifestyle cut. Its hypergamy, women marry equal or higher, but rarely lower, regardless of their religion. That’s true across all religions. Hypergamy doesn’t care, that’s a brilliant quote from rollo tomassi’s site.

        7. Hypergamy is simply a hard wired feature in women. In nature, without our high tech world, it actually is quite logical and beneficial. I don’t hold it against women, I simply recognize it as a “feature” and figure out how to deal with it.

        8. I know people that spent a lot, were good parents (from what I saw) and the kids are pretty feral.

        9. Yeah, free will. It happens. That’s why I never come down too hard on “the parents” when their 35 year old kid does something stupid long after he’s out of the house. For some reason conservatives will always go back to “bad parents!”, which is stupid.

        10. Not disagreeing with you, but there are plenty of poor people who have many kids, and the family functions just fine. Money doesn’t instill morality in people.

        11. Money doesn’t hurt either though. With 12 pups, I’d want a decent income provider too. You can always “make do” and turn out fine, but I don’t fault a woman for working as designed.

        12. I’d dispute your last sentence GoJ, if you do your due diligence in EA you can find pretty much just that.

        13. You would dispute it because, well, you’re literally Hitler. Literally.

        14. I must disagree, Hitler would’ve never deigned to soil pristine Arian penises with slanty-gook nookie, Literally.

        15. Yes, like your name suggests, you get over-taxed in the income bracket. 40% or thereabouts. If you make 90k a year you’ll be living about the same lifestyle but might retire a few years later.

      2. Yes you do need to be at least as good as their father. So give up on the rich girls if you want a keeper. But then that is true of all woman and the reason why girls who hate daddy are so damn easy

      3. I would think a feminine, sweet virgin American girl has a right to expect a husband that makes $200K+. You are talking unicorn rare in the US.

      4. That income is totally realistic for a Mormon in real estate coming out of her Dad’s circles. Especially if he’s a little older than her. They are superior business people. The Mariott empire for one is Mormon. Also Albertson’s supermarkets. They take care of their own, like another well known tribe.

      5. Men want the most beautiful and feminine girl they like. Women want the most alpha/provider they like.

    2. Like 60% mormons have pre-marital sex, usually with other mormons because its easier to justify that he might be marriage potential and its less bad, or maybe because those are social circles they are into. So non-mormons are always getting their advances rebuffed by mormons so they think mormon women are pure but that’s not true.

      1. I think the thing with my buddies was the girls new they were out of towners and the odds of word getting out they were passing out ass to them was slim to none. Again I’m not saying they are all like that but I know some are so I was just giving a heads up to that. It would be shitty to marry a woman thinking she’s real religious and pure in a sense but then find out she’s had a few anal partners cause then the trust and relationship would be ruined at that point.

    3. see also “docking,” “marinating,” and my favorite, “the Provo Push”

    4. As with other denominations, the children of Bishops were sometimes secretly wild. It’s tough bein’ the “preacher’s kid”.

    5. “my coworkers would take Mormon girls home for the night and they were all into anal because they believed it wasn’t breaking the fornication rule.”
      Many other “Christian” girls from other denominations do this as well. Anal’a not pnv and “doesn’t count” so they’re still a virgin.

  8. The Mormon temple is an very imposing and intimidating structure. I will not enter one. I read a Mormon bible once when they visited my home many years ago. Immediately, I noticed how they changed the words to mean something else. “God” is changed to “a god.” Mormons can’t just shake the polygamy habit. It still lingers in the background. It’s immoral yet many believe it as inherent in their religion.
    “Don’t expect to casually date a Mormon if you are not Mormon.” Perhaps the best thing to learn out of this situation.

    1. You wouldn’t be able to enter one anyway–it’s only open to members in good standing, and even they need permission from the higher-ups to do so. Who knows what goes on inside during the “sealings”?

      1. I know. I’ve been to more than a dozen sealings. If you had any idea how boring and prudish they are you would feel depressed. They are incredibly vanilla and proper. The rumors people make up about temple sealings are way more interesting than the reality.

        1. Being boring and prudish in a world of out of control feral humans bent on creating a socialist nightmare world, ain’t such a bad thing.

        2. It’s ok. It sometimes is interesting and makes you think about important stuff but other times you kind of drift off in it.

    2. As I recall, some Christian patriarchs in the Bible had many wives. What’s your basis for declaring polygamy immoral? I ask this impartially, I’m not endorsing (nor condemning) polygamy.

        1. God seemed pretty pleased with them. You’d think that if it were immoral God would have, you know, mentioned it to Solomon or something like that, right?

        2. Is the Old Testament not part of the Bible? Assuming that you’re going to go the “the OT is the old covenant was replaced by the new covenant with Jesus (NT)”, then Jesus would have to explicitly come out against polygamy in the new covenant for it to be immoral. Now I’m not a Biblical scholar extraordinaire, so there exists a chance that I might have missed his words on this. If I’m mistaken, then I beg for enlightenment; please show me where Jesus came out against polygamy.

        3. I can’t give you an education. You protest out of ignorance. I can’t simply talk about the morality of having a single wife since you brought up just about every misconception about the Old Testament. You just have to crawl back to your hole and stay there.

        4. So basically you can’t actually show me where it is declared immoral (or if you prefer, a sin) in the Bible.
          Just one chapter and verse, that’s it, and your case is made. Since you seem so sure of this, then clearly you have that passage at hand. Otherwise, you’d be basing your belief on…well….nothing.
          So show me. Like I said, I may well be wrong. Educate me. Show me the chapter and verse and I’ll cede that you’re correct.

        5. Wow. You keep digging.
          1. You think Solomon is Christian
          2. Think morality is he did it too.
          3. Don’t know difference between OT and NT.
          4. Morality doesn’t exist until I show it to you.
          I do think I’m wasting my time with you.

        6. You can’t show me can you?
          I didn’t say Solomon was Christian, but the Bible does contain the OT. Even then I’ve eliminated the OT for your convenience by going strictly NT. I understand the differences between the two, hence why I mentioned New Covenant vs. Old Covenant. Morality has nothing to do with you showing me, however you claimed it’s immoral, ergo, I asked you to show me where God discussed polygamy in a negative manner.
          All you’re doing is stalling and being snide. You can’t find the chapter and verse. Can you?
          If you’re actually a Christian you’d probably not want to see another brother persist in heretical thought and enlighten him. Just sneering at him and being snide isn’t doing the Lord’s work.
          So show me. One sentence, just the chapter and verse (or parable if it’s located there). That’s all.
          Failure to provide that I will consider as you surrendering the debate in my favor.

        7. It’s actually a rather intriguing question, the answer to which I don’t know the answer (I agree this guy should condescend to explain as it isn’t obvious). Having said that I imagine it could have to do with the notion of a man and wife becoming ‘one-flesh’ through the sacrament of marriage. I’m not sure how that works if there’s more than two invited to the party.
          I would add that the issue of marriage was historically potentially problematic for the church insofar as it idealised the heroic virtue of Christ as a celibate, and modelled the priesthood upon that. Evidently that was a later development as I think marriage was common amongst priests during much of the first millenium (as it often still is in de facto terms in many parts of the world).
          On that basis – marriage as a Christian sacrament of union – Mormons would have to demonstrate that they such (polygamous) unions could remain virtuous in that sense, and still represent the union of male and female as one flesh.
          That (conventional) notion of the union is probably highly platonic in its origin (c.f. Plato’s Symposium)

        8. He cut and ran I think. I was actually curious what his answer would be, it really isn’t something that’s easily answered from a Biblical perspective.

        9. Let me be snide again. Even if I show to you in the Bible that polygamy is immoral, that’s irrelevant to the Mormon. I told you in the first post that the Mormon Bible alters words. They don’t believe polygamy is immoral. Many Mormons believe polygamy is inherent in their religion. So by bringing up Solomon, you misunderstand Christianity, then you misunderstand Mormonism. You dislike Christians and make it your cause to discredit them. I do think Mormons are a cult, but they are free to believe what they want.

        10. You claimed polygamy is immoral. That’s something that doesn’t apply to just Mormons. Show me in *your* Bible where it’s declared immoral. That’s all I’ve asked, three times now, and you refuse to do what should be a simple thing; namely, showing me where in the Bible this is declared.
          You’re saying I dislike Christians? *blink* Are you freaking kidding me? Have you not read this thread at all? I’m here pushing back every atheist argument that is put forward. What are you doing, checking on your posts only or something brother?
          I’m not discrediting anybody, except maybe you, since you don’t seem to be able to provide the proof for your claim that polygamy is immoral. Assuming that you’re Christian, I’d think that you got this from the Christian faith. If it’s not from the Christian faith, then lay out your philosophical context that tries to prove it immoral.
          You keep dodging and dodging just answering the question. You could have said Book 1 Chapter 3 Verse 24 and been done, but you can’t or won’t.
          As noted in my previous post, you refuse to answer, ergo, you cede the argument to me and tender your defeat in front of the assembled crowd. Thank you for the decision to surrender and admitting your error.
          If you have a change of heart, just give me the book, verse and line please, and nothing else.

        11. Huh? What am I ceding to you? That’s what I don’t get. It’s nice to know that you think polygamy is fine. I already said the Mormons can believe as they wish and so can you whatever that is.

        12. “So show me. One sentence, just the chapter and verse (or parable if it’s located there). That’s all.”
          Such proof text doesn’t exist. However, the Bible itself was birthed out of the Holy Tradition of the “Eastern” Orthodox Church, and Holy Tradition always required monogamy (unless you had more than one wife before you became a Christian anyway).
          More is expected of Christians than the Hebrews because:
          “When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.” Luke 12:48

        13. I have to admit that your query made me curious as well, so I did some digging. Mind you there isn’t one verse that explicitly says thou shalt not marry more than one woman, but the following excerpt I found seems to lay the ground work for a plausible argument that the bible teaches against polygamy
          ” The clearest evidence that monogamy is God’s ideal is from Christ’s teaching on marriage in Matt. 19:3–6. In this passage, He cited the Genesis creation account, in particular Gen. 1:27 and 2:24, saying ‘the two will become one flesh’, not more than two.
          Another important biblical teaching is the parallel of husband and wife with Christ and the Church in Eph. 5:22–33, which makes sense only with monogamy—Jesus will not have multiple brides.
          The 10th Commandment ‘… You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife [singular] …’ (Exodus 20:17) also presupposes the ideal that there is only one wife. Polygamy is expressly forbidden for church elders (1 Tim. 3:2). And this is not just for elders, because Paul also wrote: ‘each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.’ Paul goes on to explain marital duties in terms that make sense only with one husband to one wife.
          The example of godly people is also important. Isaac and Rebekah were monogamous—they are often used as a model in Jewish weddings today. Other examples were Joseph and Asenath, and Moses and Zipporah. And the only survivors of the Flood were four monogamous couples.”
          But yes I agree the previous mentioned poster seems to have cut and run as finding this wasn’t the most difficult search I’ve had to perform.

      1. There is a very good reason why back in the day it wasn’t immoral and it is now. We used to have a (quite large) surplus of women against men. By not having polygamy, you were actually hurting population growth. Now, polygamy it is bad because you are denying another man a wife. Anyways, this has nothing to do with the bible for me.

  9. When you do a piece like this on the Catholic Church, do not go to a normal Parish. You will find most people are Cafeteria Catholics.
    Find a good traditional order.
    Look for an Opus Dei center, they are very conservative and try to follow the Catholic principles. Its nothing like a stupid Dan Brown novel, trust me.

    1. How do you locate one of those, pray tell? I’ve considered Russian Orthodox, as I assumed that the Catholics went a bit off path a while back.

      1. Well, because of the bad publicity they get from movies, they try to keep thing very low profile.
        Try sending an Email to that addres there, here in Brazil I met them through a friend.
        They keep these center open, they hold activity for local kids, such as science clubs, and have a spiritual direction service, you can schedule half an hour with a priest, to talk about your spirituality.

        1. I may have to contact them directly, they have no centers anywhere even vaguely close to Columbus, Ohio.

        2. Even if there are no centers there are typically Opus Dei groups that meet. Approaching some older members of the congregation can get you leads to find them.

        3. Another group you may look into are the Nazarene Church, most still do Latin mass and the weddings I’ve attended have put special emphasis on love and OBEY into the female’s vows

      2. Opus Dei are one of those ‘you need to find an invite from an Opus Dei’ member type. I don’t recommend ‘infiltrating’ the Opus Dei, not because you’ll get backlash, but because their mission is a particular type of spiritual vocation and they like to make sure their members aren’t playing around.
        You don’t need to go to Opus Dei anyway. In fact, if you want authentic Catholicism, the easiest way to find it now is pretty much finding a church which does traditional Latin masses every Sunday. Generally speaking, when a parish advocates regular Tridentine masses in 2016, they’re trying to keep it as old school as possible. And if the priest’s sermons are ‘Hell is real and most people choose to go there, just read the Biblical stories’ instead of ‘God loves everyone even if you aren’t Catholic, that’s my opinion anyway’, you’re on the right track.
        Also, it’s a misconception to think the Orthodox keep it more pure than Catholics. If religions had marketing tactics, that’s been the Orthodox’s most abused selling point, and it’s not true. It’s honestly hard to explain in a combox how Catholics and Orthodox see authentic Christianity, but the general Catholic viewpoint is that the Orthodox don’t teach anything heretical. The problem is not being in communion with Rome i.e not under the leadership of the successor of Peter. It’s a big no-no, as taught by Jesus Christ Himself. This also goes for other Churches that have Apostolic Succession (like the Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church).
        Just for the record, I’m not a good Catholic, but the more I read about it, the more I see the world’s greatest ‘alpha males’ come from this religion. Whether it’s St. Francis going into a Muslim camp and talking with the Sultan during a Crusade, or St Leo the Great meeting Attila the Hun and preventing him from sacking Rome, these guys were the real gangsters.
        Oh, and the women? If only there were more women like Joan of Arc, Catherine of Sienna, and St. Hildegard of Bingen. Oh, and the nine sisters who made a guerilla gang and waged war against the Roman Empire to save Christians. Jeez, women were a different breed in those times.

    2. As a non-Catholic this is the first time I’ve every heard anything positive about Opus Dei

    3. I think I attended a performance by Opus Dei and Da Knights once at a small club, can’t remember any of the tunes, though.

    4. OMG, are you someone who really follows the teachings of the Church? Thank you brother for being a faithful member of the laity. Finally, someone else who is not a liberated Catholic.

      1. Thank you, Brother.
        I am trying and will continue to keep the Faith, as long as God wills it.
        Christ’s peace to you!!

        1. Discard the faulty man made religions and dogmas. Pray upon the blood of Yehusua and be born again. He is the way the truth and the life. No man may go to the father but through him.

    5. Catholicism is fallen. Romanism is dsiguised paganism. Your cardinals already have been infiltrated by high level satanists and levayan satanists. Your pontifex is a globalist talking piece, and high level mason. Soros, Rockefeller, Rothschild and Hillary are enjoying their bukkake on the sheep.

      1. “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
        The Church is fine. We have special guarantees.

        1. You know what the word church refers to right? The body. The body of Christ aka the people aka the congregation of believers and saved. These are the Israelites. No need for a clergy, magic wafers or wine (wine socially is fine, but any transmutation rituals is magic and hence prohibited). I implore you to look into scripture only. And be guided by the spirit.

        2. Thank you Random Internet Stranger, and Thank you Luther for for saving us from a evil church… I should listen to you.. and not to the genius philosopher Saints such as Augustine, Thomas, Aphonsos and Sales.
          I will be praying the Rosary for your soul tonight, my fellow herectic.
          Blessings of the Immaculate Virgin to you!

    6. “When you do a piece like this on the Catholic Church, do not go to a normal Parish. You will find most people are Cafeteria Catholics.
      Find a good traditional order.”
      With the current pope getting soft on queer-boy marriage – the independant traditional orders who know the pope has lost it will be trickier to find, but one can find them.

  10. Good analysis. I agree with a lot of what you say, and in fact I am considering an article on how to date Mormons.
    I was always wary as a Mormon missionary of bringing investigators to the fast and testimony meeting, which you describe. This happens only once a month; the other weeks, members of the congregation are selected to give short sermons. The problem is everybody abstains from food for 24 hours and has low blood sugar, which makes them a little weird. Sometimes fat women go up to the pulpit and blubber about everything wrong in their lives.
    It’s true, the alcohol prohibition makes parties and dates a more challenging time to have fun. Get ready for lots of board games. It is also true that Mormons are susceptible to caving in on principles. I wouldn’t consider polyamy an example of this, however. We live in a society that makes successful polygamy impossible; we have to recognize that. Look at the staunch Mormon opposition to homosexuality and marriage perversions. Certain things we don’t cave in on.
    I also disagree that Mormons are hostile toward game. You can do it, you just have to tweak the game a bit. Understand that Mormon girls are sheltered, socially awkward, have princess mentalities, and insecure. After reading ROK’s game material I was able to successfully tweak it to be successful with Mormons.
    Also, I definitely understand being worried that a virgin in her twenties who may not have even kissed much would be an intimately unfullfilling wife. But I can tell you from experience that this is not true. For me, I ended up fullfilled.

    1. No booze no coffee no premarital and I hate board games (except chess).”
      No mormonism for me.

      1. A lot of them cheat on that. But premarital sex with no intention of marriage. You do not want a Mormon

    2. They are suckers for a hard working man (good provider) who is friendly. They value sincerity. So be open about your intentions. Yes bad boys are attractive so long as they do not seem that bad. And they like older guys more than most younger girls. I would guess most of them did well with their fathers. Well raised

    3. ” We live in a society that makes successful polygamy impossible; ” With more and more Muslim’s coming to our country and accusing our society of being racist against their values, I figure we are just a couple of Supreme Court rulings away from legalized Polygamy.

      1. You are right the precedent was set in Lawrence v. Texas
        They can not stop you from being a polygamist anymore. They can only stop you from having more than one license. So instead you make up civil contracts that are the same as marriage. If you need tax breaks everyone marries each other. The joys of same sex marriage

      2. For polygamy to work for every man there should also be 4 girls born per boy but it just doesn’t happen. Of course if it did happen they shouldn’t have voting rights or we’d be screwed.

    4. Socially awkward? Yes! Home schooled mormons are better in this regard. As for princess mentality, isn’t it even more important with Mormon girls to search for strong IOIs? A devil may care attitude certainly becomes more important, I’ve found, since the pretty ones get so much beta attention. That’s the most important aspect of game with a mormon girl besides rigorous scrutiny of her past and screening in the present. I’ve also found that dressing well is especially important so you stand out from the crowd in a good way.

  11. I had a three month out of town job in Salt Lake. What I found is that semi fallen Mormon girls are rather hot. They run better looking than average (cleaner). And what they see as bad girls, may only be one intimate boyfriend that fell through. Once so sullied they are often open to none Mormons of good intentions (their family will try to convert you). And being single seems to be illegal. I would make a good impression on a girl who turned out to be taken and she would introduce me to a friend or a sister. That is both the good and the bad. They want to get married. I never met a single slut, though I am sure they have them in abundance. I just ended up in a very moron social circle while I was there. Years later I still think of the one I left behind there.

    1. I love salt lake, it’s got everything and the mountains and people are friendly but over the last few years more and more people from California keep moving out so now it’s half hipster/gay. I read it’s now the fourth gayest city per capita and the homeless population is growing. The cost of living wasn’t bad either but that’s going up so more than likely it’s downhill in the future.

    1. Write your own article then if you don’t like it. Nobody is stopping you from contributing what you consider “not circle jerk”.

      1. I’m sorry are there not enough men in your circle that you feel left out. With hand on cock save your own hahahaha

        1. What are you going on about precisely? You’re just here to snarl at the manosphere? Do you have what they call “a point” other than ad hominem?

        2. That’s cute lol you even have a name for your clubhouse lmfao HAHAHA the fucking manosphere he says lol pathetic

        3. Ok, on block. I have no time for idiots and sneering fools.

        4. You seem to have an affiliation with cock and men. You project more than a multiplex.

      1. Lmfao like some Romans were like few Catholic priests are lol like any human placed in position of power could be Lol don’t be so fucking dense

        1. I could just tell by your name meta game that your far too stupid to justify explaining history to. All your good for is repeating facts with that cock still gargling down your throat

        2. So that’s your hobby as well? Concerning yourself with where other men see fit to place their cock. Lmfao all you have to do is ask and I’m sure you could find someone to tickle that butthole of yours bahaha ha

        3. I have no love for the Slims, but even a couple hundred years ago, if you could bleed, you were expected to breed.
          Calling Mohammed a pedophile would be to insert our current values on an absolutely different period in history.

        4. Well the point is that the Hadith records the deeds & life of Mohammed and he is supposedly the ideal example of a male believer (although not perfect). The question is whether the average Muslim (or Christian or Jew) follows that literally. A believer could find justification of taking a child bride regardless of what the calendar says.
          It runs the spectrum from the members of ISIS to that gay American Muslim I saw on that “anti-Islamophobic” feelgood commercial.

        5. No. Taking a 6 year old slave to be your wife is pedo all the way. You are trying to adjucate an evil act through an historical lense.

        6. Aisha wasn’t a slave, she was a tribute by her father. If Mohammed was a bloodthirsty pedo/rapist, he wouldn’t have waited for her to hit puberty. The concept of deigning a child to marry someone long before they’re an adult is, again, incredibly common for the age.
          Joseph was in his 40s-50s, and Mary was all of 12 when she gave birth to Jesus. Shall we call Joseph a pedo/rapist as well?

        7. No way to know the ages of Mary or Joseph from the bible or any other historic records. You’re going to have to justify your lolita fetish some other way.

        8. Completely false, and you’re so out of your depth that you have nothing except to hurl ad hominems at me. Jewish girls got married anywhere from 10-15. Mary left the Temple at 12. She was Joseph’s second wife.
          Shocking, the ancients had different rules then us. It’s almost like they died much, much earlier, so the onus was on them to procreate immediately.

        9. Average life span then was around 35, and marriage usually happened in teenage years. Nobody knows except for the general age range for jewish girls of that era. That’s all there is. Everything else is projection. But your going to defend your claim for your own reasons… because that’s what you do.

      1. *slow clap* I grow tired of these redundant words. Have a nice circle jerk boys 🙂

        1. we’ll be sure to dedicate the spunky biscuit to your memory
          Alternatively you could stop being so delicate and argue your case

        2. Lol nice one. Unfortunately I’ve argued my case many times over in fact. Sadly I get more attention with trolling then reasonable discussion. So ehh passing the time while I finish up work for the day. Happy Friday to all btw 🤗

  12. You got some things wrong. For one thing, most Mormon women rule the roost and think that’s what’s proper; combine that with prudishness and you can have a really bad wife. Mormon millenials in particular are very bossy. Also you can even be excommunicated for trying to use priesthood to get your wife to obey you. Mormons aren’t what they used to be, but if you go through many and screen carefully, you could end up with a relatively submissive virgin. She’d require you to be a convert though. If they wouldn’t give up their virginity because of their faith, they wouldn’t yield on their husband being Mormon, either.

    1. Also, Mormons are different in different locations. Mormons in San Francisco are different from small town Arizona.

    1. It isn’t really about laughing at their religion. The author appears to be searching out pockets of where there may still be decent women to find who are not tatted up slut nob slobbering cunts. If Mormons have them, then he’s doing us a service (if some of us are looking to make a family with a virginal bride). Our opinions on Mormons (or Muslims, or Amish, or whatever) don’t come into play really.

        1. I rather enjoyed making that turn of a phrase, heh.

      1. I understand what the author of the article is doing and I commend him for it. But I still stand by my post.

  13. Reads like a nightmare. No thanks to delusional “happy jolly” people. They probably love Christian rock music too, eh. Let’s sing, kids, “Jesus Is Our Savior”, on a cute major pentatonic scale, all day long.
    Scientology comes to mind. A bunch of weaklings who come together to practice “positivity” etc. and get a heart attack when you are anything but meek and super friendly and “positive”. Friend of mine joined them.

        1. well I wasn’t. Didn’t you used to say you had anger issues? Not my business if so, and that wasn’t what I meant

        2. well I heard that from the buddhist point of view you can define them against ‘lust issues’ and ‘issues of delusion’ being the three complexes of emotion and thought that make our lives miserable
          alternatively, whatever you ‘ad

        3. I think anger and lust are quite valid things. But I think they become “issues” when, for example, you fear those emotions or feel ashamed or guilty for them, which causes you to keep acting them out. Hence why sexual shame ironically can lead to promiscuity. Unfulfilling sex with shame leads to a desire for more sex – that is once more unfulfilling. etc

        4. yeah, I probably agree with that – at least tentatively. The whole buddhist transcendental take on emotions etc can be very un-human. Your emphasis is overcoming fear, shame etc, but in some sense the end purpose here may be self-control i.e. seeking to limit the influence such emotions / desires etc may have over one. You are a crypto-stoic perhaps

        5. Haha!
          I don’t know what I am. Maybe one day I will be able to tell you what I am, when I fully know and understand myself.
          It is less about overcoming (implies a fight) and more about accepting and loving. Here’s the thing: A fear that you are fully conscious and accepting of – ceases to exist.
          My goal is not to control the self. My goal is to free the self from the control of the mind (which fosters shame, guilt and fear through judgment).

        6. “one day I will be able to tell you what I am, when I fully know and understand myself.”
          when you have become either
          a) an ascended master, or
          b) a scientologist

        7. My goal is not to control the self. My goal is to free the self from the control of the mind (which fosters shame, guilt and fear through judgment).
          We’re one, we’re not divided. That’s a Medieval notion, dualism.
          A body without direction from the mind becomes a wandering cadaver. Maybe I don’t understand precisely what your goal is, or it’s lost in translation somewhere. Your mind IS you, your body is the vessel that houses it. Unshackle the two and you go into a coma.

        8. Ah. I actually agree with that. We are indeed one. My mistake of not phrasing it better.
          What I mean is: I tend to be very head-driven, it is like an addiction. What I want is to bring the body and instincts into it and reunite the whole. Also, my mind is unhealthy, filed with many beliefs and memes that undermine myself.
          Analogy: Think of a man who is infected with feminism. To be able to actually adapt the “I am meek and feminine” idea, the man must dissociate or be forced to dissociate from his body and be driven purely by the ideological framework of feminism. He will feel his body protest, but keep going out of social pressure and his infected unhealthy mind. This man would be well-advised to start being mindful of his body, to free it from “the control of his (damaged) mind”.
          Now, what do I mean by “damaged” or “infected”?
          I think that our body energetically has boundaries. They are like an invisible protective layer around the skin and maybe even farther. When the boundaries get violated, a trauma is induced. Or in other words: A wound. When this wound is healed, the boundaries are restored and it is as if nothing ever happened. This can be physical, but it can also be mental. Let’s say you get raped. Then your energetical body is damaged around your genitalia. But you can also be manipulated psychologically and forced to learn and adopt things you do not believe in, for example in school. Then you have a violation of boundaries around your brain. I can actually feel this.
          Let’s imagine a boy who grows up with a narcissistic abusive mother who forces him into feminism. She will hurt him again and again. And he has the capacity to heal, but not the opportunity, because the abuse does not stop. Sooner or later, he gives up on the wish to heal, because it seems fruitless. Instead, he then identifies with the wound. I think that is what Buddhism means with “ego”. The wound is “I must be feminine”. And since it cannot be healed, at some point, it is concluded that the wound is the self.

    1. If they’re genuinely happy then so what? That happens you know Tom.

      1. exactly, if one has to live in a matrix one might as well live in one with hot pious and virginal women

      2. Genuinely happy not for who they are, but for their identification with a group and vapid belief system. Take that away or make them question it and gone is their happiness.
        Besides, acting like you are happy all the time does not mean you are.

        1. There is no “who you are” that is independent of your actions and interactions with other people. We’re a social animal, there is no “prime me” that exists outside of reality. Even in rejecting other groups you are essentially acting and reacting to a group.
          Maybe they’re not acting Tom. Some people can be genuinely happy. If they’re happy singing songs with other people and canning food, who are you to judge them and call them artificial?

        2. “There is no “who you are” that is independent of your actions and interactions with other people.”
          With all due respect, that is silly. Maybe that’s what life feels like to you, being an extrovert. I do not see this at all.
          You will disagree with me saying it, but their sensitivity and strong judgment of anything outside their “morals” just proves to me that they are not at peace with their “darker sides”. They do not seem like complete people, more like caricatures. They happiness they feel seems to me more like the happiness a heroin addict feels when he gets a shot.

        3. With all due respect, that is silly.
          Not at all. Rejecting groups is reacting to groups, just like joining in groups is reacting to groups, and both help shape your “true you”. End of the day your social nature is what helps define your personality. If you reject groups, fine and great, but you’re still influenced in how your personality is formed by your rejecting them.
          You’re strongly judging them Tom. You’re doing the same thing you’re accusing them of doing.
          We’re creatures in the world and of course can choose to do bad things. That doesn’t mean that this creates a desire to do those bad things however. That’s a “dark side”. Knowing you can but not wishing to dwell on it is not unhealthy, nor is recognizing it and exploring it.

        4. “You’re strongly judging them Tom. You’re doing the same thing you’re accusing them of doing.”
          I am not quite sure that is true, but neither are you entirely wrong. I’ll think about it a little.

        5. Okay, thought about it.
          I am not judging them in the same way they would judge me.
          You see, when I say they are idiots, it is less me trying to make an objective point. It is more an emotional expression of mine I feel towards the idea of being forced to live a certain way. It is not me saying it is “bad”. I don’t think I said that. It is me uttering a personal preference / emotional reaction.
          On the other hand, religious people are quite the opposite. They do not really listen to their feelings or personal preferences. They have an ideology they condition themselves to repeat in their heads over and over. When they say “premarital sex is bad”, they really mean it. It is not them saying “I personally prefer to live this way”, it is them saying “this it the right and only way to live, because it is what God wants us to do etc yada yada and everything else is ‘satanic’ and all others will burn in hell”. They say it with fanatical 100% certainty. I mean, the greatest men we can think of probably would never claim they are 100% certain of their sophisticated ideas and works. But these people do just that.
          Ironically, it seems, the most insecure people are the most dogmatic – you just have to give them a chance to “prove themselves” for a “greater cause”.
          Now, this blind follower thing may actually be a fine thing for most people, as I am starting to consider that most people may indeed be sheep and happy that way. I am not entirely convinced, though. Anyhow, I would hate living such a life.

        6. I am not judging them in the same way they would judge me.
          Oh come now. And they’d say the same thing when they said something about you. That’s a cop out. In this post you call them blind sheep, fanatics, insecure and somehow possessed of a way to force you into their ideas. That sounds pretty damned judgemental to me.
          It is more an emotional expression of mine I feel towards the idea of being forced to live a certain way.
          They aren’t forcing you to live in any way whatsoever. I’m now confused about why precisely you think that this is the case?
          They do not really listen to their feelings or personal preferences.
          The fuck they don’t. How would you know that anyway Tom? Do you think that they’re not in possession of a full range of emotions? I guarantee you, Mormons cry when their children die, and they despair when a tornado rolls through their town. What they DON’T do is sit and bemoan fate, gnash their teeth at reality and declare their sadness and despair as their sole focus from that point forward, curse happiness and get lost in subjectivism. They stand up, dust off, and get to work rebuilding the town (or coming to terms with their grief over the loss of a child). Your perception of them is making them into cartoon caricatures of human beings, it’s dehumanizing them so that the primacy of “your world view” remains unchallenged in your mind.
          Here’s a hint: Being happy in life (or content) is a choice. You will have bad things happen to you, and you will have negative reactions to them, just as the Mormons do. Their difference is that they don’t just stop functioning when something bad happens, they fix the issue (or resolve it) and move on. Happiness, just like brooding darkness, is a choice.
          They say it with fanatical 100% certainty.
          So. Fucking. What? Big deal. They don’t seek to put a gun in your face to force you to accept that. So your perception of their certainty makes you upset with them, but end of the day it’s no skin off your nose, so why even bother caring about it?
          Here’s a neat thought experiment for you (and I do NOT mean offense by it, I like you actually). Maybe their viewpoint of finding a way to be happy in the face of adversity is the mentally healthier way to live, and maybe you’ve got it wrong (I’m not talking about religion, I mean how one accepts life). What then?

  14. With my first job out of college, I lived in Salt Lake City. I was highly impressed by how clean and friendly and well-used the downtown was – definitely the influence of Mormon businessmen who by example made other businessmen comport to decent behavior with customers. The Mormons are constantly trying to recruit – at work, and even in SLC – their supposed fortress. But they’re not pushy. It’s more like … show you in a friendly way and remind you. At work, it was the same.
    Of course, I learned that there are basically 3 groups: Latter-Day Ain’ts (fallen Mormons), Mormons, and Latter Day Saints (the ones who tithe their 10% and are good and have temple rights). Workplace groups got more fun because the Mormon presence and factions were so strong.
    I toured the West Jordan temple with co-workers before it was consecrated – and it was interesting. Good Mormons, I learned, have a 2-year supply of canned food (home-canned, or canned at one of their centers in #10 cans!). They run their own welfare program. They own fisheries and canneries and farms. They’re very patriarchal, as was noted. In short, they’re very, very nice people, and seem to resist the corruption of the west pretty well.

  15. I suspect a lot of bad information about the Mormons has gotten out and become part of our folklore, but I gather that they promoted the idea of inhabited exoplanets well ahead of the evidence that any exoplanets existed, their inhabited status currently unknown. Of course the idea already circulated in the early United States during Joseph Smith’s lifetime; Voltaire wrote a story based on that premise in the previous century, and I think you could find it translated into English in the early 19th Century.
    So does this make Mormonism a kind of “futuristic” religion, but inadvertently so?

    1. For many years, leftists have spread lies about Mormon “extreme beliefs.” The same tactics they are using to tear down Trump, they’ve gotten plenty of practice with on Mormons.

  16. When a cyclist rides by in a white shirt and tie, thaaat’s a Mormon…
    (Sung to the tune of “That’s Amore”)

    1. When their eyes begin to shine like they’ve seen the divine, thaaat’s a Mormon….

    1. Who is the blue pill bitch who reported my comment as spam? It was no more “spam” than the other comments before or after? Is ROK a site in decline now? Comments are more censored than HuffPo.

  17. Does the LDS Church sell globes of the exoplanet Kolob?
    I’d like to have a globe like that to put in my study. Then I can rub my hands over it and say, “He who controls Kolob, controls the Universe!”

  18. Back when I was living in Oregon, I had a very similar experience. A friendly guy about my age struck up a conversation with me while I was eating lunch in a taco shop, and just before we parted ways he revealed to me that he was a Mormon missionary, and that he’d “seen something special in me”. He invited me to come to start visiting his church and doing Bible studies with his Mormon sister missionary friends. I’m Catholic and really had no interest in becoming anything else, but I figured what the hell, it might be an interesting experience and way to meet new people. For about a month, I was connected to the church, going to service each week and meeting with the sister missionaries every few days for Bible studies; I even went on a day trip with them to the grand Portland Oregon Temple. My observations were much the same as Max Roscoe’s; here are some additional ones I had:
    -Extremely positive, upbeat, happy people who are constantly smiling and laughing; I always felt as though I was around a ray of sunshine. The happiest of all I ever saw them was when they were speaking about God and their faith, which is evidence of their strong conviction.
    -Very traditional roles. The first day I went to church, there was a session in which we were all instructed on ways to be a good husband/wife, by adhering to the roles put forward in the Bible. There was an additional session on their view of courtship in which they stressed the importance of chivalry, ladylikeness, modesty, respect for the opposite sex, etc. Can’t say any of the other churches I’ve been to have done this.
    -Very pretty girls. Particularly the two missionaries who I regularly met with. All of them were always exceptionally well-dressed and groomed for church.
    -Most of the people there shared very similar political views with me. I was amazed to find out over time just how many fellow members of my College Republican club were also members of the church.
    -Could feel cultlike at times. One guy I made friends with there always displayed a strong love and faith towards his “saved” family members and friends, but seemed unusually harsh and cold when talking about his atheist dad. After I disassociated with the church, there was one member (the one whom I had become closest with) who I’d run into from time-to-time at a local coffee shop, and he’d always snub me and give me the cold shoulder when I’d greet him.
    -Not always respectful of personal boundaries. The missionaries were very sweet, but VERY pushy and hard to get away from. They were trying to pressure me into getting a baptism (they even set up a date for one which I ended up bailing out on), and into meeting on a daily basis, which simply wasn’t possible for me. They often tried to get personal information about my parents and sister in hopes of converting them too, which I consistently refused to give them.
    -Some subtle use of shaming and guilt-tripping. The first day I came to the church as a visitor, a woman speaking at the pulpit related a story about a guy in a position similar to mine who they saw as special just like me, brought in, worked to convert, and who left them. She cried emotionally, spoke of how broken-hearted she was that they had lost “this special boy”, and how she feared for his soul. Knowing how hurt many of the church members were going to be made it all the more difficult for me to distance myself.
    -Some EXTREMELY bizarre beliefs, which they sort of tried to keep concealed from me during the missionary process but which I found out over time.
    All in all, it was an interesting experience, but not really the one for me. I was pretty happy when things returned to normal.

  19. I dislike mormons because they are pro open borders. They want as many people to pour into this country so they can try to recruit them for their religion. With that said, they sure were right about black people!

  20. Will there be one about the jehovos? Had a relative get involved with them for about year. The last straw for her is when she informed them her mother would never convert (staunch catholic) and they told her to stop seeing her. They were almost as bad as democrats.

    1. I never liked those Jehoshaphats, back in my drinking days they always came knocking on my door on Saturday mornings disturbing my Friday night recovery time to tell me about the wonders of…….whatever. They struck me as somewhat uptight because they never accepted the beer I offered.

        1. I’m sure that would work but I would have felt kind of silly showing them my talllywhacker.

      1. My mom used to seriously get us to be really quiet and not make any noise when the Jehovah’s came down the street. It was quite funny, in retrospect.

        1. My mom did the same thing, my grandmother however would meet them at the door with her bible and explain the gospel to them as only an old lady Southern Baptist could, they usually gave up after a while.

  21. Because of my job I’ve spent a lot of time in close proximity of Mormons over the last 4 years and have grown very acquainted with their culture. This article is pretty spot on because there are quite a few pros to the culture (super patriarchal, very conservative political views, good-looking sexually inexperienced feminine women, hard-working, etc.) My Mormon friends always roll their eyes but still get a kick out of when me and my other buddies regale them with stories of our debauchery and sexual conquests. I joke with them that I’m going to convert and marry a sweet Mormon virgin when I’m ready to settle down.

    1. “I joke with them that I’m going to convert and marry a sweet Mormon virgin when I’m ready to settle down.”
      After telling the Mormon dudes all the tales of the nsa fun & sin you’re having, to then go on and tell them this, is like sticking the shiv in and giving it a twist.

    1. Shame on the virgin she marries who actually believes her when she says, “This is my first time”

  22. “I love Heavenly Father and Joseph Smith is the true prophet”
    Looks like we have the Mormon Shahada right here, gentlemen.

  23. Maybe being a Mormon is not for you but you can’t fault them for their beliefs and community. I would rather my new neighbors be Mormons than BLM activists any day of the week.

  24. One day when I was out, these two young Mormon girls, one blonde and one brunette, were trying to get me to come to their church. I’m not the religious type so I just blew them off. Blew that one…

  25. Am I really the only conservative atheist?
    I want to build a patriarchal atheist society. I hate how most atheists are liberal SJW feminazi fags. I’m definitely in a lonely position.

    1. “I hate how most atheists are liberal SJW feminazi fags.”
      Precisely why there cannot be a conservative, patriarchal society built around atheism. Most people need some kind of guiding force to keep them moral and grounded.

      1. But can’t it be so that only women believe but men are “in the know” that there is no god? It seems in fact what this article’s subtext is about because the author agrees that the belief system is dubious but otherwise has some nice characteristics.

      2. Nope. A firm set of rules, with foundation in simple reason would suffice. But, any law is as good as it is implemented and enforced. 🙂

        1. I’d say at least there needs to be some kind of philosophy in place (i.e something like Buddhism) which provides some sort of higher meaning/purpose.

        2. Atheistic and patriarchal? Communist China, for one. Pantheistic/shamanistic and patriarchal? 99% of indigenous societies.
          Therefore, an upgraded, atheistic, patriarchal “Mark 2.0” society is not THAT unconceivable.
          p.s. (BTW, Greece in time of Pericles kept its religion more in formal manner, then otherwise…)

        3. I can agree with that. The concept of “Rightful Heirs ” of the World, and rules and morals accompanying that could be one of the possibilities. Theology and religion have their perks, but are NOT obligatory for a society to function. Philosophy, morals and ethics is.

        4. And where are they today? China is recognizing a god; as a matter of fact, China’s constitution recognizes religion and a god; the indigenous societies are near extinct. Could that have had anything to do with their atheistic beliefs?

        5. Wrong. China’s constitution just recognizes and insures a free right to worship (well, bit less so in case of Roman-Catholics)…but its core is purely marxist and atheist (with some specific, local flavoring).
          Indigenous societies didn’t lack morals (in fact, they were/are FAR superior to modern societies in that specific aspect) and sustainable economics – but, lacked the capacity for big military conquests (and, likewise, defense), made easier by monotheistic, state-sponsored constructs.

    2. Certainly. Atheism is incompatible with Patriarchy. The very notion of Patriarchy goes back to a belief in a Father God.

      1. Why would a god have a sex? Does “he” have a penis? Does he reproduce with female goddesses?

        1. Obviously, you are not familiar with the notion of Patriarchy. It has nothing to do with the penis, but with rulership, headship, master, and pacesetter. It just so happens that, among humans, the person with the penis was given the burden of being the Patriarch. A God, to be truly God, cannot be limited to such mundane requirements though. Are you aware that both the male and the female were created “in the image of God”? Does that make God a hermaphrodite?
          Your knowledge of God is woefully inadequate, and your mind unable to comprehend God’s nature. It is easier to explain the theory of relativity to a kindergartener, than to teach you about who or what God is.

        2. “Your knowledge of God is woefully inadequate, and your mind unable to comprehend God’s nature. It is easier to explain the theory of relativity to a kindergartener, than to teach you about who or what God is.”
          Your cheap ad hominem proves it is the other way around.

        3. Seriously? Equating a penis with Patriarchy? Sure you knew that there are countless gays who are “women” to some men out there.
          Manhood = strength; penis only happens to be a symbol of that strength.

  26. I dated a Mormon chick for several years, and had the misfortune of attending a few of those testimonial services as well as getting her to open up about some of the things I “wasn’t ready” to know as an outsider.
    While this article paints them as happy-go-lucky people (and I’m sure some of them are), I found the culture incredibly creepy and off-putting, like I was trapped in a particularly bad episode of the X-files.
    Secret handshakes, cows in the basement of the church to be used for some sort of communing-with-dead-relatives seance (yes, really), and a metric ton of masonic symbolism were more than enough to trip my bullshit detector.
    Even if I hadn’t gotten an eyeful of that stuff, over time it became obvious that Mormonism is a serious perversion of biblical Christianity, and it bothers me that most Mormons attempt to hide that fact when talking about their faith with you. The Mormons I met went out of their way to make it seem like LDS worship the same Christ that Christians do. In reality, they do not. Mormons believe that Christ and Lucifer are brothers, that every man has the potential to ascend to godhood and rule his own planet in the afterlife, and a host of other stuff that is in no way compatible and oftentimes directly opposed to biblical Christian doctrine.
    Whether or not you think that all religions are phony is immaterial. Mormonism actively seeks to hide what it truly is, whereas most other major faiths do not.
    The whole forbidden temple thing should be your first clue that something’s not right. Traditional Christianity is open to everyone from the start. There are no secrets that require a higher level of standing in the church community to unlock. There are no hoops to jump through before you’re allowed to see behind the curtain, so to speak. The whole Mormon enterprise is pretty shady, to be frank, and I would certainly never again spend time with a girl who willingly gave her mind over to it.

    1. “Mormonism is a serious perversion of biblical Christianity, and it
      bothers me that most Mormons attempt to hide that fact when talking
      about their faith with you. The Mormons I met went out of their way to
      make it seem like LDS worship the same Christ that Christians do. In
      reality, they do not. Mormons believe that Christ and Lucifer are
      brothers, that every man has the potential to ascend to godhood and rule
      his own planet in the afterlife, and a host of other stuff that is in
      no way compatible and oftentimes directly opposed to biblical Christian
      Any group that doesn’t worship the Triune God is Post-Christian at best, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are probably the two biggest and most annoying examples.

    2. You are absolutely right. Mormonism is a perversion of Christianity. It is a corporation full of secrets and lies, and its aim is to get your money and free labour. I’m glad I got out of it. It is a lot better to go to just about any other normal Christian church. Look information from alternate sites, weigh the facts and judge for yourself.

      1. Their theology is just retarded. Real Christianity is much more rich and realistic in comparison.

  27. Thanks. That was a good balanced view of Mormonism. I only have one thing to nitpick though. I think “Somewhat unaccepted in mainstream culture” would be a PRO not a CON.

  28. Been there, done that. I was a mormon for over 20 years, full time mission and everything. Because of that I passed many wonderful women I could have married because they were not temple-worthy or even members of the mormon church. Few key points on mormons:
    1. Mormon church members are sweet and cool. They
    are sincere and good people. They are good friends, good bosses, etc. But
    if they are really into their church they are always looking ways to share
    the gospel with you, i.e. convert you.
    2. Mormon girls have a princess syndrome. Because
    they are God’s elect people they deserve the best. Their future husband
    should have served a full-time mission, be from a good mormon family,
    handsome, educated, with a good well-paying job, never-married, virgin. But
    eventually they will divorce you, as is happening a lot in mormon church
    nowadays. Even as wifes, they do not really taught to respect their
    husbands unless you have player-like qualities. Otherwise they are many times the leaders and bosses of their families. And because mormon men really can’t cheat, they are bound to follow her lead.
    3. Mormon church is a fraud and fake. It is
    to get members money and volunteer work for free. The faith is constructed
    in such clever way that it usually takes about 20 to 30 years for normal
    members to really start questioning the divinity and truthfulness of the
    church, i.e. their most productive years. To be saved you need to go to
    the temple. And to get to the temple you need to pay 10 % of your yearly
    4. If you are a member of considering
    becoming one, ask critical questions. Look information from alternate
    sources. The interesting thing is that all the people I know who were the
    strongest members and who used a lot of their time to defend the church
    against attacks from non-believers finally realized that the attackers of
    the church were right and that the church itself was lying just about
    everything. For example if members want to calculate the right amount of
    tithing they should follow the guidance given in the mission president
    handbook. And that is something their bishop is not telling them. This
    article talks about that:
    You can
    have sex with a mormon girl if you seduce them, which means that they will
    later confess their sin to their bishop and that is the end of your
    relationship. Otherwise she will be kicked out of church eventually.
    If you get
    married with a mormon woman she might insist on wearing her garment (church
    underwear) even when sleeping. She will put them on right after sex. And she is
    not very open to anything involving sex since it has been something very wrong
    all her life.
    The only
    smart way to get a mormon girl who is a virgin, is to seduce her, and help her
    see that her church is fake, and then marry her. They are good girls. Do this
    only if you want something more than just sex or fun. Be prepared to proceed a
    lot slower than with regular women.

    1. “Because of that I passed many wonderful women I could have married because they were not temple-worthy”
      Leaving out the other negative aspects you covered, ^ that is a hard downside. Unless there were big Mormon youth festivals , where you could meet a good selection of young women so you could find your ideal one, it would suck to get to know cool sexy women outside the church that you wanted, but had to pass up. I see some guy below said he dated a Mormon girl so seems you can date outside the church, its just that they must convert to the faith for marriage + I guess be the type to be accepted by the others.

      1. You are right. You can date a non-mormon but you are strongly expected and adviced to marry only a member of the same church in the mormon temple. That is why many faithful mormon men and woman especially outside of US never marry and never have kids. It is just impossible to find a spouse from a very limited selection of worthy members.

  29. watch BYU football games you see the student section sober as judges cheering on their football team it’s strange

  30. Max, this article is certainly not a scholarly attempt at breaking down the merits of the LDS religion as only a few hours of experience and some other cursory information, however inaccurate, is all you base this article on. I wonder why you bothered writing this at all.

  31. I’m Ex-Mormon. First, Mormons don’t have “priests”. They have Bishops. They have a hierarchy broadly similar to the Catholic Church, with different “ranks”, and without the clothing and big hats. All Mormon leaders are expected to dress more or less like an IBM salesman. Plain dark suits and ties are the order of the day. Think Men in Black, only on a mission from God.
    I left the church not because of any personal conflicts or ethical issues. I just didn’t believe in the founding or doctrine anymore (I’m a general non-Trinitarian Christian now, sometimes I’ll use Arian as a very rough approximation of where I am). But there are many aspects of the church I miss. They’e a very tight-knit bunch, with an almost Jewish sense of clannishness. Once you’re a member, other members will bend over backwards to help you with anything. Financial problems? You’ll never go hungry as a Mormon. And of course, there’s the family focus, and the focus on females as being good and loving helpmates to their husbands. Which is of course why liberalism hates Mormons so.

  32. When approached by them, I ask if I can have alcohol or coffee. When they say no, I simply say, “well, we’re through here”

  33. Mormonism sounds good. I am at slightly considering converting at some point, or raising my offspring as mormons. God knows we have enough heathenry in America otherwise. I also believe polygamy is nature’s way. It is the holy grail of “game”.
    At the end of the day, the religions which are multiplying fastest will win. Right now that is Islam. One need only look to Europe. I would feel better converting to Mormonism than submitting to Islam. Catholicism and Protestantism are in decline.

  34. With the considerate amount of research and time spent with Mormons, you missed a big glaring fact. Mormonism is NOT Christianity. And I am not stating this is in the way Moslems pull the no true Scotsman fallacy on Isis. I saying LITERALLY, Mormonism does not worship Yeshua Hamasiach aka Christos aka ieosus, aka the anointed one aka Jesus as the son of Yahuah, the truth, the way, and the life. They see him as another illuminated one who achieved Godhood (sound familiar?) and now rules over this world. Biblical scripture clearly state Yeshua saying, “I am not of this world.”
    I agree: Patricarchy – absolutely good.
    Chaste, feminine, devoted and pretty women – good.
    Strong family, strong society – good.
    But Mormonism is not the way; smith was a Wiccan witch as well as a 33rd degree mason, who founded his false church on fake tall-Tales. Don’t be fooled people. He is one of the enemy and is burning in hell.

  35. “Mormons known for honesty” – while this is certainly true, I believe Utah is also the #1 state for financial fraud, according to FBI. Lot of scams/pyramid schemes/boiler rooms, etc operating there.

  36. Lol, gotta love the flawed logic of this cult. Your hearts desire is sinful on earth, so if you holdout you will be rewarded with it in heaven because it’s okay to do it there.

  37. “Many finance companies set up offices in Utah because the Mormons are renowned for their honesty.” True, but Utah is also known for a lot of boiler room operations – probably from mormons gone bad.
    Oh yeah – don’t forget when a mormon goes bad, they REALLY go bad. Google Lia Lor to see who I’m talking about.

  38. Insightful article – thanks for posting.
    Even for non-mormon christians who criticize the mormons, it’s time to put the differences aside.
    Unfortunately the attack on the christian family way of life by the elite over the pass few decades has been very successful. Now with the politicians bringing in dimwitted third world lower primates who are reproducing like houseflies, the white christians are becoming the minority. As things stand right now, that unless each Christian couple goes Brady Bunch and as 6 kids – biologicallly born from each couple – the demographic projection says whites will even less significant in the futre. It is the mormons with their multiple wives and larger extended famiy structures that will play a key role in offsetting total extinction. And I approve of their tribalism – this is something all christian families should not have thrown under the bus.

  39. “like the inherent goodness of white skin”
    No, there’s none of that.
    “changed vital church doctrine like polygamy”
    This is was partly because there was no legal choice in the matter. Also you were never “damned” for not engaging in plural marriage. Not on principle. Specific people were commanded to do it.

  40. “But the payoff is an extremely submissive wife who knows that her
    eternal salvation depends on fulfilling her motherly and wifely duties”
    Are corporal punishments still widely in use within Mormon households?

  41. You were not in a normal sunday meeting. you probably went on the first sunday of the month, and ended up in a Fast and Testimony meeting. That day, Mormons fast all the day and give money to charity, and the entire service is devoted, as you described, to members spontaneously getting up and delivering their testimony, often in a very emotional way, from the pulpit.

  42. This is a decent appraisal. As for the emotional bit, granted some people do get choked up. Keep in mind, they are just people in the congregation getting up to share their beliefs in public, typically on a yearly basis or so. They often do it during a poignant event in their life, like a birth, a death, or some miracle they witnessed.
    Most Sundays have 3 or so people out of the audience that are asked to speak on some subject. The Bishop (and all the other clergy) are there on a semi-volunteer basis. I teach the adult men once a month, and work with the youth (Scoutmaster and advisor on co-ed activities). Other than building maintenance or full time office work, all is volunteer.

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