Over the weekend, I was treated to some truly hearty laughs when a group of computer programmers posted on GitHub the specifications of a feminist programming language. (It has since been removed and posted to bitbucket.) As a professional software developer and recreational critic of Social Justice Warriors, this article felt tailor-made to my interests. If either of those descriptions applies to you, feel free to check out the link above, it’s worth it.
“I wonder how long it would take an offended “feminist” to overreact to this article?” I thought. Turns out, not so long, as a feminist coder posted her response almost on cue, complete with “trigger warnings”, using the original post as 75% of her article content, the whole nine yards (check it out here).
Naturally, I was reminded about the infamous Adria Richards “Donglegate” incident, which has become somewhat legendary in the tech world, where a female employee of Sendgrid got two men fired because she overheard them making a joke about “dongles” in private at a conference. I couldn’t help but to think of Beavis and Butthead snickering and saying “huh huh, huh huh, she said dongles”. Crude? Maybe. Reason to lose employment? Absolutely not. And yet when “Donglegate” was all said and done, and Adria Richards got fired because sweet justice exists, the feminists and social justice warriors got the last laugh. For weeks, I saw Adria Richards on TV, playing the victim, distorting the story so hard that I was reminded of a famous Simpsons episode I saw on TV.
That was the Adria Richards coverage in a nutshell, and to someone who was not as invested in the story as I was (which is roughly 99% of people) it seems like another chapter in the long continuing narrative of “The evil ‘bro-grammer boys club of STEM fields that hates women and wants to make their life a living hell’”.
This narrative has always pissed me off because I can tell you firsthand that it is not true. In fact, in just about every aspect it has been the opposite. High schools, universities and employers try to fight so hard against the “boys club” stereotype that they end up giving women some rather unfair advantages. How do I know this? I graduated from one of the top science and engineering schools in the country.
College Years
When I was a college freshman in the Computer Science program, I immediately noticed that there were a lot more men than women. No biggie, people do what they like. I didn’t think much of it. It was widely accepted that computer science was one of the tougher majors in our university and students would routinely change majors when they started being overwhelmed by the incredibly demanding course load.
How demanding? During sophomore year my roommate and I pulled so many all-nighters that we inadvertently learned the rules of cricket (the cricket world championships were broadcast from halfway around the world, live, in the middle of the night, and it made for better background TV than infomercials.)
I first realized something was wrong when I got into trouble with the housing department of our school. My crime? Being a nerd hitting on the hottest girl in the dorms next to ours. Apparently, this was labelled as harassing behavior, and the only thing that saved me from being kicked out of on-campus housing was a friend of mine, who was an RA and member of some housing committees, vouching for me and promising everyone there that he would remedy the problem in private. Once again, I didn’t think much of it, we talked it out, and I was actually believing that what I did was wrong. But that’s a story for another time.
Some time later, I saw a student giving a tour to some high school kids, but then I noticed that the high schoolers were all girls, almost all of them wearing matching t-shirts. This was our state’s program to get more girls interested in science and math. Boy interested in science and math? You’re on your own there, buddy. The next year, it was touted as a success—many more girls enrolled in our schools science and math programs than they ever have. Except the numbers were still overwhelmingly male, I think the overall ratio moved by half a percent. I didn’t think much of it then.
As I progressed through my classes, I would see the same faces over and over again. By your senior year you will probably be in at least 1 group project, study group or circle with about 25% of your major by incoming class year. And while there were some brilliant, exceptionally bright and hard-working women, they were outnumbered by women who took the easiest duties in group projects and just coasted. How some of these girls ended up in Junior and Senior Level computer science classes at my school was a miracle. There were numerous instances where you would have to explain basic concepts to them. It blew my mind. And we encouraged them! We either took the harder group project roles because we did not want a bad grade, or we acted as complete supplicating chumps and ended up doing about 80% of these girls homework assignments thinking it would win us favors (it didn’t).
It’s not like the school had a shortage of resources to help them. Quite the opposite. There were several women’s organizations to help ensure the success of these ladies by helping them with tutoring, counseling, etc, for free. But these resources were often ignored in favor of the easy group projects and thirsty men.
There was a computer lab that stayed open all night. There were only 1-2 girls there pulling all-nighters at a time. But lots of dudes. Lots and lots of dudes. Because of the course load, people were dropping out left and right, but I can only recall one instance of a girl I knew dropping out, compared to the dozens of guys I knew.
And then came the job fairs. Because of my school’s prestige and reputation, many prominent companies and organizations recruited from our school. And you can guess what happened. All of the girls that coasted, all of the girls that cheated, “short cut” and gilded their way through college, ALL, without any exception, got job offers at these prestigious companies with those sweet high STEM salaries. I have known several guys that could not find work in their field while grinding hard for up to a year on the same exact prestigious degree. This was demoralizing. But, you know, male privilege.
More Examples.
“But maybe you’re just nitpicking and biased?” OK then, I will give you more examples from outside of my college career.
One of my friend’s girlfriend, on the surface, has a STEM career (computer software to be exact). If you google her name you will find several articles about her, talking about the challenges, hardships, and all the other bla bla bla that women face in computer science. The thing is, I am pretty sure this girl has never written a single line of code. And no, my friend is not dating Adria Richards. Companies are so desperate to employ and tout women, to be seen as that “progressive” company, that many create non-technical positions to fill that role, and then pat themselves on the back for it.
Another example: an ex-girlfriend, a hard science PhD, would routinely complain about the sexism at her job. As a caring and doting boyfriend, of course I took those things seriously, until I realized that the issues were not sexist – they were with her work. When you’re doing research-based academic work that kind of thing tends to happen. You are constantly under scrutiny, your bosses are people that haven’t been outside of academia for any parts of their lives, you get paid shit money, and it’s generally an unfriendly and unwelcoming environment. I realized this when I met more PhDs, male and female, from various fields. All of them had the same story. This girl mistook difficulty for sexism. Getting a PhD is so hard that there is a popular niche comic describing the rigors of professional academia (PhD Comics). Their humor won’t resonate with everyone, but every single PhD I know loves it.
So yes, STEM is indeed easier for women. Everyone wants then to succeed. Everyone needs them to succeed. No matter what the cost.
But you know who I respect the most? The grinders. The girls that work hard, the girls that learn, the girls that try to make a difference in the world on the same playing field as boys. Because, in reality, there is no sexism in science. In fact, there is no “-ism” in science. It’s a meritocracy, with knowledge and achievement as the main focus. And I can respect that.
This is exactly why the “bro” culture will persist. Science can not be held to the same politically correct standards as plain old office work. Because if I’m working with you at 4 am, fueled by pizza, mountain dew and cricket matches on TV, no matter who you are, man or woman, you’re gonna be my bro. Because that’s the only way anything will get done.
Read More: Female Bias In STEM: A Bayesian Explanation
As someone who works in IT, I can chip in with my anecdotal evidence.
My current employer has about 10% female software engineers. Two things I noticed:
– the female engineers almost NEVER stay late to finish a project
– EVERY manager promotion that opened in the last two years was awarded to a female engineer. Every single one.
> – EVERY manager promotion that opened in the last two years was awarded to a female engineer. Every single one.
Gotta move the incompetent higher up. Can’t risk moving a hard-working-programmer-who-actually-loves-to-code higher up and ending up with an incompetent team of programmers that can’t deliver in time.
Nail on the head.
Women might do better at managing than you do. I you “love to code” than that is what you should be doing – not management. Rather than desire “moving up” just ask for a salary raise. That why you get to keep doing what you love but get paid more for it.
“Women might do better at managing than you do.”
Hi, Carly. How’s HP doing these days? Oh, wait, I forgot…
tits or gtfo!
Women managers tend to be emotional and non-serious. It’s about them, not the mission. Not invariably — I’d happily report to my gf’s aunt — but she’s not the norm in my experience. Programming projects don’t need managers who think nerdy men are “gross” and “creepy” and value charm over contributions to the project.
Also, technically incompetent managers are shit at managing technical work, because they don’t understand it. If you don’t get that, you’re miles out of your depth on this stuff.
I’ve worked with women of varying competence in software development. None were stars.
They tend to attribute every problem to “communication problem”, seriously, this is what I encountered at IBM.
common sense should dictate that a person should be manager if they are the best performing of the team and hence should be managers to lead by example and help out in tight spots.
So the top programmer should be promoted to manager…not an incompetent female.
I am about to retire and I can say based on many years of experience that this is absolute BS. The attributes and behaviors of managers is different from individual contributors. Promoting the best individual contributor with no regard to their talents in leadership is stupid, although it is usually what is done. I have been a manager both front line and middle management and I am much happier now back in a contributor/worker role. Part of that happiness is because I am paid the same as the managers with out the hassles. I do work for one of the only other guys in the company with my same technical qualifications and that did make things easier. Prior bosses talked a good game but really did not understand what I was doing. BTW I build statistical models.
What feminists will never demand from women.
Stop being so emotional.
Be serious.
Don´t feeeel, think.
I don’t know, bro. I’m pretty damn serious.
To quote Lee Scuppers, above: “It’s about them, not the mission.”
Right. Good technical managers have to be technical, AND be good managers. Lots of guys are just one or the other. Companies need to be willing to have a respected, well-paid path for senior individual contributors who don’t belong in management.
absolutely correct. management position = less (if any) actual coding.
“Gotta move the incompetent higher up. Can’t risk moving a hard-working-programmer-who-actually-loves-to-code higher up and ending up with an incompetent team of programmers that can’t deliver in time.”
Were you the one that was moved up?
What pisses me off is that those women make twice your salary when they get these “promotions”
Yes, this trend of putting females in PM positions is irritating as hell.. You can’t hack it so you get the to drive a spreadsheet but still tell people what to do? Fuck ’em. My satisfaction is I still make 2x what they do
“putting females in PM positions is irritating as hell”
Same here in South America. It is a global disease.
The ones that put those females as PM’s are lowly beta males trying to score with them in vain.
It’s everywhere in corporate America now. I’m in software/technology sales (don’t hate me – I respect smart geeks more than most people) and even in sales they get breaks that men never get. Management is eager to promote them – me, I fight for every inch. Working from home with a baby screaming in the background? No. Problem. Conflict with a co-worker, just start crying.
The worst part is many of them suck at the work. Selling big technologies and systems to big companies is very hard work that requires both technical and people knowledge, as well as great communication skills, attention to details, tons of work and long hours on the spur of the moment. When I’m working with a women, I can always expect their personal lives to intrude or their kids or whatever,
I had a pre-sales consultant working for a manager who reported to me and he came to me because the women had cancelled going on a sales meeting the next day because her dog was sick and she couldn’t find someone to watch the dog (it was a flying day trip somewhere). I got her on the phone and told her that I didn’t care about her dog and that if she didn’t show up at the airport at 6:30 am to meet me for the flight that she should just quit instead. She made 90k plus bonuses, btw. She sputtered and couldn’t believe spoke to her that way and went to my boss about it. Luckily, my boss was British and he laughed at her and backed me. But really, the best plan is to avoid working with women if at all possible.
I am writing this from the other side of the world and all you have posted is true to me. It happens to me everyday in IT.
There are a few (very few) girls who work hard and get results, but a lot of them do not put enough effort, do not understand, try to get their work to be done by others or let their emotions get mixed with the work that needs to be done.
I can tell you from my past adventures in the corporate world that most “professional” women hardly work.
They just create drama and nitpick about inconsequential nonsense. New female employees who take pride in their appearance, are bullied the most because they make the ugly and old fatties insecure.
They are quick to brand a male colleague who flirts or talks about dating as “sexist” while they giggle about vibrators when they should be completing assignments. The hypocrisy and sense of entitlement is breathtaking.
I don’t blame you for not wanting to work with women.
Scott Adams wrote some nonfiction about that. The Dilbert Principle. The most incompetent people are promoted to the place where they can do the least damage. Middle management.
it was the peter principle and has nothing to do with dilbert or s. adams.
Perhaps you spend some time on Google before you assert factually incorrect statements. The Peter principle is the idea that you are promoted until you are no longer competent to do your job. Scott Adams wrote a book called The Dilbert Principle, where he refined the Peter Principle for the modern day workforce. The only mistake I made was referring to the book as non-fiction, though like all good satire it has many elements of truth.
That’s how human “society” works: emotions and politics over reality. TB expected. Zeitgeist says we should promote women, so we do.
“Humankind cannot bear very much reality.” – T.S Eliot
I was in nuclear engineering for 20 years. I have seen the same behavior in hard engineering as well. I shifted to financial services after retraining, and am now in a 90% white male workplace that has pretty much come out and told us that the diversity goals mean they will be only hiring, retaining, and promoting diversity (i.e. anyone buy us).
Working in IT I can say that many of my teachers back in college straight up told us female students got points simply for having ovaries because they had quotas to meet, without these points they wouldn’t be able to get their quota of female CS graduates.
How sad.
Almost done with an electrical engineering degree, at a VERY well ranked school. You could substitute ‘electrical engineering’ every place Kid Strangelove types ‘computer science’, and it would exactly mirror my experience.
Maybe things have changed now, but back in the late 80s when I finished my maths/statistics degree, I (and the very small hadnful of women in my year) had to compete on equal footing with all the guys constantly, day in and day out. No special or preferential treatment. One thing I noticed though, the guys would help each other out, but not the women.
“How some of these girls ended up in Junior and Senior Level computer science classes at my school was a miracle. ”
No it isn’t considering this
“We either took the harder group project roles because we did not want a bad grade, or we acted as complete supplicating chumps and ended up doing about 80% of these girls homework assignments thinking it would win us favors (it didn’t).”
Either way sound extremely familiar
I am in the same field. We only had one girl in my senior classes of ~20 or so people. She confessed to me that if she didn’t get work done on time or if her grades were too low, crying to the professor would do the trick. (That’s not a metaphor, I mean actual crying.)
In the industry this is of no consequence, though. Getting handed a degree isn’t going to help you get a job unless you’re happy making 25k a year with a four year bachelor’s of science.
I’ve never met a woman developer. Heck, I’ve never met a non-white developer. Conversely, I’ve never met a Quality Assurance person who wasn’t non-white (and 95% of the time they’re also women.)
My best friend (White male of Irish descent) used to do Quality Assurance. America is a very big place. You can find anyone of any occupation if you search long enough.
I’ve worked with a ton of Indian and some Chinese guys. The latter are a problem if they’ve got poor English. Can’t recall an Indian guy who didn’t have adequate English.
Technically, speaking as a vile bigot of the deepest dye, they didn’t average any better or worse than white dudes. You do need the language, though.
Of course, a lot of Americans view those folks as white so whatever.
QA, lots of white guys, some chicks, some of whatever. I’m in New England, maybe it’s regional.
I worked with a Russian guy in computer science. He never got a degree in computer science (he taught himself to code in order to write programs for his doctorate when in the Soviet Union). Since his doctorate was useful for the development of rocket engines in the Soviet Union but after moving to Canada, he couldn’t find a job so he worked as a laborer in a Ford Plant. Eventually he found a job as a low level coder. Needless to say, he soon became the most valued employee in the company, due to his great creativity with code, the ability to write the cleanest code I have ever seen, immense technical knowledge. The manager said he was the best coder he had ever seen, and always speaks highly of Russian developers.
If you want a strong company in a STEM field, hire Russians. It’s kind of funny how many of them used to work on high tech military projects in the USSR…..their technical know how is insane, from what I’ve seen.
Great insight. Someone close to me majored in that field. His girlfriend was in his class, and at the end of 4 years of studies, she didn’t know how to code. He was paired with her in all the team work and did all the hard work while she did documentation.
Women are better at documentation and organizing, I have found.
aka mindless drone work.
“The girls that work hard, the girls that learn, the girls that try to
make a difference in the world on the same playing field as boys.”
I think that we all respect these girls. My dorm is co-ed, and there’s one girl in particular who this article reminds me of. She’s from the Northeast. Anyway, she’s interested in chemistry, but can’t actually do shit in it. The only way she gets by is by suckering her orbiters into helping her out. Since she’s vastly outnumbered by men, her system works… for now.
Truth about women in STEM: They all give head to get ahead.
This true for the military too.
man, if you saw how most of the women in stem fields look, you’d rather beat your meat rather than accept a hummer from one o’those.
As you pointed out, the men are all too happy to cater to women and do all their work for them. As a result, the women never learn anything.
Until men STOP being manginas and white knights? Western civilization will continue to collapse while Asia and China overtakes America in all fields.
I remember touring a few college campuses and at least 20 to 30 percent, and in some places, even 50 percent, of students were foreigners from either China or India or some Muslim country.
The future doesn’t look very bright for native-born Americans.
“As you pointed out, the men are all too happy to cater to women and do all their work for them.”
I find this frustrating myself. Often in Math or Science class I would ask a guy who was understanding the material how they got their answer (the correct answer) They would just write out the correct answers for me. That was not helpful and I was there to learn.
Well perhaps you should have told them “Don’t treat me like a child, treat me like an adult, like an equal”.
Now at the same time, BEING EQUAL also carries responsibility.
Being an adult means that you are responsible for your own actions.
So for example, let’s say you get drunk and have voluntary consensual sex with a man, and then later on you change your mind and claim you were “raped”? THat is NOT taking responsibility for one’s own actions.
The reason many men do not treat women like adults is because most women have not EARNED the privilege of being treated like an adult. If you want equal rights, then you will have to accept equal responsibilities too.
That was filled with many assumptions. As I said, I was there to learn and found a way to learn material. When a man tried to coddled me I ignored him and found another route.
“The reason many men do not treat women like adults is because most women
have not EARNED the privilege of being treated like an adult”
Well, aren’t we bold when posting anonymously.
98% war dead- men
93% workplace dead- men.
90% incarcerated- men.
90% homeless- men
99% alimony payers- men
99% child support payers- men
Number of womens groups protesting the “oppression of the patriarchy” for the undrepresentation of women in these 6 groups..
ZERO.
Yep, you women are the biggest hypocrites on earth. Funny how you aren’t demanding that women should also be forced to register for the draft. Fucking hypocrites.
You sound like a typical man-hating bitch. Go fuck off and die, you worthless cunt.
None of those statistics or your comments apply to the article or my comments. I will dismiss any anonymous comments as ignorant drivel. Good day Sir!
If you’re using your real name… then you are about an idiot.
I disagree.
Someone drop a dox on this fucking slut. You already got her name and pic, what more do you need?
hahahahaha yea let’s ruin her fucking life
Got a dox on her now
Her FB Page
https://www.facebook.com/stephanie.shepard.921
Her college
Arkansas Tech University
Her present location
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Her hometown
Amarillo, Texas
Stephanie, did you wander here from HUS? Welcome to the dark side (and now you know what sort of drivel the HUS comment section was flooded with last year before the purge.
Good god, she is a fatty. It’s no wonder she’s a dyke who is into tech. For some reason, only ugly chicks are into tech careers
https://plus.google.com/106981136954285017148/about
>dat manjaw
Nope, Captaincapitalism.blogspot.com
Stephanie, why don’t you change your life around right now?
You are like 20 – 21 right? You go to HUS because you want something more then you have right now. Well most of that is just bullshit to soothe you.
The total truth is you can ‘win’ at this life by looking as hot as possible and working on feminine charm. That’s it. You can change that body around this week. Go on whole foods High Fat Low Carb and start lifting weights. Then look to get married to the best coolest guy around.
Your weight is the reason you hang on to feminist career ideology but you don’t have to go down this path. You choose this path because you are fat, plain and simple.
The Swedish government is the first to accept HFLC diet.
http://www.dietdoctor.com/swedish-expert-committee-low-carb-diet-effective-weight-loss
Instead of HUS, go to this site:
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/
Way better than Welsh’s drivel because it’s written by a guy that actually know his shit. However it’s all dependent on changing your diet. If you go High Fat Low Carb you will lose the weight.
There I gave you a thousand times more helpful advice than HUS ever could. I know you won’t follow it though but you can’t say you never heard the truth so you have no excuses from this day forth.
Ok, Slightly retract that last statement.
Ok, I slightly retract that last statement.
Well, that escalated quickly.
Like, omg, whats a dox??
Lol, thanks for the wisdom. Actually the google + account was from 5 years ago. I now eat paleo and weight lift. Nerdfitness.com is a good site. I actually read Andrew’s, less frequently seeing as he is busy writing a book, but he has some awesome insights on his site.
Oh ok, but you’re still on the whole careerist sloot path though?
Thin feminine women don’t need careers, that’s only for ugly and/or no common sense chicks. If you are decent looking thin girl in America and you are pursuing a career over trying to lock down a rich cool guy you are fucking idiot.
Guest is a “troll”.
Lol, nah, there is more to life than dedication to a career.
Is auto troll a thing, new name, must conquer quickly?
^ Feminist troll job attempt in progress. Stage 1.
Feminist troll job?
^ Feminist troll job attempt in progress. Stage 2.
^ Feminist troll job attempt in progress. Stage 2.5.
^ Feminist troll job attempt in progress. Stage 3.
^ Feminist troll job complete. Cue outrage and misogyny in STEM articles.
Nice try. 3/10.
Thanks
What’s the point of giving this chick advice? She’s not going to accept it. She’s determined to ride the cock carousel until she hits age 30 and her biological clock starts ticking. And at that point, time will be running out, if she ever wants to get pregnant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQbJGhPSJPQ
The point isn’t if she takes it or not. It’s that she will have no excuse to say I never heard it directly and straight up.
I could care less if she actually does it.
Lol, the most intense theme song of childhood.
She is trolling here in effort to harvest some comments/screen captures for a blog (that she’ll be ashamed of someday. If she’s lucky.)
http://www.timeofcalamity.com/
Wow, the paranoia.
Though I do give you credit for finding the blog first.
What’s the point of sticking the neck out if it can bring only losses and no gains and no good things can result from it? Only fools do that. I wonder if you’re bold if you had to take position that is unpopular in zeitgeist.
With regards to being anonymous, it can hinder a cause. Name off how many feminist you know, then name off how many male activists. Outside blogs, the only men I can think of is Jason Patric, and his cause is very recent.
it did didn’t it. if its any comfort you’re experiencing pretty much the same as any bloke visiting a rad fem site.
Gee, haven’t you guys learned anything? You always give so much attention to the women here. It’s not like they have anything interesting to say, so stop it.
Problem is most of the guys on here are transitioning from blue pill to red pill .
Their instinct to give man-hating women like that attention is human nature.
If you choose to engage them, best to treat them like children..because that is what they are, Treating them like adults is stupid.
They are attention seeking and looking for male leadership and male attention from alphas….best to now glorify them with that online .
Thank you for solidifying my point. SMH
Bitch ain’t worth the time of day for any effort considered work, wouldn’t even talk to this skuzz on the street.
Looks like all the beta males are coming out and giving this ugly fat trolly chick some attention. lol.. happens all the time. Trolls are best left unfed, and ignored.
stephanie! i am a fellow female who was bored and am now gagging at emense stupidity. yay, fun. i just wanted to support you while you are being tactlessly attacked for no reason. you go, girl! (you are super pretty, ignore these MRA peices of shit)
The problem is that feminists want the rights and not the responsibilities. These idiots want to make the same salaries as men, but they also expect men to lavish them with gifts and take care of them after marriage.
“They would just write out the correct answers for me. That was not helpful and I was there to learn.”
And they, too, were there to learn. Not tutor you. Your lament gives “1st World Problems” a real boost.
“I find this frustrating myself. Often in Math or Science class I would
ask a guy who was understanding the material how they got their answer
(the correct answer) They would just write out the correct answers for
me. That was not helpful and I was there to learn.”
It was not your fellow student’s responsibility to teach you the course material. If you were struggling to understand you should’ve approached your professor.
Leave Stephanie alone! She has done NOTHING wrong, only express her opinion. You DO NOT call people fat. EVER. Dont you know this? Leave her alone. As a woman speaking from experience, just dont. And Stephanie, you are a beautiful person, dont let anyone make you feel insecure about yourself.
hehe! it seems like we came from the same place for the same reason. thank you for being sane!
Thank you Em 🙂 Its just that i hate it when i see others being needlessly horrible about people who have done nothing wrong, except try and express their own opinion
Exactly! you and she did nothing wrong. these dicks are just trying to act smart and wave their ignorance at people for no reason.
Dat you John ?
I got my engineering degree in the 70s. I thought I would be traveling the world building major infrastructure projects. Instead I learned that no American engineer is welcome in another country unless there is absolutely no native or even regional engineer that can be trained to do the job.
Then I found that the American company I worked for would only promote people with international experience, that they would not send AMericans on international assignments because they believed Americans were incapable of dealing with other cultures.
The final nail in the coffin was when I was working a major project in the US and was in a project meeting with about 30 to 40 engineers and managers. I looked around and realized that I was the only American in the room. And this was a federal government project.
BTW when I worked on my PhD in a midwestern land grant university Americans made up less than half the students in the program. American college professors are smart enough to try and limit their compitition by only training guys and girls that are likely to return to their own countries rather than compete with them for the limited number of tenure track positions.
There is ONE female Software Engineer that works at my company (she is a smoke show too, believe it or not). I can’t speak for her quality of work, but I know she is the only Senior-level Software Quality Engineer in the department and she works from home a lot, comes in late a lot, and typically takes long lunches. It is a common inside joke amongst colleagues that she is absent and her frequency of work is inconsistent. She is on Facebook and Pinterest a LOT during work hours. Not saying we don’t have lazy male workers with poor work ethic here… but none at that level of seniority I can assure you.
Interesting article. As a female about to graduate with my EE degree I will agree with some portions of this article. With group projects I generally take the more managerial route, this is for two reasons. First one being that I am I great at time management and documentation. The second reason is that my technical ideas are not “heard” until another states them. That being said, I take my tests alone, I study alone, and I do my homework alone. I get my grades on my own merit. I do not agree that women in STEM programs can skate by with padded projects. In my program, at least, tests bear the large majority of the weight it would be difficult for a student to earn a passing grade without an individual knowledge of the material in question. I believe that there are more “grinders” as you call us then what you saw at your university.
The truth is no one’s ideas are heard unless they are put forth confidently, clearly, and persuasively; and anyone benefits from having someone else describe the same idea. Everyone in science or technology has to overcome obstacles to having their ideas accepted. Men have complained to me on numerous occasions about their ideas not being accepted until stated by someone else, five minutes later. In fact it happened just last week. I sympathized but: that’s just the way consensus-building sometimes works. It’s not always as efficient as you’d like it to be.
Dude, you are so in the closet you’re finding christmas presents. I’d love to slip my hard drive into your usb slot 😉 Maybe afterwords we can grab a few cosmos and you can dangle my dongle for awhile? Call me, brah! <3 <3 <3
Looks like the feminist programming language spec has been removed from Bitbucket as well.
It is here now. https://gitorious.org/c-plus-equality
Womyn in Tech are the biggest threat to women who actually work in tech.
When I was in school I can tell you that when I took programming-type computer classes, there would not be a single woman present. If there were women they were my age. Now some of them, like a class about the hardware of a computer or the Microsoft Office class (that I only took because I was told I had to), those classes had plenty of women.
That’s not to say they can’t, because there was one time there was a woman in my C++ class. Heck, the class itself was taught by a woman.
That repository is unavailable, sounds like C-plus-equality rejects backdoor by default.
Sounds like the solution to this is the same as everything else in Feminized America.
Turn off, drop out.
You don’t need to work in corporate America.
or go to college for CS for that matter… If you know your shit and aren’t socially inept most employers could give two shits less about a degree.
they do care if you’re fresh out of college. the old catch-22: you need a job to gain work-experience, you need work-experience to get a job.
You don’t need college is the point. Do projects… share and post them… show real world proof of concept.
I went through a masters in physics program. While going through that program, I interacted with 5 girls in the physics program both at the graduate and undergraduate levels. Of those five girls…
1 – Finished her MS, worked for an aerospace company for 3-4 years, then sold her condo, moved to Hawaii, and does odd jobs there while living in relative paradise. She is essentially no longer an engineer.
1 – Finished her MS worked for an aerospace company for many years, but moved to a government program office with much much much less engineering and much much much more government bureaucracy in her daily work load.
1 – Quit the BS program before graduating.
1 – Finished her BS but tragically died on a camping trip just before beginning graduate work in Arizona a year later.
1 – Finished her BS and moved on to another school for graduate work. I lost track of her.
I work in the aerospace industry. Of my male friends in that same physics program..
2 – Still work at Newport
1 – Works at Northrup Grummann
1 – Went on to finish a PhD in Math at an Ivy League school
1 – Went on to finish a PhD in Physics at a UC.
1 – Went on to finish a PhD in Physics at UofA (IIRC).
1 – Dropped out of the graduate program to work at an engineering firm.
The guys are all still engineers. The girls, by and large, even though they have the ability to learn this stuff, go for these programs as a “checkbox” an “accomplishment”… It’s a merit badge for the women more than a lifestyle.
So true, especially in programming… Hell a lot of guys are the same way when it comes to programming. It takes strong logic skills (empirical truths) which most can’t handle without a break down. Even more of a stretch beyond for your skill to be well rounded (look good / intuitive / useful) you need to be extremely balanced with your creative abstract abilities as well or you become a “cog” programmer… only good at one specific application of the skill.
Telling. Often when women talk of education it’s like the check box you describe and they often have a sense of entitlement about what they deserve based on their level of educational attainment rather than their actual abilities. It’s as though they think there is a “system” that dishes our rewards based on going through certain programs instead of realizing that an education is merely a foundation to put to use to actually accomplish something.
I think you are referring to an arts degree lol.
I’m talking about the mindset of most women I’ve known about knowledge and education.
just a bit of sarcastic fun… business, communications, etc really are “club membership” degrees.
Remember back when we were 6? we build forts from couches and pillows? We would build it for ourselves but the girls ALWAYS want in. You never see girls build their own forts.
It is human nature, women want the resources of men. If all men stopped going to university, women will do the same.
Engineers can’t be created, they must be born. And 95% of them are born male.
Um, they don’t want to do it?
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44887438.jpg
Yep, my experience, as an engineer, is that while there are women that have the intellectual ability to do the course work, very, VERY few of them actually WANT to be engineers. They take engineering to prove to themselves that they are “as good as a man”. Once that is done they loose interest quickly. That is why, ten years out, the 2.8 male engineering grad is out performing the 3.8 female engineering grad in their career.
In college I was curious about getting into hard core computer science, I decided to take an intro to Java class. The first day class, the TA spend the whole period telling us what the class was about, and what you were going to get out of it. But most importantly, he stressed to us about the amount of work we would have to put into it, to get something out of it.
“Just to pass this class,” he said. “You will have to spend at least 20 hours outside of class doing homework, just to pass this course.”
“Is this for real?” I thought. He told me after class the really talented programers, spend 40, 50 hours honing their skills. Needless to say, with regards to the girls, most of the curiosity seekers (60, 70 percent) didn’t show up to the next class. From those that tried to stick it out, half were gone by the end of the semester.
To be minimally successful in STEM fields, especially in computer science, you must grind long hours, and engage your mind in emotionally detached logic. This would make most women insane, and it’s what away drives them away from STEM fields.
The majority of women who do make it tend to be Asperger types who are generally looked down upon by their non-aspie sisters because of their behavior. That Molly White chick BTW, strangelove linked to, is probably one of them. From what I’ve read in her blog, I don’t believe she will have any problems aside from unwanted attention from betas.
I would take the women in STEM debate more seriously if more women were like Molly. But they aren’t. They prefer fields that require more social interaction and less left brain thinking.
What feminist in this debate are really after is the prestige, money, and power found in the STEM fields. It’s not about fostering intellectual curiosity, or a love of learning and problem solving. You see these in Molly’s writing. They want Bill Gates’ money, peacock around on a stage with the newest must-have gadget, like Steve Jobs. They’ve seen “The Social Network” (Wow! it only took Mark Zuckerberg 30 minutes to create Facebook) and hanger’s on Aston Kutcher wanting in on the action.
There is a lucrative market right now in hokey “Coding Boot Camps” that allegedly teach women how to program in a day. I am not joking. Apparently they get sponsored by corporations eager to demonstrate they are trying to “close the gender gap”.
Some self-parody in this hilarious video link. Ok , their camp is 8 weeks, but Forbes had an essay about a one-day coding camp. My point is people are making money on this scam. Those poor gals are spending close to $10K with promises of industry jobs when they could go to the local community college for a year on that amount and have a better learning experience :
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Woman-coding-bootcamp-215337331.html
All they are doing is learning ruby. Initiative and a $30 book will do better than that bs. Ruby to Programming is like an oil lube guy to the certified mechanic.
The lates youtube channel!
Allowing under performing women into the IBM International Development Center in Sydney Australia in the late 80s killed it. Deader than a doornail.
I left the programming profession in 1989 because it was clear to me women were going to destroy it. That’s a long time ago now.
The non-technical people who are rabidly promoting this push to make tech 50/50 equal between genders think that programmers just get handed comfortable assignments like it’s an assembly line or beaurocratic paper-pushing job when in reality it is fraught with uncertainty, risk, and overwork. So of course the system will break down once flooded with women who expect it to be easy-going make-work complete with work/life balance and and a company culture that just loves them for merely being female. These incompetents upon encountering the hardships of the trade will through HR embroil the company in legal dramas rather than just summarily getting canned like most males are subjected to.
These tech equality initiatives are damaging to the talented women who are actually drawn to tech and don’t need anyone’s help.
You can always come to China or Poland.
I live in Germany which is like living on another planet. Many german men complain but it is FAR better than the west…..many german men have a hard time believing that by the way.
I am happy to do BI development work for other people/companies anywhere in the world…..from my home office….and I am happy to sell my BI software to anyone. I don’t have a reseller in Poland yet. It is a bit sad men do not co-operate in business more. The path to freedom will be made much easier when we have a second economy.
http://www.instantbi.com/
If it is not too much troubles, gather any evidences you can find, to tell them exactly how bad it is and likely to get.
But even more. remember to watch out, things legal today may not necessarily be legal tomorrow.
“But even more. remember to watch out, things legal today may not necessarily be legal tomorrow.”
Since I rescinded my consent to be governed no legislation applies to me today or tomorrow.
If you have not rescinded your consent to be governed then it is lawful to presume you wish to be subject to legislation tomorrow no matter what it might say, no matter if you are told about it or not….being subject to legislation is exactly the same as being a slave…
Typical feminists, they want the money and fame but but none the work that comes with it.
interesting article…. the most sickening thing about the coasting women, is they are using their sexuality to get by in life, and eventually pairing up with a husband and having kids… it’s where these girls are heading to… all fine and good…. but they shouldn’t be permitted to use their opportunistic skating through life in expensive and valuable computer science courses and in high demand graduate jobs…. if they want to skate or surf… they can do a secretarial course and bang the boss that way….
it’s fair enough… skaters are not allowed on the 405 at rush hour… they have to go under the freeway bridge and in the skating parks… it is for everyone’s safety….
I’ve never thought about that, but that’s pretty messed up. Now not only are they given an unfair advantage in the professional world, but they still have the female privilege to get married and then leech off their husband. It’s pretty good to be a woman, ain’t it.
“Hey, HEY THERE! Don´t you realize this sign is offensive!?”
“Why? How so?”
“Well, most women´s computers are their boyfriends and husbands, you are singling them out! Are you trying to make us look like ****holes or do you just feel smarter than us?!? Because I should warn you, there can be severe consequences if you do!”
the Asians and Indians are the real girl programmers, only at PhD level.
I thought they aborted their girls…
I once had a girl in my group for a major project. On the last day when the rest of the group was cramming and putting it all together, she emailed me what little work she had done for the project and told me she couldn’t do any more because she had to go play ultimate frisbee that afternoon (I’m not even joking, that’s literally what she said.)
I am a former engineer. My major had 35 men 1 woman. Thankfully it was over 20 years ago in time for some political correctness but not outright feminism. She worked but was no superstar. There were no barriers to entry other than hard work.
good lord, imagine being a beta on a stem course- those bitches would drain you like leeches.
Hit that one over the boundary for six.
= “Hit a home run” for you non-cricketers out there…
Question, one commentator said that a young hot skinny chick should be looking for a rich guy to marry. Okay, I am a hot young chick, I do have a job and my bf is someone you would call a beta, meaning he does not have a high status career, he is really hot though and we are much in love. Does that make me an idiot, for not looking for a rich provider?
Who was your bf before him? Are you faithful? Does he make you wet? How long do you think you will keep him around for?
I did not have a bf before him. Yes I am faithful. Yes he does. Well we do eventually want to get married once we have enough money with our both incomes to start a life together. He is also an aspiring entrepreneur, but is still not making the money. So am I basically an idiot, who should find a rich old man?
Marry the lieutenant. http://tempesttcup.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/marry-the-lieutenant/
And it’s ugly to ask this question in the way you’ve asked it.
why you asking us ? figure out you own damn life
Not at all, just interested. So he’s your first BF and lover, that may explain it. Are you confident in your self-proclaimed hotness? Do you notice how you have an autonomic response of attraction to socially dominant males? It seems you don’t even understand what “Alpha” is so I’ll explain it to you.
Alpha has three characteristics. 1. Social dominance (seems like confidence but it’s more than that as it’s also about how those around him react). 2. Good looking. 3. Wealth. Not all are necessary and in fact the only mandatory aspect of alphaness is social dominance.
Women are attracted to alphas and have far more sex with the 20% or so of men who are alphas – that’s a plain fact. You aren’t going to disagree with that, right? Most other men are Betas – you know, the kind of guys you and your friends rejected as losers, creepy and pathetic for most of your life? Any beta will tell you tales of how he is constantly friend-zoned, and how women he’s attracted to seem love “bad boys” and would rather sleep with a-holes than “nice guys” like them. You must recognize the truth of what I’m saying, right?
Now, some women (beautiful or not) will end up with a Beta for a wide variety of reasons (human behavior is complex). Some women are very repressed sexually and find the overt sexuality of alphas to be very uncomfortable (I think this is you). Typically, Betas find success with women who are ready to “settle down” as they Betas make very good providers and also will not be constantly tempted by the women who throw themselves at alphas non-stop. I don’t think this is you, but sometimes a very attractive women will do this out of insecurity too as she can’t control her jealousy with and alpha and finds a beta much less dramatic to be with.
However, what will invariably happen in your kind of situation where the man is “punching above his weight” is that that the woman will hold all the power in the relationship. The man will be secondary and often fit his entire life into the woman’s frame of life (where to live, furnishings, food, recreation, friends etc). Some people are comfortable with this and more power to them. I’m not here to say what’s right or wrong for anyone.
However, you presenting your life as an exception to these well established sexual dynamics between men and women as some sort of proof that these dynamics don’t exist is absurd and without basis. So, enjoy your life, and live it as you see fit. But don’t tell me gravity doesn’t exist and that attractive women in their prime don’t throw themselves at alphas like confetti – because they do. And they mostly treat Betas like garbage.
He sounds like an alpha, not a beta.
If he’s “hot”, he’s probably more of an alpha. Rich betas are the ones who have to make it clear they’re rich for girls to notice them.
Question, one commentator said that a young hot skinny chick should be looking for a rich guy to marry……
You should ask that commentor. Dont asume that everyone here agrees with everyone else. Personally, Id suggest that there are other things apart from money you should be concerned about. Do you want children for instance, and do you want them raised in an intact home? You only have a limited window of time to make that happen. Do you want a career? Do you want marriage?
Your definition of beta is wrong by the way, no one here automatically assumes a man with a high status career (absent other information) is beta.
I graduated from Cornell and majored in CS and you are right on the dot. And CS was my second concentration. There were a few guys that I was truly amazed at how skillful they were. But not a single girl went even near those levels.
Welcome to the new brave world.
Sometimes women bring silliness to STEM:
“Fortunately, I was able to get an answer. Lisa Randall, a Harvard physicist, kindly e-mailed Fabiola Gianotti on my behalf. Gianotti, the coordinator of the CERN program to find the Higgs boson, provided a compelling rationale for why she had used Comic Sans. When asked, she said, “Because I like it.””
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/hear-all-ye-people-hearken-o-earth
I am actually scared to post this under my own moniker because it could one day be traced to me. It is de facto illegal to notice anything about gender disparities in STEM ability in this country: if a man leaves a trace of having noticed that men are better at STEM than women, then his employer is legally liable to every Adria Richards who comes along. So you’re blackballed sort of as a matter of legal necessity. I don’t want to get Pax Dickinsoned.
Anyway, I’ve been a software dev for ten years. I have worked for several tech companies you’ve all heard of. In that time, I’ve worked on the same team as about sixty or seventy men and four women. (Women tend to be underrepresented in the big league software development shops with respect to their share of CS degrees. The HR department is always asking how to get more women in the door, but the fact is no engineer is going to sign off on hiring someone he doesn’t think can pull weight.) As a technical manager and leader of devs, you have to develop some instinct for what each dev is capable of doing. We all know who our best man is and who we have to hand-hold. That’s just part of leadership: you have to give each of your followers a task that is suitable to that person’s abilities, or else you’re a bad leader.
So, you get good at sizing people up. You just have to. You never talk about it, except possibly to your own boss when you two sit down to do yearly resource allocation. Your reports are like your children. You can never say that you think Johnny is better than Susy, but, well, facts are facts. Sometimes you can’t help noticing things. And yes, sometimes people come out later and surprise you with a really good or really bad performance, but not that often, and the change is usually not permanent. I’ve mentored or worked in partnership with four female developers. Three of the four lady devs I’ve worked with were in the bottom 20th percentile of ability, and the fourth was right around the 50th percentile in ability. Not only the amount of ability, but the ability profile was skewed in all four women I’ve closely worked with. True to stereotype, they were relatively good at UI work and relatively bad at the grittier stuff. I have never met a female programmer who was full stack material. The closest is Audrey Tang, but she’s a he, really. Besides ability there’s also crystallized knowledge. All four women just knew less about the art and science of computer programming than most male developers. They just aren’t as curious. You have to tell them what to do.
I love engineering because it is one of the last true meritocracies in this country. That is why it is coming under attack from feminists. We are the one of the last rebel outposts, holding out deep in the mountains. The flag has a picture of Justice on it, wearing her blindfold, and holding a scale. The scale weighs accomplishment and reward, and the scale is balanced. It must be this way. STEM is not like business or politics. If STEM ever lost its meritocratic spirit, it would die. There is no future in a STEM world that is not meritocratic.
Great post
Fantastic.
Yes, especially to the last paragraph. The barbarians are at the gate however…
Write from a public library or an internet cafe.
Hammerstrike, lately I’ve been thinking that marrying an EEU girl is a good idea not only for the quality of woman that’s available, but also because marrying one confers the right to live and work there. Those girls think they want to move here, and for now, I’d still rather live here, too. But in ten years? Who can say? If Hillary Clinton has four or eight years in office, the USA could – for a productive white man – become a worse place to live than the rising star of the Russian Federation. You have to marry the chica before the value of a US greencard tanks, though.
My wife and I met at college. I spent days helping her majoring a database manager module (Oracle SQL) which landed her a nice job in a bank with a salary 2x mine while I was completing my PhD (in solid physics for electronics, no relation to programming which I learned by myself). As soon as I got a decent wage working in industry, she quit the job to become a happy high school teacher.
She is not intoxicated by all the equalitarism nonsense and has the grace to recognize she doesn’t have the capacities or drive to excel in STEM. I respect her much more for her honesty than if she had twice my salary or a top executive position she would get by affirmative action.
Think these women do not truly possess the drive and motivation and grit to make it in these fields. Programming takes years and years to master. Yes you will get started pretty quick…but to get really good is a never ending process,..
I would say, you are not a good developer before you’ve worked at least 10 years. And not ordinary ten years, ten years of incredible hard work..much of it spent on your own hobby projects and in your free time.
Just having the paper is nothing. Most guys that sign up for computer classes are already better at that point than most women are when they finish the education because they’ve already spent years learning it by themselves.
Its deeply ingrained in mens DNA that if you dont give it your everything, that means, no women, no status, you might as well die because noone will help you. Women ? not so much, it’s ingrained in their DNA that someone is going to pick them up as long as they look pretty.
So I really do not see any incentive for a women to work as hard as its needed to learn STEM fields. Unless of course, she is truly interested.
And thats another thing. Men tend to have a natural interest in STEM fields, whereas women do not…thats why its completely futile to try to get more women into STEM fields..
No one is blocking them..they just dont show up. Why do anything about that ?
I traded answers with a girl who was a CS major in college. She is actually a great girl, smart, beautiful, traditional woman, etc. so there was no problem in the quality of the trade. In fact, I made a mistake in one of the answers I traded to her, and when we got our papers back, I got points taken out, while she got none taken out, despite us having literally the *exact* same answer. I couldn’t do anything without revealing that we copied, and ultimately getting those points wouldn’t have changed my final grade, but that’s still incredibly unfair.
There was also another instance where we were in the same class, didn’t copy off of each other, but we had a female grader. I used to do my assignments perfectly but still get them back with “-1” and no explanation for what the point was taken off for. I guess it was for having a penis.
There have been several studies recently published that show grading bias by female teachers at all levels. The bias give girls extra points above wht they deserve and penalizes the male students several points. Male teachers tended to give female students extra points but at least did not penalize the boys. This bias has been around for a long time as I saw it in the 60s. However, the difference now is that men have almost completely been driven from teaching in the k-12 levels.
They wonder why males are discouraged and see no point in competing in academics with girls. Playing a rigged game can cause that.
as a CS graduate myself, i can vouch for this article. in college the only females that actually gave a shit were the butt-ugly dorks, the cuter ones could not write a decent chunk of code to save their effing lives. but they were known for flirting with the profs, who – as you can imagine – were starved for female attention and as such would inflate their grades above those of the hard-workers. that was our major’s ‘dirty secret’. but hey, a bit of come-uppance: none – and i do mean ZERO – of the chicks i graduated with are currently programmers. having gotten their degree they migrated towards ‘softer’ professions like marketing and hr. if that doesn’t speak for the idea of gender specialisation, i dunno what does..
so, boys and bitches, that’s what happens with ‘affirmative action’-type of thinking, you are forced to hire and work with people that are sub-par, just because of the colour of the skin, the fact that their reproductive organs are on the inside, ethnicity, whatever else. i would love to live in a meritocracy where people are valued by their productivity and not their gender/race/looks, but that would mean that the establishment would have to – gasp! – admit that not all people are special and smart and deserving, and that for any amount of winners there’s ten-fold more losers living amongst us. and i don’t see it happening in my lifetime, not in the western world at least. thank fuck the asian countries still practice discrimination – see you there!
Before i make my point i’d like to say that I have been a silent observer on this blog for quite some time ( despite it being off limits to women). For a person from a non-western country, I honestly like how it provides a male perspective on the western world. Despite being a woman, i admit on how some of the issues you point out here are very anti-male. I actually like this blog a lot and it took me a lot of guts to write this post.
I’m not a feminist of any sort. I’m in an exchange program in mechanical engineering. And in my opinion, i honestly do not think women really have an advantage in STEM over men. I think we struggle as much as the guys do and we pull just as many night outs. I think STEM fields ( atleast engineering) are quite fair when it comes to applicants and don’t really discriminate based on gender. Atleast in Europe they are. I have applied for a lot of internships and jobs and i haven’t got selected for any. But my fellow male classmates did and they got it because of their creativity and intelligence. Now if there really was female privilege here, i’d have got a job even if i didn’t put in quite the effort.
I joined STEM because i wanted to contribute something to the world in the field of science and be of some use. I also wanted to get a decent job and support my family back home. In my family, women were typically house wives and i’m the first one to get education of this kind and i really want to pay them back for supporting me so much when they could have just got me married at a young age like everyone else. Not every woman gets this chance there you see. I may not be as intelligent as some of the men are but i’m definitely hard working.
There are some honest women out there who go to college for a cause and not for the privilege and male bashing. In fact i see my classmates as hard working intelligent people and not as men and women. I just think all the bashing against women in STEM fields isn’t quite fair. Women who join in STEM fields don’t even do so with the intent of proving that women are better than men. Only uneducated, stupid and bitter women believe in femnism and other delusional non-sense. Such women won’t even last a single day in engineering. If they do i will be very surprised
There is a huge bias towards and in favor of female engineers in the US. If you deny this fact you need to go in for drug counseling.
One of my first engineering jobs I worked with a female engineer that was in the Edison Engineering program. This was where GE hired the best a brightest, rotated them through assigmnments to broaden their experience, and rapidly promoted them. If you were selected for this program you were a future superstar. I learned working with her that she was dumber than a box of rocks. She was in the program because GE had been successfully sued for not promoting enough women.
A second case is more recent. A ME graduate (male) had not been able to even get an interview after a full year of sending out resumes. He changed nothing but his first name to a female name, and got hundreds of responses. Some of the employers even offered him jobs without an interview, sight unseen. Of course when they found out he was male all job and interview offers were pulled.
If that’s true it must be an American phenomenon. I’m German and I can’t believe that’s true here, not to that degree.
Nice and level-headed comment, thank you for your perspective.
I’ve worked with (and dated) chicks that were very good at STEM fields. There aren’t nearly as many of them, but I’ve certainly met chicks that can do that stuff. Most of those chicks actually have their head screwed on straight, unlike most chicks. They don’t worry about stupid shit and they get very frustrated when surrounded with men stupider than them. Almost all of the girls that I know who’ve done work in STEM fields aren’t feminists. I’ve taken very advanced level graduate classes in STEM fields and almost all of the girls aren’t feminists.
Ditto here. I graduated Mechanical Engineering in a Canadian University circa 1987. This is exactly how it was then. It was the same in my previous short career in aviation. Was the same in my longer career in the AIr Force.
*applauds*
The feminist programming language garbage was amusingly put down here too http://alternative-right.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/the-hilarity-of-postmodernism-feminist.html
I recall what a famous female mathematician in my home country answered to a question regarding sexism in the field: “Sexism? Discrimination? I have never seen any of that. If you want to do something you just do it and that is it.”
FYI: that Bitbucket link you referenced with the satirical programming language is now dead: https://bitbucket.org/FeministSoftwareFoundation/c-plus-equality
Womean can do STEM, especially programming, just fine. The problem with women in programming (and all of STEM are:
1. Women do not WANT to do STEM, at least not the unglamourous, low status or unseen grunt work.
2. The few women who do go into the field coast because the decisions of the larger female population have cast them as unicorns in a field of thirsty dudes. (And this works before govt mandates kick in)
3. The elites in society Zuckerberg, et all would rather change USA immigration laws so that they can import a ton of thirsty dudes from Asia before they would give the wages, hours, and job security that the jobs need to have to attract women.
Women invented COBOL. Women did pretty much all computing 1940-1970, the field was seen as women’s work. Women did the programming on most important computing projects in the period: the moon launches for example.
Steve Jobs early apple computers ran on women invented OS.
Just adding that the complete flight of women from the field that they dominated, post feminist movement, shows pretty conclusively that women just are not interested in the work.
My sister is retired from IT. She was a Cobal Cowboy/girl in her day. And yes she got her CS degree in about 1970. Back then it was called data processing and was female dominated. It was considered almost as a secretarial function. Things changed as the complexity and central necessity of the IT function increased
” Back then it was called data processing and was female dominated. ”
Putting punched cards into card readers was female dominated. I think you will find that the writing of code was a very male dominated activity where the code was important. You might want to read up things like the mythical man month etc and notice how many of the actual programmers and people doing complex work were male.
I have never met a female who was above average at programming. Not even one. And I have been in IT for 32 years.
“Women invented COBOL. Women did pretty much all computing 1940-1970, the field was seen as women’s work. Women did the programming on most important computing projects in the period: the moon launches for example.”
Funniest comment I have seen in a while.
“This girl mistook difficulty for sexism”
Best line of the article. It categorically cuts to the heart of many accusations of institutional sexism, and is a easily retooled as an effective rhetorical counter to those claims.
To feminists, difficulty is sexism. That’s a feature, not a bug…
1) Studying engineering in the west is the worst decision any self respecting straight man can make.
2) Most engineers are chubby chasers and actually
get off on being mistreated by women.
3) As a friend who works for GE once told me “Unless
she has killed someone or has sold secrets to the Chinese, if she has a vagina
will promote.”
4) Take that energy you put into engineering and
get a PhD in economics and make 4 times the money in financial engineering.
After 20 years in engineering that is exactly what I did.
“Once again, I didn’t think much of it, we talked it out, and I was actually believing that what I did was wrong. But that’s a story for another time.” This resonated with me. A girl accused me of trying to rape her in high school when she invited me to the park alone with her and I began making moves on her and touching her back and ass. She put up a little verbal resistance but was overall complacent until it was time to go back. I didn’t get anywhere. I had no idea she was upset until the next day a bunch of guys approached me and started questioning me about it, she had said that I tried to rape her. I called her and apologized like a beta faggot. True red pill moment looking back on it.
Notice the gender of the doctor that let the little girl die.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541342/Mother-describes-heartbreaking-moment-saw-daughter-die-screaming-agony-doctors-did-nothing.html
I tried to post this comment but seems I am somehow blocked over there.
“How is that socialised welfare working out for you? Notice the doctors were women. Women doctors are terrible doctors compared to male doctors because they actually do not care about their patients for the most part. “
peter, there is a trend towards female doctors outnumbering male ones. But the little girls life was lost it seems on account of an appalling error of judgement. If women doctor’s are worse than men though I think you’ll need more than a single case – I’m sure the issue could be investigated statistically if there is data available. Failing that I’m not sure this case tells us very much beyond the fact a little girl lost her life unnecessarily. I think her death shouldn’t be politicised unless it is clearly a political issue, and if is that has to do with NHS training etc
“But the little girls life was lost it seems on account of an appalling error of judgement”……..by a female doctor who was probably too busy thinking about what she was going to do in her time off because, you know, women doctors are entitled to a “work/life balance” and women doctors work part time in the UK to such an extent you actually need to have TWICE as many female doctors as male doctors to cover the same number of patients.
Female doctors in the UK quit the profession at a rate of 60% in the first 10 years of practice never to return. Then the NHS has been poaching doctors from poor countries like India and Pakistan and that means more women and children die in those countries due to lack of proper medical attention.
It is no exaggeration to say that foisting women doctors on to people not only kills more people in that country but also kills more people in the country that other doctors are then poached from.
Women doctors kill people. Lots of people. But no one cares as long at the “entitlement princesses” get to be doctors….for a few years anyway…before they…you know….quit!
the retention rate for female doctors and the cost of part time work (mainly training costs I would assume) are a legitimate focus but I think one should be careful about drawing conclusions about competence from such concerns unless you have clear statistical evidence of this. The case you mentioned was a preventable tragedy relating to a female doctors error of judgement but I don’t see how individual cases can demonstrate anything. Personally, I don’t think the current trend is a healthy one, but I’ve never personally experienced any problems with either female doctors and nurses & I have no reason to think they aren’t dedicated (at least on a part time basis)
“but I think one should be careful about drawing conclusions about competence from such concerns unless you have clear statistical evidence of this. ”
I do not need “clear statistical evidence” as to the incompetence of female doctors. I have something much better. Direct experience. Like the time an incompetent female doctor took FIVE TRIES to take spinal fluid from my spine to test for meningitis and left me with a hole in my spinal column from which spinal fluid leaked and travelled up to my brain and inflamed it causing pain you could not believe.
Or like the time I went to my family doctor and other FEMALE doctors over and over again for a slow degenerative condition that turned out to be lack of acid in my stomach with which to digest my food.
Apparently only having 10% of the proper acid level in my stomach was a diagnosis too hard to find for EXCLUSIVELY FEMALE DOCTORS.
Female doctors are TOTALLY USELESS and I would NEVER let a female doctor touch me or advise me ever again. And I would counsel ALL MEN to DENY the services of female doctors and INSIST on seeing a male doctor.
“If women doctor’s are worse than men though I think you’ll need more than a single case”
Even in my own limited personal experience women doctors are terrible. Women nurses are terrible too.
It is not like the women are going to let out any surveys showing how bad women doctors are any more than they are going to let out any surveys how bad women in IT are.
I have worked in IT 32 years. In all that time I have only seen one woman work overnight. She worked 24 hours straight…then took three days off sick.
All my life I have regularly worked “36 hour days”. The first time I did this I was 18 and we were doing systems testing for our project. I volunteered for the systems testing…we would start 5pm Fridays and work through to about midday month…we would sleep in cots.
All across my 32 years in IT I have seen women short time sheets and refuse to do the work they were asked to do as a routine. The ONLY country I have ever worked in where this was not “normal” was Hong Kong. Every other country I have ever worked in where women worked (ie not saudi arabia) it was standard for women to short their timesheets thereby stealing.
Women in the workplace have destroyed the workplace. It is one reason why I like to work for myself and write my own software. One of the reasons my software is so reliable is because no woman every touched it.
Women, and a lot of men, simply can not admit the truth no matter that it is staring them in the face. The west is going to collapse in large part because women are in the workplace and have destroyed the willingness of men to work hard by being so.
work / life balance and success don’t really go hand in hand, and I agree with the argument that demanding this in any profession while seeking to get ahead in that profession may simply be a manipulation, particularly insofar as others will have to pick up the slack. In terms of women in the workplace having destroyed the workplace, perhaps they have – they have certainly changed it – but I doubt many people today could imagine a workplace where women weren’t quite fully represented and to bemoan their presence is pretty pointless. i.e. the former argument may hold weight, because you appear to be pointing out an unfairness in the system many – both men and women – may recognize as an unfairness, but the latter argument implies a desire to turn back the clock & that just isn’t persuasive.
“How is.. bla bla .. working out for you” is only heard in one place in the world. Couldn’t resist a comment here. The Daily Hate is the ultimate troll news outlet. I’m pretty sure your polemic comment wasn’t blocked as it would have been grist to the advertising mill. I realize the irony. By the way, the healthcare worked out great for me.
this is not a refutation or an endorsement. sequence of events and full clinical picture are absent. without them, it is impossible to know if the decisions made at each step of care by each medical provider were made well. while it may have been inexperience, which would lend credence to female doctor fault, it may have also been just bad luck.
all that is certain is that the child was referred to the hospital from a general practitioner (reads: family med doc) after several days of worsening prior fulminant sepsis (reads: bacterial infx of the blood, probably originating from the gut or throat) that left her with substantial fluid in the lungs (reads: secondary pneumonia; bad). as such, the prognosis would be worrisome to any doctor with extended experience, as vitals can rapidly deteriorate with little prior warning. small children are aliens; their medicine doesn’t follow adult medicine. the mother should have sought escalation of care much, much sooner. sedation and intubation with broad spectrum antibiotics was administered, which would be all that could be done, no matter who was supervising care. gram stain and culture would not have yet indicated what antibiotics should have been given.
all are at fault, but only for their respective decisions along the way. a very experienced practitioner would have seen the signs and acted accordingly, but it may not have changed the outcome so late into the disease process. i don’t like saying this, but the child may have already been dead. the mother needs to forgive herself for not seeking care sooner, and for not staying at her child’s side. until then, the child will not come back to life no matter how much money the lawyers or the dailymail extract from this misfortune. there are no honorable actors here.
“while it may have been inexperience, which would lend credence to female doctor fault, it may have also been just bad luck.”
You mean like how a woman doctor who tried to take spinal fluid from my spine and was too weak to do so made FIVE ATTEMPTS while I was in excruciating pain with the symptoms of meningitis and finally left me with a hole in my spinal column that caused more extreme pain until it was patched by a COMPETENT MALE DOCTOR might have been just bad luck?
You mean like how when I was returned to my room and had not had any fluids for more than 8 hours and no food for more than 24 hours and I was strapped to my bed so I would not move accidentally dislodging the blood patch placed over the hole in my spinal column and I asked for a little water and a little food to sustain me to the next morning and was told “feeding you is not my problem” by the NURSE I WAS PAYING THE SALARY OF VIA MY MEDICAL INSURANCE was just “bad luck”?
Women in medicine are a TOTAL DISASTER now…and women as doctors have ALWAYS been a disaster. Women could not even invent the forceps…they were invented by a man. Go look it up.
It is not “bad luck” if you give a 2 year old a fork and put it next to a power outlet and it electrocutes itself.
It is not “bad luck” if you give a 2 year old a box of matches and a pint of petrol and it burns itself to death.
It is not “bad luck” if you make women doctors and their patients die due to lack of close observation either.
did i disagree with that? i’ll be the first to endorse that! i’ve seen that with my own eyes. but i’m not going to pad this girl’s death to fit a narrative where it simply doesn’t fill the shoes.
reduced to absurdity, it’d be like blaming a woman part-time ER doc for the death a gangrenous sepsis patient -after- she cut off their gangrenous leg -after- an ambulance found that same patient freezing under a bridge. the possible lack of skill from a life time of sub-par commitment doesn’t matter; the last-ditch effort amputation doesn’t matter; the ‘her’ part doesn’t matter; the patient was already banging at death’s door. the time to meaningfully affect the outcome was not at the end but several days prior, at least! heroic last-minute medicine and a hollywood ending? really? that kid wasn’t your spinal tap; there is no magical legendary ‘standard of care’ for secondary pneumonia in toddlers with status 3+ day worsening fulminant sepsis admitted the night before. dump antibiotics in her, but her lungs still can’t breathe, her systems are still depleted, and she’s still dead. i’m sorry.
the specific case cited was a poor citation. period. citation of other stronger cases doesn’t change this as a poor citation. until other evidence comes to light, at least. just about the only thing that could be proved is parent fault: the mother ignored the child’s deteriorating health until it was far too serious. and the mother knows it. in her grief, she’ll sue the hospital to the ground. profound misfortune to be born to such a parent. you could even call it ‘bad luck’.
I did two videos on women in the workplace over my 30+ years of experience. Young lads might like to listen.
http://kickass.to/d66a-women-in-the-workplace-part-1-t8121560.html
http://kickass.to/d66b-women-in-the-workplace-part-1-t8121566.html
More up-to-date anecdotal evidence. My group hired a cute Chinese girl to solve a difficult computer-related problem. She is working towards a computer-related MS at a nearby state university. I come up to her at the big copier/printer/scanner thing today.
Her: What’s going on? How do I scan this?
I press the power button.
She laughs.
Her: So where does it go? How do I get it on my computer?
I tap her email address on the touchscreen.
She laughs again and stares at the screen for a minute.
I press the big green start button.
Her: You’re a genius!
I had never scanned on that machine before, and I’m no techno wiz. Pretty typical.
Question — Can Roosh set up an RSS feed for the comment section? It’d be very helpful for those of us who like to read when offline! Thanks!
-Arbo
http://disqus.com/roosh_v/latest.rss
disqus is set up for trans-website comments. that’s their innovation, so you can access an individual account’s rss feed. i don’t know if they have a nice way to access all rss feeds to an article. my google-fu needs work.
That shit was legendary! I was laughing for the good part of the day.
hysterical.
I’m pretty sure she’s trolling.
At one of my first jobs, they had hired an Indian female as a JCL/COBOL programmer a few months earlier. She was a horrible coder and I ended up rewriting most of everything she coded. What floored me was how she was able to get away with her incompetence. She claimed to have a Masters from some dirt eater university in India but she was terrible at her job. She also lacked basic logic skills as to how to even logically program.
She ended up quitting but I ran into her at a consulting firm where she was a project manager. She was terrible at her job there as well but was kept on to maintain the female quota so they could win govt contracts.
This website will probably be shut down when hilary cunton gets “elected” in 2016 due to stating facts, i mean “hate and racist” speech.
Um, when I worked in a neuroscience lab, I regularly faced sexism. Not every man is sexist in the field of STEM, but it is an issue on occasion. This post was not bad because it acknowledges that there are women who work hard in STEM… (I have read some stupid posts that state that women are incapable of being good at math and science).
There are a bunch of studies in which identical resumes, some with male names and some with female names, were sent to professors or scientists, and BOTH male and female professors and scientists rated the males’s resumes as the better ones, even though they were actually the same. I am currently in a program made for women in science, and I believe that it doesn’t exist because women are dumb and need a special program. It’s to encourage women to major in a STEM field and a safe space for us because we were discouraged to so when we were young.
I believe you when you say that it can be easier for women to get hired in certain circumstances because people will get in trouble if they NEVER hire any women or people of color. People are pretty much forced to have diversity in the workplace. It’s not a bad thing, but if you’ve got a man with a stellar application and a woman with an average one, it would be unfair if the man didn’t get the job. This kinda stuff happens in society. They’ll be like, “Oh, we don’t have enough women working here, and we’ll get accused of being bigots if we don’t hire enough.” There are also other things that women have going against them when applying for jobs such as, “She might get pregnant.”
So yeah, it may be easier for women in some circumstances, but some have faced sexism, like me. A neuroscientist with a doctorate casually asked me what else I’m interested in besides science while I was in the middle of completing a nissl stain. I said that I enjoyed painting and baking. He replied that I should quit my internship, stick to baking, and find a husband. I’m sure that I am not the only woman who has run into blatant sexism like this. I didn’t tell anyone about this because I was going to go to college away from the lab in a few months and would have to quit my internship anyway.
In short, sexism does exist in STEM, but sometimes, women get advantages as well. I’m aggravated when people keep saying that there is NO sexism, and I get aggravated when women refuse to participate in STEM because “every man is evil and they’ll never get hired”. What women in STEM have to do is ignore the stupid and ignorant comments and try their hardest… And hopefully not become one of those coasting, lazy female students that you described in your article. I somewhat appreciate this article (100 times more than some of the other gems I find on here) because it does point out that women DO get some advantage, but there’s both good and bad in everything, I suppose.
In order for the woman to get an advantage she needs to sell her sexuality. Just having a female name while your exam is evaluated by someone who doesn’t even know your face can easily be a disadvantage: They guy evaluating you could know how many girls he gave an advantage because they smiled at him so nicely and might now want to make up for it.
I had to do national service for a year under the threat of prison while the girls didn’t, and nobody called that sexism. Nobody even called it unfair. Yet you say someone suggesting you should stick to baking is sexism and probably mean that it is a problem somehow.
I don’t think anyone says there is no sexism. But I’m pretty sure the amount of sexism women get is negligible compared to the amount of sexism men get – under a *sensible* definition of the word.
BTW: PhD Comics links back to: http://blog.mollywhite.net/why-im-not-laughing-at-c-plus-equality/
As an actual hardworking female in engineering, I can say that we ARE outnumbered by women who cruise through the major with minimal work. However, I can also say that those girls’ lack of actual work shows in their grades, and that those of us who actually work have some of the highest grades in the class without any ‘special treatment.’ I would love to get free tutoring and other services just for being a girl, but we don’t have those here.
Thanks for being clear that you weren’t generalizing to say that all women are slackers in that way. I wish there wasn’t a reason to write this article, but I’m sad to say it’s true in many cases.
Don’t worry, these coasters will get chewed up in the job market because it doesn’t matter how pretty you are if nothing gets done. Unless you’re the receptionist
I had no idea there was a blog for chauvinist idiots. Well, now I know where to avoid you guys.
Please feel free to come and comment as often as you want to avoid us.
I grew up in india and 1/3 of the seats in government medical colleges are reserved for women. Companies hire more women and more and more women are being encouraged (read: standards being lowered) toward math and physics.
Technically you shouldn’t have to spend all nighters and days of overtime on a project. It sounds to me like the company promoted the person with better time management skills. You sound like a bitter, unhappy workaholic–and all of your anger and entitlement is sadly being directed towards an entire gender. Manage your time better, have a healthy working relationships with ALL of your colleagues, and put in effort to make leadership more aware of your accomplishments. Don’t ever blame your lack of success in a corporate environment on me–EVER AGAIN!
tl:dr any of the previous comments.
<– Senior in Biochemistry, similar experience. Luckily, as a senior all the lazy ones are gone male or female.
I always think about what Dorothy Hodgkin said when she was asked “whether she felt handicapped in her career by being a woman” to which she responded that “As a matter of fact, men were always particularly nice and helpful to me BECAUSE I was a woman.” A bit of a different time but I’m not totally sold on all this STEM stuff being this necessary for women. In the end, it’s still a very small minority that’s any good at it and a large crop of men. Seems like we’re giving attention to the wrong people. 😀 Not saying I haven’t accepted women’s scholarship stuff just because I could and competing with only other women for scholarships has been like shooting fish in a bucket…But yeah, even other than that? As an attractive female I’ve gotten even more opportunities because guys just wanted to help me out which is nice because I suck at networking and they’re just like “hey, wanna see my lab?” So, that’s pretty sweet. Unlike dudes that show up to seminars trying to see who they can impress … admittedly I just have to show up.
> Because if I’m working with you at 4 am, fueled by pizza, mountain dew
Worked with my bro till 4am on a scientific paper until our visual cortex started giving us hallucinations, like, the wall would start to wave.
So I can relate.
You’re a little coward. If you tried to run your misogynist garbage in someone face–which you’d never do, dickless, weak little nerdie–you’d have your face broken and crawl away crying like a little b*** that you are. Hateful, petty little twit. You never been around actual “real male”, Ameri-pansy. I’m a woman and SE myself–I’d break your coward face in a few places, if you run your filthy dump in *real life* and tried to spew your hate in front of actual person. You’d NEVER run it into anyone’s face, I assure ya. Just look at this wussy dork typing from beind the screens.
Have you heard that air conditioning is sexist now?