How To Avoid The Point Of No Return

I want to discuss a phenomenon that occurs commonly in game and will be recognisable to guys who meet and date women regularly. In general when dealing with a new girl, textbook advice applies—you must make the interaction sexual early, and escalate rapidly in order to seal the deal, lest you lose her to one of her many orbiters in the Tinderdrome.

The trouble, though, is in knowing how far to push it on the first date. If you go to far and get the girl too turned on without sleeping with her then the chances are you will never see her again.

This is a paradox because in doing precisely the things you need to do to have sex with most girls—being tactile, and escalating from hand-holding and light touching to making out and more sexualised physical expression—you also run the risk of getting her too near the boil and then losing her.

It’s counterintuitive because, as men, the more a girl turns us on, the more likely we are to want to sleep with her. Surely it should be the same the other way around? Apparently not.

The Two Types Of Dates


There are basically two types of dates – the “couple of quick drinks as a precursor to a one-night stand” date; and the “date one” date, where there may be another one, two, or three meetings before sex finally occurs, if it does at all. Standard advice is to try to steer your interaction towards the former—so even if the girl didn’t leave the house expecting to get down and dirty, she is swept away by passion in the moment and succumbs anyway.

The problems with this is that it works very, very well until it doesn’t. The fact is that however good looking you are, however dominant your male presence, however skilled at conversation, humor and escalation, even in 2015 there are still many girls who simply won’t put out on the first night.

And that is not taking into account peripheral issues like periods, boyfriends, work issues and so on. And if you get one of these girls all hotted up on a date then the chances are after she’s had time to cool down and assess the situation her so-called “anti-slut defence” will kick in and she will refuse to see you again.

Speaking as a member of the gender that will always rush back to the scene of the crime if sex is on offer, this is hard to understand. But if you have made your sexual desire so apparent to a woman without her having taken the bait, then she knows that there really is no way forward for you two other than for her to sleep with you.

So by agreeing to meet with you again she is basically tacitly stating that she’ll have sex. And remember, girls like to feel like “it just happened.” If there’s one thing they hate it’s being made to feel slutty.

The Point Of No Return


This happened a few years ago. I met a girl outside a cafe who was eyeballing me as I walked down the street. I took her number and we went out a few days later. We went to a bar where, after one drink, she was all over me—literally straddling me as we made out (not a good look, but hey, I was experimenting with PDA at that time).

However, try as I might to pull her back to my place, she wouldn’t go for it. Fair enough. I split—and even as I did, I knew I would never see her again. Sure enough, when I pinged her a few days later, there was no response.

Why should this be the case? Anyone seeing us together would have assumed—rightly—that she was really into me. Certainly, there can be no doubt that she was physically attracted and turned on. The mistake I made, though, was taking her to the “point of no return” too early, on a first date when she never intended to have sex. Going home, she probably felt slutty, that I was “only after one thing.”

Many game-savvy guys won’t be surprised at this, and will probably claim that they always keep it cool and make the girl wait for the make-out until they’re back at their place. Fine, but the fact remains that I’ve used the technique of hard escalation described above many times, and more often than not it’s got me laid. What you can’t legislate for is the small number of times where you lose the girl.

How To Avoid Over-Escalation


The trick, then, is to know which girls you should escalate hard with and which girls you should hold back on. The Troy Francis surefire way of determining this? I’m sorry guys, but there isn’t one. If there was ever a girl with DTF written all over her then it was the one I described above, and over-escalation cost me the lay. Other girls who have looked a lot more innocent have succumbed eagerly.

My advice is this. When meeting a girl on a date for the first time you must sexualise the interaction, you must push the envelope ,and at a minimum I would recommend you always ask her to come back to your place to “watch a movie,” see your prize tomatoes, or whatever. You might as well take the shot, and in most cases you won’t lose points. If anything, she’ll credit you for trying.

If, though, you get any sense that this girl is not up for accompanying you home for a little nocturnal fun tonight, then you must pull back and cool it. By all means make out with her a little at the end of the date, but don’t overdo it. Don’t try to be a pick-up hero.

Accept that many girls are simply not cool with one-night stands and chill. If you don’t push it too hard then the chances are she’ll agree to meet you again and you can game her once more, hopefully with more favourable results this time.

Read More: What To Do on a Date to Maximize Your Chances Of Closing

120 thoughts on “How To Avoid The Point Of No Return”

  1. I guess the logic is that if she comes on a second date, it will be a one night stand…. ie. she’ll have sex with you on the 2nd or 3rd date, but there’s no future in it….. so she backs off, precisely because she’s into you but the connection made was purely physical……
    I guess the trick is to make the connection in public more fun and light and less physical and more emotional, add value to yourself and make yourself someone in her ideal future…. ie. don’t push it until you have her isolated.

    1. An important clue is her body language, and you must take the lead to be able to get that feedback. Pull the classic “kino escalation” techniques, etc. You will know right away if she’s keen on not. If she is, just keep escalating.
      I usually invite girls back to my place to see the view from my balcony, which is not great at all, but it does the job….

  2. Good perspective on this article. In my younger, dumber days, I would try to slow down things if they heated up too fast. I learned hard that once a woman is at the point where she is offering herself up there for you, and turn her down, she can’t handle the rejection and her ego will not allow her to continue. Being harder to get works only so long, especially in the age where she has 47 orbiters wanting to give her all the attention they can.

    1. I should qualify that by saying it was towards the end of the college era, and had been having fun for awhile. It was the point when I was thinking long term, maybe a marriageable woman might enter the picture. That was another sign something was wrong with the culture, when you are subconsciously trying to suggest to ‘quality’ women not to fuck you after the first dinner. Chumps credit this to themselves. It’s another red pill truth though when you realize it’s not always you and your fastball, it’s them with no control.
      More often than not I would find out they already had a boyfriend. And that’s when I learned if you have to be one or the other, never be the boyfriend, haha.

    2. You really have to wonder sometimes at all the girls who were heated up and we just didnt finish and they were so disappointed.

    3. If a woman is in my house and she refuses to have sex with me I throw them out I just simply dont give a fuck about there stupid bullshit games I have hundreds of other pussys to thrash.

  3. These women today… I don’t want the diseases they picked up from third-world foreigners, I don’t want to hear their problems, I’m not going to be their therapist or fix them. They need to pick up their game and have something to offer. If all I want is sex I can hire a professional. And their sick brand of liberalism and worldview… yuck. They are being indoctrinated into monsters.

    1. professionals are certainly better, but amateurs have a much lower chance of being a plainclothes vice cop.

      1. The common philosophy is to place the burden and responsibility of maintaining a relationship on men instead of on women, who are supposed to be the center of family, emotional and domestic resolution in domestic matters.
        The PUA stuff does not interest me in the least. Neither does “game” or other methods of manipulating woman’s “attraction” or “desire”.
        Proverbs 31:3 Do not spend your strength on women, your vigor on those who ruin kings.
        Define what you mean by trying and why I should be the one doing the trying. Let’s use another term for it: high maintenance women. If you think they’re worth it, you are very, very young and will find yourself very, very broke in a divorce court situation.

        1. The assumption now is that women don’t need to bring anything to a relationship. All they have to do is show up and be entertained. Men are required to do all the work. Women aren’t required to have a job. Women can be passive in bed and just lay there. Women don’t have to stay fit because fat acceptance. Women aren’t required to have stable personalities because they are emotional creatures. The list goes on… If women didn’t have a vagina would men talk to them? Fair question.

        2. I prefer a woman doesn’t have particular monetary/career ambitions. I’m a big boy, I can provide on my own.
          The last thing I need is a wifey who thinks it is socially acceptable to turn into some lumberjack type and let herself go, stop wearing make-up, cut her hair short and wear black sneakers, mom jeans and plaid flannel shirts, the only clue to her femininity being small hoop earrings. It’s no surprise their husbands die early or end up in an unhappy pseudo-equal companionship for a marriage.
          Women have responsibilities. It’s a shame the modern equality movement completely absolves them of those responsibilities and focuses on training them to be office slaves and taxpayers. And where are these empowered feminists all employed? As government employees, school teachers, and office staff. Net drains to taxpayers, society, and their families.

        3. I think you know this makes no logical sense whatsoever:

          If you think they’re worth it, you are very, very young

          As your Bible indicates, if you are waiting around for a woman to take responsibility for anything you will be waiting for eternity. Remember that was written thousands of years ago, not last week on ROK. Little has changed my friend.
          What would you think of a businessman who hired poor staff and then lamented their “lack of responsibility”?
          Sadly for you, the full responsibility of maintaining and managing a family rests upon your shoulders. You will be the one to discipline and keep your woman in line. As such, it is your responsibility to select a woman with an agreeable personality who accepts her role.
          Or you could just give up. That’s what real men do right?

        4. I think smart men today give up on LTRs. They just cycle women in and out, not getting overly emotionally involved, trying to go into a friend with benefits arrangement with as many of them as possible. Of course, you want the girl to want you and want to escalate it so she’ll stick around.

        5. You actually hit the nail on the head. Remain emotionally detached by physically connected to as many women as humanly possible and you maximize your happiness as a man while minimizing your liability. It’s the most rational thing to do in the Western World in 2015. We didn’t create this situation – we’re simply making them most of it.

        6. That’s how I am man. Got a regular chick coming over to provide me sex. When that gets tiresome, ex girl to the next girl…

        7. That’s certainly a way to do it, english. I’ve been there, done that. But then you’re leaving a lot of damaged goods for other men to deal with when they try to find a mother for their children.

        8. Well I apologize in advance but if the two of us are having consensual sex am I solely responsible for the “damaged goods”? Note that none of this girls are virgins when they meet me. I did have one and I kept her for seven years.
          You talk about damaged goods. My virgin was damaged goods as I later discovered she had been brutally and sexually assaulted by her mother when she was a child. Trust me, when I say the “damage” I do is minor in comparison.
          But would you suggest I become celibate for fear of ruining other men’s future wives? Why am I beholden to men I have never met?

        9. It’s a good question, english. We build the civil society we want, nobody else is responsible for it. Why would another man (or woman, for that matter) ever be beholden to you?

        10. I can only be responsible for myself. As long as I behave ethically, I don’t see how I can be maligned. To whit, to complain that two other individuals engaging in voluntary relations somehow harms you, is early stage socialism.

        11. english, you should know by now women are too irrational to consent like adults. Haven’t you heard? Men are responsible for their poor decisions. Just ask any feminist.

        12. Not accusing you of any wrongdoing, english.
          Hypothetical: would you have “consensual relations” with a married woman? Many married women would. Divorce courts would financially sodomize the husband for alimony and child support too. This is the modern liberalized feminist world we live in.
          What would kings do?

        13. No I would not get involved with a married woman or even one with a boyfriend. That’s pretty disgusting in my view.
          To me, its a bit like buying a stolen car, when you know its stolen. Sure it is a “consensual” or voluntary transaction with the thief but the thief does not have the legal capacity to make the deal.

        14. Dude if woman didn’t have a triangle between there legs people would be throwing rocks at them for sure.

        15. I would get involved with a married woman or girl with a boyfriend, those are my faviourt ones because it shows how shit they really are..I even got one pregnant and now the Beta man is looking after and paying for the baby hahaha, I feel great joy in getting vengance against woman who I scam into my bed and I cum inside every single one of them, I remember I threw out a woman who dared to ask me to use a condom, and also I gave another woman the clap, of course I never saw her again, and I had to get this painful injection in my arm to cure the shit but fuck it felt good either way.

    2. Noble reply my son. Eschew liberal equality and individualism at every opportunity. It is the mentality of slaves, serfs and commoners who know nothing about nobilitas. Press forward and conquer!

    3. Society conditions men to be wimyn’s emotional tampons. Screw that, these ladies wanna equal treatment then they have to learn the definition of responsibility and put it into practice. Ermm…this is off topic but the picture of Lucy Watson at the top of this article is golden. A fine English specimen physically speaking. I like her submissive posture.

  4. girls are unpredictable. One might think he is doing the right thing and a girl can quickly change her mind and deny sex at the last minute. This article points out the exact necessities of escalating quickly and I agree with that. I use the good looking loser’s sexual escalation techniques and quickly scanning which girls are dtf. Going on multiple dates and hoping for sex may work for some people but imo that is a waste of time for me. I like the fast and quick approach even if rejection rates are high.

      1. If you think girls are predictable you are not maintaining your frame. Girls don’t even know what they want..

        1. That’s the point. What they want is irrelevant, they don’t know, they don’t understand, it’s up to you to direct their interest to yours.

        2. Lately I’ve been eavesdropping on girls at coffee-shops etc., to hear what they talk about without men around.
          They get so worked up over their discussion you’d think they’d found the cure for cancer. I consistently discover that they’re losing their marbles over some dumb shit like whether or not they should cut their hair.
          Then they go home and cry because their cats wont give them children. This is specifically western women though… perhaps women of other cultures are not as ridiculous.

        3. “I dunno, when I listen to women talk, its sounds like birds fightin over a worm.” -Billy Burr

        4. Speaking from experience, they can be just as ridiculous anywhere really. All it takes is a little stimulus to the hamster and a spinning they go.
          What I have found is the stimuli are what’s different across cultures. So basically AWALT but with slightly different buttons.

        5. I am not a spiritual anything, I just repeat what I have seen or researched. It’s not even wisdom, it’s just a long life of noticing shit.

        6. It’s not the stuff that you say, as much as the way you say it that gets me. What I really wanted to say is, I admire your style.

        7. err… okay, thanks, I guess. Wait till I get long winded about some History someone got wrong. I could put an eggplant to sleep.

      1. No. I been on RoK since 2012. I been lurking back then but recently commenting.

  5. This is totally random but I remember just to boost my self confidence and attraction level I would constantly reject this hot stripper just because I could.
    Reject a hot chick and it not only drives them nuts, it boosts your confidence for the next string of cuties you approach

        1. Tell her that it didn’t feel like she was enthusiastic when she went down on you. Watch her face reaction. lol But then all you’re really doing is setting her up to act like an insatiable porn star for the next guy.

    1. I like rejecting the hot ones, acting like they almost annoy me, and just being all over their ugly friend… and not even moving for sex, just really acting like I can’t live without the ugly one…. makes the hot chick lose her shit every time…. and of course the ugly one talks you up to every person she knows for the rest of her life.

      1. It never makes you look good to be all over any woman, much less an ugly one.
        I find that ugly women generally just attack me out of desperation, because being an attractive guy with a big dick, I won the chess match before it even began.
        It’s fun to watch them whine and nag me though.

        1. LOL, I don’t typically take them home. I’m married…. i just do it in front of the hot girl to make her think WTF…

  6. I don’t often enjoy one night stands, at least not regularly. So I’m curious why this is true:

    When meeting a girl on a date for the first time you must sexualise the interaction, you must push the envelope

    What’s wrong with just waiting until date 2 or 3 to do this? Because it wastes your time?

        1. meh, I don’t mind spending money to get laid. It just formalizes the fact that she’s a whore.

        2. Even so you’re spending time.
          If you have other stuff going on in life you need to budget your time.

        3. If you’re going to pay, hire an escort, you can pick the looks you like and get guaranteed results. If she’s good, you can guarantee call back with none of the games or stress.

    1. For a few reasons but the one that needs to be understood is that upon your first date it’s, quite literally, a competition of sorts. A guy can go out with a girl, make out with her, her say that he’s the best thing since sliced bread and she will still go home and contact choice number two. That is why he says (in my view) that it must be sexualised and made obvious your intentions from early on. Kind of like leading a sheep.
      I don’t believe he means to fuck her on date one but rather make intentions known. I personally think it’s a horrible idea to fuck a chick on the first date if you (the guy) has any actual interest so 2-3 dates is actually my own thought process as well. However, innuendo, taking the lead, and asserting your position from early on is really important.

      1. Call # 2? She’ll probably take home left overs from the date you went on to her friend with benefits. When they get done smashing… she will then text choice #2, #3, and #4… then get on twitter and accept 2 new dates for later that week. New, Now(smash), Next…. that’s their motto.

    2. It used to be first date meet and greet, second date making out, third date sex. Hook up culture accelerated by smart phones has changed things. If the woman has above average looks her phone is lighting up with messages with guys who want to “hang out”. If you try to wait for third date, she might think something is wrong, or just want to be friends. I’ve tried to close at the end of the first date with a kiss and got the pull back from women, who then didn’t want 2nd date. I wondered if I moved to fast and scared them off. I’ve also got the pull back at the end of the first date from women, and then they’d text me later saying they want 2nd date. So going for the kiss good night usually won’t disqualify you from seeing her again if she really wants to see you.

      1. I think it’s good advice. Usually when I meet a girl that I consider a really good LTR prospect, I am a little more reserved, like to do 3 date steps like above… But honestly this always seems to fail. I think those days are over, so time to change my ways and just treat all the girls the same, escalate whether I’m going for pump n dump or LTR.

      2. Most girls are “talking” to no less than 5 guys at a given time…. they are getting 2 to 3 invitations for dates per day if they are on social media. If you wait to a third date, they have met many more guys, all of whom have tried to win their interest since they first saw you, and you can’t ever get them focused on you.

  7. “When meeting a girl on a date for the first time you must sexualise the interaction, you must push the envelope”
    And then you get hit with a sexual harassment lawsuit.

  8. I have made this mistake a lot. The problem is, when I know a girl is a confirmed slut, I feel like another orbiter if I don’t treat her accordingly. I guess that’s just me being jaded as hell. If I know a girl is a slut, why not push for the lay asap? Obviously this was covered in the article, but it is frustrating nonetheless.

  9. I think this article describes the exact thing that happened to me at the weekend – I had a 5 hour date with a really good girl and then at the end of it started making out with her too heavily – touching too much etc and didn’t push hard enough to go back with her although I doubt it would have been doable. The few days after felt like it went well but I think it dawned on me before I read this that she probably won’t get back to me now
    I thought the fact that I didn’t get her back was the only thing that ruined it but I think I see it was being too rough with her while we were still on the date – lesson learnt – don’t be too rough with good girls – they don’t need to be worshippedl but do need to be treated carefully

  10. I’d say the vast majority of first time sex encounters with a new girl (including what would turn out to be one night stands) were at their place. I suppose my “game” is not doctrinaire since I have picked up exactly zero women at a bar or nightclub while most were through telephone or websites (but not Tinder).
    Otherwise, I sort of followed the game plan: sexualize early and escalate. But then cool it off and get an excuse to see her place: her DVD collection, art portfolio, the view from her balcony, her herb garden or dog, back for a night cap or to try the ice wine you picked up on your last out of town trip. . .whatever. Once there I went into a holding pattern and in almost every case, they will escalate at which point all bets are off.
    In my early 20s before I really got a handle on the system that works for me I had a strange experience where a girl took me back to her place and we were making out to the point where we were both in bed naked. I asked her “What do you like?”
    She answered “I would like to stop.”
    I got up, got dressed and left and that was that. There is a bit of context that drove my reaction, but that was pretty messed up.

      1. We were both in the military (same rank, different units) and this was the early 90s when feminism was infiltrating the army and we had mandatory harassment lectures (sort of miniature versions of what many university freshmen have to go through). I wasn’t going to chance ending up as check mark in the feminist “win” column if something went sideways while taking a second, third or fourth run at her.

    1. Women’s Brains….. There you both were, Naked and Making Out, and suddenly she felt that going “All The Way” would make her a Slut….

      1. To this day I don’t know what the issue was. However, it would have made a good story to bang the first combat sergeant in the Canadian military.

    2. I’ve had this situation two different times. I learned: As soon as the first time starts don’t rationalize the situation by asking questions. The sex selection-process if you will only stops until your penis is in.

  11. How is it counterintuitive? Its like getting blue balls. Were just the ones expected to make it happen.

  12. The great paradox. On one half of the site, we want women to not give in to one night stands. On the other half, we want to do that regularly.

    1. Honestly, I enjoy the hunt as it’s nearly as good as the catch. If it’s too easy it’s not as satisfying. I had a legit 8 once where we didn’t mention sex or even make out, she just went into my room. Around the same time I had a 6.5 I went back and forth with for a week. A good time was had all around but the 6.5 set off that innate charge of conquer that comes from the hunt.

  13. Sexual escalation is something I’ve gotten very good at, though I prefer to date the type of girl who doesn’t put out right away. That way I know she won’t get upset with me and go fuck the first guy she sees on the street. I don’t want to spend extended time with sluts.

    1. I think it all depends on how much work it is too “hook up” with a new one. For me, i want to be able to keep one a while. I don’t like the bar scene and its hard to get a girl into bed for me, so I like to get a least a few months use out of them before they decide they want to move to another guy or try to force me into something permanent.

  14. You’re doing it wrong. If you go to the right places, usually parties but sometimes clubs, there are no “dates.” The code word is “fun.” When a woman says she loves to have “fun” it means she will put out.

  15. Easy Cum, easy go. It’s become quite the balancing act nowadays. I respect some resistance, but by 2nd meet up (I don’t do dates in the traditional sense), if they aren’t giving it up, it’s a big waste.
    If I was to go on a 3rd date, which I’m not sure I’ve ever gone that long trying to get laid, I’d expect she is using me for something the guy(s) actually fucking her aren’t providing. Forget that crap.
    I had a girl on a 2nd bar meetup earlier this year, actually grab my head with both hands while I was talking to a bartender chick while getting our drinks, and try to forcefully stick her tongue down my throat. I literally fell out of the seat in shock because there was very little kino she seemed receptive to, and I didn’t even know it was her at first. Big laughs when I bailed out of the chair. I banged her later that night.
    After getting to know her, in retrospect somehow I feel like if I would have given into her PDA it would have killed too much tension too early in the night, plus I would have submitted to her frame, which isn’t good from my experience unless you’ve banged her a few times already.

    1. The corollary is that if I’m banging a girl for a while and I start to make her feel slutty enough outside the bedroom, and too much of the sexual vibe is maintained outside the act of sex, she’ll be going out with other guys fulfilling the emotional void I leave in her making her feel too slutty for fucking me.
      Thus, she’s going on random dates with other guys I don’t know about trying to recapture the traditional courting behavior that makes a girl feel less slutty. The sluttiness band-aide I suppose.

  16. I could really identify with this article.
    Being newly single after 20 years I have had to learn a lot. “The point of no return” happened to me about 8 or 9 times in the first 6 months. I didn’t understand how she could be so into me every time (heavy makeouts, letting me put my hands anywhere I wanted, etx), and then not want to see me again. When you mix the one date lays in between, its enough to make your head spin.
    Backing off the serious escalation until you have her isolated at her place or yours makes perfect sense.

  17. Right on.
    I’ve passed the point of no-return before. Something you said made me think…
    Anyone seeing us together would have assumed—rightly—that she was really into me
    I say women aren’t into men, as much as they are into the MOMENT, the MOOD, and NOT THE MAN. The man with game creates the moment by escalating to the point where she wants the bang. Wait too long or handle the moment wrong and you’re SOL.
    Beta providers are the men that women are really into, as they provide woman the resources to support her spending habit.

  18. True story. Happened to me too on a few occasions. The most intense kissing and making out ever, only for her to stomp on the brakes after a while and then not wanting to meet again. Oh well, I guess you can’t always win them all .. haha. But thinking back, after the fact I came to your same conclusion, Troy: that I pushed too hard and scared the cat away, even though they seemed really into it at the moment. Perhaps it’s a combination of slut defense, and being *too* eager to get them which turns them off?

  19. This has happened to me lots of times. Though, truth be told, I have had the converse happen a few times too; getting a girl turned on, not banging her that night, and HER pinging me the next day to seal the deal. Admittedly, that is the exception not the rule. Some chicks (like the straddler in this article) will refuse to meet again because *I* was moving to fast…

  20. If i am just out for sex and nothing more I would take a girl home on the first date, but at any point I want an LTR I am going to punt a girl that sleeps with me on the first date after I do the deed. I’m sorry, but I have no respect for a girl that gives it up on the first night. As we all know, girls who have high premarital partner counts are highly prone to divorce statistically because they can’t keep long term pair bonds. Why waste my time with chicks like that? If I want cheap easy sex, I’ll call a really hot call girl, its way cheaper, guaranteed, and if she’s great in the sack and I can call her back over and over.

    1. And if you can Get a Virgin for a LTR/Marriage even better, there is a Huge Psychological/Emotional Factor in the Female persona that will almost 100% Guarantee that she will stay with a Man once you Take it From her.

  21. Girls do their hardest to please their friends, more than they please themselves, they will call each other “sluts” to increase their own sex market value.

    1. No matter why they do it, its usually true. You want to know your girls skank factor? Ask the one friend in her group that is jealous of her. You’ll know soon enough.

  22. The OP is crying around because he can´t make her to sleep with him on the first meeting…. these are definitely first world problems.
    we don´t want girls to be sluts, yet we want All of them to sleep with us within the first hour of meeting. seems legit

    1. oh no, you think we’re talking about the same girl. If we are looking for a hookup, we want an easy girl to hook up with. If we are looking for an LTR, first of all you shouldn’t be meeting a bar, second, you want her to be a much longer game plan. The same girl cannot be both… a quick lay is not ever good for an LTR and vice versa. Depends which one you are looking for at a given point. You need to know which one and look with purpose. If you hook up with a girl night 1 and try to turn it into an LTR you are going to get burned in a big way. It’s only a matter of time.

  23. How to avoid the point of no return? Think about Zoe Quinn. Unfortunately, after doing so, not only do I prevent myself from coming, but I’m usually softer than a doughnut that has been dunked in coffee for too long.

  24. Cynical responses all around and rightly so. I’m inclined to share because I see a tactics and choices that will be confusing to men. First in manosphere it’s widely considered for dating to be obsolete. Like chivalry it’s a useful relic to females to use or extort men. Second inconsistency is the approach used of rapid escalation while on a date. That sends mixed signals and her being all over you might have been a test of your intentions. You failed it for obvious reasons.
    To be blunt and crass, you don’t take a girl you intend to fuck on a date. At most drinks at the bar with separate checks and accession of mutual interest.

    1. That’s what I said. Even if you’re going for a one night stand, in most cases you’ll have to meet her somewhere first, and that usually means a drink or two. Don’t confuse this with ‘dating’ in the traditional sense, it’s merely a practicality.

      1. So how do you have a one night stand with a girl you already know? If you invite her out for 1 or 2 drinks or something, before escalating, isn’t that date?

  25. I thought this post was going to be about not getting married… oh the disappointment. I think the key to avoiding failure is to learn how to gauge a woman’s boundaries. For some women, it’s clear a ONS is never going to happen and you’ve gotta play the long game. Other times, it is just a matter of timing and pushing the right buttons.

  26. If that interaction went past the point of no return, but the girl is still around (i.e. in social circle)… is there a way to start new? would you just have coffee with her or something harmless to normalize the relation again and then start new?

    1. I think that depends on the girl and if she was drunk. If she’s relatively rational and you were both intoxicated, yes, you can start new. If it was a long engagement (most of the evening) and she was sober, or if she’s a basket case, forget it… its damaged.

      1. Thanks for the reply, js27195. I really appreciate it!
        From my own experience, if you feel the perfect moment is there, then the window of escalation is open and you can cash in on the opportunity – when you have your logistics right… if not, it becomes increasingly more difficult to execute later. Even with girls that are totally into you. So either stop when she starts becoming interested and take her number for a date later on, or be prepared to go all the way.
        Same with business. If you are offered a great opportunity, but you can’t take the offer, or you are not organized enough to capitalize on the opportunity, you have wasted a chance. Similarly, if you write a great article on your blog, and somebody shares this with a lot of followers – but the rest of your blog looks shitty, then those followers will not come back. Opportunity wasted.
        Always be prepared.

  27. This reminds me of something I figured out in HS. Women sometimes say “he was a gentleman,” when you ask about how a date when.
    Does that mean they didn’t screw, make out heavy betting, oral, whatever? Not necessarily. I’ve found, usage-wise, it means you went one step less than she was willing to go. You got her wanting or at least willing to go to point X, and you took it only to .9 X or some lesser place. You pushed, you were attractive, you turned her on, but you left something for later. It makes them feel better about everything, it adds to your allure, it suggests you’re not “too hungry,” and, for you, it means more for later.

  28. This dovetails into the female habit of blaming the guy for stuff she did and/or wanted. Like, she’s horney enough to practically have sex at the restaraunt and makes out till her panties are soaked. Then she goes home and feels like a slut. And the reason she won’t go out with the guy the second time is that she eases her ego by blaming the guy.

  29. In my experience if she goes for the second drink – sex is going to happen. Keep escalating and often it’s her doing the work.

  30. I tell you what. This is why if I can’t talk em into coming to my house for a first date, I damn near always meet them for coffee. One, I don’t have money for drinks 4 times a week. And 2 ONS’s seem to be the excpetion not the rule to me. Sure I’ve gotten plenty, but I find it hard to believe a guy is banging most of his day 1s on the first meet.
    Plus, you’d be surprised. Women are mad pliable. If you get a good rapport over the phone ALOT will “stop by for a glass of wine.” The ones who want are probably trying to play a girlfriend role and won’t “do that.” That’s how I weed out the one nights from the not going to happens. I think it’s pretty accurate.
    So, why meet them for coffee? If I’m not far and they like me, I’ll say Hey, let’s go have a glass of wine and watch a movie. Especially on a Friday night with nothing to do. That’s worked a few good times. And then afterwards I’ll try to give her a smooch. If she’s down, it’s just a matter of time.. (Chill relax). If she turns the cheek, on to the next and 50 bucks stays in my pocket. Can’t lie though. if finances and logistics were better, I’d probalby be trying to liquor them up and bang them more but my method works. Just hit 100 lays last friday. 30 yrs old.

    1. Right. If you talk a bit dirty over the phone before seeing them, she at least knows your that kind of guy. Might prevent the “period” excuse.

  31. We men would like a sex-probability flowchart or some formula. There is not such a thing for this dating-sex thing. The only way you’re going to get laid is to be bold about your intentions but at the same time know how to dose it and when to see when she likes you enough. Only experience can give you that. But it’s better to fail than not to try and hate yourself afterwards.

  32. Who the hell has time for all this shit? Fuck bitches. Better to make more mad money and avail the services of hookers.

  33. I would like to know how frequent it is for a woman who is initially interested, but turns you down on the first night to then avoid you altogether. Is this the most likely outcome or is it more likely for such a woman to meet you again and sleep with you on the 2nd or 3rd or later?
    Why would woman who was attracted to you and even turned on by you then avoid you altogether? Is it because she thinks you are a creep for trying to sleep with her on the 1st day?

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