“Art Of Manliness” Is Poisoning The Concept Of Masculinity With Disney Lifestyle Advice

I’ve perused the website Art of Manliness a few times in the past year.  Something always vaguely turned me off about it, with its smug, woman-friendly, safe, feel-good presentation, and those feelings have recently hardened into outright hostility.  Simply put, Art of Manliness is neither artful nor manly.  It’s strictly a commercial site designed only to make money for its owners, and offers a neutered version of masculinity that would appeal only to pot-bellied, middle-aged keyboard jockeys.  These are the problems I have with the site.

Lack of Credibility

Art of Manliness was created in 2008 by husband and wife team Kate and Brett McKay.  If you look at the website, it seems like more than half of the articles there were written by the two of them.  And herein lies the biggest problem that the website can never overcome.


No woman can offer a man advice on how to be a man.  Period.  Thou shalt not accept advice from a woman on manliness.  There are no exceptions to this rule.  It doesn’t matter if her intentions are noble.  It doesn’t matter if she means well.  The inescapable fact is that the art of being a man is a subject outside of her range of experience.  If I tried to write for a women’s blog on the arts of child bearing and child rearing, I would be laughed at.  And justifiably so.  But only in feminized America can a woman presume, with her infinite arrogance, to offer advice to men on how to be a man.

And it is just when a woman is trying to be helpful, trying to “save” a man, that she is at her most dangerous.  Beware that woman who wants to “save” you.  She may truly believe it, and she may sincerely want it.  But beware her just the same.  Because deep down, in her innermost heart, the most secret and cherished desire of every woman is to see a man dethroned, and rolled in the muck.  She’ll never admit this, of course.  Ask her, and she’ll get furiously indignant in her denials.  But it is true just the same.  You can just feel it.

On this path of struggle that we men must walk, our woman cannot carry our burdens.  We are, each of us, alone.  And this is the first law of masculinity.  And it is the most important law.

Lack of Suffering

Another irritating thing about this site is its rated G, safe, feel-good tone.  There is no angst here.  There is no bitterness here.  There is no suffering, no anguish, no pain, no conflict, no controversy.  We men need these things.  We crave them.  We need struggle, combat, stress, anxiety, bitterness, and anguish.  These things define us.  They create us, and make us who we are.

Yet Kate and Brett want to take those things away from me, and reduce me to a neutered goody-two-shoes, like them.  Well, guess what, Kate and Brett.  You can’t control me.  You aren’t going to corral me into your safe, goody-two-shoes world.  I’d prefer to whip out my tomahawk and take a few scalps.  That’s me.

I need my angst and my bitterness.  What makes us so much greater than you, and more profound than you, is that we recognize this.  We don’t try to cover up the pain that is out there, like you do.  We don’t offer nicey-nice blandishments or opiates to our readers, like you do.

When you read Return of Kings, you are confronted with a raw, bracing, bitch-slapping experience.  It is an experience bristling with emotion, sexual energy, anxiety, angst, suffering, and mania.  And it is well that it should be so.  For this is the raw energy of the masculine masses bubbling forth in all its uncontrolled intensity.  We celebrate that.  We revel in that.  We offer danger.  They offer platitudes.

We are the unloved, the unwanted, the dispossessed, and the downtrodden.  And our message is more sincere, more honest, and more real, than anything you can offer.  We’re living this life in real-time, but you two are just tourists in the domain of masculinity.  And it is we, Kate and Brett, who will inherit the earth.  Not you.  Us.  To paraphrase Robert De Niro in Cape Fear: we can out-write you, we can out-fuck you, we can out-run you, and we can out-philosophize you.

Lifestyle Limitations

Another credibility issue arises from the worldview and lifestyle of the McKays.  Kate McKay graduated from Brigham Young University.  Brett McKay, in his own words, spent two years in Mexico “doing service.”  The name McKay is frequently a Mormon name.  A photo of the couple, combined with this other information, seems to indicate that they are practicing Mormons.

I want to be very clear here that I would never criticize anyone solely on the basis of their background, faith, or ethnicity.  It makes no difference to me what someone’s background is.  But I believe that the worldview of the site’s founders severely limits their ability to offer good advice on certain key aspects of the male experience, namely:  game, dating skills, and seduction.  A major part of the male experience is the pursuit and conquest of women.  To deny that is delusional.


That’s just my opinion.  I can’t see how someone who doesn’t drink, smoke, or even use caffeine can meaningfully speak on approaching, female shit tests, text game, data sheets of foreign countries, sex tips, game tips, and other similar topics that are integral to the single dating male experience.  It’s simply a matter of someone’s life experiences and credibility.  AoM offers zero advice on the topic of recreational sex.


In its overall tone, Art of Manliness seems sterile, neutered, and cold.  There is too much of a corporate feel, too much of an appearance of a retail sales site.  There is none of the rollicking, Wild West deviltry that you will find in the comments section of a Return of Kings article.  One gets the impression that AoM was created to serve the needs of henpecked, middle-aged, overweight fathers looking for a safe, female-approved, “masculine” experience.

AoM cultivates readers that don’t want or seek meaningful challenges.  The typical AoM reader is one who will seek the approval of his domineering wife for everything he does, one who will have his wife hanging over his shoulder to make sure he isn’t infected by dangerous ideas on the internet.

When all is said and done, Art of Manliness can’t contribute meaningfully to the debate on male self-improvement.  It’s the type of safe, bland, and do-nothing masculinity that leads nowhere.  They’re not part of the solution, but part of the problem.

Read More:  How Not To Be A Man

362 thoughts on ““Art Of Manliness” Is Poisoning The Concept Of Masculinity With Disney Lifestyle Advice”

  1. “No woman can offer a man advice on how to be a man.”
    So then no man can offer a woman advice on how to be a woman. Which pretty much nullifies a good 30% of the material on this website.
    But I wouldn’t expect you to actually adhere to your own standards; men are way too hypocritical for that.

    1. Women give advice that’s horseshit 90% of the time. And the man who needs advice can’t tell if the advice he’s getting is in the 10% that’s good or the 90% that’s bad.
      On net, ignoring all advice from women and seeking it only from men is wise.

      1. Women do have their own perspective which can be valuable at times. You don’t necessarily have to take their advice, but it can be valuable to hear and consider it.
        So here’s some advice on the sort of woman to look to for advice:
        She is over 60.
        She is still in her first marriage.
        Her marriage doesn’t obviously suck.

        1. When you are ready you can get the most from any experience being bad, good or ugly. Problem is, some young men are not ready, and sites like AoM perpetuates the myths through that “feel good” tone.
          Maybe calling this a war is an exageration, bui I have lost too many years of my life because of the lies that the media, my parents, the church and society had shoved down my throat.

        2. “Maybe calling this a war is an exageration, bui I have lost too many
          years of my life because of the lies that the media, my parents, the
          church and society had shoved down my throat.”
          Could NOT, have said it better myself.
          And thats what RoK is doing , helping us fight back.
          Fuck pussy mangina sites like Art Of Fagliness
          The dude is fucking MARRIED. Doesnt that tell you enough about the fucking faggot?

      2. The worst mistake of my life was getting game advice from women. No wonder I was in the black pit of game hell from 8th grade until last summer (before my freshman year of college).

      3. Even with the 10% of good advice, its very easy to misunderstand her. Women use language differently. They dont have conversations, they just shoot emotions at each other.

    2. Women can say what they like and don’t like about men, and I would advise men to listen a little, but don’t believe a word they say. Men should watch what women do, and never listen to what they “like and dislike” about anything.
      Men can also say what they like and dislike, but feminists will never accept that, they will pathologically try to shut down the conversation and either kick the boys out or move the gals in to occupy male space.
      Never listen to what a woman has to say about anything, especially masculinity. Women should listen to men because they are often much more honest and unfettered in their speech, except when feminists are glaring at them and censoring them.

    3. I clearly stated that I, as a man, was not qualified to offer women advice on things unique to them, like child bearing or child rearing. So, it’s already been noted and said.
      Your err also in stating that we here at ROK “offer advice” to women. We’re not offering them any advice. We’re advising men.
      We’re stating our preferences, opinions, and ideas. We could care less what you think about it.

      1. you can learn something from everyone if you are open minded…. even if that lesson is how not to make the same mistakes as them….
        and i think women can offer advice to men in certain situations,
        especially if the man is grounded and focused in his own right……
        the key to being the so called ‘alpha’ is not being the text book alpha
        that everyone goes on about, but simply being unswayed in your
        determination to improve yourself and not be influenced by all the noise around you…. how you live and think… is much more important than what you do…. a good alpha could certainly help a woman give birth, help a young kid learn some life lessons, raise a family and do a great many positive things …. he should be a pillar in his own right and not identified with who or where his key learnings in life come from, or try to pin his identity on circumstances and other people in his life.

        1. Yes there are exceptions, but the man who is begining this journey, emasculated by the media and the women that raised him has to learn a lot, and I mean it, before accepting any advice from women.

      2. Although men cannot bear children, men are superior to women in child rearing. Single mothers raise children that do not perform well as adults, while single fathers raise children that are mostly normal when they grow up.

        1. To cut the point a bit finer, women tend to be better at raising babies to be toddlers.
          Men tend to be better at raising toddlers to be adults.
          Children raised by men can be effectively adult at an age as young as 12 (the future Admiral Farragut was given his first command at that age).
          Children raised by women can be infantile into their 30s, as managing infantile behaviour is their strength, that is where women try to keep things.

        2. This is why in Islam, in the case of a divorce, men get the children who are old enough to be weaned. The woman can continue to take care of a baby, but when it has been weaned, the child will go to live with the father.

        3. Fuck Islam. Don’t taint this site with that bullshit. And don’t try to point to Islam and state that there is logic in any of its tenants.

        4. As the axiomatic foundation of Islam is the belief that the Bible is the true, revealed word of God, I am inclined to agree with you.

        5. Actually, Islam’s perspective is that the Bible is a human document, filed with errors and corruptions. That is the same position taken by modern biblical scholarship. islam believes that there was a real divine revelation given to Moses and Jesus, but the modern Bible is a corrupted shadow of that.

        6. I’ll take Islam’s polygamy and endorsement of male dominance over feminized Judaism and Christianity any day. And guess what? So will the whole of Western civilization within a century.

        7. It the foundational premise that the true, revealed word of God has been corrupted by the hand of man. Yes.
          That is not a tenant, or even a tenet. That is provable and accepted fact by all but the most rabid literalists.
          If they’re waving around a KJB they are idiots as well.

        8. Im not Muslim. But props to any fucking religion that keeps their cunt bitches in check.
          Bitch cuckolds her hubby?
          Gets kneeled down in front of the whole town and rat-a-tat-tat in the back of the head with the Kalishnikov.
          No laughing about her affair with her girlfriends at Starbucks.

        9. Single mothers are your only option since men don’t care enough about their offspring to be a constant prescence in their lives. They’re much more likely to abandon their children than be the sole parent.

    4. GO AWAY!
      Why do you keep coming back?
      What is it that is missing from JEZEBEL that you feel the need to crap in our man space?
      We are really not that interested in what you think and your contribution.

    5. um… no. nice try, but no cookie. nowhere on this site does anyone address women, and give them a checklist of what it takes to be a ” real woman”
      what your see here, are men discussing with other men about what we want in women and how to get it. you women are free to do whatever you want with your life. you’re free to get fat, nasty, and annoying, but don’t expect us to want to have anything to do with you if you do. you can be a 30 year old 200lbs slut with five bastards with five different jobless loser baby daddies, but I think I’ll share my lifestyle, my love, and my dick with women who are up to my standards.

        1. Don’t ban her! We might catch her drunk one day and convince her to post some topless pics. I bet she has nice hard huge black nipples! 😀

        2. I call bullshit, that’s not you. This is the internet anyone can posit any picture as themselves.
          Further photographic proof or stfu.

  2. Art of Manliness:
    How To Seduce A Grandmother Into Setting You Up On A Date With Her Cute Grand Daughter If This Was The 1950s

    1. i think RoK could do with taking a leaf from it’s early days and
      focusing on game, self improvement and historical male role models,
      rather than on MRA, Anti-Feminism and poking at things it doesn’t
      the great message is still there, but spun with a more
      negative tone by becoming identified with what others are writing rather
      than sticking to it’s own philosophies…
      the two articles i wrote about a female CEO for Apple, and the Forbes top most powerful women’s list made me take a long cold hard look at my own attitude and ideas, and how to better express them…..
      it’s too easy to take the moral high ground and start banging at other people (even if you are right)…. as opposed to just focusing on your own development…
      the point of having a soap box is to communicate a positive message, rather than stand a foot higher than everyone else and pontificate.

      1. I agree somewhat. Often the loudest voices critical of feminism are the least equipped to replace it with anything coherent and positive.
        When you fully accept that feminism is a pack of lies, you don’t get surprised every time a feminist says something outrageously false, just as one shriek in fear every time night falls. While others were incredulous, I laughed when some feminist came out saying all vaginal penetration by a penis is rape. I’d bet that that is a logical conclusion of MAINSTREAM feminist doctrine, just feminists are wise enough to know this would make them look like fails.

        1. i totally agree, even the word feminism is completely misleading, since real feminism would focus on improving women’s feminine roles and making females in their true and purest sense more valuable…. rather than having penis envy and trying to tell women they are invalid unless they compete with men in careers, education, politics and business….today’s feminism is masculinization for women…. it has nothing to do being feminine at all…..
          with that said, harping on about it is kind of pointless … if you are not careful you become the reflection of your enemy….

        2. You know there are as many different flavors of feminism as there are on the manosphere, don’t you? ROK and other wet-diaper-angry MRA voices are simply the counterpart of the very firebreathing, man-hating feminists ROK whines about, but in the meantime, just as AoM can espouse a variety of competent, emotionally mature masculinity that isn’t about “bangin’ hos”, mainstream feminism, which doesn’t make headlines because it isn’t controversial, espouses sensible equality and coexistence between the sexes that isn’t some zero-sum game.

      2. So spot on, that it needs repeating:
        “i think RoK could do with taking a leaf from it’s early days and
        focusing on game, self improvement and historical male role models,
        rather than on MRA, Anti-Feminism and poking at things it doesn’t
        like… ”
        The new articles have almost no use for me. They are mostly not useful, nor good. I read the old stuff which is orders of magnitude better and actually useful.

        1. There is no monolithic ROK – ROK is the sum of its writers and what they decide to write about. If there’s something you want to see, write it and write it well, and it will get posted.

        2. “I know that I don’t know enough”
          If you want Game 1.0 you can drop entire concept of redpill and regress to the performance of Mystery, Durden or that clown who writes for Askmen. You can’t exclude MRAs, MGTOWs or anti-feminists from menosphere. If you are thirsty for knowledge there are many other sites. Seek ’em out. RoK is a meka for all redpill world.

      3. one of the few decent comments on this webside. I’m sorry I have to give you my approval as a woman.

        1. Nobody here gives a fuck about your opinion or your approval. Go find another site to troll cunt. Why are you here? You trying to get laid sis?

        2. I agree with the article(you’re wrong about the caffeine). There are too many balding, white newbalance wearing, toe walking betas in Mormon culture.

      4. Agreed, I’ve said in the past that RoK is far too focused on things that really don’t help men overall. We should look at things like game and self-improvement, because those are the things that attracted me to this website in the first place.

        1. lol your own contributions to this site don’t hew to the very suggestions you make. One was about the ‘rise of manginas’ and the other you say you edited poorly.
          Roosh moved on from giving most basic game advice because its already mostly all out there. many of the contributors here are similar. you see something similar on the roosh forums.

        2. I’m going to also going to mention something anyone studying game should know with a few hours of field practice:
          We adapt.
          Repeating stuff that’s already out there is the reason fools like steve harvey makes those bullshit books/movies and everything shouldn’t be a step by step thing, but a general outline to explain what most people have gronked and can’t put on paper properly.
          While i’d love to make this comment longer, i will remind you that there are other sites in the manosphere out there and with some will power and time, you can make a site of your liking for the world to see.

      5. I agree that in the long run ROK needs to be more positive and focus on itself, but here’s the problem. There’s a reality we can’t ignore : the total lack of criticism of feminism and other ideologies in the media and in the social scene. Nobody dares speak against them, I feel ROK are one of the few sites that do. So if nobody speaks against destructive ideologies, who will? And how are they going to be brought down? We’re bombarded with anti male shit daily through TV, radio, newspaper, people, neighbors etc. Being angry about it is normal.

        1. I know I am a bit out of place here (read: generally unwelcome) but this is why I come. There is no place online that is going after the feminists like ROK does. Moreover, the Game behavior & attitude is what I think, in the end, is the only way to beat them. Spot on. I travel pretty wide/far in search of the data and fodder I am looking for (it feeds into a pet project of mine that for some reason is not a hot topic on ROK) and ROK definitely has the best coverage of feminism and the best examples (comments) as to how to counter them successfully. I loved the eating disorders ariticle comments – you guys were like century oaks in the eye of a hurricane. Really great to watch.

  3. Your criticisms are well-placed, Quintus. I’ve long held the same reservations about AoM. But I’d offer this addendum. I’ve dealt with Brett McKay before – I’ve written for his blog and got rejected a number of times. McKay is very aware of the kind of tone he wants to set with AoM and does a good job of holding to it. But he’s also very aware of its limits. His strategy is to reinforce authentic masculinity through positive reinforcement. AoM is like the goodwill ambassador of the manosphere – friendly, inoffensive, and likeable. McKay is very aware that there’s more to it than this, but he’s carved out his place in a larger movement and holds it well. Despite AoM’s relentlessly G-rated content, it’s disarming enough to attract guys who wouldn’t come across the more volatile aspects of masculinity of their own accord. Think of it less as a dead end and more of a gateway drug to the red pill.

    1. And therein lies the problem, Antares.
      We don’t need any more rated G, safe, woman-friendly models. That’s gotten us nowhere.
      We need fire-breathing dragons, we need tomahawk-swinging maniacs. We want to smash the furniture and the crockery, and roll their false gods town the steps of the Temple of the Plumed Serpent in Tenochtitlan.
      They won’t listen to anything short of that.
      We’re coming to get them. All of them. No quarter will be asked for, or given.

      1. “We” may not need the G-rated stuff anymore, but there may be other people who do. The AoM isn’t an end in itself, McKay doesn’t even pretend like it is, but it can be the beginning of something for the heretofore uninitiated. The very thing that makes any movement worth taking seriously so formidable is when it has a number of different organs all focused on distinct, but joint tasks. Sites like RoK are closer the heart of the manosphere to be sure, but be careful not to deny it it’s potential recruiting tools. Why settle for a mob when you can have an army?

        1. It may not be an end, but it won’t leat to the redpill, I’ve just gone through the website :
          – Sheep/sheepdog/wolf analogy: it’s okay to be a sheep, but don’t be a wolf.
          – How to make your gf meet your parents.
          – How to take care of a pregnant woman
          – 12 best movies about fatherhood
          – How delaying intimacy can improve your relationship
          The advice proposed won’t lead to redpill, most of it teaches the exact opposite RoK does.
          Here’s how I see it, a means for exploited submissive fathers to rationalize their bland boring life as respectable and masculine.

        2. Of course AoM should never be the end goal of the masculinity. It can’t even be considered Red Pill. But as Antares said, there’s value as a recruiting tool.
          It’s ingrained in the culture to oppress men, going hardcore against it will only make our ideas seem harsher and keep us higin behind nicknames on a website.
          If we slowly start to build the concept through the lesser agressive ideas, we can slowly turn the tides on.
          AoM have a lot of faults and shouldn’t be compared to RoK, but I think that we’re better of with it than without it.

        3. You people are like radical feminists trying to “purge” anyone who isn’t “feminist” enough for them.
          Fact is the haters here are a bunch of posers, who probably got cheated on or friendzoned and now just want to sleep with as many sluts as possible and claim that’s what being a “man” is.
          Well you lose, plenty of guys like Gene Simmons and Charlie Sheen have had sex with way more 9s and 10s than you. Warren Buffet is richer than you’ll ever be, and guys like Ronnie Coleman can bench way more than your weak asses.
          So you’re fighting a battle you can’t win by trying to equate manhood with pretending to be a wannabe alpha on the internet.

      2. There are plenty of chicks who chafe at AOM. The mere existence of a blog asserting that there is a gender-specific quality that can be called “manliness” outrages them.

        1. I found the Art of Manliness before I found anything else. That was right after finding the Ask Men web site (even worse.) I knew when I found AofM that I was onto something and would find better content if I kept digging. I found this site and Heartiste from there and then all the rest. I have never gone back to AofM. Even I could smell that it lacked any authenticity of being “Manly”.

      3. “It’s strictly a commercial site designed only to make money for its owners”
        As opposed to RoK, which is a site that…makes money for its owners.
        There may be reasons to critique AoM, but this sure as hell isn’t one of them. Making money off your site is not unmanly.

        1. Making money off of single men, yeah how noble. What an asswipe comment.
          Any small amount of money RoK makes is extremely well deserved.
          Not money made by some pussy faggot mormon mangina and his cunt wife that just wanted to capitalize on exploiting men so they could start a fucking online internet business.

        2. Wrong.
          There’s nothing wrong with making money. I don’t dispute that, and I don’t doubt that.
          But any perceptive person can instantly detect that ROK is a very different animal from AoM.
          There is a decided ideological intensity here that is totally lacking in AoM. From just looking at their site, you can see that it’s a bullshit family business, designed to rake in a few bucks for a married couple.
          But this site is different. There is a level of commitment, fervor, and zeal here that they do not have.
          Do the McKays have an army of fervent supporters behind them? No.
          Have they been in the trenches? No
          Have they endured the censorship, attacks, and persecution that we have? No.
          The fact is that we’re fighting in the trenches, and they’re living in the chateau, dining on snails and sipping on fine wine.

        3. You bring nothing to the table but hate. Please go away until you have something constructive to say. Unless you are actually a soldier, you have no trench to fight in, so stop pretending, dumbass – maybe you should start sipping red wine. At least it’d shut you up.

        4. Woah dude, grow up… Is everyone on this site like this? If so, I’d say you probably cater to a much smaller audience than you think. No one likes a hater, much less reads what they have to say.

        5. That’s rich, but no. You hawk the same general “product” packaged for relatively similar consumers. And you enjoy the same compensation in the same income bracket with the same perks, wine & all. Persecution? Sure. Enjoy your decent internet income, you poor oppressed soul (by your own inexplicably whiny self-deprecation; wtf, “man”?)…
          But good on you, a man never leaves his livelihood & reputation undefended. Done by the book, damn fine.

      4. Everyone has needs but not everything out there meets the needs of all people. AoM meets the needs of the people on there at this point in time. In a couple of months time it may no longer meet those needs for some.
        Likewise, ROK meets the needs of it’s readers at this point in time.
        The various websites and blogs cannot be all things to all people but as long as you are what your readership needs, then your bit of the www will survive.

      5. I think it’s pretty dumb to rip on the AoM instead of at least giving it credit for making an attempt to help men. There’s a lot more to manliness that shallow material possessions, the pursuit of “ass and tits” and being generally macho and/or violent. Not to mention, AoM is good at teaching some men the true basics of being a man – which is truly valuable to some guys who never had a father figure and have nowhere else to go to get such information on said basics. Without AoM you may very well just end up with a bunch of man goons who wear too much cologne, turn women into conquests, beat up anyone and everything, lifts too many weights, etc.
        AoM also does a great job of diving into the history and intellectual “why” behind doing important things to develop oneself as a man. If you don’t get how AoM could be of value to men everywhere, you have it all backwards, man.

      6. You seem like you’ve been wronged at some point in your life and are very bitter about it… and I’m assuming that since you have a problem with Brett’s wife writing/helping write for AoM, a woman wronged you in some way. I’d imagine it’s because you’re a bit of a psychopath. Yes, the idea of “fire-breathing dragons” and “smashing furniture” is exciting to me too, because I agree that some level of aggression is natural to males. However, we live in the year 2016, not the year 16. I don’t need to fight off a lion to defend my family which lives in a cave so we can live through the night. Manliness is going to mean something different to every person. To me, it’s taking care of my family by providing a warm home and food, defending them (in case of a home invasion by a human perhaps, not a lion), and being generous and respectful, but not letting myself be walked all over. It’s time to grow up sir. Dragons and tomahawks are things we dreamed about when we were children, it’s a bit pathetic to be craving it and saying you need it as an adult. Maybe take a look at your “needs” and realize they’re pretty barbaric, and think a little more realistically?

      7. Blah, blah, blah. You sound so impressive over the Internet. Look, guys, it’s the second coming of Marinetti.

    2. You make it sound like he’s one of us, using AOM has a subversive vehicle to usher in then red pill revolution when skynet becomes self-aware. I highly doubt that is the case.

      1. I wouldn’t really call the blog a Manosphere one at all. It doesn’t directly attack feminism, but it doesn’t extol it in the slightest. If anything, it is men talking to men about being manly for the sake of it, not living in reflex or in reaction to feminism.
        I see it as dismissive of feminism rather than being antagonistic to it. Some see that as a dangerous play, and I understand the sentiment. That doesn’t place AOM in the camp of the enemy or that of the “collaborator.”

        1. Theyre just TradCons. Its their version of manosphere. Is it helpful to red pill men? Not really, but it does still provide an alternative to the lefty mainstream: A 1950s alternative.

      2. The amount of scifi references never ceases to amaze.
        I wouldn’t describe McKay as “one of us.” But he does have a shared goal, for which I give him due credit. There’s nothing particularly subversive about what he’s trying to do, but he’s disarming enough that he very well may attract a large group of men to sites like this that wouldn’t be otherwise.

        1. Lol. What a dumbass. He was implying YOU submit articles, that why you are defending the faggots gay website here.

    3. I agree.
      Brett is a good guy, and an honest thinker.
      Brett has also referenced and linked to me, and I’m pretty radical and a potential liability.
      I have often used AoM as a way to introduce the “manosphere” to co-workers and guys I don’t know when I’m feeling them out to see if they’d be interested in masculinity-oriented content. A lot of men have visited AoM, so it is a good starting point of reference that isn’t a big corporate media entity or some feminist site.
      I wouldn’t do what he’s doing the way he’s doing it, which is why I do it the way I do it on my own site and articles I write elsewhere.
      I’d personally agree with many of the aesthetic and conceptual concerns raised by the original post, but I see Brett as an ally or at least a fellow traveler and see no benefit in criticizing him publicly for not being something he was never trying to be. He’s produced a lot of good content over the years, and done a lot of hard thinking about masculinity, and I wish him and his family the best
      If I had to attack someone, personally I’d much rather attack someone like Michael Kimmel (who Brett also doesn’t like) or the latest big media feminist beta.

      1. “a lot of hard thinking about masculinity”
        “How to take care of a pregnant woman”
        Sounds about as masculine as a fucking pink tutu on a tranny.
        I havent even seen this site yet and I already dont like it. Or him. Or his wife.

        1. There’s more to masculinity than just ‘banging chicks’.
          Thinking and introspection is a key to self improvement and intellectual development, it is one of the traits that differentiates the men from the chattering classes.
          Likewise, for those men in a committed relationship, the well-being of the bearer of your children and your own self are good things to know.

        2. Tsk tsk, so judgemental. How do you ever expect to make friends if you hate something before you’ve even seen it, you bloody Neanderthal. Maybe you should get out into the world and stop cursing someone when you aren’t even brave enough to put a goddamn name down, wanker

        3. lol if you think that “manliness” is just banging sluts at the bar, and praying that you didn’t knock them up and force another man to pay for your bastard spawn via welfare, then think again.

        4. Wow!! Seriously? Taking care of a pregnant woman might be the most manly thing a man can do. Even apes do that. If you can’t do that then you are the problem. Pick up your balls from the floor and start behaving like a man that can provide and protect.

      2. When I started my searching I got hold of a few books to read. Among them were a book called ‘No more Mr Nice Guy’ and ‘The Way of Men’ written by yourself.
        I’ve read the books in that order and I felt that it was a wise choice as Brett approaches things from a clinical therapist point of view, introducing the changed methods of thinking and interacting with others.
        I’m not familiar with the AoM website, however I gather from the comments that it is similarly a light and fluffy place without much controversy. It has its place, just as ROK does.

  4. I’ve never read their material but I can tell just from looking at the articles that the content is all PC drivel I can get from numerous other sources.

  5. Why women give bad dating advice:
    She want’s you to ‘get it’ on your own, without having to be told how. That initiative and the experience needed to have had developed it makes you a Man worth competing for. Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant. Overtly relating this to a guy entirely defeats his credibility as a genuinely dominant male. The guy she wants to fuck is dominant because that’s ‘the way he is’ instead of who she had to tell him to be.

    1. To completely disregard a woman’s advice is moronic and you’re winding yourself into a logical contradiction. Of course a woman’s take on manhood comes with many qualifications, but you’re saying you (a man) know what a woman wants but a woman has no ability to know what she wants

      1. Here in lies the issue, Art of Manliness is a complete joke of a site correctly described by the author a site built for non-masculine men. I have been saying this about this site for years, I am glad other men finally feel this way. I have always said that having a women be the co-writer/author is the biggest tell. Mitt Romney lost for a reason, his hokus pokus Joseph Smith cult beliefs are not shared with the majority of Americans.
        c2w, your a simp, a loser, quit posting here. This place isn’t for you. Go to Walmart and shop for pajamas with your GF.
        Whats telling here is how many supposed men here are so up in arms about this article. These are the same pale skinny nerds I see in the gym trying to use a squat rack, who read a how to squat article in Art of Manliness.

        1. And when you’re 65, pot-bellied, and subsisting on SSI, because your job as a low-income bouncer didn’t offer you pension – the last thing you’re going to wish is on your deathbed is that you had squatted more weight, lmao

        2. The thing is, AOM website is doing something pretty different than what seems to be done here… Brett and Kate McKay are offering some solution for those who feel inadequate whilst not thrashing other people’s websites.
          See? It’s about their approach and attitude. AOM offers a solution, ROK is only all about “how good it is to be me”. You guys are all set, you do not need a website full of great advices, for you are already pretty confident. I think you are smart enough to get the picture.
          They probably do not have anything to offer your readers here, but you do NOT have anything to offer to their readers as well. So, it seems to be a tie and nothing to argue about.
          Besides, your site seems to sum up pretty well what kind of an agenda you guys have, mingling male universe oriented articles with politics, macho militancy and pro NRA agenda.
          Don’t take me wrong ( except for the fact that it’s all you seem to do here, to take people wrongly ) but that makes your target public veeeery narrow, huh? While Brett’s target, veeeery wide. You can see that from the hugely varied nationalities of people participating in their online community.
          Here at ROK, I can see only white empowered Americans, pushing their “start and stripes” motto, holding a riffle, voting for Trump, with a can of beer, wearing a wife beater, whenever I try to picture the kind of men who read your website. You see?
          You are the one trying to diminish what it means to be manly, as you are missing not only the rest of the entire world’s male population, but you are also missing other cultures, races, political backgrounds of your own country, how ugly is that?
          So, before trying to be the detainer of what it means to be manly, you should run a little recheck of the values you are trying to advocate here, for as a non American, non pro NRA, non pro Trump ( as obviously I get to vote for a different stack of crooks here in Brazil ), I can relate to absolutely nothing posted on your website.
          You should lower either your standards of detaining the manly grail or your statement at this post, either one of them is clashing.
          I came here to this discussion while looking for similar to AOM websites. I lingered a while, “thumbing” through your articles until I got the picture of what you have been offering here. Now I’m living, as you certainly do NOT have anything to offer to anybody else other than your right-winged republican American narrow minded lot.
          peace out!

      2. If listening to them and getting the answer was all we had to do, we wouldn’t be here. Imagine that.
        Also I am willing to bet if you were to ask an ex, a sister, a mother, and grand mother (if any are applicable) “What should I do on a date?” you will get advice that’s in-congruent with what works and she will stop calling/texting all together. This is 1 of many reasons we ignore a woman’s advice in the field of dating and being something they can never be: A Man.

      3. c2w, of course women know what they want, they just wont tell you. It’s so obvious. If you want to catch a fish, ask the fisherman how to do it, not the fish. The fish doesnt wanna get caught.

  6. excellent. this is as poetic as it is hilarious: “neutered version of masculinity that would appeal only to pot-bellied, middle-aged keyboard jockeys.”

  7. When I first saw you saying that one of the site’s founders was a woman I was immediately thinking: “You cannot learn how to be a man from a woman.” And then you took the words out of my head and put them down.

  8. Come on, Quintus. This is the equivalent of a “slow news day” piece in the MSM.
    Brett makes no secret about being a Mormon (and, no, I am not one), but I don’t see what difference that makes in his advice. It’s most assuredly not a “game” blog, and there’s a lot of posts I simply pass over from lack of interest, but there is a treasure trove of useful examples of manliness from the past, which readers of this blog would do well to embrace in order to live contrary to our feminism-poisoned culture.
    There are plenty of worthwhile blogs for guys whose aim is to score with 8’s and 9’s on the reg. “AOM offers zero advice on the topic of recreational sex.” Neither do Dalrock and Alpha Game. Are they next on your hit list? Are you going to trash MMSM because Athol Kay’s wife contributes to it as well.
    Stop with the pussy talk about Brett “wanting to take away your bitterness.” AOM is a decidedly tamer site, but we in the sphere need to stop attacking those whose agenda does not dovetail 100% with our own.

      1. Yep. ROK can’t be everything to everyone right from the word go. To a lot of blokes fresh on the scene, it’s just too abrasive. AOM can be a good starting point for others, who then may be better placed to digest some of the info on ROK after some time.

        1. Very true, I am one of those men whose starting point was AoM, albeit 5 yrs ago. Brett provided me with an essential reading list, primers on manly skills (how to sharpen a knife, how to straight razor shave, etc…), and introduced me to other like minded individuals that eventually lead me here.

    1. Tame.
      Yeah, thats what men need to be. Tamer.
      Fucking manginas calling themselves masculine.

      1. I can see that an insufficient, or perhaps even defective, socialization process has led you to believe that cursing adds power to language… and you call yourself masculine.

    2. Absolutely spot on. These two sites need to complement each other. The enemies are feminism and the gradual loss of masculinity. So no need to piss each other, lads.

  9. Never even hears of this website. Would have more enjoyed Maxim being taken down as Cosmo rebranded for men with little to no content differences.

  10. AoM is a site I was initially drawn to, aesthetically, and the nascent content was worth perusing but since it ardently adheres to its house style I have found it too ‘warm and fuzzy’. Outmoded in the least.
    I suppose it serves its purpose. I prefer my masculinity with a little more teeth.

  11. Hey now the Art of Manliness is an EXCELLENT resource for some things.
    There i learned how to iron my clothes (dress shirts, pants, etc).
    I also learned to tie some tie necktie’s knots and many more useful things.
    They have some great practical articles for the independent man. Basic stuff like cooking, washing and so on. Why is that important? The moment you start depending wholly on a woman for a need and are unable to perform it well yourself, she gains the upper hand over you.
    A real man should be able to take care of his basic needs (cleaning, clothing, eating etc.) perfectly fine. And the Art of Manliness is a great starting resource for that ( not perfect or comprehensive, but still useful ).
    A wise man picks the best from everywhere. Just like all articles here are not great (and some are frankly awful) ReturnOfKings is useful to men with working head on their shoulders. Pick and eat just the ripened strawberries, not the whole plant with the leaves and roots, so to speak.

    1. “There i learned how to iron my clothes (dress shirts, pants, etc).
      I also learned to tie some tie necktie’s knots and many more useful things.”
      Because you don’t have parents.

      1. That’s the point. Many men weren’t raised well. Hence the need for the dissemination of such practical information.

        1. Because he is spot on? What kind of idiot single dude doesnt already know how to fucking iron his own clothes, sew a button etc??
          Fucking tard.

    2. 90% of what you mentioned, I learned from another man at church or by practicing on my own. Now if AoM were only a collection of things a man should know, then I’d give them another go.

  12. While I agree with the lack of strength behind some of the aom articles, I’d personally like to see more “how to..” articles here, because men to need to be constantly pursuing new skills, not merely complaining about a situation without offering solutions.

  13. This made me chuckle:
    “We need struggle, combat, stress, anxiety, bitterness, and anguish.
    These things define us. They create us, and make us who we are.
    Yet Kate and Brett want to take those things away from me, and reduce
    me to a neutered goody-two-shoes, like them. Well, guess what, Kate
    and Brett. You can’t control me. You aren’t going to corral me into
    your safe, goody-two-shoes world. I’d prefer to whip out my tomahawk
    and take a few scalps. That’s me.”
    Sounds like a pubescent teenager to me.

      1. So he gets banned ‘ cause you feel a bit butt-hurt? Where’s the “pain, suffering and anguish? You should ban yourself for being such a fuckin’ cunt.

    1. “Whoever told you that you could work with men? You fairy. You company man.”
      Glengarry Glen Ross is essential viewing, even if you’re not in sales.

      1. amazing. have you heard the prank calls in which they use pacino’s voice from that scene to call random unsuspecting people?
        this one is hilarious:

  14. One of your finest articles Quintus! “The Art of Manliness” rubbed me the wrong way also. There’s nothing politically correct about being a man, and that site screams PC and safe to the core. There’s something you wrote which really got my attention and it was this, “deep down, in her innermost heart, the most secret and cherished desire of every woman is to see a man dethroned, and rolled in the muck. She’ll never admit this, of course.” Nothing fascinates me more about monotheistic religions other than their extreme distrust of women. There’s hardly a society in history that didn’t possess a distrust of women and their instincts, albeit pagan or monotheistic. Women tend to be in most fables, myths and religions, responsible for some type of “downfall.” Whether it’s Eve’s Apple or Pandora’s Box, men have always known that women possess the ability to destroy, to cause our fall, to emasculate us, and to ruin everything we’ve built. It’s always hilarious how these new liberal and emasculated Christians try and juxtapose themselves to Islam, when in the very first book in the Bible, the Book of Genesis, God told man to control women, basically keep them in check, a little above a slave. Whether God or man wrote this, this concept comes from some deeper understanding on the nature of women and their propensity to destroy.
    A woman’s sexuality has always been maligned because she can destroy with it. A man may venture out with other women, but if he is committed to his home, progeny, wife and their advancement in life, then nothing can take him away from it. Most men of old, ventured out but only to quell their sexual impulses and no more. A man has to work for sex no matter if he is a handsome chap or detestable. A woman can nearly give sex away, game is an anomaly to women, which can almost explain their lack of character and humor. They don’t need it. If a woman is unfaithful, this is almost a sure sign she has “committed herself to the other man, and has positioned herself against her home, children and husband (excellently captured in Tolstoy’s “Anna Karenina”). Tolstoy was warning us (contrary to the modern popularization of the licentious behavior of “Anna Karenina),” that this is what happens when you let the reins up on women, when you are too merciful, and too liberal. This is your future under female-liberation, crushed homes, and crushed nations. Anna Karenina will not only roll herself under the weight of the train of progress (that was the meaning of the train) but she’ll roll civilization under it too. There’s something of Biblical proportions about women, that does make want to believe in the Biblical malevolence of the feminine impulse despite my “enlightened liberal education” on evolution. The Western man has been dethroned and sites like AoM are a joke. Your manhood is not defined by the fucking shaving cream you use but how you live your life. Enjoy this prophetic German cartoon (I speak German and love the culture) from 1901 that depicts the downfall of Christianity and the release of evil forces upon the world. This how the Western female seeks to dethrone all men.

    1. An old school Catholic priest I know likes to joke that God was angry with Adam and punished him for listening to his wife.

    2. I feel the same way about AoM, I got some nice tips on how to roll-up sleeves among other things, aside from that a pretty white bread lame site.
      Good point on Christianity; in my opinion Christianity is Western Culture without it we’re nothing brother!
      Proverbs 31:
      10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
      Proverbs 3:
      5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;
      and lean not unto thine own understanding.
      6 In all thy ways acknowledge him,
      and he shall direct thy paths.
      7 Be not wise in thine own eyes:
      fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

      1. “in my opinion Christianity is Western Culture without it we’re nothing man!”
        Does that mean I should start memorizing the Socratic Dialogues, just in case your match fingers start getting itchy again?
        A book of Oriental philosophy.

        1. Bullshit dude! you can shove Buddha, Lao tsu and all those other devils up your ass fagot!!! And while you’re at it eat the Republic.
          My God, my Lord, my Culture!
          I studied and practiced yoga and meditation for many years with actual gurus; Kriya Yoga Temple with Goswami Kriyananda direct student of Paramahansa Yoganada. Have memorized the Toa Te Ching, Bhagavad gita and all the eastern hipster bullshit you can imagine.
          I know all my chakras and have felt the prana shoot up and Through the top of head. I have reached the ultimate state; being one with the universe all mental activity stopped: its like fucking playing Jazz with some of the best, motherfucker. (Eb Harmonic minor over a Bb713 chord try it its hip, watch the Gb though its a devil)
          And guest what? you don’t go anywhere.
          Funny; to a man/women all those SWPL hipsters in those classes were faking it they didn’t feel it, they couldn’t do it!
          Revelation 5-5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
          Revelation 6-8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
          9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
          10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
          11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
          12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
          13 and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
          14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
          15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
          16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
          17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

        2. That’s the way, Brother. Let the spirit of the Lord move within you and show the world what a true Christian looks like.

        3. As the Zen parable goes: how do you expect your cup to be filled, if you do not first empty it?

        4. Like I told you Gamma Boy:
          I’m a soldier of the Apocalypses! Motherfucker!

        5. Question: When you use the word “devils” to describe eastern philosophers, is it because they make you insecure in your own faith?
          P.S. yes I am intentionally being a smarmy dick in case you were wondering.

        6. Bullshit Dude! Careful with that little thing hipster boy.
          I know a lot more about Eastern mysticism than you might think. Read all the good books.
          Did you know Rudyard Kipling was a fag? hmmmm Kim.
          Here’s some more bullshit for you Comrade Scientist:
          Tao Te Ching:
          50The Master gives himself up
          to whatever the moment brings.
          He knows that he is going to die,
          and he has nothing left to hold on to:
          no illusions in his mind,
          no resistances in his body.
          He doesn’t think about his actions;
          they flow from the core of his being.
          He holds nothing back from life;
          therefore he is ready for death,
          as a man is ready for sleep
          after a good day’s work.
          Put that in your bowl and smoke it SWPL Guru Boy, and go burn in hell for all I care. Now that was my smarmy remark.
          If you’re a China Man well than that’s ok for you Ming.
          But I’m a white man and my Culture is Christianity.
          Now here’s the real deal Neal:
          Psalm 52-1 Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.
          2 Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs;
          like a sharp razor, working deceitfully.
          3 Thou lovest evil more than good;
          and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.
          4 Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful
          5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever,
          he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah.
          6 The righteous also shall see, and fear,
          and shall laugh at him:
          7 lo, this is the man that made
          not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness.
          8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of
          God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
          9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast
          done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

        7. He apparently did not catch the direction of my own smarmy dickosity.
          Proverbs is purported to a be collection of the wisdom of Solomon.
          Solomon was . . . an Eastern philosopher.
          He has hoisted his own faith by his own petard.

        8. I never said I practiced or followed any form of Eastern Philosophy. Yet my question only arouses you resort to sophomoric name calling and knee jerk responses consisting of bibllical quotes and irrelevant facts. I’m not saying this to be insulting, it’s a great thing to know about your cultural/religious heritage and I say that as someone whose motherland was also fucked over by communism, but “mano-a-mano” your responses come off like that kid who starts uncontrollably sobbing when he gets angry.

        9. you don’t get it bro!
          I got nothing to prove to you or any other man, but I will defend my culture and my religion to the death! When you loose God you loose everything.
          move on kid nothing more to see here-

        10. Yo papa so retarded he took a shit in a mop bucket and complained about something biting his balls when he tried flushing.

        11. Yeah well:
          Yo momma so stupid, she thought, “Wu Tang” was an African orange drink

        12. You’re such a faggot that when you get fucked in the ass and the dude who’s ramming you goes for the reach around, you already got a hard on.

    3. some of those old prophets knew something deep, but they didn’t know why. they made books and cartoons to warn everyone, but they didn’t articulate the cause or mechanistic sequence. and so they came across as indistinguishable from the rants of righteous-bible-citing nuts, correctly cursed to be discarded by history for being useless. ROK and AOM alike seek to differentiate themselves from such blind parots who spout sometimes-truths. AOM does this by simply avoiding the angst, while ROK does this by keeping the motive and completing the story. i’ll side with ROK over AOM, and i’ll side with AOM over your cartoons. stop posting them.

  15. there are occasionally some practical articles that demonstrate skills or experimenting with testosterone and food, but the majority of it is nostalgia and flanders.
    its a distraction from realtalk; truth filtered.

  16. Whenever I hear some – any – female lecture about what she thinks a man **should** say, think or do….. I now have it down to a single stock response:
    “What would you know about being a (real) man? You’re a western female. What would you even know about being… HUMAN.”
    Boom. Roasted.
    It’s all in the delivery. Enjoy.

    1. I learned a lot about how a man should relate to women, from women, but with the caveat that these women had a cynical view of other women. They didn’t hate their fellow sex but they distrusted them from experience and also acknowledged their own personal flaws. A man giving advice to a woman would also need to be honest about his flaws and the dishonesty of his gender. This doesn’t mean being hateful but rather honest.
      If you want to be enraged or amused, depending upon your humor quotient, check out The Millionaire Matchmaker starring a matchmaker whose an old single woman, used to be bisexual, who openly regards men as walking wallets and treats even handsome millionaires like they’re disposable. Consequently, few actual handsome millionaires put themselves in her hands but rather, and I don’t make this up, heroin addicted media industry insiders, dorky wall street executives, and silicon valley nerds. These poor men are then neutered (told they can’t have sex outside of “monogamy”) and sent to beg for love from women by showering them with gifts.

      1. I swear that hideous and foul beast “Patti Stanger” (the ugly bitch that runs the show) is all that I despise in the Western woman. I don’t know who’s worse, her or Hillary Clinton. The men who subject themselves to that masochistic torture, deserve it. That show is a lottery, a lottery a stealing a man’s wealth and assets. The show could be called “Golddigger’s lottery.” A lot of women play the lottery in this country and it’s called “alimony.”

        1. Oh Tom, I couldn’t watch past one minute. My soul boils with anger and vengeance whenever I hear this ogre. The part that kills is me is “even women in Corporate America want men to still treat them.” So they can take our jobs through misandric laws while doing less of the work, take time off if they decide to pop out a few bastards, confine us to lower paying positions and then demand we pay. When does the fucking backlash start already!?

        2. The backlash starts when you become your own boss. When you put yourself in a position where no woman can touch you. When you simply say “no”. No explanation. No excuse. Just “no”. And you refuse to hire or work with women. You can start by REFUSING TO TALK TO WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE.
          Make it your MO. “I’m sorry I don’t speak to women at work about anything other than work. Ever.”
          When she says “lolwut?” you repeat it loud and clear for her and others to hear it. “I . Don’t . Speak . To . Women . At . Work . About . Anything . Other . Than . Work. Every time you talk about something other than work you lose money for the company. Now get back to work.”
          Said with a totally neutral expression, this comes as such a SSSSSLLLLLLLLAAAP across a woman’s face that they have absolutely no fucking idea how to respond. When done properly, you get a promotion for that…. and she gets canned.
          A penny saved is a woman fired.

        3. I coined two phrases that capture the essence of modern man’s attitudes vis-a-vis corporate females.
          1. A man wants a wife, not a co-worker.
          2. I got a wife at home. I don’t need one on the job.
          And I’m just giving it away. These broads are making a living at it.

        4. What’s especially offensive is her “4 to 1” rule where a woman only does something nice for a man 1 out of 4 times so “she” feels special. But even Stanger concedes that there’s a hell of a lot more (millionaire) men than pretty golddigging women.
          What I LIKED is that Stanger expressed indignation that a lot of women were complaining that men weren’t living up to the “gentleman” role anymore as it suits the women where after she gets done with her high paying hobby job, then she should relax and have him take care of her. Hmmm, wait a minute… isn’t a traditional relationship supposed to be that after a MAN gets home from his job to pay bills for HIM to relax and enjoy being taken care of?

        5. It’s a hard feat, being more annoying than Joy Behar. I pity the man that sleeps next to that sweaty thing and sees the sunlight shine through the blinds and onto her makeup-less face in the morning.

        6. I have two partnerships, two companies with (6) good men I work well with. I have been through some very tough times with these dudes and they’re tried and tested I can trust them; not a one is a snake. All of them are players, well versed in the dark-arts, each bring their own special talent to the mix and everyone is an Alpha. Each company is made up of three partners each 33% split – one (a real estate joint venture) the other (in the auto industry) (like three kings of Sparta) all partners are at arms length transactions with non circumvents and non disclosures signed. We all loose or win together.
          Everyone is in agreement no fucking bitches in the companies unless they’re under 23 years old hot and our personal secretaries; we like good scenery in the office not just house plants if you get my meaning!
          We also have agreements to off-set any fucking wify from cutting in on our business.
          Don’t work for or with a fucking bitch unless she works for you and the tits and ass rock!!! Just take it back guys work for yourself, form alliances and kick ass!!!

  17. Meh. Where this all gets stupid is where game becomes a theory of everything. It’s useful. And because of the extent to which it flies in the face of the current accepted narrative it’s a fairly profound discovery for those who are under 40 and have not yet heard of it. But at the end of the day, it’s a secondary part of life. Plenty of celibate men throughout history have have set standards of manliness by way of cultural significance and historical impact, that the most seasoned gamers will probably never match.

  18. so true, the most obvious one is “just be a nice guy and girls…. i don’t need to spell this one out for anyone, i can’t actually recall any really useful advice given on game to me from a girl in my life obviously ( well at least none literall, that one wouldn’t would need to decrypt)…
    There is ONE though that i have burned into my head like hot iron, especially after reading ROK,
    while waiting for her husband to come home, a female cousin told me;
    “Always make sure you marry a girl who loves you more than you love her”
    (in the same conversation she said; ” the only thing he was ever on time for was his wedding”,

  19. AoM is a very light and tamed gateway to the manosphere. I don’t see what is so hateful about it. It’s like a website your gradfather would show you. It has useful general skill articles and the artwork is also pretty good. Aom is quite popular and I am sure many people here today started there.

  20. This whole article strikes me as kind of weak. I’m certainly willing to accept that there are sites out there that can be said to be “poisoning the concept of masculinity.” The most obvious of these would be the Good Men Project, which is basically self parody at this point. But you haven’t proved the case that AoM is one of them.
    You’ve dissed the author’s religion, you’ve dissed the guy’s tone, you’ve complained that he doesn’t cover recreational sex. You say he’s coming from a different place than the authors here, that he’s not raw or dispossessed like we are. These are all fair complaints, but in an article with over a thousand words, I don’t see a single example of bad advice he’s given. If he’s that bad, can’t you point to something specific he’s said that you don’t like?
    I’m not a regular reader of AoM, because it is a little tame for my taste, and it deals with a lot of topics that don’t really apply to me. So as I wrote this comment I flipped over to its front page to see what it’s talking about lately. I see things topics like how to wear a tuxedo, how to avoid injuries when working out, and how to manage your time. There’s posts on rock climbing and survivalist skills. The majority of these could show up on the front page of RoK and nobody would bat an eye.
    Now it’s certainly possible that I’m missing something, and the guy is a huge mangina and it’s simply not obvious from just looking at the first page. But if that’s true, you haven’t successfully shown it.

  21. I have AoM in my tabs; this article just confirms my impression. Some useful advices for some superficial things, like beard trimming or moustache styling, but the rest is pretty mediocre, way too soft and dull as pointed out when it comes to lifestyle, morale and such.

    1. “pretty mediocre”, call me judgmental and paranoid if you will, but it is (unintentional or intentional eitherways), a way to steer us men who may get some vapidly derived idea that an ROK article has to offer, back into the mainstream.
      it’s a poisonous freebie for men.

  22. This article has the whiff of 9th grade girls sniping about each other. Not RoK’s finest hour.

  23. I like some of their how to articles and think they’ve done a few good profiles on various historical figures. Also, the site has a decent reading list.
    However, I agree with the consensus that the site doles out horrible dating advice.
    It’s always been my general understanding that the founders were religious, they’ve mentioned it on there before, and their advice on dating and relationships reflects that.
    With that said I don’t believe that AoM is ruining masculinity. Most of the articles are just general interest guy stuff. How to use a BBQ grill, how to avoid injuries. Sans the relationship advice, most of the site’s posts could have shown up on here too.
    I also don’t fully agree with the idea that every site has to be “hard” or “raw.” While conflict keeps things interesting, there is a point where it just becomes stupid.

  24. AOM routinely deletes any comment I make, regardless of how neutered or safe it is. They used to approve my comments back in 2010ish, but at some point they started holding my comments for moderation, then outright deleting them. I toned my content down, I always agreed with the authors, and my comments were still deleted. They put me on a black last, lest someone leave their blog and find mine.

    1. it’s great that you point this out rémy, i don’t know anything about it,, but instinctively at first sight, the website looks terrible , that doesn’t sound like a site which allows men to have a conversation in a civilized way and disagree with each other’s opinion, without whining about them, or deleting them as you pointed out like sneaky lil fags.
      i was surprised to see ROK really break the matrix of PC (wich , when truthmosis released the article about “dating a girl with an eating disorder”, i found the title to suggest a gross pointless content, but i didn’t bother reading it or judging it, i stayed neutral
      but i learned to like it, it was so revealing about how desperately agressive some women are becoming, copying and pasting each other’s insults, and how many people litterally hate free speech with a passion

    2. Remy it was one of your comments on an AoM article a few years back that led me to your old site, then Roosh, then Heartiste, etc. AoM is indeed a starting point for men that want to continue down that path.

  25. “”No woman can offer a man advice on how to be a man. “”
    Sounds like the feminists who claim you can’t deny real women have curves.

  26. Shots fired!
    In seriousness, I noticed them a while back but never seriously perused their archives for some reason. You shed light on why.
    While I don’t personally have a problem with AoM per say, I agree with your overall sentiment.

  27. There is nothing manly about AoM. Some useful articles here and there but nothing that speaks to or for Men. I agree with the Aurthor, A woman can never tell a man about being a man.

  28. I actually like reading both sites, that way i get a nice combo of opinions. I agree that AOM is a bit tame. But on the other hand, i’m not always as bitter as ROK. Might i dare say that being a man is also about finding some balance in the input you choose. Trying to walk a straight line. I don’t want to be poisoned by bitterness just as much as i can’t stand nicey nicey campfire crap. So i balance the two.

  29. AoM creators are fucking brilliant. You’re absolutely right. The site, and it’s advice/content is pure garbage. It’s wife-approved nonsense. However, from a marketing standpoint, the couple knew exactly what they were doing. And I’ll bet they make halfway decent money too. They have a very specific target market (middle-aged do-gooder married men with stable INCOME) and that market probably generates a good bit of traffic and sales.

  30. whats next QC, writing a token article about how lindy west likes oreos? your worst offering to date.
    they have an article on anti-fragility that is better than anything i’ve read here on the subject. nothing should be taken as gospel and no man should be followed as messiah.
    if you are unable to discern knowledge from a variety of sources under a critical lens without getting butthext about it, somebody else is coming up in the game while you’re regressing.

      1. roosh tried an incoherent take on the same book i’m talking about, so thankfully my “”anti-fagility”” articles can be found at rok
        shout out to QC for upvoting this shill instead of rebuking my claim, a testament to his logical faculties.

  31. My sides = in space
    AoM is fairly commercial and sterile, kinda like the Boy Scouts. However, what you expect of them in terms of feels and alphadom sounds pretty grandiose even for the manosphere. Unless you’re trolling, then it makes sense. You’re trolling them, right?
    I am going to play devil’s advocate and point out that they did have a great series on grilling burgers and steaks, and I think being able to grill a piece of meat well and do a bunch of other things well says far more about masculinity than serial one night stands and avoiding the inevitable rape call the morning after. Just saying. I still <3 u RoK

  32. I don’t know why you dedicated an article to attacking a site that is still more beneficial to the average man and celebrates masculinity (rare enough as it is) in a healthy fashion, than most advice offered to men and boys in the mainstream. I guess it’s a revenue war?

  33. Tame though AoM may seem compared to ‘official’ manosphere blogs, it does offer a TON of instruction on various skills which are useful for being a capable adult. And isn’t capability a core principle of manhood?
    I gravitate toward the angry takedowns of feminism myself, but I respect anyone that wants to put good information on life skills (even beyond how to get laid) into the mix.

  34. AoM was one of the first sites I came across in the Manosphere, the others being The Player at AskMen and the Roosh forum. Then I came across Bold and Determined and realized just how…safe AoM is. It’s not a bad site — they have some really good pieces on there — but I feel it’s like a starting point rather than a final destination. But it is indeed true that no woman can tell a man how to be a man. BOD will always be the top “manosphere” blog in my mind, and its influences are apparent all over the manosphere, even on this blog.

  35. I don’t think bitterness is ever a good thing. It’s what I hate most about the manosphere.

    1. Indeed. It’s normal to be bitter when you first swallow the red pill and you realize that all the things you thought were true about women are lies. But you shouldn’t remain bitter and cynical. Alphas aren’t bitter. They’re relaxed and they keep things casual. They have a positive outlook on life

      1. The alphas here have a funny way of acting “relaxed” by calling other people “cunts” and whatnot.

      1. You would make an excellent pitfighting dog, just a lot of raw rage, but little good for anything else.

  36. I like this article, Quintius, but thought it only fair to peruse AOM to first before reading your critique.
    I took a look at some of the exercise and men’s grooming posts (dumb-bell workouts and running injury prevention, as well as how to choose and wear black-tie evening wear).
    It seems that AOM is a lifestyle site (a type of male equivalent to Marie-Claire) – innocuous but neither particularly informative nor thought-provoking.
    The comments often appeared to have more factual content than the posts.
    So, innocuous and unchallenging.

  37. I’ve never really had strong feelings about a website. I visit the ones that are useful and avoid the ones that aren’t. But your point is well-made, AoM is not the same site as RoK. If it were they would probably merge or something.

  38. There is more to being a man than banging women. AoM is not poisoning the concept of masculinity, it is providing some practical advice for simpler things that many men have forgotten due to being raised by women.
    The fact is, we don’t know the extend of Brett’s wife’s contributions to the site. Not everyone is going to write about the perils of marriage and divorce or write high-brow articles on female attraction. Sometimes we just want to see alternative ways to shave.

    1. How fucking gay dude. “How to shave”?
      How to use a BBQ grill?
      WTF, are you serious?
      What pussified men we have become when I read all you losers supporting more gay-ass commercialized mother-approved BULLSHIT.

  39. Art of Manliness turned me off, because it advises things like, “Find a good barber. Use a shaving brush. Visit a haberdashery and buy a nice hat. A REAL man wears one!”
    If discussing the positives of Eisenhower’s presidency helps get you pumped for gaming women, you’ll love that site.

  40. Just one glance at the mainpage, graphics, and overall theme of the content says it all: this is just a worthless shallow-content site cashing in on this ever-so hip trend of early-mid 20th-century retro revival. This is for all those wannabe’s and hipster fags who rock 1950’s dad haircuts, suspenders and bowties semi-ironically, oversized black frame glasses, and beards and/or mustaches. There has been this big popculture trend over the past 5 years or so where middle-class Western white youth has identified the nuclear family era man as the quintessential example of masculinity.
    that may not be a bad thing… but they only mimic how the looked and dressed. Not how they acted. Popculture failure per the usual. Thanks America. Fuck that site. Kings we.

  41. I find AoM has the odd useful thing or links to something
    But overall it is somewhat Mormon.

  42. You know, I’d have to agree. There is nothing masculine about The Art of Manliness it’s a suck hole for the politically neutered male.

  43. I started getting into men’s style specifically last summer with Antonio Centeno and Aaron Marino. After watching their videos about dressing nicer and making myself better for myself, I had gone to the AOM web site. I agree that it is pretty neutral but it did offer me some good ideas of ways to better myself. I was in an LTR at the time so didn’t look at the dating advices (guess I dodged a bullet), but it did help me find TRP on Reddit after I was single again. I think it’s a worthwhile site to help people like myself improve other qualities before they unplug and realize the true situation, but I agree that there needs to be a way to Segway from AOM to TRP a bit faster.

  44. Art of Manliness has cool articles several topics like shaving, clothing, cooking meat…etc but it really isn’t about manhood per say, it’s more about being a “gentleman.”
    When it comes to raw masculinity, you go to Jack Donovan and his associates.
    Roosh should delete this site, it’s filled with whiners who spent most of the time complaining about how unfair the world is.

    1. Looks like mormon fag and mormon cunt wife from Art Of Fagliness called up all the mangina fags they know to troll RoK.

  45. If the McKay’s are Mormon, they likely feel intense social pressure to keep their site sanitized and G-rated. So, instead of thinking of their site as Disney-esque, think of it as manosphere for Mormons.

  46. Art Of Mannliness used to be a better site years ago, but for marketability purposes probably started going a more politically correct route and dissemenating nonesensical information to survive. This is very much like when ROK allows a sponsor that promotes online personals when anyone with any brain cells left or has any kind of awareness would know better then to indulge in that shit.

  47. “I want to be very clear here that I would never criticize anyone solely on the basis of their background, faith, or ethnicity. It makes no difference to me what someone’s background is.”
    What a liberal pussy statement that is, have some fucking balls. Man up.

      1. Yes censor the debate!
        Use the lessons you learned on feminist blogs!
        Let your hate flow through you, feed your anger. Only your butthurt can silence people who disagree with you.

  48. What does drinking alcohol or caffeine or smoking have to do with pursuit of women? If you can’t do it without being drunk, having nasty ass stinky breath or buzzed up on coffee or whatever then how can you pretend it’s YOU and not the substances doing the work.

    1. Spoken like a true female (or mangina).
      If you have to ask a question like that you are on the wrong website idiot.

  49. I don’t like “The Art of Manliness” because it feels like I’m reading a boy scout handbook for adult males.
    This site (and other PUA/”game” themed sites) however, is hardly any better, with its male hierarchy, alpha-beta-omega etc crap and incessant trolling with no coherent aim other than amassing negative attention.

  50. Who would have thought a review of a blog on another blog would generate 161 comments and counting….
    Anyway, I would not give AoM a burning defense, but it does have some decent content. The dating stuff is lame and beta, but on dress they are right on and same with some of the philosophy and man self improvement. It’s target is mainly younger Christian, traditional men. Let’s face it that demographic is always going to have some “pussy on pedestal” in them. I would much rather a young man read AoM the the Huffington Post to get his life influence. AoM serves a purpose just as ROK serves another purpose.

  51. Clothes and shoes. Clothes and shoes, and how to please a woman. I can tolerate it from admitted PUAs, but reducing manliness to socks and cufflinks? Next!

  52. AOM isn’t much more to me than that first beer as a teenager, whereas a RoK/Roissy is the first go-round with everclear or 151. Truth be told, I found AOM when I was looking for extra information on suit construction. Doesn’t strike me as a manosphere staple by any stretch

  53. I peruse AoM from time to time and the problem I find is that the writer’s are superficially trying to capture the “masculine attributes” without the ethos of masculinity. So what you wind up with is nostalgic drivel that just just perpetuates the submissive modern metro-sexual archetype, just with a costume of Marlon Brando from A Streetcar named Desire. Don’t wear a hat, shave with a DE razor, and smoke cigars because “that’s what men do”, wear a hat because you fucking love hats, fucking love a good shave, or fucking love good tobacco.
    They do have some nice photos though.

  54. How can any man learn how to be a man in a G rated world? I have many
    Mormon friends and I love them to death, they are kind hearted, caring, loyal
    etc. but the last thing I would consider them is manly; they are
    manchilds; going to boy and girl dances in their 20’s, acting like
    juvenile boys. Mormonism neuters men of their masculinity.They are the ultimate beta provider and we all know how far that get you in life these days.

  55. There are plenty writers here on this site who are happy to tell women how to be feminine, so I don’t buy that a woman cannot tell a man how to be masculine. Let the writing speak for itself. Meritocracy is always best.

  56. I actually found this site through the AOM, back when I was fully blue. I was on a heavily beta-dominated videogaming forum, when a fellow convert (angel of masculinity) started doing OT threads on the subject of manhood. He linked a few articles from AOM, which I thought were really cool. I loved the art style, 50’s references, and the idea of becoming stronger and better. A lot of the articles on AOM are incredibly useful, and very similar to the personal improvement you can find on ROK. Those were, in a sense, arguably the first red pill articles I had ever read. One day some weeks later, he posted a link to a ROK article, which was an early Roosh post. It was some rather tame, in retrospect, article about dating. But it BLEW my fucking mind at the time…I was offended by what Roosh said. I mean, I honestly hated him and my first reaction was to never come back to the site. But part of me knew it had to be true. It was thrilling, in a visceral way. The philosophical honesty struck a nerd cord with me, too. To just come out and say what no one else would dare say about the chosen gender, about the “goddesses” we all have to suck up to and take shit from. I’ve been addicted ever sense, and my attitudes about women have been flipped upside down. I will never get married, and probably never even engage in an LTR with a modernized girl. Thanks to ROK, I won’t have to suffer a torturous divorce. But I never would have found ROK, if it weren’t for my initial trust in that fellow nerd. And that initial trust was developed because he FIRST posted an article from AOM. AOM effectively lent ROK credibility.
    I’m not saying that “Tomahawk flailing all the way” isn’t necessarily the
    best strat. Maybe I’m a hopeless faggot anyway despite being here. But
    you might take some food for thought from my story, my 2 pents.
    Also Quintus I love EVERY article you’ve written thus far, you are probably
    my favorite writer on here due to your eloquent style. But I can’t agree with those post, unfortunately.

  57. This sounds like RoK bashing another website for not being RoK.
    I see mansophere as a conglomeration of different approaches and styles and I am glad for this rich variety. I like RoK for what it is but I also like to take a break from its aggressiveness, cortisol inducing negativity (which is justified, but tiresome) and troll articles. AoM provides such a relief by temporary bringing me in my mind back to an era when the world was all right and being a man didn’t have include holding negativity against women, academia, government, media and everything else. Every man must sometimes take a break from this corrupted reality and focus on simple self development filled with positivity and vigor, every man must hold an image of a manly utopia in his heart,even if seemingly out dated and naive appearing, so that his conscious and unconscious actions would contribute to bringing this kingdom of manly heaven to earth. He must also not neglect current corrupt reality and this is what RoK helps him to do. Therefore both sites are useful for a smart man. A smart man will filter the good advice from the womanly dross.
    Everything has its pros and cons and judging something for a different approach and style is not too useful.
    RoK should beware not to become entitled into thinking of themselves as of the sole king of Manosphere with rights to judge others. RoK is one of the best sites but it must continue to earn this position by providing quality content not entitle themselves to this position by bashing others.

  58. Any idea which threatens the establishment or contradicts whatever rubbish the establishment promulgates, will be countered. In a world where a supposed right to “freedom of expression” exists, thugs with rubber hoses are not an option.
    “Red Pill” manosphere is a threat to the establishment as it reverts the demoralization of western (white) men and mends the relationship between the sexes, and it is successful at this. The countering comes in the form of propaganda which promotes infiltration, subversion, gate-keeping, ridiculing, demonization, delegitimization and finally suppression by law of such “dangerous” ideas.
    The field of discourse established by the dissenters is finally taken over by apparatschiks propagating castrated and watered-down versions of whatever ideas or ideals the dissenters propagated.
    Examples of this process would be said website and possibly avfm. Pertaining “free press” I see HuffPo and TheGuardian as examples of this process.
    It’s business as usual for any media outfit. Live with it and deal with it.

    1. Ha ha, right on. I made a deal with my exie that I cook and she clean and she gladly accepted. Bitch couldn’t cook and I wasn’t eating shit. There’s nothing unmanly about being a good cook. I like good food and I learned to cook good food and I don’t need a woman to cook me good food. But yeah, they make great maids. 😀

      1. Just goes to show, guys do everything better than females except maybe squirting out bastards haha.

    2. i have an example concerning this recently;
      i was in a room of 6 on a weekend group trip, amongst us,
      with 2 girls and this other dude in that room that i had met before, 4 of us at dinnertime were in the room, the dude decides to cook pasta for us 4 (i don’t like pasta, i decided NOT to eat, but still hung out with them);
      after dinner since that dude had undertaken the responsibility of cooking, i wanted to make sure he wouldn’t do the dishes,
      i bought up the topic; ” so since he did the cooking, you are going to have to do the DISHES.
      girl1; “she can do it” (voting for girl 2, the ugly fat girl)
      since they picked on the girl 2(ugly fat girl;
      i said to girl1 one(better looking, but NOT hot); “NO, YOU should do it, why pick on her, you are better suited for the job”
      girl1; “well why don’t you do it” (to ME, i didn’t even eat, massive dishonest shitest imo) as i insisted it should be her,
      she kept saying “why are you picking on me”,
      i kept staring her in a donald draper way (during all that time the pother dude, never brought up the subject, picked once on the easy target, the fat girl, didn’t stand up for himself saying i should drop it.
      i also told girl 1, that behind trying to look inocent, i bet she was a real horndog, and also something like that she should be spanked.
      interesting situation; anyawys i decided to sleep in another room that night, packed up my shit and decided to leave,
      meanwhile girl1 took the intiatative to help out girl2 a bit with the dishes.
      moral of the story,as i left, girl1 appeared surprised and almost sorry that i was leaving,
      i saw then that at i certainly wouldn’t have had any respect from this female friend i told to do the dishes

  59. Well now isn’t this amusing. Notice how Quintus is banning folks from the comments section when they disagree with him?
    Why it’s almost like I’m on a feminist blog!

  60. Any men’s site that has women writers, contributors or especially editors is a shit site, enough said. And Jack Donovan, you’re losing credibility here by trying to defend the guy. By saying you don’t totally agree with AOM’s stance, yet still sort of defending it is a lame cop out out. It’s obvious your opinion is bias since AOM has let you guest post or is, in one way or another, bringing you traffic to your site so you can sell more books. Either way, nobody likes a “fence walker”.

  61. From the Tao Te Ching:
    Those who say don’t know, those who know don’t say
    Manliness is a personal journey that must be lived and experienced, not simply read about on the internet. Those who say, “this is manly, that is not manly” don’t know. Those who know demonstrate manliness in everyday action.

  62. I think AoM is a worthwhile site for a certain type of very cowed, propagandized type of male, which, is, sadly, most of them these days. There are a lot of guys who have been actively discouraged from embracing anything “masculine” almost as if it were a dirty word. AoM gets the wheels turning and allows guys like that to start thinking of themselves positively as men, and taking steps to act like men. Beta 1950s men, yes, but that’s better than omega 2000s men. In theory, a devotee of AoM would be more likely to discover the manosphere than some dude who just ran across an RoK article on his feminist gf’s twitter, who is likely to react with reflexive hostility thanks to social conditioning.

  63. Late to the party, but this is a pretty dumb article.
    I’m a fan of both sites. 90% of your real criticism seems to boil down ‘they don’t teach game at AoM’.
    And yes, game is a critical part of being a man. But so is all the other stuff on AoM. You call their readers pot-bellied, yet they focus on fitness (more so than RoK).
    An RoK reader is an urban player who can hardly change a light bulb. An AoM reader is a suburban young Dad who chops wood and grows a beard. You really think you’re more ‘manly’ than them?
    There site IS very corporate/retail. Good for them.. they probably have 10x your profits because of it. And 90% of their articles are incredibly well-researched, detailed, and helpful. A little different from the half-hearted, uninformed post you just spit out for us here.

    1. “And yes, game is a critical part of being a man.”
      No, not really, not at all. The rest of your post demonstrates you’re an intelligent, reasonable person, so I’d hate to see you get misled by this “game” bullshit, so let me give you some advice, coming from a happily married 41 year old.
      A man can be fulfilled, and find a great woman to spend his life with, without “game”. In fact, “game” is an impediment to that.
      Here is the path of a “gamer”: Before he learns of “game”, he’s completely striking out with women. The reason he’s striking out with women is that he sees them as nothing more than objects that have something he wants, and intelligent, healthy women can smell that agenda a mile away. Even dumb, dysfunctional women can smell that. Then he learns about “game”, all the bullshit to cover up the stank of desperation and fabricate an aura of being “in demand”. Well, the intelligent, emotionally healthy women can see through that bullshit and avoid the gamer, but the dumb and/or emotionally dysfunctional women are fooled. At least enough for one night.
      And so the “gamer” or “PUA” finally gets some success, and thinks to himself “I’ve unlocked the code, this is obviously what it takes to get women”. It becomes easy for the PUA to get the kind of women that fall for “game”, the PUA doesn’t see the point of trying to get to know the women who would require sincerity and a little extra work to impress, the only women he interacts with are dumb and/or dysfunctional, attracted to shallowness because they themselves are shallow, and that reinforces the PUA’s view of all women.
      Now the gamer is trapped in a rut, only he doesn’t realize it. Because he is only attracting women who are attracted to the shallow PUA veneer, in order to keep them, he has to keep that veneer up, which isn’t sustainable longterm. These kinds of girls are always attracted to the brightest, shiniest peacock, so they move on, and usually string the old guy on until they’ve secured the new guy. So being cheated on further reinforces the gamer’s belief that all women are shallow cheating hos and the only thing to do is use them and lose them. This is when the real hatred of women that is exemplified by the article and so many of the comments here sets in. The gamer starts out thinking he’s actually a nice guy who just has to pretend to be a cocky asshole to get girls because that’s what he believes they all want, but as the old saying goes “watch your actions, for they become your habits; watch your habits, for they become your character.” A “Gamer” is no longer some act the guy puts on when he hits the bars, it becomes who he is.
      Now here is where the gamer’s path diverges. You guys who are in your 20s or early to mid 30s haven’t seen or experienced this yet.
      The path on the left for the gamer is to keep being a gamer through his late 30s and beyond. That gets harder and harder, as hair starts to recede, paunch starts to grow, etc. And even if you stave the paunch off by obsessively hitting the gym, well then you start looking like a knotted up piece of gristle with a spray tan. Women your own age become fewer and farther between, as the smart, emotionally healthy ones have settled down, a lot of the dumb dysfunctional ones have gotten smart and healthy with time, and even those who have stayed dumb and dysfunctional, a lot of them have found someone (more on that later). So women your own age, you’re left with the dregs, many of them bitter about men, and plus, since you’ve taught yourself only to see woman as a piece of ass, they are older and don’t look so good to you. So maybe you hit the younger girls. But you’re competing against all the younger guys, both the young PUAs and the guys who just naturally do well with women (the ones you always hated and envied when you were their age). So you’re that pathetic older guy trying to pick up 20-something women, and the only ones you are going to get are the REALLY messed up ones, the ones with daddy issues. Sadly, I have a few friends in their early 40s who have gone down this path.
      The second path, the one on the right, is that the PUA manages to find someone to settle down with by or before his mid-30s. Given that the “game” culture is all about getting the hottest women you can possibly get, your wife was chosen for looks, and maybe how fun she is at a bar (eg., does she get drunk enough to kiss another woman). And because she fell for your “game”, she’s shallow and dumb and dysfunctional.
      So you’re married, and over the next 5 or 10 years of your marriage, one of several developments will occur:
      1. She’ll stay dumb, shallow, and dysfunctional, and she’ll cheat on you because she’s dumb, shallow, and dysfunctional and attracted to shiny new peacocks.
      2. She’ll stay dumb, shallow, and dysfunctional, but maybe won’t cheat on you. But because she’s dumb, shallow, and dysfunctional, you’ll be bored, annoyed, and infuriated by her. This will be especially confounded by the fact that she’s getting older, gaining weight, her boobs and ass are starting to sag, and you guys never go out to bars together because babysitters are freaking expensive, so the only things she had going for her that interested you have evaporated.
      3. She’ll wise up and get emotionally healthy with age and experience. Her boobs will still sag, and because long ago you chose the path of the gamer who only sees women as hot bodies to be conquered you’re not going to be as affectionate with her. Your eye may even start roaming. And she, in her newfound wisdom, will realize the two of you never really had anything deep between you, and that you aren’t giving her the emotional intimacy she needs, and that she probably can’t even trust you, and she’ll dump your sorry ass and eventually be happy with some nice divorced father of two who has taken AoM-type advice to heart. Meanwhile, you will take her dumping you as proof she became a man-hating feminist, so you will rage against feminists and vomit misogyny on websites like ROK, and spend your Friday nights as that pathetic middle-aged guy trying to pick up women at bars with the same sorry PUA crap that worked for you in your 20s.
      All this information will be lost on most of the bros in these comments, but you seem like a fellow with a good head on your shoulders, so please, please purge your head of this ill-considered idea that “game is a critical part of being a man.” Don’t go down that path. Don’t spend your time reading and thinking about how to get women, spend it working on becoming the best man you can be, one who has genuine interests, hobbies, skills. If you work solely on becoming the man you want to be irrespective of what women think of that, as a result you will become a man other people find interesting, including women, the right women, ones who are quality human beings so they recognize other quality human beings. This takes more work than donning the facade of a PUA or learning some “game”, but the longterm payoff is exponentially higher.

  64. There might be an art in being a gentleman, but what art is there in being a man? The two words seem mutually exclusive. You fuck and you don’t give a fuck, what more is there to it than that? I think being a man is all about not giving a fuck about anything and living life the way I want to. 😀

  65. This is the second time we have been upset with a man involved with a kate. I wonder if there is a psychological connect or not…

  66. Look, Quintus, I’ve enjoyed some of your other articles, but this is just a confused maelstrom of *emotional,* and not rational, content.
    I agree with you that Art of Manliness sucks. I stopped even bothering with visiting the site about a year ago. At the risk of sounding like a complete ass, I do think this has everything to do with Mormonism, for reasons I’d happily discuss if anyone cares to, but which I omit here for brevity’s sake.
    That said, I don’t know if you just don’t have the words to describe what you’re saying, but your portrayal of masculinity comes off as being just as erroneous as AoM’s, albeit on the opposite extreme. I don’t consider “angst” or “mania” to be qualities of masculinity, but rather, qualities of intellectually, morally and spiritually impoverished adolescents. Every great philosopher of the masculine tradition would have said that men given over to such things are the embodiment of effeminacy. Your idea that masculinity is so much about game and banging whores as to invalidate any approach lacking this element, is the most effeminate possible view of masculinity I can imagine, apart from openly encouraging us to become catamites. The idea that people with the self-control to avoid substances that they would maybe rather use (drinking, smoking, coffee) have nothing to contribute to masculine thought, is a solid example of the essence of the masculine crisis. Masculinity is not about manic hedonism (that would be effeminacy); neither is virtue about teetotalling. But masculinity is synonymous with virtue, and (natural) virtue is about rational dominance of the will.
    Instead of angst (a German word), I would say that men need certamen (a Latin word). A certamen is a “contest of a combative and martial nature.” Men need the *fight.* Men need to be proven; they need the challenge; they need the circumstances that permit them to practice and be glad of their strength and courage. Masculine culture is built upon the interior and exterior certamen, so that men can be built up, together, for those moments when each of them must prevail singularly in their trials.
    In short: I agree that the character of masculine energy and camaraderie is lofty, concentrated, aggressive and often rowdy. You rightly note that this is missing from Art of Manliness, and that it has been replaced with a gelded and Victorian “gentlemanliness” which is nothing like the manhood even of the Victorian period. But, because you neglected the rational balance of male rowdiness with the
    focusing (not diminishing) effects of natural virtue, this article was a
    confused jumble of emotional outbursts, whose attacks on AoM landed close to the problem, but never really drove home. In fact, the attack went wild and you clipped yourself in the process. “Angst and mania” are effeminate tendencies, and the idea that masculinity is about chasing tail is precisely the kind of effeminacy that made us unfit to rule in the first place. It was men that invented, promulgated and permitted the pill, condoms, etc., and it is men that participated in the sexual revolution that followed. Feminism and the revolution against Patriarchy will end, when we cease invalidating our authority through effeminacy.

  67. Have to agree. AOM used to be one of my favorite sites when it started, but it really has developed into the beta male search for masculinity in activities, dress as opposed to actually being a man.

  68. Brilliant. I have believed for years that Art Of Manliness is poisonous to culture, a Trojan horse, and you’ve summed up its flaws just as I would have. Thanks for creating something better.

  69. while i agree that AoM’s site lacks an edge and often seems G-rated, i think they still have good articles on manliness that reach beyond the scope of the articles on RoK. Attention, would-be responders, don’t take that to mean that I think AoM is in better than RoK! all I’m saying is that there’s a lot of facets to being a well rounded man in modern society. Being a man is about more than wooing beautiful women and being as alpha as possible. As men mature they must learn how to improve their life and strive for personal growth. For many males being a Man means being a good father and a provider for their family. It means being a strong leader in their community and a role model for others to follow. Some of AoM’s best articles focus on these aspects of life. AoM articles often address the challenges men face as they take on more and more responsibilities, to push themselves and achieve difficult goals and improve their lives. That’s why I continue to read their articles.

  70. As much as I find RoK helpful from time to time, AoM has better fitness related articles, fashion advice, tutorials on how to build shit, personal finance, and yes, even advice for self-improvement. Unless I’m missing something, isn’t the confidence one gains from consistent improvent a part of game? You can’t blame someone for using what tools are out there.

  71. “Man” is defined as a contrast in three ways: 1) to animals, 2) to women, 3) to boys.
    Key difference between AoM and RoK: RoK focuses on, and defines, men in opposition to women; AoM focuses on, and defines, men in opposition to boys. This is why the blog is (mostly) unconcerned about sexuality, and why it’s understandably irrelevant to most of RoK’s readers. Yes, RoK’s posts are more raw, but AoM’s readership doesn’t crave reading about this. If men need “struggle, combat, stress, anxiety, bitterness, and anguish”, then they’re getting it through other avenues. AoM doesn’t need to have these things; guys can read the blog as well as others in order to satisfy that. Also, I think it’s shortsighted to think that this craving is a defining quality of men. It’s obviously a defining quality of a certain type of man, but not to men in general. Civility is an undeniably manly quality.
    The most notable point of AoM is to encourage men to find their own definition of manliness/masculinity, something which is not only much more manly than trying to find and fit into a mold, but is more useful; you’re a lot better off and comfortable in a bespoke suit than one off-the-rack.
    Echoing what others have said here: I believe picking AoM as an enemy does more harm than good. They encourage men to challenge themselves towards betterment, and today we need as much of that as we can.

    1. The comparison of man vs boys (AOM) and men vs women (ROK) is so spot on.

  72. *snort* If we all listened to RoK, we’d spend all of our time trying to bed lesbian supermodels and less time growing as men. To disregard a woman’s advice is folly. Only frat boy (emphasis on ‘boy’) “Bros” would ever take advise on how to act more manly from this site

  73. The term “red pill” pill is so fucking nerdy. How can any self respecting individual define their lifestyle with a term from a movie and not feel foolish? Especially since the point of all of this shit is supposed to be removing dependancy on “the mainstream.” Also, the term “manosphere”? Extremely fucking dorky. I understand the mixture of blogosphere and man, but why would a group of freethinking individualists even pay creedence to these known, created by others terms when defining themselves? Seems based in dependence and also, again, it sounds so fucking nerdy.

  74. This article reads as though it was written by a depressed 15 year old emo. I mean, honestly…
    “Yet Kate and Brett want to take those things away from me, and reduce me to a neutered goody-two-shoes, like them. Well, guess what, Kate and Brett. You can’t control me. You aren’t going to corral me into your safe, goody-two-shoes world.”
    Thanks. It’s been fun (I was linked to this site by a fine MRA on another site. I did not seek it out) but I think I’ll stick with Art of Manliness for a non angst-ridden and bitter expression of masculinity.
    I’d rather spend my time working with wood, than whining about why women won’t love me.
    But you keep at it, Return of Kings. I’m sure that you’ll really stick it to your paren- eh, I mean Kate and Brett,
    You show them what happens to people who try to stop men from being whiny loveshies. .

  75. “Thou shalt not accept advice from a woman on manliness.” — then why the fuck should a woman listen to your advice on femininity?

  76. It’s hillarious that women should never give input on what a man should be yet, in another article it states that women should never cut their hair cause they’ll no longer be “bangable” as you so suavly put it. I’m just wondering, is it that men can only criticize women? Or are you transgender/ hermaphrodite which would give you full reign to tell what each gender would do in your ideal world? Maybe you are just crazy.

  77. Start a blog “howtobearealwomen.com” written by a guy. Always make sure you wash the dishes on time, and have a 3 course dinner ready before your man gets home.

  78. Pfff. Holy shit a chick helps run that site?!!! Instant, credibility lost.
    Very simple look at pictures of the source and ask yourself “Is this a credible source on learning about masculinity?…”

  79. I’d have to disagree on some of this… Being a horny female-conquesting beast isn’t integral to manliness, IMHO. You can be a clean person and still have a strong, masculine will.

  80. What bullshit. Both this and AoM.
    The foundation of “all” manliness is independence.
    A real man has his own ethics and lives outside society. A real man is an outlaw.
    A real man does not flatter women into sex. He’s a magnet. He doesn’t have to try. They come to him.
    A real man can withstand the harsh conditions of nature. A real man can survive in the wild on his own.
    Asking questions on “advice” and “improvement” by definition is a weakness. Real men learn by observation, on their own, adapt to their environment for survival.
    A man is successful in life if he fathers children. After all, his existence is temporary. He lives on through his sons.

  81. “It takes a different approach then mine and gets a lot of traffic. I wrote this article to feel self-justified and righteous because I’m an insecure neckbeard.” This is what you sound like.
    OP is definitely a faggot.

  82. It appears that you missed the core ideas behind the website. Stick to your GQs and sex tips, bro. This is out of your league.

  83. “We are the unloved, the unwanted, the dispossessed, and the downtrodden.” Is anyone surprised? With the attitude you show here, it is no wonder. Good luck with that!

  84. I know this is post is old, but I have to say, this post is a joke and whoever wrote it needs to humble himself. AOM is a very different website than ROK. Here you will find articles on how to get laid, bashing feminists, exposing the lies and illusions that we are surrounded by in corporate America – very critical subjects and ideas that are worth reading. On AOM you will find articles on meditation, working out, eating better, conversation techniques, financial advises, cooking, whisky, music, and many skills (such as how to start a fire without matches). – General things that can make any male a better man. By the way, his wife does not write any articles on manliness.To whoever wrote this: There is more in life than getting laid and trying hard to be a Tyler Durden.

  85. I’ve only skimmed a handful of RoK’s articles and admittedly only after having read this one, and I have a few observations and opinions to inject.
    As a young man I was disinfranchised and bitter. I fought frequently, I debated incessantly, and I became ever increasingly frustrated with the foolishness of supposed masculinity and absurdity of modern femininity. As with many young men I found the internet not only an easy place to express this opinion, but I also found rich communitys of others who shared my opinion. Talk of “red pills,” stories of being, and tips to becoming “alpha as fuck,” and guides to get the girl abounded, much like what I’ve seen here.
    However, ultimately I realized that even these things were little more than the product of emotional angst and the inability to be in true and utter control of oneself. I resolved to determine my own answers to questions, and to let my life and experience bear the fruit of those decisions. “Deny myself nothing, and yet be ruled by nothing.” Became a driving philosophy in my life. No one source has all the answers, but there are sources that can consistently cause reflection and consideration. AoM is one of these sources, yet from my time here I can best decribe what I’ve read as nothing new. It is simply the final and inevitable destination of frustrated disenfranchised masculinity.
    Learning to effectively respond to desires and impulses is definitely a gratifying experience but it only offers so much strength. A consistent theme in bushido and shinobe texts is the strength of discipline as opposed to emotion. Far from the fantasies of weaboos, the men who lived according to these texts were the special forces of a war torn region. Cold unyielding disciplined, the razors edge. I quote your own post.
    “It is an experience bristling with emotion, sexual energy, anxiety, angst, suffering, and mania. And it is well that it should be so. For this is the raw energy of the masculine masses bubbling forth in all its uncontrolled intensity. We celebrate that. We revel in that. ”
    Raw energy may blow up Hiroshima, but it doesn’t have the focus to power a civilization. The two expressions of the application of discipline seems to me to be a primary difference in these two blogs.

  86. Oh Lord, please grant me the power to punch people in the face through the internet.

  87. While your article here has been, for me, a bittersweet introduction to RoK, I will personally laud you for “Why Man Needs His Myths”. Other than that I don’t really see the difference between AoM or RoK aside from RoK being able to discuss sex without any fear or hesitation, which is a good thing by the way.
    I also look at AoM and RoK as useful blogs that I can use to consolidate valuable information. I found myself at common ground with some of the content provided to me throughout other articles as I continued to browse RoK and now I find myself in an enigma; it is a strange feeling that is hard to comprehend, and it also feels like culture shock.

  88. “There is no angst here. There is no bitterness here.”
    That is why ROK (and this writer) is so stupid. These are not highly regarded, or valuable traits. They signify that you are weak, and can’t deal with your problems. There is nothing manly, AT ALL, about being bitter or angsty, you fucking moron.

  89. Bullshit ! so you’re saying men should be emotional ? depressed ? angry ?
    All of these are femenine fellings .
    Look at greatest warrior Feodor Emilianenko one of best MMa Fighter did you saw him anger ? he is a killing machine but only on ring and always honorable and respectful to opponent.
    Minamoto Mushasi didn’t say a word about depressed motherfuckers.
    I guess people around here are from US or some fast growing country … because I’fe seen in this countrys men tend to change fast and today image of a man is a loud emotional retarded fuck .
    Any way I will stick to old school or to my old old ancestors “Geto-Dacians “the fairest and bravest of the Thracians”
    Unfortunately USA people don’t have any ancestors at least those that made Indian genocide .
    And you rotten dog shit teach us how to be man ?

  90. I have long been a follower of AoM and find their insights to be incredibly refreshing. I was disheartened and not surprised to discover your website, and this particular article that is one of the least manly things I’ve read. AoM is interested in rediscovering the classic man–a man with morals, character, and values. This is deeply needed in our culture. I would argue that AoM is actually about true masculinity.

  91. I don’t get why you’re so hostile, but I would advise you just to not read it if it offends you so much! I follow the blog and enjoy the articles, regardless of who wrote them. There’s a lot of well written content about great men throughout history, simple lifestyle tips and good solid research on all kinds of topics. No man needs a website to tell them how to live but if you feel that need, maybe you should start your own ‘real man’ site full of the stress, anguish and misery you mention with very little artfulness at all. Too bad your world view is so negative.

  92. From this article, it’s pretty obvious that you only looked at the main site…. not the forums under the community tab.
    All the shit you bitch about not being on AOM are there in the community

  93. Here goes another one of the many, many people envious of the AoM’s well-deserved success. Oh, well… you haven’t been the first, you know. Won’t be the last. This article just goes to prove that Brett’s excellent content is reaching an audience wide enough to include (sadly) people like you, who will give vent to their mean feelings without even worrying to find some decent flaws to poke at. Sorry for you who wrote this article, whoever you may be.

  94. Just the diatribe of some radical masculist who feels threatened. Lame. I find it amusing that they say AoM is for puny betamales and keyboard jockeys, because it appears that the author is one.
    The accusation that AoM is strictly commercial is very hypocritical. This site is riddled with popup ads.
    “Yet Kate and Brett want to take those things away from me, and reduce me to a neutered goody-two-shoes, like them. Well, guess what, Kate and Brett. You can’t control me. You aren’t going to corral me into your safe, goody-two-shoes world. I’d prefer to whip out my tomahawk and take a few scalps. That’s me.”
    I’ve heard hippies who don’t sound this dumb. “You can’t control me.” Really?? What. A. Schmuck.
    News flash: The three comments below mine is from the AoM community. How’s that for neutered? This whole website is tainted with the stench of douchebag PUAs.

  95. I see you’re into the whole “beta” and “alpha ” male bullshit so I’d rather go on the Art of Manliness site and learn useful stuff, not only about dating and being an “alpha neanderthal hoooh hooh ooga booga Omegle conversation type bullshit”. Also, “game”. Gotta be fuckin’ kidding me. The “alpha”, “beta” stuff is all some PUA horseshit. You either try to improve yourself as a man or you don’t and that’s it. There are no “alpha” men or “beta” men, we are not wolves.

  96. Uh, dude, there is actually a guy on the site. Brett writes, Kate edits. There are also many regular guest writers who are, in fact, men.
    While you may not like the site, and fair enough, you certainly don’t need to slander it online – I reckon from your tone you’re just afraid to lose your readership to this site. Grow up and move on. Do you really think you’re making yourself more of a “man” by trying to take down “competition”?

  97. I agree with this ROK article. AOM seems to think we are still living in the 50’s, lol, it’s the 21st century. I enjoy reading the articles on Return of Kings and I like that its more realistic, I am a man and I suffer, actually I like Buddhism and I think “life is suffering” is one of the four noble truths, is it not? Good job ROK on criticising that other website, it’s a seductive charismatic web site but they are ignoring the reality of the male existance, the truth that our lives are defined by suffering. to any young males out there I would advise you to think critically about the stuff that websites like AOM posts, you don’t need to go and man up, focus on finding reality and not 1950s nostalgia and “disney lifestyle advice” lol. from what I have learned about women, Western women aren’t worth comitting to a lot of the time and if I was going to marry I’d like to marry an Asian girl with strong values.
    “Another irritating thing about this site is its rated G, safe, feel-good tone. There is no angst here. There is no bitterness here. There is no suffering, no anguish, no pain, no conflict, no controversy. We men need these things. We crave them. We need struggle, combat, stress, anxiety, bitterness, and anguish. These things define us. They create us, and make us who we are.”
    This is true. As a Shaolin Monk said on a video I watched on YouTube, “Life is pain”. If you follow the AOM advice, chances are you will feel pain. Instead work on ways to eliminate pain: by eliminating craving.

  98. I agree with you and thought you brought up interesting point, except the part where you generalise all women. You just pointed out how arrogant it is for a woman to tell a man how to… well, be a man, and just after you put every women in the same basket, and have the arrogance to say that deep inside our heart we WANT to see “a man dethroned”? How about we all stop this king of harmful and hurtful generalisation and stereotyping? As much as it isn’t fair for men, it’s not fair for women either. I’m seeing enough sexism in both sides to not support any of you tbh. Also I’m not sure how comparing LotR to this could work; they do not have the same purpose, were not created with the same mindset, nor medium, and Tolkien is ONE person. I don’t think it’s comparable.

  99. RoK is PUA-tier shenanigans whereas AoM isnt some edgefag degenerate trying to get your dick wet and BUY MY BOOK BUY MY BOOK BUY MY BOOK

  100. I don’t see how this site is anymore useful than AoM ….a real man needs nothing to with either of these ..it’s just something to read like the newspaper… Those of you actually needing life advice on how to be a man from either of these websites… Need to find the nearest hole….or highest skyscraper…. these RoK doods hold the same level as validation as any website to a real man…none….just something to read while I’m on the crapper….maybe found something new to wash up with while I’m at it ..but what kinda man dosent already know how to be a man……this shits just entertainment

  101. Theres always been something about AoM that i couldnt put my finger on. Till i realised, that being a man is not a delicate artform, like being a woman is. Manliness is brute, braun, strength. Power. Utilitarian in nature, not artwork.

  102. This i going to be an honest critique of what you got here. Everyone else is patting themselves on the back over this article but I wont.
    I’ll just say to start that I believe Brett’s choices to lead a stable family life is the most masculine statement a man can make in his life, save a man shed blood for his brothers and family and country. This mode of life should be emulated, not criticized and ridiculed.
    “Thou shalt not accept advice from a woman on manliness. There are no exceptions to this rule.”
    I can believe that on the whole, we should not seek out advice from women but I’ve read multiple articles on ROK of men giving advice to women on how to be ladies. You see where Im going with this one. And i’ve read a bunch of brett’s books, a lot of which he claims his wife helped him write- i’ve never found anything nonsensical or anti-masculine in his work. The women compliments the man in the correct context.
    “Another irritating thing about this site is its rated G, safe, feel-good
    tone. There is no angst here. There is no bitterness here. There is
    no suffering, no anguish, no pain, no conflict, no controversy.”
    right, no suffering or anguish or conflict or controversy. Accept for there article on the egyptian revolution, memento mori, the lessons on manliness series covering countless great men of history and their struggles that made them who they are. I could go further but really i’d just be listing off their entire catalogue.
    I don’t understad the g-rated feel safe tone critique. Brett’s AoM content (books and online) told me to learn to fight, live by the virtues of masculinity every day, and to be a Man even when, no, especially when its dangerous. Have you read the sheepdog part 3 article? what about that is not manly? Courage, honesty, and self-mastery are what we should seek after.
    Manliness is not pointing at the flaws of women, or over exaggerating our emotions, or writing useless chalk about the dating game and yadda yadda. ‘Angst and bitterness’ belongs to teenagers, not grown men who have self-control and power over the life of their family.
    The “Lifestyle Limitations” section, or the “im implying that Brett is a phony because he doesn’t write about how to be a PUA” section. I dont agree with pick up artistry, so i wont go along with this part. I come to RoK for critiques of feminism, culture and masculinity articles in particular.
    “That’s just my opinion. I can’t see how someone who doesn’t drink,
    smoke, or even use caffeine can meaningfully speak on [PUA arsenal list]. ”
    I can knock this down in a few seconds. Alcohol produces estrogens and is a depressant. It will turn a real man into into an overly emotional boy in an instant.You could even say it turns a man into a woman; After a few drinks he cant stop talking and he cant drive either. Real men not only dont drink, but can’t drink because they know its a detriment to their masculine core and their self control.
    Caffeine is for pussies who don’t have adrenaline. Smoking kills healthy cells in the body, and leads to low testosterone production, difficulties building muscle, heart disease, and impotence/erectile dysfunction. The above substances are hard-science and have proven to be anti-masculine.
    Note also that these substances are somehow essential to PUA game. Small wonder why PUA’s may be found to be bitter and whinny bloggers or audience members who love to wax poetic about the state of decline of men and how its all womens fault. Such a cultural victimhood is not manly at all. Be a Man. Seek after virtue. Character building. AoM is a great website that promotes the highest of masculine virtues. This article highlights the lesser parts of RoK.

  103. “Because deep down, in her innermost heart, the most secret and cherished desire of every woman is to see a man dethroned, and rolled in the muck. ”
    So now the author, a man is assuming he knows what women want deep down. HYPOCRIT. I say this as a man who agrees yes women shouldn’t tell men how to be men nor should men tell women how to be women.

  104. Old article and I’m very late in commenting. But I had to include this: the article is a silly attack on a different website for a perceived weakness. After reading most of the comments I’ve realized that all of the men on here hate AoM for pandering to feminists and being PC (which I don’t think they do at all) but their main goal is the pursuit of women. Bottom line, you are focused on women, not being manly. On top of that, all the insults center around calling people “pussies” or “fags” or “pussy fags”. Wow, feel like I’m back in middle school with all the little guys trying to sound tough. I’m just really blown away that there is a group of boys that crowd around a site that promotes such juvenile articles and they want to call themselves men and try to make themselves feel like men by talking tough in the comments section about how many chick’s they’d bang and women should stay in the kitchen. I’m not really even mad, just…disappointed. I hope this article isn’t indicative of the regular content on this site but I’ll never know because this one was enough to make me look elsewhere.
    And before anyone says it, I know, I’m a “pussy fag” and I’m probably banned.
    Luckily, I outgrew being stung by name calling years ago. As far as being banned, it would just be proof of how uncertain you are in your own beliefs.
    Good day.

  105. This is the least manly article I have read. AoM is better. It has character, great advice, and integrity. I have learned so much from it over the years.

  106. Sounds like someone is angry another site has more subscriptions and visitors, I didn’t even know this site existed until I searched ArtofManliness forums.
    What do I find? Some “alpha male” wallowing in a pool of his own tears that a woman has a better manliness site than he does.

  107. Art of manliness, from your description, seems like a place where men who aren’t already broken might go. This kind of site is for degenerates,which is why it appeals to me.I’m reminded of what I want to overcome,not idealize what I already have done.
    A bunch of dudes sharing the same sluts isn’t any more manly than anything else.

  108. I agree with everything this article says but I must disagree with this:
    “I can’t see how someone who doesn’t drink, smoke, or even use caffeine
    can meaningfully speak on approaching, female shit tests, text game,
    data sheets of foreign countries, sex tips, game tips, and other similar
    topics that are integral to the single dating male experience.”
    don’t smoke, don’t use caffeine and drink as rarely as possible. I am
    still successfully using game and taking no shit form women, I have
    aplenty of women and sex in my life.
    After feminists and manginas
    the next in group of people I hate are those fucks who insist that men
    must have unhealthy habits to be men. Fuck you! I will not put poisons
    in my body and I will stil AMOG you when it suits me.
    Nobody will define what it means to be a man for me, not manginas from art of manlyness or church who insist that poisons are a sin and neither the hypermasciiline caricatures of men who insist that you are not part of the big boys club if you don’t drink and smoke hard.
    I stand free in my decision to ignore poisons and at the moment you drop a hint that poisons are a requirement for being a man I will hold you in contempt be you a ROK author, G manifesto or Pope himself. Fuck you!

  109. If that’s how RoK intends to outperform the competition, you’re bound to lose this game.

  110. This is an old article, but it’s the first I’ve heard of AoM.. it’d be interesting to see if now (2 years after writing) it has gone the way of Good Men Project, i.e. full ball-erasing feminazi.

  111. Maybe AoM doesn’t talk about recreational sex because recreational sex isn’t a manly activity. Maybe recreational sex is a way to avoid actually understanding yourself and therefore ending up in a healthy relationship?
    I mean come on, you talk about ‘game’ like it isn’t just manipulation to trick a woman into liking you because you aren’t already likable… to be interested in learning ‘game’ essentially means you aren’t actually a man, and are scared shitless about it, and the easiest way to manliness is to find ways to make women think that you are. Bravo to you. You’ve put acorns where balls could be.
    What is obvious when comparing the two sights (AoM and RoK) is the ad presentation. I mean, look at all of the floozy advertising RoK allows. Maybe it fits the ideology they represent here, who knows.

  112. Maybe AoM doesn’t talk about recreational sex because recreational sex isn’t a manly activity. Maybe recreational sex is a way to avoid actually understanding yourself and therefore ending up in a healthy relationship?
    I mean come on, you talk about ‘game’ like it isn’t just manipulation to trick a woman into liking you because you aren’t already likable… to be interested in learning ‘game’ essentially means you aren’t actually a man, and are scared shitless about it, and the easiest way to manliness is to find ways to make women think that you are. Bravo to you. You’ve put acorns where balls could be.
    What is obvious when comparing the two sights (AoM and RoK) is the ad presentation. I mean, look at all of the floozy advertising RoK allows. Maybe it fits the ideology they represent here, who knows.

  113. This site seems to be based around avoiding mental anguish. Do you not realize that sex is our culture’s number one opiate?

  114. Aside from being the “Man in the Grey Flannel Suit” companion piece, the formatting is incredibly poor. The domain name is the only asset of value. The formatting of the site should be used for promoting Web Development and Design courses: “Do you wan’t your site to look and function like this?” The menubar floats about the page as if it’s lost. Articles are posted without the least concern for basic usability standards: how much JPEG compression can a picture take before it becomes a viable checkerboard? In the community sign-up section, half of the form is usable, then the fields revert to 1980’s monospaced type format. I revoked my request to be a member of the community. My only cintribution would have seen me kicked off the site. I was going to post a job lead for freelancers — referring them to a site who needed drastic help in coding, php, MySQL, image preparation, i.e., The Art of Manliness site! I suppose it may have something to do with the fact that I have viewed the site on an iPad and iPhone. No sense in upgrading the site to work with those oddities, it’s not as if any “real man” uses these tools. No sir, they carry around destops and heavy monitors; kicking sand in the face of the puny guy at the beach! Wow. I have only discussed the context. The content? It’s perfect for guys who would never use the Internet in the first place. I call it the Coloring book of Loneliness. The only chance of finding Art on that site is if he works there! I am a retired Web developer with 18 years of experience, who used to say “Content is king!” only because I figured it was a given that most business Web sites were structurally coherent. Well, I did say, “most.”

  115. AOM kicks your site’s ass. You are whiny, misogynistic bros who refuse to grow up and take responsibility for what happens in your lives. Hint: lifting weights isn’t going to solve your insecurity. Neither is using women for sex, then being mad when they don’t call you back.

  116. Actually, you’re the one who sounds like a middle-aged potbellied keyboard jockey….

  117. Stop self-promoting your site. It seems that all you are doing in this article is to discredit Art of Manliness and exalt “return of kings” Find another way to steal readers.

  118. That was a useless article. Author sounds like some neutered hipster who learned his concept of manliness from his boyfriend. You think that manliness derives from angst? What tripe! Its not a world of men anymore and this writer further proves that. Bruce Jenner, is that you?

  119. Wow, I just stumbled onto this completely sexist, emasculating website and am pretty shocked. To say “deep down, in her innermost heart, the most secret and cherished desire of every woman is to see a man dethroned, and rolled in the muck.” is pretty much the most sexist, least manly thing I have ever seen. The author sounds like an utter jerk. Women are to be respected, their feelings and intentions respected and cherished. That is chivalry. That is manliness.

  120. Ok, so I know I’m a little late in the comments here, but I felt like I had to add something. I find the authors view and opinions on AoM to be harsh and a bit contradictory. First off, the great thing about the internet is if you can’t find what your looking for, the address bar is one click away! Obviously this author is looking for, and I will use his words, a different world view on manliness than Brett McKay is. And the fact that Brett has one way of presenting manliness is not necessarily wrong just because it doesn’t include how to pick up loose women. If that is the readers thing, looks like this is the site to go to. But, I feel AoM is presenting a more gentlemen, yester-years view on manliness. And some men prefer that over the more present world view on manliness. And guess what, that’s fine! If I find a website on a better way to play guitar and I don’t like their way, I find another site for advice.
    I can say the same thing about this web sites world view on manliness, that it seems to be geared toward a more instinctual, hormone driven lifestyle that has one reject women and their advice for men. (This is the part where we completely ignor historically famous men who loved and relied on their wives for support and decisions) This is not to say we need to bow to the feminist movement in our society to, I think the opposition is true. But, we cannot just completely ignore the benefits of having a great woman by your side through life.
    I don’t know if this author had a wicked divorce and swore off married life or not, it seems like it, but to push that on other men and to persuade them to think the same of woman the way this author talks about them is a shame. Obviously no man will be giving advice on child barring, but to make that a comparison to what Mrs. McKay may be writing about, if anything, is absurd.
    And the last thing is, from what it sounds like the author has stated in the beginning he hasn’t really looked into the site or even listened to its podcast. It dives into much more than “Disney” like manliness. Some things I have no interest in and skip but others I found very beneficial to my life and becoming a better man. But, to each his own on becoming a better man. In the end we all have to look into our hearts and decide who we are and how we can better our selfs and the world around us.

  121. Wow what a joke this website is. Art of Manliness gives actual advice on how to be a distinguished modern men, like James Bond.
    RoK is a poser website written for 21 year olds who live with mom and think that “being a man” is about getting drunk on Bud Light and trying to smash 3/10 whales at the local club.
    It’s a site on how to be a “man” written by teenage virgins and unemployed felons who learned how to act “macho” on the internet by watching reruns of “Johnny” Bravo on cartoon network.
    Most of the “advice” on this site is such crap it wouldn’t even make the front page of “Men’s Health” and yet RoK has the gaul to attack other sites? Get a life.

    1. “Wow what a joke this website is. Art of Manliness gives actual advice on how to be a distinguished modern men, like James Bond.”
      …You do realise James Bond is a fictional character, right?

  122. The Art of Manliness has a few good aspects such as encouraging frugality and valuing you career over women but is mostly blue pill.

  123. Pretty bold double standards coming from a website that routinely talks about how women should all act like the wife from a family sitcom from the 1950’s. You’d surely be appalled if you had a sister who woke up every day at 3:00 in the afternoon with a hangover and an unaccountably sore ass, and when you told her that was a bad lifestyle, she said that because you’re a man, your opinion is invalid by default.

  124. the problem with Art of Manliness is that they start from the idea that the past teaches us how to be a man, they are profoundly nostalgic.
    However society had changed, not in the least because our technology has changed and this forces us to change to rethink and readjust our values.
    On the AoM website is an excellent article on changing the oil in a car, which was important in the 1950s because oil needs to be changed reguarly. But now our cars are better and we only need to change oil once in a year (at least I do) so there is simply no need to know such thing anymore.
    We need to embrace change not fight it.
    On one of his post, Brett McKay has mentioned he did suffer from depression, a disease he called the black dog. I’m not suprised by that because his whole website signals that he’s profoundly unhappy with his life and that he lacks a drive to make his mark on the world. That would make you depressed.
    He should use his uneasiness with current society to improve it, to develop new interpretations of old values, … and thereby making his mark.

  125. Just found this article and it made me laugh. Every time I read an AoM article I question the manliness in the article. I also ask myself “do I really want to dress like that?” After every article.

  126. it seems that you are just a frustrated guy who got rejected a couple of times and is now trying to prove his masculinity by being a complete ass… at least this is the vibe you are sending out…

  127. I’m not going to lie, I used to hate on this site. I thought it was basically a bunch of pre-pubescent boys bitching for the sake of bitching. That was in September 2014.
    As fate would have it, that was just about the time I decided to really give the pick-up game “a go”. To really put myself out there and fail until I succeeded.
    Up until then, I had maintained the ideal that women were some sort of “magical creature” capable of giving everything of herself to the man she loves.
    And damn anyone who thought otherwise.
    In the past 18 months, I’ve fucked my way through about 90 women. I say this not to boast, but to allow the reader to understand where I’m coming from.
    In that 90, I have discovered that not only are women ABSOLUTELY NOT magical creatures, but they are most useless in general.
    Sure they’re fun to fuck, they’re warm and they smell nice but women are pigs.
    A few things I’ve discovered:
    Women all talk about how they “don’t suck dick”.
    I have skull fucked more women than you can believe and came down their throat, shot load after load on their face and used their hair to wipe my dick off and they loved it!
    Women all talk about how they hate anal sex.
    I have found that women LOVE when you fuck them up the ass, pull their hair and shoot your load up their asshole so hard, it takes an hour to drip out.
    They have NO IDEA how to get, maintain, or keep a relationship.
    A women is basically a child and you are her plaything. If you don’t set the rules, she will do whatever she wants to you until she gets bored, then she’ll leave your stupid ass.
    If you let a woman have her way, she will ruin your life. She will crater your business, she will keep you out of the gym, keep you fat, make you lose your friends, EVERYTHING!
    Women have no fucking memory
    Do a million things for a woman and she will remember the one goddamned thing you didn’t do.
    Women are shitty leaders
    Politics and Hilary Clinton aside, (I’m voting for Sanders), women are too consumed with themselves to be great at anything.
    Women are not loyal, they are not in your corner, they will leave you for the bigger better deal in a FUCKING HEARTBEAT.
    After all this, I have finally figured it out, have a girlfriend and fuck her like a fiend on my terms.
    But still…
    If you want to get anything out of this life, stay fucking single. Women don’t fucking understand shit.
    So with all that said, I have been a fool and I would like to offer a most humble apology to all members of ROK. Keep up the great work guys, because eventually all your haters will listen to you.

  128. You also misunderstand their mission. They are trying to bring back the version of manliness your grandpa adhered to. They value morals, honor, dignity, honesty, etc. They don’t believe “manliness” is synonymous with being “rugged” or “tough” alone. They feel it is a package deal and that is why they don’t offer advice in “recreational sex” because that, in their eyes (as well as many others), is not respectable or honorable behavior. They want to revive the essence of manhood and try to model notable men in history such as Theodore Roosevelt or John Muir. This doesn’t make they a “neutered” site that is only for “pot-bellied” men. Also, they’re isn’t anything wrong with a female co-writer especially considering it is Brett’s wife. It helps drive their message more considering they believe in the classic model of families and gender roles.

  129. This article is bullshit. AoM introduced me to the Manosphere and Brett McKay is a really great guy. By the way, I have no problem with him making a living with the site. He puts a ton of work and effort into it and I’ve seen several of my friends awakened to their masculinity because of his articles. Methinks this author and site are just a bit jealous he’s stealing their page views and readership?

  130. i like AOM. Helped me choose a suit when i had no idea. trendy GQ was sure of no help, nor the current “mass media” at all. Peace and all the best!

  131. ok, so i’m with you on AoM. but don’t tear it down and then not offer alternatives. What the hell kind of journalism is that?

  132. If I could only read one author’s work for the rest of my life it would be Brett McKay’s.

  133. This is a colossally stupid post. And, frankly, this is a relentlessly stupid site.
    Brett McKay is light-years head of you; he is where any of the readers of RoK with even a modicum of sense will ideally, one day, end up, if they are lucky.
    They will eventually see past juvenile crap like this: “I need my angst and my bitterness. What makes us so much greater than
    you, and more profound than you, is that we recognize this. ”
    I don’t know any man worth emulating, that clings to his bitterness and his angst like that, or who has such a pathetic obsession with who is greater than who.
    I don’t know anyone who is actually great, who wastes their time on that.
    The really sad thing is that there is so little good content out there on masculinity that people who should know better have to read trash like this.

  134. Any white-trash mental midget in a trailer park can mindlessly hookup with girls left and right, especially if they set their standards low and get rapey. But it takes a man to be civilized and emotionally stable. I think RoK is just a little bit jealous that AoM is more successful than his site.

  135. I disagree with this very much.
    Firstly, a woman can give a man advice on how to be a man. Especially in the area of dating because a woman knows what she loves for a man to do. That is, a gentlemen. Every man must be a gentlemen to a woman. This article is a Bullshit attempt to discredit a team who look to help men.

  136. Hahahahaha
    Quintus’ masculinity is so fragile. Did you not get enough blowjobs in high school? Anybody who drones on about having “game” never had any and never will. Go on “seducing” women who have no self-respect. That’s your business. But at least have the integrity not to call it manliness.

  137. Oh. My. God. I can’t believe someone took the time to write this nonsense! You guys are such haters!
    FACT: The McKays DO NOT lack credibility. They’ve published multiple books and been doing it for a decade. Hellooo? Pretty sure that makes them the experts, not you. And why exactly cam women not give advice on how to be manly? They are actually the BEST judges if manliness because that’s who we are manly for, right? Well, maybe not for homosexuals… I’m sure you can speak to that one!
    FACT: The Are of Manliness is NOT G-rated good two shoes stuff! There are all kinds of dangerous issue they discuss. Why don’t you READ them more.
    FACT: The Mormon lifestyle IS more manly than any other. You wouldn’t know. I do because I am Mormon. The McKays got it right. You have the lifestyle of a heathen, my friend. Get God.
    FACT: The tone is NOT for henpecked middle-aged men. It’s for coming of age men. I know this because I bought the book for my nephew’s who are turning 18 and there are plenty of other guys who have read the book at that age. It’s meant for people who CARE if their youth grows into proper men, not heathens like you!
    FACT: The McKays manliness > your manliness. Enough said.

  138. Oh, and I assume one of you poo-pokers is the “doctor” who wrote the criticism book of The Art of Manliness? Who else would take the time to do that other than the haters who wrote this website, the only one criticizing the McKays on the entire internest!? MAN UP, my friends and boycott that garbage! If youve have come to your senses dont buy it and give a negative rating so nobody else does:

  139. Art of Manliness isn’t all that bad. Not that it’s great either, but still not that bad.If you took all the articles on game off of RoK you’d be left with something pretty similar to it, actually. If you want to see a site loisoning the concept of masculinity check out goodmenproject.com. Everything on that site reads like the work of a either a woman or a male feminist.

  140. Okay I will pick up the rope on the 3 year old post. Let’s look at this deeper and objectively without judgment on my part, the third pull down on RoK’s nav bar is Shop, the eighth on AoM. Donate is the Third pull down on RoK’s top nav bar and on the side bar. There seems to not be a Donate button on AoM. Seems RoK distributes free 2 per day that is edgy content. AoM distributes content once a day 5 days a week aimed at raising the bar for men at a wide range of experiences. Aom has one bar of paid ads for a total of 8 ads that would relate to men. RoK has 5 bars with a total of 16 paid tabloid content many geared to women and only 1 that I would consider supporting the stated ideological (okay there was judgment their. AoM no content I could find that was putting others down, RoK all content I found was putting others down. RoK has less than 15 thousand followers AoM more than 1.03 million. Think about it.

Comments are closed.