The most interesting books of the Bible for those who aren’t believers in God are the wisdom books of Job and Ecclesiastes. Written from a philosophical point of view, they attempt to help people live with suffering and pain while putting existence into context.
Book of Job
Job is a devout believer in God who follows all of His rules. He has been blessed with incredible wealth and numerous children. Satan then challenges God by arguing that Job is only faithful because of what he has gained, and that he would immediately curse God if everything was taken away from him. God allows Satan to destroy him, taking his wealth and killing all of his children.
Once the misfortune befalls Job, his wife implores him to curse God, but Job refuses. Instead, he openly laments at why God is allowing him to suffer. He even asks God to allow him to die.
I would rather be strangled—
rather die than suffer like this.
I hate my life and don’t want to go on living
Oh, leave me alone for my few remaining days. (Job 7:15-16)Why make me your target?
Am I a burden to you?
Why not just forgive my sin
and take away my guilt?
For soon I will lie down in the dust and die.
When you look for me, I will be gone. (Job 7:20-21)What do you gain by oppressing me?
Why do you reject me, the work of your own hands,
while smiling on the schemes of the wicked? (Job 10:3)
He then has a series of poetic dialogues with priestly men in an attempt to explain God’s justice. Job asks some pointed questions, implying that those who are eager to sin seem to experience more prosperity than those who closely follow God’s words.
The godless seem like a lush plant growing in the sunshine,
its branches spreading across the garden.
Its roots grow down through a pile of stones;
it takes hold on a bed of rocks.
But when it is uprooted,
it’s as though it never existed! (Job 8:16-18)When a plague sweeps through,
he laughs at the death of the innocent.
The whole earth is in the hands of the wicked,
and God blinds the eyes of the judges.
If he’s not the one who does it, who is? (Job 9:23-24)
Just like how there are so many laws in the legal code that you are always on the hook for something illegal, there are also so many possible sins that it may be impossible to live a clean life.
Whatever happens, I will be found guilty.
So what’s the use of trying?
Even if I were to wash myself with soap
and clean my hands with lye,
you would plunge me into a muddy ditch,
and my own filthy clothing would hate me. (Job 9:29-31)
The men that Job spills his guts to state that he’s sinning in some way and knows nothing about how God works, and that he must grin and bear it instead of questioning God’s actions.
Pay attention to this, Job.
Stop and consider the wonderful miracles of God!
Do you know how God controls the storm
and causes the lightning to flash from his clouds?
Do you understand how he moves the clouds
with wonderful perfection and skill?
When you are sweltering in your clothes
and the south wind dies down and everything is still,
he makes the skies reflect the heat like a bronze mirror.
Can you do that? (Job 37:14-18)
God appears and asks Job how dare he question His actions, even though those actions amounted to an agreement with Satan.
Who is this that questions my wisdom
with such ignorant words?
Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell me, if you know so much.
Who determined its dimensions
and stretched out the surveying line?
What supports its foundations,
and who laid its cornerstone
as the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy? (Job 38:2-7)
God goes on to describe his powers and then serves a “How dare you?” argument to Job, who then accepts his utter impotence.
Then the LORD said to Job,
“Do you still want to argue with the Almighty?
You are God’s critic, but do you have the answers?”
Then Job replied to the LORD,
“I am nothing—how could I ever find the answers?
I will cover my mouth with my hand.
I have said too much already.
I have nothing more to say.” (Job 40:2-5)You asked, ‘Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorance?’
It is I—and I was talking about things I knew nothing about,
things far too wonderful for me.
You said, ‘Listen and I will speak!
I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.’
I had only heard about you before,
but now I have seen you with my own eyes.
I take back everything I said,
and I sit in dust and ashes to show my repentance.” (Job 42:3-6)
Other parts of the Bible channel Job by asking why bad on Earth is allowed to continue:
Wake up, O Lord! Why do you sleep?
Get up! Do not reject us forever.
Why do you look the other way?
Why do you ignore our suffering and oppression?
We collapse in the dust,
lying face down in the dirt.
Rise up! Help us!
Ransom us because of your unfailing love. (Psalm 44:23-26)
And the usual response is to not question God:
What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
How terrible it would be if a newborn baby said to its father,
‘Why was I born?’
or if it said to its mother,
‘Why did you make me this way?’ (Isaiah 5:9-10)
After Job stopped questioning God, he was rewarded with even greater prosperity than before:
So the LORD blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 teams of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters. He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch. In all the land no women were as lovely as the daughters of Job. And their father put them into his will along with their brothers. Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren. Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, full life. (Job 42:12-17)
You have to be patient with God:
Those who plant in tears will harvest with shouts of joy. They weep as they go to plant their seed, but they sing as they return with the harvest. (Psalm 126:5-6)
The lesson of this story seems to be one of stoicism: accept your fate, don’t question it, and understand that what you have now can be taken from you at a moment’s notice if God wants to, no matter how cleanly you have lived in his honor. Ironically, this book did more to make me question God’s wisdom than any other.
Book Of Ecclesiastes
The next wisdom book is Ecclesiastes, purportedly written by King’s David son, Solomon, who amassed one-thousand wives during his reign as King of Israel. His wife collection led to him serving other gods, and he was punished for it when God broke up the Kingdom of Israel. Ecclesiastes is the book that Solomon wrote at the end of his life, sharing all that he learned.
“Everything is meaningless,” says the Teacher, “completely meaningless!” What do people get for all their hard work under the sun? Generations come and generations go, but the earth never changes. The sun rises and the sun sets, then hurries around to rise again. The wind blows south, and then turns north. Around and around it goes, blowing in circles. Rivers run into the sea, but the sea is never full. Then the water returns again to the rivers and flows out again to the sea. Everything is wearisome beyond description. No matter how much we see, we are never satisfied. No matter how much we hear, we are not content. History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new. (Ecclesiastes 1:2-11)
What is the point of accumulating wisdom in life? Why work hard?
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. (Ecclesiastes 1:18)
I thought, “Wisdom is better than foolishness, just as light is better than darkness. For the wise can see where they are going, but fools walk in the dark.” Yet I saw that the wise and the foolish share the same fate. Both will die. So I said to myself, “Since I will end up the same as the fool, what’s the value of all my wisdom? This is all so meaningless!” For the wise and the foolish both die. (Ecclesiastes 2:13-16)
So what do people get in this life for all their hard work and anxiety? Their days of labor are filled with pain and grief; even at night their minds cannot rest. It is all meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 2:22-23)
All is vanity:
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
Promiscuous and bad women are sent forth as a punishment from God:
I discovered that a seductive woman is a trap more bitter than death. Her passion is a snare, and her soft hands are chains. Those who are pleasing to God will escape her, but sinners will be caught in her snare. (Ecclesiastes 7:26)
Solomon tries to convince himself that evil will not prosper, but he can’t help coming back to the fact that it does:
When a crime is not punished quickly, people feel it is safe to do wrong. But even though a person sins a hundred times and still lives a long time, I know that those who fear God will be better off. The wicked will not prosper, for they do not fear God. Their days will never grow long like the evening shadows. And this is not all that is meaningless in our world. In this life, good people are often treated as though they were wicked, and wicked people are often treated as though they were good. This is so meaningless! (Ecclesiastes 8:11-16)
At this moment, it seems that Solomon goes off the rails by seemingly promoting a life of debauchery:
So I recommend having fun, because there is nothing better for people in this world than to eat, drink, and enjoy life. That way they will experience some happiness along with all the hard work God gives them under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 8:15)
One interpretation of this is that if you live in sin like Solomon, you will eventually come to the conclusion that life is meaningless, all is for naught, and the only purpose is to have fun. The book may have been included in the Bible to serve as an example of what will happen to you if behave as Solomon and come to the end of your life thinking that it wasn’t worth it. I hope this was the intended result because otherwise it would cause you to lose faith in God’s own wisdom in justice, just like with Job.
The wisdom books of the Bible raise questions of God’s justice and plans for his human subjects. Why do people suffer or prosper? Why does life feel like it’s not being guided by God? These questions vexed the Jews enough that they honored other Gods to get more immediate results. And then Jesus Christ came along to say that it will all be worth it—not necessarily now, but in the eternal afterlife, as long as you accept him as your savior.
Read More: The Old Testament’s “Sexist” Views On Female Behavior
I used to be a scoffer and an atheist. Lately though, my interest has been piqued after looking at all the conflict happening in the world and how it matches some of those ancient writings.
Whether it’s just interpretation or not, literally true or not, l think it’s a good banner to bind all the good people of the world against the threat of islam.
How do they match ancient writings. There will always be a ‘king of the north’ and various ‘kings’ attacking eachother for whatever reason.
I could write a book right now and proclaim in 500 years a ‘king of the west’ will ally with a provocateur and attack religious folk. I’d probably be right.
Yup. You could probably say the same about all kinds of works of fiction. I bet you could find parallels between Lord of the Rings and the current presidential election.
There are some Archetypes in our collective consciousness (if you want to call it that) that just keep coming up. The same kinds of emotions, conflicts, questions.
If that third jewish temple get’s built, that’s directly up biblical prophecy ally. It’s in the works. Could be one of those self fulfilling prophecies. But still, it seems likely to come to fruition.
There’s 2 jewish temples right now? I assume that’s different from a regular synagogue? what bible verse are you referring to?
The bible did accurately predict the empire of Alexander splitting into 4. And the rise of Rome.
I don’t think God would ever be angry at those who question him. In fact, I think he would appreciate such honesty. Why would God want to be feared? Does God have an ego that can be hurt? If the clay suggested a good idea to its creator, why would a wise creator not listen?
But these days, we do not see people who are angry at God so much as people who outright reject his existence. How can God even speak to or help those who question his existence? He can’t. They cut themselves off from him.
Uh, yeah, God loves it when his little wind up toys question him, riiiiight. Have you read the Bible? If you think the Bible is true, then you can’t possibly make that statement in good faith. Even God says he is a jealous God. I guess the golden calf worshipers, among others, were reasoned with, right? No? Ah, the gullibility of believers. Keep praying for that amputated leg to appear, let me know when it happens
I never claimed that I believe the Bible is “true”.
Because people are limited and God is not he sees all possibilities and we do not. In charge of history yet allowing to a certain extent free will to choose evil or good is not an easy thing to do.
Its making the best of the shittiness of the world when humans screwed it up.
It is probably beneficial in the long run that we do not see.
I think that Solomon has solid points. It is all meaningless. I think that’s the point. The only thing Solomon may be wrong about is that this meaninglessness has to lead to some form of despair – instead of welcoming it with open arms.
Think some more enlightened forms of Nihilism or Absurdism. Or even Buddhism. All kinda share this one central thought: All the material pursuits etc. are in vain in the end, everything is temporary. You can either stay attached to those things that you hoped would make you happy … or you realize that they don’t and then you search for that inner peace elsewhere … with God? (or perhaps with the inner self, as others may call it?)
I think many of those schools of thought don’t really disagree about the basics. They just use different words to say the same thing. They all come to the same conclusions.
Perhaps there is only one difference: How they judge these insights.
Some despair at the whims of the universe.
Others embrace them and accept them for what they are.
The point is that without God life is meaningless. With God, you can now begin. Salvation is not a finishing line. It is the starting gun … Gold & silver is what you accomplish thru Christ. Wood & stubble is what you do to glorify your self.
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
“The point is that without God life is meaningless.”
Yeah, that would have been my interpretation as well.
So let’s do it with Him.
Let’s do what?
Live life.
Sure, always trying to find the best way to do that, heh.
I am not sure it’s a “Him” though. As I more or less implied in my comment, I am not sure if God is something like … a person. Although it would make sense that that is what he appears to us like. A shape we can identify with. Jesus, heh.
Anyhow, I kinda prefer “it”.
Not that it matters at all.
John 15:13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
I don’t think anybody disputes this. You could jump on a grenade but not for your enemy. The point of the cross was that Jesus did what no mere man could do. He took it for the bastards that were driving the nails in Him.
The jews watching it happen said get down and we will believe. Only God could stay there. He proved His power walking on water, casting out demons, healing the sick, curing the blind, raising the dead, etc. He had the power to save himself but the will to save us.
Heh. You know, maybe Jesus was somehow special. And maybe he was not and this is stuff we can all do if we become spiritually enlightened. Hard to tell. People do amazing stuff. Think of that monk who burned himself without moving a finger.
Who did he save?
I don’t see how it is a contest. Nor do I blindly believe that Jesus saved whole mankind by sacrificing himself. Okay, maybe he healed a few people, but I bet there are a few people alive today who can do that as well.
Lots of people are suicidal. That’s not an act of love, let alone for an enemy.
Yeah but most of them are cowards and burning themselves is the last thing they would do … much less have anything close to the ability to remain completely still while doing so.
You keep editing out the reason for the sacrifice “… for his friend.”
Suicide is not noble. Disciplined maybe??? (Do you really care if he moved or not?)
Self sacrifice for a friend is.
Self sacrifice for an enemy is divine.
Hm. I don’t know man. I don’t think enlightened people (or Jesus) think in terms of friend and enemy that much.
But yes, I see how you can have that perspective. Why not. I just don’t agree with it being necessarily something that is beyond the capability of a human.
Your life, maybe, since you were either taught to think that at an early age or you have since decided to accept that belief to deal with life and death. God is a creation of man, so if man needs an idea outside himself to deal with life and death, but the idea, God, is a creation of man’s own genius, then what good is God?
The point is, you may state that a life without God is meaningless for yourself, but not as an objective fact: my life is without God, yet my life has meaning. That totally contradicts your statement.
Maybe your life isn’t without God and what others call God and project into the Bible or some supernatural being, you have simply incorporated into your persona.
You’ll have to explain that to the worms …
I have heard it said “It’s ok to be angry with God, He can take it.” the lesson of Job is sadly the fact that any answer God could give him would be lacking in the context of Salvation History, just as Job could not see his suffering in the vastness and the greatness of the universe when God challenged him, he could not know as God knows. In fact he could not know that by his very anguish and anger with God he was proving God right, that even in his most destitute and despairing days he did not curse God, and instead, demanded answers of Him instead, he prayed.
It is a testament to the importance of patience and acceptance of the fact that evil will befall good men, and it will defy reason and, like in the story of Job, sometimes it really will be the devil working against you for no other reason than because he hates you and wants to destroy your soul. But its you who has the final choice in that matter, to give into the despair, defeatism and fatalism the devil wants, or, gird yourself manfully, accept the terrible hand you have been given, ask for God’s forgiveness and assistence, and carry on to become better than you were before as God wants you to.
This is summed up rather well by Catholics mystics who emphasise that falling is easy, but getting back up is the hard part.
Or for the more mundane of disposition, its also represented in the question and answer shown in the first of the modern Batman films.
“Why do we fall, master Bruce?”
“So we can get back up again.”
I should clarify, its not that the answer God could give that would be lacking but Job’s and by extension our ability to understand it. Same reason why you don’t explain thermodynamics to cavemen.
A good speaker blames himself if his audience doesn’t understand his message. First you need to understand your audience, so you can understand how to send them a message. An all powerful God could no doubt cause a human to understand if he so wishes.
Regardless of your view of whether God exists or not, religion played an extremely useful part in people’s lives. It filled a gap that is now filled by profit and pleasure.
Ever wonder why the least broken women are religious (and by that I don’t mean Churchiantiy religious)? Your guess is as good as mine.
On the negative side, religious people tend to sometimes be full of fear, shame, guilt and also a bit on the preachy side. Not sure it’s so much better than a slut, but oh well.
Better that than being a dumb, slutty, lying brat.
To each their own. I like to think everyone has their own value in the grand picture. Ironically, this idea coexists in me together with a profound misanthropy. Oh well.
u think arab women are not cheaters…..trust me beneath the facade they indulge in the same non-sense ,,,,at least they hide their sins better,,,,,, u know to preserve virginity anal sex is what couples do over here
That’s the same with most everybody, especially political people. They just pretend it’s different, but end of the day it’s the same exact behavior and attitude under a different veneer.
Yep. Cultists be cultists, where they use the word ‘God’, ‘Ron Hubbard’, ‘Hitlery’ or ‘Trump’.
My guess, because the bible has specific guidelines for women that are not present outside any type of non religious environment. You wont find any children books on not being a drunken whore. but you do see it in the bible.
Sorry, but no, it is filled today by reality TV and pop politics.
Think why SJWs react the way they react when their beliefs are put to scrutiny.
sorry mate but religion is non-sense,,,,as an ex-muslim I ain’t going back to that peado’s cult where every fucking thing is haram
I’m talking about religion as a whole.
Proverbs – All the life lessons you need.
Job and Solomon sound like a couple of normal dudes. Who doesn’t think as they?
You could interpret Ecclesiastes’ message to mean that “social progress” can’t happen because human nature doesn’t change, at least not through politics.
And that insight destroys the childish utopianism of the social-justice ideology. We have inequality, hierarchy and patriarchy because of the obdurate nature of things, not because some men have power and make arbitrary rules.
Well, you can expand that argument for human nature to include childish utopianism. And then you end up with: Human nature doesn’t change, but human nature always tries to. 😀
When I read the book of Ecclesiastes, I interpreted the “eat, drink, and enjoy life” line as meaning “don’t take life too seriously.” The Bible is very consistent about admonishing foolish, drunken behavior. Simply put, this line should be read as, “Chill out. Have a beer every once in while” instead of “Go out and party your ass off!”
Solomon was considered to be the wisest man to ever grace the Earth (per the Bible). With this wisdom, he understood that a man who seeks wisdom, while burdened with the truth about humanity and the world around us, will live a far better life than a foolish man who wanders aimlessly jumping from one thrill to the next. Think about most people for a second. Do you think, even with their ignorance of the truth, that their lives are nearly as fulfilling as someone who has swallowed the red pill, someone who understands that all women, including his own mother, are the same?
Solomon understood his limitations as a human being. Despite being one of the most iconic figures in Christianity, Solomon will likely be forgotten over time. Most of us won’t be remembered a century from now. Only a select few 1,000 years from now. Even fewer 10,000 years from now. And I doubt that anyone, unless immortalized and their accomplishments fossilized on some cave drawing, will be remembered 100,000 years from now. Human nature is cyclical. We make the same mistakes. Men are natural rulers. Women will always use their vaginas to gain safety and security. Men will continue to be lured and enraptured by said vaginas. And wars will naturally occur. Solomon understood this. He understood that memories of him would fade and even be twisted or misinterpreted. So drink a beer, enjoy the struggle, and be happy.
Hell, at this point, I don’t think I’d be remembered 5 seconds after my death. Heh. Actually, that thought fills me with peace.
Haha. Maybe you’ll become famous and be remembered for a few decades. One can only hope.
Not trying to be cynic or anything but … what for? Who gives a damn. Certainly not me after I’m dead.
Eh, if I shitlord enough throughout my life and gain some notoriety, it’d be nice to know that a photo of my grin will trigger some pudgy, short-haired SJW cunt. That’s pretty much it. Everyone else could forget for all I care.
Seems still a little pointless. Remember, you will be dead, so you won’t be around to find joy in it.
Oh I know. It’s not something I’m too concerned with. Just funny to think about.
Tsss… these hedonistic pleasures will remain forever a mystery to me.
Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
At least the bad parts …
Still, you state the dumbest shit every time you comment within this forum.
Eat my nuts.
I agree bro
The internet never forgets Tom. Thou art an immortal now
How naive. Hard drives rust, forums die out and the internet is slowly succumbing to censoritis.
Akashik memory hard drives never fail. Ever
Have you read those records? If not, can you prove they exist?
No, but Edward Cayce did and they still exist in the hall of records under the sphinx
I would also point out it’s quite a large book to have read the whole thing
I read somewhere that those records are not ordinary books and basically just give you a kind of reflection of yourself. Of the stuff that you expect to find in there.
Probably more of a big kindle download than a regular hardback
Cayce was a CIA shill
Well, the above comment was in jest, but I wasn’t aware he had anything to do with intelligence – is this proven? If so it must have been a fore-runner agency as the CIA was created after he died
Kind of like the book in the martial arts movie “Circle of Iron”?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0uf7HzJzTn4
Amazing.
No, this is not proven, just speculation and theory.
Sorry, I meant the FBI. Was he not the one who was tasked with performing experiments with the bureau?
I don’t think so. He was some kind of spiritualist who claimed to be in contact with a different planes of reality or something.
Wikipedia: “Edgar Cayce was an American Christian mystic who answered questions on subjects as varied as healing, reincarnation, wars, Atlantis, and future events while in a trance.”
Either way I wasn’t suggesting he should be taken seriously
I would rather live a dejected life with the red-pill than live under false happiness of the blue -pill,,,,in the OTHER WORDS ,,give me sadness okay BUT NOT LIES
Fame is fleeting and overrated; even with those whose fame we know of, for the most part we know only facts, assuming even those are correct. The real essence of the person, their true feelings, memories and motivations are known only to them.
Solomon was right, all is forgotten by later generations. Reminds me of a comment Charlton Heston’s character (Planet of the Apes) said to a fellow astronaut when they landed centuries after leaving Earth: “There’s a lifesize bronze statue of you standing somewhere out there. Although it’s probably turned green by now and no-one can read the name plate”.
I think I prefer gods like Odin, Thor and Fudo Myoo instead. They don’t screw you over just to win a petty bet with some horny dude carrying a pitchfork.
No country for old men, the book and movie, is also cut from the same cloth as Ecclesiastes.
“I always figured when I got older, God would sorta come inta my life somehow. And he didn’t. I don’t blame him….”
“Whatcha got ain’t nothin new. This country’s hard on people, you can’t stop what’s coming, it ain’t all waiting on you. That’s vanity.”
I like quotes like these. Even if you live a good life or a wise life, you will still feel in the end like it didn’t change anything. Your ambitions are part of the universal human condition and don’t make you “special”. Your achievements won’t make nearly as much of a mark as you’d hoped when you were pursuing them. It’s all vanity. But that vanity keeps us pushing forward regardless.
Then there’s the viewpoint that you will be rewarded for good behavior and punished for bad behavior. Kiss up to the teacher and you’ll get good grades. Play rough and you’ll get a timeout. This isn’t nearly as inspiring and it doesn’t ring true. We know bad things happen to good people and vice versa. So we need to double down and insist that things will all balance out in the afterlife? It’s wishful thinking, but I wouldn’t count on it.
Btw, completely unrelated, but:
I swear I feel like shooting that cunt.
The book of proverbs is one my favorite. The bible warns men about women, throughout it.
The Book Of Ecclesiastes is one of my favourites.
As the old saying goes: ‘ignorance is bliss’, i understand this now. Gaining knowledge about the nature of things increases our understanding. Our understanding then gives us greater discernment. Discernment shows us clearly what is right and true, against what is wrong and false. Once you’ve gained discernment you begin to perceive things in their true light, thus you begin to see just how far from the truth we are as a society, and just how foolish people can be.
Foolish people dig their own graves and then congratulate themselves on a job well done, there’s no helping these people; they don’t want the truth, they prefer their own lies.
I confess I did not understand those books well, when I read them as an Atheist. It just seemed to enforce my Nihilist position. God seemed as pure Wrath, and Oblivious to human suffering.
Since I became Catholic, with sound doctrine and the light of the Church Fathers, they make much more sense.
The Book of Job is a lesson on humbleness. We are all creatures after all. We came to a world that we barely understand, we can only see a portion of it, and we are finite, time will consume our lives here. How is it possible for us to question God? It is like a dog suffering on the veterinarian and questioning why such pain exists. We are utterly incapable of understanding the meaning of the universe, because we did not create it. And that is Gods answer to Job, “Where were you when I created everything?”. You can only see meaning when you see the whole picture.
Ecclesiastes is my favorite. If God does not exist, life has no meaning. Period. You can try to find meaning in your pleasures, deeds, works, virtues, stoicism, in anything. You will not find meaning. You will only find questions. And in the same Book Solomon always answers, “Everything is meaningless, Except Serving God”.
God doesn’t necessarily solve the meaning problem even it if does exist. Traditional theists just project their wish list onto a god for basically selfish reasons.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1480c1c4a2024393bacaf77ef3955cbe5019288d62910b46a1235c71242abdd4.gif
So Men like the Apostles, gave their lives, in excruciating painful ways, just to satisfy some selfish behavior. All the early Christians Martyrs were just selfish assholes that wanted to die at the mouth of lions and other beasts, selfishly wanted to be burned alive.
St Francis of Assisi, was a selfish bastard that denied himself every pleasure that exists just to prove a selfish point.
St Augustine, another selfish guy who after experiencing, who after learning a lot of philosophy just found a way to justify not doing anything he liked before and living a self denying life.
Grow up. Go study. Be humble.
Stop trying to justify your egoism by saying everyone is as egocentric as yourself.
I’d argue that the point of Job was missed.
Job and all his buddies were trying to tie Job’s material circumstances to his actions, as if God was acting in response to something Job did, or should be doing.
The reason God went all “what do you know?” is because of the inherent arrogance behind this mentality, that God’s actions are inherently tied to the actions of people, for good or bad.
God’s point is that both good and bad things can happen in your life which have nothing to do with anything you’ve done, and that these things are not supposed to be distractions from the true purpose in life – having relationship with God.
When Job wanted to die, he was placing his own sorrow and remorse before his relationship with God, and presuming what God should have done instead of let him suffer. If you look at Job’s specific confession, note what he’s making peace with, as it’s not the circumstances, but not presuming to understand God’s motivation.
Then Job answered the Lord and said:
“I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’
“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”
And so it was, after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. – Job 42:1-7 (NKJV)
God was pleased because Job stopped presuming to know what and why God should be doing anything, because the long-term effects of an action do not occur in a vacuum.
The secular world can see this from time to time, like the movie “Sliding Doors” where the movie follows two possible outcomes based on whether the main character actually made the train or not. Another pop culture reference would be the episode “Parallels” from ST:TNG where Worf travels between parallel universes which differ in various ways, some superficial, and some more significant.
To bring this back to Christianity, if God were actually bound by the actions of people, then things like the “Prosperity Doctrines” would be the truth as opposed to heresy. The theology (in short) teaches that you can turn God into a sort of vending machine of blessings based on how you act and behave. If you do X, God will do Y. It ties God’s actions to people’s, which means that God isn’t actually all-powerful, but is subservient to the actions of God’s creations.
People like Joel Osteen are the modern equivalent of Job’s friends.
God was using Job to demonstrate that God’s actions, and even what God permits other less-sovereign agents to do, is based entirely on what God chooses, and that our personal ability to have a relationship with God is entirely separate from our material circumstances. Whether in good times or bad, we can have relationship with God, but that relationship does not guarantee that everything will be “good” materially.
God’s response to Job and his friends is not unlike that of a teenager’s petulant outburst to a parent “you don’t control me!”
The difference is that, being God, it’s not actually petulance, but a reminder of God’s sovereignty over creation.
This absolutely 1000% correct. The flaws of job are the same doctrines spouted by the demonic snakes osteen, creflo dollars, Joyce Meyers and pat graham
Watch WESTWORLD guys. Fucking awasome show. Touches many good topics with Anthony Hopkins playing there too. Artifical Intelligence, consciousness, free will, human nature, us playing gods etc I really enjoy it!
“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’”
One thing I noted from Ridley Scott’s Exodus was the description of Israel as ‘one who struggles with God’ or something like that. The following, almost anti-semitic / self-critical explanation is from a jewish website and describes the experience Jacob/Israel:
“Jacob was the third patriarch, grandson of Abraham the journeyer and son of Isaac the would-be sacrifice. He began his career as a wily trickster, strategically obtaining for himself his brother’s birthright, after following his mother’s orders in deceiving his blind old father Isaac. His name itself meant heel or crooked.
But touched – and partially crippled – by an angel, he emerges as the archetypal Jewish ancestor. Even flawed, he continues on to face and wrestle with God and man. Jacob, more than any other figure, represents the character of our people.
Like his grandfather before him, Jacob received a new name from God, symbolizing a transformation. “No more shall you be called Jacob, but Israel, ” declared the angel, “for you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
…..
This quality of confrontation and engagement with God, as opposed to pure submission, remains a distinguishing characteristic of Judaism.”
The above fascinates me. Islam seems to be all about submission to the will of God. Judaism as implied in the above often seems to be about something rather more complex, as implied in the idea of struggle. What does it mean to have ‘prevailed’ after all? Also where does Christianity fit into all this. Does it stand squarely in the middle, or gravitate towards one or other of the two?
At what point will someone bring Jung into this. He may have been a Christian but as far as I remember he says some quite troubling things with regard to the above. I have only read a bit of an Answer to Job but I believe it presents a somewhat controversial picture of the God of the bible
We usually have a few experts on Jung here
Jung was an existentialist, gnostic. He is as “Christian” as much as lady Gaga or Kanye west are catholic
yes, but he engages with Christianity, albeit from the perspective of his own meditations on spirituality; and this reflects his own Christian background. I wouldn’t deny that there are some aspects of his thought that sit very uncomfortably with Christianity
What a great opportunity to pause and think a bit. Your closing comments cause me to consider that “justice” is not universally agreed upon nor is the idea that God guarantees an easy life.
My bedrock belief is that “with or without” we are faithful or not. God does not give monetary blessings as a rule. I see the point as we follow God in a world that is often “unfair” and cruel in order to endure and learn contentment within. Admittedly, I am not good at it.
Same here. But that does not mean I won’t try to walk the path Yahuah has set for us.
Excellent write up. I’ve always considered Ecclesiastes my “favorite” book in the Bible, even though it can be a downer.
For comparison, there is a South Park episode where Kyle’s father tells him the story of Job and Kyle responds with, “What the fuck?! That’s a terrible story! That poor guy!”
you should have followed eccl 8: 15 with
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Ecc 12:14
Ecclesiastes is one of my favorite books in the Bible, especially considering the modern times. THe only goals of people are to seek as much pleasure, fame and money they can get their hands on. I am no different because the desires of my human heart are for the same things, however going back to Ecclesiastes helps to push away these desires.
For someone who had it all, money, fame, power, women, at the end of the day he Solomon is saying that all is vanity and pretty much meaningless. Without the God given inner peace you could gain the whole world yet it would do nothing to satisfy in the long run.
As someone who struggles daily with somehow trying to balance worldly desires and spiritual desires, I can say it is not easy.
Testing new sign in. Seems to work. I’ll join discussions in the future.
Bye.
Christianity frustrates me. The bickering and lack of unity between Christians is astounding. It seems to be the ones who agree in Christian Unity are the modern day churchianity bollocks, who are all happy clappy and willingly bringing in hordes of illegal immigrants into Europe and even facilitating it. The traditional Christians appear to state that you have to belong to their tradition, so Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox. All other traditions are heresy, apart from theirs alone. Then not only that, but you have to belong to a certain factor within the tradition. Even Catholicism has it’s splinter groups, those who accept the Pope is the Pope, those who oppose the Pope, traditionalists, those who follow the current order of mass, then also those who think that the Pope is not really the Pope…. What the fuck? I give up, I really do. Spent 12 – 18 months trying to find a tradition for me to align with. But the exclusivity, against those in the other traditions, even if they’re conservative just puts me off completely. I give up.
Forget the churches: they’re just man-made organisations and they’re all off-beam, which is why they’re arguing with each other. In the gospels, you don’t see Jesus putting on funny costumes like clergy do, nor do you see him telling others to do so. You don’t see him going around putting up buildings to meet in on a Sunday, nor does he tell anyone to do that. As for the traditions of the churches, what does he say about the traditions of men?
You don’t need to join one of these organisations to follow Christ — all you need is a Bible and a desire to know him.
I remain open minded. Meanwhile, I’m exploring the pagan roots of Europe.
Plus the Bible predicts the times we live in.
Youtube search ‘Kent Hovind – Creation Seminars’
Watch all 8, when you can find the time.
Take the final red pill.
I read this and think what a ridiculous religion! I wonder if people actually live in this world or are people under the delusions of mass brainwashing.
Fact: People are born.
Fact: People suffer.
Fact: People die.
Some people have wonderful lives. Some people have horrible lives. Most people have a mix of both.
The notion that the invisible man needs to save you from yourself and needs to tell you how to act and think or you face eternal hell fire is an immoral ideology.
Do you know what a rational religion looks like?
Murder is bad. This is the reason why murder is bad.
Stealing is bad. This is the reason why stealing is bad.
Sexual immorality is bad. This is the reason why … is bad.
And the same thing for what is good.
With the story of Job, God sounds like a real dick. Who wants to be a part of this immoral and crazy racket?